John T.: Look at Proverbs 4:23. It says, “Guard your heart, for from it flow the wellsprings of life.” Our heart is kind of all we have.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: You know, our, our values, and our passions, our emotions, our thoughts, where we’re going in life. And that’s inside our skin. That’s our ultimate boundary, is what’s inside of us.
John F.: That’s Dr. John Townsend; he’s our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We’re gonna be talking about boundaries, particularly in marriage today. And I’m John Fuller.
Jim: John, this is such an important topic. You know, the family is the foundation to culture, and healthy families deliver a healthy culture. And I think that’s one of the great difficulties we have right now is for the culture to understand the importance of family and commitment in marriage and raising your children so they’re healthy human beings. That’s part of what we’re trying to do here each and every day at Focus on the Family. We’re doing it in that Christian context, and that’s important to us. But, uh, our guest today has written a wonderful book with his colleague, Dr. John Townsend, along with Dr. Henry Cloud. And this is one of those books that every m- married couple should have because it helps us to better understand the choices that we’re making or contributing to breaking those loving relationships. And, uh, Boundaries in Marriage, this is deep stuff that will help you in such a great way.
John F.: Mm-hmm. And Dr. Townsend is a psychologist and bestselling author, and, uh, he’s written a number of books, obviously this one, uh, Boundaries in Marriage: uh, Understanding the Choices that Make or Break Loving Relationships. Uh, check it out. We’ve got, uh, the details at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Dr. Townsend, welcome to Focus on the Family. Welcome back.
John T.: Glad to be here.
Jim: Always good to have you. Let’s get into the content, Boundaries in Marriage. Let’s start with what is a boundary.
John T.: Well, simply put, it’s a property line. It’s whatever denotes the, the difference between what you are responsible for and own what you’re not. Now in our world, um, think about, um, your home. Your home, if you went to your county seat and you have an apartment, or a house, or a condo, or whatever, it would say, here’s where the line ends and begins. And what’s inside that home, if you’ve got a plumbing problem, it’s your problem. Now, I wanna be a good neighbor. I love my neighbors, and if they have a plumbing problem, I want to be there for all them. But ultimately, their plumbing problem is gonna be theirs and mine’s gonna be mine. And the way to look at it is, um, look at Proverbs 4:23. It says, “Guard your heart, for from it flow the wellsprings of life. Our heart is kind of all we have.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: You know, our, our values, and our passions, our emotions, our thoughts, where we’re going in life. And that’s inside our skin. That’s our ultimate boundary, is what’s inside of us.
Jim: No, that’s so, so good. You had a, a story that illustrates this. I think the names you used are Steve and Stephanie. What was hurting their marriage?
John T.: Well, same things that hurt a lot of marriages, Jim. Sometimes it’s just good old-fashioned pride and selfishness. Sometimes it’s immaturity where a person hasn’t had a lot of occasion to grow. Sometimes it’s not knowing oneself. But in this case, he kind of was a combination of those. Um, his interest, he was a nice guy, but interest in, in his career, his feelings, what’s interested into him. And she was sort of on the side periphery of his mind. Well, she had desires and dreams that which God gave her too about career and this sort of thing. But, um, he wouldn’t really engaged in that.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: If it didn’t have to do with him and his betterment, then she was kind of left out. And it was really hard and sad for her. So that’s what I had to point out to him. And one of the reasons they came to therapy with me was ’cause she had to set a limit, and the limit was we’re going to counseling. And when I got to him and started querying the, the history and all this, yeah, he did care about her.
Jim: Yeah, of course.
John T.: But he had a focus on himself that wasn’t a mature one.
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: Because mature people, they wanna take care of themselves, but they deeply love and sacrifice for others. And that’s what a lot of our work was with him.
Jim: Yeah. Why are boundaries important? It sounds almost antithetical to marriage, like we become one and you know, uh, boundaries are not appropriate for people becoming one. (laughs)
John T.: Right.
Jim: But why are they important?
John T.: And, and it’s confusing sometimes because you look at Genesis that they be one flesh. You look at Ephesians 5, where it says they are one and, and all this. And people say, well, what’s the stuff of, of me having in me? Well, here’s the thing. The Bible doesn’t just teach oneness. It also teaches that you’ve gotta be a complete person to come in and be that one. In other words, it requires a healthy two-
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: … to make the one. Because look, thinking about all the passages you read about completeness, teleos, you know, maturity, we are called to be complete individuals able to love and follow God, know our passion, know where we’re going in life. Those two people are supposed to be on the path to individual maturity. And they make a great marriage when they become one. Your problem becomes when a person who is not complete, not mature, not growing in the Lord in all, you know, career, and life, and values. When, when that person has not done that work and he or she marries somebody else to complete them, like that old Tom Cruise movie, “You complete me.”
Jim: Yeah, yeah, uh-huh.
John T.: Well, that’s not what the Bible says, or the science says. And then all of a sudden, the dynamic is. . . you’re supposed to be my strength ’cause I’m not strong. You’re supposed to be good at math ’cause I’m not. You’re supposed to be the lover ’cause I’m not a loving person. And the other person ends up being worn out and doesn’t feel valued.
Jim: Yeah. Carrying the load.
John T.: Carrying the load.
Jim: But it is really common. I mean, I think I have said that, that, you know, uh, the extrovert marries the introvert, the night owl, the morning person.
John T.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, part of this is humorous. But we are, it seems, at the 80-20 rule. We know there’s always exceptions, but it seems like we’re attracted to people that we have blank spots.
John T.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that is appealing to us ’cause we don’t have that.
John T.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Right? Is that a fair… But that’s different than being mature and complete in your character, your, your makeup.
John T.: Yeah.
Jim: When you’re, when you’re attracted, if you’re an extrovert, you’re attracted to a thinking, deep thinking introvert-
John T.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … which would be my case with my wife.
John T.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But, y- you know, in that context, is that generally true or is that something that can distort the boundaries?
John T.: I’m not sure it’s 80-20, but it could be. But the difference is the things about the fundamental aspects of character versus the styles that you appreciate.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: So the extrovert may be a very mature extrovert because it’s sure interesting to have you to be a reflective person and vice versa. Well, that’s great. But, um, when a person says, let’s think of some foundation of character development, like being able to make an attachment and be vulnerable and bring out emotions in others. If somebody says, “Oh, you’re the people person. I’ll be the one that makes the money. Or, I’m the task person.” That’s not just appreciation of a style. That’s the fundamental building blocks of what creates a mature person. If you’re saying, you’re gonna do the part that I don’t like to do-
Jim: Uh-huh.
John T.: … then you got a problem.
Jim: And in that context, that’s where that becomes a heavy weight for that, that one in the, in the marriage.
