Day One:
Man #1: For me, anxiety is kind of a constant thing. I fight it a lot, and it’s just that persistent feeling that something’s wrong, but I couldn’t really tell you what it is.
Woman #1: When I’m anxious, I think about the situation over and over again, and I notice it more so in my chest with my heart racing a little bit.
Man #2: When I get anxious, it’s like I drank too much coffee. I mean, my mind is racing and I’m jittery.
Woman #2: When I worry, I get butterflies in my stomach.
Man #3: So at times when I get anxious, I get a little bit of heartburn that just kind of builds up in my chest and, uh, just kind of makes me feel a little sick and nauseous.
John Fuller: Well, I wonder if you can relate to any of those comments. And if you or someone you know does and you’re dealing with fear or worry or anxiety, hang on because we’ve got some great help for you today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, you can just look at the news. It seems like there’s been a can of anxiety opened up, and I think spiritually speaking it’s true.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I think we are a more anxious culture than we’ve ever been. And everything is causing us worry and doubt and we’ve gotta … as the Christian community, we’ve gotta get a grip on this. I had a- a friend of mine who’s a non-believer, say, if you guys are worried, we should be really worried as the non-believers. Isn’t that interesting?
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It is.
Jim: What are we projecting as the church in terms of our faith, our hope? And I don’t mean that to sound like a guilt thing ’cause we have to deal with anxiety. We have it in our extended family. Uh, so we deal with this as well. Like many other people are. I think the CDC report was as many as 50% of 15 to 25 year olds are dealing with anxiety and depression. So this is something that is hitting almost everybody, and I think it’s gonna be a topic that will really equip you or help you directly. So stick with us today.
John: Yeah. This affects our family as well, Jim. And I just want to tell our listeners and viewers, we do have caring Christian counselors here, and, uh, I really want to encourage you to connect with them. Reach out to us. We’ll schedule a time for them to give you a call back. And, uh, that’s a really good starting point, if this is something you haven’t really tackled, uh, personally. Uh, that number is 800-A-FAMILY. And, uh, Jason and Tori Benham are here. Uh, we love having them here. They’re, uh, gonna share their own stories and experiences about dealing with anxiety, uh, about the deep dive they’ve done into the Word of God in order to really provide hope and practical help. Uh, they’re coaches, speakers, and authors, and they have a podcast called Beauty and Battle. They’ve written a number of books, and the one we’re talking about today addresses this topic. It’s called Unshakeable: A Proven Plan to Crush Anxiety, Defeat Overwhelm, and Conquer the Fears That Freak You Out. And, uh, we’ve got the book and you can learn more about, uh, getting a copy and our guests when you go to FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Jason and Tori, welcome to Focus on the Family. Once again, good to have you as always.
Tori Benham: Thank you.
Jason Benham: Love being with you guys.
Jim: Now, just for the viewers and listeners, you’ve been married how long?
Tori: 25 years.
Jim: 25 years. My wife would say this about watching football. If I just knew things about the player, I’d be more interested. Like, are they married? Do they have children?
Tori: Yes.
Jim: So how many kids do you have?
Tori: (laughing) That’s so true. Uh, we have four kids. Our oldest is 23, and then the baby is 15.
Jim: Alright, so you’re still … you still got action at home.
Jason: We’re two and a half years away from empty nesting guys.
Jim: Yeah. Well, so you think.
Tori: Yeah, that’s true. (laughing).
Jim: Let’s let ’em think that.
John: Let them come back … Yeah.
Jim: Empty nest happens at 19.
John: They’re a bounce back.
Jim: We’re just gonna let you live in that, uh, idea.
Jason: Don’t steal my hope.
Jim: You know, anxiety, I set it up there, it does touch everybody. And just about every family directly. And we’ve had it in our family and our extended family. First of all, when we’re looking at anxiety, it’s not fear.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: There … I mean, God gives us a sense of fight or flight that sometimes is survival. So what’s that difference between fear and kind of debilitating anxiety?
Jason: Oh, yeah.
Jim: And I think you had-
Jason: That’s such a great question.
Jim: You had like, uh, burglar or something?
Jason: Oh my gosh, we did. I’ll tell you that story in a second. Actually, I’ll have Tori tell you that story. She lived it probably even greater than I did. (laughing) But, um, fear is about a present or a past threat. Anxiety is a future threat. Anxiety is projecting fear into the future.
Jim: Ah.
Jason: And the specific fear is honestly the loss of control.
Jim: Hmm.
Jason: So as we define anxiety in our book, Unshakeable, we talk about how fear is projected powerlessness. It’s projecting powerlessness into the future. And we got that from the story where Jesus … remember when He was teaching the disciples, and then He tells ’em, “Hey, let’s get in the boat and go to the other side.” And then He goes in to take himself a little cat nap, and then the wind in the waves. All of a sudden this massive storm comes up and, uh, what do the disciples do? Well, they freak out. They’re like, we’re gonna die. And you gotta remember, these are professional fishermen. These are dudes who made their living on the sea, and yet they thought we are going to die. And they woke Jesus up and they’re like-
Jim: (laughs) It’s funny.
Jason: … “Come on, man. Get up.” And Jesus, what’s the first thing that He does? He rebukes the wind in the waves. Then He turns around and he rebukes the disciples. Why? Because they required him to calm down what was on the outside before they were calm on the inside. And what they said to Him reveals to us that they were operating not by fear alone, but by anxiety. They said, “We are going to die.” What does that mean? That means that we’re not dead right now, but here’s what’s gonna happen. This boat is gonna tump over at some point, and we’re all going to end up in the ocean and we are going to sink to the bottom. We’re gonna black out and we’re gonna drown. Like they’re projecting powerlessness into the future. We’re not gonna be able to control it. Jesus, don’t, you know, this is happening to us. And so Jesus is like, “Stop all that.” Can you imagine if Jesus woke up and He found the disciples rebuking the wind in the waves, but … and then He would’ve commended their faith. So those guys were projecting powerlessness into the future and Jesus actually rebuked them for it.
Jim: And I like that definition. But Jean and I have fallen into this little trap of binging on I Was Prey.
Jason: Oh.
Jim: This cable show. You guys know about this?
Jason: I’m not familiar with. Is it P-R-E-Y?
Jim: Yeah. P-R-E-Y.
Jason: Okay.
Jim: So it’s about human beings that are out hiking or they’re in the ocean, and all of a sudden they’re being eaten by a shark.
Jason: Okay.
Jim: Or gnawed on by a bear. So I- I would say yeah, that’s true. You wake up with the storm and you know-
Jason: Yes.
Jim: … you’re freaked out for something the Lord knows. It shouldn’t be something you’re freaked out about.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: But I’ve watched enough of these shows with Jean to say-
Tori: Yes.
Jason: Right.
Jim: … if a- if a grizzly is gnawing on my head, I am freaking out. And this is fear time.
Jason: For sure.
Jim: So there is time for fear.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: So take us to your story of your burglar?
