Day One:
Preview:
John Stonestreet: And that’s really what this whole project has been about from the beginning. Will the Church be the Church? Will we live into this calling to this moment right now? And we’ve gotta do it personally. We’ve gotta do it individually. We’ve gotta do it in our own marriages, to your point, certainly in our own families, with our kids, but also in our communities. And then that will have a civilizational impact.
John Fuller: Well, that’s John Stonestreet, encouraging us with the uncommon hope that believers have amidst the chaos of the culture. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.
Jim Daly: John, uh, man, I wanna jump right in and say, uh, we know we’re living in a broken culture and it’s just all around us. It, something’s different. It’s like a can of, something got opened up, whether it’s social media or just discontent, but there’s a lot of the enemy’s personality sweeping over this world.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that caused us at Focus on the Family to kind of kick back and say, okay, what do we need right now? And we started to think about a documentary that could highlight this. And we were hearing different people like Jordan Peterson and Elon Musk, people that aren’t given to the Christian faith, they might be thinking about it, and many other voices in the culture who are saying things that were right. You know, like, we need children. Children are a blessing.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: They may not say it that way, but they’re saying something like that. Or the idea of gender with Jordan Peterson, that, you know, we’re male and female. There’s a purpose in that, and we have distinct characteristics that allow us to do things differently. And the differences are actually good things, not bad things. And let’s not make men into women and women into men. Just those things. And you see it all over the culture. And I remember thinking, we need a follow-up to The Truth Project that hits this moment.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I believe we’ve hit it thanks to the Lord’s intervention.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And good friendships like with John Stonestreet from the Colson Center.
John F.: Right. And of course, The Truth Project was, uh, boy, that was 20 years ago, wasn’t it?
Jim: Del Tackett. Dr. Del Tackett. Very successful. I think it was something like 20 million people saw that over time. And I think, I think Truth Rising is gonna be maybe even bigger.
John F.: Mm-hmm. Well, certainly more dimensional. Uh, there are a lot more pieces to Truth Rising. Uh, but we’re happy to talk today with John Stonestreet about what the film is in particular, and then explore all the, the collateral resources, uh, that go along with it. John is, uh, really a, a great guest. He’s been here a number of times. And, uh, as you said, Jim, uh, a very deep thinker. He’s the president of the Colson Center for Christian World View and is such a student of the culture and a good guide for us to understand what’s going on. Uh, we’ll have details about John and this film, Truth Rising, at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: John, welcome back to Focus on the Family.
John S.: Hey, thanks so much. It’s great to be with you. It’s been great to work on this project together.
Jim: Yeah. You know, it’s funny ’cause the Colson Center, you’re leasing space here at Focus, so you actually just walked down the hall-
John S.: I did (laughs).
Jim: … which is funny.
John S.: Long journey.
Jim: But it’s awesome. It’s great to have you here on the campus and the great work you’re doing. You know, Chuck Colson, who, uh, was your predecessor, uh, terrific human being of course, worked in the Nixon administration, goes to jail for Watergate, finds Christ in that process, comes out, starts, you know, Prison Fellowship, an incredible ministry to help prisoners be truly set free-
John S.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … spiritually and physically. And you’ve taken over from him. You’ve done a wonderful job. And I so appreciate Chuck. I can remember he came by during the transition. I had lunch with him and just prayed over me, just the two of us sitting in my office. And it was so kind of him to take that time on several occasions to call me. How you doing? But that was him, right?
John S.: Mm-hmm. It, well, well, it was, and he really invested in leaders and he also really cared about what was upstream from the work that he was doing in the prison.
John F.: Right.
Jim: What’s it like to take over from such a famous guy?
John S.: (Laughs) We, we should have a, a kind of a, a club here, I think.
Jim: Yeah. That’s so fun though. But yeah, he just was so, so good.
John S.: Yeah. And he foresaw a lot, right?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John S.: I mean, he was a, a student of, uh, church history. He was a student of theology. Uh, and if you think about, uh, Francis Schaeffer, the, the, the quirky guy walking around in his knickers talking about, um, you know, what was happening in Western culture and how ideas were creeping in that were gonna have consequences, uh, Chuck jumped in to that, uh, story and said, “Yeah, here’s, here’s what’s happening in the culture.” And he wanted the church to care about what was happening in the culture ’cause he thought it really mattered. And now, of course, now here we are 20 years after that, we don’t have to convince ourselves that what’s happening in culture matters, because we feel like we’re victims a lot of times of these cultural forces that overwhelm us, especially as parents and leaders and, and Christians.
Jim: It seems to be on full display now.
John S.: It does.
Jim: This conflict. Of course, Chuck Colson wrote Kingdoms in Conflict, which is so apropos now.
John F.: Right.
Jim: And again, these people that had a, a foretaste, uh, foreshadowing of what was gonna come. In fact, Francis Schaeffer, he was the quirky Christian philosopher who, who ran his ministry there in, in Switzerland and said things like, in 1973 with Roe V. Wade, this will lead to euthanasia.
John S.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’ll lead to a death culture. He was already there. And slowly but surely, his pronouncements all those years ago, decades ago, have come to pass where we now accept that culturally, the killing of elderly people, uh, Canada is suffering from that. But you know, this idea that there’s linkage to these things, when you, uh, legalize abortion, you are denigrating human beings and people become desensitized to death.
