Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One

Preview:

Man #1: I think vulnerability in marriage is saying the things to your spouse that you don’t even really want to admit maybe to yourself, but sharing that anyway, sharing fears and stuff about yourself that maybe is uncomfortable.

Woman #1: I think, uh, vulnerability and transparency means just being honest about everything.

Man #2: I think it means you just don’t keep secrets.

Woman #2: Uh, regarding vulnerability, it’s easier for me than him.

John Fuller: Hmm. Well, I wonder if those comments describe your marriage. I wonder if you feel like you can be open and transparent, no secrets with your spouse. Welcome to another Best of 2024 episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Today, we’ll review how husbands and wives can experience greater vulnerability and intimacy and greater love in marriage.

Jim Daly: John, I can already hear people say, “Feelings? Oh, no. Run!”

John: (laughs)

Jim: And, uh, (laughs) honestly, this, uh, is not one of my favorite topics. Uh, this has been an issue in our marriage-

John: Mm.

Jim: … and I think, you know, growing up as an orphan, you kind of compartmentalize that emotional area because it’s painful.

John: It’s safer to just-

Jim: So you put it away.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah, you just put it away. And I think over the years of our marriage, Jean has gently been trying to pull that out, and, you know, we’re further down the road, but probably have a lot more work to do. You know, I think the best line she ever sh- shared with me was, “I got your head, but I need your heart.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, man, that’s, I get it. Um, men in general, I think are more closed off for all those reasons. We can highly compartmentalize those emotions, and that’s why we can go to war, kind of put it away and never talk about it again. It’s kind of the wiring that we have, but not healthy when it comes to intimacy, emotional intimacy in marriage.

John: Yeah. And so we’re gonna have tips for men and women today. Uh, we’re coming back to a great conversation we enjoyed earlier this year with Dave and Ashley Willis. They’re authors and speakers, and host The Naked Marriage Podcast. Now, they’ve written a number of books, and the one we’re gonna hear more about today, uh, is a wife’s edition and a husband’s edition of 7 Days to a Naked Marriage. And you can learn more about that bundle of books in Dave and Ashley’s ministry at our website, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Well, Jim, here’s how you began this Best Of conversation with Dave and Ashley Willis on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim: Let’s start with your love story. It’s always fun to do that. You guys are so vulnerable and so open with, uh, both the highlights of (laughs) that and the low lights of that. Uh, how did you meet and when did you know you were gonna get married? Was it, like, love at first sight?

Dave Willis: Well, it kind of was for me. I mean, I-

Jim: (laughs) Typical male.

Dave: You know, it took her, uh, maybe took her longer, (laughs) but-

Ashley Willis: I don’t know, it was-

Dave: No, when-

Ashley: … pretty quick.

Dave: … when she walked in, it was her very first day of college. And, and I was a junior, I was a couple years ahead. And, and she walked into class one day and, uh, I didn’t even know if she saw me or knew I existed, but she was laughing and talking and, and just lit up the room. And I thought, “I’ve got to get to know her.” And-

Jim: Now, why were you there in this, uh, particular room? Were you a junior that was l- looking at the freshmen? (laughs)

Dave: Right, right. Yeah.

Ashley: I was-

Jim: I mean, what was going on there?

John: Making up for-

Jim: Yeah.

John: … a missed class.

Dave: You’re making me sound like-

Jim: Terrible.

Dave: … really, really terrible.

Ashley: Oh my goodness.

Jim: You had a function-

Dave: But yes, that was-

Jim: … I would assume.

Dave: … that was actually part of the-

Jim: Orientation or something?

Dave: Right, yeah. Let me, let me help. Uh, let me, let me help, uh, the new freshmen find their way around.

Jim: Yeah.

Dave: No, I, it was a class I’d kind of like put off. It was actually an acting class, randomly.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: We were communication majors and in communication at our little liberal arts school, a little Christian school where we went. They, they threw acting in is one of the classes you could take. And I’d kind of put it off ’cause I’m like, “I don’t wanna do that.” But I put it off. I took it my junior year. She took it as a freshman.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And it was just so fun. And of course, I looked for every excuse to like, do act, acting scenes together. Like, “Oh, you know, we would work well together. Let’s-”

Jim: Especially the kissing scenes.