John T.: It does because we, I think God built us, Jim, to all long for completeness. And so, when you’re looking for completeness, like she’s gonna finish this for me, you know, she has good boundaries and I don’t have good boundaries, so she’ll be the strong one and I’ll be the easy to get along with Disneyland parent.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: And so they, they long for completeness, but they don’t wanna do the work or afraid of it. And the other person gets burdened with that. Well, I’ve gotta be the math person, I’ve gotta be the financial person. I’ve gotta be the relational person. And the person’s not saying, how do I learn from you? Which would be good. They’re saying, you’re better at that than me, so I don’t have to.
Jim: Um, you have literally counseled thousands of couples and talked to them about boundaries. What are some of the unhealthy, uh, examples of misunderstanding boundaries that you’ve encountered?
John T.: Well, let me give you kind of a triad of what the biggest elements of, of a good marriage are and then tell you what the, the stories are.
Jim: Okay.
John T.: Then you see what goes wrong. The three things that make a good healthy marriage, especially with boundaries, is first obviously love, you know, the sacrificial love we’re supposed to have, the Bible says. But the second one is freedom. I’ve gotta be able to make free choices, not compliant choices. I’ve gotta be able to say, I, I want to do this, or I don’t wanna do this and you not try to control me or gaslight me or whatever. That’s the freedom aspect. Love, freedom, and the third one is responsibility. I’m supposed to shoulder my weight, and I’m supposed to do my job in the marriage to love and provide and whatever, you know, my talents are, but I need to be responsible for my behavior with you. Then things go very well when bo- all three people are seriously committed to love, freedom, and responsibility.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: Now let’s get out of the equation, because boundary problems happen when somebody says, “You’re not free, you do it my way. I want you to be this, do this, pick this place.” And it’s not like, let’s talk about it and go back and forth. When there’s lack of freedom, and we know how important freedom us, as Galatians 5 says, that’s why Christ died for us. When a person doesn’t feel free, all of a sudden they feel controlled. And how do you love somebody when you feel controlled by them? And so, one example would be the, um, in this case, it goes both ways gender-wise, but uh, the controlling husband who says that I make the decisions here and you don’t have input. Well then, she’s not free. That’s a problem.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: And she’s gonna feel disheartened. She’s gonna feel lack of love. You now you’ve got some problems. And then next you move to responsibility. Now that’s different than the freedom and controlling part. It’s the part where everybody’s supposed to shoulder their burden. If you’ve got somebody who’s going to be a Peter Pan and says, “Well, I don’t like that. I’m a free person. I’m impulsive. And you do all the heavy lifting because I want to have fun,” all of a sudden you got another problem. Because a person par- starts to feel like, “Hey, I’m a parent and I’m married to a little kid here and I’ve got to clean u- up after your messes.”
Jim: Mmm.
John T.: So those are two examples where the three things of love, responsibility, and freedom get violated.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: And then somebody, sooner or later, it’s not the person who’s controlling, they don’t tend to call a therapist. And it’s not the person who’s the impulse person, the free spirit. It’s the person who’s having to take the weight and they call because they’re in pain.
Jim: Right.
John T.: And something’s not working. And then that’s when they need help.
Jim: No, that’s really interesting. And I, you know, digging into that control side, that freedom side or lack thereof, I mean, that’s such a common thing. I think too, the observation I have is these people aren’t even aware perhaps of how they’re doing that or why they’re doing that, what, what creates the need to control. Speak to that, is it insecurity or what drives a person in that context to over-control their spouse?
John T.: Um, it can be a number of things, but the one that you come up with a lot is that they don’t have self-control.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: The Bible says self-control is great. It’s one of the fruit of the spirit. And since they don’t have self-control over their behavior, and their thoughts, and their mind, they try to control the other person so that it works. So I’ll give an example. I was working with a couple where, um, the wife was artistic and he was sort of more the mechanical. And this could be a great marriage, but when she would be, you know, have a creative thought and he wanted to talk to about something like the news, or politics, or whatever, and she wanted to be creative, he would get upset with her ’cause she wasn’t following what he wanted. And I said, so what’s the problem here?
He said, “Well, she doesn’t, doesn’t listen to me, my interest in news and politics.” And I said, “That’s the wrong answer. She’s not perfect, but she’s not doing anything wrong to talk about creativity sorts of things. Your problem is not that she does that, problem is that you can’t stop what your line of thought is and listen to her.” And so, instead of you having the self-control to say, you know, I’ll get to politics later when she’s done ’cause we have a partnership and love, that’s a self-control issue. I’ll just put my desires on the back burner a bit and have some self-control. You try to control her, so she’ll talk the way you want her to. And the lights came on. I said, “You got your control problems because you don’t have self-control-
Jim: Wow.
John T.: … and patience.”
John F.: Mm-hmm. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Dr. John Townsend. We’re talking about Boundaries in Marriage. He’s written a really wonderful, rich, deep resource, uh, covering this very topic. Uh, check it out at our website and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And you know, Dr. Townsend, your book has so many different stories and illustrations, uh, kind of an extreme one was a woman who was married to a husband, uh, Regina Enley. He was an alcoholic for, I think in the book you said 19 years. So she had kind of put up with this and I can see where she’d be afraid about losing the relationship, but one day she kind of found her voice. It didn’t go like she might have wanted it to, but talk about kind of the boundary setting in that kind of extreme circumstance.
John T.: Yeah. And it took her a long time, John, as you mentioned, to get the courage. And the way the courage came was from her relationship with God and some really healthy loving other people-
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John T.: … that supported. She couldn’t do it on her own. She was just too, too terrified and thought she couldn’t live without him and that sort of thing. So what she did first was she tried the patience route. And if you ever worked with an addict, you need more than patience.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John T.: Because he just kind of stayed outta control and not really nice to her. But finally, as you say, she got her voice because she began praying and saying, “God, this, I’m not happy. The kids aren’t happy. I wanna be a loving wife, but I don’t know what to do.” She had no skills. And then she found a good support group of Christian folks that had read a lot of boundaries and material and said, “We will help you, because we see that some things going on and there’s no truth and love in your marriage. And we know that you wanna be that way.” So she didn’t start off with anything major. She just said, um, “This is a problem and I can’t, I can’t stop you.” Boundaries aren’t about stopping the other person, then you’re becoming controlling.
John F.: Right.
John T.: But it’s about we can’t abide with this. And so, I want you to get some help. Let’s see some people together, go to AA. And he fought it, and fought it, and fought it. And she went and got professional help. All that sometimes you have to do this where the person says, “If you won’t go to marriage counseling, I’ll go by myself. I’ll talk to the marriage counselor by myself with you not in the room.” A lot of times the spouse will go, “I wanna be in on that conversation-
John F.: (laughs) Yeah, exactly.
