Pastor John Ortberg: And so just saying, did you see the game last night? Have you read this book? Have you had coffee yet? Um, that's not just a piece of information. That somebody saying, I want to be connected with you.
End of Excerpt
John Fuller: Pastor John Ortberg says that relational intimacy with another person is the greatest, most worthwhile pursuit you can have. And we'll explore that perspective with him on Focus on the Family. Your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly, and I'm John Fuller.
Jim Daly: Eh... John [Fuller], we're going to talk today about intimacy in all of our relationships. Now, don't turn the dial. Don't freak out, don't panic. It's a good thing. You know, we always talk about how we're made in the image of God and how He has made us for relationship. Yet, it's maybe one of the most intimidating things uh... for many people. And we want to address that. Not only relationships with each other, of course with our family, but also our intimacy in our relationship with God.
And we have someone very special that we're gonna talk about this topic with. It's Pastor John Ortberg. He's written a great book called, "I'd Like You More if You Were More Like Me," and it's got a dog and a cat on the cover. My wife loved that, by the way, John [Ortberg] (chuckling).
And it is a fabulous guide for us to know how to work in the area of relationship.
John F.: Yeah. And John [Ortberg] is the Senior Pastor of Menlo Church in the San Francisco Bay area and is a very popular author and speaker. He has some great insights. This is going to be a really engaging program.
Jim: John [Ortberg], welcome to Focus.
John O.: You guys, it's great to be here...
John O.: ...with both of you. Thank you.
John F.: Yep. Yep.
Jim: And uh... man, I do love the... Who came up with the title? I gotta ask.
John O.: Uh... (laughter), I hate to admit it, but I did.
Jim: Did I put you on the spot?
John O.: Yeah! I feel...
Jim: That's good (Laughing while talking)
John O.: ...embarrassed now! Yeah... (Laughing)
Jim: Well, that's hilarious! But it is true. I mean, this is true for all of us as human beings, isn't it? If you were more like me I'd like ya a lot more.
John O.: I uh... a really good friend of mine, that I went through grad school with, and practices therapy, he says the number one barrier to people staying connected relationally is just differences.
John O.: 'Cause people are so different. My - my wife is a total extrovert. I'm an introvert, so I love - if I'm working on something, I love to not be interrupted and just be able to focus. And a couple of weeks ago, were sitting together and she's reading a book called, Deep Work, about the power of concentrated attention and what you can do if you don't get interrupted.
John O.: And so - this is what she does. She just starts out, oh, John, you got to listen to this. You're gonna love this. And I'm trying to get done, and two minutes later, you got to hear what he says about undistracted attention. Well, that's cool. And then two minutes later, oh, you're gonna love - it's about the power of focus. And I was just thinking where, if you think it's so great to not be interrupted, try not interrupting me for 30 seconds, and see how that goes.
John F.: Ohh.
Jim: I can relate to Nancy, your wife. I mean, I'm extroverted, so I like her style, actually.
John O.: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's the thing is…. I was drawn to that part of her, when I first met her. It was like “oh man this is such a free spirit and it's so much life." And then we got married and - and what can often happen is the very things that draw you to somebody in the first place then become the barriers after you're married.
Jim: It's so amazing, isn't it? I'm really coming to the conclusion that God has absolutely designed it this way (laughter). And, uh, I think for the simple reason to make us more like him - more selfless and more giving, 'cause you have to give, when those irritations come up.
John O.: You know, relationships - a lot of times when people think about spiritual growth, they just restrict it to, like, reading the Bible or praying or going to church. I think relationships are the greatest spiritual discipline - the greatest tool for spiritual growth - that we have.
Jim: Well, let me ask you this. Why? What is it about human relationship?
John O.: Because...
Jim: What are we looking for in that relationship?
John O.: It's because other people are so weird.
Jim: (Laughter) Wait a second. That's too easy.
John O.: Uh, it's because the primary thing that God wants for anybody who's listening to us is for us to be able to love. And the weird thing is when I'm by myself, I can give myself credit for all kinds of spiritual growth. I can look at a Hallmark commercial, or World Vision, you know, ad for needy children and get all teary and think, oh, I'm such a compassionate person. But then, put me with a real person in about 10 seconds, and I start to get irritated, or angry, or pout, or feel distant. And so being with people - relationships - brings to the surface the reality inside me that I'll never see otherwise.
Jim: What need - or needs - are being met in that relationship? I'm serious...
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: ...Because someone, like an introvert - you self-describe that way, so I'm not picking on ya.