Dave: Right.

Jim: (laughs)

Ashley: I know.

Dave: Right. Yeah.

Ashley: You really did try. We never got paired though. I don’t know why, like, in that class, but you said you noticed me ’cause I was wearing a hat. I’m a big time hat person.

Dave: I noticed a lot more than the hat, but yeah, you were wearing a cute hat.

Ashley: But I was wearing this like, fisherman’s hat that’s really popular in the late nineties, early two thousands. And, um, and we, we chatted it up that whole semester. We were just kind of acquaintances, kind of friends. And then you ended up asking me to your fraternity formal. And we went to each others, like, we went to some dances together and, uh, really got to know each other. And very quickly, I mean, we, we really, I just felt like we both, we started talking marriage pretty quickly, wouldn’t you say, sweetie?

Jim: Wow. That’s good though.

Ashley: Yeah.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: I mean that’s, yeah.

Dave: Well, I knew I had to like, I had to seal this deal before she realized how much better she could do.

Ashley: Oh my goodness, that is not true.

Jim: (laughs)

Dave: Like, she’s outta my league. I’ve gotta make sure that-

Jim: You are a wise man.

Dave: … I land the plane here.

Ashley: (laughs)

Jim: No, it’s so true.

Dave: We just knew. I mean, we-

Ashley: We did.

Dave: … we knew like, we wanted to be together and-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: … and, uh, of course we had a lot to learn. But-

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: … we knew we wanted to figure it out together. We wanted to, we wanted to be husband and wife. And so we, we got engaged pretty quickly and-

Ashley: We did.

Jim: It’s always a little bit of an awkward moment when that, you know, it can be.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, you know, you don’t want to make the assumption ’cause that’s not good.

Ashley: Right.

Jim: And then you wanted to get the point across that, man, I’m really interested. So-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … it’s always that struggle of where’s that line. Jean and I had that. I mean, we knew, both of us I think knew, but it took us, this is kind of funny, it took us like six months.

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: To get to the point of going, “D- do you think tha- do you think?”

Ashley: Mm-hmm. Right.

Dave: No, I-

Ashley: Right.

Jim: And you don’t even have to fill in the blank. She knows-

Ashley: Uh-huh.

Jim: … exactly what I’m talking about.

John: (laughs)

Dave: Me telling her I love her for the first time was-

Ashley: That, that how the I love you went.

Dave: … one of the, the most awkward-

John: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Dave: … moments of my life because I was so nervous. Right? And so she was like, “What are you thinking?” I, I, I wanted to say it, but I couldn’t get it out. I’m like, “I was just, you know, I was, I was thinking like, um, you know, like I, I was just thinking and, and that I, you know, I, I, um-”

Ashley: He literally did this.

Dave: I-

Ashley: It went on-

John: (laughs)

Jim: Sounds like a TV show.

Ashley: It-

Dave: It was.

Ashley: I’m serious.

Dave: She was just smiling, waiting for it.

Jim: Be, be, be, be, dah. (laughs).

Dave: I was like, “Tha- I love, you know, I-

Ashley: You didn’t even say it.

Dave: … I really, I think that I lo-” and before I could even get it out, she said, “I love you too.”

Ashley: I did.

Jim: Aw, that’s sweet.

Ashley: ‘Cause I saw it in his eyes.

Dave: Sh- she rescued me.

Ashley: And I said-

Dave: She rescued me.

Ashley: I said, “Sweetie, I love you too.”

Jim: Well, you know, it’s interesting-

Ashley: And then you were like, “Oh, okay.”

Jim: … there’s so much in that transaction. ‘Cause guys, we do not like to fail.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And we don’t wanna go-

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah.

Jim: … out on a limb unless we have an assurance that we’re gonna win.

Dave: (laughs)

Ashley: Yes. Yes.

