Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One

Jessica Harris: It had such a hold on me that I couldn’t break. And so my senior year of high school, I was so entrenched in it that I was watching content on school computers, I was staying up late at night, my grades were suffering. And I had this moment of, I need to put this back in its box (laughs). I still felt like it had a place in my life, but realize that it had gotten way out of control.

John Fuller: Mm-hmm. That’s Jessica Harris describing her struggles with pornography and it’s a powerful addiction that was eating her alive. Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we’ll hear a lot more of Jessica’s challenging story and ultimately how God rescued her from this evil. I’m John Fuller thanks for joining us. Please be advised this, uh, is not going to be a conversation suitable for younger listeners.

Jim Daly: John, the first scripture that was ever referenced for me, I think I was 15, I made a commitment to the Lord through Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And this couple who was the mom and dad of a friend of mine in school gave me a Bible and they wrote John 10:10, and I went to that scripture and read it and it really does summarize the battle in this life that the thief, meaning Satan, comes to steal, kill, and destroy and Jesus says, “I have come that you might have life and life more abundantly.” The older I get in the faith, the more I understand that scripture.

John: Mm.

Jim: It is all about the battle of good and evil and it’s not just out there, it’s in our own heart. Everybody’s heart battles good and evil and this is the whole context for why Jesus has come to die for us because we’re sinners saved by grace. We’re living in a world as Paul the Apostle wrote, “The things I wish I did, I don’t do. And the things I shouldn’t do, I do.” And that part of the human experience.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And today, we wanna talk to an incredible, uh, young woman who headed an incredible journey and we’re going to be very bold and open so that many, many people will be helped today.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Jessica Harris is an author and speaker and she and her husband Michael have three young children. Jessica has written a book that will be the basis for our conversation today and the title is Quenched: Discovering God’s Abundant Grace for Women Struggling with Pornography and Sexual Shame. We’ve got details about that book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Jessica, welcome to the program.

Jessica: Thank you guys for having me here. I’m so excited.

Jim: First time here.

Jessica: Yes.

Jim: Yeah. And I so appreciate before we unfold the story for everyone, I just wanna say how much I appreciate your courage and your vulnerability. And you know, this is what we need more of in the church-

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … because this is where real life happens.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And some of the statistics when it comes to pornography back that up, right?

Jessica: Yes.

Jim: Um, even for women now, it’s a growing problem. It’s something in the 60s percentile of men that, uh, I think the measure is look at pornography at least once a month. 68% I think is one research result that I saw. And ironically and sadly, it’s kind of the same for Christian men in the church. It’s in the 60s, uh, 65, 68 percentile. So there’s not much difference between the world and the church. And unfortunately for women, it’s a growing number. Uh, 25, 30% of women are now experiencing an addiction or an engagement with pornography. So that’s the context for today. It is a big issue and I would only say if you wanna put your head in the sand as a believer, okay, but why don’t we talk about this so we can actually bring people help. That’s the heart and soul of this. So if you’re upset we’re talking about it, we get it, we know that it’s gonna be tender, but we believe in talking about things in the light so that the Lord can work through our hearts to make us conform better to Him, right?

Jessica: Right.

Jim: I’m sure, Jessica, that’s part of your motivation in doing this. Who wants to talk about this?

Jessica: Right (laughs).

Jim: You’d love to lock this in a closet and never talk about it again.

Jessica: (laughs) Yes.

Jim: But that’s what I mean by that courage because you were struggling with this, you’ve decided I’m gonna talk about it. Why?

Jessica: Yeah. So I mean, from where I stand now, looking back, I go, “Well, if you’re silent about the sin, then you’re silent about the grace.” But the journey that led me to that place was really just going, “God, what do you want me to do with my life?” And this is like 14 years ago and feeling like He said, “You’re gonna share your story.” I said, “Under no circumstance am I going to share my story.” Like, “Absolutely not.” And so I did it an anonymously at first, thinking that still I was the only woman in the world who had this struggle, kind of angry with God like, “I don’t wanna do is. This isn’t necessary. This isn’t needed. This is embarrassing. I’m not gonna do this.” And I shared my story anonymously and women started to email and reach out and say, “Oh my goodness, me too. I thought I was alone too.”

Jim: And that shocked you?

Jessica: It did.

Jim: ‘Cause you thought you were the only one?

Jessica: I did.

Jim: And I would say that kind of theme played out through your whole battle with pornography that many people that you would talk to about it had kind of that response. Like, “Women don’t have this problem.”

Jessica: Exactly, yes.

Jim: So it probably made you feel even more isolated.

Jessica: Yes (laughs).

Jim: Right? Even though there were people, women’s saying, “Me too.” But still the interactions I read in your book-

Jessica: Yeah.

Jim: … people were saying, “It couldn’t have been you ’cause you’re a woman.”

Jessica: And especially when you hear that from like leadership, where people that you expect to know more stories than just your own. I know my story-

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: … but if I look to you and think that you as a pastor’s wife or you as a dean of a college, no more and you’re going, “Women do not have this issue.” Then that makes me go, “Man, I really am alone.”

Jim: You know, to set the table a bit with this. You know, we’ve had some notable Christian leadership failures in this area and you know, I even talk to our leadership team at Focus and said, “It seems to me there’s three ways that we fail. Um, it’s pride, it’s sex, or it’s money.” And before, we’re too hard at casting judgment. The thing that I’m learning again is I get older is we don’t know the full story.

Jessica: Mm.

Jim: You see a symptom of something that works itself out and it becomes public, especially for pastors or Christian leaders who are trying their best to live a life that’s pleasing to God and then all of a sudden this is happening. I have found that when you peel the onion back, you’re going to find the antecedents, the beginnings of that usually in childhood. So in that regard for you, what took place is a little girl that really began to set you on this path?