John O.: Yeah, it's fine. Go ahead pick on me, Jim. I don't care.
Jim: But are these needs different? I mean, that's the question. Extrovert or introvert - it doesn't matter. What is the basic human need of relationship? What are we looking for?
John O.: Uh, we were born to attach. We we were hatched to attach.
John O.: We were made to be connected with people.
Jim: Is that true for men, as well as women?
John O.: (Laughter)
Jim: I mean, I'm serious 'cause we tend to be - we can be loners emotionally, certainly. We can go watch a game with a bunch of guys and hit each other in the shoulder and say, that was great and see you later. And your wife will say, what'd you talk about? Uh, nothing.
John O.: Yeah. There's a researcher - she used to be at USC. Deborah Tannen - really interesting stuff on gender and life. And she said - it's a bit stereotypical - but generally, in girl culture, uh - we all want status, and in girl culture, you get status by being bonded.
John O.: So, to learn to share with each other, to find out who's on the inside, who knows the secrets, who tells them - that's how you get status. In boy culture, it tends to be through competition.
Jim: Right. Physical competition.
John O.: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, starting with athletics, but then also being smarter and being able to out-argue. And that's why, very often, when couples get married, uh - and again it's a bit of a stereotype, and it can be different with different individuals, but, um, for the woman, words are a stress reliever.
Jim: Yeah, they are.
John O.: Because, when you're sharing words, you're showing we're bonded, and so I feel better. For a guy, he has to use words to attain status and compete. And so, I'm smart. And so, words are actually a stress-producer.
Jim: That's why I laughed.
John O.: Yeah, that's exactly right. Nance will say, you know, how did your day go? And my instinctive internal response was, you know, I got no words left. I've been using words. It feels like a demand to me, and now, like - now I have to use my words to impress you, too. No, thanks. I'm done.
Jim: But she takes that as an insult.
John O.: Absolutely.
Jim: As, you don't love me. And you're going, no, that's not it. Please, let's not go there.
John O.: Yeah, yeah. Let me go to the cave. There's a reason why we talk about the man cave.
Jim: How does intimacy lead to a sense of belonging and give us that purpose? I mean, where does that intimacy drive us in a healthy context?
John O.: Yeah, yeah. So for a lot of people, when they hear the word intimacy, they think romance. They think sexuality. They think having your wife touch your leg while you're driving - something like that.
Jim: (Laughter) Yeah, right.
John O.: And, uh, the truth is that the best definition I've heard of intimacy came from this guy, Dallas Willard - he's a huge influence on my life.
Jim: Oh, yeah.
John O.: And he was saying, if you think about what is your life? More than flesh and blood or something, your life is a series of experiences. You have a great conversation, uh, hike up the mountains, you get to look at Pike's Peak, you see a great movie, listen to great music. Your life is a flow of experience. And then he said, intimacy is shared experience.
Jim: Huh, sure.
John O.: And I've never thought about intimacy in a way that - that simply - simply inviting somebody else to share in the experience that you're having. And that's why everybody's made for intimacy, and it's not just for people who are touchy-feely. It's not just for uh... women. Uh, we're all created for it. We can all learn how to do it. Um, but anybody who achieves a lot with their life, but they don't experience deep intimacy, when they get to the end of their lives, they will not have led a good life.
Jim: That's a powerful statement right there. I mean, it really is. That should sink into everybody's heart and soul, especially as believers, because intimacy is how we express the gospel. It's how we communicate those things we believe. It doesn't have to be necessarily with words. But it's, um, you know, with expression, with love and joy and peace - those things are the fruit of the Spirit, right?
John O.: Well, one of the things I've thought about in thinking about God, because you know, we talk about an intimate relationship with God. And for me, that was kind of a cliché, until I heard Dallas say, intimacy is shared experience. Because then what that means is any moment, I can invite God into it. So right now, I'm here with Jim and John [Fuller] in this great studio, and I can say, God, would you come and be with us, too? And help me to say the right thing, and help me not to worry about what it is that I'm saying or how it's going. God, would you just share this experience? And everybody that's listening to us right now, God, would you bless them right now? Would you help them to hear just what they need to hear? And then, I am - we are sharing this together with God. And so, an intimate ]relationship with God doesn't have to be a cliché, doesn't have to be restrict[ed] - any moment, I can invite God into it. And that's the way intimacy works.
Jim: I love that. We'll talk more about how to invite God into that intimacy. What keeps us, as human beings, from - from obtaining that intimacy, though? What do we fear by being vulnerable?
