Melanie Shankle: In our minds, we don’t want them to face lions and bears-
Jim Daly: Correct.
Melanie: … because it’s hard to watch them.
Jim: Right.
Melanie: You know, we just want it to be so easy. But when we look at our own lives, we’re like, “Wasn’t it our lions and bears that built our faith and trust in God?” And so why are they gonna be any different?
John Fuller: Well, coming of age and today’s world brings a whole new set of challenges. And today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, you’ll hear one young adult’s perspective on the pressures facing teens and young adults, and how to trust God for your future. Thanks for joining us, I’m John Fuller.
Jim: Well, along with that one perspective is her mother-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … who’s been on the broadcast before, so I’m looking forward to this dynamic. We’ve done this a couple of times now, and, uh, it’s great to see the 20-somethings rising and, uh, coming in and doing the interviews with us.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: This is great. But, uh, so often for young people, I mean, bullying is a hot-button issue for so many parents, and it’s really distressing for all of us if your kids are in that position. Thankfully, for Jean and I, Trent and Troy really didn’t face anything like that. Um, we were grateful for the school they were in, for the education they received, and for the environment they had. It was pretty powerful.
John: Yeah.
Jim: But according to national surveys, bullying affects about 20% of kids ages 12 to 18, 20%. That’s a big-
John: A significant amount.
Jim: … number.
John: Yeah.
Jim: And then in addition to that, uh, cyber bullying is experienced by almost 60% of children. And that’s, uh, you know, out of control, I would say. And that’s not the only pressure that our young people are facing. Almost 40% of young people report always feeling, always feeling uncertain about the future, anxious about important decisions, and afraid to fail. That’s all Barna research, and that’s amazing. Let’s think of 1 Peter 5:7, which instructs us to “Cast our cares upon the Lord for He cares for you.” Isn’t that awesome? And, uh, what a great reminder for all of us. So, I’m looking forward to this discussion.
John: Yeah, and Caroline Shankle is a new author and a recent grad of Texas A&M, where she’s doing her masters. Uh, she’s just 22, and we’re so glad to have her here. She shares from her own perspective and, uh, experiences. And Jim, as you indicated, Caroline’s mom is here, Melanie Shankle, and she’s been with us before. She’s a bestselling author and co-host of a very popular podcast, The Big Boo Cast.
Jim: (laughs).
John: And, uh, Caroline’s book, The Lion and the Bear: A 100-Day Devotional for Facing Your Giants, really serves as the basis for our conversation today. Find out more about Caroline Shankle and her mom, Melanie, at our website.
Jim: Welcome to both of you. Good to have you on Focus on the Family.
Caroline Shankle: Hello. Thank you for having us.
Melanie: Yeah. We’re excited to be here.
Jim: Now, this is like, uh, the fruit not falling far from the tree, right?
Melanie: Yes.
Jim: Mom author, now daughter author.
Melanie: Yes.
Jim: Did she inspire you? I’m giving you a softball here (laughs).
Caroline: Yes, she definitely did inspire me. She did.
Jim: It’s not that every family has writers. It’s kind of a hard thing to, to write a book. It’s not easy.
Caroline: (laughs).
Jim: So did you see that mountain and go, “I could do this. If mom can do it, I could do it.”
Caroline: You know, honestly, I don’t, I don’t know if that’s really … I think it kind of came from … I remember when I was younger, people used to always ask, like, “Oh, are you gonna follow in your mom’s footsteps? Are you gonna do this?”
Jim: Oh wow.
Caroline: And I was like, “No, I’m not gonna do that. I have a science brain. I’m gonna go be a veterinarian or do something else.” That was kind of always my mentality. And then God, you know, just kind of worked, and there was just a lot of different things that happened and all of a sudden, I started looking and being like, “Oh …”
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: Well, I think she was the one who told me, she looked at something I’d written for my roommate, uh, for her birthday. And she was like, “My condolences, but you’re a writer.” Like I hate to say it.
Jim: Oh, wow (laughs).
Caroline: Those were her exact words. Yeah.
Jim: Forget that vet thing (laughs).
Caroline: Um, and-
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: … then yeah, I kinda, I feel like that was kind of once someone actually called that out on, in me and was like, “Hey, you can do this.”
Jim: That’s so cool. That’s good.
Caroline: And that’s kind of where it came from.
Jim: Yeah, that’s so good.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, again, it’s a, it’s quite an achievement to write a book.
