Preview:
Tondra Gregory: After the dust settles, you know, and you, the romantic fairy tale is over, sometimes when that happens, a lot of couples lose sight of that bigger picture. Right? And so it’s not just enough to say I do, but you have to say I still do.
End of Preview
John Fuller: That’s Tondra Gregory, and she’s, uh, here with her husband George on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: You know, John, marriage is such a unique institution. You know, it’s created by God.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But it’s so funny that he draws opposites typically together. I mean-
John: (Laughs). It seems to be his plan.
Jim: People always say, “What’s the question you want to ask God when you get there?” You know, “Why do people suffer?” I think I’m gonna say, “Why did you have opposites attract?” (Laughs).
John: (Laughs).
Jim: And I think that it is humorous, but I think the reason is, is to work off our rough edges.
You know, Jean and I, the thing we work on still is how not to trigger each other verbally.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, we know each other’s buttons, and we have made that quiet commitment to hold our tongue so that we don’t, eh, do that little jab thing to each other. That’s maturing in Christ.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So you’re not agitating your wife. Which makes no sense to me, actually, when you think about it. For some reason, I love to do that.
John: (Laughs).
Jim: But, uh, you know, the Lord’s kind of going, “How’d that work for you?”
John: Yeah.
Jim: It doesn’t work. You know, and partly because the scripture’s calling us to lay our lives down to sacrifice for each other, and in doing that, you become more like Christ.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Which I think is the whole goal of marriage.
John: Yeah. Yeah. I heard, uh, Charles Stanley years ago say, “What can we do together?” And I’ve kinda adopted that for my marriage with Dena, where we have moments like that, Jim.
Jim: Yeah. (Laughs). You’re so honest.
John: And it is the better part of valor to step back and not continue the triggers. We want healthy, happier marriages here at Focus, and that’s what the show’s about today.
After 30 years of marriage, George and Tondra Gregory, our, um, experienced experts, let’s say, in helping others build strong relationships. Uh, they’re the official chaplains for the Los Angeles Chargers and previously served as marriage ministry leaders at Saddleback Church. Uh, together, they’ve written a great book that forms the foundation for our conversation today, The Marriage Game Plan: Developing a Winning Strategy for Marital Success. And you can learn more about the Gregorys and this excellent resource at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Welcome to both of you. Glad to have you on Focus on the Family.
Tondra: Thank you for having us.
George Gregory: Excited to be here.
Jim: Now I’m gonna look the other way about the Chargers thing…
Tondra: Oh, okay.
Jim: Because I’m a Broncos fan.
Tondra: Mm.
George: Sure, sure.
Jim: But you know, I’ll bite my lip here.
Tondra: (Laughs).
Jim: No, I love, I love football. And it is just so much fun to watch these guys hone that skill and be there.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But what’s interesting in any sporting environment with professional athletes, I think the divorce rate is quite high.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Have you seen that? I mean, in terms of their ability to do everything, to be at the top of their game, to manage a home and…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Uh, be engaged. What have you observed in the sports arena?
George: Yeah. You know, there is a high divorce rate. Uh, I mean, we know a lot of successful couples.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And we know a lot of great godly successful couples…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … uh, in the NFL. But, you know, when you’re in the spotlight, whether you do good or bad, you know, that puts a lot of pressure on spouses and to, to live before the spotlight sometimes, uh, it creates, uh, certain problems. Maybe it’s, it’s conflicts. Maybe it’s, you know, not being on the same page, or maybe it’s just, you know, when your, when your mess-ups are exposed to the world, you know, that puts a, a, an enormous amount of pressure. But we like to tell people, or at at least show people how to get a game plan. That’s why we like to work with professional athletes because they know the language of a game plan. And so it’s really simple, uh, you know, to talk to athletes, I think.
Jim: And interestingly enough, I mean, that discipline that gets them into that high level of competition, boy, to turn that on in your marriage and in your family, it’s a big challenge. But, B, if you can do that, you’re in a great success spot.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Sure. We had one of our, our athletes who asked, he said, “Would you marry me?” It was like two weeks before his wedding. And I said, “I can’t.” And he said, “Uh, why can’t you?” And I said, “‘Cause I have to take you through premarital counseling.” And, uh, so he, he asked a question, “What’s the least amount of pre-marriage counseling that I could do before you would marry me?”
Tondra: (Laughs).
Jim: (Laughs).
George: And to your point, I said, “How did you get to be an elite athlete in the NFL?” And he took a step back and, ’cause they like to talk about themselves.
Jim: Sure.
George: He talked about all the coaches and the nutritionists and the dieticians and, you know, the positional coach. And I said, “Great. So why would you want an average marriage when you want an elite career?” And he got it. He got it. He said, “Sign me up.” And I, I’m happy to say today that he completed those premarital classes…
Tondra: (Laughs).
George: … and, uh, and they’re well on their way to have a successful marriage.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: You know, our childhoods play such a role, and we’ve done many broadcasts and, and podcasts on that.
George: Yeah.
Jim: You know, just our family of origin…
George: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: … is really important in shaping our views and attitudes and probably many of the things you’re gonna have to work on in your marriage in the future. (Laughs) Right?
George: Indeed.
Jim: Just those attitudes we bring into it. Um, you know, let me start with you, Tondra. Uh, childhood, what was that like for you? What were the things that you had as obstacles growing up?
Tondra: Yes. Um, so I grew up with a single mom and my dad was not in the picture, so I never had the opportunity to see how a husband and wife interact, because my mom never married. And so, one of the obstacles that that brought in is because I was just raised with, you know, not a high level of trust. Like my mom…
Jim: Of course.
Tondra: … instilled a lot of, um…
Jim: Yeah.
Tondra: … protect yourself when it comes to men. And ’cause a lot of, you know, she’s been let down and hurt by, um, the men that were supposed to protect her, and that were supposed to be there for her. So you can imagine going into our marriage, I’m like half, not even in, I’m just standing back waiting to be let down. Right? Because one of the beliefs that I grew up with was, it’s not if your husband is gonna let you down, but it’s when…
George: Hm.
Tondra: … he lets you down. You need to be ready. So I’m, I’m like sitting in my marriage, like analyzing it, just waiting for the moment where I say, “Okay, this is it. This is over.” So instead of actually participating in my marriage.
So that background, your family of origin, really has a huge impact on your present. It doesn’t have to, if you can understand where it’s coming from and you know what the Biblical, uh, model for marriage is, then it can, you know, help you understand and move past that and move beyond. And that’s why this book was, uh, just, uh, coming from our heart because we didn’t have a game plan. We didn’t know how all of these background things and how we grew up and the differences and how that’s still a part of you until you deal with it.
George: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. And, uh, you know, it’s, I guess it’s expected when you’re coming up in that situation. Very similar to me, actually.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: My dad was an alcoholic.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Divorced my mom when I was five.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: So you and I share a lot of that childhood, uh, trauma.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: Of just not, you know, having security…
Tondra: Right.
Jim: … and all those things.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And it does create challenges for you as you date, get married, et cetera, and try to create commitment.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And thankfully becoming Christians as we did…
Tondra: Yes. Yeah.
