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Grasping the Power of Forgiveness (Part 2 of 2)

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Grasping the Power of Forgiveness (Part 2 of 2)

Al and Lisa Robertson reflect on the pain they've experienced in their lives and in their marriage, and describe how they've found emotional and relational healing through God's grace and the power of forgiveness. (Part 2 of 2)

Today's Guests

Episode Summary

Al and Lisa Robertson reflect on the pain they've experienced in their lives and in their marriage, and describe how they've found emotional and relational healing through God's grace and the power of forgiveness. (Part 2 of 2)

Episode Transcript

Opening:

Teaser:

Lisa Robertson: I think that that is when God started working in my life on that forgiveness because He said, “You know what? You’re not a poster child here. You’ve got some sin in your life, too.” And I think whenever you try to put yourself in somebody else’s shoes, and you say, “OK, now I know why somebody did what they did” – whenever you try to understand their past, you know, the things that happened to them, then I think you can then say, “I can forgive them.”

End of Teaser

John Fuller: That’s Lisa Robertson. And she, and her husband, Al, are with us again today on Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller. Thanks for joining us. Your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: You know, John, I am so grateful to have Al and Lisa back with us. The last time we talked about Desperate Forgiveness, the title of their new book. And uh – man, when you start unpacking forgiveness, there’s a lot to it. The mechanics of it and how you can do it well or do it poorly. And if you missed last time, get the download, get a hold of us because there was a lot of rich wisdom in that discussion. Al and Lisa experienced that forgiveness firsthand within their own lives, their own marriage. And we’ve done that broadcast before. And we’ll connect that again at the website.

John: We’ll link over to that. And I should say, Jim, one of the things that came through loud and clear yesterday was that forgiveness is essential if you want to move forward in life.

Jim: Absolutely.

John: And I heard our guests saying they feel sad for the people that aren’t able to find that forgiveness that they so desperately need.

Jim: Well, yeah, not in a, uh, negative way, but there’s so much life on the other side that it’s an enthusiastic, “Come on. You can do this.”

John: Yeah.

Jim: There’s so much oxygen, so much better life on the other side of forgiveness. But it’s hard to go there. It’s against our flesh.

John: Mmm hmm. Well, we want to help you find that forgiveness. And, uh, if you need, just give us a call. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. We’re online. We’re at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And uh, Al and Lisa Robertson are probably best known for the Duck Commander – A&E Duck Dynasty program. And they’ve written a number of books. They’ve been popular guests here at Focus on the Family a number of times – married for about 35 years. They have two adult daughters and six grandchildren.

Body:

Jim: Al and Lisa, welcome back to Focus.

Lisa: Thank you.

Al Robertson: It’s good to be back. Thank you.

Jim: Man, yesterday, you shared about the struggles you encountered in childhood and – both of you – in different directions but kind of, unfortunately, the broken state that we’re in. You represent humanity in both of your families of origin, and it’s just the way it is. Rarely do we find, unfortunately, just really good, healthy families. I believe a lot of Focus listeners are that. But there are some listening today that are living in that unforgiveness that we began to talk about last time. Lisa, I think I want to open up today with the question about your relationship with your mom because you hinted at it last time. A highly conditional environment where you felt loved when you behaved properly. You know, all of us feel that from time to time, I think we do that with our boys. Probably more often than I wished. You know, how do we, through the lens of your relationship with your mom – first of all, what’s the problem we have to be aware of when it comes to this conditional trap we set in our parenting? And how did that play out specifically with you and your mom?

Lisa: Well, I think so many times, we expect our children to be perfect, to act perfectly. And, you know, we don’t think maybe they might make the same mistakes that we do. But I want my kids to know it doesn’t matter what mistake you made. Um, I’m going to love you. And my love for you is unconditional.

Jim: With your own kids, did you start your discussion of discipline with that tone? And did you say, “OK. You really blew it here. But, you know, mom and dad have blown it before and we know what it means to feel guilt,” and then, “I’m going to approach this in a different way”?

Lisa: Well, we did, um, as they became teenagers.

Jim: (Laughter) Right.

Lisa: Um, we had two girls. And our girls were totally different – still are to this day. Uh, they look different. They act different. But they were raised in the same home. Alan says one of them took after my family, and one of them took after his family. And I think I don’t know so much about that. I think both of them got a little bit of both families there because both of them can be hard-headed. Both of them can be soft-hearted. But, you know, what we wanted our kids to know was that even if you make a mistake – and Alan, he can tell you about this too because he had this discussion with one of our daughters. Even if you make a mistake, be honest with us and tell us that you messed up because we know what that means. We messed up our self.

