John Fuller: Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, Pastor Gary Thomas, who is gonna help you protect your marriage from an affair, which starts with infatuation.
Gary Thomas: We know from neuroscience, infatuations last about 12 to 18 months. Am I gonna put my life at risk, my family at risk, my kid’s security at risk for something that is relatively so short?
John: Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, we have a fascinating message to share with our listeners today about the very small steps that can lead to an extramarital affair. This message was given at a recent conference that we hosted for pastors, but it is applicable to anyone. And single folks before you tune out consider this, you don’t wanna be on the receiving end of this kind of attention from a married person. So Gary’s message will tell you what to watch out for too. Some of the steps that he’ll outline can seem like they’re not that big of a deal, but they are part of a trend that’s going a certain direction. Gary is a good friend. He’s on the teaching team just up the road here at Cherry Hills Community Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. He’s the author of 20 books, and the one that relates to today’s content is called Making Your Marriage a Fortress: Strengthening Your Marriage to Withstand Life’s Storms.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the book is endorsed as a must-read by marriage experts. It’s really valuable. Get a copy from us here at Focus on the Family where the proceeds go right back into ministry, and you’ll find it at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. Here now, Pastor Gary Thomas. And as you said, Jim, he was speaking at a pastor’s conference that was hosted here at Focus on the Family.
Gary: Let, let me start with this one question. How many infatuations, that is extramarital attraction, it’s not just physical attraction, but combined with feelings, how many infatuations will the average married person experience if they’ve been married 50 to 60 years, a course of a lifetime, how many? Aveda Offit was a Jewish counselor sort of pioneered in relational counseling and as sexual therapy and whatnot. She suggested that the average person married 50 to 60 years will experience five to six extramarital infatuations during the course of that marriage. Now, I’ll admit that seems high to me. Uh, my wife and I have been married 41 years. My wife would say she’s only experienced one. It was a little hurtful because a guy had a ponytail. And when your husband is bald, I think there should be some standards that you hold up there.
Um, for me, there were two, and one was early on in our marriage, we had a very, uh, colicky baby. I was completely caught by surprise because I thought, “Something must be wrong with my marriage. How could this be happening?” You think, “Well, did I marry the wrong person or is my marriage just dead? How could that be going on?” Nobody had ever brought the topic up, and I was caught blindsided. And I really think with this issue, to be forewarned is to be forearmed. And so I thought… There, there was never any physical contact at all. I’m not saying that to excuse anything because guys, for a lot of women, emotional connection is far more hurtful than even a physical connection. But because of that, I was fooling myself, fortunately, married a great woman. I thought, well, I’m gonna invite her over to dinner and then everything will be okay, right, ’cause I wouldn’t do that if I was thinking anything untoward was going on.
But Lisa was smart enough after she left, Lisa looks at me and she said, intently, “Do you have feelings for her?” And I said, “Why would you say that?” Which is the easiest way to lie, right? You never answer it. Why would you say that? And our world shattered when Lisa says, “Because you look at her like you used to look at me.” And it was like God just pulled away the blinders. And I saw, oh, I got myself into a mess. I credit some solid friends. I’ve had better friends than a Christian man could ever deserve over the course of a lifetime. Three really solid friends that just stepped in, “Okay, Gary, we’re in charge now.” I credit my wife. I even credit the other woman. I credit everybody but me. I think everybody but me handled. I so wish I could say to everybody like Paul did, “Follow me as I follow Christ.”
But so often my books come about from me really messing up and me telling people, “This is how not to mess up like I did.” But after that scare, a number of years passed before the second one happened. And it wasn’t a big deal at all because I was forewarned, I realized what was happening. It was one, we didn’t live in the same place. We just clicked at a conference. Lisa wasn’t traveling with me at that time. I came home. I didn’t even immediately share it with Lisa. I was in a great accountability group. I shared it with the guys. They were following up with me every month, “No contact? Everything’s fine? You’re good with the elevator? I go, “Yep, everything’s fine.” And it just died a really quick death. And the reason was I knew what to look out for. I knew how to handle it.