John O.: Well, um, it's an interesting thing that, uh, you know, if you go back to the Bible, and it will talk - uses such interesting language that Adam “knew” his wife. And that refers to both sexual intimacy, but also just coming to know somebody. And, uh, the deepest desire from the very beginning was to know and to be known - they were naked and not ashamed.
John O.: That's knowing. And then with the fall, what happens is, uh, there's all kinds of things I don't want you to know about me. Uh, I have desires that I'm ashamed of. I have, uh, actions that I regret. And so the thing that I want most - which is to know and be known - is also the thing that I fear most.
John O.: And so we have this, uh, tremendous, uh, ambivalence about it.
Jim: Now, when you look at marriage.
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, that's probably one of the most intimate relationships on the face of the earth. I mean, these are the people when you're in the heat of a discussion, they'll say, I know you better than anybody else, and I know that you're not that right now (laughter).
John O.: Oh, oh. Really interesting. So when - when I got married Nancy, I was so much more emotionally immature than I realized. Uh, I thought, I had a Ph.D. in clinical psychology, I thought I know this stuff. And I was just pathetically, wretchedly immature. One of the things I used to say to Nancy sometimes was, I know you better than you know yourself.
Jim: Ooh, that's always a good starter in marriage.
John F.: I'm sure she was really drawn to that.
John O.: You know, that's just one step away from "you're just like your mother."
John F.: Oh.
Jim: I know I have said that one, unfortunately.
John O.: And her mother is great. Her mother is great. Verna, if you're listening, you're great. Love ya. Um, but when I said that to Nancy, I had no idea what an insult that was to her because every human being is such a mystery - every human being. You know, when you think about what a person is, this is an eternal being of unbelievable depth. Dallas Willard used to say the soul is bigger than the whole universe.
John O.: And so, uh, there is such mystery, and there's no - it was so presumptuous of me to say to her, I know you better than you know yourself. And, uh, so it took me years to learn to stop saying that, and I don't say that anymore.
Jim: Well, the problem is we can not say that and still communicate that.
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: That's where I find fault with myself at times. I'll give that to Jean.
John O.: Yeah, knowing...
Jim: It's not good.
John O.: No, and so, uh, to learn kind of a dance of intimacy - what does it mean to be vulnerable with you? And to say, I wanna invite you to know me, and in particular, there's parts of myself that I'm embarrassed about, that I'm ashamed of, and I want you to know that stuff about me.
Jim: You know, John [Ortberg], as a pastor, you must see this. We've had powerful testimonies on "Focus on the Family" of husbands and wives where there's been a serious break of trust. It may be infidelity, whatever it might. Be those couples that can fight through that, actually, to me, have such great intimacy after the fact - after real brokenness, that it's actually spectacular.
John O.: Yeah. No.
Jim: Why is that?
John O.: I like, you know, it's kind of like, uh, when a bone breaks, it can be strongest at the point where the break was. And, uh, so what can happen is there's this break, there's this bad decision - enormous pain. I think of having to sit with the children of a couple where there had been an affair and explain to them what was going on. And it was just the most wrenching moment.
John O.: And over many, many years, they came back together with each other. And that was 30 years ago when that happened. The husband just died this past year. And to watch the way that she loved him and they cared for each other, the healing that took place, and even that part of their relationship that was the most painful, because they were able to experience forgiveness and reconciliation, that became the most tender. And their relationship became so much more real and so much more authentic, 'cause they knew the absolute core stuff that most couples just hide. So it can actually be an opportunity to come out of the hiding that most of us live and continue in.
Jim: And, you know, for us, it's so counter intuitive to think that through sin, we can actually find greater intimacy. I mean, that's not what we should pursue obviously, but it's like Romans 8:28. God will redeem it. He'll use all things.
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: And he does it in that case.
John F.: John Ortberg is our guest on "Focus on the Family." And, uh, we're covering just some of the great material in his book, I'd Like You More If You Were More Like Me. And, uh, we've got the book and a CD or download, and our mobile app, all at focusonthefamily.com/radio or call 1-800, the letter "A" and the word FAMILY.
Jim: John [Ortberg], I want to provide some practical advice for folks who are resonating with this. They're thinking maybe, you know, I haven't been able to be open with even my closest relationships - maybe my spouse or friends or the Lord. What's required of us in order to develop these kind of intimate relationships that we know we're fully living, as you described a moment ago?