Jim: Mmm hmm.

Lisa: And so just be honest with us. And let us know, and then we’ll deal with it. But whenever you’re not honest and you lie about it, all you’re doing is compounding the problem.

Jim: That’s such good parenting advice. And it’s hard to do, though…

Lisa: It is.

Jim: …Especially in Christian homes where we want to project this perfection ideal. And then our kids learn to, um, not be real with their circumstances. Um, you and your mom went through some difficult times as adults. I mean, a different relationship from a teen era. But, um, you had a lot of loss in a rapid succession. Describe what happened and how your mom began to pull away from you.

Lisa: Well, my mom… she really – I feel as though she suffered a lot. My dad died, um, in 2004. My sister died in 2008. My nephew died – which was my sister’s son – you know, not long after that…

Jim: So she had…

Lisa: …A year and a half later.

Jim: Your whole family had a lot of loss.

Lisa: Yeah. My brother passed away. I mean – and not only that, my mom had siblings that were dying at the same time.

Jim: Huh…

Lisa: And so, to me, I can look at that… Again – you know, like I talked about yesterday, you have to put yourself in other people’s shoes to understand what they’re going through. And so I looked at that. And I looked at my mom and I thought, you know, her heart is broken. And I believe – I really do, Jim – I believe that she pulled away from me so that if something happened to me, that she would not have that heartbreak.

Jim: So that was her grieving process.

John: Self-protection, yeah.

Lisa: That’s exactly right. Yeah. It was a self-protection mode that she went into. But then also, during all of that, she had some difficulties with her health. So, she also had TIA’s. She had strokes, you know, things like that. I just think she had multiple health problems, multiple heart aches. And then whenever you add onto that – you compound that with living, conditional love. Now, my mom got unconditional love from my dad. My dad loved her to the nth degree. I mean, he loved her. But I believe it was just so engrained in her with her family…

Jim: Yeah.

Lisa: …That it had to be this way or, you know, we’re going to withhold our love.

Al: Well, the tipping point was when our book came out in ‘15. And we were very transparent…

Jim: Right.

Al: …And honest in there. And obviously, her mom felt a lot of guilt from some of that, you know, because it was a family member that had abused her daughter.

Jim: Right, so she felt guilty.

Al: She felt guilty. And so, you know – and she just – quite honestly, she wasn’t happy with us, you know, basically airing out our, you know, laundry, as she called it…

John: Mmm hmm.

Al: …To the whole world. And so it went back to what Lisa described yesterday. It was that we had lost this projection that we were all – this was all great. And so, really, that was the tipping point of when it really went down – and then as her health declined as well. But, again, I was telling you about how heroic Lisa is. She – in spite of her mom being very ugly to her and very difficult to her, she still stepped in and took care of her. She didn’t hold harsh words against her. I mean, she lived that forgiving lifestyle…

Jim: Wow.

Al: …Even though it wasn’t reciprocated at all until the end.

John: How did you do that, Lisa? – Because I’m sure that there was, um, a time when the phone would ring, and you know what’s going to happen.

Lisa: Mmm hmm.

John: And you’d just as soon not answer it. But it’s your mom. How did you push through for that?

Lisa: Well, I just had to go back to the fact that my mom gave me life, and I owed her my life. And so as we pushed through each time – because there would be some pretty harsh phone calls that I would get from my mom – each time I went back to that. This is my mother. And, you know, we don’t get to choose our mothers. We don’t get to choose our fathers. And so each time, I just had to think about, this is what she gave me. She gave me life. She gave me an opportunity to meet the man that I love. She gave me so many things that I could not hold her harsh words against her because God forgave me of so many things, so many terrible things that I had done. And I just thought, “I’ve got to forgive her.” See; God tells me if I want him to forgive me, I have to forgive other people.

Jim: Yeah. That’s the main message. I think, both Lisa and Al, the point here – and we’re going to move on. I want to talk about your family, Al, after this. But I want to punctuate this because today in the culture, it’s hard. And what I mean by that – we’re not grooming ourselves to have a forgiveness in our heart for people. We don’t train ourselves to be in the other person’s shoes – not even in the Christian community. You know, cable news and everything else that’s going on…

Al: That’s right.

