Day One:
Marc Cameron: There’s birth order that can shape family dynamics and there can be love languages. There can be different temperaments that we have. But these are really childhood emotional injuries. There’s a difference between who we are and how we are. If you were born an introvert or an extrovert, that’s who you are. You can’t change that part of you. But attachment is about how you’ve learned to bond with others. That’s a how you are and that part can actually be changed about us.
John Fuller: That’s Marc Cameron, describing some of the reasons why we think the way we do, feel the way we do, and how all of that affects our behavior and the ways we interact with others. Welcome to another “Best of 2025” edition of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Today we’ll hear about “attachment styles” or “love styles,” and how they affect relationships, specifically, your marriage. I’m John Fuller and hanks for joining us today!
Jim Daly: John, we recorded a fascinating conversation earlier this year with a panel of experts who helped us review different ways that we express love — in healthy and unhealthy ways.
This “love styles” content was originally developed by Milan and Kay Yerkovich, who’ve been on this program many times in the past. They were part of our panel — along with Marc and his wife, Amy. The Cameron’s were trained by the Yerkovichs and are taking over their ministry to couples and families.
This content was so helpful for husbands and wives that it became part of our “Best of” collection of programs this year, and I’m eager to review it again today.
John: All of this was based on a book that Milan and Kay wrote called Discover Your Love Style, Enhance Your Marriage. And you can learn more about that and our guests and a really good book at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
And Jim, here’s how you began this “Best of” conversation with our panel on today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: Milan, let’s start with you. Uh, we want to get into the individual stories, each of yours in a minute, but let’s start with the key terms that we are talking about, like emotional attachment and the, what you’ve termed are, love styles. Um, what is emotional attachment? How does it translate into how we react or interact with other people?
Milan Yerkovich: We were made in the image and a likeness of God. And so, we resemble God as a- in comparison to all of the rest of creation. And we have two parts to our being, a logical, thinking, linear side. We also have an emotional side.
Our God is an emotional God. He is also a logical and linear God. So, being made in the image and likeness of God, we have the capacity to think and feel. Now, often in our society, in our schools, in our work, we don’t acknowledge feelings and emotions very much. We hardly acknowledge them at all.
But God is … wants us to be able to do so. And in our relationships, we’re supposed to be people who can access and have emotional intelligence so we can describe our inner selves as Jesus did the night before He died, when He said, “My soul is distressed to the point of death. Come watch and pray with me.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Hmm. It’s so true and so good, and we pay little attention to it actually. And, uh, you guys are so brilliant, really, at identifying those things usually that take place in our childhood, that shape these attitudes-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that we have. Uh, Kay. You’ve identified several love styles. Take us through the list and just give us a quick definition of each-
Kay Yerkovich: Sure.
Jim: … so we have some common glossary here.
Kay: All right. So, there’s five love styles. The avoider is, uh, a detached person. They don’t know feelings and needs. The pleaser is someone who is, uh, always wanting to make everybody happy. Harmony is their key word, but when it comes to difficult emotions, or especially conflict, they avoid that as well.
Uh, avoiders avoid conflict, so do pleasers, uh, but for different reasons. Avoiders avoid conflict because it might get messy with emotions. Pleasers are fearful of conflict. Then we have the vacillators. Vacillators are ambivalently attached. They feel like very idealized in the beginning and excited, but easily disappointed.
So, when vacillators get disappointed, they protest. And then you have people who were raised in just very difficult homes, and they would fall more in the category of the controller or the victim, and these people have a lot of trauma, and our heart really goes out to them. Um, the controller controls, because their homes were so unpredictable growing up, that they need to have control for predictability. And victims learn to tolerate the intolerable, and so they feel, um, the intolerable is quite normal to them.
Jim: Ah, that’s amazing. The, uh, in context, I mean, that’s what the book is filled with, are those examples, and then how we interact, uh, with each other. Marc and Amy, let me get you in here. I want you to explain this statement. I’ve kind of alluded to it, uh, but this is it, and this might be the question. Most marital problems don’t originate in marriage. They originate from your family of origin.
Marc: Well, so everything that we know, we have learned from somewhere, and everything that you’ve learned has been taught to you. You’ve had a teacher. So, everything that we know about emotions and about relationships, we’ve had teachers, and our first teachers are in our families of origins. They are our parents.
And so, they teach us how do we learn how to recognize our emotions, and how do we learn how to link emotions to needs? Every emotion has a need. If I feel misunderstood, then I need to be understood. If I feel unheard, then I need to be heard. So, here’s a definition of emotional intelligence for you. Emotional intelligence is understanding what emotions are driving my behaviors to get a corresponding need met.
Jim: Hmm.
Marc: And so, we learn in our families of origin, uh, if those things are, uh, recognized and attended to. So, for instance, using those examples, I- I just gave you here, if I don’t feel heard, then maybe I- I need to raise my voice to be heard.
So, that’s the behavior. Or maybe I- I realize I’m not gonna get heard, so I just go quiet, and I just shut down.
John: Hmm.
Marc: And now when we get into marriage, those things start to play out again all over, because we just do what we’ve learned to do.
Jim: Yeah. Amy, you guys refer to this as, like, dance steps.
Amy Cameron: Yes.
Jim: So, how- how does that resemble a dance step?
Amy: Well, Milan and Kay coined the term, “attachment core pattern therapy.” So, there’s attachment research, but what they did with the research was how their attachment styles dance. So, the avoider-pleaser, what does conflict look like for them? For the vacillator-vacillator, what does conflict look like for them?
And so, the dance patterns are very different because you have this attachment style over here that doesn’t really like conflict, and then you have this attachment style that’s not afraid to step up to the plate and, you know, confront.
Milan: (laughs)
Amy: So, learning, um, like, learning the dance of my own reactivity really helped me because, you know, reactivity, you know, we think of our nervous system going into fight or flight. I had to realize, hey, like, when I’m angry, like, what’s underneath there? And usually there’s an unmet need that you can link back to childhood. And it’s nice to be able to flesh that out with your spouse and develop empathy as you dance together.
Jim: Yeah. No, it’s good. I- I kind of referred to that as the triggers. You know-
Milan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … we do a lot of counseling here at Focus-
Amy: Oh, yes. (laughing).