Tori: Okay. Yes. Okay. So this was years ago. The kids were really small and we … um, it was at the time we had our master bedroom on the top floor and we had an alarm system. And because Jason traveled often.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: And I- I’m a naturally fearful person. Um, and so I required that if he was gonna be on the road, that we had to have an alarm system. And so we had this alarm system, Jason’s home, and in the middle of the night, I think it was like 2:00 A.M. we hear glass shattering. Your worst nightmare, right?
Jim: Yeah. Like the worst nightmare. What’s happening.
Tori: And just this huge bang followed by the alarm going off. And in that moment, Jason and I, you know, jumped to our feet. Your adrenaline is just kicking and-
Jason: It sounded like a fire truck in our living room.
Tori: Yes.
Jason: That’s how loud the alarm was.
Tori: And Jason’s reaction was to yell downstairs, “Get out.” Like, because that was just like-
Jim: I’m coming for you.
Tori: Yes. You know, like, we’re here. Like, you know, speaking.
Jim: That’s good. That was good. You get points for that.
Jason: I did too.
Tori: Yeah. But then the funniest part was what followed is that this-
Jason: Oh, geez.
Tori: I- I don’t know, it was like a primal instinct and he just like growled.
Jason: Please don’t tell him.
Tori: He was literally like-
Jason: I did.
Tori: Ahhhhh.
Jason: I did.
Tori: Like a scream.
Jason: It was bad.
Tori: And it was so funny.
Jim: This is a rerun for the real deal someday, if it ever happens, but-
Tori: I mean, this was real-
Josh: So bad.
Tori: … real legit fear. We were both freaking out. And so Jason, um, he makes out this huge scream and then, um, he kind of like literally gets on the floor and kind of army crawls to get the kids.
Jim: You trained.
Jason: I did, down the hallway.
Tori: Yeah. It’s almost like he was trained for this moment. And he- he tells the kids to get into the bedroom. I’m- already called 911 telling them what happened. We heard this loud bang, and now the alarms going off. They said, “Get into the master bathroom.” So we lock ourselves in the master bathroom, we’re on the phone with the police. We’re like, okay, intruder is in our house. I mean, it’s so scary. Police show up, like a bunch of police show up, all the lights, everything. And I’m looking out the window watching them. They’ve got their flashlight, they’re looking through the windows trying to find where somebody came in. And then they … Uh, did they crawl up to the window?
Jason: Yeah, they- they … we- we looked down from the window-
Tori: We had the window opened, and they said, there’s no sign of intrusion.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: I had to give my man card over to them, and I’m up in the window, you know, on the second floor. And I’m like, “Hey, we good?” They’re like, “No signs of forced entry, you can come down.”
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: So I’m like shaking, walking down the steps. You know.
Tori: He walks down the steps to find that the- the-
Jason: Motion detector, like the sensor.
Tori: … motion detector had just … like, just fall to the ground and it shattered.
Jason: That was the glass breaking.
Jim: It fell off the wall.
Tori: It fell off the wall and it shattered. Yeah. And so I’m upstairs, I’m like … I see Jason walk outside and start talking to the police. I’m like, “Are we safe?” And everything’s fine. False alarm.
Jim: Well, some listening or watching probably has, they’ve had the real deal where there’s been an intruder.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: So those things do happen. But what you took away from that is?
Jason: Well, our bodies are wired with an internal alarm system that should alert us to danger.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: So that alarm, had somebody truly broken in the house, the alarm would do its job. The problem is- is that when something else trips that alarm. And so what we say is that God created us to have fear, like we should. Okay, so Jim, going back to your example, if I’m walking in the woods and I see a grizzly bear healthy fear deal with it, like run. Well I don’t know if you’re supposed to run from a grizzly or not.
Jim: I think I’ll play dead with a grizzly.
Jason: Pray- Play dead. Okay.
John: Or you’re supposed to get big and- and scream really loud.
Jason: Oh yeah.
Tori: Okay, I think we should figure this out.
Jim: I don’t think so of a grizzly.
Jason: I’m joking.
Jim: That’s a disclaimer for anybody listening.
Jason: Oh, yeah. Or you know, you’re in Florida and you see an alligator then maybe run.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: Right. That’s healthy fear. But what anxiety does is anxiety doesn’t play on reality, it plays on imagination.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Okay. It plays on whatever’s in your mind. So anxiety then says, Hey, I’m walking in the woods, there’s gonna be a grizzly.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: I bet you there’s gonna be a grizzly. And now all of a sudden you’re not walking through the woods anymore. You’re leaving the path because of what anxiety is doing. It’s now imagining that that fear is there.
Jim: Or in worst case scenarios that anxiety has gripped a person so badly, they won’t go to the woods.
Tori: Right.
Jim: Because they’re already projecting or they won’t leave their home.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Right. They won’t go grocery shopping. I mean, that is severe.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: But I do want to pick up on that because I think the spiritual, uh, implication there of what you’re saying is when- when real things happen, uh, you know, whether they’re assumed or actual, like your indicator or your sense are falling on the ground-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You guys didn’t know.
Tori: Right?
Jim: And you’re reacting out of that adrenaline. Or if somebody’s actually an intruder.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Those are normal things where anxiety and fear are pretty understood.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: But the spiritual problem is when you’re projecting-
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … uh, out in the future, your future will be, uh, detrimental or horrific or something like that, speaks specifically to the spiritual connotation of that because that’s crippling-
Jason: Yes.
Jim: … in so many ways.
Jason: Satan wants to do everything he can to keep you off the path that God put you on.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: So he is going to do to you what he did to the disciples when they were in that boat. So here’s the thing. You know, and I know at Focus on the Family, we talked to a lot of God followers. You have Jesus in your life. And if you don’t, I just-
Jim: We talk to them too.
Jason: Yeah. And I- I just ask you to get on your knees and ask Christ come into your heart and have God as your Father, and you’re gonna find that not all things just work themselves out magically. You got some work to do, but God will definitely do something for you. But when we’re talking to God followers, what you need to know is, is Jesus in your boat first?
Jim: Hmm.
Jason: Is He in your life? You know, is He on the path with you? Secondly, is He freaking out right now? And thirdly, who’s really in control? But Satan wants you to not think about any of that. He wants you to focus on what could be in your life. And all of that is ruled by fear, not faith. So what faith does is it projects power into the future because we know who’s on our boat. We know that we’re walking according to what God wants us to do.
I mean, Jesus told the disciples, let’s go to the other side. So they were walking in obedience. Look, if you’re walking in a disobedience, you should be freaking out about some stuff.
Jim: Hmm.
Jason: But the spiritual connotation of this is all Satan is going to use projected fear to keep you off of the path. But you need to know, Jesus is in your boat. And, uh, if He’s not freaking out, you shouldn’t either.
