John Fuller: Jesus said in John chapter 7, “The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it, that its works are evil.” Well, those words from Jesus seem so appropriate in this moment as we consider how to show Christ to our culture. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller and welcome to our show.
Jim Daly: John, I appreciate that reference because it seems like we are at an inflection point. Last week, we had terrible tragedy with this young Christian leader, conservative leader, Charlie Kirk. He was 31 years old, married not long ago, has two adorable children, and was shot down at a university campus because he was speaking about those things that are dominantly biblical. Whether that’s family formation or abortion or issues with the LGBTQ community but he was trying to engage that’s what he was trying to do is have dialog and persuade people that their positions should be reconsidered. And for that it seems uh… people hated him and decided, one person obviously decided, to take him out and end his life. The Ukrainian woman on the train uh… she was killed simply for sitting near somebody that she shouldn’t have sat next to. John: It was such a brutal act. Jim: Yeah, and I’m aware of, I think not long ago, a pastor in Arizona was crucified in his home by a person who said, “I hated him because he talked about Jesus.” Things are happening. John: Yeah. Jim: And I think we need to be aware of that but refocus on the things that are most important. When we stand up for truth, how do we do that in such a way that the Lord is honored? And we’re going to talk today with two special friends to dig deeper and better understand the Christian response and the Christian attitude in this cultural moment.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we have, joining us remotely, Brant Hansen and Gabe Lyons. Brant is a widely syndicated radio host and author of the book, Unoffendable: How Just One Change Can Make All of Life Better. And Gabe Lyons is also an author and speaker and the founder of ThinQ, a media company dedicated to exploring the intersection of faith, culture, and the next generation. Jim: And just for reference, Think with a Q, in case people wanna look it up. Brant and Gabe, welcome to Focus on the Family. Thank you for joining us today. Gabe Lyons: Thank you. Brant Hansen: Yeah, it’s great to be with you, Jim. Jim: Hey, this is a heavy note given what’s taking place. Charlie Kirk, he was one of a kind. You know, he’s young, he is entrepreneurial. He was a believer. He was trying to take those thoughts and ideas into really a fiery furnace, into college campuses and speak to students about what they believed. I think his tour was often… the banner was “Prove Me Wrong.” And people would step to the mic and go after it when it came to social issues, to a degree the political landscape, but how would you summarize, and perhaps what impressed each of you, Brant, I’ll start with you, with Charlie Kirk. Brant: What I heard from some of his friends was that he just kept getting better at what he was doing over time. Jim: Hmm. Brant: And I think that’s really interesting. He was so young. And I just recently heard an interview with him; I just heard a bit on social media of him with Tucker Carlson. And Tucker was like, “How does this not drive you crazy? All this stuff that’s happening?” He’s like, it doesn’t drive me crazy ’cause I expect it. We’re in a spiritual battle. And he started talking about this spiritual battle we’re in and loving our enemies. I’m like, I don’t know that at 31 I could have gotten close to that. Jim: [Chuckles] Brant: You know? So, he had, I think he had to reflect on that. When you’re dealing with people who hate you all the time and then you’re trying to return it with love, you get better at it over time. And you also learn, wait a second, I’m up against something here that’s not just flesh and blood. And that actually allows you to love your enemies better when you keep that in mind. That’s one of the things that jumps out at me about him. Jim: Yeah. How about you, Gabe? Gabe: Yeah, for me, I mean, his biblical testimony, clearly, he had this political aim to mobilize people into a conservative movement for voting, elections, to elect those that represent their values and views. But when I think about him as a biblical man who died for his faith and those views and convictions he had, he was willing to apply them to our current culture and to say, if we really believe this, then these are the ways in which you would apply it to civil society. And, you know, I also was inspired when I think about his life and how studied he was, right? It’s like 2 Timothy talks about study to show thyself approved. A workman need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I mean, that’s what he represented. Also in 1 Peter 3, where it describes, be the kind of person that’s able to answer any question and do it with courteousness and respect. And when you watch him, and especially in these latter years, his goal was to show respect to each person, to show dignity to every human being. He understood that he was debating ideas, not people. And I think this is something we all have to keep alive as we move forward in a divided moment, is that we’re always, as Brant said, we’re debating something that is beyond just the natural. This is supernatural. And so, to be prepared for those moments and then to engage in that type of way is a way in which you see what it inspires in so many of us.