Jim: So that’s why I think guys hesitate, like, I, I’m not quite sure I’m getting the right vibe from you.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: So that’s why you gotta finish the sentence for us.

Dave: Thank you, my love. Thank you.

Ashley: Aw.

Jim: Do you think, uh-

Dave: She’s been rescuing me ever since.

Jim: (laughs).

Ashley: That’s not true.

Jim: Let me ask you about this. You have a quote that you like, and it says, “Love is not enough for a marriage to work.” I mean, I understand it.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But come on, isn’t love enough?

Dave: Well, I mean, love in the world’s definition, like is the world’s definition of love is really so superficial. You know, it’s kind of this, uh, something we derive from love songs and Hallmark movies and, and where it’s this picture of love where it, it’s always gonna be easy. If you marry the right person, you’re always gonna have these feelings. You’re never gonna struggle. It’s never gonna take real work. But, but real marriage takes a lot more than that. I mean, it takes a commitment to each other-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: … even on the days when maybe you, you struggle to like each other in that moment.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Um, because you’re so committed to each other and it’s rooted in action. And that’s, that’s the way God, God loves us with a committed love that’s rooted in action. And, and we’ve gotta love each other that way. So I, I think we’ve gotta just break free from the world’s very shallow definition of love-

Ashley: Yeah.

Dave: … to what God has in store and in mind for marriage, which is, it’s selfless, it’s sacrificial at times. It’s gonna take work, but it’s so worth it.

Jim: Hmm.

Ashley: Right.

Jim: I was thinking about the transactional nature of that. You think of the world and now, you know, psychology has shown that basically love defined by the world is that infatuation.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: It lasts about two years.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And it’s kinda like God’s sense of humor to say, “Okay, I’m gonna give you a dose of dopamine in your brain. It’s gonna give you-

Dave: (laughs).

Jim: … You’re gonna have this infatuation.”

Ashley: Right.

Jim: Because if you didn’t, it probably would never, we’d never have children. (laughs).

Ashley: Right. Yeah.

Jim: I mean, I’m thinking, okay, Lord, what are you thinking?

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, but that’s true. I mean, He, He does-

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: … in the way He created us, He gives us this like, you could do nothing wrong.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then that wears off.

Ashley: Yeah.

Jim: And then the hard work of marriage starts.

Dave: Sure. Yeah.

Ashley: Right.

Jim: You know, you’re doing everything wrong. Well, I didn’t think it was me. I thought it was you.

Dave: (laughs).

Jim: And blah, blah, blah. You know-

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: … how that, how that all goes.

Ashley: So true.

Jim: Uh, we mentioned your books, uh, 7 Days to a Naked Marriage. And I guess the question is A, how’d you come up with that title? Everybody’s going, “Did I just hear that correctly?”

Ashley: (laughs)

Jim: And, and then, um, you know, it’s, it’s talking about a, a bouquet of intimacy, if I could say it that way.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: Emotional.

Ashley: I love that. Yes.

Dave: That’s gonna be our next book-

Jim: But first-

Dave: … The Bouquet of Intimacy.

Jim: … for some of those folks that are going, “What, what, what? They used the word naked?”

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: God uses the word naked.

Ashley: Right.

Jim: What?

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: I know.

Jim: Where?

Dave: Hey-

Ashley: Genesis.

Dave: Genesis.

Ashley: (laughs)

Jim: Okay, give it to me.

Ashley: Well, in Genesis 2, it talks about Adam and Eve, the very first married couple being naked and unashamed. And that’s really where having a naked marriage comes from. It’s being naked, yes, physically, that’s a part of it. That’s an awesome part of it.

Dave: Oh, yeah.

Ashley: But that’s not the only part. We gotta be naked physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. And basically it means being vulnerable. Being vulnerable, you know, showing everything, really being known and fully knowing your spouse. I mean, that’s really the goal-

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: … is… And that’s when you get that grit that you’re talking about that we don’t tend to have, you know, in those first two years where we’re going off the dopamine we had from the infatuation. But when, you know, everything really gets, you know, the reality hits that like, oh my gosh, we’re imperfect people and we have to work things out, and I don’t like every little thing you do. Like, there’s things that annoy me and I need to work through that. You know, that’s where we have to get that grit to work through all those things. And, and we get that by being honest and by loving through those hard times.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: And not letting it be this conditional kind of willy-nilly, if I’m not feeling it, I’m not gonna be here for you kind of love.