And it was just a blip on the screen. And there hasn’t been another one in 25 years. We talked last night about going on the offense, how to build spiritual intimacy by serving God together. But tonight, or this morning, I should say, it’s about playing spiritual defense, recognizing the possibility that we could all fall into this and knowing how to handle it. And here’s what I wanna say as a pastor, feelings can be real and not significant. We know from neuroscience, infatuations last about 12 to 18 months. That’s about as long as they last, and they fade right away. And infatuation at 13 months is demonstrably weaker than an infatuation at six months. Am I gonna put my life at risk, my family at risk, my kid’s security at risk for something that is relatively so short? And I’ve seen the… It is like soap bubbles of pleasure.
As a pastor for so long, I’ve seen this time and time again. One woman, she believes she had a call. She was excited about this new work. Her husband just kind of thought it was her little plaything, didn’t take it seriously, never asked her questions about it, wasn’t supportive. And so she’s working with this other guy in the nonprofit who says, “Oh, this is brilliant. You’re so wonderful. This is incredible.” She’s getting all of this attention that she wasn’t getting from her husband, was something that she believed was really important for her. It was a really good calling. And it got lifted up and up and up until he became larger than life, because he was everything her husband wasn’t. And they shared the same passion. It was the mission bringing them together. And she knew she shouldn’t have done this. They were away at a conference, she finally gave in.
He wooed her. They slept together. And immediately, immediately after, it was one of the saddest things I ever heard. It was, “I woke up and he was just a dude in my bed. It’s like, what happened? He was larger than life. I gave in, and he’s just a dude in my bed. And I realized the problem that would be resulting from this.” And it did. It took her marriage months and months and months to deal with that 30 minute lapse. And men, I’ve seen these guys with women, they, they feel ignored. They feel down. They’re, they’re tired. They just want an escape. And this woman presents herself as an angel of light. She feels like she’s everything he needs. I’ve talked to so many, and this is so sad. They feel like she’s an angel. And so they go way too far with this angel.
And suddenly they tell me she turns into a demon. “She’s trying to destroy my family. She’s trying to destroy my ministry.” I’m like, “Well, you kinda destroyed that. (laughs) Let’s keep agency where it belongs.” But I’ve seen it time again, Satan presents this thing as a solution, as an escape, as a fun vacation. And it becomes a hurricane nightmare that people try to escape from. We have to look at this as Christians. There’s two verses I want us to look at. The first one might make half the people here upset. I, I don’t shy away from any scripture. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. If God said it, I believe we read it. So Ephesians 5:22. And then Ephesians 5:25. “Wives, submit to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.” Now, I’m not telling you how to interpret submit. I’m not gonna go into that.
I wanna focus on the second part, “As you do to the Lord.” Paul says, “Wives, however you’re looking at your marriage, it’s a reflection of your relationship with the Lord.” That’s the part I want you to focus on. And then we go to Ephesians 5:25. “Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her.” And so from a Christian perspective, our attitude has to be this. I must be as faithful to my spouse as God is faithful to me. I must be as committed to my spouse as Christ is committed to the church. Do we agree with that? Now, I don’t want this to ignore the four A’s. I know there are divorced people in ministry and divorced people in the room, maybe divorced people watching. Jesus talks about adultery. Paul adds abandonment. I have written about real marital abuse where I think that can end a marriage.
I have a friend of mine, I’m not defending this, I’m not attacking it. We don’t have time to get into it. He would put addiction. He calls it the four A’s. There are things I’ve recognized that your spouse can do to end your marriage. But from my perspective, I must not do anything to cause my spouse to have a reason to leave me. The best defense is a good offense, which is why I wanna spend just a couple minutes on that. Uh, my wife and I loved having kids. We have three. We wish we could have had more. There are reasons why we didn’t… And then one summer, they all kinda came back. And so the master bedroom was on the bottom floor right where everybody would hang out. And we’d been empty nesters for a while. We could enjoy being physically intimate whenever we wanted to.
And now for the summer, we had three kids that stayed up later than we did and were always outside the door. And it just isn’t quite as fun. If you’re trying to think, “Oh, man, are they gonna know? This is so embarrassing.” So after five or six weeks of this, Lisa and I just didn’t wanna have to be quiet or to stay up late or anything. So I said, “Why don’t we just go to a hotel?” There was a hotel just about a mile and a half away from us. So we go and we walk into the hotel and there’s a woman in front of the counter who looks like she’s checking in and she sees us. And she goes, “Why don’t you go ahead?” I said, “Oh, no, we’re not in a hurry. You, you go ahead. I don’t wanna…” “No, no, no. I insist, you go ahead.”