Jim: … we were able to hopefully learn of those good things.
Now, George, your story, you’re going to be my kid’s story potentially.
Tondra: (Laughs).
George: (Laughs).
Jim: And I say that, I say that because you grew up in a Christian home. Your dad was a pastor.
George: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But you still had your wild time, you know, like college was your wild time. And I’m not wishing that for my boys at all. I hope they’re not.
George: Sure.
Jim: They’re in their early 20s now and they’re doing well, but it’s not untypical of kids coming from Christian homes to kind of go a little sideways.
George: Sure.
Jim: It’s wonderful that you’ve made it back to a commitment to Christ.
George: (Laughs).
Tondra: (Laughs).
Jim: I mean, that’s great.
George: Yes.
Jim: So your parents did do that good job, even though you probably caused them some sleepless nights. Just describe that valley for a while and where you were at and then how you guys met in college.
George: Yeah, man. Um, I was a good actor, I would say. I wasn’t trying to pretend it was just who I was. And I knew all the church songs, I knew all the sayings, and, um, I could give you a high-five, but as soon as we went in our private areas, I was, I would let my guard down and I would, you know, in all respects, become human again. And my dad never forced it on me. We, we had to go to church, meaning if you wanted to go out on Saturday, you had to go to church on Sunday. (Laughs). But, you know, he let me have a relationship with Christ in my own way. And so when I got to college, it just kind of exploded, though. (Laughs).
Jim: Let me, let me ask you about that, because so many Christian families experience this and that, you know, it’s good to kind of sit here for a moment. Even if we’re not intending to, we as Christian parents tend to control our kids’ environment.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, we put the filters on. All good things.
George: Sure.
Jim: And we, you know, we address issues that we feel are dangerous to them. We try to make sure they’re not outta control, that they’re…
George: Sure.
Jim: You know, so we clamp down and they live through that situation. And so many Christian kids, when they go off to Christian school, to secular school, it’s cut loose time.
George: Sure. Yeah.
Jim: And, and, and it does show a little bit of the fact that we as parents did not equip them to kind of be responsible for those decisions. So that distinction.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, my dad used to say, “You can take a horse to, to water, but you can’t make him drink.”
Jim: Right.
George: You know, he also used to say that, that God has no grandkids, that means that one day I had to accept Christ as my Lord and Savior.
Jim: For you.
George: For, for me.
Jim: Yeah.
George: And I just thought, I’ve got time.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Right? Who, who doesn’t think they have time on their side?
Jim: Especially at 20.
George: Absolutely.
Tondra: (Laughs).
Jim: You’ll never die.
George: Yeah. (Laughs).
Tondra: (Laughs).
George: That’s right.
Jim: (Laughs). You don’t even think about it.
George: Immortal. Right?
Jim: Yeah.
George: And, um, and yet life really, uh, for college, although I could do anything and I could go anywhere, it really led me down a rabbit hole of depression and…
Jim: Hm.
George: … kind of asking what else is there in life, you know, besides partying and drinking and things of that nature. And so I had a real moment where God came into my life. And, you know, a lot of people say, can we defend our faith? And there’s sometimes, you know, I, I, although I wanna defend my faith, I will say that Jesus came and rocked my world so much, I know that he is real because of how he came into my life.
Jim: You know, for parents, and again, this is a marriage program. We’re talking about, uh, your book, The Marriage Game Plan. But for parents that have that child right now, they’re terribly worried.
George: Sure.
Jim: You know, we, we thought we did all the right things.
George: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What word of hope do you give them? (Laughs).
George: Yeah.
Jim: Because you, you’re a child of hope.
George: Sure.
Jim: You kind of went the prodigal way.
George: Yeah.
Jim: But came back.
George: Yeah. Interesting that you say the prodigal, because, um, I went through a very dark period of, I… Well, let me, let me say it like this. I was, uh, working at American Express for s- summer school, 12:30 A.M. to 8:30 A.M. And I would sit between these African American ladies and they would quote the Bible, and I would quote it right back. And they, they constantly asked me, “If you know the Bible so much, why won’t you give your life to Christ?”
Jim: Wow.
George: They, they knew what kinda life I was in.
Jim: Man, what a challenge. (Laughs).
George: And I was also, before I got to work, I would get past a bridge, and I would hear the voice of the Lord say, “If the sky cracked right now and I came back and a trumpet sounded, don’t you know you and all your friends would go to hell? (Laughs). Because you won’t open your mouth.” Right?
So, fast-forward, I go to the club, I get extremely drunk, intoxicated, and my friends push me in my, in my boarding room. And Jesus was in my room. And I felt that presence of God. Even in a drunken state, I felt the presence of God. And I, and I remember saying the sinner’s prayer. I woke up on my knees the next morning in the same position, but I knew life had changed.
Jim: Hm.
George: So I call my dad, who was on his way up to see me, and I told him I had something exciting to tell him. As soon as I got in the car with him, I told him I gave Christ my life. And he burst out in tears. And I thought, “Aren’t you supposed to be happy for me?” And he says, “Son, you don’t understand. For 365 days, this is the 365th day I’ve been praying that you would come to yourself like a prodigal son.”
Jim: Yeah.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Wow.
George: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: Yeah.
George: And that just, it, it just lets me know that no matter who you are as a parent out there today, you have hope because we have the power of prayer.
Jim: Yeah.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And we can’t control our kids, but we can cover them, we can bathe them in prayer. So don’t give up on your kids. My dad didn’t give up on me, and God worked a miracle in my life.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Well, what’s so important about that is the foundation of faith in Christ.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, we can help save a marriage, help parents do a better job.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But if they don’t make that commitment, we’ve missed…
George: That’s right.
Jim: … the whole goal.
George: That’s right.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: ‘Cause that will really cement you in your journey.
Tondra: Yes.
George: Sure.
Jim: In, in both of those things. Right?
Tondra: Exactly.
Jim: Your marriage and your parenting.
George: Sure.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: Um, let’s move to the meeting. You guys went to college together.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How did you guys end up saying I do.
Tondra: (Laughs). Um, well, as freshmen, uh, we noticed that we were in all of the same classes. (Laughs). Our first class was Biology 101.
Jim: (Laughs). That’s always a good start.
Tondra: (Laughs).
George: (Laughs).
Jim: We’re not gonna make any jokes about that. (Laughs).
Tondra: I know.
George: Ba-dum-dum.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: Yes.
Tondra: So, so that was, uh, (laughs) interesting.
Jim: Sure.
Tondra: Biology 101. And so George, you know, he’s just a very charismatic person, so he always makes this joke. He was like, “Hey, did you go and sign up for all of my classes? You just had to see me every day?”
George: (Laughs).
Tondra: “You, you wanted to show up in all of my classes?” (Laughs).
Jim: Of course, we men think that that’s happening because they love us so much.
Tondra: Yes.
George: Of course. (Laughs).
Jim: It’s not accidental. (Laughs).
Tondra: He thought he was so great. I had to see him all day long. (Laughs).
Jim: Did you say, “Yes, that’s so true?” (Laughs).
