Focus on the Family Broadcast

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Philip Yancey: And the gospel truly sounded like good news to realize that God cares about me, that God loves me, that I can connect with the God of the universe, the God who created this planet.

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John Fuller: That’s Philip Yancey with a really important reminder that the gospel is truly good news to those who are hurting. Philip joins us again today on Focus on the Family and your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, last time we shared a powerful conversation. I was able to record with Philip Yancey. If you missed part one, make sure to get the CD or download or find the video on YouTube. Uh, I’m thankful for Philip’s insights on how we present the good news to a watching world. In the book of Matthew in the Bible, Jesus told his followers, “Let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your father who is in heaven.” That’s right out of Matthew 5:16. If you’re a believer, you’re called to be a faithful witness to the hope you found in Christ. And today, Philip will offer you help as you seek to share God’s love in a winsome way.

John: And as we mentioned last time, Philip’s book that, uh, is the foundation for the conversation is called Vanishing Grace: Whatever Happened to the Good News? Philip has a fascinating perspective. He spent years researching and writing about how Christians can be salt and light and live authentically and I do hope, uh, that you’ll get in touch with us for a copy of this great book. Call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And Jim, here’s how you began part two of your conversation with Philip Yancey.

Jim: Philip, it’s great to have you back for day two.

Philip: Thank you. It’s a pleasure.

Jim: (laughs) It’s a great conversation. I’m gonna go deep quickly-

Philip: Hm.

Jim: … but, um, eh, you know, pain often, um, draws us toward God.

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It, it seems, again, counterintuitive.

Philip: It does.

Jim: Why would the Lord use suffering? But certainly Paul and others talked about that, what, what suffering produces.

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Hope, faith, et cetera. And, you know, e- y- y- for me, it’s been my life’s experience as a little boy who went through a lot of trauma. Orphaned at a young age into foster care. Um, someone will ask me occasionally, you know, “If you had to go through all that again and be where you’re at with the Lord, would you do it again?” I, absolutely.

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: So in that context, a- address that ’cause you’ve written a lot about it.

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: Suffering leading to a deeper relationship with God. Does it have to be that way, Philip?

Philip: (laughing) Good question. Uh, I think of a phrase from C.S. Lewis and I’m always very hesitant to ever disagree with anything C.S. Lewis says. (laughs)

Jim: Yes.

Philip: But he used a phrase called pain, the megaphone of God.

Jim: Hm.

Philip: He said, “God whispers to us in our good times but he shouts to us in our bad times.” And I understand what he’s saying but I would phrase it a little differently because when I hear that, megaphone of God, I think of a football coach on the sideline yelling at people. “Do 50 pushups. Go run five miles.” You know?

Jim: (laughs) I had that coach.

Philip: Yeah, right. (laughing) And I, I don’t see God up there saying, “Oh, I’m, I’m gonna teach Jim a lesson. I’m gonna make them suffer and then they’ll turn to me.” I, I just don’t see that. I can, we can talk about why, but I would just change that phrase a little bit and say that pain is, is the hearing aid. Actually, it’s something we can control. We can either turn away from God, “Well, if it’s a God like that, I’ll never trust in that kind of God again.” Or we can turn up the volume and listen. “What could I learn from this experience?” Which is what you did.

Jim: You know, Philip, one of the, the big debates that we have, um, you know, those that excel in the material universe, right?

Philip: Hm.

Jim: Um, you can be in conversations and I think you were even in a book club that had this-

Philip: Right.

Jim: … kind of diversity in it, if I could call it that. But people that are accomplished, they may go to the Ivy League. Um, I met a man who, uh, is the chair of religion and philosophy at a university. He had me come speak there. He talked about being a Christian at one time, but he went to Princeton Divinity School, and he said-

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … “I read too much, and I lost my faith.”

Philip: (laughs)

Jim: And I think in that context, uh, you know, how, how do we speak in a world that trusts so much in the material world and when it comes to faith, it’s like, “Well, that’s beyond what I wanna deal with. I don’t know about those things and frankly right now I don’t care about those things.” That seems to be one of the battles because I’m sure, like your book club, they’re great people there. They just don’t know the Lord, don’t really have an interest, seemingly.

