Preview:
Trisha Davis: And I really convinced myself that you can just be a little bitter. That bitterness has a tendency to always grow. It’s like a cancer that grows. And it doesn’t just affect your marriage relationship, it affected all of my relationships. And I think in that moment, I was just desperate for change, and I didn’t know how to receive it. I was willing to pray the prayer, I wasn’t willing to live it out.
End of Preview
John Fuller: Mm-hmm. That’s Trisha Davis, uh, describing a very troubling point in her marriage. And a lot of couples can get stuck in unhealthy beliefs and behaviors. And, uh, we’re gonna explore that today, what those challenges look like, and how you can have hope for your marriage. Welcome to another episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, i- it sounds so simple, but it is this kind of rut analogy. You know, you get into a rut, that’s what we talk about, and it’s hard to get out. And we keep doing the same behaviors over and over-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … thinking we’ll get a different outcome, but we don’t. And, uh, today’s program is gonna be one of those things that’s like a aha moment-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … to say, you can get outta that rut, but you have to make decisions. You have to change things. You have to move in the direction the Lord wants you to move. I’m looking forward to it. If your, uh, marriage is in a spot where you feel stuck in that rut, uh, this program’s gonna be for you. And, uh, it’s, it’s a wild ride, but we’re so grateful for our guests.
John: Yes, we have Justin and Trisha Davis here. Um, their story is pretty incredible. They’re pastors. They’re the founders of RefineUS Ministries, which is all about helping people build or rebuild healthy, authentic relationships. And together they’ve written a book, uh, that forms the foundation for our conversation today. One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles That Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back. And you can learn more about this book and our guests at our website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Justin and Trisha, welcome back to Focus. It’s been a few years.
Trisha: It has, yeah.
Jim: I think 2013-
Justin Davis: Yeah.
Jim: … so it’s-
Justin: Thank you for having us back.
Jim: Great to have you back. I mean, your story is a phenomenal story, both, in both directions. Both in its darkness, but then in your growth in the Lord and what you’re able to share with others, other struggling couples. So I’m looking forward to it ’cause I know the story and it’s a good one. Let me start there. When you got married, I’m sure you thought like Jean and I, maybe you and Dena too, John. This is awesome.
John: (laughs)
Jim: This is gonna be wonderful. This is a, this is so poetic, this is great. And then it kind of starts to happen, right? Like, year two, year three. But did you guys have that kind of attitude that you were meant for each other?
Justin: Well, our relationship started with love at first sight. Um, I was in love with Trish. She was not in love with me.
Trisha: (laughing)
Justin: And so that was, that was the genesis of our relationship, of really me trying to convince her that she should go out with me. Um, but that wasn’t necessarily her viewpoint at the time. But we met in Bible college in 1993-
John: Mm-hmm.
Justin: … and just began to spend a lot of time together. And-
Jim: Was the Bible written back then?
Trisha: I don’t know.
Jim: (laughing) 1993.
Trisha: I don’t know.
Jim: I’m kidding.
Trisha: (laughs)
Justin: The Bible-
Jim: That’s…
Justin: … app wasn’t. (laughing)
Jim: That, that’s-
John: Right.
Jim: … true. Okay. Fair enough. But that, that’s great. That is how it starts, right? Romance starts that way and, you know, you get, you see each other, and then you begin to maybe fall in love over time. When did you catch up to Justin?
Trisha: (laughing)
Jim: And you were going, nah, I’m not interested?
Trisha: You know, when I landed in Bible college, I grew up inner city in Joliet, Illinois. Um, you know, my dad didn’t make it past the eighth grade-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: … and my mom got pregnant her senior year of high school. So I wasn’t college-bound at all.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: So when I got to college and then Bible college, it was like drinking out of a fire hose, where Justin, I think, he had more familiarity with Christian culture in that context. And so I was, I was pretty prickly in a sense of very guarded, and Justin was the man on campus. I mean, people called him JD, and I called him Justin.