Jim: You know, one of the, I think, most profound interactions, and I’ve seen hundreds, if not thousands, of his interactions on campus, of course, on YouTube, or actually you can go and watch those discussions, those debates, et cetera. But it was a gender dysphoric student that stepped up, and she was 20 years old, and she was talking about how she, since she was in third grade, struggled with her se . . . her gender. And he said, first of all, thank you for coming up to the mic. It took a lot of courage to be there. And he says, second of all… And her question was around whether she should move forward with hormone treatments and other things like that. And he said so tenderly, he said, “You know, before you introduce chemicals into your body, I would encourage you, and most people may not tell you this, but I would encourage you to work on your mental health. First, find people who love you, find counselors who can talk with you, so that the goal would be, at least the way I see you today, that somehow and I think it’s through a relationship with Christ that you would love your body and not be at war with your body.” John: Hmm. Jim: And I thought, wow, that is powerful. There was no emotion, there was no hatred in it. It was just like heartfelt reasonableness to say you’re born into a female gender. God planned for that. How can we get you to a point where you can embrace that rather than fight and be at war with it? And I mean, the audience just went quiet because it was so palpable. But that’s the kind of person I saw in Charlie Kirk. He was not, sometimes he was sarcastic, humorously. But for the most part, when it was that serious, he was up to the task of meeting the moment spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, in a way that he did, Brant. He really honed that skill. Brant: Yeah, and so. This is one of the tough things about this, even if he responded perfectly to every single person like that, like that’s such a great way. Even if… we’d like to think, well, if I’m compassionate, if I love my enemies, if I say the right thing, if I’m wise, they’ll understand at some level and they’ll realize, wow, this guy actually loves me, and they won’t hurt me. But that’s not true. That’s not true. But the … being hurt or being injured in this world is like Jesus is saying. Like, he himself was perfect. And look what happened. So, we have to understand that we’re not going to be understood by everybody, or maybe many people. Jesus is up there on the cross with just a couple people left. And the other posture that Jesus has too is, remarkably, we have to have this. They don’t know what they’re doing. Forgive them for they don’t know… I mean that is a very difficult posture to have when you see the stuff in the comment threads that… It’s very difficult and yet that’s his posture towards us as sinners. So, I have to keep reminding myself of that, but it’s tough because you think if you’re gonna answer like that, that people are going to go, “Eureka. Love.” But that’s not necessarily how it works out. Jim: Yeah. Gabe: Yeah, I think, you know, when I look at the way he postured himself, and a lot of people now are talking about feeling this increased need for more boldness, that there was something about Charlie Kirk that makes all of us want to speak up more, have courage. But I think we want to process through what does wisdom look like in boldness. You know, boldness is not a Fruit of the Spirit, but boldness IS what took place in Acts 4 when people were filled with the Holy Spirit. So, there’s something to understand there and I think my friends David and Jason Benham they wrote a book on this where I thought they described this perfectly where boldness without brokenness creates a bully. And we’ve seen a lot of that and so the beauty of this is when you’re bold, but you’re broken you create a bridge that allows people to have an opportunity to actually see God. And I think as we move forward in these conversations this is gonna be an important topic for us to land on. What is the balance here of boldness, but also brokenness?
Jim: I appreciate that because I think it’s odd in the human makeup we tend to be a light switch either this way or that way. Uh, we’re not on a dimmer switch emotionally where we can move with wisdom in the conversations that we’re having. And I think that’s part of it. And that’s the thing we need to learn out of this experience is how do we keep the wretched man down within each of us? Let me read something from Peggy Noonan and get your response, and Gabe, we’ll start with you on this. Peggy Noonan wrote just the other day: “This assassination of Charlie Kirk feels different. As an event. Like a hinge point, like something that’s going to reverberate in dark ways. It isn’t just another dreadful thing. It carries the ominous sense that we’re at the beginning of something bad.” I would say that’s probably a fair assessment. But how, like Erika, his brave widow, who got up a couple of evenings later and went and did a press presentation talking to the United States saying my husband’s memory is not going to be snuffed out. It will rise up and be stronger, in essence. John: Mmm.
Jim: … and evil is not gonna achieve its means. So, with Peggy’s comment and his, again his widow’s comment about what they’ve unleashed, what does that look like to turn this thing that was meant for evil into something good? Gabe: I think Peggy’s words are sobering. And we’re told throughout the New Testament to be alert, to be sober-minded, to understand what does it mean to endure patiently which means you’re going to be in environments just like the church was throughout all of the early centuries and even up until recent Western culture where they were at odds with the dominant ideas of the culture and did live in fear that those ideas could get them killed. I mean, that’s why we have the stories of the martyrs, right? They go all the way back. Polycarp, you know, at age 86, being burned at the stake because he refused to remove himself from the identifying with Christ. And so, the darkness, it reminds me of Isaiah 59, let me read this passage, 14-15. It says, “Justice is turned back and righteousness stands far away, for truth has stumbled in the public squares, and uprightness cannot enter. Truth is lacking and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey.” It does describe an environment, a public square, a culture where when Truth is entering this space, where there is the demonic, where there’s a lot of evil doing, where things that are good are being called evil and things that are evil have been set up to be good, that the person who’s willing to stand in that gap makes himself a prey. And yet, we also, just like Charlie, cannot have a fear of man. We have to understand, as he did, our life is surrendered to Him. He’s called us the most important thing we could do is continue to advance Truth. Because what we saw happening with the next generation, and I think we’re going to continue to see with the next generation, is they were responding to Charlie because he was willing to tell the truth in a world where they’ve grown up with lies. Where they’ve grown up with people, parents even, that weren’t willing to call sin, sin. Call good, good. Help them define and rightly divide what is Truth. And because he is willing to do that these kids understand. They respond. They go, “Thank you. Please, thank you for just being honest with us,” because there’s something about that, the eternity that’s set within the hearts of men that does respond when somebody puts forward what is true. And so, I’m also hopeful about all that’s going to take place in the days. I was with Michael W. Smith a couple nights ago. We had a vigil here in Franklin, Tennessee, and I was sobered by what he said. He said, I’ve been in the Christian world, right? I’ve been all over the world for decades. And he says, I’ve never quite seen a moment like this. I’ve never seen a man gunned down like this for his for his beliefs. And I’ve also never seen a response like we’re right in the middle of right now. And so, there’s a hopefulness with it. But there’s also a sober mindedness.