John S.: Yeah. I mean, listen, we live in a profoundly dehumanizing cultural moment. And I think we see that in terms of policies like the embrace of death, both at the beginning of life and at the end of life, but also the crisis of meaning, the crisis of identity formation, particularly for young people kind of chasing identities and thinking that identities are these fluid things and that they’re gonna eventually find happiness through quote-unquote, “Being themselves.” But what we’re seeing now is that they’re not. And so, listen, this is kind of the proof of what a lot of these guys said. Ideas have consequences. Bad ideas upstream in the culture lead to the consequences that we see downstream. And, and they’re not just disembodied consequences, the consequences for real people. We often say at the Colson Center, ideas have consequences, and bad ideas have victims. And I think we’re in a unique cultural moment. Our friend Os Guinness calls it a civilizational moment where a lot of these things are coming to a head. And, uh, then the question is, you know, to follow up on both Francis Schaeffer and Chuck Colson, how should we live?
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John S.: What’s our call to this moment? And that’s really the crux of this project.
Jim: Right.
John S.: How can the church be the church in this time, in this place?
Jim: Well, then there’s so much stuff flying. I mean, now it’s like everybody’s got their own truth.
John S.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, your truth isn’t my truth. Well, the reality is like gravity, truth is truth. There is one set that we would call truth. And we as Christians squarely believe the Bible is full of God’s truth for the universe, its creation, how human beings operate, etc. And the world just is in this weird place. Um, describe that idea of Christian worldview, its formation, what it is we believe. Um, man, we could just spin off of that-
John S.: (laughs).
Jim: … and talk about the offense it is to people. But why do we need to help our children have that formulation of a Christian worldview? A lot of people say, “Oh, Christian worldview, that’s so ancient.”
John S.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Uh, but speak to the, the, the wisdom of ancient truth.
John S.: Well, it is, mainly because it gives us a map. It gives us a, a fixed reference point. Um, think about the importance of the magnetic North Pole to the compass. Uh, you know, if we dropped you off in the wilderness, uh, of, of Colorado here and gave you a compass to find your way out, it really matters that that compass works.
Jim: Yeah (Laughs), right.
John S.: Uh, imagine like if you were kind of in the middle of nowhere and you started to realize, oh, the compass is always pointing at me. No matter where you turn, you’re the center of reality. Well, in the context of a wilderness, you’re going to be lost and there’s gonna be huge consequences. A compass gives us that fixed reference point. A biblical worldview or a Christian worldview is just basically orienting our life to truth. That is that fixed reference point. It doesn’t mean we have all the answers to all the questions. It doesn’t mean that the Bible prescribes exactly what we ought to do in each and every situation. What it does is it orients our hearts and our minds, our families, our communities, our cultures, to something fixed and unchanging, no matter how rocky the cultural moment is. And that’s why it’s essential. Think about then how damaging this, uh, lie is that we told a whole generation of young people, look inside, look inside, look inside, look inside. Where they need to look is up. Where they need to look is out. They need a fixed reference point. But by removing truth, we’ve removed that from them.
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: And then we wonder why there’s so much evidence of how lost they are.
Jim: You share the baton in this documentary collaboration between Focus on the Family, the Colson Center, with Os Guinness.
John S.: Right.
Jim: Os is a great friend of both of ours, and he is in his eighties. He has been around, he has an incredible life being born in China, going through Mao’s takeover of China, and almost starving to death. His two brothers died, uh, in that, uh, situation. And he was able to live off goat’s milk, and he and his mom and dad were able to get outta China. And it’s an incredible story. And that’s in the documentary where Os shares that. But Os talks about civilizational moments.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And he says, “You know, you either see it in museums, you see it as part of history, or you see a revitalization.” His hope, and I think all of our hope as Christians is for the West particularly to rediscover its core.
John F.: Yeah.
Jim: Now, in the US, like in places in Europe and Canada, I mean, those things aren’t really taught anymore, the foundations of our country at least. And the idea that people are created equal and that we’re created in the image of God and to create an environment of opportunity for people to lift everyone’s boat, which I think, again, this United States has been phenomenal at raising the boat for everybody, right?
John S.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But, but people are just, I don’t know, the, there’s just such a lack of gratefulness for what God has given us. What’s happening there and how do we reorient people to say the good things of culture can be restored-
John S.: Yeah.
Jim: … and we can find our hope again? How do we do that?
John S.: Well, listen, I think Os is as close as we have right now to a Gandalf for the church for this moment.
Jim: (Laughs) You’re right. Okay. Yeah, we get that.
John S.: You know, kind of the, the, the wise guru. And there’s two things in particular that I think I’ve learned from Os that are extremely important right now. Uh, the first is what you just mentioned, that we are living in a civilizational moment. We think about civilizations in history books and museums, because that’s where most civilizations are. What that means is, is that civilizations don’t last forever. You know, once dominant civilizations are now reduced to ruins because civilizations rise and fall, and there are actual rules to civilizations that will determine whether they have a future, whether they’re growing and building and expanding, or whether they’re dying. Os thinks that the west, which has been the dominant civilization on the planet for hundreds of years-
Jim: Because of its Christian roots.
John S.: Because of its roots, its strong roots that led the flourishing, roots like a fixed understanding of truth, the Judeo-Christian notion of God and certainly of the image of God, which grounded things like human dignity and value, um, and so on, that we’re at it now, a moment of, uh, of decline. He calls it being a cut flower civilization. So think about cutting a flower from its roots. You can put it in the water, and for a while, it’ll still be beautiful. It’ll still have shine, it’ll still have its petals, but eventually, if it’s cut off from the thing that gave it life, it will wither and die. And civilizations do the same thing. So historically, what we know is that when a civilization is cut off from the source that gave it vitality and life and flourishing, uh, that, uh, it either has to be reattached to that source, attached to a different source, which may be better or worse, or it’s gonna wither and die.