Jim: (laughing)
Trisha: And so that it wasn’t just-
Jim: Didn’t catch on with you.
Trisha: It did. Yeah. It, it wasn’t like, um, just towards Justin, I think I was just kind of overwhelmed. But we did, we became good friends. He was a basketball player and I was a, a cheerleader. And we were at a smaller college, so we all drove on the same, you know, broken-down bus together.
Justin: (laughs)
Trisha: And we became really good friends. And when we fell in love, we had this idea that… This formula that wasn’t taught to us, I think it was caught. That if we love each other and love God, and then we were going into full-time ministry. As long as we did those things, our marriage, of course, would just go up into the right. It was a deep belief that that’s what a successful marriage was built on.
Jim: And I think that, that’s most people’s feelings, right?
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Especially as Christians, we tend to… I think we’re right there with you. And then things start to happen, cracks start to develop. Um, who was the first to go, okay, there’s some cracks in here? The foundation isn’t as solid. I, I think it was you, Trisha.
Trisha: Yeah. And, and not really even having that framework to even say that.
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: I just knew something was not right. And part of it was circumstantial. We were married for four months when we found out we were expecting our first-
John: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: … child.
Jim: Okay. That was-
Trisha: So-
Jim: … fast, yeah.
Trisha: … Justin graduates from college, we go to our first student ministry. And so for me personally, in one year, I went from college life to married life to mom life. And there wasn’t a lot of time to recognize what we were doing wrong until things went wrong. And so, just the tension of just the season of life we were in, we were just always kind of at each other.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And then we would go to church and pull ourselves out by the bootstraps and just figure out how to fall in love again. It was kind of that was the cycle.
Jim: Yeah. What would you say were two or three of those things that caught your attention though that, okay, we’re not as up and to the right as healthy as we thought we were? Just for those listening.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: Maybe they’ve been married three years and they’re going, “Ah, that sounds like us.”
Trisha: I thought I could change him. And when I figured, you know, a couple of years into marriage, I couldn’t change him, I, I took the things that he was doing personal, like, they were against me, and then he became my enemy.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And so, rather, you know, taking it to God in prayer, praying together, I had these unspoken expectations that Justin should fix the issues that I was having. And when he wasn’t fixing them or wasn’t doing ’em the way that he, I wanted him to, the tension was we were always, like, missing each other. Our motives were wrong.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And so I deeply always loved Justin, but my motives for wanting him to connect with me weren’t always healthy, and I just didn’t know it.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. So you get married, you have a child right away. You’re developing, I think, church ministry.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: You’ve graduated.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: You’re 10 years now into your marriage, Justin, you’re thinking, “Yeah, I don’t know that I want to keep doing this.” Describe where your head was at and what was happening for you.
Justin: Yeah. I think when we realized that we couldn’t change each other, we moved to this place of trying to build a relationship on milestones and achievements. So if we could just, you know, make more money. If I could just, you know, go into a larger student ministry. We started using things of accomplishment and achievement as thinking that that was gonna bring us closer together. And so seven years into marriage, we decided to plant a church for people who didn’t go to church. We’d never done this before. I was 28, Trish was 26. Uh, we found out a week before we moved to plant the church that she was pregnant with our third child.
John: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And we had just developed this culture of achievement that we… Okay, yeah, our marriage isn’t necessarily always romantic, and it isn’t always the best or what we thought it was going to be, but we were doing great things for God.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And if we continue to produce for God, that’s going to give us the marriage ultimately that, that we want. And so we, we start this church with 12 people, and three years into this church plant and 10 years into marriage, um, we began to really drift apart. And the church is growing like crazy, but internally, I know that things are not right. In my relationship with God and in my relationship with Trish. And it wasn’t necessarily these big things. It was these small indiscretions of taking one another for granted. It was not having new arguments. It was the same argument over and over and over again. And it was also, as Trish mentioned, those unspoken expectations that become unmet expectations.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And so you don’t start your next argument at a level two, you start at a level six because nothing was resolved from the previous argument.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And those unmet expectations began to really just erode the intimacy that-
Jim: Yeah.