Tondra: I was like, “No, I did not. I didn’t.”
George: She didn’t.
Tondra: I have, I did not sign up for these classes. They put me in these classes.
Jim: Well, that’s-
Tondra: You are not all that, you know? (Laughs).
Jim: That’s so funny. Yeah. Yeah.
George: And so, over the course of a few years in college, man…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … we, we tried to do the, the girl and boy typical thing.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And just couldn’t connect, right?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And, and in, in a worldly sense.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: So, so I led Tondra to the Lord, by the way.
Tondra: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: Oh.
George: Uh, as soon as I got saved, I, I, uh…
Tondra: Yeah.
George: I invited-
Tondra: Because we were friends, you know, we developed a friendship. And so, um, George called me one day. And now we know the lifestyle we were both living. I didn’t grow up in a Christian home, so I didn’t even have that to contend with. But, um, he calls me on the phone and he says, “Hey, I got something really important to share with you. Can you meet me when you get off work?” And I was like… Well, I knew, ’cause we were trying to hook up, but we could never get our timing right. So I just thought it was one of those, “Let’s see if we can get our timing right.” So I wasn’t going to respond because I was going through my own kind of depression. And so when he, um… I, I wasn’t gonna go see him, but when I got off work, I heard a voice say, “No, you have to go see George.”
So I went, he shared the Gospel with me, um, which was right on time, because I was looking for direction in life. And it was just a powerful moment. I just remember the scripture, ’cause he was like, um, “I gave my life to the Lord, and why won’t you do the same?” And I was like, “I will one day when I’m really old, you know, like 40.” (Laughs).
Jim: (Laughs).
Tondra: After I fin- finish, you know, living my life, I settle down at 40 years old, I will. And he took me to a scripture in Luke and it said, “What does it profit a man that gained a whole world and lose his soul?” This is the first time I comprehended the scripture.
George: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: Like, it jumped off of the Bible. He made me read it. That’s another thing. He didn’t read it for me. He said, “Read this.” And it jumped into my heart. And it, it just nagged at me for two weeks. And I finally got on my knees. I read it, he gave me a book too. And I got on my knees and I prayed that prayer at the end of the book.
And I, I got into bed and I was like, “Oh my, I’m so, I’m so lost. God didn’t even hear me.”
George: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: I prayed that prayer, nothing happened, ’cause anyway, when I, I looked at church people, I was like, “Oh, they’re gonna run around and I gotta scream Hallelujah.” You know? (Laughs).
George: (Laughs).
Tondra: And I didn’t do that, so I thought the Lord didn’t hear me. Uh, but the next morning when I woke up, I knew I had been changed.
George: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: And I knew He had heard me.
Jim: Uh, that’s evidence of the Holy Spirit.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Sure.
Jim: In your heart.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: That changed life, right?
Tondra: Yes. Exactly.
Jim: That’s the core thing.
Okay. Steering into marriage. I’m, I’m a little anxious about you sharing this story ’cause it cuts close to my (laughs)…
George: Yeah.
Jim: … My own.
George: (Laughs).
Jim: But you guys, you know, understanding what God has done here, created man…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … in his image. And then, hm, you’re kind of lonely, man.
Tondra: Yes. (Laughs).
Jim: So, creating woman to be his companion, helper…
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: … Et cetera. You guys had to work that out. And you have a story of, of parking your car in the driveway.
Tondra: (Laughs).
George: Oh yeah.
Tondra: Yes. (Laughs).
Jim: This is where the pain begins.
George: Oh yeah. (Laughs).
Jim: I’m shaking already.
Tondra: Yes. (Laughs).
Jim: But go ahead. What’s your story…
George: Yeah.
Jim: … on not listening to your helpmate?
George: Well, um…
Jim: (Laughs).
George: … you know, I had this bad habit, uh, guys of just really thinking that I knew it all.
Tondra: (Laughs).
George: That I didn’t need the helper that God gave me. And so I pulled up in the driveway and we were both in the car.
Tondra: It was pouring raining.
Jim: And it was your car, right?
Tondra: Uh, my car.
Jim: Yeah.
Tondra: Yeah, my car was last in, so it was in the driveway. And it was pouring raining too.
George: Yeah. So she said, “Why don’t you pull all the way into the, the garage, so if you have to go back out later, you won’t, you won’t hit my car?” And I said, “Babe, I got it. I, I, I won’t do that.”
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And, uh, lo and behold, I came out. I think we were arguing.
Tondra: We were, we were.
George: Which we don’t, we don’t call our arguments…
Tondra: We, we like to say we were having…
George: … fights, we call them…
Tondra: … intense fellowship.
George: … intense fellowship.
Tondra: (Laughs).
Jim: (Laughs).
George: Intense fellowship. (Laughs).
Jim: Disagreement, I call it.
Tondra: Yeah. (Laughs).
Jim: Intense disagreement.
George: So we had a toss-up that day.
Tondra: Yes.
George: And, um, and so I kind of just said, “I, Hey, I need to go out and get some air.” And, uh, Lord and behold, I backed the car up and-
Jim: Outta, your car out of the garage.
George: My car outta the garage, and I side-swiped my wife’s car.
Jim: Oh.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Boy. Yeah, pride goes before the fall.
George: Yeah.
Tondra: And, and the thing…
George: (Laughs).
Tondra: … the funny thing is, I was in the car with you at that time, and, and you were, and you were like, “What is that?” You know, he, he was like, “What is that?” I was like, “That’s my car that I asked you…”
Jim: Ooh.
Tondra: “… did you want me to pull it into the garage?” (Laughs).
Jim: Did you honestly say it that calmly?
Tondra: I did, yeah.
Jim: And that’s beautifully delivered.
George: No, she-
Jim: (Laughs).
Tondra: I said in, in a very sarcastic that way.
George: She, she did not say it that-
Tondra: Of course. (Laughs).
Jim: That is so good.
George: I wish she, I wish she would’ve said it that calmly, but…
Tondra: (Laughs).
George: Just immediately I could, I knew that I was gonna get the I-told-you-so.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And so I just went, as I recall it-
Tondra: Yes.
George: Now maybe you recall something different.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: (Laughs).
George: I went real humble and said, “My babe, would you forgive me?”
Tondra: Oh no! (Laughs).
George: I said something like that. (Laughs).
Tondra: No, you pull in and you act like it was my fault that I left my car. (Laughs).
George: I did. And that, that was really an expensive mistake.
Jim: Oh.
Tondra: Yes, it was.
George: So the moral of the story is…
Tondra: (Laughs).
George: … is when your wife reminds you of something, you know, probably take heed to it.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
George: Because if you have to, you know, say sorry later (laughs)…
Tondra: (Laughs).
George: … at least you could say you listen.
Jim: Yeah, it’s so true. My, my car incident was Jean had hit something…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and she had a banged-up bumper.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And of course she went through that, “You know, you might drive a little more carefully.”
Tondra: (Laughs).
Jim: Blah, blah, blah. I mean, it’s a week later, I’m in our driveway, the Focus staff, we hosted a dinner and so, you know, the staff were, they were up helping us with this dinner and their van was parked next. I was, “Goodbye, see you guys later.”