And we’re in that moment. It’s hard to, uh, know what it’s like to be in that moment. I mean, museums and history books can tell us that civilizations die. Sociologists can even tell us why civilizations die, and we can see some of the parallels today. But what’s it like to be in this moment? What’s our responsibility and calling as Christians? And that brings up the second thing really that Os has helped me understand, is the understanding of time that comes from Holy Scripture. The Bible describes God as being precise. In Galatians 4, “Just the right time, just the right place,” He sends the Messiah. We think about our calling as Christians as being called to maybe the mission field or called to the pulpit, or maybe being called to our particular job, our work. But the Bible also talks about us being called to an hour, called to a moment. And when you put those two things together that we’re in this critical moment in the history of our civilization and that we’re not here by accident, that God’s called us here, man, that is the ultimate way of creating that, well, how then shall I live crisis that I think the church is in. What is God calling us to be and to do in this time and in this place? And that to me is where Christian worldview meets the road.
John F.: Yeah.
John S.: Not just what we believe, which is super important, but how should we live and how do we connect those two things?
John F.: Mm-hmm. You know, I appreciate the wisdom and the passion from our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. John Stonestreet from the Colson Center. And, uh, we’re talking about Truth Rising, which is a film and so much more. You can learn more about Truth Rising and, uh, sign up to get updates and access to the premiere, September 5th. Uh, the details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: John, this idea of living what it is we believe is so critical. You know, we just released a marriage study and it showed something so critical in this area, the convectional Christian. And the way that most, uh, sociologists would define that is somebody who goes to church regularly, prays regularly. That group of people have better marriages than anybody else. They have less chaos and crisis in their marriages, and their divorce rate is the lowest. Now, we, in the Christian community would say, “Of course,” but people that live a more nominal Christian life, meaning, you know, they go to church occasionally, they pray occasionally, some of the highest divorce rates rest there. So it’s this idea that actually the proof in the pudding is when you put your faith into action. And we’re talking at a cultural level here, but it’s true at the level of marriage. You want the happiest, most fulfilling marriage you can have? Commit your life to the Lord and then live the faith. Be kind to one another, love one another. And what happens is you have less chaos and more love in your family. I mean, again, this is what we can do with the culture as well.
John S.: Yeah, that’s right. And I think this is, gets us to the job description, really, of what the church is to be in this moment, is to be the kind of place that helps people understand what is true and attach their lives to it in profound and meaningful ways. A time of civilizational crisis like we’re in is a time of reflection for individual Christians. Because if it’s true that God put us in this time and place, and it’s true that our actions really have meaning and purpose, listen, we are not just victims of civilizational forces we can’t control. We’re not just to be swept along with the tide of history. Um, God uses the faithfulness of His people to accomplish amazing redemptive things. And we know this is true not because of the chaos of the moment, but because of the biblical story. And the story gives meaning to our moment. What do we know from the story? That God created this world, that this world has fallen, and that in Christ, we have the potential for redemption, and the story is headed to the new heavens and new earth. So a time of civilizational crisis does not mean a time of biblical crisis. That truth is secure, and that’s the fixed reference point that we want to attach our lives to. In other words, I think a lot of Christians tend to use Christian stuff for benefit. And you know what? It is beneficial, it does work, but it’s not true because it works. It works because it’s true. The Bible gives us the actual description of reality as it actually is, it describes who we are as made in the image of God, and it describes how we can live out this faith even in a moment like this. And that’s really what this whole project has been about from the beginning. Will the church be the church? Will we live into this calling to this moment right now? And we’ve gotta do it personally, we’ve gotta do it individually. We’ve gotta do it in our own marriages, to your point, certainly in our own families with our kids, but also in our communities. And then that will have a civilizational impact.
Jim: Um, John, I wanna come back to something that you mentioned, but I want to drill a little deeper on it, and that is the disagreement over marriage, the definition of marriage, love, sexuality, and where the culture is tearing itself apart. I think one of the prime ministers from Australia made this point, um, that the engines of democracy still work, but we’re putting alternative fuel in that is choking them. I thought, what a beautiful illustration. He said, “If we can get back to the Judeo-Christian values of the fuel for the engines of democracy, the engine will purr.” And he related that to putting the wrong gasoline in his diesel truck, and it choked and sputtered, he went to the side of the road, had to empty and drain the gas tank, and then put the right fuel in to get that truck moving again. That does feel like where we’re at, all this stuff we’re trying and, uh, failing at. Uh, it’s not the way humanity was built or designed to work by God. So we need the fuel.
John S.: Right.
Jim: How do we, how do we do that successfully? How do we combat these newer ways of defining marriage and love and identity? Um, how do we say that is not gonna be the fuel that’s gonna lead us to success?
John S.: Well, first of all, we have to know the truth, right? I mean, and I think that’s a very important thing. And not only knowing the truth, but knowing what truth itself is. I mean, to your point, we embraced a definition of truth that was true for you, but not for me. Uh, or truth changes and evolves. I mean, these are all things that weren’t just kind of said by individuals. These were kind of ideas about truth that were put into the highest levels of our society and civilization. And now we’re seeing the fruit of these ideas. I talk about it as if it’s the difference between gravity and a speed limit. You know? I mean, speed limits are social constructs, right? A road is built, group gets together, looks at that road, and then we make a determination of how fast is safe to go on that particular road. If the social conditions change, well then the speed limit can change. The problem is, gravity doesn’t work like a speed limit. You can get a group of people together and say, you know, in our enlightened age, we think it would be more beneficial if gravity means going up and not going down. The problem is, “As soon as you step off the roof,” as Dallas Willard said, “You hit the ground.” You don’t go up. It doesn’t matter if you try to proclaim it. We have treated almost everything, uh, as if it’s a social construct. Uh, we, we’ve treated as if it’s a speed limit. We treated marriage that way.
