Focus on the Family Broadcast

Melissa Ohden: It makes me tear up, because it means so much that when my life is spared, my children’s lives are able to come, right? And future generations, God willing, and, you know, my kids are now 15 and nine and my kids know the truth about the abortion. And if my kids were here today, they would tell you that they had the same right to live as anybody else and they are grateful that my life was spared so that they could live.

John Fuller: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and today we’re returning to the very important topic of protecting every child, every unborn child. Your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller and, uh, let me note that this program will contain some mature elements that, uh, are around the topic of abortion so keep that in mind as we begin.

Jim Daly: You know, John, I think at the core I feel, you know, truth seeking is, is core to the Christian. And I think why I’m so excited to talk to Melissa and Priscilla is it’s evidence in your faith. It’s hard to, uh, dispute their existence. I mean they are here.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, they… In Melissa’s case survived an abortion. Y- you got to deal with that. You know, she is a thriving adult now. She has children. She’s married and she could have been never here.

John: Hmm.

Jim: And you, you have to grapple with that. I would encourage those who are pro-choice to think about that, and as you hear Melissa and Priscilla’s story this time to really lean into that and think about it. And, uh, we can’t put more evidence forward. We care about you. We love you even if you oppose life, we want you to hear the story. And what’s our goal? That your heart will change.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That you will see the gift of God. That God’s gift for us is life and we want to share that with you. So there’s no, uh, them and us kind of attitude in this. We want you to come to God’s truth is our goal.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s our heart. And, uh, tears me up just thinking about that. And we are going to continue the discussion with Melissa and Priscilla. If you missed last time, uh, get the download, you can go to the website. John will give those details.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Get the smartphone app. You can have access to everything, uh, but listen to it because I think, again, if you’re someone on the fence or you’re a believer that’s somewhat quiet about this, it’ll equip you to talk more winsomely, forcibly about the issue of life.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Priscilla Hurley is a veteran health educator with experience in family planning and pregnancy counseling and, uh, maternal child health. She’s also a former abortion worker. Uh, Melissa Ohden is an author and speaker and is on the board of directors for the Vitae Foundation. Uh, Melissa founded the Abortion Survivors Network and has written a book that really is the basis for our conversation today, Abortion Survivors Break Their Silence. It is a powerful book. And we, uh, encourage you to get a copy of it from us here at Focus on the Family. The details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Melissa and Priscilla, welcome back.

Priscilla Hurley: Thank you.

Jim: Let me ask you this, um, in terms of that journey of healing, I mean you’re a child who, uh, attempted abortion happened. Your mom was participating and I know you talk so positively about the relationship you have with your birth mom and… but there is that I, I would think for some survivors there’s always that, or can be, that thought of, “But she was willing to give me up.” How do you, how do you heal that, that specific thought? That even though I love her, she was willing to take my life.

Melissa: I was talking to one of our young survivors about this the other day. So one of the young ladies I meet with pretty regularly is she just turned 12.

Jim: Ah.

Melissa: She survived a late term abortion at 28 weeks-

Jim: Wow.

Melissa: … in Serbia. And I can share this story because her adopted family is public with parts of that story. They actually were in some videos that we shared in our Awareness Month back in September that baby survive abortions. That’s part of what we have to do as an organization is keep putting it out there, keep educating, keep storytelling. But I was meeting with this young lady and she was asking me so specifically about a video she had seen of me with my birth mom.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: And so when we talked about that, we talked about that kind of complicating emotion and thought-

Jim: Sure.

Melissa: … of here I was when I, I shot video with my birth mom, we were in a hotel room together for the first time ever, and it was during a period of time where, you know, all those years ago, she would have been in the hospital going through the abortion procedure. And that was one of those when I woke up in the middle of the night and I looked at her and I went, “Oh, my gosh. This is so intense. This is just wild.” But at the same time when you can take a deep breath and look at it and go, “Man, but isn’t God so good?”

Jim: Hmm. Yeah. You don’t have to hold that against your birth mom.

Melissa: Yeah.

Jim: So you got to let that go.

