Michael Johnson: And the goal, yes, is marriage. In fact, if you look in the definition of friends-first dating, we say the goal is a life-giving, life-long marriage. So that’s the goal. But that’s not the purpose. The purpose of dating is growing a friendship that might get you there.
John Fuller: That’s Michael Johnson and he joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, talking about how you can prepare yourself well for marriage. Thanks for joining us, I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, we have so many great resources here at Focus on the Family. The way people need to think about this place, it’s a treasure trove of help for marriage, pre-marriage, for parents, for guidance on movies and all kinds of things.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, we have Hope Restored. The list is just so long. If you have an issue in your family, call us and get the ball rolling, and we will help to find a solution for you. We will work tirelessly to do that. And to ensure that you have what you need to make your marriage as strong as it can be, to help you in your parenting and so much more. And we’re gonna share some great basic tools for developing healthy relationships and putting Christ first today as we talk about the dating relationships.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Do you remember those days?
John: I do with some fondness and also some, uh, sorrow about some of the ways I mismanaged that.
Jim: Wow. Maybe we’ll get into that.
John: I hope not. Our guest today is Michael Johnson. He’s the President and Dean of Dating at Future Marriage University, which he co-founded with his wife Julie. And he’s written a book called Date Like You Know What You’re Doing: Your DatePrep Guide. And that is the basis for our conversation today. Uh, you can learn more about Michael and, uh, what he does and this great book at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Michael, welcome to Focus on the Family.
Michael: Thank you for having me.
Jim: Okay. Now, this dating expert thing, that’s quite a label. But you did date quite a bit in college, it sounds like.
Michael: Well, yeah. I … You gotta understand that and I was, I was looking for a believer, uh, and I grew up in St. Louis. And there, there wasn’t a plethora of believers there, that wasn’t the buckle of the Bible belt, at least not ones I was attracted to. But I get to Baylor University in Waco, Texas, and the scales fall from my eyes.
Jim: Yes.
Michael: And I see that it is good.
Jim: And this is the motivation for going to Baylor.
Michael: Well, I, I, you know, it’s funny you say that because I honestly, with God as my witness, did not notice that in my visits prior. It wasn’t until I showed up for orientation and I was like, oh my goodness. Gorgeous, godly women everywhere. So-
Jim: And what was your major at Baylor?
Michael: Well, I was a business major.
Jim: Okay.
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: This is like a commercial for Baylor.
Michael: There you go.
Jim: And we love Baylor.
Michael: Yeah. Well-
Jim: But, uh, that’s funny.
Michael: Yeah. So yeah, I, I maybe, maybe went out with, um, 30 different girls-
Jim: Okay.
Michael: … my freshmen year.
Jim: And what was your purpose then? What were you … Just to have fun? Or what was going on?
Michael: Well, I mean, I, I wanted a girlfriend really bad. And, um, again-
Jim: Because you wanted to get married? Or just wanted a girlfriend?
Michael: Honestly, because I wanted, wanted a girlfriend.
Jim: Okay.
Michael: And, um, I … Marriage was not really a thing that I thought about consciously until my mom gave me a marriage book Christmas of my junior year in college. I was like not dating anybody seriously. I always think, “Thanks mom. I, I get it, you want grandkids.” But I read it anyway. And reading that marriage book, it changed my whole perspective on what marriage was from the gateway to guilt-free sex, to maybe something a lot bigger than that. Which then changed my perspective from what I was looking for in a girlfriend for like, wow, no, I want to, I wanna be married. And so then instead of looking for a playmate, I thought, I, I wanna look for a teammate. And it just so happened that while I was trying so hard to get all these other girls to fall for me, which if anybody’s watching the video, they can see that was a, that was a long shot and it didn’t happen. Meanwhile, I was developed … I had this great friendship with this girl named Julie. And so I come back to Baylor second semester of junior year, and I’m like, “Teammate. Yeah.” And I always thought she was cute, and suddenly she became gorgeous. And she agreed to date me seriously. And yeah. And we did it because we wanted to get married.