Jessica: It was a few different things. I think I was… First of all, I was raised in a Christian home, so I think that’s…

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: I always want to start with that ’cause it’s not like I was raised by heathen parents. And so I was raised in a Christian home. When I was early elementary school, maybe first or second grade, my father just left. And so that impacted how I understood love. Love became something that was fragile and could break and had to be earned. It also impacted how I viewed God ’cause people said God is your father and I thought if my earthly dad can cause so much pain and so much harm and I did nothing, like I didn’t do anything wrong to deserve that, what on earth will a holy God do to me? And it just cast this image of God being ready to strike me down. And that plays into my story later because when I was introduced to pornography at 13, I thought, “This is one of those things that God’s gonna strike me down for.” Like, this is it and I can’t let anybody find this out. I can’t let God even know about this because this is one of those things that’s gonna drive Him away from me and gonna separate me from Him and this is one of the ways that I’m failing Him and He can never love me because of what I’m struggling with, because of the struggle. So that was a setup. I also experienced, um, I was sexually molested in elementary school by a classmate at a Christian School, um, who was the son of one of our church leaders. And when I resisted his continued friendship over the years, um, I was told, “Oh, you got to be nice. He’s one of the deacons’ sons. You’ve got to be kind.” There was this culture almost of you… of authority and you have to do what the church says and you have to put on this happy face and you just have to keep it together and-

Jim: Let me… let me ask you this because we have parents of 8, 9, 10 year olds watching, listening. What would have been a facilitation, uh, and this isn’t about your parents. I’m just saying in general, thinking back to that. What could parents do to better facilitate dialogue-

Jessica: Yeah.

Jim: … with that young daughter particularly, uh, where there’s potential? And of course, parents today, we… you never know raising a daughter-

Jessica: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah.

Jim: … where this interactions going to occur, at what age, but assume it could happen at a young age.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: What could have helped to facilitate your vocabulary?

Jessica: Right. So I, I have two little girls myself. They’re four and two. And with our four-year-old even, we have started to set the framework for this.

Jim: Huh.

Jessica: Um, even because the same framework that protects against something like this, protects against exposure to pornography. So talking about how our bodies are good and but there are parts of them that are meant to be private and that no one should be asking to see those parts of your body.

Jim: So that’s establishing a boundary even at four years old.

Jessica: Even at four years old.

Jim: Which is good.

Jessica: And so she even, my oldest, a few weeks ago, we had someone come over and she… my oldest was changing in her room, getting ready for the day and she looked at my friend and she said, “You need to leave the room because you are not allowed to see these parts of my body.”

Jim: Wow. That’s good.

Jessica: And my friend just, “All right.” And so she stepped out of the room (laughs). So having that kind of a dialogue and also being aware of when your kids feel unsafe because the statistics say that these sorts of incidents often happen with people that parents trust.

Jim: Right. Mostly.

Jessica: They’re family members. They’re leaders in the church.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: And so if my daughter says, “I don’t like so and so.” That is a red flag for me to figure out why.

Jim: Correct.

Jessica: Not to just to turn around and tell her, “Be nice, behave. That’s not very kind.” I want to know why. She recently told us that she doesn’t like one of our family members and so my husband and I sat down and we said, “Can you tell us why you don’t like this family member?” And we weren’t sure and she goes, “I just don’t like his mustache.” We’re like, “Okay. Whoo.”

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Jessica: (laughs).

Jim: Yeah. No, I mean, but that’s really…

Jessica: Right.

Jim: … good parenting. And those-

Jessica: Having those open conversations and…

Jim: And I think so often in the mom and dad role, we just, you know, one, you don’t wanna open that Pandora’s Box too early so we’re probably quiet too long and there’s where the vulnerability can happen when you’re not having good constructive dialogue at an age-appropriate, in an age-appropriate way. Um, that’s so important. Le- let’s move down to the exposure that you had then as a 13-year-old I think of pornography. What happened and how did that… how did that grip you?

Jessica: Great. So this is back in the age of dial-up internet and floppy disks (laughs).

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: I’m a millennial (laughs).

Jim: (laughs).

Jessica: And, um, we… Then, it was actually kind of new. This was 1999. So this was, um, new on the scene. I don’t think people really understood the dangers of pornography on the internet at that point. And I was just researching for school. Honest to goodness, just researching for a science project and there was a porn video on the website that I was on.

Jim: It just popped up.

Jessica: It’s just there. And when I clicked on it because the thumbnail was like really dark and I didn’t know what it was so I clicked on it out of curiosity, it just started springing these pop up windows like one after the other that just drew me right into-

Jim: Ha.

Jessica: … a, a site. And at 13, I remember thinking, “Oh, this is that thing that no one wants to talk about. This, ah, this is what it is.” And so then it became curiosity almost. This is that mysterious world that no one wants me to, to think about or to do anything about, but I’m going to express myself in this way ’cause it seemed safe, right? It’s not… I’m not gonna get an STD. I’m not gonna get pregnant. This is a safe way to explore this. And so it started as curiosity and then over the years, it just became this, what I would say, was a full-fledged addiction to it.

Jim: Yeah. And you know again, parents just trying to guide them in this moment, uh, really regardless of the age of their children. I mean, it’s important to be aware and develop a plan, a game plan. You mentioned in the book, um, research that shows that when children are exposed to pornography how the parents or the family members respond becomes critical.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I can only imagine, it’s such a variety, a spectrum of response. It can be shame and, “Oh my goodness, what have you done?” To, “Oh okay, no big deal.”

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, describe what is the healthy response for a parent or family member when this happens to a boy or a girl.

Jessica: Right. I think it’s important for parents to understand that pornography is not something bad your kid does. It’s a predator that is after your child. And when you frame it that way, you come at it without all of the guilt that rides on me as a parent. So if my daughter finds pornography, I’m not going, “I have failed you as a mom. Like I’m… You have failed me as a daughter.” There’s none of that. It’s more of a, “Oh, this has snuck into our home, not on my watch.” And it lets me kind of take that role of protecting her from that.

Jim: Right. So the right enemy is the right enemy. Not the child becoming the enemy.

Jessica: Exactly. And I think a lot of parents think, “How could you do this to me? You child, how could you do this to me as a mom?”