John O.: Yeah, yeah. It's a great question. And there's, I think, a ton of hope for people. A lot of times, people have this idea that intimacy is built on real big, emotional, dramatic moments. And actually it's not. There's a researcher, John Gottman - great marriage researcher. And he says what's happening in relationships all the time is people are making what he calls bids for intimacy or bids for connection. And so just saying, did you see the game last night? Have you read this book? Have you had coffee yet? Um, that's not just a piece of information. That somebody saying, I want to be connected with you.
John O.: And, uh, to learn to recognize bids for intimacy - a lot of us just blow past them. We don't recognize that. But any time somebody is offering to share an experience - have you seen this cat video?
John O.: That's a bid for connection. And that's why it's not just for feelers. There's not just these deep emotional stuff. Gottman actually says, a lot of times we think about successful marriages as being ones that have these real deep emotional conversations all the time. He says, no, it's not. It's primarily relationships, where people are skilled at giving and receiving bids for connection all the time.
Jim: You know, I - I totally agree with that. The difficulty I have, and I think on behalf of some people who have high expectations of what intimacy actually is, and then they build up something more significant. So, they're not even recognizing their spouse.
John O.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love that. So, the first place to start, in a sense, is just lower the bar.
Jim: In a good way. It's healthy.
John O.: In a real good way, so you don't, you know, project a lifetime movie...
Jim: Yeah, right.
John O.: ...Expectation on a relationship. And what you have to - where you have to start is to say, um, what's a bid for connection? If I want more intimacy with this other person, what's a bid for connection that they're likely to receive well?
John O.: So for example, we have three kids. With two of my kids, if I were to say to them, I'd like to go out for lunch and just look you in the eye, and I want to know, what are you feeling? What are you thinking? What's going on in your heart? They would love that. I would gain points for that. I have another kid, where if I said that, they would run, screamin' the other direction. That's not going to feel good to them.
But if we share time together, if we get in the car, where we don't actually have to make eye contact, and we're just hanging out, and conversation can emerge, that will be a bid for intimacy with that kid that works really well. So where it has to start is I have to be aware of not just what's the kind of connection that I want, but what's the kind of connection that you want, and how do I enter into your world?
Jim: Now that sounds like the first step from - to selflessness, right?
John O.: Yeah, that's exactly right.
Jim: Communicate with me the way I need to be communicated with, not the way you need to communicate with me. In that regard, John [Ortberg], sometimes, um - and I think for me, I'll say this can be my issue. You know, I grew up hard. I grew up as an orphaned kid. And part of that mechanism is you begin to block off those areas. Now I feel healthy, but Jean will sometimes say to me, I think you're not feeling right now. You're not in the moment with me. You know, you're just, like, happy-go-lucky, usually - you know, the typical Jim. Let's just move forward. And I see that as a healthy thing. (Laughter) She sees it as a problem.
John O.: Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
Jim: Denial can work for you, can't it?
John F.: You just went public with this, so, uh,
Jim: Well, no. I mean, it's - to me, I..
John F.: I'm really interested in what John [Ortberg] has to say.
Jim: ...feel guilty sometimes 'cause I'm going, what am I missing here? Because I think it's quite right to say, OK, let's just forge ahead. Let's be - let's be joyful in all things. I can do that really well. But some of the folks around me can say, wow, OK, you're not in reality.
John O.: Yeah, you're not in touch with what's actually going on inside.
Jim: How do you find that right spiritual balance - that I am OK, or I'm not OK?
John O.: Yeah, no. The importance of self-awareness is so key. And just asking God, uh, you know, search me and know me. And - and the reason that gets asked is because I don't know myself. There's all - all kinds of parts of myself that I don't know.
Jim: That's called a blinder.
John O.: Yeah, it's exactly right. There's these huge blindspots. And the difficulty is if I'm not aware of them, they're driving my behavior. And you can see it when you look at me, but I can't see it.
John O.: So I have a real good friend - we just started doing something this last year that's been super helpful. Every morning for 10 minutes, we call each other up. And we talk about, how did yesterday go? Like, what do I need to learn from yesterday? And what am I facing today that I need prayer for?
Jim: Huh, that's great.
John O.: It's amazing. We're both kind of amazed. I'm a P the Meyers-Briggs, so I'm real disorganized, and I don't like to plan stuff. I'm very spontaneous. So, it's really hard for me to put something on my calendar that works. But this one, we both look forward to so much that we just love it. And I was talking to him this morning, before I came on this show, and saying, I've got a conversation with somebody that I need to have, and I'm aware of the fact that I don't wanna have it. I'm aware of the fact that it makes me anxious, and I don't like to think of myself as being anxious, 'cause that feels weak. And I'd rather avoid it. And naming that means, OK, now I can deal with it. But if I wasn't aware of it, it would drive my behavior, but I wouldn't know it.
