Preview:
Camille Cates: We love you. We love you. We love you. We love your baby. You know, we’re gonna get through this together. And, um, Jesus loves you. And, um, you know, no matter how this happened, this baby is a gift from God. So how can we steward this pregnancy to the glory of God?
End of Preview
John Fuller: Mm. Camille Cates is with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and we have an amazing God-filled conversation for you about post-abortive healing. This topic isn’t going to be suitable for younger listeners. Uh, and with that, thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, it’s no secret that abortion is an important cultural issue. Uh, we talk about it a lot here at Focus because we want women and men to understand the importance of having a child.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, you know, that’s debated publicly now, and we have laws this way or that way in each of the states. But the bottom line is, uh, children are a blessing. Sometimes, uh, couples and women particularly are in a very tough situation, and we know that. Something like one in four women have had an abortion in the United States.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So we don’t want to simply put our heads in the sand and not acknowledge what is happening, but we do want to help those women who have had an abortion or who may in the future contemplate an abortion.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, one of the great things I believe Focus has done over the years is option ultrasound. I think now the number is 527,000 babies being saved through that effort.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And it’s now into pill reversal activity and networking throughout all the, uh, pregnancy resource centers. But I’m proud that we were one of the first to get into this 22, 23 years ago.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And to fight for a woman and her preborn baby. In addition to that, on the abortion side, there are casualties when abortion takes place, women are unfortunately, emotionally and spiritually wounded by that.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: They carry great guilt, and-
John: Yeah.
Jim: … you know, the Lord is there for you. And you’re gonna hear that story today. We have caring Christian counselors that are available.
John: Mm.
Jim: Uh, the donors are, um, they’re helping us to cover that, obviously.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we want you to call. Uh, it takes that first step if you haven’t told anybody. Yeah. And even if you have, it’s always good to check in and make sure you’re doing well.
John: Yeah.
Jim: So I’m looking forward to today’s program.
John: I am as well, Jim. And by the way, uh, we have details about our counseling team in the show notes, or you can call 800 A FAMILY, if you’d like to speak with one of them. Uh, Camille Cates has, uh, with God’s help, seen, uh, redemption in her life journey, uh, she’s turned her experiences into a book called Moving Forward After Abortion, Finding Comfort in God. And of course, we have copies of that here at the ministry. Details are at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Camille, welcome to Focus on the Family. It’s good to have you here.
Camille: Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Jim: You know, and it’s kind of subdued, you know, usually we’re starting with energy, but this is such a serious subject. And I read your story, it will unfold as we talk with you. But man, my heart was heavy just hearing everything you dealt with. And for the viewers, the listeners, you just want to kick back here and listen to this story because it is tragic, moving and redemptive kind of all at the same time. But, uh, you know, it’s amazing what the Lord has done in your life. Let’s, let’s set it up for those that haven’t heard your story, don’t know your story. You grew up in a Christian home. You’re-
Camille: I did.
Jim: I don’t even know if that’s accurate. I mean, the home is not Christian. It’s your parents-
Camille: Right, right.
Jim: … who are Christian. And you were kinda, you know, moving along, you weren’t quite sure. Just describe those early years and what it meant to have Christian parents. And then what was your expectation about your spiritual journey?
Camille: Yeah. So my parents were very involved in church. My mom was the preschool director at our church, and my dad, um, really helped out our deacons. So, uh, I like to say I was there, um, pretty much every time the doors were open. So I really grew up knowing a lot, hearing a lot about Jesus. Um, but it wasn’t till I was about 12, and I went to a youth camp, and I really, truly came to know Jesus is my Lord and Savior. And I don’t doubt that experience. Um, I really, uh, remember just having a heart of worship and being thankful for what Jesus did on the cross to pay for my sins.
But I went back home and entered the high school years and began dating relationships. And my parents just really didn’t have a whole lot of discipleship, especially in how to navigate those tricky dating relationships. So I didn’t have a biblical foundation for that, even though my parents were, um, Christian. So I ended up becoming sexually active, uh, by the time I was 15. By the time I was 16, I had become pregnant. And, uh, my parents eventually found out. My mom came to me and she said, “Camille, do you wanna have an abortion?” And I was shocked, um, coming from my parents. I knew I shouldn’t have been having sex outside of marriage but, um, I really just thought of abortion as being wrong, and I can’t do that. And I just said, “No, you know, mom, I wanna keep my baby. And-”
Jim: Yeah. Let me, let me break into that.
Camille: Sure.
Jim: ‘Cause we’re gonna, you know, unfold this a little bit.
Camille: Sure.