Kay: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and we have caring Christian counselors for couples to call us.
Milan: You- you’re right. Right.
Jim: But we get so capable in a marriage to push each other’s triggers.
John: Ah.
Jim: And- and then, I don’t know why we find that useful, but somehow it just continues to repeat itself, you know? Uh, Kay, let me jump to you-
Kay: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and you guys can answer that if you’d like to in the way that you answer these other questions. But I want to ask you, Kay, um, you’re a classic avoider.
Kay: Mm-hmm.
Jim: This is in the book, so I’m not disclosing something.
Kay: Oh, no. I- we talk about it very openly.
Jim: Some wife out there’s gonna, “How could you say that about her?” You’re an avoider.
Kay: Yes.
Jim: Describe the avoider, how those things were learned, the environment that you had-
Kay: Okay.
Jim: … and then how that led into some conflict for you and Milan.
Kay: All right. Well, I grew up in a home that never once talked about feelings. Um, if I got mad, my dad said, “You’d better stop crying, or I’m gonna give you something to cry about.”
John: Hmm.
Kay: If I was sad or if I was mad, he got madder still. My mom got very anxious around emotions. So, avoiders learn to shut down emotions. They’re not well-received. They’re not entertained, they’re not, uh, sought out. And, in fact, sometimes they cause difficulty, uh, in my family. So, I learned to shut down emotions, and if you, like Marc said, if you start to shut down emotions, you s- you shut down needs as well, because they link together.
So, avoiders become independent. My family valued, uh, responsibility. They valued productivity. Um, if there were any accolades, it was for getting some, uh, job well done. And so, when I married Milan, um, this was very normal to me. The avoider attachment isn’t … I- I didn’t have a lot of empathy because empathy comes from another person giving you empathy, giving you comfort, um, seeing a distressed feeling or distress in your life, and seeking you out, and asking you to put words to that.
So, I didn’t have words for my inner self. If you asked me what I felt, I said, what all avoiders say, “Fine.”
Jim: Yeah.
Kay: Uh, and-
Jim: Let me ask you-
Kay: Yeah.
Jim: … with friendships, just to add that-
Kay: Yeah.
Jim: … lesser intimate quality in here, would they have described you as, eh, kind of cool emotionally, you know, I don’t know that I feel attached to Kay?
Kay: Uh, yes.
Jim: I’m just trying to describe what those friendships might look like, to help people.
Kay: I think- I think the avoider attachment goes across the board. Um, I think friends would’ve described me that way. Um, I think that avoiders, if- if you don’t know how you feel or you don’t entertain your distress or learn to process with people what you’re going through, then you’re not going to think to do that with another person.
I didn’t think, “Well, John might be having a hard day, or he doesn’t look too good. I think I’m gonna ask him about it,” and it’s like, he’ll figure it out. He’s fine.
Jim: (Laughs) Right. Milan, you kind of hit it, but I do want to, eh, dig a little deeper on your bent, so that pleaser mentality. Just again, describe that bouncing off of Kay’s descriptions and what does that look like day to day for a pleaser to live through life?
Milan: It’s miserable.
Jim: (Laughing) But you’re pleasing everybody.
Milan: No.
Jim: We love people like you.
Milan: No, it’s-
Kay: Well, that’s true.
John: (laughs.
Milan: … it’s- it’s miserable because Jesus was not a fearful proximity seeker to try and make everybody smile so everybody would feel good so everybody would have a smile on their face. You know, my nickname used to be Smilin’ Milan. I would smile because if you smiled, then I would feel that I was okay.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Hmm.
Milan: Because in my home, if there were no smiles, it meant trouble was coming.
John: Hmm.
Milan: So, my smile was an attempt to get everybody to smile so I could feel comfortable. It was for me. So, when I was asking Kay, how is she, it was for my benefit, I was asking, not really for her.
Jim: Hmm.
Milan: So, her avoidance and dismissiveness, I was very keyed in and hyper-vigilant about other people and what they were thinking and feeling, ’cause that’s what I was at home. I had to see if there was a storm coming, what was the look and the mood on people’s faces.
Kay: Mm-hmm.
Milan: And so, I was constantly reading people, trying to figure out what’s going on and what can I predict is going to be true for the rest of the day.
John: Hmm.
Milan: So, I then approached my relationship with Kay, and she’s also an introvert, so she’s quiet, but silence at my home, growing up, meant a storm was coming.
Jim: Yes, a problem.
Milan: So, a problem.
Jim: Yeah.
Milan: So, it unnerved me, so I’d over-pursue her-
Jim: Hmm.
Milan: … and then that would unnerve her.
Jim: Right. (laughing) Thus, the dance.
Kay: Thus, the dance.
Milan: Thus, the dance.
Kay: Yes, there it is.
John: Yeah.
Milan: And it was a bad dance.
John: Yeah.
Milan: We don’t do that anymore. She’s not an avoider anymore, and I am rarely a pleaser anymore, and we have such a great relationship.
Jim: Yeah.
John: Hmm.
Marc: But- but you’re right, Jim. On the surface, people like pleasers because they’re very easy-going and they want to take care of you, but as Milan is saying, it’s not really for your benefit, it’s really for their ease.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah. I say that because I think I know one. Me!
John: (Laughing) This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and, uh, we’ve got a table full, as Jim said earlier. We’ve got Milan and Kay Yerkovich here, and Marc and Amy Cameron as well. We’re talking about the love styles, and I know you’re gonna benefit from, uh, this book, uh, and all the content associated with the ministry that the Yerkoviches have started, and the Camerons are now kind of assuming.
So, uh, contact us today to get a copy of the book, How We Love: Discover Your Love Style, Enhance Your Marriage. Uh, you’ll find the details at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Uh, Marc, I understand you and Amy are both vacillators. I think when- when Kay was describing vacillators, she definitely looked at the two of you. (laughing).
Marc: Yeah.
Jim: So- so. Now we’re all desperate. Okay. We have- we have avoider, we have pleaser. What is the vacillator, ’cause you’re gonna speak to it from experience?