Jim: As a Christian mom.

Jessica: Right.

Jim: Or dad.

Jessica: As a Christian mom like, “We have raised you better than this.” You know (laughs)?

Jim: Right.

Jessica: And then that just tells this child, “Oh, my parents aren’t safe to talk to about this. It’s not a… it’s not a conversation we can have in this family.” And so even if they feel stuck in it and they would want to go to their mom and dad for help, mom and dad have essentially burned that bridge and said, “You can’t talk to us about this because we’re so angry at you for being here. Get yourself out of it.”

Jim: Well, my caution would be at that moment, you could do great damage in your relationship with your son or daughter. You know, I think typically it’s gonna be your son, but we’re saying not necessarily, right? That 60%-ish and 30% of women, of girls could be addicted to porn or be looking at porn. So you have to have your eyes wide open as a parent that both your daughter and your son could be impacted. But you… that reaction can really alienate and put a lifetime barrier between you if you don’t respond in a way that’s healthy.

Jessica: Right.

Jim: Let me ask you, uh, your addiction to porn continued to grow to the point that you actually wanted to get caught. That sounds odd ’cause I would think the natural thing is you’re trying to be secretive.

Jessica: Right.

Jim: You don’t want to be known for this thing. Why were you seeking to be caught you think?

Jessica: Because it was so… It had such a hold on me that I couldn’t break.

Jim: Oh.

Jessica: And so my senior year of high school, I was so entrenched in it that I was watching content on school computers, I was staying up late at night, my grades were suffering. And I had this moment of, I need to put this back in its box (laughs). I still feel like it had a place in my life, but realize that it had gotten way out of control. And when I tried to control it, when I tried to say, “Okay, no more.” I couldn’t stop. When I tried to say, “Okay two hours a day, I would still watch for hours.” And so it was this feeling of I’m out of control and I need help and I don’t know who to talk to about this and it’s a really scary conversation to start.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Jessica: Like who do I… Do I walk up to one of my pastors wives and tell her? Like, who, who do I tell about this? I don’t tell my mom. I don’t tell the church. Who am I supposed to tell? But I thought if I get caught, yes is easy. So if someone says, “Jessica, are you watching porn?” I think I can squeak out a yes. I think I can take a deep breath and say yes. But there’s no way that I can walk into a room, start the meeting and say, “Hi, I’m Jessica and I’m struggling with pornography.” Like that just seems so daunting and scary, but yes seemed really easy. So I wanted to get caught, but I also didn’t wanna get caught.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: So I was like praying to get caught, but then also trying to make sure I didn’t get caught at the same time (laughs).

Jim: Yeah, no, I get it.

John: Mm. Well, we’re talking today about addictions, specifically sexual addiction and our guest on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly is Jessica Harris. We have a lot of resources here at the Ministry to help you if this is a struggle. One of those of course would be Jessica’s book, Quenched, and you can learn more about, uh, the variety of help for you and that book in particular when you stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or you can call us. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

Jim: Jessica, y- y- you mentioned that stats kind of numb, and I think that’s true. I mean, we talk about 68% of it. What does that mean? Is it me?

Jessica: Mm-hmm (laughs).

Jim: You know, it, it has to become personal. And stats can depersonalize ’cause it’s just some number. When there’s 10 guys in a room, 6.8% of them maybe addicted to porn. That’s what that’s meaning, but who is it? Speak to the the statistics that God cares about. I thought this was really good coming out of your book.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And this is good for all of us and any of us that have some form of idolatry that we may not even recognize.

Jessica: Right. And this came from when I was actually speaking to pastors about this ’cause I think when we’re in church leadership positions, you got to channel your resources somewhere and so you look at what the need is. Oh, 68% of men, so we’re gonna pour our resources into that and it’s fair. I mean, we can’t… you can’t be everything to all people, right? But what about that one woman who’s in your church who does struggle? You know? ‘Cause God cares about those, those numbers. He cares about all, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There’s none righteous and then anyone who calls the name of the Lord can be saved. Those are the statistics that He cares about. He doesn’t care if it’s 50%, 20%, 80%. That’s what He cares about is the one.

Jim: Yeah and that’s such a good, uh, reminder of what Jesus has come to do for us, right? I didn’t come for the healthy.

Jessica: Right.

Jim: I came for those who are sick. And that’s basically all of humanity if we’re humble enough to recognize that.

Jessica: Yes.

Jim: But some people don’t get there. They think they’re better than the other person and that’s good enough and certainly got to love me. You’re probably in the most vulnerable spiritual position at that point, uh, because you think you’re so good. A major theme in your book, Quenched, is about the destructive force of shame. We’ve kind of touched on that, but I want to hit it head on. Uh, and that shame could be about all different kinds of sin again. I mean, any sin creates some form of shame. Probably because of the cultural influence, some are weighted heavier.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I think this idea of addiction to pornography carries a heavy weight of shame and it usually starts as a teenager when it’s exposed and you blow your parents up and everything you said a moment ago, “We thought we were better than this, how cou… ” Because it reflects upon us as parents and we carry the shame then that this kid who I bore is looking at something that is so terrible. But speak to that idea of shame and the need for parents to draw that down so they don’t damage their child.

Jessica: Right. Well, I think a lot of that comes from that… that reaction of parents, actually comes from our own experiences of pornography. Like talk to anybody and you would be hard-pressed to find someone who hasn’t been impacted by pornography in some way. They might not have seen it themselves, but they might have an uncle who was addicted to it and that tore apart their family. They might have a father who was, you know, struggled with it. They might have a, a sister who they… All of us have been impacted by this in some ways. So pervasive and it can be so painful as adults as we watch it tear our families apart. And then we take all of that pain and when our kids struggle with it, we just throw them 20 years in the future and picture this womanizing, home wrecker (laughs).

Jim: Right.