Jim: But the, um, you, you know, this idea about your parents maybe not doing enough. I mean, y- y- you don’t know what would’ve happened if they sat you down once a week and said, “Well, listen, hon-”
Camille: Sure.
Jim: “… I know you’re in high school now, and you’re gonna have these attractions.” I think being older now, how would you coach your parents if you could have to have done that better? And the reason I’m asking this question is for all the parents that have teens right now.
Camille: Sure.
Jim: Um, or grandparents that are-
Camille: Sure.
Jim: … listening that have teen grandchildren, what is something that you think in your experience would’ve been helpful? I, it’s a powerful attraction.
Camille: It, it is.
Jim: I mean, to be educated enough to say, “No,” that takes a lot of input and a lot of character on the child’s part as well. So, thinking back to that, what’s a helpful hint you would give to parents today?
Camille: Yeah. I think, you know, and I’ve raised my own, um, adult children now and navigating those, um,-
Jim: Right.
Camille: … years with them. And so looking back, thankfully I was able to take a little bit different approach, but, um, leaning in, obviously to ministries like Focus on the Family are a great way to kind of equip yourself as a parent. But really, you know, we grew up hearing that you needed to have the talk with your children. And it really needs to be an ongoing conversation, uh, because their questions are gonna grow and change as they grow. And, um, in today’s society, uh, there’s so much coming at them through social media and what they can get onto and the internet.
And if we’re not taking the time as parents to go back and spend that dedicated time, as awkward as it may be, um, to just push past that awkwardness and have that conversation on a regular basis, especially when things come up with their peers or even in the headlines in the news. Um, being able to make those talking points with your children and then bringing it back to God’s foundation for that and really hit on why and how to save yourself for marriage.
Jim: The importance of that.
Camille: Yes.
Jim: No, I appreciate that. And, you know, something we did with the boys, Trent and Troy, they, you know, we tried to reinforce the fact that life will be, um, easier, more rewarding spiritually in a good place if you can, you know, finish school, get married, and have children in that order.
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that is statistically true. Uh, you know, you will be capable of shalom, God’s peace-
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … if you do it in that order. And there’s a lot of chaos when you don’t.
Camille: And I think too, you know, going back for parents to be able to teach their children, even if you have sex outside of marriage, if you get pregnant, that baby, being pregnant with that baby is not a sin.
Jim: Well, let me, let me go to that part-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … of the story ’cause that was one of the powerful things I pulled out your book. And, uh, it’s a quick read. You know, it’s just a little over 80 pages, I mean, but it’s powerful. Oftentimes that’s the case. Right?
John: Yes.
Jim: The quick reads (laughs) are the better ones.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But when you and your parents talked about you being pregnant at 16, 17.
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, they were leaning toward, uh, an abortion for you.
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And your response was powerful, especially given you were what I would say, respectfully, kind of Christian light as a teenager.
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You’re not totally integrated. But in that context, what did you say to them about, wait a minute. I mean, uh, killing my child is worse.
Camille: Yeah. I just, I couldn’t fathom that outcome. I just thought, you know, this is … I know I shouldn’t have been doing these things, but abortion’s wrong, and I don’t wanna do that. I wanna, I wanna keep my baby. And I’m thankful-
Jim: It’s phenomenal to me, because it’s such a character to be able to say that. I really applaud you, that you knew that distinction. Of course you knew this was wrong, but then that-
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … seems to be totally unacceptable.
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: And that, for that age, that was amazing. So what happened with that child?
Camille: So, thankfully, my parents were supportive, um, which I think is key, uh, for people that find themselves in an unplanned pregnancy. They were supportive. They were really worried that I wasn’t gonna finish school. So we pushed through. I graduated, um, high school a year early, and I started college two weeks after my daughter was born, um, that summer. And so, you know, here I was trying to find things. I was in this situation that the father had been out of the picture, didn’t want anything to do with us.
So I was really raising her as a single mom. And, um, but it, what, I still had this desire to be a family, you know, God places that in our hearts. And so I wanted, um, uh, a father for my daughter. I wanted a husband; I wanted a family. So I began dating again, um, after she was about eight months old. And, uh, but I hadn’t been discipled again, I hadn’t been given that foundation. So I went back to what I knew and how to have relationships, became sexually active and got pregnant again.
Jim: And, and this is, how old are you at this point?
Camille: I’m, uh, 17, almost 18, I guess at that time. Very short amount of time. So she was only about 10 months old when I started having this dating relationship. Got pregnant again.
Jim: Yeah. And this, I mean, this is where people need to lean in a bit. And something happened. Your mom came to your work site and-
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: … told you something. What happened?