Marc: Yeah. So, let me clarify this too. We are actually in recovery right now. So, Kay is a recovered-
Kay: Yeah.
Marc: … or a recovering avoider.
Jim: Okay.
Marc: Milan is a recovering pleaser, and we’re a-
Jim: That’s fair.
Marc: … a recovering vacillators, because here’s the good news. The good news is we don’t have to remain this way. Um, so, but what a vacillator is, a vacillator grows up in a home where they get intermittent connection growing up. Now, sometimes that has to do with- it’s very obvious. Um, they may have parents who divorce, and they bounce back and forth between custody, or they may have a parent who, um, lives out of town and they don’t see them as often, but sometimes it’s a parent’s job.
So, what happens, uh, that takes them, uh, away traveling or something like that, or they work shift work. And so, the comings and the goings are irregular for a- a child. And so, what happens for the vacillators, they get some connection that they enjoy, and then they’re left to wait on connection. And then the waiting, they feel unseen, unknown, misunderstood, and they get mad.
And so, when the parent comes back to give them the attention, they wanna pout, they wanna sulk, they want to demonstrate their feelings and show the parent, “I’m upset that you made me wait,” hoping that the parent will pursue them and come after them and- and not do that again.
Jim: Hmm.
Marc: And then they grow up, they go into adulthood looking for this consistent connection that he didn’t have as a child, and when they meet someone, they are all in. They love the dating phase.
Jim: Yeah. The dating phase is good.
Marc: ‘Cause it’s all about time and attention and connection.
Jim: And then, of course, when you get married, kind of the dating elements fade a little bit. Amy, describe that for you, as a vacillator. I mean, I- did- when you use the- the term clingy-
Amy: (laughs).
Jim: … is that a vacillator? I don’t know. Like, someone in the relationship is constantly-
Amy: It could be.
Jim: … tapping you for input and affirmation, and…
Amy: It could be, but yeah, timeline story for me kinda starts, you know, my parents. Unfortunately, my dad committed suicide at age seven.
Jim: Hmm.
Amy: And at that point, my mom just kind of- that disconnect happened, you know?
Jim: Yeah.
Amy: She disconnected and then, you know, kind of fell into addiction and stuff, and, you know, I kind of grew up and she kind of digressed. And so, that created that imprint. And so, kind of tracing back that imprint is very important because, you know, then go onto the dating phase.
Like, vacillators love the dating phase. Like, there’s focus, there’s connection. Like, they mistake intensity for intimacy. And so, they just swing into it, all into it. And I do have some pleaser in me. Uh, my grandparents were great. Uh, they raised me in the Baptist church, but at 18 it was, like, I moved in with my boyfriend and they’re, like, “When’s the wedding?”
You know, like, and that’s gonna solve everything, right? So, I got married, but, unfortunately, um, you know, that marriage ended in infidelity, but I didn’t really know who I was at 18, and neither did he, to be fair, you know? And so, I had even further disappointment.
You know, I did have a beautiful daughter out of the deal, um, but when I met Marc, same thing. Now, I had a lot more head knowledge of box checks of, like, you know, I want a Christian that, you know, applies the values, walks the walk, talks the talk. So, we married, but that- that intensity for intimacy was there, and we did not understand how to resolve conflict.
Jim: Yeah.
Amy: So, when real life came, you know, blended family, school, all that disconnect, made to wait, that created that storm again of, you know, disappointment. And so, the vacillator is a great term because clinical term is anxious-ambivalent, and I don’t really identify myself as an anxious person, but the anxiety is being made to wait. So, you go from these high hopes to deep disappointment, and that’s the swing.
Jim: Yeah. Now, we think in that context, that classic line of expectations is part of that. You have these expectations of high-
Amy: Yes.
Jim: … uh, fulfillment.
Amy: So, that’s what the book defines as idealism.
Jim: Yes.
Amy: So, the higher it is, the further it’s gonna fall off that pedestal.
Jim: Yeah. Marc, in your context as a vacillator, and this is good, I’m sure people are going, “Wow-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … this is describing me,” and that’s what we want. We want you to connect with these styles, because I’m sure, like anything, like Love Languages, or Kevin Leman’s Birth Order, there are patterns that you guys have touched on too that are in the human race.
These are God, you know, God-given, and then the things that this life corrupts in us, these are the attributes that we need to identify to have healthier God-honoring relationships. Marc, you also, as a vacillator, you were married before too. Is that resonating, what Amy’s saying?
Marc: Yeah. I, uh, I’ll give a little bit of my story growing up. So, I grew up with, uh, a pleaser mom and, uh, a vacillator dad. Um, but, growing up, it always felt uncomfortable with my dad. He was socially awkward. Um, he, uh, didn’t know how to interact well with others or connect well with us. And it wasn’t until adulthood when a couple of my nieces and nephews were diagnosed on the spectrum, we realized that my dad was likely on the spectrum.
Jim: Hmm.
John: Hmm.
Marc: And so, even though my parents were together when I was close to my dad, it was uncomfortable, but I longed for a dad who I could connect with.
John: Mm-hmm.
Marc: And so, that’s how the imprint formed in me. And so, I have a similar story to Amy, in that I met and married my spouse, uh, my first spouse very quickly. Uh, we had a child and then she left. There was infidelity involved on her part.
And then, I was a single dad for about six years, and then I met Amy, and we both had two seven-year-olds- seven-year-olds at the time, and, as Amy mentioned, we mistook intensity for intimacy, And we were all in, in that dating phase, and we got married within three months.
And then, that real life settled in, and we let each other down. And then, the vacillator, when they get let down, they play the anger card, they get mad, they pout, they sulk, they give a demonstration of their feelings, just like they learned to do when they were younger.
Jim: And this is key, though. You- you both are believers in Jesus.
Amy: Right.
Jim: I mean, you have that capacity to read the Word, know the Word. But again, like so many of us, if you’re not aware and you don’t put, um, corrections into practice, you’ll just be doing the same dance for decades.
Amy: Right.
Marc: Well, these love styles, they’re- Milan and Kay’s calling them love styles, but they’re attachment styles. As Milan mentioned, there’s 80 years of research in this. And so, yes, there’s birth order that, um, can shape family dynamics, and there can be love languages. There can be different temperaments that we have. But these are really childhood emotional injuries. There’s a difference between who we are and how we are.