Tondra: (Laughs).
Jim: I’m pulling out in the driveway.
George: Okay.
Jim: Bang.
George: Oh.
Jim: I hit my wife’s car.
Tondra: Oh my Gosh. (Laughs).
Jim: Same thing. Big old dent in the bumper.
Tondra: Yeah. (Laughs).
Jim: And she came out and said, “You know, if you just would drive more carefully…”
Tondra: (Laughs).
George: Sure. Sure.
Jim: (Laughs). But I was, I am with you on this one.
Tondra: Yes.
George: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: God has a way of humiliating us in a good way.
George: Well-
Tondra: Humbling.
George: Humbling.
Tondra: Humbling. Yeah. (Laughs).
Jim: There you go.
George: Right. That’s right.
Jim: But in that context, no, seriously, that, that is so much a marriage…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … is knowing you don’t have all the answers, where you started this.
Tondra: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
George: Sure.
Jim: That you’re the guy, but there is a tenderness that comes with relying on your spouse’s input and your spouse relying on yours and finding that way to do it without the I-told-you-sos.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: And all those sayings.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, that’s where you live in a good place in your marriage, right?
Tondra: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
George: Sure.
Tondra: I, I, uh, when George and I, um, were first married, I asked him, I said, ’cause he used to feel like every time I try to help or give you advice or share something with you, it feels like you’re opposing me. It feels like you’re not on my side. And I was just like, “Well, tell me, what do I bring to your life? What do I bring to this marriage?” And he said, if you know George, he was like, “Let me go think about that and I’ll get back with you.” (Laughs).
Jim: (Laughs). That was comforting.
Tondra: I know, right.
George: Yeah, that was-
Tondra: But I knew he would-
George: That was not the right answer, guys. Trust me.
Jim: (Laughs).
Tondra: But I did know him enough that he would go and he would ponder and he would come back and-
George: I did the work.
Tondra: You did the work. And he came back and he was able to connect what I brought to his life. And the reason why that question was important is because if you don’t know what that person brings to your life, if you don’t know how they complete you, if you don’t know how they fill in your gaps, you will feel like they’re against you, that they’re not on your team, that they are, are not for you. Right? And so it turned the tide of our relationship.
George: Sure.
Tondra: Because it began us looking as partnership because he stopped rejecting that and stopped feeling like it was opposition and started leaning into what I had to share because there was a, I had a perspective that he didn’t have.
George: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: God made me different and it just made us more well-rounded together…
Jim: Yeah.
Tondra: … when we influence each other.
George: Sure.
Jim: And, uh, what’s tough with that is those perspectives, they seem like they have sharp edges.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And again, the goal is how do you get down to where you round off those edges…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … for one another so that the advice is taken…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … it’s heard, it’s prayed for.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We, we, let’s agree on this.
George: Sure.
Jim: That kind of thing. You, and this will be a good place to end and I’d like to go another day…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and talk more about The Marriage Game Plan. But I like this story ’cause I think it captures what you were just saying. You, you related it to a game that you were attending with the Chargers.
Tondra: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jim: I think with the Pittsburgh Steelers.
Tondra: Oh yeah. (Laughs).
Jim: And they were significantly down, 23-7.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: Which I was probably happy for…
Tondra: (Laughs).
Jim: … in the AFC West, for the Broncos to go up a notch. But anyway.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: That aside.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: But they’re down 23-7.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Maybe at halftime. I don’t remember the story.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And this relationship, uh, what I’m, uh, what you just said, it’s like marriage, like a wife that feels like…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … we’re down at halftime.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: You know, the score is really lopsided.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I don’t think we’re gonna win this game.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: Meaning their marriage.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: But you saw something there in that game and the Lord spoke to you about it. What was it?
Tondra: Yeah, yeah. Um, definitely, uh, just I had given up hope. (Laughs). I was looking at the circumstances and the circumstances were defeat. And I just succumbed to that, this is not, we’re not gonna win. This is defeat. But, and then George, you can jump in, ’cause I wasn’t in the locker room, but when the team came back out on the field after halftime, they came back and they won that game. And it just really showed like the resiliency and how mindset and what you focus on can really determine, you know, how you work and how your effort is. Right? Which can instill, as long as you have hope, God gives us hope. He gives us a resilient mindset to not give up. As long as you have Him and He’s on your team, uh, it’s, you’re never defeated. You’re never out of the game.
George: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: Uh, so I don’t know if you wanna share.
George: Yeah. I, I, I remember Coach Lynn, he said, uh, “I don’t know what we have to do, but we’ve gotta get a different game plan.”
Jim: Hm.
George: That’s what he said.
Jim: At halftime?
George: At halftime. The resiliency came because he said, “I refuse to let us go back out and do the same thing. We need a new game plan.”
Jim: What a great spiritual application, though.
Tondra: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, when, when you’re not applying the word of God.
George: That’s right.
Jim: When you’re not reading the word of God.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: When you’re not praying with your wife.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: When you’re not going to church regularly.
Tondra: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: I mean, these are things that are gonna zap your game plan. Right?
Tondra: Right. Yeah.
Jim: And you may not even have a game plan even worse.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And then the results are there.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Right.
Jim: It’s 23-7.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: At halftime.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: You’re going, “Okay, we’re not putting any scores up here.”
Tondra: (Laughs).
Jim: “We gotta change the game plan.”
George: Sure.
Tondra: Yeah.
George: Sure.
Jim: Let’s come back next time.
George: Sure.
Jim: Talk about how to change that game plan.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: And this is a great start. You’re such a delightful couple.
Tondra: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Jim: Thanks for being so open and honest about your faux pas. (Laughs).
George: (Laughs).
Tondra: (Laughs). Yes. Yes.
Jim: And even, you know, even that honesty about where you were at…
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … in college and before. And, you know, so many young people are living there.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So you’re connecting.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we have a lot of listeners in the 20- 30-something space.
Tondra: Oh, that’s good.
George: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So they know your story, ’cause they may be right there right now.
And for you, our listener, this is why Focus on the Family exists. We want to help your marriage be the best it can be and we have some great tools for you to get there.
John: Right. Including our free marriage assessment. Over a million people have taken this.
Jim: Yeah.
John: It’s gonna help you discover where your relationship is thriving and where maybe you could put in a little extra effort or, uh…
Jim: (Laughs).
John: … apply a little extra care maybe.
Jim: That was kind of gentle.
John: (Laughs). We’ve added some brand-new content to that marriage assessment, so stop by and take it. Even if you’ve taken it before, it’s a perfect time to kind of check in and get the refreshed version.
Jim: Yeah. And we also have George and Tondra’s fantastic book, The Marriage Game Plan: Developing a Winning Strategy for Marital Success. And you’ll find clear, practical strategies to overcome challenges and build a relationship that lasts. Before we give details on how to get that, I do wanna let you know we could really use your help right now. Let me share with you a note we received from Tim. He wrote: “I just wanted to send a note of thanks to Focus on the Family for saving my marriage.” And let me just insert here. You helped us do that. “Uh, through your ministry, I was able to save my marriage from divorce. I listened to broadcasts, purchased books, and continue to research ways to improve our marriage. I now put my wife, Sue, first, after God, of course. And it has made all the difference. I am forever thankful.”