Jim: It’s about warfare.

Al: That’s right.

Jim: And it’s about what we need and what we want. And that’s not necessarily bad if it’s good things for the culture, et cetera. But we are not conditioning ourselves to live what I would say is a Gospel-filled life, where you are doing the things that you’ve talked about. Al, that bigger level of the culture community – you know, you guys have been on TV; you have gotten the ridicule.

Al: Oh, yeah.

Jim: It’s hard to forgive people that say stupid things, that don’t know who you are or what your life is all about.

Al: You’re right.

Jim: How do you go there when the whole culture’s teaching you “Be mad. Be angry. You have a right to be angry”?

Al: That’s right. You should be. No, you’re spot on, Jim. And culturally, you see it – someone makes a mistake 30, 40 years ago and then says, you know, they – somebody, you know, does a gotcha, and then it’s like, “I’m so sorry. I’m a different person now.” And yet it’s like – the mindset now is, “You can never serve in any capacity ever again. Just go away. We never want to hear from you again.”

Jim: It’s like the greater value is vengeance.

Al: Exactly.

Jim: …Not forgiveness.

Al: Yeah. And it’s all being done, you know, mostly on social media, which is terrible. That’s just, you know, trafficking. But you’re right. I think by telling stories that we’ve told in this new book, Desperate Forgiveness, – in there, I tell about when Lisa was at her mom’s funeral, there were so many fractured relationships because of this whole thing. It wasn’t just us – Lisa had problems. You imagine grandkids, and there were people that hadn’t talked to each other in years. And I watched Lisa for three days before – from when her mom passed until the funeral, calling up nephews and nieces and people that hadn’t talked to each other, hadn’t seen each other in years and pull them all together…

Jim: Wow.

Al: …And say, “We want to honor Mamaw (ph), we want to honor Mom, we want to honor Aunt Mauddie (ph).” And she pulled them together.

Jim: Oh, wow.

Al: And she did it with a heart of forgiveness. And so we have to not only practice that, but then we’ve got to tell those stories because you’re right, we are swimming upstream, culturally…

Jim: Yeah.

Al: …To say, you know, grace still can impact things, whether it’s a – politically or culturally or any other way, instead of always being vengeful and always being angry.

Jim: Yeah.

Al: Cause the temperature stays so high. But, man, when you see somebody extend grace to someone, it’s a such a rare thing now. So we’ve got to not only do that on a consistent basis and live it, we’ve got to tell the story. You know, don’t be stingy with God’s victories. I mean, tell what he’s done.

Jim: Yeah. And amazingly, you will – as a Christian, you and your God will stand out in a culture that’s going the other direction…

Al: That’s right.

Jim: …When you do forgive, when you do have mercy toward others. Let’s move to your family, Al, really quick. Again, in Desperate Forgiveness, – filled with great stories – you mention somebody named Terry. Describe what happened with Terry and why that stuck out in your mind.

Al: Well, you know, uh, we get a lot of crazy visits…

(LAUGHTER)

Jim: That’s polite.

Al: …Through the years. Yeah. When the thing was, like, you know, really ginnin’ (?), and people were coming from all over the country. But at the same time, some of it was just to meet you, and they were impacted by the family. But there’s always been – there was always a spiritual, you know, part of people being drawn to our family. And we embrace that, you know, Dad the most because Dad probably enjoyed doing the show the least because he doesn’t like silly stuff, and we’re pretty silly. But he loved the potential impact…

Jim: The impact, yeah.

Al: …To get the Gospel out.

Jim: I could see that.

Al: Yeah. So this – the man you mentioned, he comes down with his family, his wife and – had an infant child and then, like, a bigger son. And you know, he gets to the – he thinks he’s just gonna drive up in the yard. It’s gonna look as it does on the show. He didn’t realize they’d put a gate up to – just because there was so much traffic. So he decides to just scale the gate, you know, because he’s come to hear about Jesus. Now…

Jim: You’ve got to be careful doing that with your dad (laughter).