John: Hmm.
Marc: If you are born an, uh, introvert or an extrovert, that’s who you are. You can’t change that part of you. But attachment is about how you’ve learned to bond with others. That’s a how you are, and that part can actually be changed about us.
Jim: And often, I’m sure we would think of that as a coping mechanism, and the more serious-
Marc: It is.
Jim: … these issues are-
Kay: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … the more serious those coping mechanisms become. It could be drug addiction, alcoholism, other things to cope with the pain of life.
Milan and Kay, let me come back to you. In your book, How We Love, you describe, uh, a two-faceted love style, known as chaotic, the controller-victim. So, those are the last two. Let’s describe those for the audience. Uh, controller-victim, under that banner of chaos, which is interesting to me, because chaos is such a term for sin entering the world.
John: Hmm.
Kay: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Chaos begins when sin entered the world, and God’s Shalom is not present-
John: Hmm.
Milan: That’s right.
Jim: … His peace. So, this is really intriguing to me, spiritually.
Kay: Well, the controller and the victim come from chaos, themselves. Many times, these homes have addictions. There may be physical abuse, there may be neglect, there could be sexual abuse, but the child has no rhyme or reason to connection.
In my home, if we all played the avoider game, everything went more smoothly. Or in your home, if you were the pleaser, you could sometimes win back that angry mom. In this home, nothing works.
John: Hmm.
Kay: And so-
Jim: It’s just chaos.
Kay: It’s just chaos. There’s no way to predict, and there’s more harm than good love lessons.
Milan: There’s fright without solutions for the child.
Jim: Yeah.
Kay: Yes.
Jim: Hmm.
Kay: So, in that kind of a situation, the more feisty kids will grow up and, at some point, usually take on the dominant parent. And they will go toe to toe. Many times, they leave home early, or they’re put in foster care. Or, um, you know, there may be court-ordered things that happen. The parents may go to prison.
And so, the feistier kid is more likely to become the controller because they- they are never going to be in that one-down position again. Childhood was one-down, humiliation, um, shame, terror. So, they’re gonna control their world, and I don’t- I don’t think it’s a conscious thought. I think it’s a response to pain.
Milan: It’s an-
Jim: Yeah.
Milan: … emotional response.
Kay: It’s an emotional response to pain.
Milan: Yeah.
Kay: And many times, when we meet a controlling person, they don’t even really know why they’re so controlling. And we explain it’s for predictability because your childhood had none. And then the victim is …
Milan: Well, the victim, as you said earlier, has learned to tolerate the intolerable in this dangerous setting. Um, and they, again, were a child who was frightened, but couldn’t go to the parents for comfort-
Jim: Hmm.
Milan: … because a parent who’s supposed to be a comfort isn’t there for them in that role. The parent is dangerous. So, that’s why, to your point a moment ago, Jim, that we turned to other things to comfort ourselves. This is the origin, in many cases, for addiction.
If I can’t go to somebody for help… Because we’re told to comfort one another, we’re told to encourage one another, we’re told to provide encouragement and support and bear one another’s burdens. These are all Biblical mandates. If I don’t have that, I have to turn to something else to make all the pain go away. So, a lot of people turn to addictive elements and that are-
Kay: Mm-hmm.
Milan: … just, there’s so many things available to take all that pain away.
Jim: You know what’s interesting is you’re sharing this, what I’m thinking about is Jesus’ compassion-
Milan: Yes.
Kay: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … for people-
Milan: Yes.
Jim: … that He encountered in this place.
Milan: Yes.
Jim: You know, uh, Mary-
Milan: Yes.
Jim: … uh, and her difficulty, sexually. Uh, and it seems like He uniquely knew that these were the pitfalls of humanity.
Milan: ‘Cause He’s God.
Kay: Oh, I think-
Jim: And-
Kay: … God’s heart bleeds for people-
Jim: Yeah.
Kay: … for children who grow up in difficult situations.
Jim: And the patterns are so predictable, and the Lord knows that and-
Kay: He- He does. And, uh, He draws them into His church for healing-
Jim: Yeah.
Kay: … and- and yet that healing, you think about it, the better your childhood, the easier your marriage-
Jim: Hmm.
Kay: … ’cause you’ve got a lot of great skills to help you build a healthy relationship. The more trauma you have, or the more dysfunction in your family, the harder your marriage is gonna be because you’re learning a lot of things that don’t work well, but that’s all you know.
John: And that brings part #1 of this “Best of 2025” discussion with Kay and Milan Yerkovich, and Marc and Amy Cameron to a close. They were talking about the content of a book called — Discover Your Love Style, Enhance Your Marriage. It’s a great resource for any couple to have — whether you’re newly married or have been married for decades. There’s so much practical help for your relationship.
Make a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family today and we’ll send the book to you. We wanna help your marriage in any way we can. And if your struggling with a serious need, let me recommend our Counseling team — we can set up a free consultation for you with one of our caring Christian counselors, pray with you, and perhaps connect you with somebody in your area.
Jim: We also have Hope Restored, where we offer intensive counseling to couples who are ready to call it quits. Some have divorce papers in hand. But we’ve seen miracles happen! And before you walk away from your marriage, I wanna urge you to learn more about how Hope Restored can transform your relationship.
John: And the starting place for help is to call 800 – the letter “A” and the word – FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or you can learn more about our counseling team and their services, our Hope Restored program, uh, how you can donate and get a copy of Discover Your Love Style all at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: We should also mention we’re in the final days of our matching gift opportunity. Some generous friends have agreed to match any donation you make to Focus on the Family. And that’s a great way to partner with us to strengthen more marriages, encourage more parents, and spread the Good News of Jesus Christ.
Anything and everything you give will go right back into ministry — and be doubled, thanks to this match! So give generously, as you can, here at the end of the year.
John: And one other resource that I’d like to mention is our “Best of 2025” Audio Collection — which features wonderful guests like our panel today, and also Lee Strobel, Dr. Gary Chapman, Lysa TerKeurst, and Sheila Walsh and many, many others in these 20 programs that we’ve pulled together. It’s a free collection and you can learn more and donate when you call 800 – A – FAMILY. Or stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
John: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation about “love styles” and once more help you and your family thrive in Christ!