Justin: … we were experiencing in our relationship to the point that our, our marriage crumbled and imploded.
Jim: Right. And in that context, ground zero, I think most couples would agree that’s what you would call it, you ended up sharing something with Trish that changed your lives, really.
Justin: Yeah, yeah.
Jim: What happened?
Justin: I came home from church on a Sunday afternoon and, and Trish was, uh, laying down for an afternoon nap, and I said, “Hey, we need to have a conversation.” And she said, “Okay, a- about what?” And I said, “About us.” And she said, “Well, what about us?” And I said, “I’m done.” And she said, “You’re done with what?” And I said, “I’m done with you. Like, I’m out. I don’t wanna-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Justin: … be married anymore. I don’t wanna be in ministry anymore. I’m not in love with you anymore. I’m having an affair. It’s with your best friend, and I wanna be with her.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And I wish… You know, almost 20 years later, I wish it was a confession of remorse and I wish it was a confession of repentance. It was just really a confession of resignation.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Trish, where, where were you at? I mean, hearing that is devastating, obviously. How did you process that? And what, what was your response?
Trisha: Looking back on it, I was not trauma-informed. I didn’t have the-
Jim: Right.
Trisha: … language to understand how I kinda moved through that experience. But a couple of days before, I, I didn’t know anything was happening, but I think I kind of did.
Jim: Oh.
Trisha: And I remember going… Um, you know, we were church planners, so we weren’t like rolling in the dough. And I remember going to this, like, fancy store and buying, like, an outfit to make myself… I was leading worship the next morning. And, that’s not my personality at all, but when I walked into church, people were like, “You look so beautiful.” And the one person I was looking to say that to was Justin-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: … and he didn’t. And I remember, like, leading worship that morning and just going home, n- not just exhausting because we were, you know, setting up and tearing down, but it was like that day the Lord was preparing me something, something was about to break.
Jim: Even, even though… I mean, it wasn’t a hundred percent.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: It’s like, you didn’t know for sure, but you-
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: … feel, like, a-
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: … preparation was occurring. That’s amazing.
Trisha: It’s like watching the movie, and you’re like, “Girl run. Why are you not running?”
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: And they know they should be running, but they’re not running. You know, it’s like, it’s like one of those experiences of, like… Looking back on it, I think the Lord was preparing me. But nothing prepares you for that moment. And the shock of it was, you know, rock bottom, where in that one confession, I, I lost everything. My, me and my boys, they were like nine, seven and, and two. We never went back to the church. Like, our life literally ended with one confession, and we ended up losing our home. We lost our community, and the only thing left was my faith.
Jim: Yeah. I, you know, that, that devastation occurs far too often. And I’m sure people that are watching on YouTube or listening-
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … have gone through something like that.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: And it’s that moment, it’s crushing-
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … ’cause it changes everything. You say in the book, though, it was more of the symptom. You know, it’s hard to think of that. That feels like the stick of dynamite going off. It’s the cause of the explosion, but you described it more like this was the symptom of what was occurring. What, what was underneath the symptom in that regard?
Trisha: How much time do you have? (laughing)
Jim: Yeah. Okay. That’s fair. Call us, (laughing) and you can talk directly with Justin and Trisha.
Trisha: In the immediacy of that moment, it was survival. It was, um, and I, I shared this story when, you know, when we were on Focus on the Family, you know, the first time. I went back to that college formula that if I just love God and love Justin, we can fix this. And so I just need Justin to come home. And he didn’t wanna come home. He wasn’t broken. And so I remember my mom handing me the phone, and it was a counselor from Focus on the Family.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And that guy, I’m sure he quit after talking to me because I was-
Jim: Were you the reason he left?