Caroline: (laughs).
Jim: The Lion and the Bear.
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: This is a true story. The other night, my boys and I, we were talking about who would win in a fight, a lion or a bear.
Melanie: (laughs).
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, it’s so bizarre and here your title is.
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: How’d you come up with your title?
Caroline: So, my title actually came from … It started my … I started hearing this my sophomore year of high school when I was going through some hard times in bullying and I was dealing with a lot of struggles. And one time I was sitting at the dining room table with my parents because, you know, we always would debrief and talk about all the things. And my dad started saying when something hard would happen, he’d always look at me and he would say, “The lion and the bear.” And basically, what it meant was he was talking about the story of David and Goliath-
Jim: ah.
Caroline: And just how God sent David the lion and the bear before he faced his Goliath.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: And my dad was just like, “All these trials and all these struggles you are going through are preparing you for something greater.” You know? And I think that’s where I looked at it, and it was the perspective of when I was facing hard times of this is my line and this is my bear to prepare me to fight the giant later on.
Jim: Well, it’s great context-
Caroline: Yes. Yes.
Jim: … for how to attack life.
Caroline: And so-
Jim: Getting to that, so many people think of your high school years or junior high years as perhaps (laughs) the best years of your life.
Caroline: (laughs). Mm-hmm.
Jim: I’m not sure that I ever met that person, but high school can be, you know, can be buoyant.
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: It’s a good time.
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: It can be fun, but there does seem to be a lot of pressure. Something that doesn’t seem to change is the attacks of young people on other young people, you know? For boys, it tends to be physical, you know?
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But paint that picture and what were you experiencing in high school?
Caroline: I think there was a lot of … With girls being younger, and even now I still see it, there’s a lot of different politics and dynamics of how you need to perform or what you need to say or how you should react to a certain situation. And when you’re in friend groups that are maybe, where it’s an unhealthy dynamic and you don’t react the way a girl wants you to react, or you don’t lean into the drama or you don’t lean in, there becomes almost this thing of people wanna try to alienate you. I feel like a lot of what I experienced was I would be in a friend group, there was a girl that maybe we had issues where we didn’t get along super well, and the goal was c- how can I cut this girl out? You know?
Jim: Ah.
Caroline: That was, it was a lot of like, how can I exclude this girl from going to this or how can I do that? That was some big things that I feel like I experienced.
And it was really tough, especially with phones and stuff because instead of just hearing about it in the hallways or maybe never knowing about it, you usually have your friends’ locations. So, you’re looking on a Friday night and seeing all your friends hang out without you.
Jim: Ah.
Caroline: Or you’re seeing them post on Instagram that they’re all at the movies or at this restaurant and you’re not there. And so, I think it was a lot of these kind of trying to make, to make you feel isolated-
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: … and make you feel alone a little bit. And I think it’s a lot of trying to appeal to certain emotional dynamics. And with drama, it was just this thing of they were, they were looking for a fight. You know, they’d try to say something, and they’d want you to say something mean back.
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: Or they’d want you to fight back. And trying to, it was always hard trying to combat that with kind of logic and reasoning. Like I think my dad was always just kind of like, “Try to take your emotion out of it and look at it factually, and just try to explain it to them logically on how, what’s going on, what this means.” And I think that it was not received well by a lot of girls. I think those dynamics are really hard.
Jim: You know what, what’s tough hearing that is, and I mean this in, in kind of a cultural way-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … the formation of that.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, it sets you up to be a herd mentality person.
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: You gotta go with the herd. That’s really dangerous for culture-
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: … dangerous for Christians.
Caroline: Absolutely.
Jim: Where we’re training one another to be part of the in-crowd.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And-
Caroline: Go with the flow.
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: Don’t keep your head down, please people, that’s kind of the-
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: And it’s like, that’s dangerous.
Jim: Yeah, because I think on the bigger issues of Christian ethos, that puts you at a, in a weird spot if you’re gonna say, “Hey, you know, I’m not gonna have sex before I’m married.”
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “I’m gonna do all I can to prevent that from happening.”
Caroline: Right.
Jim: And then you’re ostracized for that.
Caroline: Right.
Jim: But I mean, in all that context, Melanie as a parent, what do we do?
Melanie: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, it sounds like your husband’s done a, and I’m sure you as well-
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … just a good job, and I’ll come back to you in a minute-
Melanie: Yes.
