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Centering Your Marriage on Christ

Air Date 01/28/2019

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Ryan and Selena Frederick describe how, early in their marriage, his severe health problems compelled them to become more intentional about putting Christ at the center of their relationship. They explain what that means and offer couples help for doing the same.

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Episode Transcript

Opening:

Excerpt:

Ryan Frederick: That eternal perspective came. But it took years to kind of, like, fill that out and to know that life is still short. And so we need to spend our moments doing eternal things and not just, you know, wasting them.

End of Excerpt

John Fuller: That’s Ryan Frederick. And he joins us today on Focus on the Family, along with his wife, Selena. And your host his Focus president and author Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, here’s a question for you. Is your marriage fierce?

John: Fierce?

Jim: I mean...

(LAUGHTER)

John: Like angry?

Jim: I don’t know what that means.

John: Okay.

Jim: But we’re gonna find out today.

John: Fierce, all right.

Jim: Fierce. Do you have a fierce marriage?

John: We have fierce moments. How’s that?

Jim: Well, sure. But it sounds good. I like that idea of having a fierce marriage. I’m not quite sure yet what that will be defined as. But we’re gonna talk more about that and what it means today with our guests. One thing’s for sure, here at Focus on the Family, we love marriage. We don’t wanna raise it up to idolatry, but we think marriage is and the family is God’s institution to help us learn and grow, hopefully in His direction, right? And that is our goal here at Focus, to empower you to have the best marriage you can in Christ. That is the goal. God has a purpose for your marriage. And we’re gonna explore that today. We’re gonna help you learn how to strengthen your marriage by pursuing each other in Christ within the covenant of marriage. I think that’s pretty good right there.

John: I do too. And Ryan and Selena Frederick created a website, fiercemarriage.com, in 2013. The mission is to point couples - Jim, as you were saying - to Christ and to commission marriages for the Gospel. And I love the intentionality. They’ve written a book by the name of Fierce Marriage. The subtitle is “Radically Pursuing Each Other In Light of Christ’s Relentless Love.” And I should note that Ryan and Selena have two daughters, Della and Clementine. And they live in Tacoma, Washington.

Body:

Jim: Ryan and Selena, welcome to Focus.

Selena Frederick: Thank you for having us.

Ryan: Yeah, thank you for having us.

Selena: We’re glad to be here.

Jim: This is big.

Selena: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, have a fierce marriage. That’s a big statement.

Ryan: Yes.

Jim: And a big book. I mean, that’s daring, for you guys to write it. Ryan, you first met Selena when you were I think in eighth grade. Is that right?

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: You can remember who you met in eighth grade. That’s good.

Ryan: Well, I can’t forget her. That’s for sure.

(LAUGHTER)

Jim: Good answer.

Ryan: But yeah, I...

Jim: How did you go from eighth grade classmates to romantically inclined - what? - teenagers or 20-somethings?

Ryan: Well, it took some time. I had to kind of get my act together ‘cause...

Jim: Oh, good, Selena. Way to go.

(LAUGHTER)

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: Way to pull it out of him.

Ryan: I didn’t actually introduce myself ‘til I think two years later.

Jim: That’s kind of normal for guys, right?

(LAUGHTER)

Ryan: Yeah, I saw from a distance.

Jim: You’re still on the wall.

John: Took two years to work it out.

Jim: It’s being on the wall at the junior high dance, right?

Ryan: Oh, exactly. Yeah.

Jim: You never get off the wall.

(LAUGHTER)

Ryan: And I still had, like, braces and bleached hair. I was in the - like, the Northwest grunge scene. You know, and she was way out of my league. But yeah, it took some time.

Jim: But how - seriously, how did - it’s always good to hear a story like this. And you guys are a young couple. So it’s wonderful to hear that the Lord still works through schools to bring people together for marriage.

Selena: Mmhmm. There you go. There you go, yeah.

Jim: But, I mean, you’re junior high, right? Eighth grade.

Selena: Yeah, he visited in junior high...

Jim: Okay.

