Jason: But in the mornings, I was getting up and praying really hard over my business, and God was blessing it, and I was passionate about it, and things were going really well. And then one morning, as I was praying for my business, the Lord convicted me. It was like, are you enjoying your relationship with your wife as much as you’re enjoying what you’re experiencing in business?
John: Well, that’s an admission from Jason Benham describing a turning point in his marriage. And Jason and his wife Tori are with us today to share some simple ideas about how you can transform your relationship with your spouse. Thanks for joining us. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.
Jim: John, we, uh, are having Tori come in today to make sure Jason’s held accountable.
John: (laughs).
Jason: (laughs).
Tori: (laughs).
Jim: I, I just thought, wow-
John: Yeah, you are.
Jim: … it’s always tough to talk about your marriage in front of your wife.
Jason: Mm-hmm. (laughs).
Jim: (laughs).
John: (laughs).
Tori: (laughs).
Jim: But listen-
Tori: It’s true.
Jim: … you guys have done a great job. We’re gonna introduce you properly here. You know, when you look at business organizations, like you were mentioning in that clip, um, you know, we set out strategies. We have goals for CEOs and the founders of companies, and they work diligently to try to be successful, right? There’s a plan, there’s execution, it’s measured, typically, and you’re looking at sales. And then some of us come home and we don’t have that for our marriage. It’s just not, we can’t translate that into the same space, right?
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we struggle with that. I would say I’m guilty of that. I, I don’t really think of a strategic plan for my marriage, and all the ladies went, “What?” But it’s true. And today we want to give you a resource through the Benham’s great book, Marriage A to Z. And yes, we are gonna cover Z today.
John: (laughs).
Jim: And, uh, you know, just to give you the tools that you need in order to make sure you are thinking strategically for your marriage.
John: Yeah, this is gonna be a tune-up program for couples that are doing okay. And, uh, if you’ve got serious relationship issues, do call us. Uh, our number is 800-A-FAMILY, but, uh, the Benham’s are terrific, uh, speakers and coaches, and authors, and they have a podcast called Beauty and Battle.
And today, as Jim said, we’ll be talking about their book, Marriage A to Z, 30 Days to Relational Transformation. And you can find out more about our guests and this book at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Jason and Tori, welcome back to Focus on the Family.
Tori: Thanks so much for having us. We’re excited.
Jason: Yeah, we love being here with you guys.
Jim: Yeah, it’s good to have you. It’s always fun, and I think, you know, when you look at something like this, Marriage A to Z, you must be covering it all. (laughs).
Jason: Yeah. Well, you know, we actually decided to go with 30 principles, but I thought, well, let’s start it from the letter A to the letter Z, but then I realized that’s only 26, (laughs)-
Jim: (laughs).
Jason: … woops! So we had to have-
Tori: Some bonus.
Jason: … add four more.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: A, B, B, C, C, D, D.
Tori: (laughs).
Jason: A to Z plus four.
Jim: Yeah. Okay. This is a little unorthodox, and I know, uh, you know, we’re, we’re gonna get there. But so often when we do something like this, we cover A, we cover B, and we’re pretty much done by D or E.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So I’m gonna start with Z.
Jason: Oh, yeah.
Jim: Just for fun. Let’s go to the end-
Tori: I love it.
Jim: … of your alphabet-
Tori: (laughs).
Jim: … just to grab people. What was Z?
Jason: Z, Z is zeroing in on zanyism.
Jim: I like this already.
Jason: Uh-huh. And so let me, let me say, you know, about the book. We just took 30 principles, relationship principles, and we set it up to where couples can go through it one principle per day with a little exercise at the end to help you strengthen your connection. We got to Z, and I was praying, I was like, what in the world, Z? But then I thought the one thing that we had, didn’t have in the book that really helps couples draw closer together is adding humor into their relationship.
Jim: Yeah. That’s so good.
Jason: That’s what zeroing in on zanyism is all about, like, to be able to have a good laugh. And now brain science is catching up. When you start laughing with somebody, it actually draws you close with the people that you laugh with.