Jim: … about those inoculations that work and maybe things that don’t work. But Melanie, wh-
Melanie: Yeah. I mean, I think the big thing is, is when you know your child is going through a hard time or you’re starting to see these friend dynamics, I mean, number one, we always paid really close attention to who is she hanging out with because I think so much at that age, your identity is so wrapped up and who your friends are-
Jim: Ah. Totally.
Melanie: … and what they’re doing. And so, you know, we always tried to keep an eye on who, you know, who is her group, who’s she spending time with, what kind of girls do these seem like? And I think it’s what startles you is because what started off, I was like, “These are girls that I’ve had in our home, that we’ve spent time with.”
Jim: Yeah.
Melanie: “I’ve curled their hair before the homecoming dance.”
Jim: (laughs).
Melanie: Like, how did this turn? So, but then I think when you start to see that, I think number one, you have to take an honest look at your child. I think that’s one thing as a parent where you’re like, “What’s your role in this? Like, how could you be better? Are there ways that you can manage it better?” Um, and then when you start to realize, no, we are taking the high road, we really are trying to handle this, then at that point, I think you have to figure out, and this is where Perry, my husband, and I really had to figure out what was the best way for her personality to handle it because-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Oh, that’s interesting.
Melanie: … I tend to be such a people pleaser. So, I kept saying, “Just kill him with kindness. Just keep taking the high road. It’s gonna be fine.” Um, and that was okay for a while, but at some point, it was like, it’s not getting any better. So, I think you have to pay attention to how your child needs to handle something and what their strengths are.
Jim: And so, what did Perry say? I’m interested (laughs).
Melanie: So, Perry said-
Jim: Lay the hammer down. Yeah.
Caroline: That’s basically he, I remember it was, it had been like three consecutive months of these girls being mean to me and just there was no end in sight, you know? And I just, I didn’t know what to do at this point. I’m like, “I’m doing what all the adults are telling me to do. I’m trying to be kind, and I’m trying to just keep my head down and ignore them,” and yet they were … I mean, girls were finding me in bathrooms and cornering me and bullying me and saying mean stuff to me.
Jim: Oh my goodness.
Caroline: I mean, it just was like, and I was-
Jim: That’s terrible.
Caroline: It was rough. And I was like, “I’m being kind. I’m not trying to … I’m not saying anything mean to you. I’m not talking about you. I’ve blocked you on my phone. I don’t know what else to do.” And finally, I was looking, I was talking to my dad about it, and he finally just looks at me, and he just goes in his super calm way, not actually.
Jim: (laughs).
Caroline: … but he was like, “This means war.”
Jim: (laughs).
Caroline: And like for me that was almost a light bulb that went off-
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: … because I realized me trying to keep my head down and just please all these people and avoid confrontation is not true to who I am and who God wired me to be. Um, and I realized it’s okay to advocate for yourself and it’s okay to show people that you’re not going to tolerate, you know, that you, being cornered in the bathroom-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: … and called terrible things, you know? And I think there’s a respectful way to do it, of course. But I finally just, the next day, I think, I literally went up to one of the girls, you know, when we were in that bathroom and she came in, like she always does ’cause she followed me in there and I was just like, “Hey, you can’t treat me this way. I don’t know what’s going on, but this is not okay and I’m not okay with this. And if you keep doing this, I’m getting the school involved. Like I’m gonna have to get the school involved.”
Jim: Hmm.
Caroline: “And this isn’t gonna end well for you.” I was like, “Cyberbullying’s become technically illegal, and I have records that you in fact did that.” I’m like, “You could get expelled or suspended for this, and you need to know that before this goes any further.” You know? And it was just advocating in a way.
Jim: How was that response?
Caroline: I think she thought I was bluffing.
Jim: Oh, okay. Oh.
Caroline: And I wasn’t and, you know, and I think that was like kind of, it was a little bit of a, well, I don’t know. I mean, maybe. But then I really did, I had to get the school involved-
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: … which I think was really hard for me ’cause it almost-
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: From a pride thing, it almost was like, “Am I a snitch? Like did I, did I lose, you know? Is this not …” But I was like, this is beyond just-
Jim: Yeah, I mean, boundaries are healthy.