Jim: Um, let me ask you this. How can couples build that kind of, uh, you know, relationship and also direction to aim toward a mission in their, in their dating and then in their marriage?
Michael: Well, I think it begins with first, uh, and in my book I give like 10, what we call DTP talks. You’ve heard of the DTR talk, right?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Michael: Define the relationship. Well, the DTP talk is, why don’t you define the person first? And one of those DTP talks, defining the person is what sense of calling do they have on their life already? And I had a calling on my life. I I … Before I knew I wanted to be married, I knew I wanted to go into the entertainment business. And I wanted to … I, I had very specific ideas about that. Am I doing that now today? No. But I did for several years in the Christian music industry. But I think that Julie liked that. That I didn’t … I wasn’t just getting a business degree, I wanted to work somewhere.
Jim: Yeah. You had a purpose.
Michael: No, I, I had … Meanwhile, I mean, I could see that, that she had a missions’ mindset too. She didn’t have something quite as specific as that. But to answer your question, it starts with the dater actually having a sense of calling on their life already. And then as they date and they meet someone and they’re like, “Oh.” That … Like if I, if I was to date somebody that knew they were called to foreign missions, yeah, that calling doesn’t … I’m not, I’m not … That doesn’t work.
Jim: Yeah.
John: Yeah, we had that actual thing rise up in our relationship. We started off as friends. And I think you endorse that approach ’cause I figured like, what’s the worst? I get a friend out of this deal.
Michael: Mm-hmm.
John: But there was … At one point, before we got married, my wife said, “I really feel called to the mission field.” And I had to say, “I don’t feel called. I don’t even know what that means.” But if God tells me to do something, I will do it down the road. I mean, I’m, I’m, I’m not gonna resist whatever He has to say. So, uh, go back to the friendship thing and talk about the importance of laying that, that foundation of being a friend.
Michael: Yeah. Well, because whenever I’m dating thinking, “Well, are we gonna get married? Are we gonna get married? Well, is this the person I’m supposed to marry? Am I gonna marry them?” Where are you living? You’re trying to live in the future and you can’t live in the future.
And so we separate the goal and the purpose of dating.
John: Mm-hmm.
Michael: And the goal, yes, is marriage. In fact, if you look in the definition of Friends-First Dating, we say the goal is a life-giving, lifelong marriage. So that’s the goal. But that’s not the purpose. The purpose of dating is growing a friendship that might get you there. And again, you said you did this, it sounds like intentionally.
John: Mm-hmm.
Michael: Julie and I did this unintentionally. Um, but bottom line, we grew this friendship and it’s like, once the friendship like kind of caught fire, in fact, we’d say … And we … It felt like falling in love. But really we more or less grew in love. Because we had this friendship that was just so close, so connected. Even coming here today for this broadcast, my wife and I laughed over two or three stupid, silly … If you would’ve been in the car with us, you probably wouldn’t exactly been exactly on the same page. But that’s the friendship we have.
John: Mm.
Michael: So when you can encourage them … Yeah, no, the focus is not, are you gonna get married? Is this the person you’re gonna marry? Are you gonna marry? No, the focus is, how is that friendship working? Well, you know, we had a lot of miscommunications again on the last date.
John: Hmm.
Michael: Mm. That’s facts that you need to focus on. Or man, we had this hard conversation the other day and I thought about what she said and I changed my mind. I think she’s right.
John: Hmm.
Michael: In fact, that’s really wise. I see a … Whoa, uh, that’s facts you wanna focus on. You want to, you know, move forward with that.
Jim: Let me ask you, you have a story about … This is kind of funny. So you … ‘Cause you said you dated 30 girls in college.
Michael: Freshman, freshman year in college.
John: Oh, just in a year.
Jim: Yeah, okay, so you did mention, uh, in the book, one girl that broke your heart.
Michael: Oh.
Jim: So you, you brought this up, it’s not me.
Michael: Yeah, it’s in the book.
Jim: So everybody, don’t get mad at me.
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: But you call her Danielle, I’m sure you’ve changed her name.
