Day One:
John Fuller: Well, today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we’re gonna be talking about a very sensitive topic that many husbands and wives wrestle with, but they rarely talk about it. And the issue transcends marriage. It impacts our identity, our purpose, and our faith. I’m John Fuller, and, uh, the following subject matter is just not going to be appropriate for younger listeners, and, uh, we’re gonna begin with a comment from our guest, Dr. Juli Slattery.
Dr. Juli Slattery: One thing that I’ve realized is that sex will never be a neutral issue in your marriage. It’ll either be –
Jim Daly: Oh, that’s a statement.
Dr. Slattery: It’ll either draw you together or to tear you apart.
Jim: Mm.
Dr. Slattery: And I also think that sex will never be an, a neutral issue in your relationship with God. It’s either going to be revealing God’s goodness or it also, for so many people, is a barrier to, uh, “I can’t get close to God because I’m angry or because I feel shame.”
Jim: John, this is a sensitive topic, but it’s an important one, especially, I think, for the Christian community. And I think it’s critical that we don’t back away from what may seem awkward or uncomfortable. You know, this is one we tend to joke a little bit about when it comes to sexuality, but let’s face it. I mean, sex is everywhere, especially in today’s modern culture.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And it is good for the Christian community to better understand God’s intentionality with our sexuality. And we can’t avoid that tsunami of images and the messages that are literally getting everywhere. You know, Jean hates the halftime show for the Super Bowl, especially when the boys were young.
John: Mm.
Jim: It’s like, “Okay, boys, time for nachos. Come help me make them.” Just to drag them away from the TV so they didn’t see that sexuality. But then we, as the Christian parents, have to instill healthy sexuality for our kids because God did create this, and we’ve got to remember all of that as we, uh, not only parent, but live it out as married couples, as singles, as Christians.
John: Yeah. And Dr. Juli Slattery is our guest today. She’s a former colleague. Uh, used to sit in here for interviews with us, Jim. And, uh –
Jim: That’s right.
John: She is the president and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy, which is a ministry devoted to reclaiming God’s design for sexuality. Uh, Juli is an author, speaker, and podcast host, and she and her husband, Mike, have three boys. And, uh, Juli’s written a lot of different books on this topic, but the one we’re looking at today is called Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. And we’ll encourage you to stop by our website to learn more about Juli and her ministry and this terrific resource, uh, when you stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Juli, welcome back to Focus on the Family.
Dr. Slattery: It’s so good to be with you guys. Good to see you.
Jim: It’s so natural to be at the table with you (laughs).
Dr. Slattery: I know. Like, I, I just wish everybody could have heard us joking off mic, you know?
Jim: (Laughs).
Dr. Slattery: Like, it’s just like old times.
Jim: We’ll save that for the extra, the B roll.
Dr. Slattery: There you go.
Jim: Right?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
John: Possibly.
Jim: So, uh, you can get a copy of the, uh, broadcast and we’ll touch on that.
John: For additional donation, yeah.
Jim: Uh, Juli, let’s start with your book title, Surrendered Sexuality. Uh, why surrender? Uh, surrender isn’t something we like to do as human beings.
Dr. Slattery: No, it’s not. Um, I, I’ve had the opportunity over the last 14 years or so to focus full-time on this topic of sexuality in the Christian life and the Christian church, and what I’ve found over those years is that, even as you mentioned, this is a sensitive topic and we tend to be a little squeamish about talking about it. And, uh, for a lot of Christians, we compartmentalize our sexuality and we try to control the behaviors. We try to, um, you know, just like, “I don’t wanna think about that.” Or, “I gotta stop doing this particular action that I know is wrong.” But when we look at scripture, what God really calls us to in every area of our life is to offer ourselves completely to Him, which is surrender. Which is to say, uh, “My body doesn’t belong to you. It was, I was purchased with the blood of Christ and I need my thinking transformed. I need to bring all my brokenness to you.” And so this book is really tackling a very different approach to dealing with topics of sexuality and struggles with sexuality than I think what we traditionally have, uh, have used in the past.
Jim: Yeah. I think it’s so important because sexuality is so powerful.
Dr. Slattery: It is.
Jim: I mean, it, it is deeply rooted in us, obviously, as human beings, and advertisers have leveraged this to the hilt, right?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: Remember the old saying, sex sells.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, I don’t think they’ve gotten away from that. I think they’re still using that formula because it does.
Dr. Slattery: Yep.
Jim: People are attracted to that.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And this idea that God created it. In your book, you mentioned a woman, I’m sure you’ve changed her name, Shelly.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Who, uh, had some abuse history –
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: – And some other things, and that issue of shame was certainly a part of her experience. Uh, how did God help her to surrender those areas to him?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. Uh, this is a real woman that actually went through the pilot study, uh, when I was writing this book. And as she was going through these chapters every week in this pilot study, she kept saying, “God did that for me and that’s what surrender looked like for me.” And she began to tell her story about how, uh, her brother was abusing her at home, uh, and –
Jim: When they were young?
Dr. Slattery: Yes, when they were little. And, um, she went to a vacation Bible school, accepted Jesus in her heart, went to Sunday school a few times after that, and got the courage to tell her brother, “You can’t do this to me anymore.”
Jim: Hm.
Dr. Slattery: But then she sort of buried that, and she didn’t really nurture her relationship with God growing up. Fast-forward, she gets married, and she continues to have a series of affairs. And she, her life is just falling apart, even though everything looks good on the outside, to the point where she’s suicidal. There’s so much shame and brokenness. And, um, she calls out to the Lord, “Lord, if you’re there, would you show me?”
