Day One:
Preview
John Burke: And this is the thing that’s just… It’s hard to imagine, but it’s important to imagine. What people say in God’s presence is that every relationship we have on Earth is just a metaphor of this relationship we were meant to have with the one who created us.
End of Preview
Jim Daly: That makes perfect sense.
John B.: Even… I mean, not only child to parent, friend to friend, best friend who knows you and gets you and does things with you, but also spouse to spouse.
John Fuller: Well, that’s John Burke, and he’s with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, as we take a look back at our Best of 2024 episodes. John will be talking about the hope of Heaven that we have as followers of Christ. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim: John, I don’t know about you, but the thought of Heaven excites me. (laughs)
John F.: It does me, yes. Yeah. Totally.
Jim: I… You know, it’s, it’s how we should be as believers. I mean, I’m, I’m looking forward to it. And I love the promise in the New Testament. It…Right there in the Book of Revelation 21:4, “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more. Neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” That’s something to look forward to. Uh, I, I think it’s even difficult to perceive that because this life is so full of burden and tears and disappointment. But we’re looking forward to when that will not be the case.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, John Burke is here with us, and he’s gonna share some amazing stories, uh, that will highlight an understanding of God that I think will challenge conventional wisdom, Christian wisdom particularly, and maybe stretch our ability to understand the character of God.
John F.: Mm. Yeah. God’s love is so big and deep and wide. John Burke is a popular speaker and author. Uh, he founded Gateway Church in Austin, Texas, and he was lead pastor there until, uh, just this past May. He’s married to Kathy. They have an adult son and daughter and two granddaughters. We’ve already heard about the grandkids.
Jim: (laughs) Let’s see the photos.
John F.: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs) I love it.
John F.: And, uh, today we’re gonna be talking about John’s book, Imagine the God of Heaven: Near Death Experiences, God’s Revelation, and the Love You’ve Always Wanted. And, uh, we’ve got details about John and this book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: John, welcome back.
John B.: Well, great to be back.
Jim: (laughs) So you’ve got two granddaughters. That’s great.
John B.: Oh, yeah.
Jim: Let’s start there.
John B.: I know.
Jim: Do a little bragging, grandpa bragging.
John B.: Man, you know.
Jim: Is it fun?
John B.: It’s the best.
Jim: (laughs)
John B.: In fact, I, uh, I was on the way to the airport, I went 20 minutes outta my way because-
Jim: Oh.
John B.: … I had 30 minutes, and I went to hang out with my little granddaughter.
Jim: Give them a hug.
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: Oh, man.
John B.: It’s the best.
Jim: I think you are smitten.
John B.: I am.
Jim: That’s a good thing. Um, your book, Imagine Heaven, was a bestseller. We covered that, you and I. That just ignited, in many ways, uh, a sense of what Heaven could be like for so many readers that got a hold of that book. It ended up being a bestseller, I think a New York Times bestseller.
John B.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s an achievement. And, uh, especially, you know, in a world that maybe isn’t so open to spiritual things or certainly Christian things the way they once were. How do you explain that interest in people? What’s going on there? And of course, you’re covering near-death experiences in that book.
John B.: What… Well, what I find fascinating is that people who would not necessarily be open to talking about God or Heaven are fascinated with near-death experiences.
Jim: Right.
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: And I think, uh, again, for those that didn’t listen to that, go back in the archive-
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and listen to those broadcasts because, uh, again, there’s a handful that really captured me, and maybe it’s my enthusiasm, but-
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: … it was… It was profound. It was different. Uh, and even in that regard, I mean, you came at this as an agnostic, an engineer.
John B.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I, I love that mind. I mean, Jean is chemistry and so-
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: … you know, you guys are very black and white. You want to see the facts, you want to have everything kind of in a column, and I appreciated that approach. Describe that journey for yourself and then, out of it, I mean, you became a Christian.
John B.: Yeah. I mean, I was. I was a skeptical agnostic, and my dad was dying of cancer. Someone gave him the very first research that coined the term near-death experience. It’s when someone clinically dies. Their heart stops beating, their brain waves cease, and yet they’re resuscitated and sometimes minutes, sometimes hours later.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: Which is-
Jim: Odd.
John B.: … miraculous, honestly.
Jim: Yeah. That’s miraculous in itself.
John B.: You know. And, um, and when they come back, they talk about this reality of a life to come, more real than this life, and the wonders, the beauty, uh, the reunions, this God of light and love. Some knew he was Jesus. Some, he looked like Jesus. And what I’m really focusing on is, is not just their experience of Heaven, but the God of Heaven.
Jim: Well, and those are the attributes you really get into, and that’s fantastic. So it’s not the experience of what they had, and that’s really important and interesting, but you covered many of those stories in Imagine Heaven. Imagine the God of Heaven really talks about God.
John B.: Exactly. And, and I think it is proof of God’s existence. I think God is giving these testimonies all over the globe right now as a witness to our global… Our globally connected world, that He is real, that He is the God of all nations. That’s well said.
Jim: Let’s talk about the idea, and you’ve dealt with this. Uh, sometimes in the Christian community particularly, we can be very careful, rightly so, about, you know, these areas, these edgy areas of experience. And some people might even think, well, this sounds a little new-agey. And you and I talked before, uh, that, in some ways, the Christian community handed these experiences over to other philosophies, new age, etc.
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: But you’ve… You can find them in Scripture. Describe that. Uh, if you were talking to somebody with that attitude, you know, John, this is all good, it’s a great experience, but it’s really new-agey to me.
John B.: Well, I do not advocate that people go form their view of Heaven or their view of Hell or their view of God just from reading near-death experiences.
Jim: Right.
John B.: I don’t. And that’s not… What I’m trying to do, is I’m trying to show… And, and by the way, the reason for that is that every one of these is a… Look at it like a testimony. If I went back to Jesus’ day and went around Jerusalem and interviewed witnesses, right?
Jim: Right.