Philip: Mm-hmm. I would get in conversations with people in my book club and ask them, “Okay, you’re a member of Amnesty International. You care about human rights. Why, why do you care about human rights?” “Well, because everybody does.” I said, “A- actually, everybody doesn’t. There are dictators in the world who don’t care about human rights. Um, the reason I care about human rights is because I believe everybody was created in the image of God and that’s foundational. (laughs) I can’t stop that. Why do you care about the environment?” “Well, because the, the Earth is in trouble.” I said, “Okay, that’s true and I care about the environment because I believe God created the Earth. It’s part of his artistry.” And it exposes sometimes people just have these assumptions of what’s good and what’s not good. And as you know, you’ve traveled the world, not everybody shares those assumptions.

Jim: Yep.

Philip: We have to have a basis for them. We have to have a reason and if you peel back Western civilization, the things that we value, human rights and education and art and beauty and those things, they came out of the church. They came out of Christians saying, “These are what God is like, so therefore as sub-creators, we’re going to demonstrate that.”

Jim: Right. I mean, these are the attributes-

Philip: Mm.

Jim: … that we see in the character of God.

Philip: Right.

Jim: Right? At least how it’s recorded in the scripture.

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: And I think that’s pretty accurate. You, you spent years rediscovering, as you said in the book, uh, the good news, the s- you know, the good news of Christ. Describe what happened and wh- what did that journey entail to rediscover?

Philip: Well, I grew up in a, (laughs) a church that, uh, was very biblical, they thought. But they came away with some different conclusions than, that I had to work through later. This was in the south, in Atlanta area, back when the civil rights movement was just getting underway, and my church was racist. We actually had these cards and if a person of color tried to enter the church, they would give them this card that said basically, “We know you’re not a true worshiper of God. You’re just a troublemaker. You’re not welcome here. You’re not allowed here.”

Jim: Wow.

Philip: “But if you wanna know more about Jesus, call this number.” (laughs) You know?

Jim: That was in your lifetime.

Philip: That was in my lifetime.

Jim: That was when you were a kid.

Philip: That’s absolutely true.

Jim: Wow.

Philip: It was, would’ve been in the late 1950s.

Jim: That seems like something that might’ve occurred a century or two ago.

Philip: Well, it was the last century. (laughs) But it was 1950-ish. ’59 or so. Yeah. When I realized what the, what the church had taught me about racism was wrong, that was a crisis of faith for me because I thought, “Well, if they’re wrong about race, maybe they’re wrong about the Bible. Maybe they’re wrong about Jesus.” And it, it forced me to go and investigate for myself and for a while there, I was deconstructing my faith. Can’t believe that anymore. Can’t believe this anymore. And, and, fortunately, just as a, as a writer, I’ve been able over the years to pick up these things one by one. The Jesus I never knew. What is Jesus? Prayer, does it work? What is grace? I didn’t feel much grace growing up, what is it? And, and spend my life kind of going to the Bible, going to people I trust and, and reconstructing my faith.

Jim: Yeah. And, you know, I think one of the difficulties, Philip, is we often, um… We’re trying to project perfection when we’re imperfect.

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: Even in this life as Christians. I remember talking to one, uh, uh, naysayer and he said, “Well, you’re just a bunch of hypocrites.” And I said, “Actually, you’re right.”

Philip: (laughs)

Jim: Because we can’t live it perfectly.

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, we, we’re gonna have blind spots and then we’re gonna have spots we know we’re not doing well in spiritually, and we’re not living it out the way we need to. It’s called the sanctification process, you know.

Philip: Mm.

Jim: We’re not gonna be the same, hopefully, 20 years from now that we are today. We’re gonna be better, deeper in Christ, living it better. And he, he seemed to appreciate that and that’s one of the problems, is we’re, we’re, you know, we try to be perfect in the sight of people rather than broken.

Philip: Yeah. I love that line. I mean, wh- I am a hypocrite. You’re absolutely right.

Jim: (laughs)

Philip: And back to a phrase we mentioned earlier, holier than thou.

Jim: Right. That’s the same thing.

Philip: Th- there’s really only one standard and we’re-

Jim: (laughs)

Philip: … less holy than thou (laughs) by not pointing (laughs) to the heavens. Um, that’s our standard and Jesus said, “Be perfect.” And his disciples said, “Nobody could do that.” And that’s the point. Yeah, you’re right. So do you have a fallback? Here’s the fallback. There’s grace and there’s forgiveness.

Jim: Right.