Al: Well, that’s a very – that’s a bad call. Which, when I met this man, I told him – I said, “You were taking your life, literally, into your hands. I realize you had a higher motive.” And so Dad literally met him with his AR at the door, and so the guy’s face just drains of color, you know, because he’s – and he kind of is stumbling now. But it’s he and his son. And so Dad said, “Well, what did – how’d you get in here?” And he said, “Well, I climbed the fence.” He said, “Why’d you do that?” And he said, “Well, I just wanted to see if you’d tell me about Jesus.” He said, “Well, if you were up to no good, that’s probably what you would say, so I’m not sure about you.” He said, “I tell you what,” – and he said, “Well, my wife is in the car; they were at the gate.” He said, “I’ll tell you what – you go back, you get in the car, and if you’re really who you say you are, you bring her back in here, I’ll rustle us up some grub, and I’ll tell you the good news of Jesus.” He said, “But if you’re not, you hit that car, and you keep on going because you don’t want to come back in here.” So…

(LAUGHTER)

Jim: Yeah, right.

Al: It was a very tense moment.

Jim: And I’ve been to the house.

Al: Exactly, you’ve been there. So you know, five minutes later – he gives them the gate code. So five minutes later, here comes this family in. And they come in, Dad makes them supper, and they sit down. He shares Jesus with them. And the guy’s like, man. And he said, “Well, Mr. Phil, would you baptize us before we leave?”

Jim: So he accepted Jesus?

Al: He accepted Jesus right there.

Jim: Wow.

Al: And then he said, “And we don’t wanna drive back without getting baptized, too.” And so they said, “We could do it in the river,” and he said, “Well, let’s go.” So we baptized them all. And then I met them in church that weekend; they came to White’s Ferry Road. And course, I was telling the guy – I was like, “Man, you know, that was risky.”

Jim: (Laughter).

Al: But I kind of thought about, you know, the – when they lowered the – in the book, we talk about in that story when they lowered the guy down to Jesus.

Jim: Through the roof.

Al: Through the roof. And so, you know, it was a risky maneuver, but when you got to get to Christ, you got to get to Christ. And so, you know, thankfully, now he’s a son of God, you know, because the process.

John: Love the legacy aspect of that story as well. Um, today would be a good day to contact us here at Focus on the Family. If you would like to find out more about the forgiveness that God offers and how you can find and really put into practice forgiveness. Our number is 800-A-FAMILY. Or stop by our website, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And I would direct your attention to the book by our guests Al and Lisa Robertson, Desperate Forgiveness: How Mercy Sets You Free. And, Jim, we’ve mentioned it, as well; we do have caring Christian counselors here to talk through your specific circumstances and help you get on the road to forgiveness.

Jim: Let me, uh, if I can mess with you a little, Al, (laughter)…

Al: Always.

Jim: Yeah, I love this. The revelation that you had with your brother Jep. Uh, in the book, you mention almost like the older-brother attitude – or just like the older-brother attitude. Set that up for us. Why was that occurring? What birth order is Jep with the – with you all? And then what was going on in your heart, the jealousy, or what was happening?

Al: Well, you know, it’s interesting because, I’m the oldest, and Jep is the youngest, so there’s…

Jim: There’s a problem right there (laughter).

Al: There’s 14 years between us. And, no, when I speak publicly, I call him my baby sister because…

Jim: (Laughter) That goes down well.

Al: That goes down well. And I always get the eye rolls, you know, because he’s – he’s so sensitive, you know. He’s the baby, you know, of the family. But, you know, I was the younger brother in real life. I, you know, we talked about this last time, um, you know, we talked about our first book. I was a prodigal through my high school years. So in essence I was the younger brother, you know, in the – in the…

Jim: Even though you were the firstborn.

Al: …Even though I was the firstborn.

Jim: You lived a prodigal life.

Al: So, right. So then, you know, Jase and Willie basically, you know, not perfect but they didn’t go down the same road. They stayed – they hung in there, which is a blessing. And then Jep, you know, did the same thing as me. A little later – he was his college years – but he, you know, for about three years basically did the exact same thing.

Jim: So the bookends were the prodigals.

Al: The prodigals. And when mom speaks she always asks the audience, she says, “Now, two of my four were prodigal sons. Can you guess who they were – who they are?” And the audience always says Willie and Jase ‘cause they fight on the show, you know, and it’s obvious why they would choose them. And she’s like, “No, it’s the oldest and – the preacher and the baby.” That’s the way she describes it. But, you know, I think what happened to me – and this is what we talked about quite a bit in the book – because I think all of us have some of the older brother from Luke 15 in us…

Jim: Absolutely.