John T.: … if you’re talking about me.”
John F.: Yeah.
John T.: And they’ll go, but in this case he wouldn’t.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John F.: Yeah.
John T.: But she got great help, great church, great small groups and all that. And she finally said, um, “As long as you continue drinking and you don’t get any help, this isn’t working for us. And I may have to move to another room in the house or something like that.” And he blew up and said, “No, I’m just leaving.” And that was it. And for then, and he went and got an apartment because he didn’t have a problem, and she was the problem and all this. But the magical moment happened when she stuck to it and she cried and she did, she wanted to take him back because she missed him and all this. He started missing her.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John T.: He missed the love, and the warmth, and the kids, and the great times. And like the prodigal son wakes up in the pig pen. He was miserable and knew he was.
John F.: Mmm.
John T.: And so, he kind of grumblingly said, “I want to come back.” And to her credit, she said, “Not till we get help.” Because so many couples in these extreme cases, they’ll say, okay, we’re back together and everything’s great.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John T.: And but the person’s character hasn’t changed.
John F.: Yeah.
John T.: And their addiction hasn’t changed. She said, “I’ve got some counsel that says we need a coach who will tell us when we’re ready and you’re gonna see your, your counselor, I’ll see mine, we’ll see ours.” It was very complicated, but they did it. And when the coach tells us you’re both healthy enough, then you do a trial. And he didn’t like that either, but she said, “It’s not gonna work otherwise you’ll still be in the apartment.” And so he came and did the work, found out where the alcoholism came from, understood his own family o- origin, his own issues. Changed, got sad, repented, grieved over things, got new skills, got new friends. And the coach finally said, “Yeah, you tried it for three months and went well, I think you guys are okay.” And they’re okay.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Wow. That’s so good.
John T.: But it takes that sometimes.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: But it works.
Jim: John, you know, when we do a program like this, we, we have to say if the spouse is in a physically or deeply emotional abusive situation, separation is a good thing, to go to a place of safety. And I wanna make sure people hear that because some particularly, uh, women will feel like we missed the mark if we don’t express that need to get the wife and the kids to a safe place if the husband’s outta control. So I would assume you agree with that.
John T.: A- absolutely, Jim. You know, when you look in the Bible, um, there’s a lot to be said in reading about marriages, reading what the Bible says. It applies to marriage. For example, that passage I mentioned, Proverbs 4:23, guard your heart. Well, somebody’s being abused. They’ve gotta guard their heart. If the only way to guard their heart and their kids or whatever is to separate, they have to do it. Another one is shake the dust off your sandals sometimes. Another is let your yes be yes, your no be no. So there’s Biblical, all kinds of Biblical mandates for that. But here’s the thing that’s so important to know. There are separations in marriage and there are structured separations.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: Those are very, very different and have to be understood. Separation might be, well, this is not working. We’re both miserable. You just go over here and maybe in time you’ll be better. Well, time alone never fixed a character. You have to have time plus people that give you the truth, plus people that love you, that process and skills. It’s gotta buy time plus relationship plus truth and the growth process. That’s what a structured separation is.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: Structured separation is here’s your goals. You’re, um, you tend to be financially irresponsible. I had a wife that she just, he made it, he made a lot of money and she spent a lot of money and she didn’t think anything was wrong with that. And so they had to have a separation ’cause he, he was going bankrupt.
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: And so, but it wasn’t like, well, just go to your corners and then maybe one day you’ll be nice. That’s not how it happens. Nobody grows that way. She had to be with a financial planner, which she hated. She didn’t like that, but she got it. It was important to her. And she had to have counseling. She had to find what, what was it that money meant to her? And he had his own jobs about being codependent and, you know, being compliant and all that. They had their tasks of growth that were led by people who were mature. And then they came back together on a time level with structure. A structured separation, you’ve got a much better chance of the marriage, getting the marriage you never thought you could have.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: But separation alone just doesn’t do it.
Jim: Right. And you advocate for that in terms of separation can be a healthy thing to get your bearings, even the story you just shared where the alcoholic, uh, husband-
John T.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … came to his senses. You, you’re giving them a prodigal moment-
John T.: Mm-hmm.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … you know, that they can wake up because you’re depriving them of what they’ve enjoyed, the good things.
John T.: Right.
Jim: … the Godly things. And then they get, they come to their senses, to put it that way.
John T.: And he realizes it wasn’t just that she was the problem.
Jim: Right.
John T.: There was some problem, but he realized he had a problem and now you’re on the way.
Jim: Yeah. Let me, uh, for the young people, the 20, 30-somethings that are considering marriage, and maybe for those of us that ma- have been married a while, and we haven’t figured this out yet. You said in the book, you cannot skip out on maturity by marrying into it.
John T.: Hmm.
Jim: Wow! That is a statement for everybody. Um, it kind of goes back to that idea that you complete me and because I’m immature, but you’re mature, so we’ll make this work. But speak to that idea. What happens when couples try to cover for each other’s weaknesses in an unhealthy way?
John T.: Well, somebody regresses and gets more immature in finances, or relationships, or responsibilities, or child parenting, and all the areas of life. And somebody gets too much of the burden, and they start to feel drained and resentful, then where’s the love? Where’s the intimacy? Where’s the, I’m so glad God brought you to me? It’s sort of like, I am living with somebody who’s basically glad that I’m mature.
Jim: Right.
John T.: And then, and then you got a mess.
Jim: Yeah. I mean, it’s like emotional freeloading.
John T.: Yes.
Jim: I mean, I’m sorry to say it that way, but it’s the truth.
John T.: That’s a good way to say it actually.
Jim: John, right near the end here. And we’re gonna come back next time, continue the discussion to help married couples do better. That’s the goal. It’s not to, you know, unleash this conflict, but there is a goal in doing that. And it’s a healthier marriage, a better marriage. But I’m thinking of the spouse who’s married to that controlling spouse. It could be the husband; it could be the wife.
John T.: Could be the wife.
Jim: Both are capable of trying to exert control. It’s kind of their operating system. And she’s heard this today or he’s heard this today and he’s going, “Oh my goodness, that’s our problem. That’s one of our problems.” How does that spouse who is being controlled in an unhealthy way today broach the subject with the controlling spouse to say, “Honey, I heard something today.” How do you do that?
John T.: Yeah, that’s the question.
Jim: (laughs)
John T.: And there are answers for that. And, and you know, there’s different kinds of control too, Jim. There’s aggressive control, “You’re gonna do this, I’m gonna…” The threatening, scary stuff. But now we’re learning so much about a thing called gaslighting-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: … where you try to make them feel like they’re crazy and you’re the sane one and they question themselves. It’s all kinds. And that’s a manipulative, indirect control, whichever it is. When that spouse understands I’m, somebody’s trying to control me. Well, first off, realize all human beings are control freaks-
Jim: (laughs)
John T.: … ever since the fall.