Selena: ...The school that we were going to. And apparently he remembers me. I remember the game we were playing in P.E. because I loved it.

(LAUGHTER)

Selena: That’s about all I remember when he was there.

Ryan: Yeah.

Selena: And then - yeah, he came back a few years later. And the bleached hair was gone. He’d just went to football camp. And...

Jim: So now you notice him.

Selena: Braces were - yeah. All the...

Jim: Oh, braces were gone.

Selena: Girls were all like, “Oh, he’s such a sweet guy.” And I was like, “Who?”

(LAUGHTER)

Selena: And then we were in advanced English class together. And he started sharing his thoughts. And I was very overwhelmed by the brainpower that was inside.

(LAUGHTER)

Jim: This is good.

Selena: No, he started answering questions. And I was like, “Wow, he’s really smart. And he’s...”

Ryan: I call it providence ‘cause my mom’s an English teacher.

Jim: Oh, no.

Ryan: And so I had an edge, yeah.

Jim: How’d that go?

Ryan: Uh...

Jim: Did she correct your adverb...

Ryan: All the time.

Jim: ...Application, all that? Yeah.

Ryan: All the time. But it...

Selena: Still does.

(LAUGHTER)

Jim: Happily, not happy - happily...

Ryan: Yes. Yes. It was even worse having a shrink for a dad.

Jim: Oh, you’re kidding me.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: English teacher and a psychologist?

Ryan: Yes.

Jim: Wonderful. Well, that’s why you’re so well-adjusted, right? And you can articulate it very well.

Ryan: Hopefully. Hopefully.

Jim: But when did you get married?

Selena: When we were 20 and 21, so...

Ryan: Mmhmm, yeah.

Selena: Right? Roughly.

Jim: Okay. And how - how were those first couple of years? What were they like?

Ryan: You know what? We were - we dated for four years. And we were friends, really good friends, before that. So yeah, I’d say the first couple of years of marriage were actually really fun.

Selena: Yeah.

Ryan: Other than what we talked about in our book where, you know, things kind of went sideways health-wise.

Selena: Yeah.

Ryan: But, you know, we had our fights. But it wasn’t like this - we were so young. We didn’t have our own...

Selena: I feel like some of our - our clashes, you know when you get married that first year, you kind of are like, oh, your eyes are opened to somebody, right? But I felt like we knew each other pretty well, that it wasn’t like this, “Oh who is this person I’m living with?” Or, “Who is this...”

Ryan: Right.

Selena: It really - those kind of things came a little bit later, to be honest.

Jim: Would you say normal annoyances, or...

(LAUGHTER)

Selena: Normal yes.

Jim: The normal annoyance of just being with somebody else...

Selena: The normal... Yes, yes.

Jim: ...All the time.

Selena: And we were busy together. We had a lot of things going on. It wasn’t until we faced some bigger challenges outside of our community, like in our church and different things, that we really came to grips with, “Oh, you don’t believe that?” Or I - what - how - coming together and things like that.

Jim: Well, I want to get to because you have a really unique story. You did some things early in your marriage that are a bit different - taking a job in Switzerland, for example.

Selena: Yes.

Jim: How long were you married when you went to Switzerland for that job?

Selena: Uh, almost - we celebrated our two-year anniversary coming home. So...

Jim: So that was it?

Selena: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, you’re two years into your marriage.

Selena: Yeah.

Jim: You take a job in Switzerland to be an au pair, I believe? And...

Selena: To be an au pair and to ride horses, yep.

Jim: And Ryan gets hired on to be...

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: Kind of the ranch hand?

Selena: Basically.

Ryan: I was a tagalong hire.

Jim: That’s okay. That’s okay. It sounds exciting. What happened?

Selena: Well, we just finished our college finals. Ryan was very, very sick. Um...

Jim: But you didn’t know that?

Ryan: Yeah.

Selena: But we didn’t know it, no. He just thought he had the flu, thought it was just a combination of lack of sleep and energy drinks and coffee.

Ryan: Yeah, just horrible diet during finals and...