John: Well, we’re covering so much today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Our guests are Gabe Lyons and Brant Hansen. You can find out more about our Truth Rising Documentary and the free four-part study guide at our website, and it’s: Focusonthefamily.com/broadcast
Jim: Let me introduce something that really caught my attention. And this was the Governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, who made some profound statements on the day of the shooting. Let’s play this clip. And I just, Brant, we’ll start with you. Just give your response after the clip. Gov. Cox: “Nothing I say can unite us as a country. Nothing I can say right now can fix what is broken. Nothing I can say can bring back Charlie Kirk. Our hearts are broken. We mourn with his wife, his children, his family, his friends. We mourn as a nation. If anyone in the sound of my voice celebrated even a little bit at the news of this shooting, I would beg you to look in the mirror. And to see if you can find a better angel in there somewhere. I don’t care what his politics are. I care that he was an American. We desperately need our country. We desperately, leaders in our country. But more than the leaders, we just need every single person in this country to think about where we are and where we want to be. To ask ourselves, ‘Is this …is this it? Is this what 250 years has wrought on us?’ I pray that that’s not the case. I pray that those who hated what Charlie stood for will put down their social media and their pens and pray for his family. And that all of us, ALL of us, will try to find a way to stop hating our fellow Americans.” Brant: Well, that’s beautifully put, and I would say, I think something similar if I was in that situation. I will say this personally. I don’t think the Charlie Kirk assassination is the start of something. I think it’s things coming to fruition, ideas that have percolated for a long time. And you can see that from the reactions. And I can’t control those reactions. They’re awful. Um, I …it’s, in one way it’s like, I can’t believe we’re dealing with this, but on the other hand, I sort of can. I’ve seen the ideologies shape up as they have. I’ve seen… half of Americans routinely called Nazis or fascists or whatnot. It’s ju …like, that, that can’t hold. So, I wanna say this, that I’m not super optimistic about those people seeing the light. Some will. But, there’s a, there’s another scripture, and I think this, I think I’ve got to hold on to this, and I think maybe a lot of people listening need to hold onto it, too. When Jeremiah is watching his whole nation go down, and he wrote Lamentations, he’s chronicling this awful stuff that’s happening. And he’s watching this just turn into dirt. Jerusalem’s being run over, and horrible things are happening. And then he says, “Yet this I call to mind. Because of the Lord’s great love for us, we are not consumed.” And then he talks about his mercies being new every morning and his faithfulness endures forever. I think I’ve got, we have to camp out on that when news isn’t good, that ultimately our security is with God. And he can say, yet even now, with all this stuff that’s going on, yet, you know what? I have to actually call this to mind. I can’t just passively consume lots of media. I have called this to mind. God is good. And it, like His love endures forever, His faithfulness. Now this is, again, it’s written in a time when he’s seeing this all go down. So, even if you’re not optimistic about everybody turning around and we’re gonna get this, like, that to me is incredibly important for those of us who know Him to continue to actively remind ourselves of that kind of Truth if that makes sense. Jim: Oh, it does. Gabe, thoughts on that clip? Gabe: Yeah, I think what the governor was asking for is for everybody to immediately stop the way they think about the world based on the culture they’ve been saturated in, and I’m hopeful that some will do that. I think, though, like Brant, if we don’t go back to understand how did we get here and we don’t actually start rebuilding in the institutions that we have, the colleges, the ways in which our culture talks about things. You know, I think of things like violence, for example. Like, we’ve changed words, and we’ve essentially now equated speech as something that’s violent. And a new generation has grown up believing that your speech can be violent. Now, certainly, there’s some speech that can incite violence. But I think when you start to equate speech and words and free speech and opinions and thoughts as potentially violent because they hurt you personally, you feel hurt when you hear them because you don’t agree with them, that starts to equate a false equivalency in people’s minds that believes I’m gonna meet your violence of words with my violence of physical threat. Now that all comes from a generation that’s grown up in an emotive world that said your feelings are what tell you what’s true or not in the world and have started to change the definition of words. And once you start changing the definition of words you find yourself now in a malaise of people being confused, of people feeling justified with their actions of anger. And we have to work backwards now and re-educate. Jonathan Haidt wrote a great piece in 2017 specifically warning about this. I mean this was eight years ago, saying we must not equate speech to violence.
Jim: Yeah. Gabe: And you can see the fruit of that type of thinking. Jim: Well, in fact, that’s something I saw in a news clip. I think the gentleman was Tim Pool, who’s written about algorithms and the way in 2008 social media platforms found that the fastest way to get something shared is through anger. And so, they begin to juice algorithms to send you things that made you angry because you were more likely to share those.
Brant: I think that’s the trick here, too. It’s completely natural to feel anger in response to something like this. But the biblical wisdom is we have to get rid of it. Like we got to get rid of it before the sun goes down. We have to rid of all anger. Anger is not part of the Fruit of the Spirit either. Like this is something that will actually kill you. It’ll hurt your relationships with your family. It’ll hurt your relationships with people around you. Like, but we think we should cling to it. We shouldn’t. And I think the praying for your enemies thing is, everything Jesus says is so genius. But the praying your enemies’ thing, if you do that, you will feel your temperature dropping as you go. Jim: Right, it gives you empathy.