Jim: No, not at all. Not me.
John T.: (laughs) I’m sorry.
Jim: (laughs)
John T.: We, it’s just universal. We tried to control God and everybody. But some of us are, have a bigger problem with that than others. Um, but generally speaking, that spouse who is really miserable in the, the position, sometimes her first response is to blow up.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: I call it ignore and zap.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: I put up with this for 20 years and, and then she becomes-
Jim: Bang.
John T.: … Godzilla and it’s not pretty.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: That didn’t help anybody. And the second one is, I’m gonna put a boundary on you. Well, that’s impossible. You can only set a boundary on you and hope the other person will respond. So we get to the sort of like beginning, I’m gonna get outta my unhappiness ones that don’t work. But the best one is to do what the Bible says. You go to Matthew 18 and where Jesus said, “If your brother sins against you, go to him.” And then it talks about, you know, speaking the truth and love to each other, and be vulnerable and all this. And sometimes if a person’s not a severe controlling boundary person, they’ll go, “You know, I’ve gotten that feedback before. I’m sorry how that affect you.” That’s where they, every… As a psychologist, I tend to look at issues that either normal, mild, moderate, severe.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: A mild person who’s controlling will go, “Yeah, I do that, and I’ve heard that I do that. I’m sorry. And what can I do different?”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: But then the Bible says, “If they don’t respond to you, bring two or three witnesses.” And then sooner or later there’s gonna be a separation. That’s the whole Matthew 18 thing about discipline. So you have to up the ante and escalate depending on whether the person’s normal, mild, moderate, severe. So the vulnerability didn’t work and saying, “Honey, I, this is hard for me. It’s hard. I feel, I feel controlled.” And if he says, “Well, it’s your problem,” then you have to do other things. You have to say, then you have to go to a, a warning, “Well, I’m gonna have to take some action on this. I’m not gonna control you, but I’m really hurting and if you don’t hear my pain and my vulnerability, I’ve gotta do something else.” And then you go get help. And then you, then you finally say, there’s gonna have to be a consequence. You just throw it at ’em. And we’ll talk about consequences at some point.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: So it starts with vulnerability and tenderness. And then they have to move to tougher ways.
Jim: Let me squeeze one more in because I think I want to end on a high note, which is how boundaries help couples experience more freedom in their marriages. It sounds oxymoronic ’cause you’re saying how boundaries help you achieve freedom. Uh, explain that.
John T.: It does sound oxymoronic, Jim. But as we know, there can be no intimate love without freedom. A slave can’t be in love. And so, when you don’t think you’re free to have your own mind, make your decisions, have your own opinions, because you’re walking on eggshells, you’re living in fear. And 1st John tells us, there is no fear in love. They don’t, they don’t do oil and water. So that’s why you have to have freedom so that you’re not afraid anymore.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: And so when you and your spouse work it through there, you both go, we can agree and disagree and I still love you, we’ll work it out whether you want to go out to, for Chinese or Mexican night-
Jim: (laughs).
John T.: … or whether we buy a house or not, whatever. But I want to hear your side of it. And, and so many couples just say, “Oh, we’re so different.” And this, this is the, the ending on a positive, Jim. I work with this couples and, and they’ll work on these issues and they’ll, they’ll make progress, and they’ll finally say, “We’re still very different. We’re not like, you know, clones. And I love it that she is so out there and kind of creative or maybe she’s the engineer and vi- and vice versa. And I appreciate it. And we disagree all the time and it’s great. And we’ll have these really direct talks about parenting, and in-laws, and money, and sex.” And then we have these, these and they’re kind of sometimes a little agitated and then we go have lunch.
Jim: (laughs) Right.
John T.: Because it’s not personal, and because both people are free and loved.
Jim: That feels healthy.
John T.: Then that feels healthy.
Jim: Dr. John Townsend, we’re gonna come back, like I said next time, but what a great resource you’ve created here. I wanna mention a couple of things. One is our Hope Restored marriage intensives, uh, it is an amazing program. We have locations around the country now where you can come. It’s typically a four-day experience and it has a post two-year 82% success rate right now.
John T.: Can I say something? I’ve sent people to that.
Jim: Yeah, no.
John T.: And it is miraculous.
Jim: Yeah. And there, i- i- it is, it’s an amazing experience for couples who are struggling. And, you know, about 30%, maybe 40% have already got divorce papers drafted and this is it. They’ll say, this is the last notch in the rope for us. And we say, come on, let’s do it. And again, 82% save rate. And it’s just reconnecting with the right things that attracted you in the beginning and how to learn how you behave and better ways to behave in your marriage, not to trigger each other.
John T.: Mm.
Jim: And it’s a very successful program. So get ahold of us. If you’re desperate, you’re in that spot, my marriage isn’t working. Let’s work on it together. That’s why we’re here at Focus on the Family. Another great tool is Boundaries in Marriage, uh, by Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. And this is deep good stuff. I mean, I would read this together, Jean and I will read this together. And even being married 39 years, there’s so much more that we can learn to build each other up and not tear each other down.
John T.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So get ahold of us. If you can make a gift of any amount, uh, we’ll send it as our way of saying thank you. If you can’t afford it, we’ll trust others are gonna cover the cost. Just get in touch with us and let us know you need this book.
John F.: Yeah. The starting point is FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast or call for details. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459.
Jim: John, thanks again for being with us. We’ll come back tomorrow and continue the discussion.
John F.: And thank you for joining us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we continue the discussion and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Preview:
John Townsend: What we came down to was that he thought that he’d been miserable in suffering ’cause he had no boundaries, and he had no voice. That’s the miserable place to be. So his choice was to do, have total freedom, but it was really selfish just ’cause it wasn’t taking her love and her needs into, into consideration.
End of Preview
John Fuller: Well, that’s Dr. John Townsend and he’s back with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to talk about how to set healthy boundaries in your marriage. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: You know, John, on the last episode, we covered some great examples of doing exactly that, setting some boundaries. I know for some you’re going, “Oh, no, no, no, I can’t do that.” Yes, you can. And it’s a good thing. We just need to do it in a healthy way. If you missed the program yesterday, uh, you can get the app for the, uh, phone or you can go to our website to listen. It’s easy to do and you have access to all that great content.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We’re gonna continue our discussion today with Dr. John Townsend on his book and Dr. Henry Cloud, Boundaries in Marriage. I, I know for some… I mean, it makes me a little, uh, to think about that, but that’s exactly why I need to hear this. I hope that’s true for you too.