Jessica: Our 12-year-old child. And so I think it’s important for us as adults and as Christians to work through that healing and understanding grace in that circumstance and realizing that the decision that my 12-year-old makes now doesn’t destine them for anything at 30. Like we teach them grace and we teach them God’s forgiveness and we teach them that the choices they make now don’t doom them.

Jim: Coming in on the ending here, let’s go to the woman at the well because you do a great job connecting that biblical story with this particular issue. So how did that speak to you, the woman at the well?

Jessica: Oh, man. This was several years ago. I was just sitting and thinking on this story and I grew up in church and I call it the coloring page approach to the Bible. We just have these snippets of stories. So like you think of David and everyone’s like, “Oh, Goliath.” And that’s the happy story. We don’t have the coloring page for David and Bathsheba, right? We don’t talk about that part in church.

Jim: That’s a later conversation.

Jessica: Right (laughs).

Jim: Right? Yeah.

Jessica: And so this woman at the well, I was just thinking about that one day and thinking about Jesus being a living water, but then I just started to walk through the story and had this realization of, “Man, I’m the woman at the well.” This woman who just lived in shame and she made these choices, essentially punish herself by drawing water in the heat of the day and and I can imagine that every step was just a reminder of what she done.

Jim: And in that context for people that don’t get that.

Jessica: Right.

Jim: She went at the heat of the day where nobody else would be there.

Jessica: Right. No one else were there.

Jim: So she wouldn’t need to interact with anyone.

Jessica: Right. It’s normally like a social events where women… I joke that women do everything together. We go to the bathroom together.

Jim: Right.

Jessica: We go draw water at the well and she’s purposely choosing to be on her own or from the village needs to be on her own, but she is doing this on her own and I imagine just every step is just a reminder of you’re never gonna be good enough, you’re never gonna fit in, you’re always gonna be a failure. And this is a punishment for her, this long walk to the well. And then this day, she meets Jesus there. And He’s not supposed to be there (laughs).

Jim: Right.

Jessica: He’s, He is a Jewish man and He’s gonna start talking to her. This is all levels of scandalous. He’s breaking all sorts of cultural and ethnic norms here and He’s flipping things on their heads. And He starts talking to her and I imagine this being a defensive conversation, where she’s thinking, “You shouldn’t even be talking to me.” And she kind of opens with that when He says, “Give me some water.” She’s like, “If you knew… Like, you don’t know the rules, let me explain the rules to you. You are not supposed to be talking to me.” And then He says, “Well, you know, if you knew who I was.” And I just love kind of the banter back and forth. And then she continues to be defensive and then He pushes on that pain point of go get your husband like, “Here’s the living water. I’ve offered you living water. You want it, go get your husband.” “I don’t have one.” And then you just see the story that this whole time she’s a religious woman who struggles with shame ’cause she asks about worship. So she’s not a non-religious like and God doesn’t… Jesus doesn’t say to her, “Worship. Look, back on topic here please.” Instead, He, He offers Himself to her, He says, “I am Messiah. I’m the one who you’ve been looking for.” And as I sat there, I just thought this is such a powerful truth for women who have walked this story of God’s not disgusted with us. Sin, yes, but He welcomes us into Himself and He offers living water to quench our thirst and that offers stands for us. That offer stood for her. He knew everything she did. That’s her testimony that. She takes it back to the village. She says, “Come and see this person who’s told me everything I’ve ever done.” That was her testimony that brought the people to Jesus. And even knowing everything she ever did, He offered her living water. He offered Himself. He had a conversation with her and that just seemed so powerful to me. I thought, “Wow, the God of the universe, the Jesus of the Gospel wants to give Himself to me like, He wants to offer that to me.” And if we had that message in church, I think it would set so many people free.

Jim: That certainly would and that message of grace that Jessica experienced really does exemplify how God feels about us where nothing we could ever do will separate us from His love. That’s reassuring.

John: That’s a wonderful reassurance.

Jim: And as we’ve shared today, God knows our struggles. He knows how powerful our desires are and that how temptation can grab us. He wants to help us put a boundary on that for our good to create the intimacy in the context of marriage, which is His gift and it is healthy and good in that context. That’s why we in the Christian community need to address this topic now more than ever. We need to let people know that healing and restoration are possible and that they can be set free. Focus on the Family is here to help, to help you if you’re struggling in this area. We have caring Christian counselors who are available to hear your story, pray with you and then get started on a better more Godly path. And we have great resources like Jessica’s book, Quenched: Discovering God’s Abundant Grace for Women Struggling with Pornography and Sexual Shame. This may be the tool you need or someone you know might need it for their healing.

John: Get a copy of the book Quenched when you make a donation of any amount to Focus today. That’s our way of saying thank you for partnering with us and enabling us to make shows like this to offer resources like our counseling team and to generally in so many ways give families hope, especially at the end of the year here.

Jim: Well, let me speak to that partnership, John. Focus on the Family is listener supported. That’s why we talk about it. We need to. It means you provide the necessary fuel in the engine here for doing everything that we do, for strengthening and supporting families, providing counseling when people need it and offering resources to help those people who are hurting like Jessica was. And year in giving is where the bulk of our ministry budget comes from. So we’re looking to you for the funds that will be needed to help families in 2025. And thankfully, we have a matching opportunity going on right now where any gift you send will be doubled. That means $10 becomes 20, 50, 100 and so on. Every little bit helps. No gift is too small because when we work together, uh, God can do amazing things through all of us in the ministry of Focus on the Family.

John: We welcome your support so donate today, 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459. We’ll be happy to accept your contribution. Tell you more about Jessica’s book, Quenched, or connect you with one of our counselors. And of course, we’ll have all the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We’ll continue the conversation with Jessica Harris next time. And for now, I’m John Fuller, inviting you back then as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Day Two

John Fuller: Today on Focus on Family with Jim Daly, we’re going to be returning to a powerful story of one woman’s heartbreaking and yet transformative journey with sexual sin. And this is not a topic for younger listeners, um, so we recommend you direct their attention elsewhere. Here’s one thing that our guest last time, Jessica Harris shared.