Michael: Exactly, yes.
Jim: But what did she do?
Michael: Well, she didn’t do anything. But I came sophomore year thinking, “Let’s do that again. Let’s go out with a bunch of different girl.” And when I say go out with 30 different girls, I don’t mean a dating relationship. I mean, like, we went on a date-
Jim: Yeah.
Michael: … or two or three dates. But it, it was just like that. But that said, I come my sophomore year gonna do the same thing and I fall hard for this girl named Danielle. I mean … Well, not really. But that’s what we’re calling her. I mean, I’m just head over heels. And at the same time, I could clearly perceive she is not that into me. And I said, “God, how did this happen?” And I distinctly felt God say, “Oh, so you want my opinion now?” And I was like … I struggle with self-righteousness there, just saying. I was like, “Want your opinion now. Do I need to remind you that I waited till I got to a school where I could meet Christian girls before I ever dated at all? And we did good Christian things.” I I, we, I wanted to find out their testimony. There was no speaking in tongues, there was no laying on of hands. You know, I went through how righteously and well I did it. And when I was done with my little diatribe, I was like, “Are you saying you wanted me to like ask, like pray, like, ‘Lord, should I ask Danielle out?'” He’s like, “Yes.”
Jim: So that what you would say, what you learned was to go to the Lord with everything.
Michael: Absolutely. And, and not just … It’s not about following the rules. It’s not, I mean, yes, you want to follow God’s law. But it’s about the relationship. And I’m like, “Hey, God, I got this.” I got all these rules of … I’m, I’m obeying all your rules here. And all the while God’s like, “No, I wanna be a part of this.”
John: Yeah.
Michael: And so yeah, that really, that rocked me. And, uh, I didn’t go out with as many girls-
John: That’s good.
Michael: … my sophomore year.
John: That’s good.
Michael: John, that’s good.
John: So Michael, there … I, I go back to my dating years and there was this big nebulous God’s will and, and that has some effect here to what you’re talking about-
Michael: Mm-hmm.
John: … because, um, did you pray, Lord, should I ask this person out? Should I ask this person out for marriage? How does the greater God’s will, uh, understanding affect our dating?
Michael: Well, I, I like to think of it like having three legs to the stool. Uh, by the way, let’s, let’s back up first and say what most people base knowing God’s will on in dating and that’s feelings. You know?
John: Yeah.
Michael: You know, I, I just … I sense … I knew God told me, dah, dah, dah. But I think let’s back that up with, yes, seeking Him in prayer. Yes, being in His Word. But then also seeking community with believers. Those are the three commitments that you really need to have. That the commitment to knowing God’s Word, uh, seeking him in prayer and pursuing community with the believers so that then when I have these feelings for this girl, and when I pray I sense God, like yeah. In fact, I, I’ll tell you what happened. Junior year, uh, after coming back from reading that book, I was like, “God, um, do you think Julie and I should date seriously?” Actually, I, I felt like God said, “If you wanted to date Julie seriously, I’d be pleased with that.” And I said, “Pleased because we’re gonna get married?” And I felt like He said, “No. I’m just saying, I mean, if you wanted to date, you know, take your relationship to the next level, that that would, that would be nice.” “Nice because we’re going to get married.” I don’t feel like He said. I feel like I just had the green light to move forward. But then that third thing that so many people neglect is that community with believers. So, uh, when it comes to, you know, looking at community, the best story that I tell in my book, this is probably the best story I tell in my book. Um, I, I live with the same three guys, sophomore, junior, senior year in college. Um, but my freshman year, one of my roommates had dated Julie. Seriously. Not, not just like I was doing, going out with all those girls. But like, as a girlfriend and she broke up with him. And then they went out again as boyfriend, girlfriend, and she broke up with him again. Junior year, I’m not sure how over her he is. I really don’t know. We, I … This is not a point of conversation I have with this roommate. But, uh, I decided that January, after reading that book that my mom gave me, and looking at Julie and thinking, “Hey, I got a teammate.” I’m like, “I talked to her about let’s date seriously.” But then I’m like, “How am I gonna tell my roommates? How am I gonna tell him?” Yancey and Pete say, great. My college pastors say, great. How are my roommates gonna affirm this? And lo and behold, one of my roommates comes into the room, not the one that dated her, and he said, “Hey, were you and Julie … Have you and Julie ever thought about dating seriously?” I was like, “Uh, uh, uh, Julie, who?” Uh, I, I, I mean, I felt like Bob Newhart, like I just fumbling all over myself. And he goes, “Well, Stuart, Craig and I were talking and we just felt like you guys get along so well. And Greg just said he’d really hate for his past relationship with Julie to stand in the way of you guys getting together.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Michael: I mean, gentlemen, I felt the Shekinah glory of the Lord-
John: Yes.