John B.: Of Jesus raising the dead, doing miracles, I would hear some say, He’s of God, He’s the Messiah, how else do you explain this? And others who saw and experienced the same thing saying, He’s demonic, He’s a sorcerer, He’s dangerous.
Jim: Right.
John B.: So an experience, though real, does not take away free will. And that’s a very, very important thing, that just because these people experience Heaven or experience the God of the Bible, and that’s who they’re describing, and that’s what I’m showing in Imagine the God of Heaven, is that this is none other. And it doesn’t matter what their previous culture or even religious background.
Jim: This is all over the globe.
John B.: All over the globe.
Jim: Hindus, uh, Muslims.
John B.: Buddhists, Muslims.
Jim: Buddhists.
John B.: So, yeah. And, um, I mean, some of the stories just blew me away.
Jim: Let’s get into Santosh. I’ve got one here lined up.
John B.: Well, that’s the one I was about to tell you.
Jim: Oh, good. Let’s hit it.
John B.: Because he’s, he’s such a dear man.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: He’s become a great friend now. So Santosh was a manufacturing engineer. And I like to say that… I like to say that as well, um, that a lot of these people, they’re doctors, they’re lawyers, they’re engineers. They’re-
Jim: They’re gonna be critical of such an experience.
John B.: To make-
Jim: That’s the point.
John B.: … to talk about this hurts them in their careers.
Jim: Hmm.
John B.: Doesn’t make sense.
Jim: Right.
John B.: But they say it was more real than anything they’ve ever experienced.
So Santosh is a, a manufacturing engineer. He grew up in India, his father was a Sanskrit scholar, Hinduism was all he knew. Um, he had gallstones that erupted into his pancreas. He hears code blue, code blue, his heart had crashed, and he’s suddenly up above his body. One of the commonalities, like we talked about, you know?
Jim: Right.
John B.: Um, that also Paul talks about, that when we leave this body, we have a spiritual body. And they say this. And, and that spiritual body can go different places, but we have spiritual body. And he experiences this. Um, he realizes he’s dead. This brilliant light comes to him and he describes it, and this is commonly how they describe, “Brighter than the sun, but mesmerizing to look at,” not hard to look at. And he said, “I instantly knew this was a divine light, this was God, and this was an authority that I had to obey.” There wasn’t question. But he said, “But I, I fell in love with this divine light.”
John F.: Hmm.
John B.: He sensed this God of light is for me. So then he follows, and they travel. And he said they traveled through, and he described it as tunnels. Um, that’s also a commonality many times.
John F.: Right.
John B.: But they come to this place, and this is what just… Santosh said, I’m… This light parks over this giant, enormous, beautiful compound with very high, beautiful walls and inside lush, gorgeous grounds and, and mansions and these buildings of otherworldly material. And he said, “It was enormous, thousands of miles, and it was a square, and there were 12 gates.” He said, “I counted them. And all these gates were gorgeous, but they were closed to me. And then on the outside I noticed angels guarding the gates. And suddenly I knew I’m looking at the Kingdom of Heaven.”
Jim: Mm.
John B.: Now, he is describing the new Jerusalem in Revelation 21. He doesn’t know it.
Jim: Right.
John B.: He had never read the Bible.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But he’s seeing it.
John B.: But he’s seeing it. And, and there’s a lot more to it. I… You know, but he sees… He sees a vision of Hell and he describes it, and it is an abyss of darkness and a lake of fire. This is a Hindu guy, and that’s how he’s describing it.
Jim: Right.
John B.: And I have others from around the world describing these same things, even though they wouldn’t have known the Bible. Then he looks to his right, and there he sees what he says is, “The Almighty on His throne.”
Jim: Ah.
John B.: And he said, “I looked up,” and he said, he… I… He later believes it was Jesus in His glorified state. And he looks up and he sees eyes. And like… He said, it was like lightning coming out of the eyes. Well, Daniel described that too-
Jim: That’s real. Yeah.
John B.: … when he sees God. So did John in Revelation 1, right? And so this is Jesus in His glorified state, and he instantly knows this is the Almighty. He drops to his knees and he said, “Forgive me Lord, forgive me Lord, forgive me Lord.” And he thought, “This is my last day, there’s no hope.” And then he hears the Lord and he said, “I was shocked because I heard tenderness and mercy and compassion and love in His voice.” And He said, “I’m gonna send you back, and when I send you back, I want you to love your family, especially your daughter. She needs you right now.”
Jim: Wow.
John B.: Now think about that.
Jim: Wow.
John B.: Here’s a guy who doesn’t know the Lord, but the Lord knows, even if we don’t know Him, He wants to guide us.
Jim: And John-
John B.: But we have to turn to Him.
Jim: Let me interject this because, when I was reading your first book, I had this discussion, I felt, with the Lord on this, ’cause I was like, wow, Lord, that’s very generous that this Muslim, Hindu, fill in the blank-
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: … person would pass out of this body into some other state and have this experience with you, and then he comes back and begins to follow you. That’s only probably gonna happen to a handful of people of these other faiths. Is that fair? I mean, I actually said that. It’s embarrassing.
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: What I heard back in my heart was, “Oh, do you set the boundaries of my grace?”
John B.: Yeah.
John F.: Mm.
Jim: I was like, Lord, “I don’t understand it at all.”
John B.: Yeah. You mean they’re gonna get paid the same amount I am, and I worked all day?
Jim: But He, He-
John B.: And they only worked one hour? (laughs)
Jim: Yeah. He… The impression I had-
John B.: It’s a parable of Jesus.
Jim: … is He loves everyone He created.
John B.: Look, this… We don’t understand this-
Jim: Everyone. I d- I didn’t get that.
John B.: … as followers of Jesus. There are so many parables Jesus tried to give of this.
Jim: Exactly.
John B.: The unfair workers, right?
Jim: The brothers.