Man, that says it all. That is our mission. Tim and Sue are just one of the 530,000 couples who have built stronger marriages with the help of Focus on the Family in the past 12 months.
But we can’t do it without you. You’re in this together. We’re locked arm, arm. Uh, we’re powered by people like you, faithful listeners who believe in what we do to help couples stay together and have thriving marriages. Won’t you, uh, partner with us financially today? A gift of any amount can make a huge impact. And we’ll send you a copy of the Gregorys’ outstanding book as our way of saying thank you for being involved.
John: Mm-hmm. Step up and contribute as you can, get your copy of The Marriage Game Plan and, uh, take that marriage assessment. All the details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or call 800, the Letter A and the word Family.
On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we continue the conversation with George and Tondra Gregory and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
**********
Part 2:
Preview:
George Gregory: But I think, in the Word of God, it just gives us the hope. In fact, uh, we, we like to say, for our marriage, that we are pictures of God’s grace.
John Fuller: That’s good.
George: Like, God’s grace, in your marriage, we should see God’s grace by not because we’re perfect, but because we’re still in this ring together, we’re still fighting. We’re still not fighting each other, but we’re trying to fight for our marriage. We wanna fight for our love, we wanna fight for our, our kids’ legacy-
John: Yeah.
George: … we wanna fight for all those things, and…
End of Preview
John: Well, that’s George Gregory, and he’s with us today on Focus On The Family with Jim Daly, along with his wife Tondra. We’ll be talking marriage. And uh, thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: You know, John, if people missed last time, you need to download the app or go to the website and, and listen to the program. It was fun.
You know, we’re talking about their book, The Marriage Game Plan, but we talked about life, you know, what it was like to grow up in the ’20s and fall away from the Lord, or not even know the Lord at all, and, uh, then coming back. And it’s a good story, especially for parents who may have a prodigal child.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And just the hope that George gave us, being raised as a pastor’s son, and then, having his dark days in college, but then, his dad praying for him for 365 straight days-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and then, getting that phone call from George saying, “Dad, I’ve accepted Christ,” that’s what we all want to hear as parents when we have a son or daughter who isn’t walking with the Lord. And then, Tondra’s story is simply about being raised by a single-parent mom. I could relate to that-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and not having a real spiritual foundation and just trying to do life as best as we can without a lot of healthy biblical instruction. So, we connected on that. And then, today we’re gonna pick up their Marriage Game Plan book and talk about what you do to create a marriage game plan.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I’m, I’m sure, with that application, it’s not just for pre-married or newly married, but I’m sure people that have been married 10 years, 20 years, if you’re kind of looking for the compass, we’ve got it for you today.
John: Yeah, George and Tondra have really built this book around, uh, their life experiences and their work with football teams, notably the, uh, Los Angeles Chargers. Uh, they served previously as marriage ministry leaders at Saddleback Church.
And, uh, if you’d like to learn more about this delightful couple and this great book, uh, stop by our website, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: George and Tondra, welcome back.
Tondra Gregory: Thank you. Thank you for having us.
George: Always glad to be here.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: (laughs)
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: It’s another good day. Hey, let’s, uh, pick up, you know, if folks are just tuning in to hear this part of it, hopefully they’ll go hear the other part, like I said, but we talked about your college years, you kind of knew each other, you ended up in the same classes.
You talked about, you know, physical intimacy and aiming that direction before you really had, uh, you, you know, any desire to marry each other. Let, let’s pick it up there-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … where you now are saying, “Hey, maybe we should get married.”
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What did that look like, and then, we’ll move it from there.
Tondra: Okay. (laughs)
George: Well, we’re, we’re human, and, um, you know, there’s a scripture that says that the, the spirit is willing, but the flesh gets weak.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: So, Tondra and I-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … after we gave our life to Christ, we still had some things to work out. And we ended up finally connecting, if you understand what I mean.
Tondra: (laughs)
George: And, uh, a baby was formed.
Tondra: Yes.
George: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: Yes.
George: And so, my dad always taught me that when you, when you do certain things, that you’re going to handle your responsibility. And so, immediately when she told me she was pregnant, uh, I told her, I said, “I love you. I’m not in love with you, but I wanna marry you-
Tondra: Yeah.
George: … I wanna do right by my kid, I wanna make sure that I am there to parent my own kid.”
Tondra: Yeah. And I would just even add, like, growing up with a single mom, I didn’t have that structural emphasis on partnership and family. So, I was like, “No, George, no, we, we don’t have to get married. I can take care of this baby by myself.” (laughs)
George: She told me… I don’t-
Tondra: You know, I just had a total-
John: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: … just total worldview, not even thinking about what would be best for the child-
John: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: … with having… being raised by two parents. So, we made that decision to just go ahead and, and get married. Uh, rolling the dice, is what we say. (laughs) We rolled the dice.
George: Yeah, we don’t suggest anybody do that.
Tondra: (laughs)
George: Um, but we found ourselves really, after looking back over it, like, hindsight is 20/20, we, we entered our marriage with no game plan.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Right.
George: We were being, uh, reactive versus being proactive.
Tondra: Absolutely.
George: And this is what we tell our professional athletes, like, if you don’t want to end in that divorce rate of 70% after retirement, you’ve gotta be proactive in your marriage. You, you can’t be reactive. And we found ourselves behind the eight-ball-
Tondra: Yes.
George: … if you will, and not being on the same team, having no game plan. And there was a lot of frustration, you know?
Tondra: Yes.
George: She thought I looked like Denzel Washington, you know, so-
John: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
George: … I was, for her, I was easy on the eyes, but man, I was a piece of work-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … you know?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: I was a critical… You know, I, I brought a hammer to, to kill a fly-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … in most cases.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And I… And it was a tough thing for me to let things go.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And so, I, I just wasn’t really ready to be married. But what, what we did was, we rebounded from that.
Tondra: Yeah.
George: And we, we went to the same marriage conference-
Tondra: Yeah.
George: … uh, for seven years straight.
Tondra: Yeah.
George: The same content. We could read the fill-in-the-blank before the presenters even-
Tondra: (laughs)
George: … said what the blank was.
Tondra: Yeah.
George: And we knew it back and forth. But the reason why we had to is because we knew that if we didn’t have a plan, if we didn’t do the work that we needed to do to invest in our marriage, we were not gonna make it.
Jim: You know, George, and Tondra as well, that’s really interesting that you say that because we’ve done some research that’s out now, and when we look at strong marriages, particularly what I’ll call convictional Christian marriage-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … these are, it’s us.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s people that really believe in a commitment to Christ. They read the Word regularly, they pray together regularly, they go to church regularly. That group has the lowest divorce rate of any group.
George: Sure.
Tondra: M-hmm.
Jim: And it should be so.
George: Sure.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: That shouldn’t surprise us.
Tondra: Exactly.