Jim: Mm-hmm. I think it’s important. We’ve kinda laid the groundwork, but the hope there, it’s hard, uh, for people that have chronic anxiety to hear, yeah, just don’t perpetuate that anxiety into the future. It’s easy to say, it’s easy to hear, it’s hard to do for people that have anxiety.
Jason: That’s right.
Jim: Especially for the Christian community, I think you look towards Second Corinthians 12, and the promise God is making us there, which is our only hope.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, when you get down to it, if you have that kind of stifling, crippling anxiety-
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … um, you’ve gotta get it into your heart that you’re okay. Yeah. That the Lord’s gonna take care of you even through death.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: May I say-
Jason: That’s right.
Jim: … that regardless of what happens, and it is quite freeing-
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … to understand that, that not even death has a grip on us. Because we have a life, eternal life with the Lord after this. It’s good to hear, it’s comforting, but do we really believe it?
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, that’s the core thing. So how does Second Corinthians, uh, 12 comfort us? Let me- let me read it. ’cause I don’t want this to be a pop quiz on your … but it starts with, “My grace is sufficient for you. For my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Jason: Man. When I was at the height of my anxiety battle, the Lord brought that scripture home to me to just let me know it’s okay. Like, yeah, you’re in a weak spot right now. And you know, I- I felt like sick, very sick. And we’ll get to share the story here in a little bit of what that all looked like. But when God came in and was like, “You know what, my grace is sufficient. That my strength is made powerful in your weakness.” Like in that moment, I was in such a weak state, and I really did find hope and comfort in that. You know, we’ve talked about this before on- on one of your other podcasts where trust is a choice that you make. And hope is the feeling that follows. You can’t have hope if you don’t first make the choice to trust. It came to a head for me in Vidalia, Georgia. And I remember that town in particular because, you know, it’s the home of the sweetest onion ever made. Vidalia onions or whatever.
Jim: They’re good.
Jason: And my brother and I at this point, I had been speaking professionally for like a decade. Public speaking was not a problem for me. Just before I was to get on stage, about five minutes before all of a sudden I started having hot flashes. Like I started sweating, my head started spinning. I honestly thought that I was gonna pass out. My heart was racing like out of my chest. I had no idea what was going.
Jim: Did you think it might be the flu?
Jason: I did. I- I thought-
Jim: Or something like that?
Jason: … It felt like I was having kind of a miniature stroke or heart attack or something.
Jim: Yeah, right. No, I’m serious. I mean-
Jason: Like I really felt it.
Jim: … you start going, “This isn’t me. What’s happening right here.”
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Yeah. And I’m sitting there and I’m- I’m literally holding onto the table. And I remembered somewhere in- in the confusion of all of this, that- that if you- you feel like you’re having low blood sugar, eat some sugar. And there was a piece of chocolate cheesecake. So I smashed that cheesecake.
Jim: That’s my solution for everything.
Jason: Yeah. (laughing) Well, that didn’t work. And I just started praying. And the only verse that I could think about was the Philippians 4 verse where it says, “Be anxious for nothing, but in everything about prayer and petition with Thanksgiving. Make your requests known to God.” And I’m like, God, I gotta go up here and speak in front of all these people. I can’t pass out. So I was having this fear that I was gonna pass out. And uh, I- I walked up there on stage. And fortunately for me, I’ve … I have a twin brother, and he was speaking with me that day. And … uh, and I brought my glass of ice water up there with me. And I stood on stage and David opened up and I had my glass of ice water, and I started pressing it onto my head.
Jim: Oh.
Jason: And I was-
Jim: Just to get recovery.
Jason: I’ve got … I’m going to pass out. Like either I’m going out voluntarily or involuntarily, like I have got to control myself. And I was taking sips of water and my knees were shaking. And- and it got to my part and I started speaking and it- it started to wane a little bit. It started to calm down. And I felt like the Lord was giving me some reprieve. We were able to get through a 45-minute talk. And I walked off of there and I was wondering, “What in the world did these people think about me drinking this cold water and pressing the glass against my head?” We got done. And David was like, “Man, you look like a ghost up there. What was wrong with you?” And I was like, “I think I’m … I almost had a heart attack or something. I don’t know.” Well, I began to look back at that and I realized that was a … it was a panic attack. It was full on anxiety attack. Now-
Jim: Which you’ve never had before.
Jason: Never had before.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: Never, ever. And I was not nervous to speak in front of people or anything like that. But the very thing that I was called to do, now I was struggling to do. And it- it hurt, it felt like somebody poured boiling lava on my chest while I got dropped 10 stories in an elevator.
Jim: Wow.
Jason: Like a feeling like that. And it was just awful. And it was a cluster mess. That was my first bout with anxiety.
Jim: Yeah. And then Tori pick it up. I mean, you’re like-
Tori: Yeah. I mean, it- it wasn’t the Jason that I knew. Like, it was scary. It’s scary to be someone who has never seen that before. And Jason is always … he’s a very strong leader and I look to him for a lot of security in my life. And he’s always the strong one. I’m usually the one more crippled with fear and anxiety.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tori: And then I’m seeing this happen and it’s a little bit scary at first. You’re like, “Oh, what is gonna happen?” And you can easily start to think to the future, like, how long is this gonna last? What … Are we gonna be okay? Is he gonna be okay? Um, and I remember just going to the Lord, I … one of the things that I’ll never forget in that season was how- how Jason fought. It was … he fought so hard to break free. Um, and I … this is where the book came from, was that fight. The- the book was birthed out of a fight to come free from this. And, um, so I was watching him, he was waking up early in the morning and going out in the sunlight and- and, um, just getting before the Lord and just hands open to the Lord, crying out to him. And I’m watching this and I’m … and I’m fighting with him inside, you know, in- in prayer and asking the Lord, what is my role? What- What do I need to do? How am I gonna help?
Jason: Because those feelings kept coming back.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: I kept … like, for the next like three months, I kept feeling like I’m gonna pass out. I got to a point where I didn’t even wanna drive anymore.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: And I didn’t wanna public speak.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: I didn’t wanna do anything.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: And so she was watching me spiral.
Jim: Let me … This is a really personal question for you, Tori. But I would think you mentioned how much confidence you had-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … in Jason, how much you depended upon him-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … for that stability and being the rock, which allowed you a little bit of sway to, you know, have those emotional feelings. In this season-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … how did you process, uh-oh, my rock is not so solid-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … and how did that impact you personally?
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Did you have more fear? Like, what is happening? And-
Tori: I did.
Jim: … what does this mean for me?
Tori: Yes. Yeah. I think it was- it was a moment for me though, where I knew that I had no other option but to depend on the Lord. Um, thank God that I knew where my strength comes from. And of course, in that moment there were moments of shakiness of like, oh, what is this gonna look like? But it was a place of desperation to where I knew the … I knew where the only place to turn was be to the Lord.
Jim: What’s so good about that and what people need to understand is that that is how the Lord works.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: We think it’s all about Jason.
Tori: Right.
Jim: But what a great re-centering for you too.