Al: …You know, that – that Phariseeism just kind of sets up. And that was the whole point of the parable anyway, was more for the older than the younger. But, you know, even me, even though I had experienced it, even though I had embraced God’s forgiveness, had been brought back in unconditionally by my parents. You know, you preach for a while and you deal with people and then so in Jep, you know, I resented it because he grew up in a Christian home. I mean, he didn’t grow up in the same home I grew up in. He had every advantage to do the right thing. And so for whatever reason I didn’t extend grace as quickly as I should have. And his – he impacted me. So in the book we talk about – we had a intervention for Jep because Willie was working with a college age at that time, and so he had been hearing that Jep wasn’t doing well, along with my cousin. And so we surrounded him. And of course, dad, you know, kind of laid the law down on him at first. He said, “First thing you need to do is put those keys to my truck that you’re driving around in my hand. Because you’re (unintelligible) live this way – and I’m gonna fund it (ph).”

Jim: So taking away the goodies.

Al: Taking away the goodies right off the bat. Well, and, you know, all of us had been in prayer, we didn’t know how Jep was going to respond. And so Jep obviously, you know, broke and broke pretty quickly. And he looked up at us, and the one thing we mention in the book that he said that really touched me was, “What took you guys so long?”

Jim: Wow.

Al: You know, like, he had just been waiting for us to swoop in and say, “You can’t live this way.” And so, you know, we all got around him on the floor. And we were all crying, which is very un-Robertson-like, you know, for the men especially. And yet, we were touched and moved, you know, because he had come home. And so I think that’s when I dealt with my own issues of why are you being so, you know, hard on him. He’s just another guy who has been messing up and now who’s found his way home. You know, just because he’s your youngest brother doesn’t mean you should treat him differently than any other person you would deal with in your church.

Jim: Right, but, now, the difficulty there – and I just want to tease this out and you can keep going with that story – but you got to make a decision as the older brother in the story. Obviously, the – the prodigal parable, the older brother never figures it out.

Al: That’s right.

Jim: So he came to the fork in the road and chose to be hardhearted toward his younger brother.

Al: That’s right.

Jim: What gave you the capacity to say, “Wait a minute, let me look at my own heart. I’m not – I’m not treating Jep the way I should”? That’s the difference.

Al: It was. And it happened for me, Jim, when I was driving home that day, and I just had to pull over. And I just, I mean, I wept. And we had all been in tears praying over Jep, but I just wept. I mean, I felt like when – when Peter was in that moment of realizing he betrayed Christ because I was like – it just inwardly the dam broke. Literally. And so I realized from that point forward, you cannot be the older brother and see grace extended and somehow feel like justice hasn’t been done. You have to trust God more than that. And that’s what impacted me. And it made me a better preacher. It made me a better brother, obviously, after that. And so Jep and I have had a lot of long talks about that since. And I even told him – I called him and I said, “Look. I’m going to tell in the book, you know, just my own weaknesses. I just wanted you to know that.” And basically, we pulled a lot of his story from his book, you know, telling about how it all went down. But he said, “Man, I love you and I always – I always will.” And so, you know, as we move forward in our relationship it’s neat to have that as a – and I’m so much older than Jep, you know, when he – when he and Jessica have any issues, typically, Lisa and I are the ones they call.

Jim: Oh, that’s great.

Al: You know, and so – but it was, again, I had to step over that, you know. And it’s very easy – remember in the story part of the problem was the older brother was resentful that he had squandered the money, too. I mean, that was there and it was part of his – then he gets to come back in and, I mean, we’re not – how does that happen? So you can see very easily how people can hold grudges.

Jim: It’s the rules.

Al: That’s right.

Jim: I hold on to the rules. The rules are being broken; therefore, I’m justified.

Al: That’s right.

Jim: Rather than grace.

Al: …Instead of just saying, “A sinner who’s come home, let’s rejoice,” you know? And, uh, you know, so in our case we killed the fattened catfish and had a celebration.

(LAUGHTER)

Jim: I love it. That’s what you do in Louisiana. I love that. Uh, we’re down to the last few minutes here, and I do want to provide real practical helps to the folks. And, again, the book, Desperate Forgiveness, is filled with ways to put it and deploy it and live it. And you both have done such a beautiful job in your own lives, which allows you to speak with authority. And I so appreciate that. You guys are real people. And I also appreciate that. But you’ve outlined these 13 disciplines for living a life of forgiveness. We’re not going to be able to cover them all in two minutes. But this is the core of the help in the book. Seek forgiveness now, No. 1. Don’t wait. Why not? Why can’t I wait a few more days because I’m really relishing and not letting that person off the hook, Lisa?