Selena: And, you know, you’re 20. You can live on whatever.

(LAUGHTER)

Ryan: Had this persistent cough. And we just - we - yeah. She had this, you know, harebrained idea to get this job as au pair.

Selena: Passion - I had a passion.

Jim: A passion.

Ryan: She had a passion.

(LAUGHTER)

Jim: You haven’t learned that yet? Ryan, okay, come on. You’ve written a book here.

(LAUGHTER)

John: We’ve got a counselor on the line just in case.

Ryan: Yes, thank you. Bring ‘em on, yeah.

Selena: Perfect. Perfect. We’ll be...

Jim: It’s your dad.

(LAUGHTER)

Ryan: Oh, great, yeah.

Jim: Actually, that is - I mean, you know, that is quite brave. What was compelling you to go do this?

Selena: I loved riding horses, grew up doing it and kind of a - a dream...

Jim: You can do that in Washington, you know, where you live?

(LAUGHTER)

Selena: Yes, but it - the biggest dream would be to go overseas and ride in Europe. That’s a big equestrian dream. And so I - we wanted to go to Europe after college anyways. And I thought, why not find a job and make it an extended stay a little bit? And...

Jim: So you get to Switzerland?

Selena: Yes.

Jim: You’re married only a year and a half or so...

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: Or a year and eight months at this point. You’re not feeling well. It’s a persistent lethargy.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: What’s going on?

Ryan: Well, yeah. So we land, and I’m trying to work and trying to kind of impress our new boss. And I just have no strength. And I’m coughing a lot, like...

Selena: You had fevers.

Ryan: Fevers, and I’m sweating through, you know, a mattress every night. And so I took a few days off. And I just wasn’t getting better. This is a big - important detail. But we bought travelers insurance, of all things.

Selena: Health insurance - travelers health insurance, yeah.

Ryan: Travelers health insurance, yeah. And so I was like, I just - we have to go see a doctor. I need medicine, but I don’t want to pay, right?

Jim: Right.

Ryan: And so we bought this insurance. And I go. And they - they couldn’t find out what was going on. So they just gave me antibiotics and painkillers and said, “Come back in a few days, and we’ll check the levels and all that.” And so I started feeling better, and I got back to work. And those kind of kept the symptoms at bay and then - until they didn’t - right? Until we ran out of the medicine. And basically, it just took a terrible turn for the worst.

Jim: Now, Selena, prior to this, you were kind of feeling like Ryan was letting you down, right?

Selena: Yes.

Jim: I love that aspect of it.

Selena: Yeah.

Jim: Because it’s very honest. In the book you write about that. You were - you know, “My bright, handsome husband is a dud.”

(LAUGHTER)

Jim: I mean, I’m - you know, I’m summarizing. But you’re - you’re really internalizing.

Selena: “Yay.” I was battling with that internally for sure.

Jim: You’re on the adventure of a lifetime.

Selena: Yes.

Jim: You’re riding horses...

Selena: Yes.

Jim: ...In Switzerland.

Selena: Yes.

Jim: And you’re living your dream.

Selena: Yes.

Jim: Yet, Ryan’s not stepping up.

Selena: Yes.

Jim: That’s how you felt.

Selena: Yes.

Jim: I don’t want to overstate it. But what was going on...

Selena: No, that it was my internal dialogue, was, “How can I help you meet what I want to do? How can I bring you along? Like, what can I do? How come we can’t, like, make this work? What’s going on? Our boss thinks you can’t work. I mean, I know you’re sick, but can you just pull it together a little bit more for me?”

Jim: “You can’t be that sick.”

Selena: Yes, I...

John: Did you verbalize that at all, Selena?

Selena: In some ways. I mean, we were...

Ryan: I felt it. I felt it, yeah.

Selena: Yeah, and we were two years married. We didn’t know how to communicate that well, I would say.

Jim: You know, it’s really important right here because there’s a lot of couples that will struggle if you’re married two years or 20 years, 50 years. How did the Lord deal with you in that regard? What was the lesson learned spiritually about being the wife and being the husband who couldn’t meet that expectation?