John B.: Yeah. If I wanna be gracious… The, the older brother and the younger brother. And we’re… We’ve gotta remember all the way back, the Bible… And this is what I’m trying to do in Imagine the God of Heaven is show this is a comprehensive book about God, about His love story. You know the Bible is a love story? It starts with a relationship, relationship broken, God making a way to restore relationship, and the whole thing ends in Revelation with a wedding.
Jim: Yeah. (laughs)
John B.: If you miss that, you miss so much of why God does the things He does the way He does.
Jim: It’s the context.
John B.: It’s the context.
John F.: Yeah.
John B.: You miss the context. You’re left asking a lot of, like, wh- that’s not fair, and why do you do that?
Jim: Right.
John B.: Why don’t you… And we deal with all that. But also, we’re, we’re showing in this book that the heart of God, the character, the attributes of God, and how God is ultimately the love you have always wanted.
Jim: Yes.
John B.: And this is… So this is what Santosh… Because this is crazy. So Santosh then asks… He sees to the right of this throne a… What he calls a narrow gate or a narrow door that was open to him. He knew it was open to him. And when the Lord was so tender and compassionate to him, he said, “Lord, when I come back, I want to go through that narrow door, I want to go into your Kingdom.” And he said, “What must I do?” And he’s thinking, “What religion-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … must I join and go to every week?” And here’s what the Lord said, “I want honest relationship. I wanna see how honest you are with me, not, not one day a week. 365 days a year, every day, walk with me. Surrender daily to me. The wages of sin is death, so stop and walk, walk with me.” Well, he didn’t know what that meant.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John B.: And then he’s back. Here’s the crazy part. He starts seeking God with all his heart. He’s like-
Jim: That was motivating.
John F.: Yeah.
John B.: … “Who is this God? This is not like the Hindu gods. Why did He have compassion on me? I knew I deserved that abyss, but He was so tender and compassionate.” Well, two years later, his daughter is invited to sing in a choir for an Easter service at a church. Santosh and his wife go. When he walks in, he feels the love of that divine presence, and the message is on the narrow gate-
Jim: Oh, my.
John B.: … and the broad highway and how Jesus is the gate through which we enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And he goes back, starts reading the Bible, and he says, this is everything I experienced.
Jim: Wow.
John F.: Well, our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly is John Burke. And his book is called Imagine the God of Heaven. And we’ve got that on our website, along with the Best of 2024 audio collection. Uh, you can sign up for free and get access to the entire library, all of that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or give us a call, we’ll tell you more, 800 the letter A, and the word FAMILY.
Jim: John, let’s, uh, go into some of these attributes we’ve got. And there’s more stories. We’re gonna… If you can stick around, we’ll go another day and talk more about these experiences and what people are encountering. But two, uh, attributes that you’ve talked about, um, and that is common in these experiences. Let’s hit those. I think one is the God of light and what’s the other?
John B.: Well, I mean, God is light and God is love.
Jim: That’s a big one.
John B.: And those two, um, interestingly, what people commonly say all around the world… And, and this is one of the evidentiary parts of this, is that it doesn’t matter if it was a Muslim imam in Rwanda, uh, I’ve got, um, a Muslim in Tehran, a woman related to the prophet Mohammed. But they experienced this God of light. Sometimes he looks more like Jesus, but brilliant light coming out of him-
John F.: Mm-Hmm. Uh-huh.
John B.: … and love that is… Our word love doesn’t do justice.
Jim: Right.
John B.: And, uh, and so here’s the thing, like, um, this one guy Dr. Ron Smothermon, he’s a neurologist and a psychiatrist, and he… Actually, he had a, um, a guy staying in his house while he was traveling. He was traveling the world, doing speaking. Comes back, the guy had had a psychotic break and attacks him, and suddenly Ron said, “Time stopped.” And yes, Aman… I mean, Amin, who’s this guy, has a knife aimed at his heart and is, like, frozen there as Dr. Smothermon sees this, what he called… He said, “Imagine being five feet away from the point of a nuclear explosion.”
Jim: Huh.
John B.: He said, “The power of this light was roiling,” you know, like a nuclear explosion. But he said, “What was roiling even more was the love.”
Jim: Huh.
John B.: And he said, instantly, these nine qualities of God were like imprinted upon him.
Jim: Wow.
John B.: One was infinite love. And he, he describes it like this. He said, “Imagine our love is like you’re in the ocean and these gentle waves are lapping against your knees. You know, that’s our love. That’s human love.” He said, “And then a tsunami comes, that’s God’s love.”
John F.: Mm.
John B.: He said, “In, in a good way, it just blows you away.” But what it blows away, he said, “Is death and all fear and all worry,” and leaves you with… He, he said, “One of the qualities was this joy of God” that he said, “It put me into ecstasy-”
Jim: Wow.
John B.: Which, you know, that’s part of what I think when people read, Imagine the God of Heaven. It’s going to blow their categories.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And we need to.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: We all put God in a box. You know, some of us, we don’t see how pure and holy and sovereign and righteous and just, and, you know, enormous God is. On the other hand, some of us don’t realize how relatable and-
Jim: Loving.
John B.: … lov- and… Well, not just loving, fun.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And funny. That… See, now that for some people, they’re like, “Huh, what? That’s not right.”
Jim: I’m gonna enjoy that.
John B.: Well, and I’ve got… I mean, I’ve got some stories that prove it, but also scripture that proves it, that we’ve just overlooked. Because what happens is we, we take some scriptures and some things we’ve heard from pastors or preachers or others, and we make our box.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: We have to. We’re finite. But I believe that Imagine the God of Heaven is going to expand your box both ways.
John F.: Yeah.
John B.: And that’s… So Ron… You know, like, Ron talks about, um, the humor of God, that was one of the characteristics that just caught him off guard, mixed with the purity. He called it purity. I think he was describing the holiness of God.
Jim: Holiness. Yeah.
John B.: He said, “He’s so pure, He’s so innocent.”
Jim: Absolutely.