Melissa: Yeah. And you-

Jim: And that circumstance was temporary. Priscilla, let’s come back to you. Uh, last time we talked, uh, you know, kind of at the 40,000-foot view about your experience and you yourself survived an abortion, your twin was taken in a DNC in Mexico, you survived it. You later had two abortions yourself. You ended up in the abortion industry working at a clinic, um, but let’s pick it up there. Uh, what was that transition experience like?

I mean you’re experiencing these things then you say, yes, to working at a clinic. You’re seeing women have the abortions, just the emotion of that, what was that like to be part of it now?

Priscilla: Yeah. Well, I mean I thought I was helping women. It’s the honest truth. Um, yeah.

Jim: Well, and some people would say, “Well, you were.”

Priscilla: Right.

Jim: But talk about-

Priscilla: Well, that’s what I believed at that time. And I, uh, I think Melissa talked a lot about the impact of the survival part of it because it really kind of traumatized me so much that it played out in my life that way.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Priscilla: And working in the industry… I mean, yeah. I, I can’t really explain or fully understand why I went there except for that, that seemed like the answer at the time. And I was there for 3 years. It was, uh, a women’s clinic in San Francisco and, uh, they did, you know, they made a lot of money doing abortions.

Jim: Yeah.

Priscilla: And, um, I was not in the lab, thankfully. I didn’t have to undo any of that or put the, you know, products of conception is what they called it, but, you know, there’s just a lot of dark and deceptive things that go on there. A lot of lying. A lot of not truth-telling.

Jim: Yeah.

Priscilla: Um, I was in a, a session with the women and a woman actually asked if it was killing, and I didn’t know how to answer that. So the director happened to be there and she said, “Well, if you think killing a fly is killing, it’s the same.” See, it’s that value, that devaluing-

Jim: Dehumanizing. Yeah.

Priscilla: Yeah. The dehumanizing. And I… it… when I think back on… I’m glad God let me remember that because that woman was trying to fight for her baby.

Jim: Yeah. She was struggling with-

Priscilla: She was fighting. She-

Jim: … am I doing the wrong thing?

Priscilla: Right. And they aren’t gonna hear in the abortion industry the… any truth about that and they aren’t gonna be met in their needs like that. And I think part of my story (laughs) is too, I’m kind of a poster child of what happens when you don’t have support? We talked about support and your, um, initiative to help pregnancy centers.

Jim: Option Ultrasound.

Priscilla: Yeah. I mean had… when I was… the second abortion I had, had somebody supported me, I probably wouldn’t have said yes to that because-

Jim: Right.

Priscilla: … my boyfriend wanted it. I didn’t really, but I didn’t feel I had a choice, you know?

Jim: Yeah.

Priscilla: And, um-

Jim: Sure.

Priscilla: … so, yeah.

Jim: I was thinking of those clinics though and that, again, I started by saying, you know, our hearts need to be open to these people and you express that beautifully in the book, Melissa. And, you know, no one’s beyond the reach of God, but it is… I mean it is a quandary to understand this logic, the way they hide, the way they manipulate, which, you know, is really fruit of the enemy.

Melissa: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jim: I mean when you look at it, deception-

Melissa: Yes.

Jim: … these are all things that Satan is working-

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … in this world through every human being, you know? And so when you’re looking, when you’re looking at it from that perspective, I mean they are saying clump of tissue.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Don’t even think of it as a baby. Call it a fetus. There’s a whole glossary of terms that they develop to dehumanize and, uh, uh, that’s what we’re fighting against.

Melissa: Yeah.

Jim: But the woman knows. She really does know in her heart.

Melissa: Hopefully, yeah. I… Can I just say one thing about my own personal journey that is, um… Because there was an abortion attempt on my life, I, I really struggled with knowing my own humanity as a child.

Priscilla: Hmm.

Jim: Hmm. How did that play out? What did that look like?

Melissa: Well, I just wasn’t wanted.

Jim: And you felt it?

Melissa: I felt it.

Jim: Yeah.

Melissa: And so if you’re not valued as a human being, if you’re not cherished… You know, and I’m talking about from my mother, basically.

Jim: Yeah.

Melissa: You know, then (laughs) it’s not far to think that, “Oh, if I get pregnant that’s not a valuable person.” You know, I mean it’s just kind of that void, that vacuum of a, of a-

Jim: Yeah.