Philip: Um, because none of us can make it on our own merits.

Jim: And by the way, that’s what makes it the good news.

Philip: (laughing) Yeah, exactly.

Jim: You don’t have to earn it.

Philip: Exactly.

Jim: And it’s like we flip it on its ear, and we tell people, “Ah, you gotta be good. You gotta behave right and then you get it.” And that’s not what Jesus said. You, you made a trip to Kazakhstan. You may be the only other person I know. I visited Kazakhstan as well-

Philip: All right.

Jim: … so the two of us. I was more like ’93 for me but, uh, that same area. Wh- what happened to you that reminded you that the gospel is the good news?

Philip: Mm. I went to speak to a group of people who are staff members and volunteers for Cru International. It used to be ca- Campus Crusade.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: And, uh, these were all Christians. Uh, they were all Christians, obviously, and they were, had all been raised before there was any lively church in Kazakhstan. They were raised under rigid communism. They were taught, uh, “There’s nothing beyond this life. There is no God. Atheism. And if you b- if you believe in God, you’re an, a fool and you’ll also be penalized in our society. You can’t go to c- university. You’re gonna be cut out.”

Jim: That’s straight out of scripture, by the way-

Philip: (laughs)

Jim: … where they say, “You’re gonna be called a fool-”

Philip: That’s right. That’s right.

Jim: “… for Christ’s sake.” (laughs)

Philip: So I would say, “Well, tell me your story. What happened? Now you’re working for Cru, so what happened?” And it’s almost like they had memorized (laughs) a script ’cause everyone told the same story. They said, “Well, we, we were true believers in communism and yet we looked around us and we found out that we were miserable, and it wasn’t true, and our parents were alcoholics, and my father would beat us, and we were, uh, it, this is a cold place, and we had no reason to live. And then somebody came up to us on a university campus and said, ‘Did you know that God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life?’”

Jim: Oh.

Philip: I mean, we, we’ve all heard the Four Spiritual Laws in the United States and you just kinda say, “Oh, yeah. Okay. Here’s a little formula for you.” They had never heard this stuff.

Jim: Right? It was new.

Philip: And they would stop and say-

Jim: (laughs)

Philip: … “G- Go- There, there is a God? God loves me?” “Would you like to hear more?” “Yeah, I’s like to hear more.” And I heard this again and again. I mean, it became almost a joke. I, I, uh, I knew e- exactly what they were gonna say next, but these were people I got to know and, and trust and they weren’t using a script. They were just telling what happened. “I grew up under this regime. I found out it was wrong. And the gospel truly sounded like good news, to realize that God cares about me, that God loves me, that I can connect with the God of the universe, the God who created this planet.”

Jim: Yeah. You know, Philip, uh, in the book you discovered three types. I think it was a s- a comment that a friend of yours made to you, but you discovered three types of Christians that outsiders respect the most.

Philip: Mm. A lot of outsiders don’t like many Christians, but there are three categories of people who, they’re a little more open to who are effective. Artists, pilgrims, and activists. Let’s start with activists. If I care about the environment, if I care about civil rights, if I care about some of these things, and I do it because of my Christian convictions, then somebody wh- else who cares about those things has to stop and think, “Well, w- why do I care about these things?” (laughs) You know? I am, I am representing what God cares about by my activism. So, again, go back to the civil rights movement. Most of them, it was a moral crusade and most of the people leading it were clergy men, from John Lewis to Martin Luther King, Jr., Ralph Abernathy. You know, the, the church led that.

Jim: Right, yeah.

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: Abolitionists-

Philip: Right.

Jim: … were predominately Christian.

Philip: Same thing. Um, artists, I, I like to lecture the church on, “You gotta pay attention to these artists. They’re hard to work with.” You know, they-

Jim: (laughs) Creative people.

Philip: They look fu- yeah. They look funny and they dress funny and, and they’re, they’re, they don’t do well on committees. (laughs) But artists can get across profound eternal truths better than pastors-

Jim: Right.

Philip: … better than theologians, because they sneak up in ways that, that go directly to the heart and I, I told some story of artists who do that. Well, uh, one, one story I’ll mention ’cause we’re here in Colorado, one of the great artists e- of our day is a man named Mako Fujimura. Japanese.

Jim: He’s an artist?