Brant: Yes, you’ll be able to do this. Now, it’s hard at first. But you can become the sort of person who does it. And over time, your character gets shaped. But this is not an option. If you’re somebody who’s a believer, praying for enemies is not like something you might wanna do. We don’t have a choice. Jim: Yeah. Yeah, it’s so true. You know, we just released and you two may not have seen it yet, but we’ll send it to you if we haven’t. But it’s all free. But something called Truth Rising. And it’s a documentary. 90-minute documentary. It starts off with a really a history lesson from Os Guinness about Western civilization – the formation of it the reliance on Judeo-Christian values, biblical truth, etc. And I think it’s Baroness Stroud who in the film mentions that the distinction with Western civilization in the early stages was that they embraced the concept, the biblical concept, that everyone is made in God’s image. And one of the things you’re seeing now, I think, in some of the debates, the dehumanizing, I think starting with abortion, frankly, and moving to euthanasia. What Dr. Francis Schaeffer talked about back in the 70’s as a warning about abortion is coming to pass. That it’s becoming a dehumanizing tool that we don’t even think what we’re doing to one another now, because it’s just biological. And we’re so far away from that theme in Truth Rising about everyone being made in his image. Gabe, what are your thoughts in that regard? Gabe: Well, I think what Charlie represented so well as he walked into these environments where clearly he was being opposed by, or at least he welcomed those who opposed him most to be in conversation with him, was that he had such a clarity that God does exist. Like this basic truth that there is a God, I will be accountable to this God, God’s given us a moral order, and He’s also given us direction on how to live a life that leads to flourishing, not just for me, but for my neighbors, my community, my city, my nation. And when you don’t start with that premise that there is a God, you obviously have to come up with all kinds of other directions and gods that are telling you what you think is right, true, and just. And therefore, the conflict comes. And that is just the spiritual battle we’ve had from the beginning. I mean, the Babylon spirit that’s existed from the beginning of Genesis that wanted to make other gods conflicting with the kingdom of God. And that’s what we’re seeing on full display is righteousness that is speaking Truth towards a world that doesn’t believe there’s any code for righteousness, and that right is what they see in their own eyes, just like in the days of Noah. And so I think, I think we’re in the middle of that type of a conflict that goes so much higher than just us at the human level, but it is based on this principle that if you don’t believe God exists, then like you said, we are essentially going to be like animals. We don’t have any reason to act differently. Jim: And I think, I just wanna make right at the end here this point: the very essence of doing what they did or certainly what the shooter did allegedly to Charlie Kirk, it’s to silence him. It’s to put him out so that you don’t hear what he has to say. He wasn’t a violent man, Charlie Kirk. He’s showing up, sitting in a chair on a campus and talking about core themes, most of them theological, Biblical themes, about human sexuality, about abortion, and they just cannot tolerate that. But ending here with that thought of do we simply get kowtowed by that intimidation that if I say something, they could kill me? I think Jesus is saying, stand for the Truth, do it winsomely, do it with grace, do it with a peaceful heart. But when you do it there could be consequences.
Gabe: Yeah, I think understanding that the pattern here with this current society we’re in, and all totalitarian environments and tyrannical governments, is that first they start by marginalizing your words. Then it moves to demonizing your words and then ultimately, it’s criminalizing your words. And that’s really the state that we’re in is words mattering that much that they need to be criminalized because we can’t debate on the basis and the merit of ideas. But essentially, it’s based on you aligning with whatever the power structure says you have to say. And so Jim, to your point, we must, as Christians, continue to stand up in the public square, speak Truth in love, but address these areas where we see the demise of our society because we love and we’re broken for human beings who we see suffering from the consequences of horrible ideas. Brant: That’s got to be the motivation. I’m glad you included that, Gabe, at the end, because I was going to get back to your point about brokenness. Like, we’re on … we’re rooting for you, even if you’re not rooting for yourself. We’re for you, even if want to take it out on us, and we/re, we/re …because we love you. We love our enemies. We’re very different that way. Christians are odd, aren’t they? I mean, it’s just …who else does that? But we’re going to do it. Jim: Well, and we’ll continue to do it. Let’s hold together here, let’s come back next time and talk about how to equip Christians, what do we need to do to engage the culture effectively, and to remember these do’s and don’ts when it comes to encountering people that don’t believe the way we believe. How do we help them see things differently? When you think about it, Charlie Kirk’s life was that. Going onto these campuses, having an open mic, letting people ask him tough questions, him giving his best response. And then, hopefully, persuading people that, you know what, taking human life is not good. And living outside of the sexual dimensions that the Lord has set this up for us in humanity comes with a lot of downward consequences. And those are just two of the topics that he covers. But I think it honors his life to know exactly what you said, Gabe. Buckle up with the Truth, get into the arena, and speak boldness with clarity, but also with grace. Thank you both for being with us. Gabe: Thanks.
Brant: Yes sir.
Jim: And let me say to the listeners, I want to encourage you to ask us for Brant Hansen’s book, Unoffendable: How Just One Change Can Make All of Life Better. And if you can make a gift of any amount, monthly or one time, we’ll send you a copy of Brant’s book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. And, uh, as we also mentioned our Truth Rising documentary that released, recently, on YouTube. I hope you can go and watch that, it’s free and it has a four-part study which is also free, that drives down into the many topics that we’ve covered today.
John: Yeah. Get involved, do your part in this critical time in our culture, and be a beacon of light and hope. You can learn more about Truth Rising, the free four-part study guide as well, and then that book by Brant Hansen. All of that and an opportunity for you to donate and support the ministry at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call for details. 800, the letter A. and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459.
Day Two:
Preview:
Gabe Lyons: We must as Christians continue to stand up in the public square, speak truth, in love, but address these areas where we see the demise of our society because we love and we’re broken for human beings who we see suffering from the consequences of, of horrible ideas.
John Fuller: Well that’s Gabe Lyons, our guest last time addressing our need to engage others and to share the love of Christ in our culture. We’re continuing the conversation today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, last time we had a great discussion with our guests uh, reflecting on where the culture is and how we can reach it for the cause of Christ. That’s what our goal is as Christians, to persuade, to give information to, to ask the right questions, to help people think through what it is they believe. But it can be difficult, and we’re certainly seeing that with what happened last week with Charlie Kirk, who was doing this on campuses effectively. He was a 31-year-old man, married, two young children, and somebody decided his voice should be silenced and they shot him, uh, and killed him. And uh, now we’re facing the repercussions of that. What is it we need to do as Christians in this moment? Do we respond out of our anger? Do we response with the heart of Christ knowing these people as Christ hung on the cross which, Brant, our guest, mentioned yesterday and said, forgive them for they know not what they do. Uh, that is superhuman. I’d say that’s only inspired by the Holy Spirit in us as Christians that can do that, and I’m looking forward to continuing the discussion today.