John F.: John [Ortberg], is there any reason that you can't have that conversation with your wife - or maybe you do? I'm just I'm struck by that - the 10 minutes is a long time to be talking.
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: Are you being serious?
John F.: Well, there are...
Jim: It's funny. I was going, that's a short period of time.
John F.: There are a lot of couples...
John O.: You don't even get past hello in 10 minutes.
John F.: You know, if you've got little kids, 10 minutes is like forever. You can't do it without interruption.
John O.: Yeah, yeah, no. Little kids is a whole different thing.
John F.: What's your advice to doing that as a couple? I mean.
John O.: Yeah, um, you know, for Nancy and I, particularly when our kids were smaller, uh, what I would say can be really helpful is find the best time of day. And for us, it was afternoon. I'm a morning person, and Nancy's a night person, so we kind of compromised with afternoon. Find a really good place.
John O.: We actually - this is literally true - we would go into our bathroom, because we could close the door.
Jim: Because you could lock it.
John O.: The kids couldn't get at us. It was the best room in the house.
Jim: Daddy! Mommy!
John O.: We had our best conversations around the toilet.
Jim: There's a piece of advice.
John O.: Yeah, maybe another image that you really don't want to carry.
Jim: No, I don't want that.
John O.: Um, but find a good time. Find a good place, um, when you're not going to be hurried and you're not going to be rushed, um, and you're able to ask a question where the other person is able to receive it so that you look forward to it. I think the big thing in relational world is, um - we all live with so many should's and have to and must's and ought's and - and that's true and they're important to pay attention to, but you can't sustain life on the basis of should.
Jim: Yeah, that is so good.
John O.: And so with your spouse, to find - maybe it's - early in our marriage, we used to go out to Carl's Jr. once a week, and we'd get iced tea, because we had no money, so it was like...
Jim: Nice tea.
John O.: Iced tea.
John O.: And we looked forward to that so much, because again, it was kid-free time, and it gave us space, so it was like, oh, man, this is a reward. So a time that you really look forward to. Doesn't have to be profound. Don't put pressure on it to be this real deep, vulnerable thing. If it gets there, great. But you can't force intimacy and vulnerability.
Jim: No, that's so good.
John O.: You can make space for it.
Jim: John [Ortberg], let me ask you this. And this may be gender stereotype again, but what I'm driving at is rejection...
John O.: Oh, wow.
Jim: ...And the impact on intimacy. And again, generally - but not always - men and women deal with rejection differently. Women struggle then with trust in other things. Men tend to just get upset. You know, "You reject me?! I'll reject you!" It's competition again. I'll show you. Women don't handle it that way. Speak to both men and women, the way rejection affects our intimacy.
John O.: It can play out differently, um, but rejection is something that the strongest person in the world feels in the depth of their soul. We are made for what Dallas Willard used to call reciprocal rootedness in one another. We feel so keenly, 'cause the will is right at the core of who you are. If somebody else's will is opposed to me, if they reject me, I feel that so deeply. We have a guy in our church that actually wrote a book on the topic of rejection therapy. He was going in, trying to do entrepreneurial stuff, and he got rejected, and it killed him. So, he actually made it a point every day to deliberately get rejected by somebody. And he went to the Dunkin Donuts and asked for them to come up with a special five Olympic doughnut ring just to hear them say no. And the woman behind the counter said, I think I can do that. And so he went viral. He was videoing this with his iPhone. It is been seen by millions and millions of people. So he actually worked on rejection by deliberately courting it to teach himself that he could be rejected and still survive.
Jim: Wow. I mean, that's quite something.
John O.: That is pretty amazing.
Jim: You know, John [Ortberg], before we end, I really want to dig into our relationship with the Lord. That's most critical. You get that foundation right, so much of your life will be in a much better place. It's not a guarantee. You're still going to have struggles, but knowing the Lord and pursuing the Lord and having an understanding that he loves us unconditionally, these are hard concepts, especially if we have gone through rejection after rejection. So speak to that intimacy with the Lord. How do we really believe? If we've felt rejection in our life, how do we get to the point where we can really believe that God so loved us that he died for us? I can't embrace that.