Caroline: … kids arguing, like this is a healthy boundary that I need to have. And after that, I mean, we really were … Like after that, that she really did leave me alone. Like it finally got to the point to where I was like, okay, now that I advocated for myself and I told her, like, I’m not gonna tolerate this-
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: … and I will take measures in order to make sure this doesn’t happen, I learned like it’s okay to advocate and be strong, and do it in a respectful way-
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: … in a way that honors God-
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: … and not calling anyone names or anything, but you can still do it.
Jim: Right. No, that’s-
Caroline: And I think that was kind of-
Jim: I think Jesus did it with the Pharisees.
Melanie: Yeah.
Caroline: Yes.
Melanie: Absolutely.
Caroline: Absolutely.
John: Well, and who knows how many other people she was bullying.
Caroline: Exactly.
John: So, you probably helped shut down-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
John: … uh, some systemic bullying.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim, and our guests today are Caroline Shankle and her mom, Melanie. And we’re so glad to have them here as we talk about Caroline’s book, The Lion and the Bear: A 100-Day Guide for Facing Your Giants. And while this is directed towards younger adults, it really is an appropriate book for pretty much anybody that wants to do well in the world without giving into the world. So, learn more at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Caroline, let me ask you another thing we didn’t mention in the open there-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … this, especially again in that female relationship-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … context, comparison.
Caroline: Oh.
Jim: Guys have this too, but for us it’s more athletic, I think, you know?
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But speak to that. And you encountered a, a young lady who was bullying you, and you started looking a little more deeply. What happened with her?
Caroline: I think the thing with comparison too, this is where I first started realizing, or it’s where kind of my whole thing with comparison kind of I started thinking more about it or thinking deeply. For me, it was first in college when I was, uh, going into an, being an animal science major and going into the ag school. And I did not grow up in the ag world necessarily and everyone I was with did.
Jim: In Texas (laughs).
Caroline: And so … In Texas at Texas A&M, of course.
Jim: Yes.
Caroline: And so, they were going into it knowing all of this stuff and they had all these scholarships and all these different things. And I remember I was talking to my professor and I was like, “I don’t know what to do. Like she’s doing this and she’s doing this.” And he just kind of looked at me and he was like, “Hey, comparison is the thief of joy.” And I was like, “Oh.” And it was just a light bulb for me almost of this like, I’ve been so busy comparing myself to others, I’m forgetting my own assets and what I have-
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: … and the joy that I have and how God created me. And I think it’s something that’s so common with girls, but it’s this, I feel like there’s so much comparison in either in looks and in accomplishments. And even, I faced it even in sports, like with soccer and stuff. I mean, we were all vying for scholarships, we were all vying for college coaches’ attention and we weren’t working as a team. We were trying to just be the best individual we could be, and it usually caused us to lose games because of it, you know?
Jim: Hmm.
Caroline: Um, but I remember there was one girl specifically where it was just a lot of, she was a friend, but it was a lot of comments about just maybe the way I would look or something I would do. And it just made me feel a little insecure or … And I was like, “This doesn’t feel kind.” And then one day we were at her home, and her mother did it to her in front of me.
Jim: Ah.
Caroline: And all of a sudden, I was just like, “This is where this comes from.”
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: You know?
Jim: The root.
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: Um, and I think that was something super important, and it also kind of goes back into advocating and when I was dealing with my other mean girl stuff in high school is there’s a reason they’re treating you the way that they are, and there’s a reason they’ve learned that. And that’s super important to remember because we always say, “We’re not even that good with Jesus.”
Jim: (laughs).
Caroline: Now imagine without-
Jim: That’s a fair statement.
Caroline: You know?
Melanie: Yeah.
Caroline: And so, it’s like you realizing you’re dealing with people who are really hurting and really struggling, and you have to have a level of empathy and a level of compassion and care for them while you advocate. And-
Jim: That’s really good.
Caroline: … that was kind of my eyes open to that when I saw what she was dealing with at home and I was like, “Oh, there’s a reason she feels the need to do this to me.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: “You know, there’s something going on in her heart and there’s hurt there-”
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: “… that she’s passing on to others because she’s been having to struggle with it.”
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: And so, I think that was super important to remember.
Jim: You know, another strangulation-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and I use that word very specifically because it’s dramatic-
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: … it’s perfectionism and anxiety.
Caroline: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Jim: And you write about that in the book as well.
Caroline: Absolutely.
Jim: These are great topics for young people.
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Melanie: That area of perfectionism, I think so many Christians fall into that. Like, you know-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … we’re trying to live up to the standard of Jesus.