Day Two:
Marc Cameron: This is an area we had to take to the cross to say, Lord, my fearful pleaser side is not working here in this relationship. Her avoidant dismissive side is not working; it’s a bad dance. (Jim: It’s crushing you, probably.) It was crushing.
John: That’s Milan Yerkovich, observing how our childhood experiences follow us into adulthood, and, frankly, into all of the relationships we experience as adults.
I’m John Fuller and welcome to another “Best of 2025” edition of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Milan and his wife, Kay, were part of a panel discussion we recorded earlier this year. They were joined by Marc and Amy Cameron, and, uh, they’re essentially taking over the ministry of “love styles” that the Yerkovichs started so many years ago.
Jim: John, I’m not surprised this panel of experts became part of our “best of” collection. They provide such great content — understanding how our earliest childhood experiences can “imprint” on us emotionally and behaviorally, in both positive and negative ways. And I think we know in our hearts that is true.
If you’ve ever wondered why you think and feel the way you do, especially in relationships, the “love styles” concept that Milan and Kay developed can provide some great insights for you.
As we learned last time, you may be an “avoider” or a “pleaser,” or a “vacillator.” Or, if you experienced trauma in your childhood, that can create “controllers” or “victims.” All of these are negative forms of emotional attachment. And I’m looking forward to the final, positive one — “secure connector” — because that’s what God designed us to be.
Again, this is fascinating stuff. And if you missed the program last time, get the Focus on the Family app. Or go to our website so you don’t miss that first program.
John: Yeah, and the basis for the conversation last time and today is a book written by Milan and Kay Yerkovich. It’s called, Discover Your Love Style, Enhance Your Marriage. And we’ve got details about it and our panelists at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And now, here’s part #2 of our panel discussion on today’s “Best of 2025” Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: Let’s kick it off here. You know, people listened last time. Uh, new people are gonna be listening now, uh, how do you sort out who, who am I? You do have a quiz, right? Where’s that located?
Amy: Well, the website howwelove.com, and you scroll down. And it’s a free quiz, and it will give you an attachment imprint. And some people score high in a few different areas, but don’t be discouraged on that because it gives you a lot more opportunity to grow.
Jim: Uh, Kay, let me come your direction. You’ve identified two important questions that people can ask themselves about, uh, comfort and conflict. Who wants comfort? Let me see your hands.
John: (Laughs)
Jim: Yay. Uh, what are those two questions? And why are they so significant?
Kay: Well, we ask, do you have a memory of comfort from your childhood where a parent really could tell you were distressed. They were aware and tuned in, and however you manifested stress as a kid, and they asked you about what was going on inside so you could learn to articulate your inner self. And helped you through that situation, that stressful time to where you felt relief at the end.
And if you, you know, as babies, we do a lot of relieving of distress, but we never really outgrow that need. And we all have stressful lives, so we need comfort in this world. But since I didn’t get comfort growing up as the avoider, I didn’t think I needed comfort. And so, comfort is really essential. As Milan said last time, it’s very important so that you learn to take your, your stress to relationships. One of the hallmarks of a secure home is that we know how to manage stress well.
Jim: Huh.
Kay: And, uh, for the attachment styles that we discussed, each of us struggle to manage stress. I detached. Milan pursued. Vacillators protest. And in those ways of handling stress, we don’t seek comfort.
Jim: Hmm.
Kay: And comfort is a very, um, maybe many times a very undeveloped skill in marriages.
Jim: Yeah.
Kay: We react rather than understanding comfort.
Jim: Marc, uh, you and Amy, uh, you talk about the conflict you had, but you talk about it in the terms of rupture and repair.
Kay: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So let me ask the two of you to kind of define that rupture and repair. What did that look like in your own relationship?
Marc: So, every relationship eventually has rupture. Um, but the key to resolving in rupture is learning how to repair. Can we go back and can we have a conversation? Can we invite another person, um, to sit down with us? And instead of, um, arguing back and forth, I like to say that people bat the perceived facts ball back and forth. I often see this in, in therapy. Couples just argue about the facts.
And I just say, “Let’s just split the time in two. And one of you is gonna be the speaker, and the other one’s gonna be the listener. And you’re gonna really try and enter into the other one’s, uh, perspective to understand what is happening inside of them.”
Jim: So, how did, uh, I, I’m looking for an example from you and Amy. (laughs)
Marc: (laughs)
Jim: I mean, you’re part of this now, so it’s on the table.
Amy: Yeah. So, with conflict, you know, a lot of the times, you know, there’s a desire to be understood. But desire to be understood when you’re activated and angry, it turns into a back, forth, is anybody really listening? So, instead of reactivity, we need to learn how to respond.
So, the comfort circle, which is in the book and on the website, it gives you a framework, listener, speaker. And that was very healing for our imprint because we have that deep desire to be understood. And so, it gives you an opportunity to be heard out and to figure out what’s under this reactive emotion.
Jim: Yeah.
Amy: So, you can really kind of figure out what’s beneath it.
Marc: And that’s what we had to learn to do. We had to learn how to take turns.
John: Was there just this up and down, back and forth? Never really found the middle ground?
Marc: Before, there was.
Jim: Yeah.
Marc: Yes. But at whatever you practice, you get good at.
Jim: Hmm.
Marc: So, as we practice doing that, that became more of a new default behavior.
Jim: Amy, lemme ask you this, ’cause I think, uh, in the prep here, you alluded to it, this idea about having an argument in front of your kids. Um, the idea that we should never do that. You know, the idea that that’s just wrong at the core, “Let’s take it into a private area.” Eh, I don’t know what the disagreement characteristics are. I’m sure yelling at each other would not be healthy, but you kind of disagree with avoiding the argument in front of the kids. Do you?
Amy: Well, I think kids can see what’s going on in the home.
Jim: (laughs) They’ve got good noses.
Amy: Like, I mean, whether, if you’re not talking to each other, you’re not making eye contact. If there’s not like a warm and in the vacillator home, like often kids can understand like something’s going on, whether it’s verbally or non-verbally, they’re kind of attuned to that.