Okay. And I go up. And I haven’t been asked this question for years. And I don’t know why she asked, “Now, now, what’s your address?” I’m like, “Oh, man.”
Congregation: (laughs)
Gary: We’re just a mile and a half down the road. You go. I mean, it’s kinda obvious what’s going on. We didn’t have a lot of luggage.
Congregation: (laughs)
Gary: “Um, all right, well, breakfast starts at 8:00.” “Yeah, we’re not gonna need that.”
Congregation: (laughs)
Gary: I mean, it just, it was just, we didn’t have any luggage. It was really getting embarrassing. I’m just like, “Please, just give me the key.” I could tell Lisa’s getting embarrassed. She finally gives us the room key. And then I take the key and the woman who had stepped back immediately steps forward. “Pastor Gary, my kids just love it when you preach. I mean, they just clap when they f-” And Lisa’s now turning red. And this isn’t gonna be romance, this is gonna be homicide when we get up there.
Congregation: (laughs)
Gary: And it was embarrassing. But, but here’s the thing I still will hold to. I would much rather be caught having an affair with my wife than having one with yours.
Congregation: (laughs)
Gary: And if we gotta go away to keep things going in those seasons of life, I just think it’s a wise thing to do. And there will be seasons. Maybe you’re much younger, you’ve got babies and there’s sickness and there’s things where things just can’t happen. And I just think it’s always dangerous in ministry to ever just say, “We can’t do everything, so we’re just not gonna try to address it all. We’re not gonna have any interludes. We’re not gonna try to do it.” A, a friend of mine, uh, he was a bodybuilder. He could bench press 400 pounds. He, uh, was just an amazing athlete. Three years after they were married, diagnosed with MS. And it progressed pretty quickly with him. And his wife married him ’cause she liked how strong he was, and he could protect her and he could carry in all the groceries. And three years in their marriage, he starts to go downhill where he is using a cane and then a walker, and then a wheelchair, and now motorized chair.
And he told me about their nighttime ritual when he could wheel his chair up to their bed. And he’s still strong enough to get his torso on the bed, but he can’t move his legs over. Stacy has to come and do that. He said, “One time, Gary, I was feeling sorry for myself. Like, who am I fooling? I should just let Stacy do everything. What does it matter if I just lift my torso up?” But he said, “I, I, I think I can only do about 20% of what I used to be able to do, but God has convicted me that I will do 100% of the 20% I’m able to do.” And I love that in every aspect of marriage. Time can make physical intimacy difficult. But will we do 100% of the 20% we’re able to do? I think it’s one of the wisest things we can do to play defense is to say, first, we’re not gonna stop playing offense. But then I do wanna focus the rest of it on playing defense.
Since that emotional affair I had, I gave Lisa a veto over every relationship I have, any Facebook friend, anybody I spend time with, because we want the same thing. I wanna love her as Christ loves the church. I wanna be as committed to her as Christ is committed to me. And if she sees something that I don’t, I’ve already years ago shown myself not to be the most astute observer, I’m going to listen to her. Now, God has done a lot of healing. I, I think there’s only one woman in a ministry situation where Lisa just told me, “Gary, I just, I just want you to be careful with her.” I’m like, “Okay, fine. Sure.” “I don’t think you should ever meet with her alone.” I go, “Right, I got it. That’s fine.” She said, “And if I die, I don’t want you to marry her.”
Congregation: (laughs)
Gary: I’m like, “Okay. I’m not sure where that came from, but I will, I will do that.”
Congregation: (laughs)
Gary: Um, I’ve worked with couples that are going through this with my own experience, and I’ll really be strongly urging complete transparency. And I had one husband who had this relationship with a woman at work that his wife had some understandable concerns with. And he agreed that he would not contact her outside of work. And then she found out, he had texted her, she’s really hurt. And we’re talking like, “Why are you doing this?” He said, “Well, if I s- completely cut things off with my friend, it will hurt her.” I said, “Yes, it will. And if you don’t, it will hurt your wife. Who are you married to? Who are you committed to? And what decision are you gonna make?” I said, “You will never have an intimate marriage if your wife doesn’t feel safe. And your wife can’t feel safe if you agree not to be contacting someone and you go ahead and do it.”