And that day, a friend, kind of a, an acquaintance, invited her to church, and she’s like, “Okay, God, maybe you’re hearing me.” And that led her on a journey of learning what it really was not just to have Jesus as a savior, but to invite Him into the mess of the trauma, and the shame, and the sin, and the broken relationships. And so she’s been on a journey these last few decades of, “What does it look like for God to really restore and redeem the things I’ve experienced so that I can be whole?” Uh, and she’s just one example of the men and women that I’ve had a chance to meet and see what happens when we stop trying to just behave for the Lord, but we actually invite Him to be the power that brings change.
Jim: Yeah. And again, you know, we need to understand that here at Focus on the Family, I mean, this is like number one and two at the top of the list that people are calling for counseling every month.
Dr. Slattery: Right. Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we, we list those by the number of requests by topic. And so we know sexuality is right there.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: And so again, a good reason to address it rather than hide it under a rock and not develop your spiritual insights –
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: – When it comes to your God-given sexuality, right?
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, Juli, many Christians are asking the wrong question according to what you’ve written. Uh, you’ve said they ask what instead of why.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: Describe the difference between those two.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. So, you know, Christians are asking, “What can I do?” You know, like teenagers or young adults, singles are asking, “How far can I go? Is God okay if I do this?” Um, married couples are asking, you know, the questions like, “How often should we be having sex?” And it’s activity based. What are the rules?
Jim: Hmm.
Dr. Slattery: And we’re neglecting the deeper question of why does this matter in the first place? Why does God care about our sexuality? And I think, uh, particularly the younger generations are starting to ask that question, like, “Why would God care if I wanna marry another woman instead of a man? Why does that matter? And why does God care if I choose to look at pornography? I’m not hurting anyone. I don’t understand why these rules are there in the scripture.” And so what ends up happening is, I think, even for people that might embrace the rules, they have, uh, a suspicion about the goodness of God, that He’s keeping me away from something instead of ushering me into a more fulfilling experience of sexuality. Um, the narrative of our culture, that sex is about doing what you feel and about exploring yourself, is a much more powerful narrative than just saying, “The Bible says you shouldn’t do these things.”
And so a lot of where God has taken me in ministry is really digging into those deeper questions of, “Why did God create us as sexual people in the first place? Why does He care so much about this? Why is sex so powerful both for good and for bad in my life, and in marriage, and in relationships?” Um, and so, uh, really understanding that God doesn’t just want us to change our behavior, He wants us to have a renewed way of understanding our sexuality and the goodness of what He’s created.
Jim: You know, Juli, that is so true. You, uh, equate our obsession with sex in the culture with being on a junk food diet.
Dr. Slattery: Mm. Yeah.
Jim: How does that comparison line up?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. So, you know, God created sex, um, to be, as you mentioned earlier, a gift, really a celebration of covenant. And He created us, whether you’re single or married, with deep longings for intimacy, con… With connection, to be known, to be loved, to, to belong. And we live in a culture that really undermines intimacy. I’m not talking about sex, I’m talking about intimacy. We don’t build a community. We’re more tied to our devices than we are to people. We don’t even know how to give eye contact anymore. We don’t know how to be vulnerable. We don’t know how to stay in community with people and work through conflict. And so instead of intimacy, we are drawn towards sex, thinking that that will solve my loneliness problem. And sex outside of covenant, sex outside of intimacy is like eating junk food. Like it’ll fill you up very temporarily, but there’s no nutrition in it. There’s no substance in it. And you find yourself then craving more and more of it and getting sicker and sicker. And then if somebody offers you true intimacy, it’s like if you’ve been living on a diet of chips and donuts and someone offers you an apple and carrots. You’re like, “I don’t wanna eat that. Like that’s boring.”
Jim: (Laughs).
Dr. Slattery: “And, you know, my taste is not even ready to receive that.” And so we see this happening in marriages where both the man and the women, a lot of times, have been engaging in pornography and hook up sex, and they wanna honor God in their sex life, but their brains have been trained on junk sex. And now they are trying to figure out, “How do we actually develop true intimacy in our marriage?” And they have no taste for it. They don’t have the muscle to even engage in it. Um, so that’s some of how, I would say, there’s that parallel.
Jim: Yeah. You know, you discuss self-discovery in the book as well. And, you know, I’m thinking of the old scientists, you know? Newton, Pasteur, and others who said, “What motivates me in science is to discover what God has created.”
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That was the ethos back then, that it could be knowable because we have a creator that created the universe.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: Therefore, mathematics, astronomy, all those things. You can use those tools to know God’s created –
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: – Universe. In that same way, self-discovery when it comes to sexuality, you’re saying, um, if we don’t turn that toward ourselves as human beings, but we apply it to discovering God in our sexuality, that, that’s an interesting journey.
John: Hm.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. You know, I think part of it, and part of how I wrote in that in the book is just, um, understanding how we get caught in identity traps that keep us stuck in sexual sin.
Jim: Hm.
Dr. Slattery: And we have a culture that is obsessed with self-discovery. Um, in the absence of who God is, knowing who God is and finding our identity through Him, we have become a people who tell ourselves, “Look inward. Like, what do you want? What do you desire? What does your heart desire?” And sex is about the expression of what’s inside of me. And that is not what God created sex to be, and it’s not how God created us to understand who we are.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: Um, and so this is a real trap in particularly the 20s and 30s, um, young, young adults today, even within the church, of thinking that, “The most fulfilling life I can have is to look inward and then to have the freedom to express what’s inside of me.”