Lisa: Well, I think it’s because, you know, the more time that goes by, the harder it is to forgive someone. The more trauma that happens in a person, each and every day, your heart gets harder every day. So the longer you wait – you’ve got to do it now. Seek that forgiveness right now.

Jim: Don’t put it off.

Lisa: Don’t put it off. I mean, there is grace. There is mercy. And it’s just waiting for you to accept it.

Jim: Lisa, another one that jumps out at me is forgiving yourself. And I think one of the themes I’ve seen sitting in this chair at Focus on the Family is how hard women, particularly, are on themselves. Men have a great capacity to forgive themselves. It was the other guy’s fault. We just go there quickly. I think it’s our pride. So we don’t deal with it. But women, they heap it on. I’m not a good wife. I’m not a good mother. How does a woman, particularly, how does she really learn to forgive herself?

Lisa: Well, it’s not something that you decide one day you’re going to do and tomorrow you wake up and it’s done. It’s an everyday process. It takes years, you know? And even now, I mean, I’ve forgiven myself, but I’ll just look back some time and go, “How could I have done that, you know?” But then I think about grace of God. He forgave me. And so one of the things that I tell women is this. “Whenever you look at the blood that was shed on that cross, if you cannot forgive yourself, what you’re saying is, ‘that wasn’t quite enough. I need more.’ Well, that was enough. If God, our Creator, can forgive us, if our loved ones can forgive us, then we owe it to our Creator to forgive ourselves and not live in that shame and that guilt for the rest of our life.”

Closing:

Jim: That is so well said. I hope that’s connecting with you as you listen to this. Again, Al and Lisa, the time’s flown by. I have some more questions, if we can do what we call the web extra. It sounds so important – doesn’t it? – the web extra. But let’s go to the website. We’ll continue talking and recording. And you, as a listener, if you want to see and hear more, go to the Focus website, and we’re going to continue the discussion.

But before we leave today, man, if this is an area that you are tripping up on, you haven’t been able to forgive yourself, you haven’t been able to forgive others, this is core to our faith as Christians. Maybe you haven’t made that commitment yet to Christ. It’s all here for you. Contact us. Get in touch with us. Start that relationship with the Lord. And then move into forgiveness. And we have all the tools and resources to help you do that.

John: You can find those tools and resources, which include the book by the Robertson’s, Desperate Forgiveness. And certainly, our team of caring Christian counselors, and more, at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And today, if you can make a monthly donation of any amount to the ministry of Focus on the Family, we’ll say thank you for joining our support team in making that commitment by sending a copy of Al and Lisa’s book, Desperate Forgiveness: How Mercy Sets You Free. And we know that you might not be in a spot where you can make that monthly commitment, uh, try to make a one-time gift, if you can today, and we’ll send the book, as well. Once again, our number: 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

Jim: Al, I know a pastor’s heart. My brother was a pastor for many years. I got to ask you to pray before we leave. Pray for this audience that’s listening right now. There are people that the Lord has appointed this moment for their hearts to break. So let’s pray with that attitude.

Al: I’d love to. Father, first of all, I’m just so thankful that you have chosen to forgive us for our failings and our weaknesses and our shortcomings and our sinful decisions and behaviors. We embrace your grace. And we do so because it changes us. It makes us different. And so thank you for that. I do pray, Father, for hearts that are listening. That have been touched or stirred by some of the stories that we have shared. And I pray, Father, that they’ll reach out to You. You are the great healer. You are the great relationship builder and rebuilder. And you do awesome and mighty things. And so I pray, Father, that those who are feeling doubt and uncertainty because the evil one, I pray, Father, for a turning to you, for a reaching out through seeking a counselor, seeking someone who will point them to you and the great forgiveness that we embrace. Lisa and I are so awesomely thankful for what you’ve done in our lives. And we thank you for Focus and what they do every – every day to help build families and just pray a great blessing on them. And we pray this, Father, in the name of Jesus. Amen.

Jim: Amen. Thank you, Al and Lisa, thank you so much for being with us. It’s been good.

Lisa: Thanks.

John: It really has been great to have you here. And uh, let me turn to our audience and just say thank you for listening in today as we’ve featured the Roberson’s. And plan to be with us again next time, won’t you, when we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

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