Jessica Harris: This is such a powerful truth for women who have walked this story of God’s not disgusted with us. Sin, yes, but He welcomes us into Himself and He offers living water to quench our thirst, and that offers stands for us. And that just seemed so powerful to me. I thought, “Wow, the God of the universe, the Jesus of the gospel wants to give Himself to me.” Like, “He wants to offer that to me,” and if we had that message in church-

John: Yeah.

Jessica: … I think it would set so many people free.

Jim Daly: John, we had a, uh, I wouldn’t say challenging, a very open and honest conversation that was hopeful, uh, in the end talking about Jessica’s pain as a little girl, uh, being molested and then, uh, finding pornography as a 13-year-old and the kind of direction that took her as a girl. And we’re going to, uh, pick up that conversation today with Jessica and talk more about how Jesus intervened in her life and-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … pointed her in a healthier direction. And I said it last time, it’s, like, 68% of men in the church that look at pornography about once a month-

John: Hmm.

Jim: … and a growing number of women. I think the latest I saw was 28 or 30% of women, and so this is not-

John: Hmm.

Jim: … something that is touching just a few people. Pornography is grabbing people, both Christian and non-Christian. And it’s a powerful sexual force within us, and how do we bridle that and make it honoring to the Lord?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That is what we’re getting at today. So I’m looking forward to day two of this incredible conversation.

John: Right, uh, because Jessica shared about a road of redemption and restoration, and that’s what we want for you if you’re caught up in the sin of pornography. Uh, we want to make our counseling team available to you, and we’re just a phone call away, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459, or you can visit  focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jessica Harris is a speaker and author, and today we’re reviewing the content in her book Quenched: Discovering God’s Abundant Grace for Women Struggling with Pornography and Sexual Shame.

Jim: Jessica, welcome back.

Jessica: Thank you for having me back.

Jim: It’s kinda (laughing)… Even listening to that, it’s kind of a tough intro, right?

Jessica: Yeah, it is. (laughing)

Jim: But, um, I’m so grateful for you. I’m so grateful for your heart, for your honesty, for your desire to help others. That’s the bottom line. You talked about last time, uh, wanting to be caught when you were a teenager and not wanting to be caught-

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … all at the same time. You said you felt like if someone said, “Are you looking at porn?” you could probably take a deep breath and say yes. But you doubted you could walk into a room with somebody, an adult that you trusted and say, “Hey, I got a problem. I’m addicted to porn.” Even hearing that, as I say it, sounds like an incredibly super mature teenager that can do that-

Jessica: Right. (laughing)

Jim: … which is probably rare. Um, picking up the story, you go off to college, a Christian college, no less.

Jessica: Hmm.

Jim: Tell us what happens there.

Jessica: Right. So I went off to college after graduating high school and, and I was optimistic ’cause I thought, “Okay. My little small town church and my conservative family won’t be able to help me. But a Christian college surely, they have seen this before.”

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: “They have resources, I will be able to get help there,” but I still was not going to walk into a room and out myself. So I went off to the college. “Hey, God, I hope I get caught here, but I also don’t wanna get caught,” and I would pray these funny prayers like, “All right, God, if you don’t want me to do this anymore, you need to, like, break the internet right now.” And it would work, and so I’d be like, “See, God? You must not care that I get free ’cause you’re letting me still do this.” Um, and about maybe six weeks after being at the school, I got a summon to the dean’s office and it was, you kn- you know what you’re getting called to the dean’s office for, and so I go into the Dean’s office thinking, “This is it. This is my chance to finally start breaking free from this,” and they had printed off my internet history report. The internet use of the college was tracked, and they set it down in front of me in a folder. And they said, “Do you know it’s in the folder?” I said, “I have no idea what’s in the folder,” and I open the folder and it’s just li- web page titles and URLs, and they had, um, highlighted the ones that were obviously pornographic and the dean starts to talk about how disgusting pornography is, how sick it is, how people who look at it really need help. And I’m thinking, “Yeah, I do,” And then said, “That being said, we know this wasn’t you because women just don’t have this problem. So how dare you as a sister in Christ compromise your brothers in Christ this way by giving them your password? You are protecting them.”

Jim: Wow, they concocted a whole story.

John: Oh, my.

Jessica: They had a whole narrative.

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: And I never got that chance to say, “This was me,” because they already had their, their entire thing. You n-… “They really need help. I can’t believe you did this to them. Sign this contract saying you won’t give out your password anymore and, like, go back to your dorm room and change your password.”

Jim: Now, let me ask ’cause somebody’s got to be thinking you could have said something like, “You’ve got it all wrong.”

Jessica: Right.

Jim: Wh- why didn’t you?

Jessica: ‘Cause it takes a very mature teenager to do that.

Jim: Okay, yeah. (laughing)

Jessica: (laughs)

Jim: No, I, I hear that I just want to make sure because, you know, people would say, “Well, you had your chance. You could have corrected that, but you let it slide,” So that leaned into the don’t want to be caught category-

Jessica: Right.

Jim: … at this stage.

Jessica: And well, it as more… At this point, it was more, it was more shame-

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: … that we talked about last time feeling like the only woman in the world, and now I’ve got a dean of women at a college who I was hoping had seen this before is now saying this just doesn’t happen.

Jim: Right.

Jessica: And so then it’s like-

Jim: Wow.

Jessica: … “Wow, something is really wrong with me then.” So there was almost a terror of, “If I do say this was me, what on earth is gonna happen to me ’cause you’re telling me that you can’t help me basically.”

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: What happens now?

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: And so I did. I changed my password and I went back to my, my dorm room. And I just, I was crushed by shame from that conversation ’cause I really believed I was alone.

Jim: How did, how did that compromise with Jesus then work into this? I mean, is that at this stage now you’re in negotiations, I guess. Um-

Jessica: (laughs) So at this stage I was very much like, “God, I’m sorry. I, I know you want to love me, but apparently I am so screwed up and so unlovable, I quit. And obviously, you can’t love somebody like me.” And so I believe at 17, um, that if I couldn’t be the good Christian girl who used to be addicted to porn, if that wasn’t a story that was available-

Jim: Huh.