Jim: But other nominal Christian divorce rates are actually quite a bit higher-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and, and the world’s higher too.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: And that’s fruit of what it means to live a convictional Christian life.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It doesn’t mean you’re perfect-
Tondra: Right.
Jim: … it doesn’t mean you won’t argue from time to time-
George: Yeah.
Jim: … it doesn’t mean you don’t have rough edges that the Lord’s working out.
George: Sure.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … but it does indicate that people that are putting the Word into play-
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: … putting it into action, first with each other, then with the world around them, including their kids, have far better outcomes.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: Now, it’s not the reason we’re doing it-
Tondra: Mm-uhm.
John: … but it’s the benefit.
George: Sure.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: …. uh, of trusting the Lord and walking with the Lord.
George: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I just wanna go back to those moments where it was rough for you having to go, you know, a number of years in your marriage, even though you made a commitment to Christ, it, it was that, I would assume, that difference between really knowing the Word and applying the Word in your relationship.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Is that accurate?
George: Sure. You know, listen, it’s not easy to be a, a Christian, meaning that when you read the Word, then it says, “Do what it says”-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … you know? So, how I love my wife is really my reflection of my relationship with who God is in my life, right?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And I… And, and that’s what we had to have these hard conversations, right?
Tondra: Yes.
George: Like, are we reflecting Christ’s image in our marriage.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
George: And when we got real, then we said, “No, we’re not.”
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And we talked about, you know, instances of being on the same team-
Tondra: Yeah.
George: … but the thing that I realized is that I couldn’t throw in the towel because marriage is a… Uh, so, our marriage ministry is called Journey For Life.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: We believe marriage is a journey and it should be for life.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And in sports, uh, they always talk about that the season is a long season, and you might not be winning in the first quarter or the first half, but that doesn’t mean you give up.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Or you might not be winning the first half of the season, but you keep grinding, you keep doing what you can, and you keep having what we call discipline and practice.
Tondra: Yeah.
George: That’s what it is. So, elite athletes know this. And that’s what we had to do. We had to get into a rhythm of, really, if you want to go to Scripture, we had to practice the fruit of the Holy Spirit-
Tondra: Yeah.
George: … right? We love to-
Jim: With each other?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: That’s right, of course.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. (laughs)
George: Gentleness, kindness.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Two of those, it says long suffering.
Tondra: (laughs)
George: We, we like to throw those out most of the time, right, ’cause we don’t wanna suffer long. And then, it talks about self-control.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: But all of those are fruits of the spirit in which we have to practice and have discipline in a, in a-
Jim: You know, one of the things I loved about the book, uh, The Marriage Game Plan, is the highlighting of the vows.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, we do go through that very fast. We’re kind of young and-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … intoxicated with love. And you’re standing up there on that day saying, “Did I get this done, did I get this done?”
George: Yeah-
Jim: I don’t know how…
George: … the checklist.
Jim: My brother married us. So, I was actually whispering the, the process to him-
George: (laughs)
Jim: … “The rings,” ’cause then the…
Tondra: (laughs)
Jim: “Now, the candle, do the candle.”
George: Yeah.
Tondra: (laughs)
Jim: You know, he was so… (laughs) he was like, “Just be quiet, I got it. I’m a pastor.”
Tondra: (laughs)
Jim: This is my, my brother.
George: (laughs)
Jim: But that’s how, you know, that’s where mind, my mind was, was-
George: Yes.
Jim: … keep the thing organized. I was like, “Let’s go.”
Tondra: (laughs)
Jim: But you really emphasize the vows and going back to the vows and remembering what it is you said. Why was that important to you?
Tondra: Yes, because I feel, like, after the dust settles, you know, and the romantic fairy tale is over, sometimes, when that happens, a lot of couples lose sight of that bigger picture, right? And so, it’s not just enough to say, “I do,” but you have to say, “I still do.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tondra: And covenant communication is one of the ways we do that, how we work on our communication that aligns with those vows and the commitment that you made. So, it’s that covenant communication, it’s keeping those vows before you, um, and reminding you and not losing sight of what you have just committed your life to.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
George: Yeah.
John: Yeah, a- a- about that, when you do find yourself realizing, “Oh, I have lost sight-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
John: … of what’s really valuable here”-
Tondra: Mm-hmm?
John: … what are some good things to do?
Tondra: Yeah.
George: Yeah, well, you, you gotta go back, sometimes pull those wedding vows back out-
Tondra: Yes, mm-hmm.
George: … right? And those, those are promises, solemn promises, or what we call covenants, right? God… It’s a covenant God. And so, we can’t just break away from those covenants when we get mad. And so, we like to pull those covenants out-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … and just remember. You know, Tondra talked about that covenant language. It’s not just saying, “I do,” it’s about how you continue to talk to each other, how you honor one another-
John: Yeah.
George: … how you prioritize one another.
Tondra: Yeah.
George: Those are the biblical principles that, in contemporary marriages, sometimes they get lost because we want everything to be our way. We, we like to tell people that if you want it your way, you gotta go to, go to Burger King, right?
Tondra: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
George: You can’t always have it your way in marriage, but when you say, “How can I honor my wife,” or, “…my husband,” or, “How can I prioritize them or show them,” and those are the things that I think helps reflect God’s image in our marriage.
Tondra: Yeah, and I would just add, you know, if there are listeners out there who didn’t grow up with a good representation or don’t have a framework for that type of covenant communication, um, that’s where you have to roll up your sleeves and you have to, like, get help, go to these conferences, get counseling.
You know, you can learn how to communicate and resolve conflict, uh, in a way that does honor and align with your values and the vows that you made.
George: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s good, yeah.
John: Yeah. And we’ve got a marriage mentor program that Greg Smalley started; Dr. Greg Smalley runs our marriage department. And, uh, we’ll have a link for that, as well as the book by George and Tondra Gregory, The Marriage Game Plan at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast, or give us a call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.
Jim: Well, let’s crack it open. What exactly is a marriage game plan and what does it do for our relationship? We’ve been hinting at it, but let’s just hit it right between the eyes.
Tondra: Yes.
George: Yeah. Well, we believe a game plan, like, no couple signs up for marriage to lose, right?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: So, we all wanna win, right? But a game plan is a strategy where you, number one is, you define the win.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Define how you want to win. That means, when it’s all said and done, 50, 60 years later, what do you want your marriage to look like, and then, start working back from there.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
John: Can you give me an example of that statement, what that might sound like?
George: So, for us, we wanna always honor each other. We want people to say they honored one another.
John: Mm-hmm.
George: We want people to say, “Oh, they stayed faithful to each other,” right?
Tondra: Yes.
George: With no infidelity. We want people to say, like, “Our kids, we want to leave a legacy.”
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Right? And so, if we just go over those three things, if that’s what you want, then, then you set goals. Number two is that you would set goals and how you’re gonna accomplish those things. I mean, business people, we know these things, right?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: You, you have strategies, and things of that nature. You say, “Here’s what we wanna do.” We set goals. And then, somehow, in marriage, we, we throw that all out the window, right? And so, so a part of that also is, is knowing your team-
Tondra: Yeah.