Camille: Yeah. So I, um, my boyfriend was watching my daughter. I was up at work working one of my part-time jobs. She came in and she said, “Camille, you’ve gotta go to the hospital. Something’s happened to Lauren.” And so we … I shut things down. We went up there, and within the course of about 24 hours had discovered that my boyfriend had sexually assaulted and shaken her to death, um, in his care. And, um, my world just crumbled. And, um, here I was, I’d lost my daughter, had been betrayed by this man that I thought I cared about, thought cared about both of us. And here I was pregnant with his baby. And my parents knew, um, they had known a few weeks before, um, this all happened that I was pregnant. And we, I hadn’t hit the parking lot, uh, to leave the hospital. And they were on me about, “You know, we really think you need to have an abortion. You really need to have an abortion.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Well, I mean, there, there is so much in that. I can’t imagine someone with their back up against the wall any more so than you in that spot. I mean, that, that is so tragic in every direction.
John: Hmm.
Camille: It was, there was a lot of trauma. And I think a lot of people still think of abortion as a stereotypical, like some girl got pregnant in high school or college, but in working with women for the past 30 years, there’s so much trauma that can be surrounding that decision that just makes it that much harder, um, for them. And so I really wrestled, you know, I knew abortion was still wrong. Um, but I think when we don’t have that good foundation in God’s word, you know, and my theology started to shift a little bit. You know, oh, well, I’m unique. I have this unique situation. God’s gonna make this okay. Just this one time.
John: Mm-hmm.
Camille: And I started to rationalize. Looking back, I know that God would’ve helped me get through that time, but we just believed that there was no other way-
John: Mm-hmm.
Camille: … and rationalized.
John: Mm-hmm.
Camille: And so I ended up having an abortion four days after we buried my daughter.
John: Wow.
Camille: So it was, it was a hard time.
John: Mm. Well, our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly is Camille Cates, and, um, we’re so grateful for her vulnerability, and, uh, there is more to the story, but we have resources and help for you if, um, we’re describing or touching on anything that you’re experiencing or have experienced. And, um, you can find details and help at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast, or give us a call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And, uh, Camille, it seems, I mean, from a human perspective, like you had no options there. I, I, I can’t imagine. But what, what emotions were you experiencing beyond grief? Um, or, or was grief like everything at the moment?
Camille: I think, you know, grief was the biggest, um, uh, thing. And I, I remember after the abortion, um, going home and just laying down in bed at night and praying that God would just take me, you know, just that despair that you have. And, and it was compounded with, with the grief of losing my daughter. But, um, you know, I struggled a lot with anger, um, especially at first feeling the betrayal of somebody that, you know, is supposed to love you and care for you, and, um, would do something like that. And yeah. Just get really confusion. Um, I really, my life spiraled for a good couple of years and turned to a lot of drugs and alcohol and other relationships, which just compounded-
Jim: Right.
Camille: … um, the pain with more sin.
Jim: Well, and that’s an escape mechanism. You know-
Camille: It is.
Jim: … counselors will tell us that-
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: … that we’re looking to soothe that pain. In that context you’re describing in the book, um, coming to the end of yourself, so many people are in that spot, Camille, that are, you know, it may not be the abortion topic, it could be anything, a divorce, infidelity, whatever.
Camille: Right.
Jim: It’s just destroyed their life. And they’re sitting on that couch saying to themselves, “What, what do I do?”
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How is the Lord speaking to you at this point?
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, it probably is a weird thing in that it feels like He’s a thousand miles away because of your circumstances, yet He’s right there sitting next to you.
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: So to speak. What did it feel like for you in that context?
Camille: He’s so faithful. Um, really when the Lord started to bring me out of that time of just darkness, spiritual darkness, um, I remember going on a, a date with a former, um, boyfriend. And, uh, he was taking me home. And, um, I knew that he wanted to be sexually active, and, uh, there was just something that the Lord did in my heart, and my heart just kind of snapped. And I said, “I, I know where this leads, and I don’t want this anymore.” So I, I left, left that relationship, and I remember going into my house and throwing myself on the bed and just saying, crying out to God, like, I have chased every single relationship in my life, but the one I have with You, and I am done, and I’m ready to pursue this life with You. And my life changed radically.
Jim: Yeah. In that regard, um, the insights that hopefully you’ve gained in that way, how do you coach somebody in that grief place? Let, let’s talk about abortion. There’s so-
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … much grief and guilt that comes with that. If a woman, you know, again, it could be a Christian or a non-Christian, but their circumstances seem to indicate there’s no way out.
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I’ve got to do it this way. And they made that decision.