Jim: Juli, so often, as we talk to people, especially in this area of sexuality –
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: – It seems like we haven’t moved far from the garden.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: In other words, it’s me.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I want to know what satisfies me.
Dr. Slattery: Right.
Jim: And in a lot of ways, that was the battle that Adam and Eve had against Satan, right? You can, you can have all knowledge.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: You can be like God.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: And there’s a bit of that battle in our sexuality, right? That we become so me focused and self-focused that we forget what the bigger picture is here.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. Well, even if we look at the Garden of Eden, it didn’t even begin with Eve being me focused. It began with believing a doubt about the goodness of God, where Satan is saying, “You can’t trust God. Like He’s keeping you from something good and you can’t trust His Word. You know, surely you won’t die if you eat of this.” And you’re right, we see a real overlap with that with sexuality, where it doesn’t even begin with a me focus, it begins with, “I can’t trust that God is good. I can’t trust that God knows me, knows what I’m struggling with, really wants the best for me.”
Jim: Hm.
Dr. Slattery: “I believe that I am a better guide for what will be fulfilling than God is.” And then we also believe the lie that Eve did that, “Surely if I eat of this fruit, it’s not gonna hurt me. It’s not gonna hurt anyone. Like it’s, how can our… It’s two consenting adults. We love each other.” Or, you know, pornography, like, “It’s not hurting anyone.” And we doubt that there is a moral order that God has established and that if we step out of that moral order, uh, we’re doing something that ultimately is not going to be good for us or good for the people that we care about and love.
Jim: Hmm.
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Dr. Juli Slattery, and we’re talking about her book, Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. And, uh, again, we’ll invite you to stop by our website to get a copy of the book and to learn more, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And then, uh, Juli, there’s an interesting part in the book where you said, “Our sexuality can teach us about God.”
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
John: Kind of not, not –
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
John: – Discover myself –
Dr. Slattery: Right.
John: – But discover who God is. What are some examples of that?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. No, that’s really key, John. Like, ultimately, God didn’t give us our sexuality to express what we are feeling. He gave us our sexuality to reveal how He loves.
John: Hmm.
Dr. Slattery: And for a lot of people, that’s like a, “What?” You know, like, “How in the world does my sexuality reveal how God loves?” And, uh, we have to understand that God created sex to be linked with the, a concept we call covenant love, which is, um, what we call also a biblical marriage, that a husband and a wife, a man and a woman, um, leave their families of origin and they will to choose to say, “I give my life to you. Um, that we are one flesh now, uh, and that is to be till death do us part, that we are making a promise that we will do life together, we’ll be faithful to each other.” And as we mentioned earlier, sex is sort of the, the physical outworking of that. Now, why, how does that reveal God? Because we read in scripture, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament, that God made a similar covenant to His people. In the Old Testament, we see all of this bridal and sexual language in the prophets and even in the Torah, that would say, “God made a covenant with a nation of Israel that’s like a husband and a wife. And that covenant involves faithfulness, it involves intimacy, it involves, uh, enduring love.” And in the New Testament, we see that Jesus said, “I come to usher in a new covenant and it’s a covenant of my blood.” And then He calls Himself a bridegroom and we’re the bride. And there are all these parables that help us understand Jesus using the imagery of, uh, the virgin getting ready for marriage, getting ready, waiting for the bridegroom. And we’re told that there’ll be this union in heaven. And so what we have to understand is everything about our sexuality, everything about male and female, ultimately, were created to be a physical metaphor or a picture of a spiritual truth about the nature of how God loves us. Which again, even as I say that and describe it in two minutes, it’s really hard to wrap your mind around that, but once we start to teach this in the church and understand it and the, in the framework of marriage and teach it to our children, it changes the way we think about our sexuality.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: And all of a sudden we start to understand, “That’s why. That’s why God cares so much about sexuality. That’s why it’s so powerful for good or for evil.” And that’s why it’s so powerful in marriage and it reframes our understanding of the why.
Jim: Juli, you believe many Christians get tripped up on the concept of sexual purity.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, and you prefer sexual integrity.
Dr. Slattery: Right.
Jim: What’s the difference?
Dr. Slattery: The term sexual purity has come to represent, for a lot of people, a pass/fail test.
Jim: Hmm.
Dr. Slattery: Like, are you sexually pure or are you not? Well, did I follow the rules? And the more we think about sexual purity, the more, uh, I think we start to realize, first of all, it’s an impossible goal because Jesus defined our purity and our sexuality not just in what we do, but in what we think about. Is there anyone on the face of the earth who has never objectified somebody sexually or never lusted after someone? It’s like, we can’t. We can’t achieve that, but our purity actually comes through the finished work of Jesus Christ. And so I am pure not because I followed all the rules, I am pure because Christ did on my behalf and I receive His righteousness and His purity.