John F.: Mm-hmm. And where we ended last time was how boundaries bring freedom in the relationship. Uh, Dr. Townsend is a psychologist and very popular speaker and, uh, and writer. Uh, as you said, Jim, his book, Boundaries in Marriage, uh, the subtitle is Understanding the Choices that Make or Break Loving Relationships. It’s a terrific resource. Uh, get a copy of the book from us here at the ministry. The link is at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: John, welcome back to the discussion. This is great. So appreciate it.
John T.: Thank you.
Jim: Yeah. Let’s pick up a little bit where we left off yesterday. And you mentioned kind of severity within marriage-
John T.: Hmm.
Jim: … and how you see things. It’s normal, mild, moderate, and severe. I wanna dig into that a little bit about, um, examples. We talked about even separation last time and a spouse’s need to maybe get out of danger, certainly, but also emotional separation until maybe the person, the spouse has an addiction they need to deal with or something like that. And again, if you missed it, go back, listen to it, or for the first time, go listen to it. In that context, what about the, the mild and moderate? It, it’s, separation is not what they wanna do, but they wanna get to a better place. So what are the kinds of boundaries that we need in our toolkit?
John T.: There are several, Jim, that are effective if they’re done the right way. We’ll talk about that. But, um, I’m gonna go from a bit linear. I’ll go from the, uh, the, the mildest ones to the ones where you have to have more severe consequences.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: How’s that?
Jim: That’s good.
John T.: All right. Well, first one is our words. You know, your, your words are kinda you. And so just to say, “That hurt my feelings,” or, “I don’t feel, I feel kinda dismissed when this happens,” or whatever. Words with… And we talked about this in the earlier show, words with a person who’s kinda mildly a boundary controlling person, they’ll just touch their heart and say, “I’m sorry, I’m, I repent. Let me, let me be a better…” And then we’ve got the truth. And truth is a little more direct. Like, this is a bad problem. And your attitude. And by the way, we talk about addictions a lot ’cause we’re all in the same world here. But it also could be attitudinal things.
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: It could be behavioral things, it could be, um, it could be judgment, it could be sarcasm, it could be cutting remarks, it could be shutting down and stonewalling and all those things. So there’s a number of, unfortunately, there’s a number of ways people can have problems in their marriage, but truth can help. So words and the truth. Then sometimes there’s consequences, and we’ll have later, uh, a kinda list of, like, what, what are they. But one would be, uh, like, an emotional one of, um, uh, I can’t be as close to you as I’d like to be, and so I’ll be with you. I’m here with you. We’ll have a life, but I can’t be vulnerable. If I open up, you kinda beat me up emotionally.
Jim: That’s a safety issue.
John T.: It’s a safety issue. And, and I meant beat you up emotionally, not just-
Jim: Emotionally, yeah.
John T.: It’s not safe when every time you’re honest with somebody about something that hurts if they, you know, attack you emotionally. Um, then one is, is emotional distance, which is similar. Like, I just, I’ll be here functionally, but you’ve been so harmful that, um, I’ll exist here. I’m not gonna be, I’m not gonna be irresponsible, but I’m not gonna be able to be the person I’d like to be with you. Then we move to physical distance. Sometimes I’ve gotta be in another room. If you say this, I’m gonna leave the room.
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: Or if you say this, I’m gonna be in the room and stay in the room. Or we’re gonna have to live in two separate areas or two separate houses sometimes if it’s really dangerous. Sometimes if- it’s a financial distance. Like, we’re gonna have to separate finances because one of us is uber irresponsible or one of us is uber controlling. And then there’s other people, other people are a boundary. You know, I think about David and his mighty men. I think about Nehemiah and his team. You have to have other people around you because you don’t have the strength to do this. And so many people have to be strengthened. In fact, I don’t know very many people who had a, a marriage problem that didn’t solve it using other safe people to let them know they weren’t crazy-
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: … to pray with them, to love them, to give them strategies to strengthen them.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: Other people are a great boundary. And then time. Sometimes people need a time-out to know, “Gosh, he was serious about what he said, that he wasn’t gonna be treated like that anymore.” So time away. So you use these in a w- different ways, depending on different situations. But your toolkit is an important thing to have.
Jim: Yeah. No, that’s good. Let’s move to this concept in the book about triangulation. I found that very interesting. I think Jean and I suffered from a bit of that probably early in our marriage where-
John T.: Hmm.
Jim: … you know, outsiders gave (laughs) input, and we would move in that direction and not say, “Okay, is this what we believe? Is this what you and I wanna do?”
John T.: Hmm.
Jim: And I think that’s common to most couples, especially early in marriage. But describe triangulation and what you’re getting at with the description.
John T.: Well, there’s healthy outsiders and there’s toxic outsiders. Outside’s not always bad. I mean, to have somebody who’s a, who loves the Lord and lo- wants your marriage to win and they wanna give some advice and, and have a good solution. We all need that because two people can’t fix a marriage. Two people can’t keep a marriage happiness. You’ve got to have the church around you and safe people. But there is a toxic outsiders and, and this is called, is called triangulation, as you said. When something you’re supposed to be processing in your marriage with somebody else, something about money or kids or, um, faith or business or whatever, and you’re stuck and then the other person comes in and meets that need, then that causes a rift. It’s a really an intruder in the marriage. Um-
Jim: And it could be girlfriend-girlfriend.
John T.: And it could be your children.
Jim: And boyfriend-boyfriend or children.
John T.: Hmm.
Jim: Wow, that’s a-
John T.: When one of ’em that doesn’t feel understood goes to their child and say, “Well, you really understand and we’re really friends and I can talk to you about your dad or your mom.” It happens when my chi- child is my best friend and we both kinda collude against that negative parent over there. So somebody’s gotta call it, somebody’s gotta say, “We need to have an me and you relationship, not a me moderated by the other person relationship,” because the, as you mentioned in your own life with Jean, um, it happens in all marriages where somebody is kinda getting fed information or me getting needs met, they’re supposed to be met in the marriage.
Jim: Hmm.
John F.: And Dr. Townsend, explain what happens when, uh, one of the spouses gets up the, the courage, I guess, to establish that, “I might have a boundary problem here. I need something, uh, for our relationship to thrive,” and, um, it’s not warmly received. It’s not like, “Oh, I’m so glad you brought that up, hon.” So give a script for how I can handle that if I’m bringing a, a boundary to my spouse and they’re not receptive.
John T.: I’m a big fan of role play, John. And that’s the act of working out a difficult conversation over a few minutes-
John F.: Yeah.
John T.: … with somebody else to kinda go through the anxiety and the head-
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: … the bad headwinds.