Jim: So it’s a bonding-
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … thing. Wow, that’s interesting.
Jason: It’s really cool.
Jim: That’s really interesting. I hadn’t thought about humor being a bonding agent in relationship, but that’s certainly true for guys.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I don’t know if that’s true for women, Tori.
Tori: Oh, absolutely.
Jim: Really?
Tori: We can’t, we really can’t take ourselves too seriously. Well, we can-
Jim: Yeah. (laughs).
Tori: … but it’s not in our best interest to. (laughs).
Jim: I mean, when you, for guys that jocularity, if I could refer to it that way.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, you were in sports, I played sports, John, did you play sports?
John: A little bit.
Jim: Okay.
John: Not to your-
Jason: Badminton?
Jim: Okay. But that, that humor-
Tori: (laughs).
Jim: … is kinda what binds a team together even. It’s kinda interesting, you know?
Jason: Oh, absolutely.
Jim: Hadn’t thought about it.
Jason: And I remember a time when Tori and I, we were probably what, Tori, say three or four years into marriage, and um, at that point I wasn’t making a lot of money, I didn’t have my own business, and I was kinda cheap to be honest, and was putting the pressure on her, we need to save money and all sorts of things. And we took our young kids to the fair, and uh, I was complaining about how expensive the turkey legs were, and she wanted to get some-
Jim: (laughs). Kind of a downer day for you?
Jason: I know. (laughs). So bad.
Tori: Yes. He was not in the greatest mood. (laughs).
Jason: And I remember, uh, what was it, Tori? It was a $5 bill.
Tori: I’m really, I’m embarrassed that you brought up this story, but-
Jason: Okay. Well …
Tori: … but yes, we were at, we were at the fair, and he was just being so sour about being there. He was like, “Why are we here? We don’t have the money to do this.” And of course, I, like, had dreamed about this moment when we’d have kids, and we can finally go to the fair.
Jim: This is your moment.
Tori: This is my moment!
John: It is.
Tori: Like, our kids finally are at an age where they can kind of enjoy the fair, but it was very hot, and stuffy, and a lot of people, and Jason was not feeling it. And, um, he, he was really complaining about the money. He was like, “Why are we spending money on this?” You know, and you can tell the rest.
Jason: I can tell it tell from there.
John: (laughs).
Jim: (laughs).
John: So I asked her, she needed me to get something for one of the kids. I said, “Well, I’m gonna need five bucks.” And she took $5 out of her bill fold or whatever, and she wadded up and threw it at me. And she-
Jim: That’s awesome.
Jason: But listen, the best part, she said,” Wipe your rear with this.”
Jim: Oh. (laughs).
Tori: I have no idea where it came from.
Jim: I-
Tori: … it was the best thing I could reach for, and I went for it.
Jim: Yeah, you’re trying to make a point.
Tori: Yeah, but we both-
Jim: Did she make it well?
Tori: well-
Jason: She did.
Tori: We both started dying laughing.
Jim: Okay.
Tori: Because it was like where did that even come from? (laughs).
Jason: And the reason I bring that story –
Jim: Frustration-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … expectation.
Tori: But the words, like what?
Jason: Why would she even say that? Now, the reason I bring that up is because now 25 years later, every now and then we’ll get into an argument or a tiff. She might, or I might, we might say something like, “Wipe your rear end with this.”
Jim: (laughs).
Tori: It’s, it’s kind of our way to be like –
Jason: It stops it.
Tori: … okay, enough.
Jim: It cuts through the cloth.
Tori: It does.
John: I thought you were gonna say you take a $5 bill out of your wallet-
Jason: (laughs).
John: … you roll it up and-
Tori: Yeah.
John: … smack the other one with it.
Jason: I Venmo her five bucks.
Tori: (laughs). Yeah.
Jim: Hey, you’ve been married for 20 plus years. Just to, you know, kind of set the stage for everybody. We’ve done a very intimate job at that already.
Tori: Yeah. (laughs).
Jason: It’s great.