Jessica: … then I had no choice but to be the porn star who used to be a Christian, and I’ll have an aside right here from my years of doing this, there are so many women in the industry who have that story. Um, and so that is the road that shame took me down, and I left that college ’cause there was no sense in paying $20,000 a year (laughs) to not go into medical school, which is where I was intending to go. And went back home and God did absolutely amazing work in my life, um, in those few months after I went back home. And I rededicated my life to the Lord during that time, and I went off to Bible College and that’s where the compromise with God came. “I will do anything you want me to do. I will be a missionary to China, but you have to understand that this addiction has to come with me. I have tried everything I can. I can’t break it. There are lots of pastors who struggle with this. There’s lots of missionaries. I’m sure who struggle with this. It’ll be okay.” Like, “God, I’ll, I’ll do whatever you want me to do, but I just don’t know what to do with this. So it comes along with me. It’s a package deal.”

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: And went off to Bible college kind of with that mentality of it comes along with me.

Jim: That, that sounds to me like you hit a moment of truth in an odd way. You were saying, “God, I’ll do anything for you, but what comes along is my baggage,” to which I’m sure God says, “Fine. We’ll take care of that.”

Jessica: (laughs)

Jim: Um, it also begs this question and this point that you make in the book, which to me, i- if there’s a gold nugget, this is one of several out of your book, but where you said, “If God doesn’t have your heart, He doesn’t have you.”

Jessica: Hmm.

Jim: You don’t have to be addicted to pornography to play that game. I mean, you could be addicted to making money or whatever idolatrous thing is between you and God. That’s what that’s getting at.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: If God doesn’t have your heart, He truly doesn’t have you.

Jessica: Right.

Jim: And that is a brilliant point. I don’t care if it’s pornography or whatever it is. I would say so much of the church is caught up in that. There is something there. Could be food, could be sports, it could be the success of your children. Whatever you’re making more important than your relationship with the Lord is your point, right?

Jessica: Mm-hmm. Right, and it’s, I think as I grew up in a church that was very like, “You come to church three times on Sunday and one time on Wednesday,” and it was like this performance checklist almost. And as long as you hit the checklist, you were a good Christian, but there wasn’t necessarily a relationship there. There wasn’t a, a heart relationship there, so it was so easy to check off the boxes and then still worship something else and give your heart over to something else completely. But God wants our hearts. He wants that relationship with us, and you’re right. It, it applies to any struggle that we have.

Jim: Yeah, and I’m gonna come back to that, i- i- where you left off there when you made the compromise with God. I’ll do anything, as long as you know this comes with me. Let me ask another question though for some who are thinking about this. Pornography is really a distortion of sexual intimacy that God designed to be held within marriage. I mean, God’s bullish on sex. He created it.

Jessica: Hmm.

Jim: But He wants it in the context of fidelity because it represents our relationship with Him. And even the, the words used in Hebrew, uh, when we talk about our relationship with God, often refer to our intimate, physical relationship with our spouse. It can be the same word. And that’s the intimacy that He wants to have with us, this deep heart intimacy. Speak to the distortion and why the church particularly needs to understand this and express a healthy intimacy with our commitment to our spouse.

Jessica: Hmm. Mm-hmm. I think we need to take back the narrative, but in order to take back the narrative, we actually have to be talking. Right? (laughs)

Jim: Right.

Jessica: So the church really, um, we can totally elevate and exalt God’s view of sex. Like, sex is not dirty, it’s not bad to talk about. It’s not wrong to talk about. And I feel like what people don’t realize is pornography is, it’s a destroyer of intimacy because as a consumer of pornography, you know zero things about those people in those scenes. And so you are watching the most intimate, physical act that two people can partake in and you know nothing about them, and they know nothing about each other. And when I was 17, part of my story was I sent images to somebody, and I tell people in that moment it’s like my soul died. Like, the inside of me just shriveled up because He didn’t care about my dreams and ambitions. He didn’t care about my favorite color. He knew nothing about me, and yet I had given him my body in a way.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: It’s so destructive, and I think if, as the church, we would take back this message of it is intimacy, and it reflects God’s heart for us and the relationship that He wants to have with us too, but then also goes back to that is God a checklist that you’re doing? Is He a performance or is it a relationship with God? Because if we don’t have that relationship with God, then we don’t understand it in a relationship with other people too.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: And so as we’re helping people come out of pornography, one of the things that they struggle with is intimacy and this, like, being fully known is terrifying. (laughs)

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: Like, it’s, it’s a terrifying thing to be fully known.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: And I think as a, as a church, we have an opportunity to take back that narrative too. Like, it is a good thing to be known and there’s grace for all of the, the mess-ups and all of the failures. It is a good thing.

Jim: Jessica, in the book you make an observation about confession, which I thought was really interesting, you know, um, something that happens in a police station. You go in, you get interrogated, you’re being charged with a crime. And maybe they have evidence or what have you, but it’s pretty cold and sterile. Um, help me understand that comparison and how we as Christians may do that inadvertently with the Lord like He’s our great Inquisitor.

Jessica: Right. (laughing) I just feel like we have this idea of confession in the church that is, come forward, share your wrong, so you can receive your, your punishment. And that’s not what the Bible presents confession as. It’s not a step up and own it ’cause God already knows, right?

Jim: Right. (laughs)

Jessica: So confession is something we do in our community. So that we can find healing. That’s what the Bible says. It’s confess so that you may be healed, not so that you may be strung out to dry and punished. Like, it’s, it’s come forward and confess so that you can experience the grace and community in the body of Christ. That’s what it’s meant for. It’s meant to tear down shame, not introduce it. But in the church, I feel like so often we have it set up as a way of putting shame on somebody. “Oh, you did that. Well, now here is your mantle that you, and this label that you wear.”