John: Yeah, Gabe Lyons and Brant Hansen are back with us remotely for the conversation. And Gabe is the founder of THINQ, that’s T-H-I-N-Q, a groundbreaking media company dedicated to exploring the intersection of faith and culture and speaking to the next generation. He’s deeply invested in young people in his work. Brant Hansen is a return guest as well. He’s a syndicated radio host and author of the book Unoffendable: How Just One Change Can Make All of Life Better. Uh, you’ll it at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Brant and Gabe, welcome back for day two of this program. Thank you for being with us.
Gabe Lyons: Thank you.
Jim: Hey, Gabe, I’ll point this to you. Gen Z-ers, there was a poll that showed that 56% of Gen Z believes political violence is never justified, which means 44% of Gen Z-ers are saying political violence IS justified. How… what’s your reaction to that, Gabe? I mean, it seems a little breathtaking.
Gabe: Yes, it is, it’s an alarming stat. I, I read that 93% of baby boomers, you know, juxtaposed to that, you know do believe political violence is wrong. And so you can just see a worldview shift in the next generation. And part of that has been the softening of our words and understanding what words mean. We’ve been told this generation for over a decade that speech is violence and that if you hear something that hurts you or harms you that perhaps you need to leave and be in what they call a safe space. All of this built around trying to protect a generation that should be growing up in a world where they learn how to debate their ideas and have conversation around these ideas, much like we saw Charlie Kirk trying to do. They’ve grown up being told if you don’t like an idea you run from it and if you don’t like the person stating that idea they’re your enemy and their words are just as violent, as what we’ve always known violence to be, something that’s an act of physical violence. And so we see just in the assassination of Charlie Kirk, where this plays out, where the alleged shooter, you know, a young man, as we keep learning more, there’s the potential that it’s literally about him thinking his violence was meeting Charlie’s word violence. So we must get clear on these words, that speech is not violence, and the next generation is learning that, but they’re gonna have to relearn that, because they’ve been indoctrinated with false beliefs about how to engage a public square that don’t work in a civil society.
Jim: You know, Brant, one of the things that Charlie Kirk talked about is the need to communicate with one another. People who oppose each other, when you talk about things, when you meet at the microphone like he was doing, it actually is a good thing because persuasion happens, ideas are talked about, dialog occurs, there’s something in the way we’re wired as human beings, made in God’s image, that relationship matters; that we need this kind of connection in in order to get to a better place. But there are people in the culture, as Gabe is saying, who can’t tolerate an opinion that’s opposed to mine. And the way we’re gonna deal with it is with violence or threats of violence. And it’s just, wow, how do human beings that co-exist, you know, all those nice little bumper stickers, how do we actually co-exist when you can’t speak what you think? And that’s unhealthy.
Brant Hansen: That is extremely unhealthy. I can’t control all of that. I think it’s important for all of us to realize, like I can identify problems ideologically in our culture that are virulent and horrible, but I have to think of my own life. It’s very true that relationship is actually pretty much the only thing, honestly, that convinces people. I mean, that’s, to refer to Jonathan Haidt again, he talks about the elephant in the writer analogy where he’s like the elephant, you know, thinks it’s, or the elephant’s actually in control. We think we’re in control, but the elephant is our emotions and our intuitions. And the writer is reason. And he says, we all like to think we are reasonable people, but it’s really emotional stuff. And you can’t change that emotional stuff with just facts and figures; they won’t listen to you as a general rule. But he said, and this is where the hopeful part starts, he said, the only thing that gets that elephant to start to turn is relationships. That’s it! And it’s interesting, the reactions to Charlie Kirk that I’ve seen from people who are ideologically opposed to the things that he believed, but they’re universally, it’s like, but this guy was really cool, they’re saying. I met him, I hung out with him, he was actually a really great guy. And I think that’s interesting to hear that the people who actually met him; when we keep people human in front of us, it’s a different deal. So when you deal with your neighbors, they might have a very difficult time. They might say, I’ve heard horrible things about Christians, for instance, but dog on it, they’re pretty cool down the street. They actually love me. It’s a, about the only way to actually change people’s minds.
Jim: You know, uh, it’s interesting, uh, Rob Kirkpatrick, our Executive Producer, sent me a meme of a guy who was not highly educated, had never owned a suit. And it’s him doing a little TikTok in his, it looked like his backyard, just saying, you know what, he’s standing in a suit, and he’s saying, You know what? My wife, we’re making a little more money now, and my wife bought me this suit. I’ve never owned this suit, but I’m going to go to church on Sunday. And I’m gonna go to church on Sunday because of Charlie Kirk. And I don’t know that guy well, but he seemed to stand for things that are right. And then the phone drops and he uses an expletive and then he corrects himself, which was keeping with his world understanding. And then he just set it up and he said, I feel more dignity today than I used to feel. That’s what the gospel delivers.