Justin: (laughs)
Trisha: It was probably the reason I left. And I just told him all the things that I was, you know, lamenting, and I just needed him to come home. And he said, “If you really love Justin, you’ll let him go.” And I wish I could say I responded so kindly, but I didn’t. And I told him he was a really bad counselor and (laughs) he should not be… You know, I was like, “That is the worst advice ever.” It was counterintuitive.
Jim: Sure.
Trisha: Because if God is love and I’m supposed to love my husband, why wouldn’t I fight for him? But he was showing me a choice that needed to be made that I never understood. I didn’t understand the why behind it. I said, “If I let Justin go, he’s going to choose her.” And he just responded and said, “He already has.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: “Until you let him go and allow God to do the work that only He can, you will continually be his scapegoat for all of his issues.” And that moment changed my life.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: That was the moment where faith went into action, that I had to make a decision to take steps to remove him from our house and out of our whole entire story. That day was the hardest day because I remember packing his things up. It was worse than death because he was alive, he just didn’t wanna be with me.
Jim: Right. And, you know, we set this program up today talking about those ruts. That’s what that sounds like. This was a moment when you did it differently-
Trisha: Yes.
Jim: … and got out of that rut. And so that cycle was not gonna continue in that way. It may have created other difficulties, but that…
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It was gonna be a, a new route.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: Justin, you almost sound so calculating and, you know, kind of cold.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, this is done emotionally. You’re all sewn up, you’re not, you’re not connecting there the pain you’re causing. I mean, how were you processing this blunt statement?
Justin: Yeah. I think anytime you make a decision that you’re going to intentionally go against God’s plan and God’s best and you’re going to bring harm and hurt to those that love you the most, you have to almost emotionally cut yourself off from the carnage that you’re causing. And so it was a very dark time in my life, spiritually. It was, it was a very intentional act that I had made, and I didn’t know what was on the other side. I didn’t think that healing could be on the other side of that. And so I only knew what I knew and how broken I was, and I didn’t want to leave any room for doubt. And looking back on it now, I can see that anytime you try to go against God’s best, there’s so many consequences that you don’t think through. And there’s so many ramifications that if you knew what was on the other side of that decision, I could have confessed a lot earlier than I’d had. And there would’ve been consequences, but they would’ve been a lot easier to restore. And so now the work ahead of us was very deep and very profound.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John: Mm-hmm. We’re hearing very candidly from Justin and Trisha Davis today on Focus on the Family. And, uh, we’ve got their book, which captures this story and so much more. It’s called One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles That Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back. And, uh, you can get a copy of this book from us here at the ministry. We’ve got the link at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Let me ask both of you this, um, because you’re speaking to something that’s, my impression is, very common.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We tend to, even as Christian couples, to think we’re good.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: It’s my spouse who’s not good.
Justin: (laughs)
Jim: And if they could just get fixed. You even use those words. If you could get fixed then we would be okay. What makes it so difficult in that recognition? And Justin, you had to go through that.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: Because you were, you were the cop writing the ticket. You haven’t met my needs, Trisha. I’ve made a decision. It’s cold and calculating, but I’m finding love over here with your best friend, and I’ve made the decision. I’d like to divorce you and be with her. I mean, it’s kind of the summary-
Justin: Right.
Jim: … of what you were-
Justin: Right.
Jim: … saying.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: So it sounds like in my ear that you’re saying, I’m good, you’re not.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How do you then go to, Lord, look in my heart and show me-
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … where I am not good? ‘Cause that takes humility.
Justin: Yes.
Jim: And in that moment, we’re probably not very humble as spouses that think we’re right.