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Well, guess what?
Melanie: Yeah.
Jim: He was perfect.
Caroline: Mm-hmm. Right.
Jim: We’re not gonna get there, but we’re striving to be better-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … as we progress through life to be the better person, more like Jesus every day.
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: Some days we’ll do well, some days we’ll do poorly.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But speak to that idea of perfectionism and how did you wrestle that to the ground-
Caroline: Yeah.
Jim: … to say, “Okay, I don’t have to be perfect.”
Caroline: That was something I really struggled with in high school, especially in sports. For me, it definitely came out in soccer the most is I remember there were games where … I remember there’s one specifically, it was my sophomore year when I was going through all my mean girl stuff, but I had made the varsity team and I was one of the smallest, youngest players on the team and we were playing our rival, and my coach kind of came up to me and he was like, “It’s on you tonight.” Like he put a ton of pressure on me.
Jim: (laughs). Put the whole team on you. Oof.
Caroline: And I panicked. Like I was so scared of messing up that basically I got on the field and I just shut down. Like-
Jim: Ah.
Caroline: … I barely played, you know, and people were like, “It was so low effort. It was so this.” And I’m like, “It wasn’t low effort. I was just scared. Like I didn’t wanna mess up and I was so anxious.”
And I finally just, I started coming to the conclusion and it was a quote and I wish I had it down and knew it immediately, but it was, uh, Teddy Roosevelt and it was, uh, The Man in the Arena.
Jim: Yeah, that’s a great quote.
Caroline: It’s the quote, which is my favorite.
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: And I live by it. Like I have it in my room. But I finally started just realizing I’m not going to be perfect and I’m going to make mistakes, and I would much rather go all out and do the best I can and mess up than be too scared not to do it.
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: And I was always worried about people judging me or people making fun of me. And it just was that, you know, it says in the quote like, “Those cold, timid souls that will never know victory nor defeat.” And it’s like, I would so much rather try than not know either.
Jim: Right.
Caroline: You know? And who are they to sit back and judge me for doing, giving it my all and being the best I can be?
Jim: Yeah. That’s so good. Yeah. They’re too timid to get into-
Melanie: Yeah.
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: … the arena, but they’re very vocal about-
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: … coaching the arena.
Caroline: And so, it was kind of working through that. And it was also just thing, of just knowing it’s okay to mess up sometimes, you know, like that’s how you learn.
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: I feel like I’ve learned more through shanking a soccer ball all the way over there-
Jim: (laughs).
Caroline: … than I did when I scored a goal, you know?
Jim: That’s so true.
Caroline: And I think that that was just an important thing for me to have to work through and overcome and be comfortable with rejection, be comfortable with failure, be comfortable with like-
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: … you have to become comfortable with that in order to get better, you know?
Jim: Well, again, these are great themes, perfectionism, anxiety, comparison, all the things we’re talking about.
Caroline: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jim: Melanie, you ring the bell for the parents here because you’re saying, “Be careful not to reinforce these things.”
Melanie: Yeah.
Jim: And you, uh, gave a couple of examples where you might say, “Well, you play better than that guy.”
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “I wonder why you’re not first string.”
Melanie: Yeah.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, that is a great thing, particularly for dads to think about.
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And then you had an example with daughters, “Well, you’re prettier than her, why would they say that about you?”
Melanie: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, even those little subtle things that we can say that-
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … reinforce comparison and anxiety-
Caroline: Yes.
Melanie: Yup.
Jim: … how, how do we mind our own tongue as parents in this environment?
Melanie: Yeah. I mean, I think you have to really encourage your child. I mean, one of the things we learned and one of the conversations we had after one of those soccer games where we had watched her and we were like, “What’s going on?” And she kind of, you know, through talking to her, she was like, “But I’m afraid I’m gonna mess up.” And what we said to her was like, “We would rather you fail spectacularly.”
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Melanie: Like, “We would rather you go out in a blaze of glory and screw up than to play so timid that you’re not being true to yourself.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Melanie: And I think that’s true with life. And these kids, this generation, uh, my friends and I that are raising kids the same age, marvel because we’re like, “Where did this come from, all this pressure to get it right the first time and that everything has to be?” We didn’t seem to have that. And I, I don’t know if it’s a social media thing, if it’s just-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Melanie: … because there is so much comparison where you can see people your age and what they’re doing all the time and, but it’s like we’ve got to let our kids know, “Hey, you need to try and you’re not gonna get it right. I didn’t get it right the first time, you’re not gonna get it right the first time.” And that’s okay. Like-
Jim: I agree. I think the challenge for some parents watching and listening would be that, you know, where’s that bottom?