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: And that’s not what it’s supposed to be for. It’s supposed to be a way almost of summoning help. I’m saying, “Hey, this is something that I’m struggling with. This is the way that I have fallen,” and then you’re supposed to call all my brothers and sisters in Christ to me to pray and to, to communicate that grace that God has for us. And we just, we’re not great at that in the church I don’t feel like. We don’t really… When we share testimonies upfront for instance, we don’t have a lot of in process stories.

Jim: Yeah, tidied up and done.

Jessica: All nice and done.

Jim: (laughs) Gift wrapped.

Jessica: With the conclusion.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: You know, I used to do this, I used to do that, then I met Jesus and poof. Now my life is like fairytales and butterflies, and that’s not it. It’s not it.

Jim: It’s not typical.

Jessica: And then when I’m someone who’s struggling in the church. I see that and I go, “Huh, I must be doing this Jesus thing wrong because my life’s not there yet.”

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: But how freeing would it be for someone to get up and say, “Hey, I am still figuring out how to to deal with anger.”

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: ‘Cause we always, like you said, we weigh this so heavily. It’s like-

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: … “Pornography or sex, oh, my goodness.” But, what if someone got up and said, “You know I’m still dealing with greed.”

Jim: Pride.

Jessica: I’m still dealing with pride.

John: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah, I know. It’s true. (laughing)

Jessica: I’m still dealing with jealousy.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: I’m still impatient with my kids. And God is working on me through that. How can we grow together as a church if we treated confession as a call to help in healing?

Jim: Yeah, and I’m really… Uh, I don’t know how to address what you’re saying there because I think there’s two neon billboards in the New Testament, salvation through Christ and Christ alone, and don’t become a Pharisee. I mean, those are kind of the two billboards, right? Neon signs, and we’re pretty good at the first, but we’re very bad at the second. It’s almost like a predisposition of human beings to have something in order, and then you look down at people that don’t have that together.

Jessica: Hmm.

Jim: And it, it is just the weirdest thing about our flesh, especially as Christians, like you said, confession is for healing. We should be the great confessing church to one another. “This is something I’m struggling with. Can you help me? Can you hold me accountable?”

Jessica: Hmm.

Jim: “Can you be my good friend?” Um, but we don’t have a practice of that, and it’s so disappointing. I think, you want to see the church a fire again like the first, second century? If we acted that way, I think many, many people would come.

Jessica: Yeah.

Jim: And be healed.

Jessica: ‘Cause it’s real.

Jim: Yeah, because it’s real. (laughing). So Jessica, all this has happened. I mean it starts at eight, nine years old, 13 with the accidental introduction to pornography, then this deep, deep valley you go through. Um, even off to Bible school and all that. How did it finally get sewn up for you? How did the Lord say, “Okay, it was fair. You made the compromise with me. I’d go anywhere in the world for you, Lord, but this baggage is coming with me.” How did you recheck that baggage to a different location?

Jessica: Yeah, oh, it was actually at the Bible college. There was, um, an all-women’s meeting, and the dean of women got up and talked about the idea of strongholds and how a stronghold is an area of our life where the enemy still has ground. And it’ll keep us from being able to effectively serve the Lord ’cause it’s a place where we’ve essentially been flanked, and the enemy is behind us and able to kind of, like-

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: … attack us from behind. And I thought, “Man, this is me.” Like, “I feel like my prayers are bouncing off the wall, and I can’t grow in God.” Like, “What’s the answer?” And, (laughs) and she said, “We know some of you struggle with pornography,” a room full of Christian women. She said, “We know some of you struggle with pornography, and we want to help you.”

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: And so in that moment. I had a choice to share that-

Jim: Wow.

Jessica: … this was my struggle. And I did not want to and it was like I imagine God’s saying, “Jessica, you’ve always been afraid of starting this conversation. They literally have a piece of paper in front of you that says, ‘My name is J- blank, and my stronghold is blank.’ And you, like, (laughs) just have to fill out the paper.” And I was so angry ’cause I thought, “Why can’t I have a cute Christian sin? You know, why can’t my struggle be that I don’t read my Bible enough as opposed to, like, I struggle with pornography,” but I went ahead and I wrote, “My name is Jessica Harris, and I struggle with pornography. My stronghold is pornography,” and handed that into the dean staff. They came to my room later and I thought, “Here we go I’m getting sent home. They are going to send me home,” and they knocked on the door. and they said, “Jessica, what you wrote in that paper was brave, and we’re gonna help you.” And I went through a, a program where I met one-on-one with the dean every week and we walked through a resource for men, but walked (laughing) through a resource for struggling with pornography. And on top of that they had a team of women who helped answer the question of who is Jessica without pornography, ’cause I had become so dependent on it.

Jim: Uh-huh.

Jessica: Who am I?

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: Who am I without it? How do I manage my emotions? How do I deal with relationships in a healthy way? And they answered those questions, and so kinda that two punch approach helped me to, to find freedom and to walk in Him.

Jim: I want to mention that person’s watching, it, it’s a high percentage of someone who’s watching or listening to the program that is snared by pornography. What can they do? I mean they’ve tried all the things that you’re talking about. They’ve tried to not get caught. They’ve tried to get caught. They, what can they do to get on that healthy, reparative road with the Lord?

Jessica: So my, my first thing that I always tell them is, and I know it’s scary because I’ve been there, right? But you have to tell somebody. And that’s not to come forward and take your punishment, that is to tear down that wall of shame that says, “I’m hiding this, I’m keeping this a secret,”  ’cause shame will tell you to run. Shame will tell you to hide. Shame will pretend to protect you. And it will tell you that your relationships are not safe, that they’re not stable, and you can not share this with anyone. And so our first enemy almost in this battle is actually shame ’cause if I think that God wants something to do with me. And I have shamed myself into isolation from God, even, I am hopeless to find freedom from this.