In the book, Making Your Marriage a Fortress, I tell the story of Terry and David who went through an affair because I found it to be, it, it opened my eyes as to the dynamics of what could happen. They weren’t walking with the Lord at the time. They admitted when they got together, it was purely physical. They were all over each other. They got married right away, started having kids right away. And if lust held your marriage together and now just a few years later, you have a baby and a toddler, it’s not gonna hold your marriage together (laughs) anymore because life’s situation is just gonna make that a very different relationship. With more mouths to feed, Terry, um, I’m sorry, David knew he had to work more. He’s a salesman. To work more, he had to be out on the road more. Terry was also working. So she kind of resented the fact that she was left alone ’cause he would travel far away.
They weren’t communicating. They both felt the frustrations of marriage. They had no pleasures of marriage. Neither one wanted to be the one that pulled the trigger to get a divorce, but they were miserable together. And it was out of that long term alienation that Terry had an affair. Now this is what got me. Terry said, “If you would’ve told her that she was gonna have an affair with this guy two years before, she would’ve laughed.” It wasn’t like she was physically attracted to him at all. It wasn’t like she was emotionally attracted to him at all. But what happened? Here’s her word. She lived with a blatant unfulfilled desire to be wanted. Now she just never felt wanted. She felt despised and unwanted by her husband. And so when a guy acted like he wanted her, it was like this immediate rush that just surrounded her and carried her away. And that’s what I wanna say to you, especially in ministry where there’s spiritual warfare and it’s so relational, it is just foolish to not address a blatant long-term desire and need that isn’t being met.
John: Pastor Gary Thomas is featured today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and you’ll find more wisdom in his book called Making Your Marriage a Fortress. We’ll send that to you for a gift of any amount to the ministry today, and we’ll also include a free audio download of the entire presentation with extra content. Donate today and request those at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast or call for details 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459. Let’s return now to more from Gary Thomas as he continues speaking on the dangers of unmet needs in a marriage.
Gary: And I’m, I’m sensitive, this is, ’cause I think that’s what set me up for my emotional affair. Uh, we were just over our heads. We were this young couple. Uh, I felt sorry for Lisa. She got married so young, she didn’t have any friends who had a baby her age, so she was alone. I was gone so much. I had to work three jobs because I was an English major and it takes about three jobs of an English major to feed the family, right? And so that meant I was gone all the time. And so Lisa feels like she’s more and more alone and frustrated with an extremely colicky baby. And so I’m spending time with this other woman at work and I realized where the feelings were going. And that’s when I said, and this was a huge mistake, man, don’t ever make this mistake.
Instead of going to someone else and saying, “How do you get me out of this? I thought, I’m just gonna handle myself.” I just said, “Hey, you know what? We, we just can’t meet again at work anymore.” “Well, why not? It’s been so helpful to me.” I mean, I just, and I just, “Well, my family’s really important to me.” And she wasn’t stupid. She goes, “Oh. Uh, I can’t believe it.” I said, “Why?” She goes, “Well, you’re just so perfect.” I’ve never been high, but I can’t imagine a dopamine hit that would take over my brain like that did. When you feel like you can’t do this, this, this, all of a sudden. Perfect is the word that you hear. And that’s what broke down. So many be like… I am not excusing myself. I am ashamed of that. Um, I’m ashamed at a time when Lisa needed me more, I was drawing back.
I did everything wrong. But rather than Lisa and I looking at that, it’s just so predictable. Lisa and I have said so many times, we wish we could go pastor that couple. It’s predictable the situation there, and they just needed some perspective, some prayer, some help. We also wish we could have written them a check. You ever feel (laughs) that way when you get older? If I could write myself a check 20 years ago, I just wish I could do that. We wouldn’t miss it now. If you’re really frustrated, and this is why I’m always asking Lisa, “Is there something I’m not hearing from you? Is there something I’m not addressing? I wanna keep my… Am I just not hearing you?” ‘Cause I don’t want any of us to overestimate our ability to endure a marriage that is subpar like that. Romans 12:3 says this.