John B.: And then the last thing he said to me, and I didn’t go through all the qualities, he said, “The power, you know, was like a nuclear explosion.” Like, this is power that you… If you didn’t feel His love, you would just fear and tremble.
Jim: Right.
John B.: He said, “But it, it, it elicits surrender,” he said.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: But then he said, “But you know what, of all these qualities, He was humble.”
Jim: Yeah.
John F.: Mm.
John B.: When… And when you read the overlapping stories like this of people experiencing God, it just… It blows your categories.
Jim: Yeah. Uh, 1 John 4:8 tells us God is love, we’ve talked about that. It’s one of the things that is so inspirational about the Christian faith. I mean, He’s a God of justness, I get that. The commandments, I get that. But overall, He loves us, and so often forget that. Uh, you have a story of Mary from London who experienced God’s love in that unique way. Tell us that story.
John B.: Yeah. Mary was, um… She was actually dying in childbirth or in a complication with pregnancy. Um, and she had a lot of shame. She grew up Catholic, but she, she went away from the church and wasn’t sure about God. She got involved in an affair, got pregnant, you know, it’s just… It was a mess. Um, and then she dies and she’s up above and she’s watching the resuscitation. So she then takes off and she goes to this beautiful place, and in the presence of this God of light. And she said, “Even though I had… I had turned from Catholicism, I knew this was God.” And in His presence, she experiences a, a love that is just unconditional, way beyond what a parent has for a child even, or a granddad for his little granddaughters. And He tells her, “Your son is going to live and you need to go back and you need to raise him.” And she goes back. But as she’s coming back… So this is gonna sound bizarre, but she passes through the top side of the ceiling fan as she’s coming back to her body, and she notices a red sticker on the top side of the ceiling fan. And when she comes to, she can not only describe who’s in the room and what they were doing during her resuscitation, she finally… No one would believe her-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John B.: … which is why a lot of these people just stay silent. That’s the first reaction they get.
Jim: Right.
John B.: She convinced a nurse and an orderly to get a ladder and go look on the top side of the ceiling fan, the side you can’t see, and she described what was written on the red sticker, and sure enough, there it was.
Jim: Right.
John B.: I’ve heard lots of those.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: Lots of those. And man, Jim, I’ll tell you, one of the most profound things that I wrote… Write about in Imagine the God of Heaven is several people I interviewed said, “In God’s presence…” So Erica was one of them. She’s experiencing this love beyond measure. And then God is giving her these lessons and, like, lessons about our uniqueness, how He created each one of us unique. He gave us gifts we’re not to compare to each other because we are to make a, a unique ripple effect through humanity. And our thoughts and our words and our deeds are what make that ripple effect.
Jim: Mm-Hmm.
John B.: And it all works with God’s plan. But then he… Then she said, that feeling shifted, and I feel this enormous sadness. She said, “I didn’t know where it was coming from at first.” She said, “Imagine a sadness like you had just lost all your children. And she said it was like that, but even more.” And then she realized the sadness is coming from God. And she said, “God, why are you so sad?” And He said, “Look.” He was giving her these lessons.
Jim: Right.
John B.: And she sees the planet, she sees earth. And suddenly she realizes, “Oh, my, my children are down there.” She loved her children. She had stopped her nursing career to homeschool her children because she loved them so much, and she was a b- sh- a Christian. And, um, she then feels this overwhelming sadness again. And, and, uh, she sees these flames around the planet, and then the, the planet bursts into flames. And she starts to panic like, “My family’s there.” And then she sees these lights. These what she realized were souls as they came by her going to Heaven.
Jim: Wow.
John B.: And her family. And she realizes they’re safe. And she has this, like, moment of, ah. And she turns to God and says, “God, why, why are you still sad? Look, they’re coming to Heaven. They’re, they’re here with us.” And He says, “Look again.” And she looks again and she sees souls who are still there. They’re not coming. And what she realized… And, and the Lord said to her, “Erica, with the gift of life, I give the gift of free will.” And what He was saying is that it’s real. We’re here in a time of choosing. You know, God said to Moses, “I’ve set before you life and death, blessings and curses, now choose life.” The Lord is your life. Choose life that you may live. And… Right?
Jim: Well, of course.
John B.: And so we are… We are in that time. And-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And the thing is, it, it saddens the heart of God when people don’t choose Him-
Jim: Choose death, yeah.
John B.: When they reject Him. But it’s real.
John F.: Well, John Burke offered such great insights, some sobering thoughts as well, on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And there’s much more to come.
Jim: Well, I really enjoy our time in the studio with John Burke. He’s always a great guest. The stories he shares are captivating and the picture of Heaven that he paints is so exciting. Uh, it gets me going and gives me great hope and encouragement.
John F.: Yeah.
Jim: I share this message with so many people in airports, or I know people that are… Uh, have loved ones passing away, and I’ll talk about this very content. And let me remind you that Focus on the Family is here for you. If you’ve never given your life to Jesus Christ, we’d love to talk with you about this most important decision. And we have so many resources available for you, like our free online article Coming Home, you’ll learn what it means to embrace the love of God and accept His grace. And then what are the next steps you can take to become part of His family. We also have the book we talked about today by John Burke, Imagine the God of Heaven, and you can get it directly through us. Uh, that money goes right back into ministry, providing hope to help families just like yours. After a year of stressful politics, financial challenges, unbelievable social changes that are occurring, we want and we need to give these families hope. The Christmas season is the perfect time to share the hope that Jesus Christ came to give. You can come alongside hurting individuals to give families hope through your support of Focus on the Family. And when you give a gift of any amount today, uh, to the ministry, we’ll send you a copy of Imagine the God of Heaven as our way of saying thank you for helping others.