So that’s the first problem with purity, but the second problem with purity that, that term, is I don’t think it goes far enough into what God actually calls us to. He doesn’t call us just to avoid a certain act. He calls us to a wholehearted surrender of, “What does it look like, Lord, for me to honor you with my sexuality from cradle to grave? What does it look like for me to think about my sexuality in light of how you created it, not what the world is telling me? What does it look like for me even to not live my life in sexual shame because of what I’ve done in the past?” Like integrity means, if I believe Jesus has died and covered my sin, then I don’t live in shame. But how many Christians would say, “Yeah, I believe that, but I still live in shame because of my affair or because of my addiction.” And so there’s so much more that God is calling us to than just, “Avoid this act.” And I think when we just talk about sexual purity, people don’t know how to actually experience the power of God and the transformation of God, um, in their sexuality. And so I love that challenge of, “No, He’s calling us to integrity, which means I am an undivided follower of Christ. There’s not a pocket of my life where I give myself a pass. There’s not a territory of my heart where Satan is still reigning. It is, I am fully devoted to following Jesus, and that’s gonna be a journey. It’s gonna be a stumbling journey, but I am, by the grace of God, not gonna give up on that.”
Jim: You know, Juli, uh, right at the end here… And this has been really good input. I mean, it starts that process of thinking more deeply –
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: – About our, our God-given sexuality.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And to recognize it as that. And then how do we steward it?
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Which is really what you’re talking about.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: Cradle to grave.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. Right.
Jim: And it will be a journey. And it’s so core to us as human beings that we do stumble through this.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, to your point, it does reference the fact that nobody is sinless.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, this is an area of the human experience that I think everybody trips on.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: And you don’t get away.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-mm.
Jim: And that proves that God needed to do what He did –
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: – By giving us salvation through Christ and Christ alone.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: When someone is facing sexual temptation or maybe they’re in that recovery mode, um, which again, most of us will be, the healing process isn’t a one-time thing. And you, you do reference it as a journey.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: So what are those practical things that they can begin doing today to move toward healthy and godly sexuality?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. Yeah. So some of it, I think, is understanding that, for really good-hearted people who wanna follow Jesus, they recognize a sexual struggle or a temptation they have. I just recently was talking to a woman who is really struggling with sexual temptation, and she is like, “I don’t want this. I don’t want to fall into this. I don’t want the, the temptation.” But knowing a lot about her story in life, she also is dealing with deep, deep loss and grief.
Jim: Hmm.
Dr. Slattery: And it’s really complicated what she’s walking through, but if I just talk to her about, “Put the filter on your phone, and don’t look at it and, you know, don’t go out with this guy.” And yeah, and those things are good guardrails. We’re not addressing the real problem, which is she has deep wounds and deep loneliness that she’s experiencing. And I think traditionally, in the church, when we talk about sexual struggles and temptations, we, we go immediately to, “How do we get you to stop the behavior?” And we don’t recognize that the behavior’s being fueled by something deeper, that sin is always an illegitimate way to address legitimate needs.
Jim: Mm. That’s good.
Dr. Slattery: And so the healing process is not just saying, “Lord, would you help me to stop this?” But, “Why am I so drawn to this? And what are the wounds, and the longings, and the needs that are underneath this that I need help with?” Um, and so there are a couple things that I think all of us need, um, to pursue healing, and wholeness, and integrity. One of them, and this is really lacking in a lot of Christian communities, we need a safe place to be honest.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: Like, where are the safe places for you to talk about, uh, your abuse, your grief, your loneliness, your temptations? The second thing we need is we need a source of truth. What I’ve found is that whenever we’re struggling with sexual trauma, temptations, whatever it might be, there’s always lies underneath that that the enemy tells us. So it’s not just enough to hash it out in a community, where are we going for truth and how do we know what a lie is? Uh, and the third thing we need is we really need to understand that this is going to be a journey. We need people to journey with us. It’s not a one and done. It is, uh, a commitment to discipleship. And I’ve gotten to see over the last 14, 15 years that when we provide that for people, when we provide that kind of community, and truth, and process, uh, that they do grow and that God does begin to transform and bring freedom.
Jim: That’s so good. And this discussion has been so good. Let’s continue, if you are willing. Let’s stay with this and come back, uh, for another day and continue to talk about those things that help people to become more godly in their sexuality, which is the goal.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, you know, if you’re struggling in this area, call us. We have caring Christian counselors here at Focus on the Family. It would be a privilege for them to talk with you and help guide you, provide resources like Juli’s book, Surrendered Sexuality, as a tool to get you moving in a better, more godly direction in this area of your sexuality. And, uh, believe me, nothing’s gonna surprise them. We’ve been at it 48 years, so I think we’ve heard just about everything, and, uh, we want to engage you in that way.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Our caring Christian counselors are made possible by our generous donor community who, uh, sustain the ministry either on a monthly basis or with one-time gifts, and we’ll invite you to partner with us as we, uh, talk about and help people in this area of, uh, intimacy and life. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459, or check the website for details about our counselors and, uh, this great book, Surrendered Sexuality. Uh, our site is FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: And John, with those gifts, either a one-time gift or a monthly gift, uh, we’ll send a copy of this book, Surrendered Sexuality to you as our way of saying thank you for joining the ministry. You know, your ongoing support helps stabilize the budget and provides the resources that we need. Think of this, Juli. We’ve been measuring these things since you were here at Focus on the Family, but in the last 12 months, we’ve helped more than 530,000 husbands and wives build stronger, healthier marriages.
Dr. Slattery: Wow.
Jim: That’s pretty good.
Dr. Slattery: That’s amazing.
Jim: I’m excited about that.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: So join us, be part of the ministry, and again, you get a great resource in Juli’s book.