Ryan: Well, in hindsight it’s easy to kind of see, you know, God’s hand on all of it and how it was all working. At the time, it certainly wasn’t clear what was going on. I just knew I - I didn’t want to be the reason my wife’s dreams were dashed upon the rocks, right? And so I...

Selena: But I didn’t want to be the reason that you almost died. And, like...

Ryan: Well, we didn’t know the extent of it.

Selena: Right, but you were sick. And how - how horrible of me to be...

Ryan: Right.

Selena: ...As a wife, to not care for you.

Jim: And at that point, it’s gonna begin to click in.

Selena: Yes.

Jim: I - that’s why I wanted to catch that answer from you prior to...

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: ...Your realization that, “Oh, this is serious.” Because it’s so human to do what you did, which is, “Pick up yourself by your bootstraps. Let’s go. We’re on - we’re on the adventure.”

Selena: Right, right.

Jim: “And you’re letting me down.”

Selena: Right.

Jim: I just - I like that realization. The - but once you knew that Ryan was really sick, it changed, I’m sure.

Selena: Absolutely.

Jim: And what happened at that point?

Ryan: Well, you know, the diagnosis came down. And basically, they found out that I had an infection on my heart. I have a congenital defect that I never knew about. And it - the poor diet and the lack of sleep and the hard work and all that kind of contributed to this perfect storm that led to this diagnosis.

Jim: I mean, for folks listening, it was a bacterial infection on your heart valve, right?

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, it was...

Jim: That’s a little scary.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. And they get in there, and there’s a 2 - it’s 2 centimeters in length. And it’s flapping around like a flag.

Selena: It was a bacterial growth on the valve, just flapping.

Ryan: Just flapping around. And the doctors kind of looked at it. And judging by their reaction, we got pretty scared because it’s not like, “Oh, just take some medicine and go home.” It’s like, this is a bad - their reaction was, “We need to get you to the state hospital of Zurich now.” And they got the - I think it was the head cardiologist for all of Zurich on the phone. “We have this American kid. He’s got endocarditis. What do we do?” And it was really crazy because we weren’t Swiss citizens. So we didn’t fit their system.

Jim: Right.

Ryan: That’s why the medical...

John: The insurance...

Ryan: Insurance was so huge.

John: ...Paid off, yeah.

Selena: Yes.

Ryan: And we ended up being in inpatient, so spent a week trying to treat it. And all of a sudden, I felt vindicated. “Okay, I’m not just a - I’m not just a wimp, right? I’m actually sick.”

Jim: Right, after all these months and weeks of feeling less-than.

Ryan: Yeah. My boss - you know, our boss at the time, he apologized because he - you know, he thought I was a slacker. He thought I was just being lazy.

John: Lazy American.

Selena: Yes, exactly.

John: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah, exactly, that stereotype. And I could hear that going on my head. And yeah, and they finally said, “Hey, we can’t fix it with antibiotics. We need to open you up and have heart surgery tomorrow.”

Jim: Do heart surgery - I mean, that is amazing.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: You’re 22 years old. They encourage you to write up your will, to think about end-of-life issues. I mean, you’re just married a couple of years, and you’re - what?

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: You had to be going, “What?”

Ryan: Well, you know, we had that Swiss - and we were in the Swiss-German part of Switzerland. So there’s that stoicism, right? So they didn’t encourage any of that kind of stuff. It was like, “Well, this is as a matter of fact. Here’s what we’ve got to do. We’re going to operate tomorrow.” I had done an internship with a cardiothoracic surgeon in college. So I kind of knew exactly what they were gonna do. And so I explained it to Selena. And so I knew that my chances were good, but they aren’t as high as you’re comfortable with going under the knife, right? And so I opted at that point, just personally. My dad was there at the time, just sitting in silence the night before. And I just wrote out letters to her, letters to my dad, my brother, my mom, good friends. And, uh, yeah - just if I don’t make it, here’s what I want you to do. I want you to find a guy that treats you better than me - and, you know, crying the whole time and...