John F.: Hmm.
John T.: … and then all of a sudden you’re, you know… If you’re conflict avoidant a bit anyway and you don’t like that.
John F.: Yeah.
John T.: Who really loves conflict? You know, you start off at a, what I would call a spinal tap 11 in, in intensity and then it drops down to about a five-
John F.: Hmm.
John T.: … when you role playing, “I can live through this.” So practice, practice, practice. The script is do it and have them pretend like they’re gonna, you know, be defensive and threaten and all this and realize, “Okay, now I live past it.” Now the script when you’re really there would be when you say, “You tend to get mad at me a lot and it’s hard for me, I think you’ve got, it just feels like there’s this trigger and I can’t please you. And I just feel like you’re kinda come down my throat,” and the person says, “Well, think about all the things you do,” for example.
The answer is this, “I wanna be the spouse that God made me for you. And I wanna take the beam out of my eye. And if I’m doing anything like that, I wanna change it. I wanna be a changing, growing spouse for you. But we’re talking about this issue right now. So can we meet next week at Tuesday at three o’clock and you can talk about all the stuff that I do that bothers you and alienates you. I don’t wanna be that person, but can we focus on this?”
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John T.: So they know they’ve got their day in court.
John F.: Yeah.
John T.: But let’s stick to the point. Otherwise, you got two, three-year-olds, you know, in the, uh, in the, in the sandbox throwing sand at each other and nothing good happens.
John F.: Well yeah, we’ve had conversations where we’re talking about some marital issue and no kidding, it’s 15, 20 minutes away from the initial expression. And I’m wondering, how did we get here and what was the original?
Jim: (laughs)
John F.: So it’s good to roll play.
John T.: Yeah, and how did that rabbit trail happen?
John F.: Yeah.
John T.: But the way I look at it is, and Henry and I wrote a book about how to have that difficult conversation that addresses marriage and other relationships. One of the things to remember, when you’re the one calling the meeting, you know, is it, it’s Tuesday at three o’clock and the kids are down, we’re gonna have the talk. If that other person can rabbit trail you, well then, you’ve lost control.
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: Who called the meeting? Well, you did. Who is in charge of the outcome? Well, you are.
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: So when they start diverting or getting defensive, say, “This is hard for me, can we get back to it?” Or if you, you wanna speak to me next week or whatever. But it’s not bad control. You have to control the structure of the outcome, or it ends up being a bunch of useless rabbit trails.
Jim: You know, John, in the book you mentioned and encourage couples, uh, to start with asking their spouse for internal change before you say, “Stop this behavior.”
John F.: Hmm.
Jim: What’s the distinction?
John T.: Well, Jim, you know, Jesus talked about how there are trees and there are fruits and a good tree makes good fruit and a bad tree makes bad fruit. So if you tell somebody to change your bad behavior, well maybe they’ve got something, some work to do inside. Maybe they need need to let go of something or grieve something or admit something. Or maybe they need to get help. Or maybe they’re disconnected and they’re lonely and empty. ‘Cause that’s what creates the bad behavioral fruit in my life. And you can tell ’em to stop, but if the tree’s not healthy, as Jesus said, the fruit won’t change. So I think it’s really helpful to say, “And I know this has been a long time issue for you, sweetheart, but I’d like for you to maybe look at yourself and I’ll look at myself too, just know, no- nobody’s better than anybody else,” and see what might be driving some of that.
Jim: Yeah. You know, in the book. And I, I would say this feels to me like a very superficial thing, but I could get the severity of it. This was a story about Jen and Larry who were fighting over going to hockey games. Now I would say if you’re fighting over a hockey game-
John F.: (laughs)
Jim: … you’re probably watching too much hockey ’cause they fight so much.
John T.: (laughs)
Jim: But, uh, why were they fighting and what did you put in the book that we could learn from their experience?
John T.: Well, what we can learn is that sometimes we don’t speak up and set a limit and then we act that limit out later-
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: … in terms of resentment and, you know, quietness and sullenness and that’s awful. Nobody wants that. Jen’s problem was really that she had some fears of conflict, of bad things that would happen if she had a voice, if she spoke up. And, you know, we had no evidence that he was the kinda guy that would get mad or trigger or anything.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: And it seemed like Jen brought that into the marriage, who knows, from her childhood. But that’s what it had to be worked on. And the way I guess worked on is she understands why she’s that way, the fear she has, realizes that he’s a safe guy. And then once she’s done her own work on that, or during that process, she goes to him and says, “I gotta confess something. I’ve been making us both miserable at the hockey games and I don’t like hockey, and I haven’t really been direct with you about that ’cause I’ve been so terrified that you’re gonna be mean to me and you’re not a mean guy. And I’m sorry ’cause it’s gonna, we’ve maybe wasted some time. But I’ve got a voice now and I love you so much and I can tell you without any fear or maybe a little bit of fear, um, I really don’t wanna go. Or I’ll go maybe every now and then, we’ll compromise.”
Jim: Yeah. But it is having that voice-
John T.: It’s having a voice.
Jim: … to be able to say, “I don’t really like hockey.”
John T.: Right.
Jim: “Is it okay if you… Why don’t you take a buddy?”
John T.: Yeah.
Jim: “And I’ll stay home and take care of some things I wanna take care of.”
John T.: Absolutely.
Jim: And that’s, that’s healthy.
John T.: And with a healthy guy, he’ll say, “Well yeah, because you don’t ask me to go to your deals either, and that’s fine.”
Jim: (laughs)
John T.: “And, and we’ve got a great relationship.” I remember, um, one of the great quotes from, uh, Ruth Graham, Billy Graham’s wife. Somebody said, “Have you had this 50, 60, I can’t remember, year of marriage?” She said, “Well, that’s easy. Billy plays golf. I play bridge.”
Jim: (laughs)
John F.: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Dr. John Townsend talking about, uh, the book he co-wrote with Dr. Henry Cloud called Boundaries in Marriage, Understanding the Choices that Make or Break Loving Relationships. It’s an excellent resource and, uh, we’d invite you to get a copy from us at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: The idea, again, of freedom in the relationship. You know, I think as Jean and I have grown older and more mature in our now 39-year marriage-
John T.: Hmm.
Jim: … her trip with the girlfriends that she has from kindergarten, who has those relationships? (laughs) My wife.
John T.: Hmm.
Jim: And she has two great girlfriends that they once or twice a year get together. But just being relaxed about that, that is good time for her to reconnect with these deep friends and talk about where life is at, those kinds of things. Reciprocally for me to be able to go out and play golf with some buddies on a extended weekend or something like that, a getaway. Sometimes the relationship isn’t healthy enough to allow each other to do those things. And I would say early in our marriage we struggled with that space for each other.