Michael: … shine down into that room.
John: Mm-hmm.
Michael: I never could have imagined that blessing.
John: Yeah.
Michael: And there it was, all three of my roommates, including the one that date her in the past, like, you go guy. And I know when I share that story that that is what the reader wants in their day. They, they want that kind of affirmation. As opposed to just, well, I just saw her across the room and the Lord told me in ancient Greek that, you know. And, and I’m not just … Well, I actually am kind of discounting that. But I mean, for every person that believes the Lord told me, and there’s happily married today, there’s somebody else that believes the Lord told me and they’re divorced.
John: Mm-hmm.
Michael: And for every one of those, there’s someone that believed the Lord told me and they never got married. And for every one of those, there’s someone that believed the Lord told me and they never actually spoke to each other. So-
John: So you have to be careful about the voices you to-
Michael: Exactly.
John: … and not let the feelings drive what’s going on.
Michael: Yeah. Well, let’s just consider that maybe there’s this other guy that has access to your soul.
John: Mm.
Michael: The one who shall not be named. And maybe he comes across like an angel of light.
John: Mm.
Michael: And maybe he can make you think that he’s the Lord and that he’s identified this right person. So just, again, the three legs. Yes, seek God in prayer, pursue community with believers and know His Word.
John: Mm-hmm.
Michael: And when those come together, it’s beautiful.
John: Yeah, yeah. Appreciate that. Uh, Michael Johnson is our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we’ll encourage you to get a copy of his book, Date Like You Know What You’re Doing. Uh, we’ve got copies of that here at the ministry. Just stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Let me ask you about cohabiting, because that’s a big issue in the church today. Where, you know, the idea is if we can just kind of test drive this relationship, see if we can live in the same room day after day, and all those things that go with that, the data on it is very bad.
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: That’s the, the most critical component of this. Uh, I don’t recall exactly the number, but it’s a high percentage of couples that don’t survive that to make it into marriage. Now you might be saying, “Well, that proves the point then.” There’s something binding about marriage that is not binding about cohabitation-
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: … and that’s the big difference.
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: Is that cohabitation can break apart because I get up and I don’t feel like being engaged with you anymore-
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: … being involved with you anymore.
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: Whereas marriage, you know, there, there’s a commitment there-
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: … that’s so critical. That even though I don’t like being here right now, I’m married to you, I gotta figure it out.
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: And that’s a, a bond that goes beyond cohabitation, which is probably why so many cohabitors don’t make it.
Michael: Yeah. Uh, you know, it’s an entirely different mindset. It’s the try before you buy a mindset. Which is, is so different from what I … The decision I made, the decision you gentlemen made when you’re like, I’m giving my life to you. I’m pledging my life to you. I’m gonna love, honor and serve you however I can.
Jim: Why in your twenties does it feel so logical and so mature though, to try this out?