Jim: But, um, let’s, uh, go back to when you met and, you know, sometimes people say love at first sight. And did that happen for you guys?
Jason: Well, um, we were really good friends at first sight.
Jim: Okay. (laughs).
Jason: Uh, but then the love came about a year later.
Jim: Wow. That’s interesting.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Yeah. It was fantastic. But, which I love that we had a solid friendship. But then that year later, I saw her, and I was in Bluefield, West Virginia playing for the Baltimore Orioles short season rookie ball team. And her and her family came to visit me, and she got out of the car, and it was like, all of a sudden everything went in slow motion. The wind started blowing, her hair started going back. And I knew at that moment that she needed me.
Jim: (laughs).
Jason: That she could not live without me.
Tori: (laughs).
Jim: Now, this is what’s so fun about having the spouse here. So Tori, did you have that same feeling?
Tori: (laughs).
Jim: Or did you see Jason in his uniform and go, “Oh, that’s the guy for me”?
Tori: I did. I, I-
Jim: Oh.
Tori: It was kind of a love at first sight that season, or that particular game. For us, it was kinda like, wow, I see you in a different light, he saw me in a different light. And we were, you know, it was the beginning of something for sure. And actually the first letter A in this book is Appreciate to attract.
Jason: Appreciate to attract.
Jim: To attract. I … yeah.
Tori: Um, and you know, when you’re, when you’re dating, and when you first meet, there’s that initial attraction, and it comes through appreciation, right? I appreciate the way that you are, I appreciate the way you look. Or there’s all these things that I-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tori: … appreciated in Jason that I could see that I was really, you know, drawn to. And I, uh, that attraction produced a- appreciation, but it’s kinda like what comes first, the chicken or the egg with appreciation and attraction. They go hand-in-hand, you know?
Jim: I think it’s the visual thing.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, Dr. Dobson used to talk about that. I mean, it starts with that attraction-
Jason: Yeah, attraction.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: … being visual, and then eventually it’s touch, you know, holding a hand.
Tori: Yeah, exactly.
Jim: And then eventually, it’s the kiss.
Jason: Oh, yeah.
Tori: Exactly.
Jim: Whenever that might be, but that’s the normal progression. But you have to notice each other first.
Tori: Exactly. So true.
Jason: That’s why I think before marriage, attraction leads to appreciation. So I’m, I was attracted to Tori, right? So then we started talking. Now it’s like, oh I appreciate your personality. And it’s like so attraction-
Jim: Oh, that was good. That was good. Go to the personality.
Tori: (laughs).
Jason: It’s very good right there? Thank you, Jim.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: But you know what?
Jim: Good coaching.
Jason: After marriage, it’s reversed.
Tori: Right.
Jason: Appreciation now leads to attraction.
Jim: Ah.
Jason: Because after marriage-
Jim: That’s good.
Jason: … the more you think about the things that you appreciate about your spouse, the more attracted you’ll be. And when appreciation is the genesis for your attraction, it’s so much deeper.
Tori: Mm.
Jim: You know, in that regard, and this is just a general question. I don’t think you covered this in the book, but there’s, there’s scientific data that shows that-
Tori: Yes.
Jim: … that bonding that we’re talking about is p- partly in this area of attraction.
Jason: Oh, yeah.
Jim: But it lasts, you might call it infatuation.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But there’s a, a time limit on that. It, it can last from six months to two years.
Jason: Right.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: That’s why marriages that start hot-
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … in terms of that attraction can grow cold rather quickly.
Jason: That’s right.
Jim: And you’re going, “What happened?”
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Because it was built on infatuation.
Tori: Right.
Jason: That’s right.
Tori: Right.
Jim: Not, not deeper things.
Tori: Yeah, exactly.
Jason: And the way to get past that is appreciation.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: Because what appreciation does, when you focus on gratitude, it’s like when we read Psalm 100, uh, where it says, “Enter My gates with thanksgiving and My courts with praise.”
Jim: Yes.
Jason: It’s like gates and courts. Well, that’s a picture of the temple where God’s presence was. We start with thanksgiving to God, and we, it ushers us into His presence where His power is.