Philip: Japanese American. He’s an artist. Incredibly talented. Once he was, he was, uh, called to do the White House Christmas card. I mean, he’s, he’s up at that level. But he does abstract e- expressionism in a, in an old Japanese form and we had the 20th anniversary of Columbine just down the road here-

Jim: Right.

Philip: … uh, the shootings that, that, uh, killed a whole bunch of people and kind of started the whole awareness of mass shootings-

Jim: S- school shootings.

Philip: … in, in the United States, and school shootings. The 20th anniversary was a sober event and Mako came as an artist and he, he showed us this craft called kintsugi. It’s a Japanese word where they take these old pottery things that are broken into… like a bowl that’s broken into four or five pieces, and they glue them back together using solid gold as the seams. And they create these beautiful things out of what had been thrown away-

Jim: Mm.

Philip: … that, picked out of a trash can. And he, he gave that as an illustration for the terrible tragedy at, at Columbine and yet out of that, these beautiful things had happened and what people had feared is kind of a somber message turned into a, almost a celebration that, that redemption can come even out of th- uh, the pain that… like, like Columbine. We heard from survivors. We heard from families. We heard from the principals. And art can do that. Art can express something that other people can’t.

Jim: Well and grab the heart.

Philip: Absolutely. And then the last category of pilgrims, and we’ve been talking about that, Jim, that, uh, we don’t, we don’t win people by saying, “I’ve got something, and you don’t. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.” (laughs) That’s not how to do it.

Jim: Hopefully.

Philip: Yeah. (laughing)

Jim: Some people do. (laughs)

Philip: We win people by saying, “I’m just like you and I found something that satisfied deeply in my soul-”

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: “… a- and, and if you have ever experienced anything like this, if you ever experience confusion, pain, whatever, I, I know a place to go. I know the gospel is really good news. Give it a try.” And if you start with that, “I’ve got something, and you don’t. I’m gonna help you-”

Jim: (laughs)

Philip: … that usually doesn’t work.

Jim: So true.

Philip: But if you start, “I’m just like you. I know what you’re going through and here’s something that I found that really helped me.”

Jim: You know, in, in that context, what I’ve seen interacting with people that would oppose a Christian worldview, is that when you meet with them, talk with them, and they realize you’re, you’re not the caricature of what, what they created. You know that you, you can laugh with them, you can simply relate with them.

Philip: Mm.

Jim: There is something in there that when people sincerely feel that you care about them, I would say love them, it’s almost in our spiritual DNA. We can’t resist that even as a crusty human being. Something begins to crack in your soul-

Philip: Mm.

Jim: … which I think is what the, how we cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

Philip: Mm.

Jim: Th- going back to yesterday’s comment that you don’t have to go out of your way to be hated and then wear it as a badge, try this. Go and, out of your way to look for that kind of, uh, loving grace that actually cracks that crusty soul and then can allow the Holy Spirit-

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: … to do that great work in someone’s heart. Be a shock to people.

Philip: Mm-hmm.

Jim: “Wow, I didn’t expect Christians to behave that way.”

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: “I didn’t expect a Christian to say that God loved me.” Whatever it might be.

Philip: Right.

Jim: Uh, you have, in fact, uh, in the book you have a story of a skeptic. I think her name was Gina Welsh and she began visiting a church and described an outsider’s point of view. What was her story?

Philip: Yeah, (laughs) she was, uh, an Ivy League, um, person, PhD, who as a sociology experiment started going to Thomas Road Baptist Church where Jerry Falwell, Sr., at the time was pastor. And she was just trying to figure out what are these evangelicals and maybe write a thesis about it. (laughs) And to her surprise, she found that she was, she was just cared for. She, uh, you know, the word compassion, Jim, compassio, comes from to feel with. And she found that people had compassion toward her, that she would look forward, “Oh, I’m going to go on, on Sunday. I’m gonna be in that Sunday school group again and they know some of what I’ve been going through and they care and, and they draw it out.” So, uh, she doesn’t talk about, “I be- I became a Christian because of this experience,” but she, she talks about the, the way her perspective changed. She thought these were gonna be these, you know, these right-wing, uptight hillbilly types, you know? (laughs)

Jim: Right.

Philip: And instead she found, “No, they’re human beings much like me and they care about me, and they have a community that they can-”

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: “… bring their honest struggles to every week.” It was a, it was a shock for her and, um, I think we need much more of that kind of cross fertilization from both directions.