Tori: Yeah. It really was. I’m so thankful for that. But yeah, it was definitely a moment where I- I turned to the Lord and I was like, I … I’ve got to support him. I gotta be there for him. He’s … he is really struggling. And so I- I felt like the Lord’s like, get in the fight with him. And so we began researching it together. We began reading everything we could on anxiety and- and, you know, all the symptoms that we could think of. We’re- we’re trying to figure out what is this. And one of the things that- that we quickly learned was that it’s projected powerlessness. And I saw that coming through like every day. There were little things that Jason would say, “What if I can’t go to Trey’s basketball game next week?” What … You know, it was all these-
Jim: It’s crazy.
Tori: … projections of powerlessness.
Jim: So it like built on itself.
Tori: Yes.
Jason: It was awful.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: It was the worst feeling in my life.
Tori: Yeah. And so as I began to see, okay, this what was exactly what was happening. And I began to ask the Lord like, what- what are you saying through this? What do you like … you … We need you to tell us what to do here. And I remember one morning Jason, he looked so frail. He didn’t … he looked like a shell of the man that he was.
Jim: Wow.
Tori: Um, and he was sitting in front of our fireplace, uh, ’cause he was really cold. Like, even like his temperature, everything was off. And he was sitting in front of the fireplace with a blanket. And it was just not … it didn’t even look like Jason. And I- I kind of get a little teary-eyed thinking of it because, um, it was hard to see him like that. And I’m … and I can relate to so many other people out there that you’re- you’re watching your loved one go through this. And it’s sometimes I think it’s almost harder for the person watching it from the outside because it’s not the person that you know.
Jim: Well and it’s scary.
Tori: Yeah. It’s scary.
Jim: Like, What is happening?
Tori: Yes.
Jim: And I have no control.
Tori: Exactly.
Jim: And neither does he.
Tori: Yes. Yeah, exactly. This man that is usually so in control and takes such reign of our home, it- it felt like he was slipping away. And so, um, I … it was just before the Lord, God, what- what is going on? What do you need me to say to him? What are you doing? What- what are you saying? Speak. And I remember very clearly the Lord saying, “You need to let him know that this soon shall pass.”
Jim: Wow.
Tori: Like this is not going to last a long time. You’re gonna be okay. And it’s not gonna be that much longer.
Jim: That takes a bit of courage.
Tori: Yeah. ‘Cause I didn’t know. I’m like, I hope you’re-
Jim: I mean, and you gotta go say this to him.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: In a time when he’s not himself and-
Tori: Right.
Jim: … isn’t feeling that.
Tori: Yeah. And there’s kind of a part of me that’s like, I hope- I hope I heard that- heard that. I hope that was the Lord. I hope that’s just not me. And … but I did. I went to him. I said, “Babe, I just … I really feel like the Lord just said, this is not gonna be much longer. This is … this too shall pass. And you’re almost through it. Don’t let go. You keep fighting. You’re almost through it.”
Jim: Wow. That’s incredible.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: How’d that make you feel?
Jason: She gave me hope.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: I felt … literally, I felt something lift in my spirit. Now I had a lot of work ahead of me, and I wanna tell you guys about it. But that day, I mean, when she offered hope to me like that, I felt like a lightning bolt in my body. You know, and … you know, we were raised Baptists. We’re not like, you know, the prophetic, all that kind of stuff. But I’m telling you, I felt like that was a-
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … prophetic word for me.
Jim: It’s a real deal.
Jason: And, uh, I just felt it in my body. And that it was like the Lord was saying, there’s a finish line to this. And that’s when the Lord began to really do some stuff. And that’s why I- I began taking notes.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Writing everything down I could about anxiety. But lemme just tell you about how bad it got. Those feelings that I had before I was speaking at that place, it happened so bad. I- I passed out once in church, literally just sitting there. Somebody was giving a testimony and they started talking about some- some accident that they had. And I’m not good with talking about bodily fluids, specifically blood. They started talking about that. I literally just passed out right in church. And then now I started having a fear of passing out, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I almost passed out when I was on stage.” I was speaking at Liberty University and uh, I was on stage there and, uh, at one of their, uh-
Jim: Chapels?
Jason: … business class. It wasn’t in the big chapel, but it was at one of their business chapel, uh, classes, almost passed out there. I had to have them bring me a chair. I had to sit on it. Now you’re … remember I had already been speaking for a decade. I’m confident. I’m not scared to speak in front of anybody at any time. I’m not scared to drive. And now I don’t wanna do either of these. But it got to a point where I didn’t even want to travel to Nashville, Tennessee from Charlotte to go see my son’s basketball game. Like there was no, when my family would go out to dinner, I’m like, I, there was, all of my feelings were gone.
Jim: Right.
Jason: It was like, it was burnt, it was charred. I wasn’t mad or angry. I was just done. And for the first time in my life, I understood what depression must feel like.
Jim: Wow.
Jason: And I had, at that point had businesses that ran themselves, investments, happily married, healthy kids, financial freedom, everything that you could want. And yet I felt done. And I just wanna encourage some listeners right now that you feel done. That’s exactly where God wants you, because He’s gonna build you right back up. And I felt, at that moment, if- if- if I continue to feel this way, I would rather not live.
Jim: Hmm. That’s- that’s dangerous ground.
Jason: It’s very dangerous ground. Now I wasn’t, you know, ruminating on suicidal thoughts or anything, but I did feel like I just don’t want to continue to feel this. And it was, at that moment I was in front of the fireplace shell of a man. Tori came up and gave me hope. So that’s why we speak to people who have somebody in your life that’s gotten … give them hope.
Jim: That’s the thing.
Jason: Be patient with them, you know, give them hope.
Jim: Well, this has been a great start. We’re gonna come back next time, keep the discussion going and bring more of that hope and structure and how to think through these things. So if you’re in that spot, I think we’ve laid the groundwork as to what might be occurring in your heart and your soul and in your life. And we want to be here for you. So get in touch with us. Get this great book, Unshakeable: A Proven Plan to Crush Anxiety, Defeat Overwhelm, and Conquer the Fears That Freak You Out. I can think of 10 people that need this just in my life, and I’m sure you’re very similar and it may be you. Get in touch with us.
John: Yeah. Call today. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. 802-32-6459. Let us know you’d like to speak with a counselor. And, uh, we can schedule a time for them to give you a call back and, uh, help you make some healing progress. You can also request Jason and Tori’s book, Unshakeable, make a monthly pledge of any amount today. And we’ll send a copy of that book to you as our way of saying thank you for helping us strengthen and support families around the world. And if you’re not in a spot to make a monthly pledge, we understand that, uh, make a one-time gift, uh, that certainly makes a difference as well.
Jim: And here’s why your financial support is so important. A woman named Annie is a stay-at-home mom, raising three teenagers. She wrote to us and said, “I listen almost daily to your broadcasts. The variety of your shows provides guidance and encouragement to me, as a mom and wife, but also as a Christian. God is really working through this ministry.” And I just love that comment, John.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s what we’re aiming for, to give people hope and help in Christ. And when we work together, marriages are strengthened. Parents are empowered. Pre-born babies are safe through option ultrasound and so much more. So please be generous with your giving to Focus on the Family today.