John T.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, speak to that need to be able to say, “Hon, I really, this is good for me and it’s an important thing for me and it’s healthy.”
John T.: Yes, it does come back to the idea is that marriage is two completing people. They’re becoming mature in Christ with their emotions and their behavior and all, and all that, meaning that they can be independent as well as dependent with each other. So is having the conversation and saying, “I think you need space. I know I need space.” And the cool thing about it is that when you’re out there in those whatever you, you’re playing golf with your buddies or you’re going with your childhood friends, you get enriched. You get encouraged.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John T.: You feel more alive, ’cause you’re with it.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: You’re getting these other sources of relational nutrients. You come back a better spouse more to offer. So there’s no fear involved once you work through the fear.
Jim: And the fear often I think is rooted in mistrust. Like, how could you go do that and have fun with those people? Are you gonna be doing things that are inappropriate? I mean, whatever’s rolling through your head.
John T.: And the mistrust comes from dependency.
Jim: Correct.
John T.: I have a dependency issue that I haven’t worked out yet.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: Because if I’m afraid, if I’ve got a, a spouse who’s not out there being crazy and inappropriate.
Jim: Yes.
John T.: If I’ve got a, a good, healthy, normal spouse and I feel like these feelings of mistrust when they go off and with their friends, I’ve gotta deal with my own dependency issue.
Jim: Hmm. That’s so good. You know, I wanna hit the six types of conflict. I’ll just read the list and let’s come back and talk to a couple. Uh, conflict one, sin of the spouse. Well, let’s just stop there. That’s a big one. Sin of the spouse. What d-
John T.: A big one.
Jim: What does that mean?
John T.: Yeah, Jim. I mean yeah, th- we’re all sinners and we do this and there’s a, a number of ways that one person can say it’s their issue. And, and it is. It’s not, like, always both of us. And so in … in a minor way, maybe she shows disrespect and contempt to him. And, you know, if you look at Gottman’s research, you know, you see that men, uh, tend to sin more in stonewalling and shutting down emotional resources. And then women are more prone to, and when they’re stressed or activated to show contempt for the man, well then, she sins against him by showing contempt instead of love for him.
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: That’s a minor thing. Not really minor. It hurts, but it’s an attitudinal relational thing. It i-
Jim: Yeah, it’s subtle sin, I would say subtle.
John T.: It’s-
Jim: You know-
John T.: It’s so subtle, Jim.
Jim: … it’s not infidelity. It’s not addictions.
John T.: No.
Jim: But these are things that-
John T.: It’s a sin of one. That’s his issue. It’s not our issue, it’s his issue.
Jim: Yeah, and that poison the relationship.
John T.: It’s her issue, not, not our issue. Sometimes it’s just one person’s issue, then all the way to infidelity, which is the really awful stuff. And, you know, abuse and those sorts of things. Then there’s… The, the point is, of those six, there’s, sometimes you can’t say, “Well, the other person’s part of it,” they sort of are. But in reality, somebody’s got a problem that they must face.
Jim: Yeah, I stopped on the first one ’cause it caught my attention, sin of the spouse. Let me quickly just hit the others. Two, immaturity or brokenness of one person. Three, hurt feelings that are no one’s fault. Four, conflicting desires. Five, desires of one person versus the needs of the relationship. And then six, known versus unknown problems.
John T.: I’m glad you read those, Jim, because can I camp on one of ’em that really comes up a lot in marriages?
Jim: Absolutely.
John T.: It’s the brokenness of the person, not the sin of the person, but their brokenness and immaturity. And I’ll give an example. Um, maybe somebody’s a nice person, but he, um, he never really learned from his family of origin how to be, uh, have a work ethic, work steady, be ambitious, you know, this sort of thing. He just kinda has fun and he takes little jobs and they’re financially insecure. Well, in a way it’s a sin, but it also, it’s something that’s broken in him, but she’s walking on eggshells around him ’cause she doesn’t wanna upset him. Well, she has to sort of get the support of whatever she needs and say, “I love you, but we can’t keep living like this because we need a steady work ethic and person who wants to go to professional.” That’s what I meant by the immaturity of someone.
John F.: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah. And again, these are so seemingly subtle, but so destructive if you don’t maturely talk about them, set boundaries around that, if one of the two in the marriage are violating these things, right?
John F.: Hmm.
John T.: Yeah, think about all y’all’s listeners on this program and some of ’em are saying, “Oh, I’ve got a nip in the bud.”
John F.: Hmm.
John T.: And some of ’em are saying, “I’m way beyond that.”
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: But then it’s time to deal with it now.
John F.: Hmm. Yeah. John, I think the one that caught my attention was hurt feelings that are nobody’s fault, ’cause it feels like in a marriage relationship, it’s always somebody’s fault. What did you mean by that?
John T.: That’s a great question, John. Um, sometimes we’re just more sensitive about things than other people. And so, m- maybe somebody doesn’t like to be made fun of about the way they dress and, you know, they don’t talk about it and, but somebody says, “Well, that’s a bad outfit on you.” And all of a sudden somebody feels hurt. Well, he wasn’t or she wasn’t being mean, they were just saying, I’m telling you that it didn’t look great. And it’s those underlying feelings where nobody was being abusive or mean or anything. They’re just saying something, and somebody got their feelings hurt. And the way I talk about it when I’m working with couples I say, “Look, you guys have landmines in your heads. Every couple has landmines in there. There are different landmines between him and her, and you’re innocent and he’s innocent and she’s innocent. You just tripped over it. And when you said that outfit doesn’t look good or that s- those slacks don’t look good, you’ve tripped a sensitivity in the person, and they, they kinda triggered.”
Jim: You actually would say that?
John T.: Well-
Jim: I mean, I’m shocked.
John T.: Well-
Jim: (laughs) I mean, I’m just saying, any smart husband’s gonna say, “You look fantastic.”
John F.: “You look…” Yeah.
John T.: Well, it’s so funny because when I was thinking as I said that, Jim, I said pants so that you would think I was talking about the woman saying that to the guy, but it didn’t work.
John F.: (laughs)
Jim: I don’t think… Yeah. Do I look good? Great. Okay.
John F.: See?
Jim: You look fine. All right. That’s close enough. Let’s go.
John F.: See, the hurt Feelings are somebody’s fault.
John T.: (laughs)
Jim: But no, I mean… Well that’s a whole nother thing, but I get your point. I mean, it’s-
John T.: It’s innocent.
Jim: Yeah. It’s not-
John T.: “I didn’t know you were-”
Jim: It’s not meant to harm you.
John T.: Yeah. “I, I didn’t know you had sort of trigger there. I’ll be nice about that.”
Jim: Yeah.