Jim: Right.

Philip: And in her direction it was the liberal who had these preconceptions about what an evangelical was and, and we need our own perspectives changed, as you’ve talked about-

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: … in, in expanding-

Jim: Well, and the reality is if she lands in a different church, she might’ve had those presuppositions reinforced, right?

Philip: (laughs) You’re, you’re absolutely right.

Jim: I mean truly. Absolutely.

Philip: You’re right.

Jim: I mean, it really came down to the leadership of that particular church and, and what they were expressing. What the people expressed. You know, in that regard, Philip, um, this caught my attention years ago when I stepped into the role of president of Focus, but, um, it dawned on me. We have this, I think, m- uh, uh, nonessential battle going between what I call orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

Philip: Mm.

Jim: So the orthodoxy is speaking God’s truth and, you know, we’re a communications ministry so we, that’s what we do.

Philip: Right.

Jim: We try to express God’s truth and have programs like this one to talk about the love of God as well. But y- you know, his grace, his truth. The whole theme of what we’ve talked about. And then there’s orthopraxy which is the doing of the word and I think, a- at least in Western culture, maybe that’s one of the great failures from early Christianity, that we are wonderful at speaking truth but had become a bit lazy, if I could use that word, at expressing the orthopraxy of the gospel. Actually rolling up your sleeves, getting involved. One of the things that we started here was a foster/adoption program.

Philip: Mm.

Jim: Um, uh, it c- it was born out of my heart, you know, being a foster child. Um, I always felt like if the church were on the right things, there shouldn’t be 100,000 kids in the foster care system waiting for adoption.

Philip: Right.

Jim: And it’s a tough road, believe me.

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: I f- uh, we have fostered 15 children.

Philip: Hm.

Jim: It’s not an easy task and not everybody’s cut out for it. I get that. But if you look at 100,000 kids out of the 400,000 that are in the foster care program and there’s 300, over 300,000 churches, that’s one child every three churches.

Philip: Mm.

Jim: Can we get that done?

Philip: (laughs)

Jim: I mean and talk about changing the brand of Christianity in America.

Philip: Right.

Jim: You know, I’d love to see that New York Times headline that says, “Christian church wipes out waiting foster care adoption list.”

Philip: (laughs)

Jim: Wouldn’t that change things?

Philip:  It would. There’s a theologian from Croatia. You may know the name, Miroslav Volf.

Jim: I’ve, I’ve met him.

Philip: Have you? Okay.

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: I think he teaches at Yale now.

Jim: Yep.

Philip: And he said, um, h- he said, “As civilization changes and grows less and less friendly to Christianity, we have to change our approach.” Uh, and I’m kind of putting words in his mouth here, but h- he said, “In the old days, I mean, Billy Graham could go to any stadium in the United States, fill that stadium with people, and he’d stand up there and say, ‘The Bible says…’ and, and people would come forward and respond.”

Jim: Right.

Philip: He said you tr- try that now, there are very few evangelist preachers who could fill a stadium anywhere in the United States. And if you stand up and say, “The Bible says…” people will say, “Well, so what? I don’t believe the Bible.” You know? “The Bhagavad Gita says something else. Who knows what’s true?” Society has changed that much in our lifetimes. So he said, “The best way I know to get across the gospel,” is what he calls, “hands to heart to head.” You reach out with your hands, acts of mercy. Exactly what you’re saying.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: Foster program, feeding the hungry, responding in a refugee crisis like Afghanistan was. Hands, you reach out with acts of mercy. That affects people’s hearts. “Why do you do this? Why do you care about me?” “Oh, well here’s why.” And finally you get to the head. We used to start with the head. “Here’s what you should believe.”

Jim: Right. (laughs)

Philip: But things have changed. Reach out with your hands first. It affects the heart and then they’re open to that head knowledge.

Jim: So true. I- in the book you mentioned a British skeptic, Matthew Parris, who pointed out the benefits of Christian evangelism in South Africa. I mean, again, he wasn’t a Christian but when he looked at it, what did he see?