We talk about male and female, we talk about the state and the role of the government. We talk about worship. We talk about God as if all of these things are speed limits, but what if they’re gravity? So knowing what is gravity and what’s a speed limit? Man, that is an incredibly important, uh, aspect of this. But it’s not just enough to know the truth. We have to love the truth. If you love the truth, you’re willing to stand for it and orient yourself to it despite the cultural pressure.
Jim: You know, John, I’m the parent of 20-somethings. Uh, there’s many parents listening that are parents of teens. And, uh, you know, the question is, in watching this and hopefully doing the study, how do we, uh, absorb that and then share that with our teens or 20-somethings?
John S.: Well, I, I’m the parent of both. I have a 21, 20-something-
Jim: (laughs).
John S.: … and the, and a handful of teens. Um, and I think this is a, a very helpful project for that because I think the world seems like, uh, a place that’s too big to comprehend. It’s too hard to understand it. And, and so then, uh, and there are of course, there are so many different voices saying so many different things to these young people, and many of them are saying things like, you know, you be you, just follow your heart. You can be whoever you want to be. So it’s lying to them about who they are as an individual. And this film I think accurately describes how that bad idea about what it means to be human has led to so much civilizational chaos. It’s not just that it’s not true, it’s that we’ve tried it and it’s brought disaster. And the various experts that are interviewed in this documentary, as you mentioned earlier, many of them not Christians. They’re coming at it just looking at the evidence going, “Hey guys, this isn’t working. We need to rethink this.” And then it also points back to the ideas that did make Western civilization flourish, especially the idea of the image of God and the existence of truth. And so I think one of the things that this film can do as you talk to your teens and 20-somethings is help them understand what we mean by the notion of truth, and that it’s bigger than just do you believe it or not believe it, but look at what corresponds to reality. And we have to orient our lives to that, even if there are voices saying different things.
Jim: Yeah. And again, hitting that identity issue-
John S.: Huge.
Jim: … and then their confidence in that identity.
John S.: Yeah, I think you can build confidence in that the truth is actually true. The end is not up for grabs. Chuck Colson used to put it this way, “Despair is a sin because Christ has risen from the dead.” When you stand confidently on quote-unquote, “The right side of history,” like that, then you’re not threatened in the same way as if you think it all depends on you, it all rests on your shoulders, and your ability to talk somebody else into your point of view. We should share truth as a beggar shares with another beggar that bread is available. We should share truth as if we are communicating the hope about this crazy cultural moment because it’s the hope of reality. That’s what the Bible actually gives us. It gives us not just truths about various things. It gives us the truth about everything.
Jim: Well, I think you know why I’m excited, John.
John S.: Yes.
Jim: I mean, this is a taste of what we’ve done. We’ve captured this in a documentary. There are, I mean, young people, older people in this documentary expressing their view, agnostics, atheists, Christians who are pointing to similar things that are going on in the culture. And I’m just so grateful that we were able to work with you, John, at the Colson Center and with Os Guinness. And, uh, you know, our partner in this, Jim Fitzgerald at ColdWater Media, who actually filmed for us The Truth Project-
John S.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … did such a fabulous job in capturing this. And it communicates a profound message. And I am, uh, so hopeful that the church will grab it, that non-believers will poke in and watch it. You know? It’ll be fun for them to watch it as well. September 5th, that’s the global release, the streaming date that we’re gonna do this. John also has a four-part curriculum that comes in behind it, and that’s where we want people to go to better understand our design, our identity, where we go, and what we’re called to do. And I think it’s gonna be revolutionary (laughs). And John, thanks again for being with us. Let’s come back and talk more next time about this. There’s so much more content to cover, but, uh, man, I’m proud to stand with you in this project. Thank you.
John S.: Well, thank you.
John F.: Yeah. Once again, the date is September 5th for the premiere, and you can sign up to get free access, uh, to that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: You know, John, let me just jump in too. Uh, we need your financial support. Uh, this was not inexpensive. I think we’re approaching two and a half million dollars to do this, and we took a step of faith to, to do it, and we had some seed investment, but we need to hear from you. You know, when I look at all the things we’re doing, and I know the Colson Center is doing great things too, and you definitely want to check out the Colson Center, here at Focus, I mean, last year, we had 292,000 decisions for Christ. That’s one of our strategic pillars to lead people to the Lord.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Because you can have a great family, but if you don’t know who the author of the family is, we kind of missed it. So that’s number one. Then to help your marriage, we have Hope Restored, where 80% of those difficult marriages, people that in many cases have already signed divorce papers, can come for a four-day intensive with an 80% post-two-year save rate. It’s awesome.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I think it’s one of the best things happening in the country. Then move to parenting and helping parents, then go to ultrasound machines being placed in pregnancy resource centers, uh, the abortion pill reversal, the social media that we’re doing to bring these clinics together-
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … under the My Choice Network for women who are searching for an abortion. We’re trying to offer them a different choice, a better choice to give that baby life with foster care. You know, helping a, a family consider adoption out of foster care, participating in foster care, respite care in foster care, and then engaging the culture, which is right where we’re standing here, John.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So, man, that’s what you’re giving to when you support the ministry. So let’s do this together.