Tori: Mm.
Jason: Now incorporate that into your relationships. If you think appreciative thoughts and thoughts of gratitude and thankfulness towards your spouse, and you just randomly think those things, what happens is your brain releases a, a hormone called oxytocin, and dopamine. Dopamine is a feel-good chemical, oxytocin is a bonding chemical. The person that you’re thinking thankful thoughts toward bond- it bonds you to them. And when you express those thoughts, it releases oxytocin and dopamine in their brains and bonds them to you.
Tori: Mm.
Jason: So God is giving us a little relationship hack right there saying-
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … look, you wanna draw close to Me and Me to you? Start with thanksgiving. Oh, and you wanna try that in your marriage? Watch what happens.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: And that’s how appreciation can lead you to a deeper level of attraction than you’ve ever felt before.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We had a guest on that made that recommendation, if you, you know, just to improve your marital situation, just give your spouse three compliments.
Jason: Mm.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: So good.
Jim: You know, three things a day-
Tori: Yes.
Jim: … and you will watch her or him begin to blossom. I thought, “Oh, that’s really good.”
Tori: That is so good.
Jim: I’m aiming at that. Jean’s listening, I’m sure, (laughs). I got the report card coming.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: But, you know, that’s a great way to go. And-
Jason: Jim, you look nice today, you’re handsome, and have a great personality.
Jim: You’ve already won me over.
Jason: There’s your three compliments.
Jim: (laughs).
Tori: And you feel bonded to Jason.
Jim: Tori, let me, let me ask you this. Um, you’re a mom of four, you’re busy. It sounds like you guys pretty much do traditional roles. And we know that in households today that can be divided up and not just, not mom does the chores-
Tori: Right.
Jim: … and I get that. But one particular night, I think, you went for a walk.
Tori: Mm.
Jim: And you felt overwhelmed as a mom of four.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: And I’m sure they were little at the time.
Tori: Yes, yeah.
Jim: And it’s like that’s a season. There’s moms listening and watching on YouTube that are going, “I’m in that season right now.”
Tori: Yes. Yes.
Jim: How did you feel, what did the walk do for you-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … and how did you have a touch of blessing afterward?
Tori: Yeah. Well, this, this was a season where the Lord was really trying to teach me that He is my source. And I think for, uh, for me, early on in our relationship, I began to really look to Jason as a source of my happiness, as a source of, you know, my help. There were so many things I began to expect from him that I, the Lord really needed to get, help me to get to a place where I saw Him as my source, and not Jason as my source. And so, um, I remember that day we talked about it in this book, where I was just having a really stressful time with the kids. We were home- I was homeschooling at the time.
Jim: Let’s just throw that on. (laughs).
Tori: Yeah.
John: Oh, geeze.
Jim: But good for you.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: I, I applaud you for homeschooling.
Tori: Thank you, yeah.
Jason: She did it for 12 years with four kids.
Jim: Yeah. Good for you. I bet your kids are solid.
Tori: (laughs). And, um, so I, I’m just trying to kind of unwind. And I remember I, Jason came home from work and I said, “I just need some space to like, get my thoughts together. I’m really struggling.” And I just went for a walk, and I remember the Lord just really speaking to me about that He is the one, He is my source. He’s my source of contentment. He’s my source of joy. And as I’m taking this walk and I’m like, okay, Lord, well, if you’re my source, then I’m going to surrender to You. I’m gonna trust You that I can do this. Like right now, I do not feel like I can do this another day. I don’t feel like I have the capacity. I don’t feel like I even have the tools to do all that You have asked me to do. But if You are my source, and I’m gonna trust You … And it was just this kind of act of surrender through this walk. And I walked into the house, and Jason had cleaned up the kitchen for me. Without me saying a word.
Jim: Way to go.
John: Yeah, buddy. (laughs).
Tori: And it was just this, like, really beautiful moment for both Jason I, and the Lord, to where I’m like, I know that was the Lord putting it on Jason’s heart. The Lord is my source. He then used Jason to meet a need in me, but I saw it as the Lord. I saw it as God.