John F.: And right now, through a special match opportunity, your year-end gift will be doubled dollar for dollar. God’s going to use your gift to bring healing and redemption to twice the families. Donate today and get your copy of the book from John Burke, Imagine the God of Heaven, when you call 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we hear more of the conversation with John Burke, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
John Burke: So here’s what we have to realize. 2 Peter 3:8 says, “To the Lord, a thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years.” Time doesn’t work the same way, and they say this. And so God simultaneously is full of joy and at the same time… But even when I say the same time, that’s time bound. So we can’t do that. Grieves over His lost children. And so what we have to realize is that the cross is where God’s justice and His immense love came together, and made a way for every one of His children to come back home.
John Fuller: That’s John Burke and he’s with us once again on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We’re reflecting today on our Best of 2024 Programs, and I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: Can you kinda feel I’m exploding here? I love having John Burke on the broadcast.
John: He’s energizing.
Jim: And he is. And the, the information he’s talking about is so enlightening and it just makes you think more broadly about the Lord and what He’s up to and His attributes, and I think it’s all good and information that every one of us should be devouring because of the people around us so we can articulate, uh, who God of Heaven is like, what are His attributes, what these experiences are that near-death people have. They go through something that most people would say is unexplainable. But John has done such a great job to capture those stories, to categorize them, kinda putting his engineering mind to work.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And then explaining them through scripture. Not something we need to back away from or shy away from, but something we need to embrace and say, “Hey, we know why they’re having these experiences,” right? (laughs)
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s such a refreshing way to go. And I’m looking forward to today’s program.
John: And if you didn’t catch the last episode where John kinda laid the foundation for what we’re talking about today, uh, go back and watch or listen. Uh, we’re talking today about John Burke’s book, Imagine the God of Heaven: Near Death Experiences, God’s Revelation, and the Love You’ve Always Wanted. And, uh, we said this quickly last time, Jim. Uh, let me just punch it again. John founded Gateway Church in Austin, Texas. He served there many, many years. Uh, he and his wife, Kathy, have two adult children and two grandchildren. And, uh, that book is available from our website, that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: John, welcome back.
John B.: Great to be back.
Jim: (laughs) Okay, so people that missed last time, they’re just turning in right now, uh, that quick recap. Uh, your father, near-death experience. Why in the world did you get interested in this as an agnostic, who-cares-what’s-after-this-life kinda attitude.
John B.: Yeah. Yeah, I was, uh, an engineer before I went into ministry. I was agnostic and skeptical, um, about God, about Jesus, all of it. And-
Jim: I think that gives great validity to what you have discovered, frankly.
John B.: Well, and I think it’s… I think I’m a case in point of what God is doing through these testimonies.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And I think that’s what they are.
Jim: You’re evidence of it.
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs)
John B.: So I read the first study o- that coined the term, “near-death experience,” and I said, “Oh, my gosh, this could be evidence that this stuff is real.”
Jim: Right.
John B.: And that led me, ultimately, to get in, you know, studying the Bible, and I came to faith in Jesus, and left engineering, uh, for ministry. And I’ve always had a curiosity, what are these near-death experiences? When someone clinically dies, but is resuscitated, sometimes minutes, sometimes hours later, and they say experienced Heaven, sometimes Hell, God. And after 35 years of studying these, thousands of them, I wrote Imagine Heaven back in 2015. And really showing how what these people are saying they’re experiencing of Heaven, of Hell, is what the Bible’s been saying all along. In Imagine the God of Heaven, which, uh, I’ve just coming out with, I’m writing similarly, but focusing on something that they would say to me over and over and over again, which is, “Of all the beauty of Heaven, of all the wonderful reunions, of all the mysterious, uh, colors and beauty, all that, nothing…” And they said, “Nothing could compare to being in the presence of God.”
Jim: Wow.
John B.: And so Imagine the God of Heaven is really a comprehensive book about God’s love story. You know, the scriptures, from beginning to end, you know, from Genesis to Revelation, it starts with a relationship, relationship gone south, relationship pursued to the point of sacrifice. And it ends with a wedding.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: It’s a love story. That’s the context. But I’m also showing the character, and the heart, and the attributes of God, the mystery and majesty. You know, like the Trinity. Like, how do you make sense of that?
Jim: Oh, yeah, yeah.
John B.: And, and the wonders of God’s sovereignty, and yet our free will, and all this mystery. And then the joy of God.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And walking with a God of… who, who’s actually fun.
Jim: Which is what it should be.
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, I so love those attributes of God. I look to those: love, joy, peace, goodness, you know-
John B.: Yeah, so what I-
Jim: … patience, wow.
John B.: … what I’m trying to do is show what the scriptures teach, but illustrated through 70 of these people.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And I’ve interviewed almost all of them.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: Personally.
Jim: I know. This is great. Um, let’s… Chapter two in your book, you deal with some of the nay-saying.
John B.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, in fact, one of the c- most common things that professionals will say, medical professionals, “Well, maybe the brain is releasing dopamine, and this is a, a way for the human being to slip into death, uh, in a more euphoric way.”
John B.: Right.
Jim: That’s been a common medical retort.
John B.: Right. Right.
Jim: But you’ve, you’ve got an answer for that. What is it?
John B.: Yeah, my whole chapter two is, uh-
Jim: (laughs)
John B.: … NDEs, skeptics.
Jim: The near-death experience people.
John B.: Yeah, near-death experiences and skeptics. And, um, these are common. I just read a headline that everybody sends me, of course.
Jim: Of course.
John B.: With every headline. CNN, um, “New study finds that near-death experiences are just in the brain.” And, uh, even the article… That’s not what it… The article concludes-
Jim: When you read the article.
John B.: No.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: You have to actually read the article and realize that the brain blips they’re getting studying people whi- while they’re dying, none of the people that reported NDEs had the brain blips.
Jim: Yeah, they’re brain-dead.
John B.: But, oh, well, forget the facts, right? (laughs) You know. But here’s the thing. Uh, there have been about 30 alternate explanations to, you know, negate what near-death experiencers commonly say, which is, “The soul lives on after this life, there is a real Heaven and Hell, and there is a real God.” That’s their simple explanation. All the alternate explanations are trying to wipe that away.
Jim: No matter what their background.
John B.: Oh, yeah.