Melanie: Yeah.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: To be fair.
Melanie: Yeah. Uh-huh.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And you think, you know, this is true. You don’t have to be perfect.
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You just need, your heart needs to be in the right place-
Melanie: Yeah.
Jim: … and keep trying.
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But there are gonna be some parents that their kids are falling below that, that line.
Melanie: For sure. And-
Jim: And you’re going, “Can you try a little bit?”
Melanie: Yeah (laughs).
Jim: I mean, I didn’t mean to go that far down.
Melanie: Yeah.
Jim: Speak to that when you were beginning to get anxious as parents-
Melanie: Yeah.
Jim: … because they’re falling below a performance that is healthy.
Melanie: That’s, and I think that is the line is you, that’s where you have to know your child and know, “I know you can do better than this. I know that you have more in this.” ‘Cause what we always said with her is, “We never expect you to be perfect. We do expect your best effort.”
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Melanie: Like, it doesn’t have to be 100% perfection, or you don’t have to achieve everything, but we need to see you working to the best of your ability-
Jim: Yeah.
Melanie: … and what that is, and kind of keeping an eye on where you know your kids can be better. And I think there are times as a parent, I think that we wanna just be cheerleaders all the time and just be like, “You’re amazing, you’re the best, you’re great.” But then there’s times to be a coach and to be really honest and say, “Here are some ways that I see you failing and not thriving, and here are some ways you need to do better.” Whether that’s, “I don’t like this group of friends that you’re hanging out with, I don’t like your study habits and the way you’re letting your grades fall.” It’s okay to have those honest conversations.
Jim: Yeah, and I think, I think too, Jean did this really well, my wife, um, you know, she, in elementary school, noticed Trent was kind of hanging with the rough crowd in the-
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Jim: In the playground, the rock throwers.
Melanie: (laughs). Yeah. That’s right. The rock throwers.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And she was like … And she happened to be volunteering in the playground.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So, she was observing this. So, she asked a couple of, uh, other parents that they’d like to do Bible study together-
Melanie: Yeah.
Jim: … with the kids. And, you know, to her credit, really, those kids are now 25.
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But they’ve grown up together, they’re in each other’s weddings now.
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, they’re best of friends, that little Bible study group that came out of the (laughs) rock throwing behavior on the playground.
Melanie: Yeah.
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: But it’s just being aware and how do we create-
Melanie: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It could be that subtle.
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s more difficult as, you know, children get into their teens to try to control that environment.
Melanie: It is.
Jim: Um, Caroline, let me end with you. You’ve heard the do’s and don’ts, but let me ask you, as the recipient-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … of Melanie’s parenting-
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: … and your dad’s-
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: What are, what are the, the do’s and don’ts? There are things that work-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … for young people, things that may not work. If I can give you that quick rap sheet.
Caroline: Yeah. I think the first thing, and this is one I always say that was so great for me in high school, was just the way I felt so unconditionally loved. Like-
Jim: Mm.
Caroline: And that was, it was very important. And at the time, I don’t know if I … I mean, in high school, you’re not necessarily thinking about all this and being so appreciative, ’cause you, sometimes you don’t know what you have, but knowing that after a hard day, I could come home and I knew for a fact that there would be a home cooked meal for me. I knew for a fact that if I stained my favorite pants, that she’d be able to get that out, you know?
Jim: (laughs).
Caroline: That like there’s just little things where it’s like there was such a confidence in knowing like my parents were gonna be there and they were going to be caring for me. And I think that’s so important.
And some encouragement I would also say to parents is there were times where at high school, I always had to have like this mask on, and I had to pretend like everything’s okay. And the moment I got home, I knew I was safe and that mask-
Jim: Ah.
Caroline: … kind of came off a little bit, you know?
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: And I was just a little bit, I was, I was a moody teenager. And I think so often that’s the side parents see because their kids feel safer with them than they do at school maybe, if that makes-
Jim: Yeah, yeah.
Caroline: … is this making sense to you, all of that?
Jim: Yeah, totally, yeah.
Caroline: But I think there’s a level of encouragement of know that what you’re doing is working and don’t be discouraged if that happens because I, like now in college, I come back and I’m so grateful for everything my parents did.