John: Once again, our number, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or donate at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And thanks for listening in to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back tomorrow as we continue the conversation with Dr. Juli Slattery, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
John Fuller: Welcome to another edition of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. As we return to a very serious topic impacting, uh, married couples of all ages and single adults too, and even families. Uh, we’re all affected by how we view our identity and our desires for intimacy. And whether or not we’re following God’s design for those. Uh, as you might suspect, this conversation isn’t suitable for younger listeners. We’ll recommend you, uh, have them occupied elsewhere. Uh, your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: Uh, John, last time we started a powerful conversation with Dr. Juli Slattery, one of our former colleagues here at Focus on the Family. And she has been laser-focused on human sexuality. Uh, when she was here at Focus, and then for the last 14, 15 years, that she’s been, uh, leading her own ministry in this area. Obviously, the world’s perceptions and practices of sex are a mess today, and we see it in every way. And even Christians are lacking a clear understanding of God’s purposes and design for our sexuality. But Juli has done great research and studied the topic for literally decades. And it always feels like a reunion when she comes back to visit and-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … uh, be part of the broadcast. If you missed the conversation last time, uh, get our Focus on the Family app. It’s the easiest way to do it. And you have access to all the broadcast and audio content, including podcasts.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And you can pick up our conversation from last time. Or you can, uh, find the program at our website or on YouTube.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But either way, it’s important to get that great content from last time.
John: Right. And, uh, we are really centering the conversations, uh, around Juli’s book called Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. And, uh, stop by our website to get a copy of the book and to learn more about Juli’s ministry and her other books as well. Uh, you’ll find all those details at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Juli, welcome back.
Dr. Juli Slattery: So good to be with you guys.
Jim: It’s good to-
Dr. Slattery: Thanks for having me.
Jim: … pick up the conversation-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … where we left off. Um, you know, let’s recap the primary theme of your book, which is this idea of surrender and what you mean by surrendered sexuality.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Especially for those that maybe haven’t caught day one.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So what I’ve found is that most of us as Christians, we tend to do one of three things with our sexuality. We either compartmentalize it, which is, “Uh, God doesn’t really care about that area. Like, I don’t wanna think about it.” Uh, we compromise and we just say, “In this area of life, I’m gonna just live the way I want to and kind of ignore what the scripture says.” Or we try to control, and it’s about trying to stop behaviors we know are wrong. And actually what we see in the scripture is that God doesn’t call us to do any of those things. He calls us literally to bring ourselves to Him as a, a living sacrifice, as an offering. And say, “God, I belong to you. Uh, my, all my messes belong to you. And you are the only one who can make me whole.” And that is a discipleship process, and it’s one that I think, in general, we accept in the church, but we don’t always apply it to sexuality. That following God with our sexuality is a complex, uh, journey of what it looks like to surrender all of who I am to Him.
Jim: Yeah. Sexual identity, uh, this is one that has captivated the culture and, you know, you see it in LGBTQ+ and all the pronoun thing and-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … you know, people are trying to place themselves in that space of, “This is my identity.”
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: “This is who I am.”
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, someone pointed out to me a while back, gnosticism, this isn’t new.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Gnosticism, 2,000 years ago when Jesus was walking the earth, the gnostics believed that you weren’t captivated by your gender-
Dr. Slattery: Right.
Jim: That you could rise spiritually or spirit being-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and you could have fluidity between your gender. I mean, this goes back to the Roman Empire.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So nothing new under the sun.
Dr. Slattery: No.
Jim: It’s just a re-emphasis that the culture has chosen to rise up once again and use this as the most important thing about who you are. So how is that approach of identity wrong?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. Well, some of it is, why do we think that? You know, like, what does it mean to be me? How do I define who I am? And y- how do you answer that question? Historically, from a Christian framework and a biblical framework, we answer that question by looking at our creator. Who does He say that I am? And what does it mean to be made of His image? And I define myself based on what He speaks, the truth of what He speaks. And the human condition is that we will always doubt what He says about us.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Slattery: Um, all of us do. I mean, I think the greatest work of discipleship is actually identity work-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: … because all of us at some level believe, “I am what I do. I am what people think of me. I am what I feel. And, uh, to follow Christ means that we have to put to death all those other identities so that we can fully live in who He says that we are.” Um, so that’s all background to say, why is this LGBT and sexual identity and gender identity thing taking off? Because we have discounted that first answer. That there is an objective truth about who I am. And, uh, I, I do have a gender that was given to me by God. And if I wanna understand myself, I have to know Him, and I have to learn from Him. Now, if you take that away, what’s left? It’s, well, you gotta figure it out. Like, you have to figure out who you are.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: Um, and so you have to understand that it’s not just the culture pushing this, it’s in the absence of God, and in the ab- absence of believing that there’s objective truth, we are going to fill in that gap with something.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: And I think, um, the, the gender identity and sexual identity is just one piece of it. We see it, everybody’s just desperate to figure out who they are-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Slattery: … and to be free from anything that keeps them from their authentic self. Uh, and so it’s a seeking that, as you’re mentioning, throughout all humanity, we will go through until we find that we really can rest in who God is and who He says we are.
Jim: You know, it’s so amazing with all of this, how it, it, there’s kind of this spiritual gravitational force that you cannot escape.
Dr. Slattery: No.
Jim: You can try what they tried 2,000 years ago and you c- but you can’t escape God’s principles. God has designed it. He’s outlined it. It is what is true and everything else is a lie.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we still just keep going at it. We can’t wise up-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … to what is true, and that’s Christ. I love that scriptural reference that you give in the book, 2nd Corinthians 5:17, to put kind of the capstone on this. “If anyone is in Christ, he’s a new creation. The old has passed away, behold, the new has come.”