Gabe: Yeah, I’m hearing stories, Jim, of friends, you know, I just saw a text from a friend who said, hey, I haven’t been in a church in 20 years. I’m a gay man. I didn’t know I’d be welcome in a church. I did… I am kind of afraid of going to the church, but the, the activities of these last week have led me to want to step foot in church again and re-explore what a relationship with God looks like. I mean, that’s the power of the Spirit moving through a tragic, awful event. To begin to turn people’s hearts to at least pay attention, like maybe there’s something different I haven’t heard before, maybe there is a better way. And you think about Charlie Kirk, I mean, some people had followed him and listen to him, but a lot of people wouldn’t have known anything about what Charlie Kirk talked about, but you think about how many more tens of millions of people now, are listening to him communicate his world view, and also, you know, one of the things I love, Jim, about his mission as he said, look, my number one mission is to win as many people to Jesus as we can. Like, that’s what every Christian should be doing is trying to win one to Christ. But the second part of that mission is to make sure it’s possible for people to come to Christ, which was speaking to his concern and care for religious liberty and the protection that we need in our society, to be able to talk freely about these ideas. And so those are the encouraging signs on the back of something that’s been awful and horrific where I think we can draw hope and see the spirit of God’s movement. I’m talking to pastors today who said their services were packed this past Sunday. More and more people, young people, because Erica Kirk got on, right? And that was the one thing she said. She said, find a church this weekend and go. And I think your testimony of this gentleman doing that is someone literally just inviting them, saying, hey, go just check it out. Give Jesus a second chance. Take a look at what He claims and how that might impact your life positively.
Jim: Boy, that’s so good and so right. Brant, you wrote the book Unoffendable. In fact, you talk about one thing you can change that’ll help you. What was your goal there with that promise?
Brant: Well, to talk… it, it, honestly, it’s discipleship. It’s uh, it’s actually loving your enemies and the, the idea that you don’t cling to your anger frees you to be a different sort of person. So that kind of has to do with your last question, what Gabe was talking about. I would add, some people are absolutely equipped and called and gifted to go campus to campus and engage people one after the other. A lot of people are not. That’s just not going to be their thing. The question is, are you going to actually love your enemies? To me, like, eh, eh, so the biggest thing that we could do positively for churches to make disciples of Jesus, teaching them to obey the things He’s commanded, that was, like, that’s the whole thing. But if we don’t actually actively teach people how to love your enemy, how do I pray for people who are driving me crazy? You could do this. You could say on Tuesday night, 6.30, come to the church, we’re going to teach you how to your enemies. We’re going teach you how forgive people who don’t deserve it. Like that’s actually making disciples. I feel like we haven’t talked about that a whole lot. And so, uh, but the best thing for the world that we could do would be having a bunch of people who are becoming more like Jesus and their personalities are being transformed by actually learning how to do the stuff that Jesus told us to do. Jim: Yeah, it’s amazing as a sermon title, you’re right. I’ve never heard somebody preach on that, that sermon title.
Brant: That’s a, that’s basic Jesus stuff, right?
Jim: Right.
Brant: So that’s absolutely confounding to me. And it, and, and, people say, well, I’m going to go to heaven when I die. Okay, that’s cool, but Jesus is giving us a way to live right now. But this eternal life begins now and He wants to shape us. So teach people how to forgive your enemies and we’ll see people like growing up and it’s something we can actually do.
Jim: Yeah, it’s so true! You know, we just release Truth Rising. It’s a great effort. It’s free. You know, we’re not charging for people to stream it. And there’s a four-part study that goes with it to help people learn these areas. The timing of this, to me, has just got ordained. I mean, we started that project two years ago. And for it to hit right now with everything swirling in the culture, uh, is just incredible timing. In addition to that, I want to pick up on what both of you talked about a moment ago. You know, another thing that we do is RVL, Ray Vanderlaan discipleship, and we did that the world may know. I mean, it is so much content. Of course, Ray is an expert in Judaism and kind of reads the scripture through Jewish eyes and helps Westerners better understand what is being said. And I’m going to have the team link to a free episode. They’re like 15-minute devotionals. Gene and I do them every morning. And the other morning we read, or listened to one, called, The Coals, and in there he’s talking about Romans 12 where Jesus is talking about heaping burning coals on your enemy by loving them and doing the things we’ve been talking about. So much of a, so many of us in the West interpret that as retribution, yeah, heap coals on the, burning coals on their head and Ray is saying no, burning coals represented God’s presence. What that scripture is talking about is treat people correctly, kindly, with grace and truth. And in so doing, you are heaping God’s presence onto them. And I know, Gabe, as you’ve gone about, you and I have talked about engaging the LGBTQ community, that’s the spiritual dynamic of what’s being done to show kindness, to show dialog, to talk with them, hopefully ask questions, as you said, that are gonna make them think a little differently about why we say and do what we do. And in so doing, you’re heaping burning coals on them, the presence of God onto them. They can’t walk away unchanged from that discussion. They may still disagree with you, but they’ll have a little different attitude, most likely, if the Holy Spirit, I know, is working in that. So speak to that, Gabe. I mean, it’s a beautiful way to understand scripture.
Gabe Lyons: Well, and I think Paul is such a good example of all of this. I mean, here’s someone as an apostle who goes out and essentially is confronting the ideas of the age. I mean you think about his famous Mars Hill, you know, speech that he gives after walking around Athens likely being confronted with all kinds of wickedness, statues, all kinds of lewdness. And what is Paul, is he offended by all of that? Is he offended by the way that the world is living its life? No, he’s provoked. And this is a posture that I think we as Christians must take on in this age is we must be provoked, not offended. We shouldn’t be offended by the way sin runs amok in the world. We should be provoked to engage it, to engage its ideologies, to engage the people who we care about because we’re broken for how much wickedness and sin is corrupting their life. And here we see in Paul’s example, he speaks to them by acknowledging the ideas they’ve believed in and how the thing that’s deep in their heart, the eternity that’s set in every person’s heart, is pursuing something. It’s pursuing a true God. But they’ve missed it and he delivers to them and helps them understand, here is who our true God is, and you can’t do that, you can’t have those conversations if first you’re not aware of the dialog in the current cultural issues and conversations that our friends are having, and our kids are having; but once you’re aware of that you then must be provoked to engage it, not to back away, not to avoid, but to engage. And I think, again, we think about Charlie Kirk’s example that’s what he did. He was provoked. He wasn’t offended by anything anybody believed. He just wanted to step in and have a conversation.