John: And again, our phone number 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or donate and get the Benham’s book at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And thanks for joining us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Jason and Tori Benham and once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Tori Benham: He was sitting in front of the fireplace with a blanket and it was just not, it didn’t even look like Jason. And I, I kind of get a little teary-eyed thinking of it because, um, it was hard to see him like that. And I’m, and I can relate to so many other people out there that you’re, you’re watching your loved one go through this. And it’s, sometimes I think it’s almost harder for the person watching it from the outside because, um, it’s not the person that you know.
John Fuller: That’s Tori Benham describing the power of anxiety and fear that, uh, we can experience or we can see, uh, in a loved one. Uh, Tori is here with her husband, Jason. They’re back today. And, uh, I’m John Fuller. We’re glad you’ve joined us.
Jim Daly: You know, John, anxiety grips I think just about everybody in some way. It may not be directly you, but a family member, extended family member. It’s just so prevalent in the culture today. And I love the definition that our guest gave it last time. It’s that projection of disaster. It’s not what you’re really living in, but it’s the thought process of if-then. If I’m out there doing that, then something horrible might happen. And that’s what we talked about last time, getting a hold of and really capturing that spiritually so you can be in a healthier place. I think it’s important that God told us through Jesus, fear not. I mean, there, there’s a reason He said fear not. This life has ample opportunity to be fearful. But for us as believers in Christ, we need to take that assurance that God is with us in every circumstance and certainly in those future circumstances that we can’t even comprehend what they might be. And, uh, if you didn’t hear last time, uh, go to the website or get the smartphone app and you can download and have access to everything.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But I would encourage you. I thought it was a great discussion.
John: It was, and it was a combination of scripture and experience and insight. And, uh, all of that is captured in the book that Jason and Tori have written called Unshakeable: A Proven Plan to Crush Anxiety, Defeat Overwhelm, And Conquer The Fears That Freak You Out. Uh, get a copy of the book from us, uh, when you stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Jason and Tori, welcome back. It’s so good to talk with you guys.
Jason Benham: Yes. Great to talk to you, brothers.
Jim: I enjoy it.
Tori: Yeah, we’re so glad to be here.
Jim: I’m so glad you’re here too, Tori. (laughs) ‘Cause you bring that women’s perspective.
Tori: Mm.
Jim: And I know a lot of the listeners and viewers appreciate that. So it’s not just three dudes talking here.
Tori: (laughs).
Jason: Right. Right.
Jim: And this is an interesting topic. It can be a heavy topic. And I appreciate the tenderness we’ve all had with it, but it is about how to unlock somebody from this bondage, really. And, you know, people feel guilty even hearing that. That’s not the intent of that. It’s how do we get you to a better place? That’s the goal. I think deep down, that’s where you wanna be.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, it feels impossible. And we’re gonna hopefully make the impossible possible.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: And you can get to that place. Jason, uh, last time we talked, many stories you guys shared about how it felt. You kind of fell into this anxiety moment, uh, about to give a speech, a talk.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: And y- you’re the third person. I’m sitting here going, “When is that gonna happen to me?”
Jason: Uh-huh.
Jim: I’m hoping not, but you’re the third person that has shared an experience like that. But also in the book, Unshakeable, you shared an analogy. It’s like being in a car-
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … and all the things that are going on in a car, illuminate that for us.
Jason: Right. Well, you know, looking at anxiety as projected powerlessness, you know? It’s projecting fear into the future. You know, first, Tori and I are not PhD type people. We didn’t come at this from a technical angle. I’m just a simple former jock who struggled with anxiety and figured out a way out of it because I dove so deep into it.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: Read everything that you could read on anxiety. And I was thinking, you know, if my kid was struggling with anxiety, how would I describe it to him? And I thought of this analogy of a car. Now, just imagine a car, like a luxury vehicle, but the kind that actually has a driver a chauffeur and, and you’re gonna ride in the back, you know?
Jim: Not a Tesla. (laughs).
Jason: Yeah, not, not that. But your body is the car. Your brain is you. That you’re in the backseat, right? You’re calling all the shots. Your nervous system is the driver.
Jim: Mm.
Jason: Now, there’s the parasympathetic, sympathetic. We don’t have time to go into all of that stuff. But so long as everything is good, you know, your driver, your chauffeur is pressing the gas when it needs to go, pressing the brakes when it needs to stop, and everything is totally fine. But then all of a sudden you pull up to a stop sign and an intruder jumps in named anxiety and gets into the backseat and starts screaming in your ear, you know, “Hey, danger’s ahead. We’re being followed by a black car. They’re coming to take you out.” And what do you do? You yell at the driver, “Floor it. Let’s go. You know, push the gas.” You know, and that’s where all of a sudden your nervous system takes over and your car… Now, just imagine if that anxiety stayed there, kept yelling into your brain, because that’s what anxiety does. It hijacks your brain. Then it distorts your emotions, and then it actually perverts pressure. But next thing you know, you’ve got your driver, your nervous system is flooring it, and that’s, you know, your adrenaline and cortisol is jumping out there and doing all the stuff, and your parasympathetic nervous system is not able to press the brakes and say, “Hey, slow down. Rest, digest.”
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: And so all of that stuff happened. Next thing you know, your body starts to break down.
Jim: And I think the difficulty, again, is for those that are in anxiety, you know, we’re trying to provide you handles to understand-
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … what’s going on. Because again, you, you had to climb out of that.
Jason: I did.
Jim: And thank God you did. And Tori, thank God you were there to give him hope and we talked about that last time.
Jason: Thank you, Tori.
Jim: But, but it feels hopeless.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I don’t want to diminish that, because I know people are watching and listening that are in that spot. They’re not out of it yet.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: They’re maybe at the beginning where you were.
Jason: Mm.
Jim: And so this is really designed just to give you that hope that you need to see things differently. That’s the start, correct?
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Yeah. Absolutely.
Jim: Your dad, uh, was in the book as well. You shared a story about him as a pastor.
Jason: I did.
Jim: And, and he had a desire, a hope, a dream.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But something happened to him when he was young-
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … that continued to, that voice in his head that kept telling him something. What happened there?