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that means everything.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: Right?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. I mean, I tell people that’s the most important Bible verse about your sexuality, because becoming a new creation means that I now have the power through Christ to change my behaviors and my affections and my desires. But if I’m not made new in myself, then it’s all just human effort.
Jim: Mm-hmm. You know, Charlie Kirk, uh, of course was assassinated a while back, but I wa- I was flipping through YouTube watching his clips. And he had such a powerful exchange with a 20-year-old woman. You know, this is some campus-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I don’t remember the campus. And she, with great courage, got up there and said, you know, “I’ve, I felt like I was born in the wrong body-”
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “… since I was in third grade. I’m now considering whether I should do chemical treatment to try to correct that error. What would you say to me?”
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And his answer was so good.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: He said, “First of all, I wanna say some things to you that I doubt other people will tell you. And it’s this, ” Your issue is not in your body, it’s in your head.”
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “And you need to get help. People that love you and care about you, get to a caring Christian counselor who can help you-”
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “… not be at war with your body.”
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: “But for you to embrace what God has given you.”
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “So before you put chemicals into your body, think about getting help for your mind.”
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I thought, wow, what a statement-
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: … right?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. Boy, he, he had such a powerful way of articulating truth, um, and-
Jim: In a hostile environment.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: (Laughs).
Dr. Slattery: And he, and doing it … And this, I think this is so key, doing it with compassion, because that young woman who you’re referencing and so many others in our culture, they’re not the enemy. You know, they’re … we’re not, they’re not against us. They’re lost.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: Just like we’re lost without Christ, and they’re trying to find fulfillment and happiness, and this is what the enemy tells them.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: Is that you will find the greatest fulfillment by following your feelings and your desires, and they’re caught in the, uh, the captivity of those lies. The same way we have been and can be without Christ. And so I think it’s important to recognize that this is not just a culture clash, it is literally a spiritual battle. Where in the absence of Christ, Satan will fill in that space, and his lies are very captivating.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: Uh, and it is only through the power of Christ that we can see truth and embrace what is true.
Jim: Mm-hmm. And I think it’s so difficult because we tend to, in some way, the Christian community, and I think it’s almost like a magnetic pull. We tend to feel like our lives are together more than their lives-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and we do that pharisaical thing. And we start looking down on the other person. And man, Jesus was all over that, wasn’t-
Dr. Slattery: He was, yeah.
Jim: … He?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: And it, it, it … Have you found some ways, I mean, especially as a psychologist, as a Christian, to maintain that tenderness-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … for people who are, like, as you said, not the enemy, they’re POWs.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: Spiritually speaking.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: How do you maintain that tenderness for them-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that they’re not-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … wicked?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: But God has died for them-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … like He’s died for us.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. Yeah. I think one thing is we gotta continue to, um, ingest the life of Christ. You know, like just study the gospels and spend time with Jesus. And I’m … I’ve been doing a slow, slow walk through the book of John. I’ve gone through that book so many times. But if you ever notice the only people He gets mad at are the Pharisees who are putting rules on people and demanding, you know, you do this and that and judging them. And not seeing their own unrighteousness and their own need. He never gets mad at the tax collector or the prostitute or the woman caught in adultery, He meets them with compassion. And that convicts me every time because I’m like, if Jesus were here, who would he be speaking some harsh words to?
Jim: Well, and so often they’ll reference the overturning of the money-
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: … changers tables, but that was actually the priesthood.
Dr. Slattery: It was, yeah, it was-
Jim: He was going-
Dr. Slattery: … in the temple of God.
Jim: … after the Levites.
Dr. Slattery: He was … He would be in the church lobby overturning whatever-
Jim: Right.
Dr. Slattery: … you’re trying to make a prophet on there.
John: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: You know? So I, I think spending time in the life of Christ, um, learning from Him … But then I also think it’s having a commitment to, like, personal honesty and humility. And boy, if I ever get to that place, and sometimes I do, I will pray this prayer. “God, would you show me my sin?” And there are mornings when I pray that, and I-
Jim: (Laughs).
Dr. Slattery: … don’t get to 10:00 AM before I’m like, “Oh, Lord, have mercy. I’ve seen enough.”
Jim: Right.
John: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: And when God shows me all the stuff inside of me that nobody else sees, which is just as disgusting as a thing that people could see, it’s so humbling that I can’t go a moment without Him.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: You know, like, my thoughts are wrong, my heart is wrong, you know. It’s only Him that makes me righteous and He’s so gracious with me.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: Um, and so I think when we return to that again and again, it gives us compassion because I’m right there with you.
John: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, we’re hearing from the heart of Dr. Juli Slattery today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And, uh, she’s got a terrific book that is the basis for our conversation called Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. And I will encourage you to get more of Juli’s thoughts or broad perspectives and biblical understandings on this topic of sexuality. Uh, get a copy of the book from us at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Uh, Juli, moving on in the content of the book, you described the dangers of feeling discontented in terms of romantic relationships. And you refer to your own experience.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Now, this is where the authors-
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: … right out there exposed for all to see.
Dr. Slattery: Right.
Jim: So what was that experience? This would be more in a Christian context because you were raised in a Christian-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … family, right?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: Trying to do the right things.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: So what was that discontent like?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. So I wrote a little bit about what it was like to be single and to be in college and to see friends of mine going on dates. And it’s like, oh, it’s Saturday night and I don’t have a date. I don’t have a boyfriend. Like, what’s wrong with me? And if only I could get married? If only I could have somebody that loves me like that-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: … and never be lonely on a Saturday night? And then fast-forward, I was reflecting on maybe 10 years later, married, a couple kids. You know, another Saturday night being like, everybody wants something from me.