And I think too also, just the way that y’all … I’m losing my train of thought.
Jim: Now you sound that, that Texas A&M girl.
Caroline: I know. I’m like, “The A&M is coming out.”
Jim: All y’all.
Caroline: All y’all. Let me tell y’all.
Jim: (laughs).
Melanie: (laughs).
Caroline: Um, and I think too, the way you always knew when to critique and when to parent and when to also build up and encourage.
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: ‘Cause I’ve seen so much with my friends where their parents will just nag and nag and nag-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Caroline: And tell them to do this and tell them to do that. And it’s out of love, but there’s also needs to be a balance of being a cheerleader and building up and knowing that your parents want what’s best for you.
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: And so, I think like the fact that they, y’all were able to do that for me, and I always knew, “Okay, they’re telling me this, but I know that they love and care about me still.”
Jim: Yeah.
Caroline: “This is just something I need to work on.”
Jim: It’s almost that old adage you have to fill that cup up-
Caroline: Yes.
Jim: … so that when we as parents-
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … extract a little bit in terms of performance-
Caroline: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that you’re taking out of your abundance of knowing you’re loved, et cetera.
Caroline: Yes. Absolutely.
Jim: That’s a good reminder for parents, particularly.
Caroline: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jim: Make sure your children know that they’re loved.
Melanie: Yes.
Jim: And-
Melanie: You’ve got to build the relationship because to me, if you just focus on the rules without the relationship-
Jim: Yeah.
Melanie: … I think it can create this resistance, you know?
Caroline: Mm-hmm.
Melanie: But I think when they know, like, “Hey, I’m telling you no because I genuinely love you and care for you and this is not a good decision.”
Caroline: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Melanie: You know, it just, it come, they may still not like the no-
Jim: Yeah.
Melanie: … but it comes with a little more understanding-
Caroline: Yeah.
Melanie: … of that you really do have their best interest at heart.
Jim: Well, so very good. If you’re that parent going, “Wow, I need to apply this,” get in touch with us, we’ll make it easy. I mean, this is great content. Not only that, I think you could see the benefits (laughs) of what Perry and Melanie have done and Caroline, you just, you show it so well. I’m proud of you really-
Caroline: Thank you.
Jim: … as a 22-year-old.
Caroline: Yes, sir (laughs).
Jim: Um, not to throw your age out there for the whole world, but-
Melanie: (laughs)
Caroline: How dare you? No, it’s fine (laughs).
Jim: No, but, uh, you know, you just, yeah, you’re, you would be every parent’s dream in terms of how you’re handling yourself-
Caroline: Thank you.
Jim: … and well done. Way to absorb all that and to learn from it, to write a book-
Caroline: (laughs).
Jim: … The Lion and the Bear: A 100-Day Guide for Facing Your Giants. Why don’t you just, uh, get in touch with us, make a gift of $10 and we’ll send you the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. And you get a great resource, as John said in the beginning, not just for your, uh, teens or 20-somethings, but for anybody in your life, including yourself that might struggle with boundaries.
John: Yeah. This is a great devotional book. And as you said, Jim, it’s not just for kids. Uh, my wife, Dena, and I had three daughters. They’re now young adults. I kind of wish we would have had this resource, uh, to help them stay rooted in their identity in Christ during those tumultuous pivotal years.
You know, we have so many resources here for you at Focus on the Family, from our amazing team of caring Christian counselors to resources like Caroline’s book. Uh, if you’d like to talk with somebody about where you’re at as a family, if something we said today has really touched you and you’re feeling a need to grow through that, uh, but you’re not sure who to turn to, please know our donor community makes it possible for us to give you a call back and have a counselor, uh, listen to you, speak with you, and pray with you.
Uh, get in touch with one of our counselors or donate and get a copy of this wonderful book from Caroline, The Lion and the Bear. Uh, our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or you’ll find us on our website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
And next time, uh, plan to join us to hear a miraculous story. Sarah Zagorski survived an abortion and became a very strong pro-life advocate.
Sarah Zagorski: So, I had to go through a lot of healing and recovery from that time in my life. Um, but my, my Christian foster care parents, later adoptive parents, provided that support. There were times as a teenager I was suicidal. I mean, it wasn’t pretty, you know? But it was Christ throughout it and them alongside me.
John: Well, on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