Jim: Oh, my.

Ryan: Yeah. So it really kind of brought us face to face with our finitude, like, our limits as humans...

Jim: Right.

Ryan: ...And really knowing that this life is so fragile. And really, after the fact, it kind of feels like a privilege, having to have that perspective at such a young age.

John: Mmhmm.

Selena: Mmhmm.

Ryan: It’s created a bit of anxiety since then knowing that - wow - it could happen any day.

Jim: Oh, sure.

Ryan: But...

Jim: So someone’s got to be asking - listening right now - did you let them read the letters? I mean that’s...

Ryan: Uh, I read Selena’s to her.

Jim: Okay.

Ryan: That’s it.

Selena:Jim: Only like once because even sitting here when he talks about it, I’m like, “Okay.”

Jim: How did that make you feel?

Ryan: She starts to cry. Yeah.

Selena: Here comes the emotions.

Jim: How did that make you feel? Yeah. I mean...

Selena: I - you know, you’re two years married, about six years - the best of friends. And you just - you try to go past it. I mean, as a young person, you don’t have this - even as an older person, the finality of death is something I felt like you deal with for your entire life, you know? And so knowing that that was a possibility for him - a high possibility - it was somewhat incomprehensible to me. And I felt like there was a state of shock. And I still was trusting God. And I think I had a bit of maybe naive grace or something - God just holding me in that while he was in surgery and just...

Jim: Mmhmm.

Selena: ...Keeping my mind at bay. And...

Jim: Yeah.

Selena: It was a battle for sure.

Ryan: I remember crying thinking we were not going to get to raise children together. And we knew we didn’t want children right away. But we knew that that was something we wanted together at some point. And I’m thinking, like, that’s never going to happen...

Selena: Yeah.

Ryan: ...For us. And that’s just not really I’m going to get to experience. And so that’s why waking up was so sweet.

Jim: Well - and that’s the point to pick the story up, the fact that you did wake up from surgery.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: You looked at each other. And the doctors were optimistic...

Ryan: Mmhmm.

Jim: ...That they had done the job needed to allow you many more years.

Selena: Mmhmm.

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: That gave you a different perspective...

Ryan: Mmhmm.

Jim: ...When it comes to marriage. What changed?

Ryan: To be honest and to be really candid, initially, I was really angry at God. Like, how could He let this even happen?

Jim: Mm.

Ryan: So there was a period of kind of - you know, you sit - if you ever - you know, in the surf and a wave catches you on your heels, you know, you’ve gotta recover from it. And that was a really refining time for our faith. But it really started to shape our theology around our capacity to be glorifying to God and how it’s really up to His sovereignty at every step. And it’s by His grace that we do anything that’s good. And, um the small moments that we have are important, right?

Selena: Mmhmm.

Ryan: So that eternal perspective came. But it came - it took years to kind of fill that out and to know that life is still short.

John: Yeah.

Ryan: And so we need to spend our moments doing eternal things and not just, you know, wasting them. So...

John: Mm. That’s really good advice from Ryan Frederick. He and Selena have written a book, Fierce Marriage. They’re the founders of the website fiercemarriage.com. And I should note the foreword to the book is written by our friend Gary Thomas. And I can hear a little bit of Gary’s thoughts in even what you’re saying, Ryan. Get a copy of this book and the conversation when you get in touch with us. Our number is 800-A-FAMILY. And online, we’re at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Selena, let me come back to you because I want people to really hear your heart - and, Ryan - you, too - in terms of what you learned. But, um, facing death you typically don’t do until later in life.

Selena: Mm.

Jim: Typically - I know some young people do face it. And - and that happens. But what did you really take away from this? What was that one thing that you thought, “Wow. Facing it so early helped me become fill-in-the-blank”?

Selena: Um, grateful.

Jim: Grateful?

Selena: Grateful everyday - grateful for the moments - the good and the bad and the ugly and all the in-between - just knowing that what we have today was not for sure - it was not a guarantee - grateful to God to have led us either way, led me either way and be sovereign in - in the outcomes.