Jim: You, you said, okay, Lord, I’ll put it on You.
Tori: Yeah. And it was kind of a pivotal time for me to where I was like, when, that, you know, I don’t have to put all these expectations on Jason. I can expect God to show up when He, when e needs to show up.
Jim: Mm. That’s a very hard thing to get to, though.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean really. I think expectations in marriage are probably the most difficult.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: ‘Cause they’re, they’re just that, they’re expectations. And when you don’t fulfill that for your spouse-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … it’s like bam, it’s a-
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: … it’s a hit to the face.
Tori: It is.
Jim: It feels like, like I thought you were gonna do this. I would say most arguments in marriage are built around expectations that aren’t fulfilled.
Tori: So true. Yes.
Jim: And so, you know, I, that’s really good counsel.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: I’ve heard the, the definition that e- disappointment is the gap between expectation-
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … and reality.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: And we just read a quote, I forget who it was by, but replace expectation with appreciation, and you’ll see your relationships blossom.
Tori: Yeah, we actually started out the chapter, um, appreciate to attract with trade, um, expectation for-
Jason: With appreciation.
Tori: … with appreciation, and watch your world change.
Jim: Wow, that’s a good one too.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: Let’s, uh, let’s talk about cookie dough.
Jason: Oh.
Jim: Is everybody happy?
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: All the audience happy about cookie dough?
Jason: (laughs).
Tori: (laughs).
Jason: Yeah, I like some cookie dough.
Jim: Now, Jean is a big raw cookie dough eater.
Jason: Yeah, me too.
Jim: I, I couldn’t quite get there-
Tori: Jason is too.
Jim: … I like the baked kinda cookie dough.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: But speak to the cookie dough analogy.
Jason: Okay, the cookie dough. The cookie dough analogy, well, you know, it’s all about conflict.
Jim: So this is C?
Jason: Yeah, it’s C. It’s all about conflict, because conflict is meant for connection. Conflict is something we don’t need to run away from-
Jim: Mm.
Jason: … we actually need to run toward it. Um, conflict is the opportunity to turn me into we. And why we use cookie dough as an analogy is it’s just a fantastic analogy for how you can just do some amazing things with different ingredients. So just think about cookie dough for a second. Tori makes these amazing ranger cookies.
Jim: Okay, I’m looking forward to one.
John: Ranger cookie?
Tori: (laughs).
Jason: So, but it’s basically chocolate chip cookies with some oats in it, but it’s all, you know, Kamut flour, and coconut sugar.
Tori: Organic ingredients.
Jim: Mm.
Jason: All the stuff that’s good.
Jim: You should have brought them this time.
Tori: Yeah. (laughs).
Jason: So, if you think about flour, sugar, vanilla, oats-
Tori: Right.
Jason: … the chocolate chip, all that kinda stuff-
Tori: Eggs.
Jason: … all those different things that you put into cookie dough, if you have those ingredients each individually, you’ve never taken like a spoonful of flour and gone, “Mm, that flour tastes really good.” Or take a spoonful of the sugar and be like, “Wow, that, that sugar, that’s amazing sugar.” No, no, no. You have to blend them together first.
John: Mm.
Jason: You have to put them into the bowl, and you have to blend them together. And you bring in what’s called the bonding agent, which is eggs. Now all of a sudden, you can dip your spoon in there and take a bite, and you’ve tasted something really good. The bowl represents conflict. God is the baker. The eggs is the Holy Spirit. God takes two individuals, completely different from each other, me and Tori couldn’t be more different-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … and puts us into the bowl of conflict and says, “Now, if you guys yield to the Holy Spirit, let Me do My thing. I know this is uncomfortable now, but what’s gonna come out on the other side is gonna nourish people.”
Tori: Mm.
Jason: And once we, uh, recognize that conflict is meant to take you from me and turn you into we that can actually help and bless other people, changes the ballgame of conflict.
Jim: Wow, I’m feeling like a lazy cookie eater right now.