John O.: For anybody who's listening to this right now, I just want to take you to when you think about God, what images come to your mind? Where did that get shaped? Was it by a harsh parent? Uh, was it by a Sunday school class that gave you all kinds of punitive pictures? And to spend time alone, where you're not hurried, in the presence of God, and to hear Him say over you, I love you. I delight in you. There is nothing that you can do, there is nothing that you could achieve, that could make me love you any more. There is nothing that you have done wrong that has moved you away from me. Um, for people not just to hear us say the words, but to spend the time alone with God to experience His unconditional acceptance of them, there is no replacement for that.
Jim: And don't be distracted. I mean, where I feel guilty, sometimes, is I - the very thing that will feed me and nurture me is that time with the Lord.
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: And I give myself to the busyness of life. I too frequently don't give my time to God in that way.
John O.: Well, and then - and then I'd say, um, connect acceptance from other people to acceptance from God.
John F.: What do you mean by that, John [Ortberg]?
John O.: I - years ago, I decided I was just tired of living in isolation and secrecy, and so I have a real good friend. And I decided I would tell him every single secret in my life, so that there would be nothing that I would - that would be hidden from him. But I knew him, and I could trust him really well. I'd known him for years. And I took a lot of time to review my life and just wrote down all the stuff that I was embarrassed about, ashamed of - money, sexuality, everything. And it took a couple of hours to walk through all of that. And when I got to the end of my list, I was so ashamed, and I didn't even want to look at him. And I'll never forget this moment. Rick looked me in the eye, and he said, John, I have never loved you more than I love you right now. And it felt so good. And I wanted to make up more bad stuff to tell him just to hear more, you know, because - and I realized then, you can only be loved to the extent that you're known. And you can only be fully loved, if you're fully known.
John O.: And to realize God knows me fully - there is nothing secret from God.
Jim: Well, even his words are so Christ-like.
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: I could hear the Lord saying that to us.
John O.: And that's the point. And that's the point...
Jim: You know yourself.
John O.: ...To - you know, for me then to step back and say, God's saying to me, when I am most open with Him, I have never loved you more than I love you right now.
Jim: And unfortunately, John, we so often equate that to say if I was vulnerable...
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: ... and the Lord already knows. It's not like you're, you know... getting one over on him.
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: He knows you. He knows everything.
John O.: Totally.
Jim: He knows it before you've done it.
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: So, to be vulnerable with the Lord and still feel that acceptance in Him...
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: ...That’s the key.
John O.: Yeah.
Jim: Man, this has been good, John [Ortberg]. This is so good. Your book, I'd Like You More, If You Were More Like Me, dog and cat on the cover, my wife particularly liked that image. What wonderful material. Thank you for being with us today.
John O.: Oh, it's just - it's been a joy. Thanks, guys.
John F.: All right, so get a copy of Pastor John Ortberg's book, I'd Like You More If You Were More Like Me. And, uh, we've got that, a CD, a download of our program and other helps. Uh, we're just a phone call away - 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/radio to learn more.
Jim: And, John [Fuller], let me just add we believe in the content of this. That's one of the big reasons we're here. So, for a gift of any amount we’ll send you a copy of John's [Ortberg] book, I'd Like You More If You Were More Like Me, to put a resource into your hands, to help you be the person you want to be and to have that parenting approach, that marriage approach that really is more Christ-like. And that's our commitment. If you can't afford it, still get a hold of us. We have supporters who can make it possible to put that in your hands as well.
John F.: Yeah, help us help others. Over the past year, more than 1 million people have had a stronger faith because of these radio broadcasts and the ministry of Focus on the Family. So donate today at focusonthefamily.com/radio or when you call 800, the letter "A" and the word FAMILY.
As we close, please join us next time when you'll hear how you can teach your children, in an age appropriate way, about sexual abuse and you can empower them to protect themselves.
Mrs. Lindsey Holcomb: You're slowly building that foundation. And one, it builds a trust so that if something does happen, or if they're exposed to something, or they have a question, they're gonna know mom and dad...they're safe.
End of Teaser
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John OrtbergView Bio
John Ortberg is the senior pastor of Menlo Park Presbyterian Church in the San Francisco Bay Area. He has authored numerous books on Christian living including The Life You've Always Wanted, Who is This Man? and Know Doubt. John holds a Master of Divinity and a doctorate in clinical psychology from Fuller Seminary. He and his wife, Nancy, have three grown children. Learn more about John by visiting his website, www.johnortberg.com.