Jim: I mean, these are religions from around the world.
John B.: It could be… Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jim: Yeah, that’s what I mean.
John B.: What people are experiencing.
Jim: I mean, it’s not predisposed.
John B.: No, no.
Jim: And it’s not pushing a Christian perspective, although that’s what they encounter.
John B.: Right.
Jim: Because it’s true.
John B.: Yes.
Jim: That’s why I get so excited about this, John, because I think it is so revelatory that Christians should embrace this, not run from it, not be shy about it.
John B.: No, I think-
Jim: We should have the explanation.
John B.: I think this is God’s global apologetic in our age of, you know, globally interconnected, we can hear-
Jim: Yeah. Which is exciting.
John B.: Yeah. Um, but, but important. It is important that Christians make sense of it. Because otherwise-
Jim: Right.
John B.: … people are going to interpret it however they’re gonna interpret it.
Jim: Correct, absolutely. Last time we talked about that attribute of God that we so appreciate, which is His love for us. And you described it as something we can’t even imagine. We think we know the word love, but when you’re in the presence of God, love is defined very differently, right? Like an atomic bomb going off.
John B.: Well, and not only that. That’s why I- I try to give so many of their perspectives in their own words because that’s what-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: It expands your categories of… ‘Cause we… God is love. Okay.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: But what does that mean?
Jim: Right.
John B.: And how does that change us now? And that’s what I think, when you listen to the way people experience… Three of them in Imagine the God of Heaven say the same thing that just hit me. And what they said is, “You know, I’m standing there in God’s presence, and I knew this wasn’t the case, but I felt like I was His special kid. Like I was the only He loved.”
Jim: (laughs) Right.
John: Mm.
John B.: Dean, Dean Braxton told me, he said, “I, you know, I felt like I was the only one He loved, but then I thought about my wife at the time, and, and I realized He loved her the same. And then any person I thought of, I realized, He sees them as the only one.”
Jim: Yeah. That, that’s exciting. So again for the viewers, for the listeners, if they didn’t hear that description last time, go back and listen to it. You’ll be encouraged. That’s God’s Love, God’s Compassion. You have a story of a man, I think, in Australia, who demonstrates this. I think his name is Wayne. And, uh… But in that compassion category, God’s compassion for us.
John B.: Well, Wayne… Yeah, Wayne is an aerospace engineer and a lawyer. Um, and you know, when he, he died, uh, had a massive heart attack, and then was revived. He said this God of light he can see, and he’s coming towards this God of light. But then he sees these arms stretched out wide, deep in the light. Two arms stretched out-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … like, like, “Come on.”
Jim: “Give me a hug.”
John B.: “Give me a hug.”
Jim: (laughs)
John B.: And, and they do experience that. But as he was moving toward the Lord… Um, and he had just recently accepted Jesus, like a week before this happened.
Jim: Oh, man.
John B.: Yeah. And he said, “I felt so filled up with this enormous love.” He said, “It kept growing and growing until I thought, I’m going to burst.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John: Mm.
John B.: And then, um, it starts to go down. It starts to subside a little. And he realizes, “He heard my thoughts.” And then he goes, “No, don’t stop, I want more.”
Jim: (laughs)
John B.: And he hears a chuckle from the Lord, and He fills him back up, till he’s, like, gonna burst.
Jim: I love it.
John B.: And, and this is the thing that’s just… It’s hard to imagine, but it’s important to imagine: what people say in God’s presence is that every relationship we have on earth is just a metaphor of this relationship we were meant to have with the One who created us.
Jim: That makes perfect sense.
John B.: Even… I mean, not only child to parent, friend to friend, best friend who knows you and gets you and does things with you, but also spouse to spouse.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: Like, they talk about an ecstasy that there’s no other thing like it.
Jim: On earth.
John B.: On earth like it.
Jim: Yeah, think of that.
John B.: Well, think about that. Because… And this is a really important thing, because so many times on Earth, we’re like, “I, I missed it. My life is… Missed it. I’ve… I’m never going to experience this, or I’m never going to experience that.” Or… It’s not true. It’s not true. Everything on this earth is but a shadow-
Jim: Right.
John B.: … of the real thing to come.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And so, you don’t have to live in regret, you don’t have to live with remorse, wondering, you know, “Did I just miss it?” No, live for the Lord, ’cause you haven’t missed it.
Jim: Right.
John B.: And you won’t.
Jim: And it’ll come.
John B.: It’ll come.
Jim: John, there seems to be, and there, uh, is always this tension between His justice, His righteousness, and His love. And it’s almost like we fall into two camps as human beings. People that are, you know, drawn toward the love of God and feel forgiven, and that’s good. And then others that are drawn toward the righteousness of God. And they live a life of that, um, uh, righteousness, and… But speak to that tension that exists, and then what does God want from us? I mean…
John B.: Well, God experiences the same tension. And, and this is the beauty of hearing people talk about in His presence, as we talked about in our last broadcast. Several of the people I interviewed talked about in Heaven, this one… You know, I talked about, um, Erica. But also Randy K., who was a CEO who had embolisms just shut his body down. And, um, he cries out to Jesus and he’s in Jesus’ presence. Jesus takes him to the throne of God. And there, um, not only has he experienced the love of God, but he also, there comes a point where the Lord shows him people on Earth who are going about their lives completely just-
Jim: Oblivious?
John B.: … oblivious to His-
Jim: (laughs) Yeah.
John B.: … to His nearness. He’s near to all of us.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: He’s near to all of us. Mo-
Jim: Busyness does keep us from understanding that.
John B.: Yeah. And, and he said, “All of a sudden, I felt, I heard a moaning throughout Heaven.” He said, “It was a… like, a moa- like, a grief, but a deep, deep grief.” And he realized, it was the Father’s heart for His lost children.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John B.: A deep moaning. Now, several, I told you, had that. And at the same time, God experiences this joy, laughter, fun, and so here’s what we have to realize. You know, 2 Peter 3:8 says, “To the Lord, a year… A thousand years is like a day, and a day is like a thousand years.”