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: And it was most likely a blind decision. Obviously, there are other ways, but they didn’t have somebody in their life to say there is a better way to go.
Camille: Right.
Jim: Whether it’s adoption or keeping the child, but, uh, not terminating the life of that baby who did nothing-
Camille: Right.
Jim: … to deserve death.
Camille: Right, right.
Jim: Um, but how do you speak to that woman and men too, about the guilt of a bad decision, a horrific decision, and then giving that to God?
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, really giving it to God.
Camille: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: Speak to that process.
Camille: Um, it, it can be a really long process for some people, they just, um, wear guilt like a shroud over them. And, you know, to know that, you know, the punishment for our sins fell on Christ on the cross. And being able to turn to Him to take that guilt, to take the regret, you know, the Bible talks about godly sorrow and worldly sorrow. God wants us to take our godly sorrow to him and say, confess, this was a sin. And not just the act of abortion. There’s, there’s something behind that. There’s a heart behind the act of abortion. And it, it is always related to i- idolatry one way or another. Like, we didn’t want something to happen, or we wanted something to happen. So we felt like this was the only way, um, that we could do that. So really bringing, um, your heart to the Lord and that guilt and letting Jesus take that guilt on for you-
John: Mm.
Camille: … in exchange for His righteousness. And that’s the only way. Some people get so stuck in, um, feeling like God could never forgive them. But Jesus went to the cross to die for all sin. Um, so when we don’t receive that, it’s like we’re telling Jesus what you did wasn’t good enough. I have to somehow, you know, pay my own penance, which is just a life of works and misery, that’s miserable-
John: Mm-hmm.
Camille: Christ died for our freedom. So being able to exchange that guilt for His righteousness and receive His grace and mercy, and to walk in that newness of life is really incredible.
Jim: It is hard for us to believe that salvation is a free gift.
Camille: Yes, it is.
Jim: Right? ‘Cause we want to earn it.
Camille: Yes.
Jim: It’s so amazing. But in that regard, what bit of advice do you have for that woman that has carried this for far too long-
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: … she can’t let go. Maybe she was a believer when she did this. What do you say to her?
Camille: Yeah. Uh, we have got to bring this into the light. You know, a lot of women will come and they’re, they’re Christians. They’ll come and talk to me and they’ll say, “Well, I know Jesus forgives me,” but there’s also healing. The Bible says that He sent his word to heal us and deliver us from our destructions.
John: Mm-hmm.
Camille: Um, you know, I think if more women and men would find the forgiveness of the Lord, that they would put their full trust in that and come forward, it would really change how we look and talk about abortion, because more people would be sharing their stories.
Jim: Yeah. So true.
Camille: Of brokenness and redemption.
Jim: So true. Um, and again, kind of the path to redemption is full of potholes. And you experienced that, you, uh, met your future husband, and that was difficult because of what had happened to you.
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: Describe how you met Troy and then the, you know, the early days of courtship and your feeling about it. Uh, it’s-
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: … pretty, pretty amazing.
Camille: Yeah, it is.
John: Mm-hmm.
Camille: Um, he, he’s amazing. Um, so we grew up in church together, and Troy and I had always been friends. Our families were friends growing up in church, and so we hung out with each other. He knew, everybody in my hometown knew what had happened to Lauren. Um, it made headlines. So, um, I knew that he knew that part of my past, he had just come home, um, from seminary, was looking, uh, to go into youth ministry. And he found me, and we started hanging out again. And one night he shared that he had feelings for me, and I just thought, “Gosh, he’s going into youth ministry, and I have this checkered past, and, um, he doesn’t need a girl like me, um, going into that with him.” And I think he sensed my hesitation. He looked me in the eyes and he said, “Camille, I know about your abortion, and I love you anyway,” and I just … It freaked me out a little bit, honestly.
Jim: Yeah.
Camille: And um, I-
Jim: Describe that feeling, though. It’s so important for people to get it. What was the freak out? (laughs).
Camille: Oh my gosh. Just like, what, how does he know about my past and what, um, why is he okay with this? Why does he love me anyway? And I just felt like I had to get out of there. And so I left, I went home, and on the drive home, I just got such a picture of the gospel afresh and anew. And that, you know, here he was, this guy, he was a virgin, he was going into youth ministry. Here I was with this sinful past, and he loved me and wanted to be with me anyway. And you think about God, He’s holy, He’s pure, He’s righteous. We’re sinners. We have depravity. And yet He sent his son Jesus because He loves us, and He wants to be with us anyway. So it was such a sweet picture of the gospel.