Michael: Um, because it, it does … I, I mean, it does look like it makes sense. Like, how … Why would I want … Like, we wouldn’t do it with a roommate. I’m gonna commit to living with you for the rest of my life. No, we’re gonna be, we’ll see how this works. Um, but the reality is even if you get along with someone really well for five years, it doesn’t mean you’re gonna get along with them really well for your lifetime. Many married people do that. So what is the difference between cohabiting for five years before you marry versus just getting married and being married five years? And you know, it, it doesn’t … You, you, you really have to have a sense of commitment. And again, that’s one of the things we talk about in the book is not so much like, oh, let’s move in together and let’s see if this works. But no, you wanna find someone who already has shown that they can commit. Because when you hear about their work situation, they’re committed. When you see the friends that they hang out with, they’re committed. They aren’t bouncing from church to church or, or young adult group to young adult group. They’re committed. And it is that quality that makes a marriage last. It is not how well you mesh together because you … We all three at this table, and you listening know several couples that are very happily married that have so little in common. But they just make it work. And other couples that like, you know, they, they split apart and you’re so surprised ’cause they seem just perfect. So I understand it, it looks like it makes sense to move in together. But you really test the relationship by seeing, will this person wait?
Jim: Well, but the … And the most important thing is coming back to what must I do to honor God-
Michael: Mm.
Jim: … in this relationship and every relationship.
Michael: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And you know, I think in my twenties, that’s what I began to realize. You know, it’s back to what you said at the very beginning. Did you ask me about dating her? I mean, did you ask me about marrying her? Did … I mean, that’s what it is. And then you’ve got to curtail that appetite until you find that that person that will be the potential mate and then behave yourself beforehand.
Michael: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So it … You know, I, I just feel like that’s part of honoring the Lord.
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: And then he honors you and blesses you-
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: … for doing that.
Michael: And, and maybe not like you think. This is not, you know, prosperity gospel, right? But it’s just … No. When I obey, I, I am gonna be blessed.
Jim: Yeah.
Michael: Probably not like I thought with $1 million. But there is a blessing-
Jim: Yeah.
Michael: … there’s a peace, there’s a joy.
John: You know, Michael, as you were speaking, I was thinking about a mindset that we have. And in that, try, try before you buy it mindset of living together. Um, it, it seems like there might be this mindset of, uh, there’s a reason, there’s another reason. Oh…and when they do that, you know, I really am thinking, you know, I’m filling my bucket with reasons that this isn’t gonna work out. Whereas when you’re married, uh, the mindset is, I gotta figure this out.
Michael: Yeah.
John: Um, you think that might be part of, of, uh, some of the challenges?
Michael: A hundred percent. Absolutely.
Jim: What does it mean to be emotionally healthy in Christ so that you can do this in a God-honoring way?
Michael: Mm.
Jim: Um, emotionally healthy in Christ is a … That’s big.
Michael: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, what does that mean? Confidence in Him. Peace in you. Uh, you’re not acting like a squirrel. I mean, you’re not-
Michael: You, you mean like my freshman year?
Jim: Yeah, maybe like your freshman year, I don’t wanna say it that way. But you know, you’re just moving around and-
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: … you know, I, I just as we’re talking, I’m just talking about those, again, twenties, maybe 30 something now because people are marrying a little later.
Michael: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But it’s just that maturity, just settling in.
Michael: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So you do know what you’re wanting. A, you do know you want to get married, you don’t want to do this life single.
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: So the, the point is, begin to act on that. I mean, you’re now an adult. You’ve gotta think through these things so that you’re not acting like a child-
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: … and behaving like a child. But you’re thinking through, what’s my responsibility? Am I emotionally mature in Christ?
Michael: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Wow. That is a good question for a 20 something.
Michael: Yeah. And-
Jim: And if not, how do I get there?