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: If I don’t have Jesus, like, fighting for me, I am not getting free. And if shame has taught me like, “God wants nothing to do with me,” then my first enemy is actually shame. It’s not pornography. It’s not what I’m struggling with. It’s the shame that’s keeping me trapped there.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: And so if you want freedom, you go to war with shame, and the first way you do that is you say, “I refuse to be afraid to be known. And I am going to tell somebody this,” whether that’s a pastor or a counselor or someone, you tell somebody because again that’s where we experience grace and community. And shame will drive you away from that, but grace always calls us to it.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: Grace calls us to community. Grace calls us to restoration. It calls us to relationship, and so if you want to walk in grace, your first step is to sit down with somebody and say, “This is really hard for me to say.”

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: “I’m not proud of this. I’m not telling you this ’cause I’m bragging. (laughs) This is really hard for me to say, but this is part of my story. And I need help,” or, “I want you know,” or whatever your purpose or hope is for sharing with that person.

Jim: Yeah. Well, I so appreciate that, and I think that is the first step. And we want to be that place of help for people, and we have caring Christian counselors and a great phone team. I’d encourage you to call us. That’s why we’re here. We’ve been doing it for, you know, 45 years, and you won’t surprise us. We know a lot about how humanity behaves. We’ve been answering those questions. I wonder, John, how many millions of phone calls-

John: Hmm.

Jim: … over those 45 years Focus has managed.

John: Yeah, it’d be an interesting number.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Yeah.

Jim: And it’s okay. It’s a safe place and we’re going to provide that help that you need, including getting a copy of Jessica’s great book Quenched into your hands. I think it’s a tool that all of us need no matter what we’re struggling with, uh, but particularly for those struggling with pornography, particularly for women. But I’m sure men can benefit from the read as well. Um, these are universal things that entrap us, and the way out as Jessica has clearly described is to deepen your relationship with the Lord. I do want to ask you, Jessica, ’cause people are going to say, “What’s the end of the story here?” You thought you could never get married once you shared the story and it was out there that you had this addiction, and yet God even, uh, saw to those details.

Jessica: Yes, He did. So I have… My first book is a self-published memoir, um, that I, I made for a pastor’s conference that I was speaking at. I thought, “I only got 40 minutes to speak, but I can write more.”

Jim: (laughs)

Jessica: “And so I’ll give them this book so that they’ll have more of the story,” and I was dating somebody at the time. And he almost gave me the courage to do the book. I thought, “Okay, God, thank you for giving me the hope of a future family. Now I’ll write this book for you.” And, uh, (laughs) as I finished writing the book, we broke up.

Jim: Oh, my.

Jessica: And I thought, “That’s it. It’s over.”

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: I’m forever going to be the woman who talks about porn and no man’s ever going to want me. Well, well, (laughs) somebody, his name is Michael bought that book to be able to, he’s a pastor, to be able to work with the people that he works with.

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: He read that book. And he said, “I see. I see a whole and redeemed and grace-filled woman of God. And I want her.” (laughs)

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: And-

Jim: Wow.

Jessica: … so he reached out to me via email. Now in the field I work in I get a lot of emails that are-

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: … from a lot of questionable men, and so (laughs) I get this email from this man claiming to be a pastor and claiming to want a case of my books and I said, “You can have the books, but I’m not going to have coffee with you.” And, um, we continued to talk back and forth, and we got married a year later.

Jim: Hmm. And now you have three kids. (laughs)

Jessica: And now we have three kids, and he-

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: … he’s just so supportive-

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: … of this ministry and of what I do. We got married, and two days later, I was in Mexico speaking and he sat in the audience and came up to me afterwards and he was like, “I’m just so proud of you.” And so here this thing that I thought was just going to be a lifetime of shame, kind of a lifetime of battling shame of being that girl who talks about porn and, like-

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: … no one’s gonna ever be able to see past that. God has so blessed with a man who doesn’t see that.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: He just doesn’t see it. It doesn’t come up-

Jim: It’s the heart of God.

Jessica: … it doesn’t come up in our-

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: … our marriage at all.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: Like, it, it’s not a thing that he’s, like, afraid. Like, it’s just not. It’s part of our life and that it’s my ministry and that’s the extent of it.

Jim: Well, it’s a beautiful end of that story. I wanted to make sure we heard that because that’s the right end-

Jessica: Hmm.

Jim: … and, uh, and yet a beginning, right?

Jessica: Yeah.

Jim: With the kids now and everything else. So thank you for being with us. It’s been really, really good.

Jessica: Thank you for having me.

John: What an incredible conversation with Jessica Harris these past couple of days on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And as Jim said here at the ministry, we have resources to help you. Uh, if you or someone you know is struggling with pornography, let me urge you to call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, uh, to speak with one of our caring Christian counselors. We’ll schedule a time for them to give you a call back, and that’s a free phone consultation thanks to the generosity of our donors. I will also recommend you get a copy of Jessica’s book Quenched: Discovering God’s Abundant Grace for Women Struggling with Pornography and Sexual Shame. We have copies of that here at  focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: And John, I really believe Jessica’s message is important for families to get a hold of especially if you’re raising daughters, or if you’re involved in mentoring or teaching teen girls. Uh, certainly, your church library should have a copy of this book, and I’d like to put a copy of Quenched into your hands when you send a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family. That’s our way of saying thanks for supporting the work we’re doing here together to strengthen and equip parents and give families hope when they face trauma or challenges like Jessica experienced. Here at the end of the year, our Focus team is evaluating our budget and the resources we have in place for 2025, and based on our research, we anticipate hearing from more than 200,000 families who will be working through a significant crisis in this next year. And that’s why we need to hear from you. A monthly pledge or a one-time gift will enable us to respond to these hurting parents and their children. And here’s the good news, uh, some generous Friends of Focus have provided us with a matching opportunity, which means anything you donate will be doubled, uh, to have twice the impact, and that means more marriages being saved, more parents equipped. And more pre-born babies saved from abortion, and that puts a smile on my face.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Uh, so can we count on your generous support here at the end of the year?

John: Yeah, donate today, double your gift and get a copy of Quenched by Jessica Harris when you call 800-232-6459. That’s 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY or donate and request resources and get help at  focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.