Jim: Uh-huh.
John B.: Time doesn’t work the same way, and they say this. And so God simultaneously is full of joy, and at the same time… But even when I say the same time, that’s time-bound.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: So we can’t do that.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: Grieves over his lost children.
Jim: Like a father.
John B.: And so what we have to realize is that the cross is where God’s justice and his immense love came together and made a way.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And made a way for every one of his children to come back home.
Jim: Can I ask you this? Sometimes I feel like we’re stressing out about those two attributes of God. And there is a sense of, relax and fall into God.
John B.: Trust.
Jim: I mean, trust Him. He will show you.
John B.: Trust Him.
Jim: I mean, it… We get wrapped up about not living perfectly. We’ve blown it. Now we’re on this just side of God, feeling the shame of not living up to the standard. And then, you know, desiring to fall into the love of God. And then that gets sloppy because you can go anything you want. Then you just go, say, “Dad, forgive me, okay?”
John B.: Exactly. And that’s why, I think… I think reading Imagine the God of Heaven, which is both the scripture with these 70 people and what the experienced in His presence will show you that it’s not an either or.
Jim: The tension is what God wants.
John B.: Well, but I would say it’s the ri- getting the right focus.
Jim: Okay.
John B.: So the right focus, the… If God were primarily interested in our morality, in us doing right and not doing wrong, if He’s truly God, don’ you think He could make us do right-
Jim: (laughs)
John B.: … and prevent us from doing wrong?
Jim: Right.
John B.: So why all this ridiculous freedom to do wrong? If He just was… Cared about us doing the right thing and not the wrong thing?
Jim: ‘Cause He wants your heart.
John B.: ‘Cause He wants you.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: He wants you. He doesn’t want your righteousness. Your righteousness to Him is like filthy rags.
Jim: Right, you can’t do it.
John B.: So if we think we’re really good and we’ve done good and these other people haven’t, you know, come to the Lord and experience His grace.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: Because none of us have.
Jim: John, let’s move to… Since we’re in the deep weeds here on (laughs) God’s attributes, theology, which takes us to something, the Christian community, we call the Trinity.
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: So for some listening, they may, may not even understand what that is. Many Christians may not understand. Describe the Trinity and what person did you encounter that had a near-death experience that related to the Trinity.
John B.: Yeah, and this is one of my-
Jim: (laughs) This is big.
John B.: … this is one of my favorites because, you know, in Section 3 of the book, we go into the majesty and the mystery of God. These things that are category blowers. I mean, they just-
Jim: Yeah, its hard to fathom-
John B.: … they blow your mind.
Jim: … in, in this human life.
John B.: And the- f- God is one God. And, and so the Bible speaks of God as one, and yet, even in the Jewish Old Testament, you start to see this Son of God who is going to come as the Messiah and the Savior. And so we… I go into that, how that was before Jesus ever came. And so the Bible reveals God in a mystery. There’s only one, but revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Jim: Right.
John B.: Now, to us, that is a contradiction. But it’s actually, it’s a paradox. It’s not a contradiction. There are a lot of paradoxes in science. I go into some of them. The, you know, quantum double-slit experiment. I’m not gonna go into, waste time on it.
Jim: Thank you (laughs).
John B.: But, but there are paradoxes that we see even in nature. Our scientists have posited the only way to make sense of this is there’s a fifth dimension beyond our three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. Or more dimensions. Well, I think that’s what, in fact, these people that I interviewed said, “Yeah, this is an experience in dimensions beyond ours.”
Jim: Hmm.
John B.: And so, the interesting thing is, you have people experiencing the triune God. And by the way, Trinity’s not a word in the Bible, right? It’s just this mystery revealed: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But some of them that… They just blow me away. For instance, um, these two young girls who both became nurses later in life, Heidi and Suzanne, who knew nothing about the Bible, experience Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God. Which they even now say, “I can’t really put it into words.”
Jim: Huh.
John B.: So Heidi, um, who has become a dear friend, uh, she grew up in a Jewish home with a father and mother who were, were atheists, agnostics. And her father had a mantra that he said every day to his three girls. “There is no God, your life is worthless, Jesus Christ is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind.” And it was a pretty abusive home, by the way.
Jim: Yeah, it sounds like.
John B.: But she… Oh, well, way more than that.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: But she always believed in God.
Jim: Huh.
John B.: And she always prayed to God and felt every night that He was comforting her in all of her… She would, you know, tell Him, wha- all the injustices happening. She felt comforted and kinda rocked to sleep, every night as a little girl. When she’s 16, her horse… She loved horseback riding. Flying down, you know, bareback. But her horse rears up, steps off a cliff and falls on- across her chest and crushes her. She’s 30 feet above her body, sees her… You know, she knows she’s dead. And she said, “I felt great, the only problem is, I didn’t like that my sisters had to see me die.” And Jesus then takes her hand and she says, “They take off,” she said, “Like Superman and Lois Lane flying.”
John: (laughs)
John B.: But they weren’t just flying. She said it was… “I looked down, and it was like a wave of light pushing us, like at the speed of light.” And she kept looking over, and Jesus is grinning at her and just saying, “Isn’t this the coolest thing?”
Jim: (laughs)
John B.: And she said, “It was the funnest thing I’ve ever done in my life.” And she later reflected, and she said, “I think Jesus did that ’cause He knew how to hook me.”
Jim: Right.
John B.: He knew a 16-year-old would love that. She said, “I- I loved it.” And then He takes her into this light that she said was infinite. Infinite. And they go into this light, and this light is love, and suddenly, she finds herself at the throne of the Father. Sitting with Him. She said, “But He was huge, but He was also Jesus, but they were separate.” And then she says, “I can’t explain how God can be a man and light and love. I can’t, but that’s what I experienced.”
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And then He puts her back in her body, and Jesus leaves, but she feels a presence with her, His presence. And she said, “I later realized that was the Holy Spirit.”