Melissa: … value for life. And it’s unfortunate ’cause even, uh, before my mom died, I mean when you talk about closure, I mean she never said she was sorry. That’s okay. You know, I mean-

Jim: No. But I get it.

Melissa: But, you know-

Jim: That’s like, “Whoa.”

Melissa: … and I… she, she was not able to, um, really come clean with the trauma that caused-

Jim: Yeah.

Melissa: … in her own life, right?

Jim: And I think, you know, you as survivors of abortion, uh, it’s right in front of you, but, you know, so much of what I’m hearing you say and express fits into other, um, fragmented relationships with parents-

Melissa: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jim: … kids that don’t feel loved-

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … through divorce, through whatever, through a father never giving you time-

Melissa: Right.

Priscilla: Right.

Jim: … at all.

Melissa: Yes.

Jim: But right here at the core when it comes to, uh, your mother or father or both either denying or giving you life. Wow. I mean that’s right at the core.

Melissa: Can… One of our survivors said something to me once and I keep repeating it because she said, “I wasn’t born for my mother. I was born for God.”

Jim: Wow.

Melissa: And-

Jim: That’s true for everybody. (laughs)

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: I mean, you know, and I, I think that-

Jim: Yeah.

Melissa: … when I was saved, I got pregnant the third time and I decided to have my son-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: … uh, and when I was saved four months after he was born, I finally came into contact with that love that I was needing so much, you know?

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: So he has a plan and, you know.

Jim: Yeah. That’s so beautiful.

John: Yeah. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and our guests today are Melissa Ohden and, uh, Priscilla Hurley. We’re talking about a, a very heavy topic, obviously, and we’re here for you if we’re stirring up emotions, if this is a challenge for you, uh, please know that we have caring Christian counselors here and it’d be a privilege for us to connect you with one of them. Uh, we’re a phone call away, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. If you’d like to learn more about the story, uh, that Priscilla and Melissa are sharing, their own personal stories, get a copy of Melissa’s book. It’s called Abortion Survivors Break Their Silence. We’ve got details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Priscilla, I just wanna put the kind of the icing on the cake and we, you said it very quickly, but you did come to Christ.

Priscilla: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jim: Just describe the circumstances of that a little deeper, uh, you had your second abortion, you’re pregnant the third time, how was God moving in your heart specifically related to your pregnancy?

Priscilla: Yes. Well, I almost died in a car accident in San Francisco and I think it was his way of correct coursing me in a sense.

Jim: Wow.

Priscilla: And I was touched by an angel during that car accident. Uh, there’s more detail about that but, um, it was after that, that I started seeking truth-

Jim: Ah.

Priscilla: … and I started pursuing a purpose of my life. I didn’t know it was God I was going to-

Jim: Hmm.

Priscilla: … but it was like I was discontent working in the abortion industry. I was discontent with being in this relationship. And I, uh, several… Uh, well, it was a couple years later, I went to graduate school. And then I got an opportunity… after this accident I got an opportunity to go to rural Alaska to work. So God just really took me out of that circumstance-

Jim: Huh.

Priscilla: … and put me in the beautiful surroundings of Bristol Bay, Alaska, which was extremely beautiful.

Jim: Yeah.

Priscilla: I had Christian friends for the first time and when I got pregnant there for the third time, because I never… I didn’t change my habits-

Jim: Right.

Priscilla: … you know, um, of seeking love in all the wrong places, (laughs) so to speak, but I did get pregnant. I, um, had my son and I had Christian friends that were probably praying for me. And I think that was when I started to realize my need for Christ. And, uh, really to surrender. I had made a mess of my life and, and I needed his help and been with him ever since so-

Melissa: (laughs)

Priscilla: … that was… uh, my son is 42. (laughs)

Jim: You know what? I’m just thinking and trying to feel what people are hearing right now and, you know, some people, hopefully, few, but some may be saying about that, that you were living that life and, you know, some people will try to even connect guilt to that spiritually, but I… you know, the, the way you say it, it’s the abundance of God’s love for us.

Melissa: Yes.