Jim: Well, I, I think even, you know, we’re kind of giggling and laughing about the title and all that, but there is a, um, a deep problem in the church. I mean, even some people listening, and I get it, everybody. There’s a certain, I don’t know if it’s false prudishness about it, but that the Lord created us-

Ashley: Right. Yes.

Jim: … naked and unashamed. Like we were just there.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We didn’t know any better, right, Adam and Eve. This is who we are. You made us. It, everything’s good.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then sin enters into humanity and all of a sudden we’re covered and ashamed.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: And we still live that way. Even if I can say it, even in the Christian community-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … marriages live in that place of cover up and shame.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: But they don’t have to is the good news.

Jim: Right.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Like, we get back to God’s original design and by his grace, and we can get back to that place of being naked and unashamed where, yeah, we, we still have flaws. Nakedness is that picture of vulnerability where whether it’s physical or emotional, it says like, this is me, like kind of warts and all, scars and all. And I see you and, and your scars too, but I accept you just the way you are. You accept me just the way that I am. And there’s such a, an intimate connection that happens when you can be fully known and fully loved by someone. And God fully knows us and fully loves us, so He went first. I mean, He went first with showing us what that looks like.

Jim: Yeah.

Dave: But in marriage, we can get back to that place. So it’s, it’s heartbreaking for us when we see couples that are hiding from each other-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: … hiding certain things, um, because they’re robbing themselves of that deep, wonderful, intimate connection that God-

Jim: Yeah.

Dave: … designed them to have.

Ashley: Right.

Jim: You, uh, you did premarital counseling. By the way, uh, that is critically important. Again, we lean on a lot of research here at Focus. I think that’s one reason, hopefully, you trust what we have to say-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … the resources that we produce, et cetera. But, uh, the minimum number of hours, if you can receive 10 hours of premarital counseling, your likelihood-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … of staying together is quite high. It’s in the, I think the 90-something percentile range-

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah.

Jim: … for 10 hours of counseling. Now we, we, Jean and I, we saw that. We had probably 12 couples in our premarital counseling.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I think three walked out saying, “We’re, yeah, we’re not ready for this.”

Ashley: Wow.

Jim: That’s good.

Ashley: But that’s a good thing, right.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: That’s a good thing-

Ashley: (laughs) It is.

Jim: … I mean, that they were, it caught their attention.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We are not either meant for each other or, you know, we need to do some work. So how was your premarital counseling and did you guys go in going, “We are so much alike?”

Dave: Yeah. We-

Ashley: Oh, yeah.

Dave: We’ve got this.

Ashley: No, we totally did.

Dave: We’ll go through the motions cause-

Jim: Jean and I too. (laughs)

Dave: We get a discount on our wedding license if we check this off the box, but-

Ashley: Oh my goodness.

Dave: No. But we learned a lot and it challenged us. And it, it was a wake-up call. It helped us to see-

Ashley: It was a wake-up call.

Dave: … we’re not nearly as-

Jim: Wow.

Dave: … as good as we think we are.

Jim: So you were in there and you realized that.

Dave: Oh, yeah.

Jim: I wasn’t that smart. (laughs)

Ashley: No, we, we did, especially in the area of communication. We went in very prideful because both of us have degrees in communication.

Dave: My parents are right. It was a dumb major.

Ashley: Uh, no, it’s not. We’ve used it. But when it comes-

Jim: How are you gonna feed yourself with that major?

Dave: (laughs).

Ashley: well-

Jim: Now I wouldn’t wanna go there.

Ashley: They honestly did ask that. Like really, they did.

John: Poetically, here you are.

Dave: Yeah, we’re-

Ashley: We’re using it, guys.

Dave: Hey, Mom and Dad, we did it.