Jim: Camille, let me ask you, uh, the man’s side of this. You had a great story in the book about seeing it through the eyes of the man.
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Describe that story and the impact it had for you.
Camille: Yeah. The, so, um, a friend of mine was telling me, sharing about her, um, experience with a man who had had an abortion with her. Um, she had, uh, really been healed, touched by the Lord, and worked through her abortion experience, and she wanted that for him too. And so they met together, um, for coffee and, uh, chatted about it. She got to share Christ with him. And towards the end of their time together, he goes to pay for the coffee, and he pulls out a receipt out of his wallet and hands it to her. And it’s the receipt for her abortion. You know, 20, 30 years ago.
John: Mm-hmm.
Camille: He had carried with him and kept and held onto. So abortion deeply impacts men. Our societies kind of cut them out of the pictures saying it’s a woman’s body and it’s her choice, but it’s their baby. God used both of them to create this baby. And so some men, um, you know, they kind of fall into one of two categories. Some men, um, pressed and and pressured for the abortion, and they can feel guilt for that later. And then some men didn’t have a choice.
Jim: Mm.
Camille: And their-
Jim: They’re just done.
Camille: … their girlfriend, their partner went ahead and had the abortion. They’re devastated. So it deeply impacts, I’ve had, um, friends who’ve shared their testimony and said elders, uh, have come up to them after sharing their testimony and said, “You know, I have an abortion in my past. I’ve never told anyone, and I cannot go to my church on Sanctity of Human Life Sunday.”
Jim: Yeah.
Camille: Because it’s so painful. So, you know, we really, as the church, I’m hoping that we can speak in such a way on this topic where people who are sitting in the pew find that hope and healing in Christ. They, a lot of them know Jesus has forgiven them, but they don’t know the extent of healing that they can experience through His word.
Jim: Yeah. You know, I’m thinking right at the end here, what’s so critical is the way we respond as Christians, mature Christians, the church community. And I’m thinking of your parents too. And, uh, it seemed like they really wanted to do the right thing for you and to help you, but they seemed a bit, you know, confused as well.
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: And what’s the remedy that’s the fastest to get our daughter to a healthy place and protect her? And-
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: And I think in all of that, the question I’d like to end with and for you to talk about is just starting with the parents. Um, when you sit down at the table and it comes out, “Mom, dad, I’m pregnant,” and they’re 16, 17.
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: Um, w- w- what is the most important thing for those parents in that moment to remember?
Camille: Yeah. We love you. We love you. We love you; we love your baby. Um, you know, we’re gonna get through this together. And, um, Jesus loves you. And, um, you know, no matter how this happened, this baby is a gift from God. So how can we steward this pregnancy to the glory-
Jim: Yeah.
Camille: … of God?
John: Mm.
Jim: That’s so good. The best thing to remember. And, uh, you know, there’s no sin that the Lord cannot cover.
Camille: That’s right.
Jim: And, uh, you’ve lived it, even though it’s been difficult. Right?
Camille: Right. Absolutely.
Jim: To go through that, the many, many potholes, the tragedy of all of your story, and yet probably responses from those that you cared about, like your parents and the people in the church and your husband Troy, it helped you get through it.
Camille: Mm-hmm.
Jim: To know that you are cherished, you are loved.
Camille: Yeah.
Jim: And they demonstrated that to you.
Camille: Absolutely.
Jim: And that’s how God feels about you in even more significant ways. Right? Than we can do humanly.
Camille: Yes.
Jim: His love is profoundly out of this world.
Camille: Yeah, absolutely.
Jim: And, uh, yeah, it’s great. Your story’s encouraging.
Camille: Thank you.
Jim: Even though devastating. So thank you for being with us.
Camille: Thank you for having me.
John: Mm.
Camille: I appreciate it.
Jim: Hey, man, I’m feeling the emotion.
John: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, if you’re in that spot, we’re here for you. This is one of the core things that we do. It’s not just about telling people the right thing to do. It’s the, the spiritual, the emotional connection of all this. The Lord loves you. He cares for you. Call us if you need us, and we can provide resources that will put you on a better path. Um, you will feel that love, I do believe.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, step outta your comfort zone and get the healing that you need by getting in touch with us.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We’ve got, uh, details about our counseling team, and a way you can set up a counselor referral call free of charge. We also have, uh, copies of Camille’s book, Moving Forward After Abortion, Finding Comfort in God. And you can tell she has found comfort and peace in God. Uh, get a copy of this today and, uh, we will be happy to send that out to you for gift of any amount. So reach out, get in touch with us. The details are at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast, or give us a call, 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY, (800) 232-6459. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