Jim: You think he doesn’t know what sin is, you, you think or we portray that he’s some older grandfather that is totally out of touch with our desires in this life. He created those.

Melissa: Yeah.

Jim: He wants them in a certain context called marriage, but we’re not surprising him-

Melissa: Yeah.

Jim: … with the way we behave, but nonetheless, he loves us.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And is there for us. And man, what a good moment to say to the listener, the viewer. If you’re in that guilt-ridden place, get in touch with us.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We want to introduce you to Jesus, (laughs) because that love is there for you. This is not a guilt trip. This is a, a way to connect you to God and God cares so much for you and, uh, we would love to illustrate that to you and help you in that journey. Melissa, um, you have a powerful story about Dr. Hammond-

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … who I think is the one on your board now-

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … who used to be an abortionist. Here’s a great example of what I was just saying.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Describe his transition and what happened.

Melissa: Yeah. God meets us in the most unexpected places, doesn’t he?

Jim: Amen.

Melissa: And Dr. Hammond is such a great example of that. He is very forthright that he was performing abortions and like so many in that position, he learned very quickly that even though it might have made him a bit uncomfortable, it also paid the bills. And-

Jim: Hmm.

Melissa: … you know, gratefully, his experience is like many abortionists in terms of performing an abortion and not knowing how far along someone really was. I mean that’s part of the reason why survivors exist is that most of the time abortionists aren’t providing adequate exam so they don’t know how far along a woman is.

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: A woman doesn’t know how far along she is. And so, right, God creates these miracles in those moments, but that’s certainly what Dr. Hammond went through is, you know, that final abortion, he was performing it, didn’t know how far along she was and felt baby kick. And what I love is when I first got to know Dr. Hammond, the timeline of that matches up so well with actually when I survived as well. So, you know, God was intervening in my life. God was working in his life. I mean that’s what that… that’s what God wants us to see that he’s performing miracles every single day.

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: And that’s what I want the world to understand too, is when they’re denying abortion survivors, they’re denying God’s miracles. They’re dehumanizing the women and the men who are going through this. They’re dehumanizing families who live with this. They’re dehumanizing abortion workers and abortionists.

Jim: Absolutely. That in that context, the fear and trauma that surrounds a woman in this moment, you know, with or without the boyfriend, the husband participating, so often men are the ones forcing this abortion, because they’re pushing their girlfriend or pushing their wife, uh, in that direction because of their own inconsistencies and fears, right? We can’t afford another child, all those things. So I mean when you’re making this decision, it goes out to a large number of people as you said earlier. But in that context, speak to that fear and trauma. To me, one of the things that I’m learning here at Focus and we’ve got that great series with Ray Vander Laan, That the World May Know, uh, Bible scholar. You know, he talks about sin entering the world and chaos entering the world.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And the two places I see the greatest chaos is foster care and abortion.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Because it’s just… it, it, it’s counterintuitive to our heart. We know we should let a baby live-

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but we, we just sweep these things on under the rug, so to speak. We don’t talk about it that we’re taking a baby’s life. A lot of women, I’m sure listening, experienced abortion and they haven’t talked about it with anybody or very few people. And so describe that, that environment of fear and, uh, trauma that the abortion industry plays in. And the other thing, if I may say, the thing… I’ve met with some of those folks in that industry and the thing that, that bugs me deeply, they are profit motivated.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Priscilla: Oh, yeah.

Jim: The fact that they should be at the table debating the aspect of life, to me, is abhorrent.

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Like when you’re making $700 off an abortion, you have forfeited your right to talk about what is fair and appropriate for women-

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … because it’s obvious, it’s about the money. And I’ve heard it from them directly-

Priscilla: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … and it’s offensive.

Priscilla: Yeah.

Jim: So… (laughs)

Priscilla: And they teach in the public schools on (laughs) sexuality so that’s another story, but, um, yeah. So it’s not part of their business plan to, to tell the truth so…

Melissa: Well, and I could share story after story of babies that I know who have survived abortions and the abortionist response to that, and a lot of it is money-driven. Jim just like you’re talking about. I can think of one particular baby that was born during the pandemic that we were contacted about and it is a notorious abortionist. If people knew who he was, it would not surprise them at all. He’s in the news a lot. But this mom actually went through the abortion, was going through lots of crisis, didn’t have support, right? Every, every sort of expectation the world places that says, “Oh, yes, that’s definitely somebody who should have an abortion.” That was her. And during this abortion procedure, she stopped it, because of pain. And the abortionist response to that was so telling because it was, “Listen, if I find out that you were further along than I thought you were, you’re gonna owe me more money.