“I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.” It is kindness to tell your spouse, “This isn’t working for me. Ignoring this isn’t making it better. It’s putting us in a dangerous situation.” Uh, time and again, I think one of the biggest mistakes I see Christian couples make is they wait too long to address it. I was working with a guy one time and, a- and I had told him before, “Look, you guys need to do an intensive, one hour a week of counseling is not gonna be enough to address these issues.” “Yeah, yeah, I’ll get to it.” Another year goes by, she files for divorce. And, and he asked me afterwards, ’cause we had this kind of relation, “W- what would you say I did wrong?”
I said, “Buddy, you waited too long. Your wife was trying to raise this and this.” “Yeah, I’ll get to it, but it’s busy at work. I got this to do. I got to do that.” “You, you waited too long till she was just not even willing to consider it again.” That’s what happens with others. It’s what can happen with us when we wait too long. And that’s what led Terry to slide into her affair. It began living with long-term unfulfilled desire to be wanted, which set her up to be wooed. She wouldn’t have been open to being wooed if she didn’t have that long, unfulfilled desire. And that set her up to start seeking her coworker out whenever he was in the building just to talk to him. She wasn’t thinking she’s gonna have an affair with him, but he was wooing her and now she’s reciprocating it, but in an innocent way, right? We’ll just meet each other in this particular building.
And that set her up to receive his flirtations when he started giving them. A healthy wife is gonna say, “Hey, hey, hey, you’re getting the wrong idea. I’m, I’m not signing up for that.” But she finally felt wanted. It was like putting a little flame to dry newspaper, and that set her up to allow him to kiss her at a bar one evening. She didn’t stop him. And it just seemed like a small step to go from that to spending a night at a hotel. Affairs are frequently gradual, entered into by many steps. And we’re gonna talk about those steps rather than just being this great one night cataclysmic thing. Often we can look back and see what sets us up. They’re gradual. But I also wanna point out from a Christian perspective, they are evil. The movie industry makes it sound so romantic. We know as Christians how evil it is to break a bond that God Himself has established.
John: And that’s Gary Thomas with a pretty serious admonition. And we’re gonna have to end right there for today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We’re gonna continue Gary’s message though, and hear more of the steps that can lead to an affair next time.
Jim: Uh, that’s right. And I hope our listeners can be with us for that. Uh, this content is from Gary’s book called Making Your Marriage a Fortress: Strengthening Your Marriage to Withstand Life’s Storms. And it is a really good read. Um, I think every married couple, pre-married couple should get a copy. We know that difficulties are inevitable in life, from affairs as we heard today, to prodigal children, to financial problems. All those things add stress to your marriage. Gary says that with each storm there are two possible outcomes. The state of your marriage will become part of the problem, or the strength of your marriage will become a refuge for you. So before the next storm hits, you and your spouse can use this book to work on strengthening communication, improving connection, and reinforcing your commitment to each other.
John: Yeah. And Gary is such an engaging writer. Um, I love reading his books. Each of the principles here are illustrated by an interview with a couple, uh, who overcame that particular problem. And it’s so relatable.
Jim: Uh, get your copy of Making Your Marriage a Fortress from Focus on the Family and we’ll include a free audio download of Gary’s two-part presentation so that you can share it with your spouse. And we’ll send the book out to you when you make a donation of any amount. Join the ministry, be part of the solution and the answers that couples need. And remember all those proceeds go right back into ministry, not into shareholders’ pockets. Join us as we help marriages thrive in Christ with our great team of counselors and our Hope Restored Marriage Intensives with locations from coast to coast. When you make a donation to Focus on the Family, you become a member of our Marriage Saving team. The best way to support us is with a monthly pledge. That’s how Jean and I support the ministry. It’s how you and Dena support, John.
John: We do as well. Right.
Jim: If, uh, that doesn’t work for you, we got it, um, we understand that. If you can make a one-time gift of any amount, we will, uh, bless you with this great marriage resource.
John: Yeah. Get your copy of Making Your Marriage a Fortress at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast, or call us our number’s 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. Next time, more on this topic from Gary Thomas.
Gary: By definition, affairs have to kill a marriage to succeed. It’s not romance, it’s not love, it’s murder. And we need to look at it that way.
John: That’s next time on Focus on the Family. Thanks for joining us. And when you get in touch, please let us know you listen on AM 790 and FM 100.3 KURM. I’m John Fuller, and on behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, join us next time as we help you and your family thrive in Christ.