John F.: Yeah. Donate generously. Uh, when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or online, you’ll find us at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Join us again as we continue the conversation with John Stonestreet, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Preview:
John Stonestreet: We’re a civilization that needs to be put back together, and the reconciliation that is possible through what Christ accomplished on the cross and in His resurrection is bigger than the world itself. The world can be put back together and God entrusts us with that message.
John Fuller: Well, that’s John Stonestreet, president of the Colson Center for Christian Worldview. And, uh, he’s our guest again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. John’s gonna be sharing ways that we can, each of us and then collectively as a church, live out the Christian faith. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: You know, John, last time we discussed with John, uh, this idea of applying the Christian worldview to our lives. That’s what’s so critical. We can read the Word of God and then not apply it. No benefit derives from that. You know, atheists read the Word of God. Some of the most informed atheists I’ve ever met can quote s- scripture, right? And it even says Satan knows that. Satan knows who the Son of God is. Uh, but we as Christians have got to embrace our faith and live our faith. And I think that’s one of the moments, that’s the moment we’re in right now when we see all of culture kind of crumbling. What is it God wants us to do in this moment? And if you missed last time, uh, download the app or go to the website and take a listen, ’cause I think it was really good, to hear from John and the ideas that we are portraying together in a joint project with the Colson Center in a new documentary that is called Truth Rising. It releases globally September 5th. It has a great follow-up curriculum that John has led, and he and Os Guinness have kind of tag-teamed in this effort to bring this alive, and Focus on the Family, we’re kind of the underlying foundation. We help pay for it, but we’re thrilled with this project.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we think it’s a great follow on to the Truth Project.
John F.: Yeah, that was, uh, some 20 years ago with Dr. Del Tackett, and, uh, this is made for such a time as this. Uh, this is a tremendous film. We’re so excited for you to see it. It’s gonna be available online, and you can sign up for access at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: John, welcome back to Focus on the Family.
John S.: Oh, thanks so much. We had a great conversation, uh, yesterday and, uh-
Jim: Yep.
John S.: … we, and we still didn’t cover it all.
John F.: No. (laughs)
Jim: No, and this will be a discussion for eons probably, right?
John F.: That’s right. Yeah.
Jim: Literally. Uh, you covered so much last time. It’s intriguing. I love this stuff. I think all Christians should love thinking about the culture we’re in, the fact that we’re placed here for this moment. And, uh, one of the scriptures that really helps us put this into perspective is John 15:19, which says, from Christ saying, “You are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world.” Now, some, John, might say, “Well, if that’s the case, just put the switch on and let’s go, and if the Lord’s gonna wrap this up, He’s gonna wrap it up.” Is that what He expects of us as the Church, or do we continue to try to bring the Kingdom of God to this earth through, uh, you know, expressing and, and telling people about who Jesus is and what this is all about?
John S.: Yeah. You know, there’s a way that the Bible talks about the world as a system, as a way of thinking, really as a worldview that tries to explain reality without God, uh, or, or tries to explain reality with a false God. And we are to be called out of that in the same way that the Israelites were called out of a pagan, uh, society and situation in Egypt. And it’s interesting. God pulls them out, and the first thing that He gives them, along with the law, is the Book of Genesis, the description of reality that begins, “In the beginning.” And the first thing that God gives them in this beginning was a new theology. In Egypt, they had learned that there was all kinds of gods doing all kinds of things, but now God wanted them to know, “No, there is one God.” And then He gave them a new cosmology, because in a polytheistic way of thinking about reality that gods have control over different parts and you have to appease all these gods to have fertility over here, or, you know, to have, uh, success in war over here and to have success in business over here or whatever, no, no, no. There’s an ordered creation that came from the literal language of God Himself. And then God gave them a new anthropology, because while they were in Egypt, the Jews were taught that they were slaves and that they were worthless and that they weren’t the same. And then God tells them, “No, you were made in my image.” Think about that brand new framing that doesn’t take them out of reality, it takes them out of the worldly way of thinking that they got from the Egyptians. And we know from the beginning that God created humans to bear His image to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. But think about what really should be called, I think, the greatest prayer in the Bible, Jesus in Gethsemane. It’s in John 17. And Jesus prays something there that seems to contradict the verse you read in John 15. He says, “Father, do not take them out of the world, but protect them from the evil one.”
Jim: Mm.
John S.: Isn’t that interesting? I think it’s because the story that the Bible tells of reality, that begins with creation and goes to new creation, that begins with the heaven and earth and goes to the new heavens and new earth is the story of God using the people that He redeems and reconciles, as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, to be agents of reconciliation, to be agents of renewal, to be forces, uh, to be reckoned with and bringing the truth of God to bear and the world that God made and is restoring and, and will be restored, uh, you know, at one day. I, I think that’s how we need to think about this idea of the world. We have been called to it. We have a place to play and a role to play in it, but we can’t do that if we’re not oriented fundamentally to what is true.
Jim: You know, John, I, I want to jump back for a moment. When you talk about Genesis. What’s really interesting to me when we’re looking at this cultural conflict, it’s like nothing new under the sun.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And it is almost like we are on full display right now, the human beings, that we know the better way. We ate from the tree of knowledge, and we think there are multiple identities for us, multiple genders. This is how we believe, as if we are God the Creator, not the created. Doesn’t it have a, a waft of that? I mean, it smells like, oh my goodness, we haven’t moved out of that moment. We’re right back in the garden telling God, “Yeah, it’s about us.”
John S.: Oh, listen, it’s more than a… What word you use? A waft? (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) Yeah.
John S.: I don’t know what that is, but it’s more than that.
Jim: Wafting through the air.
John S.: Wafting. Oh, got it. Yeah. Now, this is the same recipe. It’s the exact same recipe.