But, you know, I think it’s been really healing for our kids to be like, “Hey, you know what, can I have a do-over? Like, I shouldn’t have said that. Like, can I b- walk that back like right now?”
Um, in front of them it kind of teaches them, you know, how to resolve. So I think you should model how to resolve conflict in front of your kids.
Jim: And I think it’s age appropriate, right?
Amy: Oh.
Jim: You don’t want to do something with a five-year-old that you would do with a 15-year-old, obviously. And the kids are, y- you need age appropriate, uh, looks at what it looks like to resolve conflict in a marriage.
Marc: Well, it, if you don’t demonstrate that, what happens is a child grows up and goes into adulthood with no skills for how to resolve conflict because in their home, they didn’t see it.
Jim: Yeah. No, that’s so true.
Milan: I mean, what? Amy, you just said a little while ago, Kay and I do it all the time. We will say, can I have a do-over?
Jim: Yeah.
Milan: You know, we, we got off to a bad start right there. And um, sometimes we’ll sing a song to each other.
Amy: (laughs)
John: Oh, really?
Milan: Yeah, you were right, and I was wrong, do-da, do-da.
Jim: (laughs)
Kay: Do-da, do-da. (laughs)
Jim: Look at, they kick in together. It’s pretty good.
Kay: (laughs)
Milan: You can tell we’ve done it a few times.
Jim: The Yerkovich melody.
John: Yeah.
Milan: And so, we will actually say-
Jim: (laughs)
Milan: … “I got off to a bad start right there. Could I really? I apologize. Lemme start over again.”
Kay: And that’s even something you can do with your kids.
Milan: Absolutely.
Jim: Oh, yeah. They would love that.
Kay: “Hey, you know what? That didn’t really work. Let’s have a do-over there.”
Jim: Yeah. I think one of the biggest smiles I ever saw on Trent’s face was when I apologized for something.
Kay: Yeah.
Jim: He was probably five or six. He had the biggest smile. I said, “What are you, what are you smiling about?” He goes, “I didn’t know parents had to apologize.”
John: (laughs)
Kay: (laughs)
Jim: What a great line.
Milan: But what a great model.
Jim: Yeah.
Kay: Yes.
Jim: But it was, yeah, I needed to. It was just, I overreacted basically. Milan, let me ask you. In the book, How We Love, you identify three critical ways that couples can comfort each other. I remember talking to you about this when Jean and I were with you two. Uh, what are those three?
Milan: The three are number one, listening. If I can look you in the eye, because you talked about this a while ago, you know, Jean engaging you and wanting to look into your eyes.
Jim: (laughs) Yeah.
Milan: If I can look into Kay’s eyes, and if I can see and I can acknowledge what I see, “I see a tear. Tell me about that tear.”
Jim: Hmm.
Milan: That’s comforting.
Jim: And it’s connection.
Milan: It’s very much connecting. Then the other thing is, when we see that tear, I’ll say, “Can I hold your hand?” Or “Can I just touch you for a moment?”
Jim: So, physical connection,
Milan: Physical connection and touch that is non-sexual. It’s very important for guys to learn how to have non-sexual intimacy with their spouse. Very important.
And then thirdly, we will do a holding time where I will hold Kay, uh, as a comfort if there’s been something very distressing.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Milan: And we’ve even done that with respect to comforting one another for our childhood issues as well.
Jim: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Milan: Nobody was with me back then, but Kay can go there back with me, and I can put my head in her lap, and I can receive comfort for that distressing moment in my life.
John: Hmm.
Milan: So, these are three key ways.
John: Hmm.
Kay: Many childhood wounds are unresolved. In other words, we were married for 15 years and we had never really talked about what had gone on in our families. And shared specific memories, and when we started to do that it was very transformative because the thing he use to do to always be pursuing me, and how are you, and how are you, and how are you … when I heard his childhood memories I was like, well no wonder you’re anxious. No wonder you feel these things. No wonder you’re always wondering how I am. You’re afraid that I’m gonna be upset. And then we could comfort those memories as well.
John: Hmmm.
Jim: The comfort circle, you’ve mentioned it. Who wants to take a, a stab at describing it? I mean, you guys are all the experts here, so Marc?
Kay: Marc, go ahead.
Marc: Well, the comfort circle is providing a reparative experience for the other person. As Kay was mentioning, that, um, what she and Milan do together, when they look into each other’s eyes, when they listen to each other, when they hold hands for one another, that’s mimicking what the cycle of bonding should be like when we are growing up with a parent.
And so, if you didn’t get that growing up, when you provide that for your spouse, it, it gives that reparative experience. Now, here’s the good news. We’re sinners. Christ died. He came down and he provided us a way back to be sanctified.
The bad news here is you may have an injured attachment style, but the good news is that research shows that you can form a secure attachment style by earning it, by doing something called creating a coherent narrative.
Coherent means that something makes sense. Narrative is story. If you can make sense of your story, your childhood story, and then do that reparative experience in the present, you reform, you reshape. And that’s part, I believe, the process of sanctification.
John: Mm-hmm. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And today we have a panel of guests, Milan and Kay Yerkovich and Marc and Amy Cameron. We’re talking about the book by, uh, the Yerkovichs called How We Love: Discover Your Love Style, Enhance Your Marriage.
There’s so much here. There’s understanding (laughs) what you have. And then there’s dealing with what we’ve been talking about. Uh, really, uh, moving intentionally toward each other and growing. And we’ve got the book and additional resources for you on our website, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
And I think it’s important for our listeners to understand we’re not talking about this to blame our past on our parents. I think it seems like there’s this trend to kinda roll my eyes and say, “It’s all my parents’ fault,” but there’s kind of what was and who I am now. So, address that, ’cause I think it’s important for people to hear.
Marc: Well, we have to acknowledge reality of a situation. Uh, the good news of Jesus dying for us and being a savior is of no consequence if you don’t believe that you’re a sinner.
So, the good news of being able to reform and reshape in your attachment style, if you don’t recognize these areas where we have deficits and how they have formed, then you can’t go ahead and intentionally make that journey toward the process of reshaping.