Jason: Well, you know, it’s interesting because you’ve got to get to the root of your anxiety. So when you know what it is, which is projected powerlessness, and now all of a sudden you’re experiencing some of those things that are happening in your body and, and your brain, you’re starting to ruminate and all those types of things, you gotta get to the root. Uh, we do have a little small acrostic that really helps, S-T-O-P. Like, how do I get to the root? Well, think of STOP, S-T-O-P. Let’s start with S, sin, self-talk, stress. First, ask God, is there anything in my life that I have let come into my life that shouldn’t be there?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: It might not be the case, but it’s always a good place to start because here’s the thing, Satan has hijacked conviction and calls it anxiety. We have coached people who are struggling with guilt over sin and they’re like, “Well, I’m struggling with anxiety.” I’m like, “Well, no, like you need to repent of something.” You don’t… Sin self-talk, negative self-talk-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … and then stress. But then you’ve got the T, which is trauma, and that’s trauma that could have happened to you emotionally, but it could have happened to you physically. You’ve got the O, which is origin. Maybe you’re somebody that, you know, runs like a sports car or maybe you’re somebody that runs like an RV, a recreational vehicle.
Jim: (laughs) Why are you looking at me when you say that?
Jason: Yeah, well, you know. Or origin in terms of your family, the way, you know, nature, nurture.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: The way that you were raised. And then P would be products, the stuff that you’re putting into your body.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Whether it’s food, whether it’s alcohol, whether it’s caffeine, whether it’s medi- whatever it is. But when I get to the T and I think about trauma, my dad experienced this. When my dad was in junior high school, he had a teacher named Ma McKenna. Now, my dad is 77 years old. He’s spoken all over the world. He’s a preacher, stood on stage and preached. And I remember one time asking him, “Dad, why don’t you have a book?” He said, “I’ll never write a book.” And I’m like, “Why?” He said, “Because of Ma McKenna.” And I was like, “Wait, I don’t under… Well, who is that? ” He’s like, “That was my seventh grade English teacher. And I wrote a paper once and she, she wrote so much red on there that it looked like she bled on it. And at the top, she actually demeaned me in something that she said and then she spoke it to the class. She told the class about it.” And he said, “It was humiliating. And I vowed at that moment that I’d never write.” And he said, “To this day, if I write a sermon or anything like that,” he said, “I’m self-correcting while I’m writing because I still hear Ma McKenna.” And this is six decades later.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: It, that was a traumatic event. Now, Ma McKenna didn’t mean that, but he went through something that was an emotional trauma. And going back to my story of when I almost, I thought I was gonna pass out on stage, that I realized when I went back and I used that acrostic, S-T-O-P, when I was 12 years old, I was in junior high school and I had to go stand on stage in front of all these parents and I had to model these uniforms that our junior high school was going to have parents buy. And I was one of the students that they said, “Hey, wear these clothes, you’re gonna stand on stage and model along with some other students.” Do you know right before I walked on stage, my dad walked up to me and said, “Hey, Jace, listen, here’s the thing. When I was in the military, we used to have to stand in formation for a long time, and the guys who didn’t bend their knees would pass out.”
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: He said, “So just bend your knees a little bit when you’re standing on stage.”
Jim: Catholic weddings. (laughs)
Jason: So then I’m 12 years old. And what do you think that I was thinking at 12 years old when I was standing on stage? Don’t pass out. So I was sitting there bending my knees. Now, fast-forward to 47-year-old Jason, about to stand on stage in Vidalia, Georgia, and something in my subconscious, a trauma that had happened, my dad didn’t intend to traumatize me back then, but it was a traumatic event. And now all of a sudden, anxiety pulls that traumatic event. Now here we are at 47, I was about to walk on stage not as 47-year-old confident Jason, professional speaker, but as 12-year-old Jason freaked out that I’m gonna pass out because of something my dad told me back when I was 12. And I did not realize that. I didn’t even think about that until I went through anxiety and was able to pull up some of that, that root there. And that’s why I say 2 Corinthians 12 is so powerful, that God was saying, “My strength is perfect in your weakness. I’m allowing you to be weak because I’m about to show you how I’m gonna be strong, but you’re gonna have to get to some roots first.”
Jim: Yeah. And that can be scary. That can be, you know, a point of fear.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: Uh, Jason, explain why you believe God uses fear as an invitation. I mean, fear can be confusing.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Fear God, I mean, fear is in the Bible a lot.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: Um, but we’re trying to say, uh, sometimes God will use that to set an environment that draws you to Him.
Jason: That’s exactly right. You cannot be courageous if fear doesn’t first present itself, right? And so that’s why I think in Psalm 23, it says, “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the…” You guys know what comes next?”
Jim: Shadow of death. Yeah.
Jason: Shadow of death. It, it’s not the valley of death.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: Because the reality is always not as bad as the possibility. It’s the shadow of death. What’s bigger, death or death’s shadow? The shadow. You know, if I were to see a wolf, that would be pretty bad. But if I were to shine a flashlight on it and see the wolf’s shadow, that’s monstrous.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: That’s terrifying. The shadow is always worse. And you know, Tori has a story of where she had to face that fear and realize that that is an invitation for you to stand strong and see what God can do when you operate out of faith and not fear.
Tori: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, um, I grew up in a really small town in Torrington, Connecticut, and everyone that I knew, my parents, my grandparents, my aunts and uncles, my best friend’s parents, they all worked together. It was just like a very close-knit community, and that was just what I knew.
Jim: Hmm.
Tori: And so when Jason and I first got married, um, we started having kids right away. That wasn’t the plan, but I got pregnant five months after we got married, and that started, you know, baby number one, two, three, and four, and it kept me busy. And so, um, a few years in, Jason was traveling a lot and he had, you know, started several businesses, and, you know, and there was an angst in my heart. I was home all the time and I felt left out of Jason’s life. And I remember hearing John Gottman, he’s a leading psychologist, um, he said that at the gridlock of every marital conflict are unrealized life dreams. And I remember thinking that it really resonated with me because I had forgotten that I had had a life dream to work with Jason. Like, I thought my life was gonna look like my parents’ life and my grandparents’ life where they just did everything together, and now here’s Jason and all his businesses, he’s got business partners and I’m not the, the business partner. And I remember just feeling that like, that I, I longed for that, that I wanted that. That was a life dream of mine. And, um, shortly into our marriage, Jason has his masters in marriage and family. And so that opened the door to where a lot of couples were coming to us and saying, “Oh, Jason, you, you’re a licensed, you know, marriage counselor. Can we get some marriage counseling?” Well, we’re just a couple years in and we’re like, “Sure, but we have our own issues.”
Jim: (laughs).
Tori: And, um, but what it did is it opened the door for us to do marriage ministry together and, um, slowly but surely we began to do other things. We began to write up, we wrote a book on our marriage and then we, um, started getting asked to speak, and that’s when anxiety entered the picture for me. (laughs) And I had always longed to do more with Jason, but I am not a public speaker. That is not something I ever wanted or asked for. And so when we f- got our first invitation to go and speak, um, I was like, “Oh no, I don’t do that. That’s… You know, I, I wanna do stuff with Jason, but not that.” But we, I did it and it was horrible. Like, I was so anxious. I was so tied up inside. I hated every minute. Um, the, the first time that we did it, I came down with the flu, like, you know, like your body responds to that stress. (laughs).