Ashley: We did it. No, but we really did. We thought even with, like, relationships, like, we were like, “Oh, even in marriage, like, we got this, like we majored in communication. Like we got this.” And they did this exercise with us where basically they had us each say something, and the other could not talk when the other, like, when the spouse-to-be was talking-

Dave: Yeah, we’re telling a story.

Ashley: … telling a story, and it was like in a minute or something. And we’re supposed to listen intently. And then when they’re finished, we’re supposed to say, “What I hearing you say is…” And then we would say what we thought we were hearing them say. And we both did this, and we both really got it wrong. Like, because I think what we were doing, instead of actually listening, we were thinking about how good we are at this and what we were going to say back. And we were assuming we knew what they were going to say, ’cause that’s what we tend to do. Like, well, I, I hear the beginning of this and I’m just assuming I know the rest of the story. And right then and there it was like, it was a wake-up call to us. Like, man, we have a lot of work to do in this communication thing and that it’s not something that you just arrive at, like in life. It’s a journey. Like, you’re always learning about each other. You always need to be a good listener and, um, not just think about your response, like, really listen to your spouse. And so we’ve, we’ve worked on that, you know, for 22 years. We’re, you know, always-

Dave: And we’re still learning.

Ashley: … always learning.

Jim: And how’s that going, Dave? Is it… (laughs).

John: (laughs)

Dave: Um, it, it’s-

Ashley: It’s a lot better than it was at those exercises.

Dave: … better than it was.

Jim: Oh, good.

Dave: I’m a work in progress.

Jim: It’s good you let her answer that question.

Dave: Yes.

Jim: That was excellent.

Dave: My love, how do you feel like it’s going?

Jim: Yeah.

Dave: I concur.

Jim: Now, I, I have that problem where I finish, and I know people are gonna go, “You are kidding me.” But I’ll tend to, if Jean’s kind of taking a little while to put the noun at the end of the, uh, sentence-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I’ll offer three or four.

Dave: (laughs) You’re like the Google auto, so you start typing it in in Google search. Yeah.

Jim: (laughs) She’s so good. She likes, she’ll look at me and say, “Can I finish my sentence?

Dave: (laughs)

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: I’m still doing it. We’ve been married 37 years.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: I think it’s a little lower volume, but it’s like this thing I can’t get rid of.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that’s what you’re talking about.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: That’s not, see, I interpret good listening skills as finishing someone’s sentence.

Ashley: Right. (laughs).

Jim: I’m really listening to you, in fact, so intently I can finish what you’re gonna say.

Ashley: Right, right.

Jim: Uh, they don’t think so.

Ashley: Exactly.

Jim: She doesn’t think so.

Ashley: Exactly. No. And I’ve done that for Dave. Like, there’s been-

Jim: (laughs).

Ashley: … several times where I’m like, I’ll insert something. And he’s like-

Dave: No.

Ashley: … “No, that is not-”

Dave: Yeah. Like, “I’m gonna go…” Get a sandwich, go for a run, go to Lowe’s. Like, no, no. I’m, I’m gonna go to take a shower.

Jim: (laughs) It’s like this multiple choice thing.

Dave: Just let me finish. Right, yeah.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: Just let me say it.

Ashley: Exactly.

John: Yeah.

Ashley: Exactly.

John: That’s the benefit of premarital counseling is to learn, oh, we have a tendency maybe to do that.

Dave: Yes. Exactly.

Ashley: Yes.

John: And I’m glad you’re listening to Focus on the Family today with Jim Daly, because we’re talking about marriage and some of the foibles, some of the challenges we all experience. Dave and Ashley Willis are our guests. And, uh, they have written and spoken about marriage a lot, and they’re sharing a lot of their own personal experiences with us today. Uh, they’ve captured a lot of the content that we’re talking about in, uh, a couple of books. There’s a wife’s edition and a husband’s edition of 7 Days to a Naked Marriage. Uh, this is a great day-by-day guide to developing intimacy. And, uh, we’ve got this bundle of books for you. Uh, just give us a call, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Dave, one obstacle to the vulnerability of marriage is something you call emotional sunburn. Now, being a fair-skinned Irish guy, I’m connecting with you.