John: No way.

Melissa: And just because you aren’t finishing this abortion doesn’t mean you’re not gonna pay me.”

Jim: Wow. There’s tenderness.

John: My goodness.

Jim: I mean that’s ridiculous.

Melissa: That baby is alive, doing well. I mean this is the untold story. This is why abortion survivors have to break their silence, because this is how we end this cycle that has happened for so long-

Jim: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Melissa: … in our culture.

Jim: We talked about a little bit about generational impact, that kind of thing.

Melissa: Yeah.

Jim: Um, I think, Melissa, you have a story about your, your daughter. Um, describe the joy you and your daughter share in the story, which is amazing, you’re pulling something so positive out of something so negative.

Melissa: Yeah. It makes me tear up-

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: … because it means so much that when my life is spared, my children’s lives are able to come, right? And future generations, God willing, and, you know, my kids are now 15 and nine and my kids know the truth about the abortion. And if my kids were here today they would tell you that they had the same right to live as anybody else and they are grateful that my life was spared so that they could live. And my oldest daughter was born in the same hospital where I was supposed to die. I mean that’s the lengths to which God will-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: … go to-

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: … to show us his plans of restoration in our world.

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: And so because one generation is survives more generations are able to come, but that’s what has to happen is-

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: … we have to break that generational cycle in families and it starts with one person being bold enough to heal and one person being bold enough to speak the truth and change themselves and set an example for everybody else. And, you know, for me, that’s a great opportunity I’ve been given is I’ve broken that generational curse in my, my birth mother’s life and their family. It ended with me, and for me, that is the most powerful thing I ever could have done with my life.

Jim: Oh, and for your children-

Melissa: Yeah.

Jim: … to share in that. Yeah.

John: Wow.

Jim: I wouldn’t be here without you being here. Huh. That’s self-evident, right? Priscilla, you also have a generational story about your grandchild.

Priscilla: I do.

Jim: What’s-

Priscilla: Well, I do. And I, I love that breaking that generational curse, because that’s what abortion survivors do, you know-

Jim: Hmm.

Priscilla: … over our families. And I think women who have had abortions need to vocalize and break through and speak out. But, yeah, my grandson who, um, I was just really proud of him because he is a Army Reserve and after basic he went into his training which was to be a chaplain’s assistant and they separated them by pro-abortion, anti-abortion-

Jim: Hmm.

Priscilla: … in the classroom because they said, “You have to deal with this issue in the, the chaplain world.” But he had an opportunity in his anti-abortion side, which is where he went.

Jim: Let’s just say pro-life side.

Melissa: (laughs)

Priscilla: Pro-life. Yes. (laughs)

Jim: Forget that language.

Priscilla: Well, yeah, but even abortionists will sometimes say they’re, they’re for life, you know?

Jim: Yeah.

Priscilla: The pro-choice people, but, um, he had a chance to say to everybody in the room, “You know what? If my great-grandmother’s abortion was successful, I wouldn’t be here today.” And I think that gave everybody a different thing to think about.

Jim: Sure. I mean-

Priscilla: Yeah.

Jim: … it’s self-evident.

Priscilla: Right.

Jim: That’s what’s so amazing with that story.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Priscilla: So, yeah.

Jim: Let’s move and grab just a couple of practical points as we wind up today. And again, it’s been great having you with us, uh, yesterday and today, but for our audience who wants to take a step forward and get involved in their community, these are, you know, these are big things, but it should be a motivating incentive to save a baby’s life, to help a mom-

Priscilla: Right.

Jim: … and maybe her boyfriend or husband, whatever it might be. But how would you encourage someone to do that?

Priscilla: I would say just find where, you know, pray about it and find out where you couldn’t plug in somewhere.