And so, this is not about blaming parents, as you’re mentioning here. It’s about learning how to explain what happened to us, how we became a certain way so that we can move forward even though there’s emotional harm.
Jim: You now one of the things, Marc, in that regard, we often use the term, and I know you guys probably use it too, you know, “wounded people wound people.
Amy: Yes!
Jim: And that’s the dysfunctional parent. I mean, they just don’t know how to do it better. And you end up doing the same things that were done to you as a child, as a parent to your son and daughter. So I think that’s the goal.
Kay: Right.
Jim: Milan, let me turn to you. We talked about triggers. Describe again for the benefit of the listeners and the viewers those triggers that were working with you and Kay. I mean, as a pleaser, what was really making it hard for you? (laughs)
Milan: Okay. So, the definition of a trigger is something in the present brings back an old historical feeling. It’s like you said earlier. And it violently slams in. And so, we get, grr, that expression you had. And where did all that energy come from? It was uninvited. Okay? I didn’t ask that to come in.
Jim: Mm.
Milan: It just jammed its way into the present. Now, what triggered me with Kay was her quietness because of a, I said yesterday on the program that silence was a precursor to a storm.
Number two, she’s also in the introverted-ness. She doesn’t need to be in contact with people as much as extroverts do. So, that silence and also the withdrawal made me nervous because when there was silence and withdrawal in my home growing up, it was absolutely anxiety producing.
So, I would then over pursue, trying to make sure everything was okay. And so, until she said she was okay, or until I could figure out things were okay, I was very undone. I’d be very anxious.
Jim: Now, it’s interesting, I’m just projecting, but I would think that those consistent questions, Kay, were irritating to you.
Milan: Oh, they were so irritating.
Jim: Like, “Why does he keep coming?” So, now he’s outta his trigger, he’s triggering you.
Kay: Yes, that’s exactly right. I, my feeling was, “He’s so nice, but it bugs me. Why is that bugging me?” And it took me really years to answer that because he wasn’t asking for me. He was asking to alleviate his own anxiety. The right answer was, “I’m great because I’m married to you, and you’re amazing, and you’re the best husband anyone could ever have. And woo-hoo.”
Jim: Yeah, that would’ve been really good. (laughs)
Kay: Yeah, that would’ve been really good.
Milan: That doesn’t come naturally to you.
Jim: (laughs)
Kay: No, no, it didn’t come naturally. But, and on top of that, from the time I was very young, my mom and I didn’t really bond when I was an infant. And she thought there was something wrong with me. And so, the feeling I was getting from him was something was wrong with me, which made me wanna push away.
And he, he just felt too needy. So, those triggers, you don’t know they’re happening until you explore your childhood and go, “Oh, that’s the same feeling.”
So, one of the questions our listeners can ask themselves is, when I’m annoyed, what am I feeling? What do I really want to say? And who would I say that to in my history? Or who did I have those exact same feelings within my history?
Jim: Yeah.
Kay: And then you realize, “Okay, the reaction could be quiet.” For me, it wasn’t a loud like, “Ugh.” It was like, “I’m gonna go in the other room.”
So, it could be a detaching response, it could be a protest, it could be trying harder to please. But these are all responses to triggers.
Jim: But that is super important when that happens, try to figure out why it’s happening.
Kay: Right.
Jim: I mean, that’s a commonsense thing, rather than just living the emotion. And then, you know, an hour later it happens again.
Kay: Right.
Milan: But it’s not just the word why, Jim, it’s when.
Jim: Okay.
Milan: When have I felt these feelings before?
Jim: Okay. Yeah.
Milan: I felt them. When my brother did this, I went into my room, and I slammed the door. Well, I do the same thing when I’m married. You know, my husband yells, I go in my room and slam the door. When have you done this behavior before?
Jim: Yeah, interesting.
Milan: We marry each other’s histories.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Milan: Our whole history.
Kay: Yep.
Milan: Now, Marc and Amy, you’re nice and quiet over here, but-
Kay: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jim: We’re gonna, we’re gonna pull you into this. We wanna know your triggers too, but, uh, speak to triggers in that vacillator relationship. What are those things that Marc would do to you, Amy, that would like, “Ouch?” And you would react out of that?
Amy: Gosh, so many things, I guess.
Milan: (laughs)
Marc: (laughs)
Amy: And like, but thankfully, like, there’s so much relief though because-
Jim: Yeah.
Amy: … Um, you know, you dig all this unconscious stuff up, and you like take a good look at it. And you’re like, “You know what? This is from my childhood wounds.”
And so, now you look at your conflict as like, you know, like this is a wound from, you know, Marc’s childhood when he was little, from a wound when I was little. So, you really get to look at each other at where that reactivity was originally came from.
Jim: But you have to develop that empathy, ’cause i- it has to move from irritating to compassionate. (laughs)
Amy: S- so, and that, and-
Jim: And that, that’s a big jump.
Amy: And well, and that’s what the work does because, you know, attachment core pattern therapy allows you to see that reactivity. So, but yes, vacillators, you know, have reactivity and have anger. The, you take the quiz if, if you h- score high in pleaser, vacillator, the tiebreaker is do you get angry? And so, the answer is yes for vacillator. So, I’m-
Jim: So, we’d love an example of how you and Marc get angry at each other. (laughs)
Amy: So, okay. So, one thing that is practical is, um, arrivals and departures. So, like, you know, he’s gonna come home. I have all this exciting stuff to tell him, and I have dinner on the table, I’m hungry, you know, like it’s warm, it’s at the temperature I want to eat it.
Like, “Come in,” like, “Let’s eat it right now. Like right now.”
Now is a thing that vacillators do. And then, you know, he has to like put his jacket down and like his day and everything. And so, here comes the swing. High hopes, “He’s just not listening to me at all.” Deep despair.
So, that swing is what happens. But taking ownership myself of, “You know what? I need to give him time to come through the door. If I want to be heard out, I need to find the right opportunity.”
You know, he listens to people all day as a therapist (laughs), so I need to give him the right opportunity for me to be heard, for him to actually listen. So, just understanding, you know, how to get your needs met without being reactive.
Jim: Yeah.