Dave: (laughs).

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: I have had plenty of sunburns in my life, and now I go to the dermatologist quite regularly. (laughs).

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But what does that mean, emotional sunburn?

Dave: Yeah. So like, when our family would go to the beach, well, we’d noticed that none of us were applying sunscreen effectively. And we, we were all pretty fair-skinned. And so by the time we get back home at the end of the night, everybody was, was sore and needing aloe and just in a bad mood.

Jim: Why did we go there?

Dave: Why did we do that?

Jim: That was horrible.

Dave: And, and I would-

Ashley: (laughs).

Dave: … notice it if someone would come and just tap my back, like, “Hey Dave, how was your day?” And they, they’d pat me on the back, I’d wanna punch ’em in the face, right?

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Because they touched a place where I was wounded. It had nothing to do with anything they did wrong.

Jim: Hmm.

Dave: There was just under my shirt, there was this wound that they could not see.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And in marriage, I think we all kind of carry to some level these invisible emotional sunburns that over time, you know, our, our hearts have been wounded by different things. Maybe we’ve even wounded one another. These wounds can be invisible. And yet when our spouse in close proximity to us just says something or just kind of touches us a certain way, it might evoke this irrational emotional response that surprises them and makes them think that they’ve done something terribly wrong, when really it’s just the defense mechanism that we build up to protect our own wound. And so, in marriage, you’ve gotta become experts in navigating each other’s woundedness and not lashing out in your own woundedness.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: ‘Cause it’s something that all of us are prone to do. When we’re hurt, we tend to lash out and cause further damage. But in marriage, we have to take a step back, even in our pain sometimes, and lean in and really work through the process together.

Jim: Okay. I’ll stick with the analogy of the sunburn. So what’s the aloe? What do you put on-

Ashley: Hmm.

Jim: … that, that soothes that pain?

John: Mm-hmm.

Dave: That’s, that’s a great question.

Ashley: Yes. It is.

Dave: I, I think that the aloe is a combination of listening, of tenderness, of compassion, of encouraging words, of just serving one another. And depending on your spouse’s temperament, their personality, the level of the woundedness, their own individual kind of love language, all those things, that aloe might look a little bit different, but for all of us, it’s gonna require a lot of tenderness and time.

Jim: Well, and I think one of the challenges you have there is that’s typically an external treatment, meaning your spouse provides it. If you have those wounds, it’s hard for you to provide it for yourself.

Ashley: Right.

Jim: But when your spouse is able to soothe you-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that’s a good thing.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Right.

Dave: And really, we, we also have to lean, lean into the Lord on our own.

Jim: Of course.

Dave: So like our, our spouse has to be part of that process. But your woundedness is something you need to take first to Jesus, uh, and find that healing in Him, and then let your spouse be part of that process. Don’t shut them out from it. Don’t push them away.

Ashley: Yeah.

Jim: You, you use the books. You, you use actually the marital vows. We haven’t really said that.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, one is to love and cherish. And Dave, I understand you like to illustrate this vow with living room furniture.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: (laughs) I’m not sure… That sounds really romantic, by the way.

Dave: It is, yeah.

Ashley: (laughs)

Dave: It, it’s, well-

Jim: Connect the dots for me.

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: Yeah. Well, I’m a visual learner, right. So if I can like, see something, I, I, I just, I kind of understand the concept more. And so in, in one of the, a talk we did at a marriage conference, we had some furniture on stage. There was a loveseat in the middle and two individual chairs next to the loveseat.

Jim: Oh, that’s, that’s good.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Yeah. You’re, we’re off-

Jim: I know where this is going.

Dave: … off to a good start, right?