Jim: Yeah, that example of Paul, it amazes me how articulate Paul is, how he writes, etc. But they refer to him as a babbler. Who is this babbler in front of us? I’m thinking, wow, if that’s the treatment Paul got, that’s pretty stern.
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guests today are Brant Hansen and Gabe Lyons, and we’re talking about the cultural moment that we have and how we can speak into that. Uh, Jim mentioned the Ray Van der Laan video, the short little video that we’re going to be linking to. We also have a link to Truth Rising, our new documentary that’s free, along with four-part study that you can get, all of those resources and more at our website, and that’s FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast. And, um, I’m feeling, I’m feeling energized, and you guys are empowering me. And so just on behalf of some listener who perhaps is thinking this, Brant, I want to do what you guys are saying. I don’t feel like I’m intellectually equipped. Um, I feel like I might get rejected. I can’t, I don’t know. I’m just afraid right now of maybe even stepping into something that is gonna lead to disagreement and I can control it. So motivate me, help me get past that fear.
Brant: Well, I’ll say this, something about Jesus you may not have noticed, He’s very relaxed.
Jim: (Laughs) That’s so true.
Brant: He knows, He is, He knows how this all ends. He said we can be of good cheer, like even in the big picture. And something Paul wrote too, which is really interesting, ’cause his culture was crazy. He ends up losing his life because of what he believes and what he says. But it’s like, he wa… he told them, be ready to have a reason when you’re asked for the hope that you have. Because the culture’s nuts, but you’re gonna be the hopeful ones in the midst of all of this garbage. And he’s not denying all the chaos that’s going on. He’s just saying, naturally people are gonna wanna know, why are you so hopeful? Like that’s really something to me. Like, that’s real interesting. I hope, I hope that we’re people of hope, even in the mists of this stuff that you a sense of wellbeing regardless of what’s happening around you. Because you know that God’s character can ultimately be trusted, even if you don’t understand all the stuff that’s going on. So I think that’s gonna increasingly speak to people in ways that are so powerful. When we’re the non-anxious presence in our neighborhoods and communities, we’re the ones who aren’t freaking out no matter what. We’re not the angry voices. Why are you so hopeful? What’s going? Can’t you see the whole culture is in flames? Oh, yeah, I can see, but I know more. And I know enough to trust the goodness of God. I’ve, I’ve learned enough about Him in my life to trust Him. I think people are gonna be very dialed into that and we need to be ready to have a reason when they ask us for the hope we have.
Jim: You know, I was so impressed by Erika, Charlie Kirk’s widow, just a couple of days after being assassinated, being able to get on TV and talk to the nation. And I mean, her courage about that, that’s the presence of God in someone’s life. And I think, you know, in many ways, even as you hear some of Charlie Kirk’s comments foretelling if something should happen to me carry on, the Lord will use it, I mean, he almost knew that something could happen to him. And those clips that I’ve watched where he’s referenced that are incredibly encouraging. And here’s the difference, Gabe, you know, as Christians, we are going to eternal life. Sometimes we feel that this is it and we act like this is. And we froth, and we twist, and we get angry, and we don’t have that presence of mind to say, okay, Lord, use my life as you see fit. I mean think of Charlie’s life being ended in the way it has and what if it does turn into millions, literally of millions of people, being stiffened in their spiritual spine to speak boldly about truth, to love people that seem unlovable. And what, I mean, what an impact his life will have had even though it only lasted 31 years. I mean, he goes into heaven with, as Erika said, with that martyr’s crown.
Gabe: Yeah, yeah, no, I think, Jim, you’re right. I think even that word martyr is important for us to recognize. I mean, this is, I believe, in in our lifetime for sure. And even in American life, this would be the first Christian martyr that we’ve witnessed a death, like this in front of us, and in front the whole world. Everybody had to watch it. I mean it’s amazing right now with technology how everybody’s exposed to a person declaring truth. And then being shot down. And that’s what I think gripped all of us and makes us sick at our stomach and made us see evil for what it is in that moment. But he understood, I’ve talked to his friends, people close with him who he knew that every day he went on these campuses, his life was in danger. He understood that threat. And yet this is what it means for somebody who walks with a surrendered spirit to say, I’m gonna trust God with my life. I can’t add one day to it. I can’t take one day away from it. He knows all. And so with wisdom, I’ll go forward, I’ll have security teams, we’ll do the work. But I’m just gonna trust Him. And I think for all of us, that’s a hard thing to do. We don’t want to die. But I think what we learned from the example of Jesus, Paul, all of the disciples is that they had a full surrender to the fact that they were going to die and they couldn’t add a day to it. And I think when we get that confidence and go, hey, I can’t add day to my life, let me just live with courage and boldness; let me speak what God’s put on my heart and not compromise that. Make sure the inside of what I’m feeling in my conscience is matching the outside of my words. I think that’s the way in which we have to continue to live.
Jim: Well that’s a really good point, they obviously irritated people because they were killed for what they were saying, uh, the disciples. So what they believed, what they expressed, people didn’t like it, and they killed them and that’s just part of the Christian conviction, we’ve got to be prepared, it’s not what we want. But again, if the Lord can use it, what an amazing service it is to the Lord to able to reach literally millions of people. Um, let me ask you, Gabe, you have four questions for engaging culture effectively. Let’s hit those quickly right at the end here. What are those four things that we can do to engage culture?