Jim: Let me ask you this because, again, I so appreciate your honesty in the beginning about the story and how Ryan wasn’t carrying his weight.

Selena: Mmhmm.

Jim: Did it - and I mean this in the best of ways...

Selena: Convicted me?

Jim: Did it help you learn to be less selfish?

Selena: Absolutely - absolutely.

Jim: And in what way?

Selena: It was very convicting. I think it slowed me down in my accusing state, you know, as a - as a young wife - accusing my husband of maybe not doing these things or not engaging the way I want him to. Why isn’t he helping me? - and, you know, just all of my - not realizing there’s a deeper issue...

Jim: Yeah.

Selena: ...That I’m not seeing, that I’m ignoring. And so I think it’s - it put the brakes on me jumping to those conclusions.

Jim: Ryan, you wake up. Things are moving. You’re making a decision now: “Fierce marriage is where I want to live.”

(LAUGHTER)

Jim: “And there’s where I want Selena to be.” What does that mean to have a fierce marriage? All the way back, a few minutes ago, when we started the program?

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. So the name is Selena’s idea. So...

Selena: That’s my only claim to fame because...

Ryan: Yeah.

Selena: ...You’re the marketing guy.

(LAUGHTER)

Selena: So this is my...

Ryan: But it came from, I think, this thought that marriage that lasts and is loving and is Christ-honoring takes a fierce tenacity that never gives up and never gives in. And that was - that was kind of our founding - “Okay, this is this is what a fierce marriage is. And that’s what we mean by the word ‘fierce.’“ And what kind of compelled us into it - into - to have this conviction to share is that we, at the time, actually - so we - from the time we were two years married coming back from this trip and up until nine years married, we were just - I don’t know - growing roots.

Selena: Mmhmm.

Ryan: We were figuring out some aspects of our faith, some aspects of our own relationship - no kids at all. And, um, we had friends that had gotten married and some had gotten divorced. And many - and not many...

Jim: Already?

Ryan: ...But few - yeah...

Jim: Yeah.

Ryan: ...In that time that we were already married. And so I thought, “What’s so different about us? Why are we happy? Why we’re still together?” And, of course, we landed on - simply, it’s Jesus. He’s the only reason. I mean, that as a pat answer. But He’s the reason that we’re - have grace toward each other. And we can still...

Selena: He’s the fuel behind us having a...

Ryan: He’s the fuel behind it - yeah.

Selena: ...Fierce marriage.

Jim: Well, let me - and let me dig into the fierce marriage...

Selena: Yeah.

Jim: Because, again, you can take that in a lot of different ways. Fierceness can be negative.

Ryan: Sure.

Jim: It can be used as a weapon...

Ryan: Yeah.

Jim: ...Particularly in marriage. You can be a fierce husband...

Ryan: Right.

Jim: ...In all the wrong ways.

Ryan: Yes.

Selena: Mmhmm.

Jim: Describe more adequately what spiritual fierce marriage looks like? What does it mean when you wake up in the morning? What do you do?

Ryan: Yeah. So I think it’s summarized in the subtitle of our book - “Radically Pursuing Each Other In Light of Christ’s Relentless Love.” And that’s really become kind of the refrain - is that we only love each other because we are loved. And we can only love each other - the biblical love because - to the extent that we experience the love of Christ in the Gospel, right? And so in our book, we talked about, like, the foundations and how so much of what your marriage looks like - building it and making a fierce marriage - starts with what is your bedrock? What is your foundation? What is your framework?

Selena: Mmhmm.

Ryan: What is the fuel? And so we talk about the Gospel being the absolute foundation of it - knowing who you are, um...

Selena: Understanding your beliefs as a couple...

Ryan: Yes, yes.

Selena: ...And how your beliefs really inform your behavior. And so...

Ryan: Namely, believing and knowing that you’re a sinner in need of grace, and you have received it in Christ - and that’s a transformative idea. It’s...

Jim: No. That is really good. You mention in the book the idea of covenant marriage...

Selena: Mmhmm.