John: (laughs).
Jim: I could never give it that much thought. That’s amazing-
Tori: (laughs).
Jim: … getting that spiritual depth out of cookie dough.
John: There you go, Jim.
Jason: But next time you and Jean-
Jim: Next time.
Jason: … have any conflict-
Jim: I’m gonna make a batch of cookies.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: This weekend is cookie, spiritual cookie time.
Tori: Yeah. (laughs).
John: We’re gonna have Tori’s ranger cookie recipe online.
Tori: Okay.
John: We’ll have details about their great book.
Tori: Yes, it’s a great one.
Jason: Yeah.
John: Marriage A to Z, 30 Days to Relational Transformation, and a free marriage assessment for you. While you’re eating your cookies, you can take this and learn more about where your strong and maybe opportunities to grow in your relationship. All of it at FocusontehFamily.com/broadcast.
And Jason and Tori, I understand you didn’t, from the book, that you did not have, uh, really any conflict in your dating relationship.
Tori: (laughs).
Jason: No.
Tori: None whatsoever.
Jim: Join the crowd. Who did? (laughs).
John: It didn’t happen ’til you had kids at the fair.
Jim: Happy times.
Jason: Isn’t that funny?
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: You know, before you get married, you tend to focus on what’s right with your fiancé, or girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever. But then after you get married, you tend to focus on what’s wrong. And that’s such a problem.
Jim: (laughs). It’s okay you cut my hair off; I didn’t really need it anyway. (laughs).
Jason: Yeah, I didn’t really need that little buzz cut.
Tori: (laughs).
Jason: I remember being on our honeymoon, and we learned three days in after being married what conflict was all about.
Jim: Oh, do tell.
Jason: We went on a trip, and I didn’t realize that Tori needed, you know, basically to, have you guys ever watched the Titanic when the girl packed all those trunks and stuff-
Jim: Yes. (laughs).
Jason: … for the trip? Like, Tori had packed a massive suitcase full of stuff. And I’m like, we don’t really need it, it’s a three day, you know, cruise that we’re going on or whatever. We kinda had a little disagreement there.
Jim: She’s giving you the look.
Tori: To my, to my credit, I didn’t know where we were going. He just said, “Pack.”
Jim: Oh.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Um-
Jim: That right there says a lot of shoes.
Tori: Yeah, so how, yeah, how am I to know-
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: … what to pack?
Jason: Okay. It was a rookie mistake-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … for a guy. I’ve, I’ve since learned not to do that.
Jim: (laughs).
Jason: But we kind of were bickering a little bit throughout that, that entire trip. She got a little seasick, I should have checked does she get seasick before I booked the cruise-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … and all of this. And so now this, I’m missing my steak and lobster dinner. I mean how-
Jim: This is day three.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Yeah, so-
Tori: Expectations are going out the window quick.
Jim: (laughs).
Jason: So now it’s time for us to pack up, and uh, leave the boat, and we start packing up, and I’m slowly but surely growing more and more frustrated at the fact that I have to put all of these clothes in this suitcase. And she said something to me like, “Let me put the suitcase together, I’ll, I’ll pack it up.” And I actually took the suitcase, I said, “Fine, here”, and I threw it across the room.
Tori: He slung it.
Jim: Open?
John: Oh.
Jason: Open.
John: Oh.
Jason: Yeah. I didn’t throw it at her, but I threw it across the room. And I knew right there at that moment that I was the idiot-
Tori: (laughs).
Jason: … and that she was-
Jim: This is still day three, or-
Jason: This is-
Jim: … day seven?
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: This went into, this was probably day seven.
Jim: (laughs). Tori, I gotta ask you-
Tori: The honeymoon’s over. (laughs).
Jim: You, you see this luggage, and all your clothes flying out of it.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: What are you thinking?
Tori: Oh, I was just so upset. I was just, you know, who, who’s this man that I married? He’s, he’s, this is not the man-
Jim: Crazy.
Tori: … from three days ago, right?
Jim: He’s throwing luggage at the around.