John: Hmm.
John B.: And she loves and follows Jesus today as a messianic Jew.
Jim: (laughs) That is a great story.
John B.: But multiple ones like that.
Jim: Yeah, I mean, that’s what… You’re, you’re filled with these stories, John.
John B.: Oh.
Jim: That’s what I love. I mean, you’re beaming with evidence of God.
John B.: But they’re not my stories. They’re God’s-
Jim: I know, but you, you’re the journalist that’s collected them.
John B.: I know. I am. And that’s why I get so excited, ’cause I want people to see what God is doing.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: He is showing evidence of Himself all over the globe.
Jim: John, this is so good, and there’s so much information. It’s just hard, you- to compress it in a half hour. I mean, it’s impossible.
John B.: I know.
Jim: I’m thinking right here at the end, of the person who says, “Oh, that’s really good for people that had that sense as a little girl to ask God to comfort them, but I’m so bad, I’ve never gotten there. I’m not even sure if what you’re talking about is true, or if you’re all full of hooey.” You know, whatever.
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: I’m talking about a person listening that might feel that distance from God. What, what would you say to them right here at the end? And for the person that is living a, you know, a everyday life for God?
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: How do we encourage them to say, “Get excited?”
John B.: Well, one of the things I think will excite you is, as you read the stories in this book, you’ll realize, these aren’t good Christian people.
Jim: Right.
John B.: And, and I mean…
Jim: But God still loves them (laughs).
John B.: He’s crazy about them.
Jim: Yes.
John B.: Now, they come back, and they want to change their ways. Corina, who’s from Colombia. Um, she had had a very… I mean, a lot of abuse in her background. And when she dies, she realizes, “Oh, my gosh, this is real. There is a God. He’s real.” And she had learned the Our Father, the Fa- the Lord’s Prayer in Catholic s- you know-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … growing up as a Catholic in Colombia. And she starts praying it, and then… But the, “Forgive me, forgive us our sins,” she was, like, sincere. She was like-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … “I realize, Lord.” Long story short, and many times this happens, the Lord allowed her to see where she was headed. But then He takes her into Heaven, and she experiences not only the beauty and the wonders of Heaven, but then He asks her, “Do you want to go back?” And she says, yes. And right before He does, she finds herself face down before the throne of God on this, what she describes as a sea of glass. She had never read the Bible.
John: Hmm. Right.
John B.: She had no idea. Like, a lot of these people describe-
Jim: Right.
John B.: … what they later read in the Bible. And she sees Jesus coming toward her. Uh, she can barely look up at Him. And she can also hear the Father. So they can hear distinctly… They know they’re speaking to one God, but they know the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, who are also separate, are hearing the same. They’re speaking to one-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … in three. And another person said, “You know, we ask, how can that be?” It’s not even a question in Heaven.
Jim: Right.
John B.: It makes-
Jim: It just is.
John B.: … perfect sense.
John: Yeah.
John B.: It’s another dimension of reality that we don’t have.
John: Yeah.
John B.: It makes perfect sense. But the last thing before she went back, that she heard the Father say to her… What she said… I love this. ‘Cause she said, “Can I tell others what I’ve seen?” And He said, “They’re gonna think you’re crazy.” She said, “I don’t care. Everybody’s gotta know this beauty, and the wonders, and how wonderful you are.” She said, “I- I’ll be back, Father. I’m gonna be back with many.” And He says to her, “You’re awesome.”
Jim: (laughs) That’s great.
John B.: And she said, she said, “What?”
Jim: (laughs)
John B.: The Father speaks like this, you’re awesome?
Jim: (laughs)
John B.: And you start to realize, you know-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … God created us. If we think He doesn’t get us and is not relatable, we gotta blow our box apart.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: We got Him boxed in too small.
John: I so appreciate that imagery and the stories that John Burke has brought to us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I trust you’ve been encouraged to pursue the God of the Bible and to study the attributes about Him that we talked about today.
Jim: How is someone not encouraged? I mean, John Burke’s message is so uplifting. Uh, his research and stories remind us of why we have so much hope as Christians. And this is what people should be seeing, you know, when we’re able to share testimonies and talk to people about what gives them hope in this life. Uh, let me remind you, Focus on the Family is here for you. If you’ve never given your life to Jesus Christ, we’d love to talk to you about this most important decision. And we have many, many resources available for you, like our free online article called, Coming Home. It’ll explain God’s love and grace and the steps you can take to become a part of His family.
John: Yeah, and we also have the book we talked about today, of course, uh, by John Burke, Imagine the God of Heaven. Now you can get that directly through us. We would invite you to do so because all the proceeds go right back into ministry, providing hope and help to families like yours.
Jim: And let me give this soft proposal. If we have helped you, could you please consider giving back so that we together can help others, especially as the Christmas season is approaching. Every single day, people reach out to Focus on the Family for that kind of help. Couples heading for divorce, parents who are stressed and don’t know what to do about their teens, and others who need your help today. But we couldn’t do it without you. God will use your support today, uh, to provide biblical resources and programs to save and strengthen families, yes, just like yours. And when you give a gift of any amount, uh, to the ministry of Focus on the Family, we’ll send you a copy of Imagine the God of Heaven as our way of saying thank you. So please, partner with us today, give families hope through this Christmas season. And on behalf of those you’re going to help through Focus on the Family, let me say thank you.
John: Donate today and your support goes twice as far, thanks to a limited-time matching gift opportunity. Your donation today will be doubled, strengthening twice the families around the country and literally around the world. Donate today and get your copy of Imagine the God of Heaven at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Join us again tomorrow as we hear from Bob Lepine. He’ll have tips on managing your emotions during the holidays.
Bob Lepine: And so there is that, that sense of, I’m failing here, and I think a lot of people feel that in a heightened way. Because the Christmas season is supposed to be special and magical, and if that’s what’s not happening at home, I think we feel a let-down.