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: But the Lord continued to kind of open up these invitations for us to come and to go and to speak together and, and so as time went on and the Lord opened more doors, um, I thought I was kind of breaking through it. I was getting some headway and, and we were asked to speak, um, at a marriage conference and we showed-
Jason: Well, that marriage conference was the Focus on the Family marriage conference.
Jim: (laughs).
Tori: That’s right. Yeah.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Here in Colorado.
Jim: Oh, good.
Tori: Yeah. And so we showed up to this event and, um, Dr. Gary Chapman was in the room, and we walked up to him and Jason put his arm around him and he said, “You, you know who this is. This Dr. Gary Chapman. He’s written, you know-”
Jason: The best-selling marriage book of all time.
Jim: I think he’s the most prolific Christian author ever.
Jason: Yes.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: Five Love Languages, et cetera.
Jason: Yes. He’s so incredible.
Tori: Yes. Oh my good- yeah. Like-
Jim: And he’s a good friend. He’s a good-
Tori: He’s a legend.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: And he looked at me and he said, “Oh…” He’s so humble and so sweet.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: And he said, “What are you guys speaking about tonight?” And my heart just went to my feet because I, in that moment I’m like, I felt like such an imposter. Like, who am I to speak in front of Gary, Dr. Gary Chapman? What am I doing?
Jim: (laughs).
Tori: And-
Jim: Well, that’s humble.
Tori: Yeah. It was, I, I just felt like the weight of anxiety, projecting powerless. I can’t do this. I’m not a speaker. This is what Jason does. W- how, how did I get roped into this, you know? (laughs).
Jason: Uh-huh.
Tori: And I excused myself and I went to the bathroom and I sat in the stall and I was just gripped by anxiety. Like, I don’t wanna do this. I don’t wanna be here. And I, and it’s in those moments of desperation that the Lord always speaks to me, and I wish it wasn’t so. I wish that I would be more intent to listen to Him in less intense moments.
Jim: (laughs).
Tori: But in those moments of desperation, I said, “God, help me. I can’t do this. Like, I don’t know what, how I got here (laughs), but here I am and I need your help, Lord.” And I just remember looking at the back of the stall, like just thinking like God was there, like He’s gonna say something, He’s gotta say something, you gotta help me. And I just felt the presence of the Lord come over me-
Jim: Calm.
Tori: … and I felt like He said, “You don’t have to do this. I invited you to do this.” And it was just this calm that came over me when He said-
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: “You don’t have to do this. Like, there’s no pressure here.”
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: “This is, I just invited you to this.” And it was like this just moment for me where I realized that just like I had this longing in my heart-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tori: … to do stuff with Jason, right? I wanted to, I wanted to do more with him. And the Lord was giving this opportunity for us to do more. And the Lord was saying to me, “I wanna do stuff with you too. Like I, I am inviting you into a space with me and I know you can do it. And I just invited you to come, but you don’t have to do it. This is just an invitation.” And everything shifted for me and it wasn’t, I have to do this, I can’t do this, it was the Lord saying to me, “Come. Do you wanna come?” And it ma- it reminded me of Peter, um, in the boat, right, when he wanted Jesus-
Jim: To step out.
Tori: … to step… He’s like, “Invite me to come, right? Like, call me out.” And Jesus says, “Okay, I’ll call you out.” And Jesus says, “Come on.” And then he gets in the water and he’s fine until he thinks about himself. He, he’s, it’s not that he’s not trusting Jesus, it’s that he’s trusting his own ability.
Jim: Mm.
Tori: And he’s like, “I don’t walk on water,” and then he sinks. And it was, I was doing the same thing. I’m like, “I don’t do this. This is not who I am.” (laughs) And I began to sink because I was focused on me. I was focused on my, my limitations and I wasn’t focused on the one who was saying, “Come.”
Jim: Yeah, that is such a wrap of what we’re talking about.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, that, that really, I hadn’t thought about that scripture in that way.
Tori: Mm.
Jim: But yeah, that’s all about anxiety and what am I doing and I’m sinking and-
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Tori: Yes, I’m sinking.
Jim: … the Lord reaches down and pulls Peter up out of the water.
Tori: Yeah. Yes.
Jason: That’s exactly right.
Jim: Yeah. That, that’s like everyday life for all of us-
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … in our own context, whatever that might be.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: Yeah. And you know what I found? In, in moments like what Tori was experiencing, there are three things that you need to do. You need to recognize, renounce, replace. You need to recognize where this thought is coming from.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: You need to recognize what’s happening in the moment, and it comes from Satan. You need to renounce the lie you’re tempted to believe in that moment, and you need to replace it with truth. And you’re… You know what? You’re gonna have to repeat it, and you’re gonna have to repeat it, and you’re gonna have to repeat it, and that will help set you free.
Jim: So I just wanna come back there because, and, and slow down a minute to understand recognize, renounce, and replace.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So recognize, what does that mean?
Jason: Yeah. Recognize what’s going on in the moment of the anxiety, and that you have to recognize the source of it. And when I say the source, it all goes back to Satan. Satan is pulling the alarm on your fear. You are projecting powerlessness into the future, and you need to recognize it happening in the moment, okay?
Jim: Okay.
Jason: So that’s like shining the light on your enemy. All right, now that you shine the light on the enemy, how do you defeat him? Well, first, you have to renounce the lies he’s tempting you to believe in that moment.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: The lie that you’re unsafe, the lie that you need to control everything, the lie that it’s all gonna end in disaster. It’s a lie. It’s just a lie. And then you need to replace it with truth. What does that look like? It looks like replacing worry with worship. In that moment, you listen, anxiety focuses on how. Worship focuses on who. Anxiety is gonna focus on the problem, but worship focuses on the person. So in that moment when Tori was in that, that stall, God got her out of thinking about herself and got her thinking about Him. That’s why we say that fear is an invitation into something greater, but that recognized, renounced, replaced formula is, we, we dive into that in our book and the whole book is about that. And, and we dissect that to help people-
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … and give them practical handles on how to get out of anxiety.
Jim: You know, and I think y- when you look at maturing in Christ, I, I feel we need to say this, not to throw water on that, but the healthiest place you can get to is even if your circumstances-
Jason: There you go.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … are not dictating victory-
Jason: That’s right.
Jim: … that your trust in Christ is there.
Jason: Mm.
Jim: I think God smiles on that soul-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … who can say, “Yeah, hey, you know, don’t, uh, crucify me the same way as the Lord. Turn me upside down.”
Jason: Wow. Wow.
Jim: Which is what Peter said.
Jason: Yep.
Jim: That’s having a grasp of your circumstances. (laughs).
Jason: Yes.
Jim: And then controlling them actually, being victorious in that.
Jason: Mm.
Jim: And I don’t mean that to be overly dramatic, but my goodness, talk about managing your fear-
Jason: Yes.
Jim: … and saying, “Hey, I know what’s coming. I know death is gonna come eventually for me.”
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “But I’m gonna be submitted concretely in Christ because that’s where everything comes from.”
Tori: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Jim: “That’s where life comes from.”