Philip: Yeah, he, he grew up in South Africa. I think he might’ve been a, a missionary’s kid, but he strayed far from the faith and calls himself an atheist now. But in, it was in the Guardian newspaper. He wrote an article and said, “I gotta admit that aid programs alone don’t solve the problems in Africa.” Uh, people who just kinda toss bags of rice out of a helicopter or something, you know? (laughs) Uh, that the Christians who are there really care and they express that care, so with their own hands, they hand out bowls of rice and that’s such a different thing than, say, the UN, you know, just coming in and, and doing a job ju- to distribute food. And he, he said, uh, “It’s not enough to convert me but I gotta say there’s a huge difference in someone reaching out with their hands with acts of mercy. It’s, uh, it’s just, it’s different.”

Jim: Well, and the idea, I think it explained that faith has made an impact. It’s what makes the biggest impact in Africa.

Philip: Boy, that’s true. Um, so many of those countries-

Jim: And that’s a non-believer saying that.

Philip: (laughs) That’s a non-believer saying that. And the statistic I’ve heard, Jim, is that, uh, today, this day, while we’re sitting here, 30,000 people will become Christians in Africa. Today.

Jim: Unlike in America.

Philip: Happens every day. (laughing)

Jim: And so I mean, that’s the difference, right?

Philip: Yeah.

Jim: It seems like the spirit is at work in especially Third World countries.

Philip: Yeah. I, um, was asked to speak one time. It was probably when the century changed, the year 2000. And so I was speaking at this place, and I went back and kind of reviewed church history to see what had happened in the last 2000 years and of course the movement started in the Middle East, but-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Philip: … most of the places that Paul visited and wrote his letters to, there’re no churches left there. They’re all bulldozed there in Turkey.

Jim: Right.

Philip: They’re in Muslim control or i- th- they’re all gone. And then it, and then it went to Europe and, and was there for about a thousand years. And then things started changing and then it jumped over to the United States and we were, and still are, the center of global outreach for the faith. But the real exciting part of the faith is in places like the Philippines and the underground church in China and Africa. And I, uh, I, I came up with this revelation that God moves. Not God moves, you know, but (laughs) packs up his bag and moves. (laughs) You know? I mean, he-

Jim: (laughs) Leaves the scene.

Philip: Yeah. He used to be in the Middle East, then he went to Europe, and then he went to the United States, North America. And then now he’s all over the place. (laughs) And, and the real active parts are in, in a lot of the most challenging places in the world. And I, I concluded that God goes where he’s wanted.

Jim: Mm.

Philip: And the more prosperous and stable a society gets, think of Europe, think of the United States now, then people say, “Well, I, I could be watching football on television on Sunday. I don’t have to go to church. I could be doing, uh, I could be just accumulating more and more. Why should I care about poor people in the world?”

Jim: Right, we don’t really need him as much.

Philip: Right.

Jim: I mean it-

Philip: That’s right.

Jim: I don’t mean that-

Philip: My life goes pretty well here.

Jim: Right. But that’s what we say.

Philip: We do. And, and God never forces himself, never twists our arms. God just says, “I’ll, I’ll find somebody who does need me.”

Jim: Yeah.

Philip: “And admits it and wants me.”

Jim: Boy, that’s so true. Philip, this has been so good. Thank you for being with me. I appreciate it.

Philip: It’s been a pleasure to discuss these things. We haven’t solved them all, but.

Jim: Yeah, right. (laughs)

Philip: A few, a few d- along the way.

Jim: Yeah. Thank you so much.

John: What a great two-part conversation, uh, Jim, that you had with Philip Yancey. And, uh, for the listeners a reminder that we’re here for you to help in your spiritual journey. If this is the first time you’re hearing about the gospel, the good news, um, or maybe you’re rediscovering that message, as Philip did, get in touch with us. Our website has a free booklet you can download. It’s called Coming Home and it really is a nice readable summary of the gospel and you can find that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: And wherever you’re at in your spiritual journey, we’d encourage you to get a copy of Philip’s great book, Vanishing Grace. Consider making a monthly pledge or a one-time gift to Focus on the Family, and when you partner with us in ministry together, we’ll send you Philip’s book as our way of saying thank you.

John: Donate and get your copy of Vanishing Grace: Whatever Happened to the Good News? when you call 800-232-6459 or visit focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Do plan to join us next time as we offer encouragement and wisdom for parents of teenagers.

Preview:

Dr. Gary Chapman: They are gonna be greatly influenced by our model more than anything we say. By our model. So if they turn out to be like me in this particular area, am I gonna be happy with that? If not, I need to be changing it now, and I need to go ahead and apologize for my past failures with this and make those changes.

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