Michael: Yeah. Well, I look at that in my relationship with Julie. If Julie and I would’ve dated freshman year, like not … Actually, we did go out. But not when my roommate was dating her seriously. But if we would’ve dated seriously my freshman year, it would’ve been probably the same train wreck that my roommate encountered dating her. And it wouldn’t have been her, it would’ve been me. Because I told you, I showed up at college like I want a girlfriend. But I got these guy friends that really centered me. They love the Lord, they held me accountable. It wasn’t just holding accountable, obeying the rules. But like, no, just like we’re together working to … So that’s a huge part of that, that maturity that I see so often young adults lacking. And I, I’ll talk about the guys specifically just ’cause for obvious reasons, I’m usually talking to the, you know, the young adult guys individually. And I’m just like, man, you, you aren’t plugged into a church. You, you’re not really known by anybody. Uh, you’re sharing these, uh, deep, dark secrets with me and you’re telling me your best friends don’t know those things. That’s emotional maturity.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Michael: When you have that kind of community that is around you. And it is that community that then made what would’ve been a terrible decision freshman year, let’s date seriously, Julie. To being a really great decision junior year. Because I knew even if things don’t work out with Julie, Yancey, Pete, Fred, Greg, Stewart, my college pastor, Craig, they, I’m, I’m all right with them, I’m good with them. Uh, but also, you know, being disciplined about being with the, with the Lord, being disciplined about spending time with Him, not as an obligation. Well, I mean, maybe as an obligation, just like John, do you, do you have to be disciplined about spending time with your wife? Jim, do you have to be disciplined? Or is it just kinda happen just naturally? Especially with your travel schedule.
Jim: I think that was a trick question.
John: Yeah.
Jim: I think so. So, you know, how do you encourage young people to take, uh, that first step in the preparation for marriage? You know, what … If somebody’s hearing this today going, “Okay, I haven’t really been thinking about it. I’m at Baylor, I’ve dated 30 women my freshman year.” I mean, just roll the clock back.
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: What would the old you-
Michael: Yeah.
Jim: … have heard that would’ve gone, okay, I gotta change what I’m doing?
Michael: Well, if a, any huge endeavor requires going to class, talking to experts, uh, on the job training, I guess experience, if you wanna say it, and reading books. And so I would say to you, if you’re like, uh, I, I wanna do this right. Uh, you … Number one, you don’t have to buy a marriage book. You can buy my book, it’s actually a dating book. But really seriously, uh, read Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas. Read, uh, Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerichs.
Jim: That is the meat of how to do it right.
Michael: Yeah. So reading books, go to classes. I, I … What if young adult guy in, let’s say you’re 30, and what if you went to a marriage seminar and people are like, “Where is your spouse?” And you’re like, “Well, actually, I’m just trying to learn things ahead of time.” And what if those … One of those married couples had a phone with a number in it of a single girl that they were like, “Oh my word, she needs to meet …” No I’m, I’m, I’m joking a little bit. But, but seriously, uh, do some online things. So go to class, um, and talk to experts, uh. Who are the experts? We call them rock stars around Future Marriage University. But people that have been married thirty-plus years that when you look at their marriage, you’re like, “I want that. I want what they have and that … I want what they have.” We’ll talk, take them out to coffee. Uh, find out, you know, how did they get together? What, what mistakes and smart things did they do? And then … And here’s the irony, getting the real-life experience. Usually people think that has to be dating experience. Like, oh, I guess I gotta go out with 30 different girl … No. That’s like experience getting along with your roommates. That’s experience getting along at work. That’s experience making sacrifices at your church so this girl can go on this mission trip because you and your small group sent her. That’s the kind of experience. No, not experience between the sheets. Experience above the sheets where you will live the vast majority of your married life. But learning in those, those contexts of how to have, you know, healthy relationships.
Jim: Yeah.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Well, we’ve covered it. And now you gotta get the book because it’ll cover more. But Michael, thanks so much for being with us today.
Michael: Again, thank you.
Jim: And for those listening, I hope you feel equipped to further develop your relationship with your significant other, whatever stage you’re in. Marriage is such an effective way for us to get closer to God and further the kingdom of God. It is worth the commitment to invest in dating and marriage. And if you’re married already, I hope you’ll share this with your single friends and family members. Michael’s book is such a helpful resource for young people, it’s called Date Like You Know What You’re Doing. Uh, we have copies for you here at Focus on the Family. And when you make a gift of any amount, we’ll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Because of your donations, we’re able to help strengthen hundreds of thousands of marriages every year. So be a part of that and I hope you’ll make a financial gift today.
John: Yeah, donate and get your copy of the book when you call 800 the Letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459 or donate and get the book at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