Jim: (Laughs).
Dr. Slattery: And I’m so exhausted. My house is full, but nobody really sees me.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: You know, if only I could have some time to myself. And I was just sort of like thinking about how I wasn’t content in either situation.
Jim: The pendulum of-
Dr. Slattery: There we go.
Jim: … discontent.
Dr. Slattery: And I think, you know, in this work of sexuality, I talk to single Christians, I talked to married Christians, divorced Christian, widowed Christians, and most of them wish they were in a different situation. The singles and divorced widowed are like, “Yeah, I just, I just wish I could find that person. I wish I could be married. I wish I wasn’t alone. I wish I could have sex,” whatever it is. And then you talk to the married woman or man and they’re like, “Yeah, this marriage is a lot of work and I’m not really fulfilled and I wish this and …”
And that’s, again, the human condition of we’re always looking for satisfaction and fulfillment, and even good gifts that can’t satisfy us. Um, and, you know, Paul, I love that Paul wrote to the Philippians, “I have learned the secret of being content in all situations.” And I love that, first of all, he says it’s a secret that not many people know it. But second of all, that he had to learn it. Because I don’t think any of us naturally, even as believers, know how to be content in any situation. Uh, know how to be content in any marital status, know how to be content, uh, in difficult relationships. And what Paul’s secret is, is he says, “I can do all things through Christ to strengthens me.”
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Slattery: And earlier in the book, Paul of Philippians, Paul is writing about how, like, nothing compares to knowing Christ. I wanna know Him. And that’s why the subtitle of this book is How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Slattery: A lot of our sexual struggles, a lot of our marriage struggles are that we’re living with a secret phrase in our mind of, “If only.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: “If only I had married that other person. If only I was single, if only I were married, then my life would be okay.” And what Paul is teaching us there is that the if only has to be, if only I knew Christ like He wants me to know Him. If only I was abiding in Him, I could find contentment in every, every situation.
Jim: Yeah. I say this tongue in cheek, but that reminds me of the great theologian, Irma Bombeck.
Dr. Slattery: (Laughs).
Jim: (Laughs). Who once said, “The grass isn’t greener on the other side. It’s greener where you water it.”
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: Isn’t that a great statement?
Dr. Slattery: It is.
Jim: I love that statement-
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: … ’cause it’s so true.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: Plant yourself and water, and if it’s your marriage or your singleness or-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … whatever it might be, it’s be content in all things, right?
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: It’s kind of that same attitude. Uh, Juli, I was intrigued by your reference in the Old Testament about the prophet Habakkuk.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: There’s many ways you could say that.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs) But, uh, what can Habakkuk, I’ll say it that way-
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: … this time, uh, teach us about having contentment, even when our longings for intimacy or connection haven’t been fulfilled.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. This is something that I learned from my friend and mentor Linda Dillow. She wrote about this in one of her books, and Habakkuk has been one of her heroes in the scripture. Um, but she writes and teaches about how Habakkuk, who is in a situation of great turmoil in his country. It was just when the Babylonians were going to be taking over Israel. And he’s really anxious about this, which we all would be. And he’s crying out to the Lord, and he says, “Even if, you know, even if the worst happens, even if, uh, you don’t save us from this capture. Even if, you know, there’s no more grapes on the vine, I will still exalt in the Lord.”
And it’s about really changing our if-onlys to even-ifs. You know, for the single Christian who’s really struggling, loneliness is real.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: For the divorced Christian who’s dealing with betrayal, deep wounds, like those are real. For the married Christian who doesn’t feel seen or fulfilled in marriage, like those are, those are real longings. And it’s not to rose colored glasses this, but to get to the place where we have such an intimacy with God that we can say, “Even if this doesn’t change, I know, God, that you are enough. And I know that you are sus- you will sustain me.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: Like that is what Paul is calling us to and what Jesus ultimately wants to give us is not answer our prayer for the person who’s gonna solve our problem, but that we would know in, in such a way that even if this teenager doesn’t change, even if this husband doesn’t change. Or even if I stay single for the next 10 years, I don’t know how I’m gonna make it through, but God, I do know that you’re gonna be enough.
Jim: Mm-hmm. So what that says is trust and reliance upon the Lord for your circumstances.
Dr. Slattery: Right.
Jim: Right?
Dr. Slattery: Right? but-
Jim: I mean-
Dr. Slattery: … here’s-
Jim: … easy to say-
Dr. Slattery: But here’s the thing, Jim, we can’t trust somebody we don’t know.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: And there are a lot of Christians who are trying to trust a God they don’t know.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Wow, that is so true.
Dr. Slattery: And so until we go deep in intimacy with Him, we’re not gonna trust Him.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Slattery: And that’s why Paul says really the secret that he found was knowing Christ in such a way that everything else felt like rubbish.
Jim: Right.
Dr. Slattery: Uh, and into-
Jim: Whether it’s the palace-
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: … or the pauper’s house.
Dr. Slattery: Or his, his status as a Pharisee-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Slattery: … or whatever it was, he said, “All of it now I consider rubbish in comparison with knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.” And, you know, it’s all there in this scripture, but the secret really of all these sexual struggles is really we have to know Jesus in such a way-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Slattery: … that He does change everything for us.
Jim: Yeah. And when you do that, your life changes.
Dr. Slattery: It does.