Gabe: Well, it’s very simple. I think we all ask these questions on a lot of other issues, but we don’t always apply them to the culture. The first one we ask is, what is wrong? Simple question. What’s wrong in the culture? And our response ought to be to stop and confront it. When we see wickedness, when we see evil, we stop and confront it, we don t put up with it. The second question, though, is what is good? And we need to be just as good to celebrate and cultivate things in our culture that are good. Let’s platform them. Let’s put truth forward everywhere we have the opportunity. The third question is to ask what is missing? And when you have something that’s missing in the world, we’ve gotta go create it, and we’ve got to catalyze it. And we do that through our work with our hands, where we invest our dollars, our creativity. We go and create culture to change it, not just condemn it, as Andy Crouch has said. And then finally, what’s confused? And this was where I saw Charlie stepping into this moment. What is confused in our culture? What he would do is clarify and compel people forward. And we’re seeing the fruit of that today, somebody who clarified and compelled people around confusion to start bringing clarity.
Jim: Uh, Brant, Erika courageously reminded us that for those who love God, all things work together for good for those that are called according to his purposes. Um, as we’re wrappin’ up, uh, what reminders has God put on your heart to share with us as we’ve dialogued these last two days? I mean, that’s a big catch, but you know, even for Erika to express that, right after her husband has been killed. I’ve often thought that scripture when I’ve seen people go through things, but it’s really rough to deliver that in the moment of despair. It’s something you wanna share with somebody after there’s some healing, I believe. I mean, with my wife experiencing two suicides in her family, we’ve talked about that. Like, what good could ever come from this? Yet there has been, and it’s an amazing thing that the Lord can use. And I think we’re seeing it right before our eyes, that He is using this for good. How would you encapsulate that and give people hope here at the end, that we can trust God, that He is worthy of our trust?
Brant: Okay, quickly, He told us we can trust Him over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over in scripture and He wouldn’t have to do that if he thought, hey, they’re not going to struggle with this. Even if we believe at one level it’s another level we’re fearful like what’s really going to happen to my family, my kids, my country and like and He’s saying trust Me, trust Me, trust Me, trust Me. And when Jesus says in this world, you’ll have troubles but be of good cheer; I’ve overcome the world. It’s because He knows the end. He knows the end! Do I actually trust Him? Because the time to actually trust Him would be when things are chaotic, right? This is where… this is when it actually matters. And it, and there’s a boat that’s going down in Acts, and Paul’s on the boat. There’s 275 people, it says, on this boat. Everybody’s freaking out because they can tell they’re all going to die. The boat’s going to crash. Everybody, the captain, the pilot, everybody’s like, hey, we’re going to die. Paul’s not freaking out. And they could have looked at him, and people could look at you and say, well, you just don’t know what’s going on. You would be freaking out too if you knew what was happening. It’s like Paul’s is not naive. He knows more than they do. Right? He’s not lacking information. It’s not because he can’t watch the news. He hasn’t seen the headlines. He’s like some, some people will say that you should be freaking out. No, no, no. He knows more because God has already revealed to him that everybody’s going to be okay in the end. We do not see the big picture. I have to trust that. But ultimately, I have learned enough to say, I trust His character. And I think, I think my trust is going to be vindicated in the end, and I think that’s where Erika’s coming from. I think we can see that. But it’s very good to re…, we have to remind ourselves of this because we’re forgetting machines, we humans, we forget stuff all the time. We have to hear this over and over. And uh, I’m thankful for what Focus on the Family does to continue to bring this message to people over, and over, and over, and we need this because otherwise we forget just how good God is and then we start freaking out when we could be relaxed and hopeful, even in the midst of utter chaos.
Jim: Yeah, and I hope again this is about engagement. I was really touched with Erika’s comments that if Charlie would have someday run for president, his number one platform would be to strengthen the American family. I mean, that grabbed me by the throat because we’re walking in here every day saying, this is foundational to the wellbeing of the nation, that moms and dads are committed to each other, they’re loving their kids, they’re raising their kids in a way that’s healthy. I mean, that, it just gave me more inspiration to wake up, come in today and say, okay, let’s go for it. Let’s save some families today. Let’s save a marriage. Let’s help a parent through a child crisis. And that’s what we’re trying to do each and every day here. Gentlemen, thank you so much. It’s a tough topic. I so appreciate both of your perspectives and what you’re doing in the culture, respectively to touch lives, change lives, help people live a more committed, informed, uh, gospel message for evangelism and helping. So thank you for what you do, and thanks for being with us.
Brant: Thank you.
Gabe: Yeah, thank you, Jim. And I support everything you’re saying about the family and the good work you are doing. That’s going to be the crucial place where we see the culture turn.
Jim: And let me add this final thought for the listener and viewer. Charlie recently said in an interview, I wanna be remembered for courage, for my faith.” The most important thing is my faith, and I hope we’ll all remember that as the most important things. Hebrews 10, 23 through 24 says this, let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works. And I’m hopeful that’s what we’ve done these last couple of days. And let’s take it forward. Let’s do this each and every day with whatever opportunity God puts in our path to encourage others, to help others, and to be that light for others. And one thing you can do right now that’ll be, I think, very informative is get a copy of Brant’s book, Unoffendable: How Just One Change Can Make All Of Life Better, uh, with the gift of any amount, a one-time gift or a monthly gift, we’ll send it as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.
John: Yeah, reach out today and make that contribution and get Brandt’s book. Also we have that documentary that we’ve mentioned, Truth Rising, our new documentary that’s free, along with the four-part study that you can get, all of those resources and more at our website, and it’s FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