Justin: (laughs) Well, I think for many of us, what we tend to equate success in marriage is pain avoidance. And so we look at the absence of conflict as the presence of intimacy, rather than allowing conflict to present and prepare us to experience intimacy.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Justin: And so, as I was evaluating my relationship with Trish, because we had so much conflict and we felt like we were always missing each other. And it felt like all she wanted to do was change me, and all I wanted to do was change her. I didn’t recognize that there was an opportunity there to not just experience behavior modification by checking a list off of things that are gonna make Trisha happy, but really experience heart transformation by allowing God to transform me from the inside out. And so as we began to go through the restoration process, I didn’t want just God to fix our issues. And I didn’t want a 2.0 version of our marriage; I wanted a brand new relationship. And in order for that to happen… God promises resurrection, and He promises new beginnings, but the problem with resurrection is something has to die. And that had to be my pride. It had to be my agenda. It had to be my sinful choices. And honestly, it had to be the first 10 years of marriage that had to die so that God could resurrect something different. And that doesn’t come without pain, but this time it was going to be redemptive pain and not the destructive pain of sin.
Jim: That cycle of shame that you’ve described you, and you experienced obviously in the aftermath of your affair. Uh, you and Trish eventually, after doing separate counseling, went to counseling together. How long did it take to get to that counselor? And what was that first counseling session like?
Trisha: Ooh.
Jim: (laughing) Was it days or weeks, or months?
Trisha: We hadn’t spoken for 10 days. And part of that, you know, all these years later… A, a way that I put it is, you know, boundary. We have some buzzwords in our world, and, and boundary is kind of a, a, a buzzword. But I believe that boundaries are the most lavish act of love that you can put in place in a relationship. Because you’re saying, I, I care enough about how this, um, relationship mends that I’m gonna put the work in to create boundaries. And so the first 10 days weren’t to punish Justin. I knew I could not find healing in a way that I needed to, to make the right choices without carrying the weight of his. And so it wasn’t right away, it was… You know, I tell people who are in, in crisis in their marriage, we kind of just want to know the end, and then it’s fine. Once we can get to the end, we’re good. But in healing, we’re waiting for the pieces of the puzzle. And the pieces of my puzzle to our restoration is Justin wasn’t broken the first, you know, couple of days, and that’s what I was operating with. So there was no room to go to counseling because he didn’t want to.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: So that took time and really leaning into the Holy Spirit of just knowing, like, when, when is this a boundary, and when is this self-protection out of not wanting to get hurt.
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: And so it, it was very organic. And the first one was, I think, we cried through the whole thing. Um, but 30 days into counseling, we got to this place where it was, like, I was starting to trust Justin again and believing, you know, who God says He is in His Word, that He creates us new. And then the counselor said, “Justin, if you’ve left anything out, now’s the time to share.” And he knew he had left some things out.
John: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And so he had shared a couple of things, and I, I left that counseling, you know, 30 days in, and instead I was filing for divorce-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: … because he was incapable of telling the truth.
Jim: Yeah. I mean, that’s a devastating moment.
Justin: Yeah.
Jim: But that was probably where you were making that decision, okay, this is too much.
Justin: Yeah.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s over. And it dealt with pornography, addiction, and some other things-
Justin: Yeah.
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that you had never shared.
Justin: Yeah. I was sexually abused when I was a kid and never told anyone about it. I had a pornography addiction that, um, I was d- in denial of. Um, and after I finally confessed that to Trish and the counselor, um, the counselor was equally as disappointed in… Not equally, but he was disappointed in me as well for being untruthful those first 30 days. But it became a confession that was not about my marriage anymore. I really wanted to break cycles of addiction and break cycles of brokenness in my own life that obviously now affect my marriage and, and are benef- you know, they benefit my marriage. But this really became about me and my relationship with God. How was I gonna be a person of truth? And how was I going to finally find freedom from these things that I’d been carrying? You know, the sexual abuse happened when I was five years old, and I’d carried that shame. You know, when you’re a victim of abuse, the shame that you carry, I don’t think anyone can quantify for you not doing anything wrong.
Jim: Yeah.
Justin: But it begins to affect the choices that you make and how you see yourself and, and how you see God. And so it was finally, that was the breakthrough. Obviously, it was a painful breakthrough, but Trisha eventually came to this place where she said, “Now we can start over. Now we can be getting it ’cause I finally know the real you.”