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: Um, and we need to understand that this is not just a recipe then that will play out in individual lives, although it has, and it will. We know the crisis of meaning. We know the crisis of suicidality. We know the crisis of family breakdown. We know the crisis, uh, that we see, uh, of international conflict and so on, and that tells us that it’s not just about the individual. This bad recipe will taste bad and smell bad as it infests entire families and cultures and civilizations. That’s what I think Os Guinness means in the project when he talks about this being a civilizational moment, that these bad ideas of trying to build a world without God have, have borne fruit.
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: And it’s not good fruit.
Jim: Let me illustrate one, and, and it’s another of the powerful stories in the documentary. It’s Chloe Cole, who we actually had on the broadcast, uh, some months ago, maybe a year ago now, young woman. At that time, she was 19, and she is a detransitioner. So at 12, 13, 14, she had made the decision that she wanted to no longer be female, but to transition to being male. And in there, it shows you the irony of this whole thing. Now, Europe went headlong in that direction. They had a whole hospital in Britain called Tavistock that was given to these therapies for minors, hormone therapy, surgical therapy, what we’ve now come to call mutilation of the body. And in that process, she realized she had made a mistake and she did not want to do this. But to the political side of this, John, Europe to its credit, looked at the data and said, “Wait a minute. We’re doing more harm than good. There aren’t more suicides from these people before they do the transition. In fact, more suicide occurs after the transition.” But they were sober-minded enough to now pull in that mutilation of these children. Here’s the other data point. When you look at it, gender confusion, gender dysphoria, 70 to 90% of children experiencing gender dysphoria will self-correct to their birth gender by age 19. Leave them alone. Europe has figured this out. We have not because it’s become a political game in the United States. And here’s the problem with it. To your point about God versus man’s, uh, wisdom, we are driving these children into a cul-de-sac of misery that they will not be able to get out of. And even Chloe describes that. She will have life-long surgeries now to correct the error of her 13-year-old way. That’s on us as a culture. It’s on, and it’s on Christians if they don’t speak out against it.
John S.: It’s so interesting to see specifically that issue kind of having played out in front of our eyes over the last several years. And unfortunately, tragically, the most prominent voices pushing back on those lies weren’t always Christian voices. There were a lot of Christian voices that were silent. And when we think about God putting us in this time and in this place, God has a job for us to do. When we look at what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, that those who have been reconciled are then given the ministry of reconciliation, Chloe Cole’s a story that represents tens of thousands of stories of young girls who were taught to hate themselves, who have been, uh, broken away from their true God-given identity. And they need the truth. It is not unloving when someone needs the truth, to tell the truth. And what I love about Chloe’s story is not only the fact that she had the courage in the middle of this transitional journey to say, “I’m not going to find what I’m looking for with these bad ideas and with these wrong therapies and with this terrible ideology,” but God in His grace reached down to Chloe and she actually found her true identity and who God made her to be and in Christ. Isn’t that the truth that God has entrusted the Church with?
Jim: Mm.
John S.: We cannot be silent at a moment like this. And unfortunately, sometimes we are. And I think it’s because maybe we’re not confident in ourselves in the truth. We certainly don’t want come across as being jerks or bigots or being unloving. But this gets to one of the core aspects of the Christian worldview. The Christian faith is not only personal, it’s public. It’s public truths about life in the world. There is a God. Humans are made in His image. Image bearers are made male and female. Men and women were made for each other in the bonds of marriage. And this is, uh, what is the best situation for children. All of this is in the book. It is a loving thing for us to be truth tellers-
Jim: And you asked-
John S.: … in a culture of lies.
Jim: You asked that question, which is, what are we saved for?
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What’s that answer?
John S.: Yeah. Well, I, I think it’s exactly what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5. You know, the gospel tells us what we’re saved from. We’re saved from sin. And praise God, He saves us from sin. It tells us what we’re saved to, that we’re saved to eternal life, an eternal relationship with God through Christ. And if that’s all there was to the gospel, what we’re saved from and what we’re saved to, it’s still really, really good news, and we need to tell that good news. But we’re also given in Holy Scripture what we’re saved for. You know, when I was a kid growing up in the church, I sometimes wondered if the whole point of this whole thing is just to go to heaven, why doesn’t God just take us to heaven the moment we’re saved, you know? And then I read in 2 Corinthians 5, that those who have been reconciled through Christ have been trusted with the ministry of reconciliation. Now, that word reconciliation is all about relationships, the relationships that God put us in and the relationships that have been broken by the fall. Sometimes, like in Chloe’s story, the relationship with ourselves can be broken. We don’t even know who we are. Those who have been put back together have a wonderful message to tell others. Not just individuals, but a world that needs to be put back together. I think Os’ main point here is that we’re a civilization that’s broken. We’re a civilization that needs to be put back together. And the reconciliation that is possible through what Christ accomplished on the cross and in His resurrection is bigger than the world itself. The world can be put back together and God entrusts us with that message.
John F.: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s a holy calling. And, uh, we hope you’re encouraged by what you’re hearing today from John Stonestreet on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Uh, we’re talking about Truth Rising. The film premiere is September 5th. You can learn more and sign up for free access online. The details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: John, I wanna put a story to what we’re saved for, and that is Hans and Sophie’s story.
John S.: Mm.
Jim: It’s so beautiful. Tell us about their story.
John S.: Yeah, the story of Hans and Sophie Scholl is a remarkable one. Here’s a brother and sister that found themselves at the University of Munich at, at time when dissent from the Nazi party was not allowed.
Jim: Mm.