Jim: I mean, that’s what’s amazing. Uh, I gotta get a twofer as we begin to circle the end of the program-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and that twofer for me is we certainly can make an idol out of marriage.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, we’re Focus on the Family. The very term sounds like we’re making an idol out of family, but we are a family ministry-
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: … so we’re gonna concentrate on marriage and parenting and, you know, address single issues when we can, etc. But really both marriage and singleness can become idols.
Dr. Slattery: Right. Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, you know, right now, I think we have more of an issue with an idol of singleness-
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Whether that’s because of fear or whatever. But describe idols-
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: … within the context of relationship, marriage, single, all of it.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. Tim Keller did such a great job in this with his book, Counterfeit Gods. And he really has influenced my thinking on this a lot. But an idol, and he says this, like, idols are usually not bad things, they’re actually good things.
Jim: Hmm.
Dr. Slattery: Uh, they’re good things, good gifts that we begin to rely on as our very survival. And so marriage is a great thing. Uh, you know, romance is a great thing. Sex is a great thing. Like these are all good gifts that God has created, but He didn’t create them to be our salvation. And this is when we start getting into, um, that phrase, “If only.” Like, “If only I had this relationship. If only …” Uh, you know, some men will feel like if only my wife were more interested in sex, everything would be okay. Um, and so an idol is something that you feel like you can’t survive without. And so, yes, that can be singleness. I need my independence. Uh, I wanna be able to travel and I don’t wanna be accountable to anybody. But also can be marriage where, you know, my whole goal in life is to have a great marriage and have a great family. God never tells us to have that goal.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: He has us … He tells us to have the goal of loving Him and loving others. And so that means that if you’re married, you’re gonna work on loving your spouse and raising your children, uh, in the wisdom of Christ. But sometimes, I know I’ve done this in my life, we have the wrong goals. God never called me to have a great marriage. He called me to be a faithful wife.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: And to leave the results in His hands, and to give Him glory. And so I think it’s, it’s putting good things and good gifts in the light of, “Thank you, Lord, for this. I will steward it well, but it is not what I’m living for.”
Jim: Mm-hmm. And that theme, I, I wanna punch that again because it’s so critical that the idea that surrendered sexuality is surrendering to love.
Dr. Slattery: Hmm.
Jim: So I want you just to take a moment-
Dr. Slattery: Yeah.
Jim: … and expand on that concept-
Dr. Slattery: Right.
Jim: … because that is your landing place. That’s what the book’s about.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah. So the only way that I can really surrender my sexuality is to really and truly surrender to the love of Christ. Nothing else changes us.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Slattery: Nothing else does. And so when we talk about this being a journey, it is a journey of, like, I … as you mentioned, I grew up in a Christian home. The very first thing I learned as a Christian, as a little girl, Jesus loves you. It’s the first thing you learn as a believer. But I think it’s also the last thing I’ll learn. Like, I’m … on my deathbed, and when I see Christ face to face, I think I’m gonna be so overwhelmed by how little I understood of His love.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Slattery: And the, the pinnacle, the goal of this Christian walk is that we would know the love of Christ and love Him and love others. And I think as a, a new, a younger Christian, I thought, “Oh, I got love, like, I got that one worked out. Let’s work on some of the better things.”
Jim: (Laughs).
Dr. Slattery: But it’s, it’s ultimately, do I know the love of Christ? And is the Holy Spirit loving through me? And that’s it.
Jim: Yeah. This has been outstanding, Juli, and you’ve done such a great job. Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. And let me just say, again, we mentioned this, but it shows up in the data.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: People that describe themselves as convictional Christian, reading the Word, praying regularly, going to church regularly. Uh, it’s not an everything. It’s not a rules-based thing. It’s just a depiction of, of your practices.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that tends to demonstrate that you’re, you’re trying, you’re on the journey, you’re stumbling, but you’re making progress. And, uh, God has certainly called you to apply this to human sexuality, and what a messy space that is? So God bless you-
Dr. Slattery: (Laughs).
Jim: … for getting in there and talking to us about this topic and writing about it, and giving your life to it, really.
Dr. Slattery: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s what you’ve been doing for decades now. So thank you for that, Juli. And thanks for being with us.
Dr. Slattery: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It’s a joy.
Jim: And, uh, as we often do, be part of the ministry. Make a monthly pledge of any amount to Focus on the Family, and we will thank you by sending you a copy of Juli’s book. Here’s why your ongoing support is so helpful. A longtime listener named Kim discovered her husband had a pornography addiction, and she was devastated, understandably. She considered divorce, but by God’s grace and with help from counselors on our website, Kim and her husband are still together, and that puts a smile on my face. They fought through it. Kim said, “Thanks to your resources, encouragement and biblical teaching, our marriage is growing stronger every day.” And that is awesome. That’s what it’s about. It’s not confronting problems, it’s how to overcome those problems in Christ. It’s only through the generosity of friends like you that we’re able to have a long-term impact on someone like Kim and her marriage, and so many others like her. So your monthly pledge goes a long way in keeping this ministry going. So can we count on you to be a monthly supporter or to provide a one-time gift to help this ministry impact more people like Kim?
John: Yeah, either way, monthly or one-time gift, uh, donate today when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And when you get in touch, please remember that we have caring Christian counselors here who would be, uh, pleased to give you a call back and to talk through, uh, what’s going on and listen well. They’ll pray with you, they’ll perhaps direct you to some resources. And if you need, uh, they can connect you with someone in your area where you can have an ongoing counseling relationship. Again, our number 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