George: … right? In marriage, this is number three, is that, is that we’ve gotta know our team, you know? And we like to say that we’re, we’re on the same team, because sometimes, in arguments, you just don’t really feel like… or intense fellowship. (laughs)
Tondra: Yeah. (laughs)
George: You don’t feel like you’re on the same team. But to keep that before each other, that we’re on the same team, we know our, our differences, but yet, we know how we’re in common, what we want to do together. And then, four, fourth is you gotta know your enemies or your opponents, right?
Tondra: Yes.
George: Know what’s gonna, know what opposition could come against your marriage, whether it’s health issues, whether it’s, uh… We, we just had to take my mother into our home a few years ago, who has dementia. You never know-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … when things that you have no control of will impact your marriage. But having a game plan, talking about those things early can help. And then, lastly, we, we like to say the fifth one is, you just devise your strategy, which our book helps couples to devise their strategy-
John: Yeah.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … that they’re working on together. And there’s a lot that goes into that, but, but we feel, like, those five things will help couples win in their marriage.
Jim: And Tondra, let me ask you this, as the woman.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: You’re the woman at the table.
Tondra: Yes, (laughs) yes.
Jim: You represent all wives right now.
Tondra: Yes. All right. (laughs)
John: This is gonna be for all humanity.
Jim: But, but, you know, I, I’m sure some wives that are feeling like there’s no hope here.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: My husband doesn’t have the capability of throwing the touchdown pass.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we all know what that means. It’s whatever that wife is looking for, and he just stumbles and can’t deliver.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: He maybe chooses not to.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s just too much work-
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: … and I don’t know that I wanna put the work into that. I mean, speak to that heartbroken woman-
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: … I guess, is what I’m describing, that doesn’t have the hope that this can turn around. What does she do to nudge, to not gripe, but to-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … pray-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and to say, “Lord, can You change our relationship?”
Tondra: Yeah, uh, what I would say is that there is hope. It doesn’t matter where you’re at or where you started, but you get to decide where you are going as a couple.
Now, you do need a willing teammate, you know, ’cause I’m sure there are situations out there where you don’t feel like you have a winning teammate. But the more you grow, the more you pray, the more you are putting in the principles, that is a seed.
We like to say, uh, we have gardens, you know, our hearts are gardens, and the more s- uh, of God’s seed you put in there, it just transforms your heart and it transforms your mind. And if you are focusing on growing and letting God flourish in your life, it’s so powerful, the overflow, that can also draw your husband in. Now, hopefully you have a husband that, maybe, h- he does want to work on this and be a teammate, he just doesn’t know how.
Jim: Well, and I like the concept. And of course, we at Focus On the Family believe in Counseling.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: We have Hope Restored for couples that are really in trouble. And the biggest thing there is how to reconnect.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How to-
George: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … commit to trusting each other, loving each other, creating an environment of safety for one another, kind of basic concepts, which I think is what we all struggle with when we’re struggling in our marriage. These things are kind of basic, to your point.
George: Sure.
Jim: This is what we gotta do-
Tondra: Right.
Jim: … and then we struggle to do them.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: And that, I think, George, to follow up on that question, um, that deep resentment that has festered for five years, 10 years, whatever might it be, now on the husband’s side.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, it’s just not working the way I wanted it to. And you know, it’s typically through the lens of selfishness.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, she’s not meeting some needs-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Sure.
Jim: … or she’s not filling in the gaps where… Rocky Balboa, right?
Tondra: Yeah. (laughs)
Jim: “We got gaps, she’s got gaps, I got gaps.”
George: Yeah. (laughs)
Jim: And we’ve got gaps, and she’s not meeting the needs of my gaps.
Tondra: Yeah. And
Jim: And then you start to think about, “Okay, maybe I missed it. I need a different re- reset, a different wife.”
George: Sure, yeah.
Jim: How do you, how do you say, “Wait a minute, Lord,” especially for Christians, “That’s not it. That’s a reflection on me and my se- selfishness.”
George: Sure.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Sure.
Jim: So, what do you, what do you do with that as the husband that doesn’t feel like your needs are getting met?
George: Yeah. Well, uh, o- one is, I would ask, “Have you clearly articulated your needs,” right?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And have you also addressed the things that you’ve overlooked with her needs, right? And then, we call that vulnerability-
Tondra: Yes.
George: … and authenticity, right?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: There’s a, there’s this thing, uh, about men, sometimes we don’t want to be vulnerable. We don’t want to say this hurts, or to go without, sometimes, is very hurtful.
And yet, in our marriage of over 30 years, there’s been sometimes where I’ve had to go to Tondra and say, “Hey, s- this season is just not fun.”
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: You know, it could have been right after a baby, it could have been, you know, when we were, uh, busy in New York, planning churches.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And, and then, even coming out here, it’s been extremely busy, but yet, if I can find a way to articulate it, it’s not just what you say, it’s how you say it-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
George: … right? And I learned that if I can articulate things to my wife, uh, she has shown me, at least over the years, that she will at least go back and ponder that.
Jim: Yeah.
George: And, and, and that’s what… You know, in, in football language, there’s always teams that you’re, you’re down, you start resenting. You start, you looking at your teammates saying, “Are you giving your all,” or-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … “Are, you know, are you, are you running the plays that you’re supposed to run?” And it’s the coach’s job to get you to say, “If you messed up in that past season or it hasn’t been the best in that past season, you can’t focus on that if you wanna win. If you mess a play up, you gotta say, ‘Look, let’s, let’s turn a page.'”
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
George: Turn a page.
Tondra: Yeah.
George: You know, in sports, they watch film on Mondays-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … from the Sunday loss or the Sunday win. And once they have watched the film, guess what they do? They learn the things they’re supposed to, to learn, but then, they flush it-
John: Yeah.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … because it’s gone. And I think, sometimes, resentment, we stay stuck on the past-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … and we don’t see our way forward. But I think in the Word of God, it just gives us the hope. In fact, we like to say, for our marriage, that we are pictures of God’s grace.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s good.
George: I… In your marriage, you… we should see God’s grace by not because we’re perfect, but because we’re still in this ring together-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … we’re still fighting. We’re still not fighting each other, but we’re trying to fight for our marriage, we wanna fight for our love, we wanna fight for our, our kids’ legacy-
Jim: Yeah.
George: … we wanna fight for all those things, and-
Jim: Which raises, it raises that question where we tend to be more graceless-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … for those closest to us-
Tondra: Absolutely.
George: Sure.
Jim: … our family.
George: Sure.
Jim: Our spouses, maybe our kids-
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: … and then, with friends. That’s why people go, “Wow, he was so nice at church.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s, that’s crazy that they’re divorced.”
George: Sure.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But it, it is, like, this thing where we can’t extend the kindness, that we would extend a friend, to our own spouse.
George: Sure.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s backward.
George: That’s, that’s why we talk about, you know, in the home, we, we call it winning the home game-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … right? It’s not enough to win just the away game or in your career in your hobbies or in, in-
Jim: Right. That’s a good analogy.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … right? You’ve gotta say, “I wanna win in my home game.” And that’s one thing that we, when we’re traveling, we constantly talk about-
Tondra: Yeah.