Jim: ...And the importance of it. Uh, we’ve talked about that more from a kind of a legal standard of what covenant marriage means. But what - how do you define it in your book?

Ryan: That’s a big question.

Selena: Well - yeah, we deal with it - or we I guess define it through the Bible and looking at God’s covenantal character with His people. And we sort of contrast it with the contractual - covenantal versus contractual.

Jim: Right, the non-legal...

Selena: Absolutely.

Jim: Yeah.

Selena: Absolutely. A covenant is more of, like, a living, breathing...

Jim: Heart-binding.

Selena: Yes.

Jim: Yeah, I like that.

Selena: Yes. Yes, whereas contractual is very dependent on you providing me with things, and I provide you with things. And once - if you’re not meeting my standards, my needs, all these things that we sort of outlined and committed to, then, you know we might walk away. So that’s kind of a...

Jim: You know, you guys - you’re a young couple. You have young children, 2 and 5. So you’re living in that space right now. I think older Christians, we might think of younger Christians as being more transactional. I love what you’re saying. Do your peers feel this way too? You know, the committed Christian community that are in their 20, 30-somethings? Are they feeling like there’s something bigger than a transactional relationship here?

Selena: Absolutely. And I think the funny thing is, is that it requires the transparency. It requires the time to be able to experience the covenantal, right? The covenantal requires more of us.

Jim: Right. And frankly, I mean, shame on us because I think older Christians have failed in that way, that we have not figured that out. I think oftentimes, we had the transactional down. That’s why divorce rates are so high in the church rather than understanding God’s covenantal heart for marriage. So good for you guys. And good for all of us that hopefully see that is the core value that the Lord is seeking in our marriages.

John: Yeah. Selena, how does that play out when you’re busy, and your girls are kind of draining you?

(LAUGHTER)

John: How do you elevate above the day-to-day...

Selena: Yes, yeah.

John: ...To be the covenantal part of your relationship?

Selena: Absolutely, no.

Jim: Under your breath, “Okay.”

Selena: That’s a good one. Yes. Definitely reminding, reminding, reminding myself - whether it’s being in Scripture and knowing as much as I can, knowing and understanding who God is, who I am in light of who He is, knowing God through His Word. But also knowing that the Holy Spirit is with me and can empower me to die to myself when I don’t feel like it, to make those right decisions when I don’t feel like it or I don’t want to, knowing that there’s a bigger outcome. There’s life beyond this momentary death of wanting to yell at my husband or lock my kids in their room for five minutes because I’m gonna go crazy or something.

Ryan: I think it’s also, be free to go back to them, too, and apologize and repent to your own kids.

Selena: Yeah.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Selena: Absolutely.

Ryan: And say, “Hey, I’m a sinner too. I need Jesus...”

Selena: I need Jesus.

Ryan: “...And I need your forgiveness. Here’s what I did wrong.”

Jim: That’s always good, especially good in marriage. I mean, it’s good when you do that with your kids. I think in some ways it’s harder to do it with your spouse...

Selena: Yes.

Jim: ...Ironically. Ryan, something in your book really caught me because after your heart surgery, the doctors left some wires attached to your heart that I guess were coming out of your chest - seems a little odd?

Ryan: Yeah.

John: Kind of the Iron Man look.

Jim: Like, did they forget or what? But I guess it was intentional, so that they could - if they needed to, they could jumpstart your heart. But what spiritual application did you apply to that?

Ryan: Yeah, that was - yeah - I love that because the analogy that I drew from it is that any moment, they could give life or death - right? - By these wires that were connected to these strategic parts of my heart. And the parallel that I drew is in communication, right? As a spouse, you have a direct line to each other’s heart. Like, they’ve given you access that’s unprecedented for any other person, ideally. And so the words you say hold a lot of weight, right? And you can - the Bible says, you know, your words have the power of life and death, you know, so choose life.

And so as a husband, early on in our marriage, I would be really harsh. I would be really - you know, a lot of husbands do this. They’re very logical. You try to argue your way out of things when really you just need to empathize. And so realizing that about my tendency and the fact that she’s given me access to her heart gives me kind of this sweet conviction that I need to steward her heart well and speak life and empathize and maybe just even shut my mouth at times.