Jason: That’s so funny you say that, because I literally thought that very thought in the middle of my anxiety and I thought, “Well, what’s the worst that could happen?” And I thought, “Well, I could die.” And then my brain went into, well, what happens if I die? To be absent from the body is to be present with… I would be with the Lord. And you know who I thought of? I thought of John the Baptist. And we think about John the Baptist lost his head in prison. He literally had his head cut off. But I think about that, the few seconds just before his head was cut off, he’s John the Baptist in a prison cell. A couple seconds later, he’s John the Baptist giving God the Father a high five and hugging him up and God’s like, “I got you here earlier than you thought, but isn’t this great?”
Jim: (laughs) Right.
Jason: No, it’s like, okay, so I, it is kind of like where you can-
Jim: Yeah, I get it.
Jason: … catastrophize it on purpose.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: Go to the worst thing that can happen and be okay with that, and then let’s start working backwards.
Jim: But, you know, even in that example, it’s fascinating that, that John sitting in prison said, go to Jesus-
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … and ask Him, “Are you the one?”
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Mm.
Jason: He was offended.
Jim: “‘Cause if you’re the one, why am I in prison?”
Tori: Mm.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, that was really the extraction of that.
Jason: That’s right.
Jim: And am I missing it? Did I, did I not have it right?
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, that was some of the self-doubt that he had.
Jason: That’s right.
Jim: And then, and then the word came back to him. No, you’re in the right place and just trust the Lord and, you know-
Jason: And it’s so cool, the heroes of our faith, we can identify with them. John the Baptist, you know that he might have been a little offended, but just think about Jesus in the garden. When He sweat drops of blood, go and look that up, that’s an anxiety ep- episode in that moment.
Jim: Mm.
Jason: And it shows you that Jesus died with no sin. So he didn’t give in to anxiety. He didn’t give into that, but He was experiencing pressure to a point that I think only other one other account in human history is where they’ve separate- you know, you sweat drops of blood, I don’t know, d- don’t quote me on that, but where Jesus actually faced down anxiety and made it through.
Jim: Mm.
Jason: Like, He really did it. Our own savior experienced some of those same feelings that we have-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … the gut burning sensations and all that kind of stuff, but He made it through. And if He can make it through, we can make it through.
Jim: Yeah. And that’s, that is the whole point. You know, the last thought here is a child.
Jason: Mm.
Jim: There is something about a child that is so simple, you know, they trust they’re gonna have a meal, they trust they’re gonna put their head down and get a good night’s sleep. And Jesus Himself said, you know, “Don’t hinder children coming to me, because the kingdom of God is like these children.”
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So I’m just sitting here thinking, while you’re yoked up with the Lord in this life, to have that conversation with Him.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: That’s what he’s looking for.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, just to look at Him and say, “Lord, man, this is easier. Thank you for this.”
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “How, how, why is this easier?”
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: And, and just let your heart hear from Him-
Jason: Yes.
Jim: … through the Holy Spirit, the Word of God.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: And those are the promises that He gives you.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Have that childlike heart-
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … to trust that He is there, to trust that He is.
Jason: Do you know that’s… I, I love that you brought that up, because when Tori and I did our interview with you guys on our book, Beauty and Battle, our marriage book, I had just gotten past this anxiety stuff and I hadn’t written an anxiety book or anything. And you know, while I was doing makeup down with your makeup lady down there, um-
Jim: (laughs).
Jason: … I started to feel an episode coming on and my knee started to shake. This is right before I was coming on with you guys. So if you go back and watch that episode of Beauty and Battle, I was suffering some anxiety-
Jim: Right there.
Jason: … while I was talking with you guys.
Jim: Wow.
John: Mm.
Jason: And my knee was shaking, but you know, I held onto what God reminded me of when I was sitting in her chair. Hey, you get to do this. You get to do, you get to be on Focus on the Family. There’s no organization that has helped the family more worldwide than Focus on the Family, and I should be thankful for that. And I was thanking the Lord.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Halfway through our pl- our talk, I was great.
Jim: Well-
Jason: This is fantastic.
John: Yeah.
Jim: We’re thankful you said yes several times-
Jason: Yeah (laughs).
Jim: And to have both of you here, Tori, it’s great to have you here.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s just been a delight to remind everybody of what it means to rest, to be at peace with the Lord, to take that yoke up with Him and not try to carry this on our own. If you’re in that spot, could you get ahold of us? We’re here for that. Nothing’s gonna embarrass you. Uh, we’ve been at this 48, 49 years now.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, we’ve heard a lot of input from listeners in the past. We’ve put that all in databases. We have resources for just about every, uh, situation you’re gonna face in your life. Let us be there to minister to you. It’s a privilege for us to do that and for the donors who support Focus to be able to make that happen. When I’m meeting with the donors, having a meal with somebody that has helped us, they are in.
Tori: Mm.
Jim: They’re saying, “This is what we want you to be doing.” I love it. My job is to run Focus effectively and efficiently so you can do ministry through it with your finances and your prayers.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I’ll make that commitment and, uh, we just need you to step up and support us as well. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being connected to the ministry and providing those counselors to do those calls and helping people get to a better place with Christ.
John: Yeah. Uh, pray with us and for us, and we so appreciate that. And as you can, donate generously today and, uh, we’ll send that book Unshakeable to you. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And, uh, we’ve got details about connecting with our counselors, donating and getting this book and other resources to help all on our website, FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: And let me encourage you to make a monthly commitment to Focus. Jean and I support Focus that way. I know you and Dena do as well, John.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Thank you, by the way.
John: Oh, it’s a privilege.
Jim: I haven’t sent you a note lately.
John: I, I, I believe in this ministry.
Jim: (laughs) But let me tell you why. Here’s the payback. Here’s the report on the investor investment. Uh, we got a note from a gentleman named Andy, and he said, “Even as a Christian, I struggled with resentment, insecurity, and shame.” Those are all things that can lead to anxiety. “The Lord uses Focus on the Family’s podcast as one of his tools to bring me out of those pits.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “Thanks to you, and all of your guests who have been willing to share their brokenness and point people like me back to Christ. Humility is a precious commodity. Keep shining it.” And you guys have done a beautiful job of that. I mean, that’s written right to you-
John: Mm.
Jim: … to be able to come on, talk about your lives, that brokenness, but where God healed. And, uh, you know, thank you for doing that on behalf of Andy.
Tori: Aww.
Jim: Appreciate it.
Jason: Thanks, John. Thanks for having us.
John: Well, once again, you can donate to help encourage and support more families at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast or when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And coming up tomorrow, some practical advice for moms and dads about kids and sports.
Brian Smith: It really does start with us as parents just taking a deep breath.
Jim: Yeah.
Brian: It’s just a game.
Jim: Yeah.
Brian: A game that they can play and enjoy and we can sit back as their parents and enjoy the stage of life and watch them play and not put so pressure on them to be what we hope they can be at 16 while they’re six years old.