John F.: Hmm.
Jim: You know, that raises a great point where you have a real, uh, catastrophic childhood, whatever it might be. And the, for the spouse, the triggers seem endless. Of course, that’s unfair to say it that way. But there are plenty. And it’s work to, for both spouses to identify those things and then to try to deal with it, put boundaries around it to help the spouse get to a better place. What about it in that plethora of pain that a child grew up in, that there’s insecurities, there’s control issues, there, there’s just these things that make it very difficult to get to a biblically healthy place. What do you do?
John T.: What a great question to bring up to couples who go, “We have a problem that’s bigger than us. And we’ve been trying to solve it thinking the ma- the two of us can solve it together.” What if somebody’s going broke every mo- every year, then you go to a Dave Ramsey and you get help.
Jim: (laughs) Right.
John T.: What if somebody doesn’t understand their Bible? You go to a good church where they learn their Bible. And we get out of the, we are this self-contained unit, just us and Jesus, because the Bible doesn’t say that we’re supposed to have… Like, in 1 Peter 4:10 says that we’re the stewards of his manifold grace. We’ve gotta have our, our own grace and God’s grace, but also the body’s grace around us to deliver what we need. So somebody who’s had a very traumatic and catastrophic, awful dysfunctional family-
John F.: Hmm.
John T.: … I probably wouldn’t say infinite. Jim, I agree with you.
Jim: Yeah.
John T.: I’d probably say something like, “This is bigger than us. I feel overwhelmed by this, and we’ve been working for a while. We need to go to specialists who deal with this and have seen a thousand of these situations.” Get the help outside the marriage, whether it’s financial or theological or emotional.
Jim: Yeah. John, another one of those types of conflict was the needs of one person are against the needs of the relationship. You had a story in the book about Riley and Emily. I think it really, uh, tells the story of where we need to be careful through their example.
John T.: Yeah. Riley, the, the husband had grown up compliant and sort of fearful of letting people down and kind of a uber, uber rule keeper. And Emily was sort of this person, but she had a, a bit of control and so she kinda ran things, and then he started changing. And people do change over life. And then he started wanting his freedom and his voice and supposed to have that. And then he went too far. It reminds me of, um, of Proverbs 30 where it says that the earth trembles when a slave becomes a king.
Jim: Ooh.
John T.: Well, was a slave to his fears. And then he started going, “I got a voice.” And man, he let her have it. And he was kind of like, “I’ll do anything I want to. I can spin whatever I want to. You’re not the boss of me.” He was on the way to being healthy, but he wasn’t yet healthy. And the pastor very wisely said, “Riley, you’re confusing freedom with selfishness.”
John F.: Hmm.
John T.: What we came down to was that he thought that he’d been miserable in suffering ’cause he had no boundaries and he had no voice. That’s the miserable place to be. So his choice was to do, have total freedom, but it was really selfish just ’cause it wasn’t taking her love and her needs into, into consideration. So I had to change his idea about the suffering he was in. He wanted to have a suffering free life. “I’ve been in jail all my life. I now I’m gonna do…” No, you can’t yell fire in a cry at a theater. So I had to say, “That’s not what good marriage is.” You’re still suffering, but it’s a higher level of suffering.
Jim: Hmm.
John T.: You’re still gonna suffer if you’re gonna be with this woman the rest of your life until we go to glory. So instead of the suffering of, of being, you know, afraid and not wanting to speak up and feel even afraid of rejected, you’ve now gotta suffer with letting her have her needs met too and enjoying her needs and being part of those needs. And that’s suffering, ’cause we’re all selfish. And that’s a higher level of suffering that can bring you great love and great intimacy.
Jim: Yeah. And it, it’s that pendulum effect, isn’t it?
John T.: That pendulum effect.
Jim: It’s like you’re recovering or you’re coming out of a bad place, and you jump 40 spaces to another bad place leaping over the good place-
John T.: Right.
Jim: … the healthy place.
John T.: Or, like, a really young kid at two years old, this wonderful little kid becomes this, you know, what is this?
Jim: (laughs)
John T.: They’re saying no running around the supermarket.
Jim: The terrible twos-
John T.: The terrible twos.
Jim: … is what they call that.
John T.: And then they become a nice person who can speak and go to college and make the world a better place.
Jim: (laughs) It’s, it’s a great example. Dr. John Townsend, this has been great. Your, uh, wonderful book here, Boundaries in Marriage, I think every marriage needs a copy of this. We’ll make it really easy. If you can join us in ministry and make a gift of any amount. If you could do it monthly, that’s great. A one-time gift, that’s good too. Uh, if you can do that, we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of helping other marriages. If you cannot afford it, hey, we’re into making your marriage the best it can be. Just get in touch with us and we’ll give it to you, and we’ll trust others will cover the cost of that. That’s pretty easy. Uh, we just believe in, uh, Henry Cloud and John Townsend’s content that much, and we love the rootedness it has in biblical truth.
And so, get in touch with us. Also, we have our Hope Restored program where it’s a four-day, uh, intensive. It’s got an 82% post-two-year success rate. Meaning we go back to every attendee. We don’t cherry-pick those. We go back to everyone and say, “Are you doing better? Are you still married?” And 82% say yes and yes.
John T.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And so, that’s a really good thing. We’re here to help you make your marriage the best it can be.
John T.: Hmm. Well, you know, Jim, what I always prescribe to people, and this is not about me, but it’s about the book, is that it’s nice to have a his and hers.
Jim: (laughs)
John T.: One’s on your nightstand and one’s on their nightstand, and they read the chapters together, underline things and they talk about it. So it’s not like, “Oh, my spouse got this book that I’ve gotta read.” We’ve got our own. And so, I would be happy to provide the second book in that couple if they will use it.
Jim: Well, that’s really generous.
John T.: Kind of a buy one or donate one and get another.
Jim: Yeah.
John F.: Yeah, take the steps, uh, by getting a copy of this book, Boundaries in Marriage, or by learning more about Hope Restored. We’ve got details for you at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast or call 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459.
Jim: John, before we sign off, tell me about the institute. I’ve spoken there a couple times via Zoom, but tell me what’s happening.
John T.: Actually, you’re one of the fellows institute.
Jim: (laughs)
John T.: People have accomplished a lot of things and you’ve helped our students so much. Um, the Townsend Institute’s part of Concordia University, Irvine, California. And we’re a fully accredited online program that provides a doctorate in counseling or a master’s of credential. Also, a master’s of credential in coaching or a master’s of credential in an organizational leadership. Got hundreds of students, tons of great careers. And if somebody thinks this, this might be the opportunity for their next step, we’d love to talk to ’em.
Jim: That’s good.
John F.: And thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