John: Careful.
Jim: (laughs).
Tori: Yes. Yeah.
Jim: Careful.
Tori: And what we learned very quickly through conflict is that we wanted agreement. We wanted, I wanted him to agree with me, I wanted him to understand why I felt the way I felt, why I packed, why can’t he just understand and agree that that was the right decision, right?
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: And he wants me to agree with him that that was the worst decision you could do, now we have to drag this thing from A to B, and all these places, and that wasn’t w- like, that was a bad decision, don’t you agree with me? But we didn’t agree.
Jim: Hmm.
Tori: And so what we had to learn, um, and it took us years to learn, is, was that to try to seek understanding.
Jim: Not agreement.
Tori: That if I … Not agreement-
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: … but understanding. Like, okay, let me just, let me just think about what y- you know, how to see it from your perspective. Why don’t you see it from my perspective? And we don’t have to agree on anything-
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: … but let’s just try to be curious and, and understand each other a little bit.
Jim: Yeah. Let me ask you this, and I think … Again, this is coming from my experience, and Jean, Jean and I.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But it felt like when we were learning this, and I’m not saying we’ve graduated from the school of marriage, but the one thing it felt like, and as I’ve talked to other men, women take this very personally.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: The agreement is more than just agreeing with me.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Because if there’s disagreement, it reflects upon me.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: Like somehow, I’m deficient.
Tori: Yes. That is true.
Jim: And, and we’re going, it’s only dinner.
Tori: Yeah. (laughs).
Jim: You know? (laughs). You know-
Tori: Exactly.
Jim: … we just don’t agree on what we might eat tonight for dinner.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: But there seems to be like this ability of women that … And I think it’s an amazing thing, women look to themselves first far more than men.
Tori: Mm.
Jim: Like where have I blown it?
Tori: Yes.
Jim: How have I let him down?
John: True.
Jim: There’s, you just have a better capacity to looking at the log in your own eye.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, women do that very well. Men don’t.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: We got ego galore, right? So, so that, how’d you de-personalize that-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … to where you could have n- not have agreement and still be okay with Jason?
Tori: Yeah. I, I think that for, for us women, sometimes there’s a lot of guilt and shame involved.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tori: And I think for me personally, I had to really get to the bottom of that. Like, there’s, this, just because Jason doesn’t agree with me on the situation, doesn’t mean that I am now shamed or have a reason to feel guilty. It’s like we’re just different. And really, it’s just not taking myself so seriously, right?
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: Like, that everything is, you know, we do have this tendency to, like, to kinda put it back on, oh, what did I do wrong? No, you know what, we’re just, this is just a difference of opinion, we’re different, and we can move on. And it’s kinda just making that pivot more quickly. I think when we first got married, that pivot took a long time. You know, it took a long time for me to be like it’s not that big of a deal, we just see things differently. And I don’t need him to agree with me to feel confident in what I’m, in my decision and what I’m doing. And as we began, as I began to grow, I think, and to be able to let go of that, it’s like we make that pivot much more quickly-
Jim: Mm.
Tori: … and now where we are almost 25 years, and it’s like now we’re, we’ve gotten better and better at pivoting.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: And what I’ve learned is that I have to, as the, as the husband, I have to look at the feeling and not the fact.
Tori: Mm.
Jason: Right?
Jim: (laughs).
Jason: And so what-
Jim: We’re hard on facts.
Jason: Right. So I’m, I’m, I’m looking, okay, what is she feeling? Regardless of whether or not there’s no logic involved-
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … the fact is, is that, um, I have to make sure that I get curious, not convincing. And as guys, that’s a hard thing, ’cause I’m a really good convincer.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: I can out-argue anybody. Jim, I’d like to-
Jim: It’s your skillset.
Jason: … I’d like to get into an argument with you after this-
Jim: It’d be fun.
Tori: (laughs).
Jason: … and show you how I could dominate you.
Jim: (laughs).
Jason: But I, I can’t be-
Jim: I was thinking the same thing.