Jim: Maybe volunteer at a pregnancy resource-

Priscilla: Yes.

Jim: … uh, clinic would be a great start.

Priscilla: Great start.

Jim: Uh, they’re in most, uh, communities now and-

Priscilla: Sidewalk counseling, you know?

Jim: … they’re always looking for help at the clinic so that’s good, but any other, uh, specific, Melissa?

Melissa: I don’t wanna sound like a broken record, but it really starts with ourselves and looking to the ways that we need to find healing. And then being willing to walk that out on our families. I think of it sort of, you know, like that tree trunk. You start with that circle in the middle, and then you keep working further out. So we have to work on ourselves and work on our family. And then move further out into our community. Don’t forget things are important locally, things are important and happening more in our states than ever. I think it’s easy to get hyper focused on national things, certainly that’s what the media likes to get our attention with, and we should care about them, but we have to realize that it starts much closer to home.

Jim: Yeah.

Melissa: And we have to be willing to be uncomfortable.

Jim: Absolutely. (laughs)

Melissa: See it. Acknowledge it. Let it touch our hearts, read books, listen to interviews, get uncomfortable, and then let God move you from that place.

John: Hmm.

Jim: That’s usually where God is.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: In the uncomfortable. And boy, I think our culture is about to experience that. Engage is what I’m hearing-

Priscilla: Yeah. That’s right.

Jim: … the Lord say.

Melissa: Mm-hmm. That’s Right.

Jim: Melissa and Priscilla, this has been so good. Thank you for spending the time, for being here with us, for writing this great book, Melissa, to help people be more aware. And again, I know we have a variety of listeners and viewers and I do know people in the abortion industry, uh, peer in and listen to the program from time to time. I hope you’ll take that challenge, uh, just read the book, get a perspective that’s outside your own. And I have met with people in the abortion industry, I do think they believe they’re trying to help, but I just think there’s a better way to go. And, uh, choosing life is better for everyone. I remember saying to a clinic, uh, person, an abortion clinic. I said, “What’s your average, uh, revenue for an abortion?” $600. I said, “How much do you get for an ad op option placement?” She said, “Zero.” And I said, “What if I could double your money? I’ll pay you 1200 for an adoption placement.” And she said, “Maybe that could work.”

Melissa: Yeah. Right.

Jim: Let’s just think creatively.

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Jim: The, the, the abortion issue has been around since Jesus. The Romans encourage the discarding of unwanted children. Abortion is not new. They took pharmakeia, look in the book of John.

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Women were encouraged to induce, uh, labor and have an aborted baby.

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

Jim: This is not new. This is the condition of the human soul to discard unwanted children. We, as the Christian community, stood in the gap and took them in to our own homes as our own. And I think the time is again for us to do that.

Melissa: Mm-hmm.

John: Yeah.

Jim: So thank you. Thanks for being with us.

Melissa: Thank you.

Priscilla: Thank you.

John: And thank you for, uh, joining us for the effort to save life, to speak life into the culture, uh, that Shalom Jim was talking about.

Priscilla: Mm-hmm.

John: You can help us by contributing to the work of Focus on the Family specifically option ultrasound, which is our effort to equip, uh, clinics with the right equipment and the right staffing to help a woman see her baby in the, in the womb, and it makes such a difference.

Jim: It does.

John: It saves a life. It costs $60 for us to reach out and save a baby’s life. We invite you to join us in that. Make a $60 donation today to Focus on the Family. When you make a gift, we’ll send Melissa’s book, Abortion Survivors Break Their Silence. It’s a compelling book. Uh, it would be great for you to have this to, to do as Melissa encouraged, to get equipped and knowledgeable and to be able to share with people, uh, these stories of abortion survivors. Uh, all the details for supporting Focus, finding resources, pro-life resources, and getting a copy of this book are at the website that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And coming up tomorrow, why finances are often a huge battleground in your marriage.

Taylor Kovar: But it’s really that money relationship that a lot of people just forget about. We, we don’t bring up. Some of it shame and guilt, because we spent money we shouldn’t had, um, or we’re hiding money that, you know, we have or don’t have. And so that, that money relationship really drives a big part of the trust that goes on between a husband and a wife.

John: On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.