John S.: Uh, but they were disgusted by what they saw, both in terms of the recklessness of the, the Nazi government, what they saw as the human rights abuses, particularly the treatment of the Jews. And so they started to resist. Um, they started to publish pamphlets under the name of The White Rose Resistance, and they distributed those pamphlets around the university campus. They mailed them to nearby communities. And we know that those pamphlets that they produced documenting the atrocities of the Nazis and, and all of those things went far and wide. In fact, on Liberation Day, when the Allied bombers over Germany and dropped leaflets to the German people and, and forming that, they dropped some of those pamphlets of The White Rose. They’d gone as far as the United States. But Hans and Sophie Scholl were caught, and it was when they were doing a distribution on the university campus. A janitor spotted Sophie, uh, trying to scatter papers quickly and, uh, turned them in, and they were arrested. In fact, not only were they were, were arrested, but within a time period of just four days, they were put on trial, they were accused, convicted, sentenced, and beheaded-
Jim: Hmm.
John S.: … by guillotine all within four days. Their story has become, uh, a remarkable story, uh, of faithfulness to what’s true even in the middle of terrible circumstances. Steve Garber, in his book, The Fabric of Faithfulness, is where I first came across the story of The White Rose and Hans and Sophie Scholl, and kind of summed up the way that they thought about their calling this way. “I am Christian, I am German. Therefore, I’m responsible for Germany.”
Jim: Hmm. Wow.
John S.: What a remarkable line. And you think about all the details of our lives that we don’t choose, you know, the time and place that we’re in, the country that we’re in, the family that we’re in. In a Christian understanding, those things aren’t random. Those things were intentionally chosen by God. He put us in this time, in this place, not in another time in another place. And I have been just kind of haunted by Os Guinness’ observation that we’re in this civilizational moment, because it’s not just a random context to which we find ourselves. It is a calling. And, and this is just directly in line with what I learned from Chuck Colson. What is God calling us to do? What is God calling us to be? Who is God calling the Church to be in this civilizational moment? And that, that kind of formula from Hans and Sophie Scholl, “I’m Christian. I’m German. Therefore, I’m responsible for Germany,” what would that look like for us? I’m Christian and I live in this 21st century civilizational moment. So what is God asking me to do to fulfill the ministry of reconciliation to which He’s called us to? I hope it’s not overwhelming. It is a little overwhelming to think about this, and I’m not saying it as if all the weight of the world and the future of w- the west rests on our shoulders. Look, the future of the western world is not the future of the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is secure. I don’t know if we’re in a Bonhoeffer moment where all of our efforts will come undone, or if we’re in a Wilberforce moment where all of our efforts, God will bless and bring renewal. I know God’s called us to this moment, and He’s called us to faithfulness in the middle of this moment.
Jim: John, what does it mean to apply the Christian worldview to our particular cultural context?
John S.: Well, you know, I think a lot of people realize that the Christian faith is personal. And it is. It’s one of the best parts about it, that the God who has revealed Himself in Christ Jesus is our personal Lord and Savior, which is great. But the confusion comes when we treat the Christian faith as not only personal, but as private. It’s just me and Jesus. That’s not what the Bible gives us. The Bible gives us the account of reality, the story of the whole world. What that means is, is that the culture that we live in is a moment. It’s not the whole story. It’s easy to confuse a story and a moment, right? Um, and it’s easy to stand in the middle of a particularly chaotic moment like ours and then doubt the story or lose track of the story. And what the story of a Christian worldview gives us is the larger context so that we can find ourselves in this moment.
Jim: That is really well said. Y- you know, bouncing off of that too, I’m thinking of the many 20-somethings, 30-somethings that I’ve come across on Christian campuses. I’ve spoken at their chapels, et cetera. I love it. There is such great potential in what the Lord is doing. Part of that right now, and you’ve mentioned this on Breakpoint, which is something people should sign up for.
John S.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I read Breakpoint almost every day, so thank you for that great work. But in Breakpoint, you mentioned that, that young men particularly are being drawn back into the church. What’s happening there?
John S.: Ah, man. I think that this is one of the most fascinating headlines because I’m old enough to remember the rise of the nones.
Jim: Yeah. Everybody’s leaving.
John S.: Th- that’s right. The nuns, not the N-U-Ns but the N-O-N-Es, those who would mark unaffiliated on a survey. That number was growing for the last 10, 15, 20 years, where more and more people were willing to say, “I’m not religious. I’m not religious.” That number has not only plateaued, it now is shrinking. And the number of young people that are religiously affiliating is now going up, and especially among young men. We don’t see the same trendline among young women, but we are seeing in the young, ar- around young men. You know, I don’t know what, what all the reasons are. I do think God is reaching out to this generation. You know, I think 10, 15 years ago, we were worried that young men couldn’t think past a tweet. Now they’re listening to three-hour podcasts. Um-
Jim: There’s something stirring their heart.
John S.: Something is stirring their heart. And I think it’s the vision of expectation. You know, many thinkers have talked about the tyranny of low expectations, and young men have been given low expectations for a long time. Their masculinity is toxic. They, they’ll never amount to anything and, and so on. I think that they are pushing back, and I think that they are seeking more. I think that it’s impossible for us to live without meaning for very long, and they’re on a search for it, and God is revealing it to them.
And I wanna say just something quickly too about what you said about, uh, whether the younger generation are Orthodox enough and so on. I don’t think they are. I, I think that they need to be more orthodox and more tied to truth. But if they’re not, that’s our calling.
Jim: Yeah, right. (laughs)
John S.: Our calling is to mentor them into this truth-
Jim: Right.