Jim: And I need to tie that in a bow ’cause you’re leaving the counseling session saying it’s over.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: What made you turn the corner, make the U-turn from that emotionally to-
Trisha: Well…
Jim: … come back?
Trisha: In the context of that counseling session that I left, he had shared details about the affair. And I, m- my mentor, uh, Joan, I, I called her and said, “You know, let him know I’m filing for divorce.” And she called Justin and said, “This is your moment. She’s filing, so you need to fight for her.” And this was… Honestly, this was the significant shift of me where I started operating out of not my will, but God your will be done. Which was really hard because I felt like God had gotten a good deal with me. I was faithful in my marriage. I was a church planner, which is like next to serving in the nursery, like-
Jim: (laughs)
Trisha: … is a whole other special, you know, you know-
Jim: You were doing-
Trisha: … work.
Jim: … all the right things.
Trisha: Yes.
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: And so now I was going to counseling, doing the right thing, and this is where I was at. But that was when I realized my theology of being a rule follower is not the same as being a Christ follower.
Jim: Wooh.
Trisha: And-
Jim: Yeah.
Trisha: … if it was about rule following, we wouldn’t need Christ on the cross.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And so it was this reminder that the ground is level at the foot of the cross. And while I and Justin were still sinners, Christ died for us. He still chose me. So I remember praying, “Okay, Holy Spirit, help me understand how to choose my marriage. Not choose Justin, but how do I choose my marriage? What’s the next step?” And I just felt like so clearly the Holy Spirit said, “One more time.” And if you wanna know if I’m from South Side Chicago, I was like, “I don’t know about what my…” You know, (laughing) like, all of these things are coming out of me in my prayer time. That’s what I love about Jesus. Like, we don’t have to be vetted, He, He can take all of our ugly, and He’s the one who makes it beautiful. And I was so ugly with Him that day, but I said yes. And that following Monday, Justin came in and that’s when he shared the abuse and shared… And there had been this ache. You know, the Bible tells us in, um, Romans, I believe, uh, 8:26 or 28, somewhere in there that “we don’t know what to pray, that the Holy Spirit goes before us with groans. There are no words.” And I felt this groan. There was something always off in our marriage, and when Justin confessed everything, that had gone.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: We had finally hit rock bottom, but rock bottom was still solid surface to stand because we were standing on truth.
Justin: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: And so I said to him, “Now we, now we can start over.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Trisha: Because you can’t have a relationship without trust, and trust is built on truth. So even when it’s awful, ugly truth, it doesn’t allow Satan to then whisper that very simple statement that gets us in trouble from the very beginning of a very, our very first marriage relationship with Adam and Eve of did God really say. And I could have did God really say myself right out of this marriage.
Jim: Sure.
Trisha: But that’s what changed for me.
Jim: Yeah. I mean, this is powerful, and we’re leaving people right at the moment where they’re going, wow, this is describing a part of my relationship, or we went through that, or I wonder if we’re going to go through that. And I just wanna make sure that, you know, to call us here at Focus on the Family. We have caring Christian counselors-
Trisha: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that you experienced-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … Trisha.
Trisha: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, you know, they’ll do their best to talk with you, pray with you, give you additional resources, et cetera. Uh, but get in touch with us. You can start by getting the book, which is a good start, One Choice Away From Change, if you’re feeling like you’re in that place. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you as our way of saying thank you. If you can’t afford it, just get a hold of us, we’ll send it to you, and trust others will cover the cost of this.
John: And I’ll also mention Hope Restored, which is our marriage intensives for couples that are on the brink of divorce or struggling mightily to break the cycle. Uh, learn more about Hope Restored, uh, about our counseling team and about this book, One Choice Away From Change, at our website, or, uh, give us a call. The link is at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or, uh, give us a call, 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY.
Jim: Justin and Trisha, this is so good. I mean, we are right in the middle, and so we want folks to come back and join us next time if you guys will. (laughs)
Justin: Absolutely.
Jim: And, uh, kind of tell the rest of the story.
John: Mm-hmm. And on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Join us again next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