George: … how can you win your home game? And doing those things of reflecting Christ’s image even when it hurts-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … helps, right?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And so, there, there’ve been plenty of times where I’ve had to go back to… In fact, this week.
Tondra: Yeah.
George: (laughs)
Tondra: Yes. (laughs)
George: You know-
Jim: I love it.
George: … anytime we do something good for God, we already know that the enemy of our soul wants to throw a wrench in our game. So, we found ourselves, you know, you know, giving each other a little hard time.
And we had to come back to each other and say… I asked her this morning, I said, “Do you feel like that was a true representation of our reflection of who Christ is in our marriage?”
Tondra: (laughs)
Jim: Now, was that more about you or more about her?
George: That was about us.
Jim: Okay. (laughs)
Tondra: That was about both… both of us had to, to, um… Listen, uh, that’s the team-mate mentality is, no, like, one wins, we both win, one loses, we both lose.
Jim: And that’s good.
Tondra: So, so if there is a conflict or intense fellowship going on, each one of you have to reflect on your contribution to that ’cause it-
Jim: Yeah.
Tondra: … it can’t continue to go on if two people aren’t helping sustain that-
George: Right.
Tondra: … intense fellowship.
Jim: Yeah.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: No, that’s really good. You, you mentioned those core five steps; define your wins, set your goals, know your team, obviously your spouse-
Tondra: (laughs)
Jim: … uh, know the opponents-
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: … uh, to your team’s success-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and then, design your plan of action. Again, the, the book covers that. I’m thinking of, uh, kind of the, the big victories, the bolder victories that seem pretty obvious.
But for Jean and I, you know, one of the things that she will say to me is, “I feel like we don’t talk deeply about things.” And she’s yearning for that.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I mean, you, you confessed your weekly-
Tondra: (laughs)
Jim: … this week’s problem. So, just last night, I’m thinking to myself, and this is so… I don’t know why. I, you, you know, we had a great discussion-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … partly about family, extended family, but pretty deep.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, you know, I, I was like, “Whew, finally scored that touchdown.”
Tondra: Yeah. (laughs).
George: Sure.
Jim: And she even said, “This has been a great conversation. Thank you for going deep with me.”
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I don’t know why. I mean, it’s just, like, news, weather, and sports is fine with me-
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: … but it doesn’t make it happen-
George: Right, for her.
Jim: … for her. She wants a deeper intimacy.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And it’s not like I’m trying to fumble the ball-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … but you’ve got to even know what those boulders are, or even those little pebbles of victories.
George: Sure.
Tondra: Yes.
Jim: When you’re looking at that game plan, what does your mate need?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Not what you need.
George: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What does she need-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … to feel close and to feel intimate.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: Discuss identifying that-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and then, executing the game plan-
George: Sure, sure.
Jim: … to get there. Like in this case, I feel inadequate about that.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And men, when we feel inadequate, man, we run.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We don’t want to hang out there-
George: Sure.
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: … learn to be adequate.
George: Yep, yep.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Speak to that dynamic.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: Well, well, again, sometimes we just, we don’t have a clue, right?
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: And so, I think your, to your example, when your wife says, “Hey, I, I’d like to go deep here,” that’s the moment for you, now, to sort of say, “Oh, I wasn’t planning to go deep, but if that’s what you need to hear-
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
George: … then I’m ready to go deep.”
Jim: Or, “Can you help me do that-
Tondra: Yeah.
George: Yeah.
Jim: … (laughs) ’cause I don’t really know what that means.”
Tondra: Yes.
George: Exactly.
Tondra: Yes.
George: Like, we, we tell wives, well, I tell wives-
Tondra: Oh, yeah.
George: … I say, “You think wives say, ‘They should just get me. He should just know.'” And I say, “Wives, we don’t know-
Tondra: Yes.
George: … we don’t get you guys all the time,” right? So-
Tondra: Yes.
George: … to understand your heart-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … in every season, right? So, there’s some seasons that Tondra’s cool, and, and then, another season I might need to ask her, “Hey, how are you doing in this season-
Tondra: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
George: … what do we need to talk about-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … where, where’s your greatest fears at during this season?” And it’s really, in our, in our marriage over… for 30 years, we’ve been creating certain zones, like work zones-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … and free zones.
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: So, so a free zone is, don’t ask me big questions when I’m, you know, might be t- watching TV-
Tondra: Yeah.
George: … or if I’m, if I’m wanting to go cycling, or something. But then, there are work zones where we schedule time during the week where we know we’re gonna get deep-
Tondra: Mm-hmm.
George: … um, and you can’t flake out on those moments where it’s time to go deep. And so, so have margin built into your week. That’s what I love to tell people is-
Tondra: Yes.
George: … have margin built into your week where you’re gonna go deep, where you’re gonna ask the hard questions, and you’re gonna set the strategy for, “Hey, if we need to, uh, do something, um, as a result of this conversation, then that’s what we’re gonna do.”
Tondra: Yeah.
Jim: That’s really good. And this has been a great discussion, and we’ve really just scratched the surface, but we can’t cover it all. And I love the idea of the marriage game plan.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s the first time I’ve really thought about that. Let me turn to our listener. Focus On The Family is here for you. We understand the challenges you’re facing, uh, day to day. And if you have questions, I think over 48 years now, I think we’ve got, if not all, most of those answers.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Uh, that’s why we’re here.
John: Yeah, we have an entire library of resources designed to help you, and, uh, a good starting point is our Marriage Assessment. It’s a quick online quiz. When you and your spouse take it, it’s gonna give you personalized results, uh, highlighting your strengths, and maybe, uh, give you an area or two that you can grow in and, uh, talk about in the coming days.
Jim: We also have George and Tondra’s outstanding book, The Marriage Game Plan: Developing a Winning Strategy for Marital Success. And it’s full of helpful, practical information to get you and your spouse on the same page and moving forward in your marriage together.
Um, everybody who’s married needs a copy of this book, and we need your help. Uh, your financial support allows us to provide resources to hurting families, uh, broadcasts, podcasts, books, online articles and assessments, counseling help, and so much more.
We hear from people every day who tell us the impact God has made through the ministry that we do together. In fact, here’s a note from Rebecca. She writes, “My husband and I had been married for 25 years. When I became very dissatisfied with our marriage, I contemplated leaving.
I opened my mailbox and found the Focus On The Family magazine and read it from cover to cover. Then, I spent the next three days listening to your podcasts. God has performed a great work in my marriage, and we chose to use Focus On The Family as my main source of help.
Thank you so much for the work that you do there. You have no idea the impact that you’re making on the world.” Wow! Don’t you wanna be part of that kind of ministry? I hope so.
When you give a gift of any amount to Focus On The Family today, we’ll send you a copy of The Marriage Game Plan as our way of saying thank you for joining us in ministry.
John: Yeah, donate today, and, uh, request your copy of The Marriage Game Plan, and then, uh, we can tell you more about that free marriage assessment when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459, or online, stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus On The Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