John S.: … and trust that the Lord is working in their hearts and is bringing them to a place of influence. And we’re seeing that He is and that there’s a great potential. So I don’t know what the Lord’s doing, um, uh, you know, in this time and place, but I always go back to what TS Eliot said. “For us, there’s only the trying and the rest is God’s business,” or what was on Chuck Colson’s desk for so long, “The goal is faithfulness, not success.” We leave the results to Him, but let’s be excited about what He’s doing in the world right now.
Jim: Yeah. That’s so good. Mentioning Chuck Colson, I mean, you were mentored by him. He did that in a different way. I mean, he and I had lunch three or four times. He called me, especially during transition here at Focus on the Family, and just encouraged me. It was very kind of him. But all of those things, and especially a deep dive for you taking over the Colson Center, that must have been amazing and just, you know, really helpful in so many ways.
John S.: Oh, listen, Chuck Colson was larger than life. I, I, he mentored and encouraged so many, and I’ve met them and they tell the story with such sincere, like you just did, of moments in time where Chuck really leaned in. And I, I had the privilege and the benefit of hearing him, uh, speak. He was so passionate and committed to truth. And at the core of this was the fact that, um, Christ saved him, and he never got over that. I mean, you were in rooms with Chuck Colson. He was always the smartest guy in the room.
Jim: Always. (laughs)
John S.: Uh, and what God did was take these enormous gifts that he had invested in his life and then redeemed them and then used them in remarkable ways. And to be a part of that legacy is just the highest, uh, of honors.
Jim: So good. There was a woman in your hometown who really impacted you. I think her name was Omega Buckner.
John S.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What was her story and why did it strike you in such a profound way?
John S.: You know, when we think about stories of faithfulness to where the places God has put you, I think of Omega Buckner. When I was in ninth grade, I met Ms. Buckner and, uh, she was, uh, a shut-in from our church. She wasn’t able to leave and we were sent to visit her, me and, uh, one of my friends, uh, against our wills.
Jim: (laughs)
John S.: There’s a whole story behind that. Uh, I was just in the ninth grade, and you know what? That visit was a pivotal moment in my life. I had no idea at the time ’cause I didn’t really want to be there. I had no interest really in getting to know her. But she prayed for us in a way that was really stunning. And I saw her a year later, and that’s a whole story of God’s sovereignty and providence over my life. And I said, “Ms. Buckner, you probably don’t remember me, but we met a year ago or so.” And she looked at me and she said, “John, I prayed for you this morning.” That woman prayed for me every day for the last eight years of her life. She could never leave the little apartment extension that had been built on the end of her grandson’s house. That was her time and place. And she had a profound impact on my life.
Jim: Mm.
John S.: About a decade or so after she died, I went back and had a speaking engagement in the community there, and I told her story and I looked around this room of about seven or 800 people and people were crying, tearing up, shaking their heads. And I realized before I even got into the details of how this woman had invested in my life and prayed for me and so on, that she had done the same thing for a whole lot of people.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John S.: I have a whole new understanding of what it means to be faithful to a particular time and a particular place. One would look at Omega Buckner when I knew her when she was between the ages of 89, and she finally passed away when she was 97, and think, “Well, she doesn’t have much of a calling,” you know, but she did. And if she can be faithful to her calling, can I be faithful to mine? If she can be faithful to the time and place where God placed her, can I be faithful to the time and the place where He’s placed me? If she can steward well, the sphere of influence, which one would look at and say it’s pretty small, but ended up changing an entire community, can I be faithful in the sphere of influence with the relationships that He’s brought before me? That’s what Truth Rising is all about. Yeah. You, we need to know kind of the you are here in human history where we are. It’s a civilizational moment, but the question is always, what are we gonna do in this moment? What are we gonna do with the calling that God has put on our lives as individuals, as His Church to this moment? How then shall we live?
Jim: Yeah.
John S.: And uh, her story has always changed how I think about that, how I think about faithfulness and how I think about leaving the results up to God.
Jim: Well, I mean, you’ve said it so well right there, and that’s the essence of what we’re talking about with Truth Rising. And John, again, I’m so proud that we were able to do this together.
John S.: It was an honor for us to do that with you.
Jim: And I hope it has just global impact, you know, that millions of people will watch it, some Christian, some non-Christian. For those that are non-Christian, that you would find faith and hope in Christ. That would be an extreme honor that that project would do that. For the Christian Church, that we would go deeper in our faith and hear that call and know the moment we’re in, and then do more to bring the kingdom of God to this earth that desperately needs it. So thank you for that. Thank you for pouring into that. Um, it’s not a capture of a moment, it’s life’s work for you that we were able to put on film, and Os Guinness as well. And it’s just again, an honor. Thank you for being with us.
John S.: Well, thank you. It’s always an honor to be with you and to work with you and Focus on the Family and with Os, and this is a remarkable project and we’re really proud of it.
Jim: September 5th, a global streaming event, and you can sign up at, uh, Focus on the Family. John will give those details. In addition to that, John’s worked on a four-part curriculum on the back end of that. We encourage you to get that as well so you can not end the journey with the documentary, but get that four-part series to deepen your faith to have a better understanding of the moment.
John F.: Mm. Yeah. Truth Rising releases on September 5th, and you can sign up for free access. Uh, the details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or give us a call, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And coming up next time, Dave and Ann Wilson describe the importance of unity in marriage.
Ann Wilson: I think that God knew that there was an enemy in the garden, and it would take the man and the woman linking arms, standing toe to toe, side to side, back to back, to defeat the enemy, that they couldn’t defeat him apart or alone. They would need each other to defeat the enemy.
John F.: Thanks for listening today to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.