Jim: Yeah. I mean, this is so powerful. And I love that analogy, life and death to the heart. And I’m assuming the doctors did remove those wires.

Ryan: Excruciatingly, yes.

(LAUGHTER)

Ryan: And I wasn’t asleep for it. It was terrible.

John: Oh.

Ryan: Yeah.

Closing:

Jim: And I think what you have to share in the book, Fierce Marriage, is so relevant to couples of all ages, to remember the idea of being known and knowing your spouse. I mean, those are great concepts that all of us should aim for. I think in your book, you say Jesus isn’t merely a means to a better marriage. Your marriage is a means to a better relationship with Jesus. That is really well said. I love that.

I have one follow-up question for you. But before we go there, let me turn to the listeners. This is exactly why we’re here. If you need help in your marriage, we have counselors who can help you. We are a treasure chest of resources and tools here at Focus. That’s really what Focus is, is just this mountain of help for you if you need it. And I hope you will take us up on that. If you don’t have the marriage that you feel the Lord wants you to have or that you want to have, get a hold of us. We will be here for you. We will help you. And this is one of the great resources and tools that we’d like to put in your hands, Fierce Marriage. And if you can make a gift of any amount - even if you can’t afford it, we’ll get it to you. And I’m sure others will cover the cost of that. Let’s work on your marriage together so that it will honor our Lord Jesus Christ.

John: Yeah. Donate and request your copy of Fierce Marriage. And when you’re online, go ahead and take our Focus on Marriage Assessment, which will help you kind of gauge where you’re at. Our website is focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, and our toll-free number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY - 800-232-6459.

Jim: All right, Ryan and Selena, here’s that last question. Speak to the husband or the wife, uh, listening right now who thinks it might be too late for their marriage. Um, the fierceness is the negative fierceness that we’ve talked about. It’s survival at this point. Uh, what should they do differently? How do they turn that around and start honoring the Lord?

Selena: I guess I just wanna encourage them to see that this is the most opportune time, I think, for God to be at work and for God to soften your heart, soften your husband’s heart and to just rest assured that He is a big God. And there’s ways that He works that we can’t always see or understand, but to press in to Him, to press into His word, um, to engage in prayerfully, you know, pursuing your spouse. You look like you have something to say.

Ryan: Yeah, no. I’m just imagining the couples that we’ve seen in that situation that have had - that’ve gone from hearts of stone to hearts of flesh and for inexplicable reasons other than God is at work and, I think, by pressing in to God’s Word and pressing into His community, namely, being known by others. And that looks like getting a good counselor, getting a good, uh, pastor to walk with you, not just to give you advice and platitudes, but to walk with you. I think every time we’ve seen a couple do that in earnest, we’ve seen amazing - God works.

Selena: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah.

Ryan: He works. He’s powerful. And...

Jim: Well, that’s the point, isn’t it?

Ryan: Yes.

Selena: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jim: God works.

Ryan: God works.

Jim: And it’s been great. And you’ve captured it in Fierce Marriage. Thanks for being with us.

Selena: Thank you for having us.

Ryan: Thank you.

John: And this final encouragement to contact us and get a copy of the book, Fierce Marriage. Uh, we’ll tell you more when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

Well, join us again tomorrow when we hear about the powerful impact that a father can have on his children.

Teaser:

Joe Battaglia: I think it’s incumbent upon us as men, and particularly as fathers, to understand that our role is a teacher.

End of Teaser

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Ryan and Selena Frederick

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Ryan and Selena Frederick created FierceMarriage.com in 2013 when they felt God calling them to share, with total transparency, the struggles He had helped them overcome. Since then, Fierce Marriage has grown into a thriving online community with hundreds of thousands of readers each month, with the simple mission of pointing couples to Christ and commissioning marriages for the Gospel. Ryan and Selena have two daughters and reside in Tacoma, Washington.