Jason: Yeah. (laughs). I can’t be convincing, I need to be curious, because I need to seek to understand her more than to try to get her agreement. And once you understand that, then it really helps you with conflict.
Jim: But, Tori, I appreciate the honesty of that. That’s a process in maturing-
Tori: Yeah, it is.
Jim: … in your marriage. I think especially, again, not to take things personal.
Tori: Mm.
Jim: ‘Cause it all feels so personal.
Tori: It does.
Jim: And when you can relax that and find a better place to be to receive-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … those comments, that’s a, a healthier place to be.
Tori: And you free yourself up when you can-
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: … let go of those things quicker.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: You’re like wow, I feel free.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: She’s even said before that sometimes she would love if just women learned how to take these things like men in the locker room-
Jim: (laughs).
Jason: … where they can say things about each other or whatever, and they just get over it real quick.
Jim: Yeah, I would say on behalf of women nothing gets done. (laughs).
Jason: (laughs). That is true.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: All we’d do is agree to do something that we won’t do.
Tori: But I think it’s a matter of practice. I think if we look at it as practice. If women say, “You know what, I’m gonna practice that. I’m gonna practice pivoting more quickly.” And when Jason does something, I’m not actually gonna take it so seriously, I’m not gonna take it so personally, I’m gonna practice. And then you get one win under your belt, and you’re like, oh, I did it. I was able to, to, to change my thinking and that really worked well for our relationship, I’m gonna practice again.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: I think we get overwhelmed when we think we have all these changes to make, and how are we gonna do it? No, just one, one step at a time, one practice session at a time.
Jim: Yeah, that’s good.
Jason: In our coaching, we tell the, the husband, try to feel like your wife, try to feel like your wife, and wife, try to think like your husband. And just that little pivot right there can help her snap out of things a little quicker, ’cause that’s what guys do, and it can help him dig a little deeper, ’cause that’s what women naturally do.
John: What a wonderful conversation today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Our guests are Jason and Tori Benham, and they’re talking about their book, Marriage A to Z, 30 Days to Relational Transformation. This is such good stuff, Jim, and it’s so practical.
Jim: I agree, John. And we all need good reminders like this to increase the fun in our marriages, and bring down levels of conflict, and find ways to bond together. As husband and wife. Here at Focus on the Family, we wanna help you do that. Uh, we’ve got lots of resources for you, like our counseling team, and our online marriage assessment, and the Benham’s book. If you can send a gift of any amount to the ministry, uh, we’ll put that into your hands as our way of saying thank you. And right now, uh, you have an opportunity to be part of our marriage building team. Some generous friends are willing to match any gift you send, which means you’re giving will have twice the impact. Five dollars becomes 10, 10, 20, and so on, helping us strengthen more marriages, rescue more hurting couples, and deliver more hope and joy to families as we head into the holidays.
John: And God is doing remarkable things through this ministry. Jim, we’ve been here, both of us, a long time.
Jim: (laughs).
John: And he continues to do tremendous work in people’s lives. Uh, we heard from a woman named Barbara, who said, “I know your magazine articles and podcasts over the years have made me a more Godly wife and mother.” And uh, she’s sharing our content, uh, with her daughter, who is now married. And Barbara said, “I told her Focus on the Family resources are like marriage and family vitamins.”
Jim: I like that, marriage and family vitamins.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Let’s work together to dispense these, uh, spiritual vitamins out to as many couples and families as possible. And let’s see what God will do to transform our culture. And John, I wanna reiterate the fact, I think Focus is having its greatest impact right now. The numbers are great, over 290,000 decisions for Christ just in the last 12 months. Be part of it.
John: Yeah, donate today when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or make that contribution online and double your gift, and get the book by Jason and Tori called, Marriage A to Z. It’s all at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
And join us again tomorrow, when we have an insightful conversation about parenting adult children who are prodigals.
Mary DeMuth: If I do all the right things, at the other end I’m gonna be guaranteed this Christ following child who never questions and has an amazing life. And, uh, that doesn’t always happen because we birthed people with free will.
John: Mm.