Marc: Yeah. Well, disappointment is one of the triggers for the vacillator. They also get triggered when they feel misunderstood, when they feel unseen or unheard by a person, when they are made to wait. Um, when they perceive abandonments or, or rejection.
But they don’t like to ask for the connection. They give complaints and criticisms. And so, that’s often what, how it played out between Amy and I. Something would happen, someone would get disappointed, the other person would be made to wait. And their criticism would come. And really what the criticism was, was, “Hey, I’m hurting.” But the other person perceived that as an attack, and then we both went at it with each other.
Jim: Yeah, no, let’s, uh, and that’s again, the goal here is healthy. So, all these awarenesses we’re talking about.
Marc: Mm-hmm.
Jim: This is awesome. I love this.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, that last one that we have mentioned but really not defined, the secure connector. Uh, let’s get into that in the last few minutes that we have here. And maybe again, Marc and Amy, you guys can help us define what it is, those characteristics of a secure connector.
Marc: Yeah, somebody who is securely connected is emotionally intelligent. They’re in touch with their own emotions to understand what’s driving their behavior, and they can make requests.
So, we do two things with our emotions. We talk ’em out productively, or we act ’em out. Or I like to say we verbalize or we dramatize. If you dramatize and you act it out, someone’s gotta guess what’s going on inside of you.
But if you have language for emotions and feelings, you can clearly say to somebody, “This is what I’m feeling here.” And if you can learn to link those two things, feelings and needs, you can make requests. You’re more likely to get what you want, and more likely to draw empathy in from the other person.
So, somebody who is securely attached can do that. They can learn to wait. They can have a conversation where they’re in the listener role, and they can listen for understanding even when they don’t agree.
Jim: Yeah. That is good. Anybody want to add to that?
Milan: Well, especially for vacillators, when they go silent or pouts or sulk or pull away, they want a mind reader to be able to know what’s wrong with them.
Jim: Because that communicates what? “You know me.”
Milan: What, that means, “You know me.”
Jim: Yeah.
Milan: But I don’t.
Jim: Right, right. (laughs)
Milan: See, I can’t possibly mind read. I know Kay as well as anybody, but I still have to ask her every day, “How are you?”
Jim: Well, this is the wife who’s saying, “He should know that.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Kay: Right, right.
Jim: But he doesn’t.
Milan: Right. Or the husband that says, “I told you one time. I told you already told you this, why can’t you just know what I need right now?”
And that’s not fair because we are growing creatures, and life changes from week to week. I can’t possibly know that, but-
Kay: So, I’ll add to the secure connector based right off of that.
Milan: Please do.
Jim: Yeah.
Kay: The secure connector can describe to their family what they’re going through. You might come home and say, “I had one of the most difficult days. I’m really not in a great place. It’s nothing you did. Gimme a while to calm down.”
That communicates to the family so that they know right away. Great way to come back to your family is when you reunite at the end of the day, is, “Gimme three feelings about your day.” It gives you so much information.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, in this space right at the end here, I’m thinking of the marriage, you know, a lot of Christian marriages that, you know, we’re doing okay.
Kay: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We pray together. We go to church together; we have good discussions. We don’t allow phones at the dinner table. (laughs)
Kay: (laughs)
Jim: You know, whatever, whatever is making that happen. But it’s not the deep end of the pool.
Kay: Right.
Jim: It’s like we’re just playing in the shallow end of life, and we’re happy there ’cause we could put our feet on the ground. (laughs) And then you move deeper into the pool, it creates risk. It creates openness. It’s, it’s feeling very much known.
Kay: Right.
Jim: And I think that is where God wants us to go so that we have a full experience in this life of intimacy. Intimacy with Him, intimacy with our spouse, our family, etc. What do you say to that couple that, “Yeah, we’re doing good enough?”
Kay: I, I think it’s about vulnerability. The first 15 years of our marriage, there was no vulnerability. We didn’t even know how to be vulnerable. And then when we took this journey and really owned our own attachment wounds and begin to change, we had s- our first very vulnerable conversations. Even discussing childhood pain is vulnerable.
Learning to comfort each other was enormous. And what we’re experiencing as we age, there’s more and more loss. And if you’re in the shallow end, you don’t know what to do with loss. Loss needs comfort. And the older you get, the more loss there is.
And so, loss and being able to cry with someone or being able to really express grief is vulnerable. So, I think going into the deep end gives you a richness that we just didn’t know existed until we learned to live there.
Jim: Yeah. That is so good. And I think frankly, I’m guilty of that. I can live in the light end. I like to lighten up the load because life can be heavy. And that’s-
Kay: Well, and, and they’re, I’m not talking about not having joy.
Jim: Right.
Kay: You know, but it’s like most people are able to experience joy, but grief or pain is where they get stuck. They don’t know what to do with it.
John: Some pretty profound thoughts from Kay Yerkovich. And, uh, she and her husband, Milan, were part of a panel discussion we recorded earlier this year. The panel included the Yerkovichs and Marc and Amy Cameron. And now it’s part of our “Best of 2025” collection of programs.
Jim: We have an amazing collection this year, John. So many great topics and guests — like Dr. Gary Chapman on 5 simple ways you can transform your family. And Jay and Laura Lafoon about planning memorable date nights! And a powerful discussion about what Heaven will be like with John Burke and Pam Farrel. We have 20 programs in all, and this is really good content! And it’s free to anyone who wants it!
John: That’s right, and we’ll tell you more about the collection and also the book that Milan and Kay wrote, which was the basis for the program last time and today called, Discover Your Love Style, Enhance Your Marriage. Make a gift of any amount to the ministry today, and we’ll send a copy of that to you.
Donate to get the book and find details of the Best of 2025 Collection FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast, or call 1- 800 – the letter “A” and the word – FAMILY. (800) 232-6459.
Jim: Today is the final day of our matching gift campaign, so it’s critical that we hear from you. This is your last chance to double your donation to Focus on the Family — helping us strengthen more marriages, equip more parents, and save more preborn babies as we head into the New Year!
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Well let me say, thank you, Barb! Let’s continue to work together to help more people like Barb. Send a year-end gift to Focus on the Family today!
John: We welcome your support. And once again, you can donate when you call 800 – A – FAMILY. Or at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back when we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