Ashley: Yes. (laughs)

Dave: Yeah. So, so the love seat, we would sit in and we would say, “Okay, now this represents, you know, it’s an actual loveseat, but it represents, you know, a love where love should live in your marriage, where you’re united, you’re here together. But another posture marriage can have is when you’re in these two individual seats, you know, you’re not the same place. You know, it’s his and hers. And from this distance, it’s so easy to get disconnected, to blame each other, to not lean in, to not connect intimately.” And so many couples are in this dynamic. And so the, the whole goal is like, let’s get in that loveseat together, which means we’re united physically, emotionally, spiritually, and-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: … we’re, we’re together. You know, our, our proximity is near one another, both physically and emotionally. And, and if you’re not there, if you feel that distance, then work actively to figure out how, where the distance started.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And then how do we get back together? How do we write this course and, and get back in the same place again?

Ashley: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah. Hey, um, Ashley, you’ve been really vulnerable in the writing of these, and even when we’ve been here at the studio talking, you guys are refreshingly open about your shortcomings, which is great. That’s what we attach to, because when we’re honest, we got similar ones, (laughs) if not the exact same ones.

Ashley: Right. Right.

Jim: And in that way, uh, you don’t always feel lovingly or inviting toward Dave, especially when you’ve been dealing with children all day long. That’s completely understandable.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: What advice do you have for wives, mothers who struggle to cherish their husbands-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … because they’re not that cherishable?

Ashley: (laughs) Oh my goodness.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: So I guess the quid pro quo there is-

Ashley: Yeah.

Jim: … A, do we have to earn that cherished spot? And then B-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … how does a woman show that kind of cherishedness toward her husband, if that’s a word?

Ashley: Yes. No, I love that question because I do, especially when we are in the thick of raising children, we can get so kind of focused on the kids that we get frustrated when our husband actually needs something. Like when our husband comes to us and is like, “Hey, you wanna have some intimate time together?” Or, “Hey, do you wanna go on a date?” It feels like another thing on the list. And so what I would say-

Jim: So when you say, “Are you serious?” That’s really not a good response?

Ashley: Right. Probably not. Probably not. But I mean, I totally get the sentiment of it.

Jim: Yes.

Ashley: And I’ve probably said it before myself.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: Because I do, I think we feel like there’s all these plates we’re keeping spinning, these, all these things we’re trying to, you know, li- take off the list or whatever. But I think that we, we can’t see our husband in our relationship with our husband that way. I mean, this is the one that we have pledged to live our whole life with-

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: … that is our best friend. And so we have to, to not see him as another thing on our list and really make intentional time for him to really spend that time and, and talk to him. And I mean, that may look like putting the kids to bed earlier than you normally would so that you can have an actual conversation with your husband.

Jim: Four o’clock bedtime.

Ashley: Yeah, right.

Jim: Kids, let’s go.

Ashley: Hey, I know.

John: (laughs) Yes.

Ashley: And the kids, I will just say, the kids aren’t gonna like it. The kids aren’t gonna like-

Jim: (laughs)

Ashley: … an hour earlier bedtime, but that’s okay. I mean, you’re the parents. You gotta set those rules and just have that time. And even just, you know, making sure that there’s room in your day for your spouse. And I would encourage husbands too, especially in the thick of raising kids, like, don’t let everything fall on your wife. You guys are partners. You’re in this together. Make sure that you’re communicating well and assume the best of each other. Assume the best, that he didn’t know that you expected him to do that, or she did not know that you had put that on the calendar. Like, just go and communicate and say, “Listen, I would like more time with you.” And if you go from the heart, I mean, that’s how you cherish each other, is really getting to the heart of things, and that you wanna have that time together.

Jim: Ashley, one thing I wanna recognize for wives and, and mothers right now is that, and I, as you were talking, it hit me, everybody’s pulling on you.

John: Mm.

Ashley: Yes. Oh, yes.

Jim: And I can get that, because, uh, typically in that busy season, you’re not, as the wife, initiating-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … intimacy.

Ashley: Right.

Jim: Um, uh, and you feel like, I’ve got the kids pulling on me and I got my husband pulling on me.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s pour out, pour out, give, give, give, give, give. Who’s filling my tank?

Ashley: Right.

Jim: Just describe that. And then what can we do as husbands to help fill that tank up in a way that feels, um, true-

Ashley: Right.

Jim: … and not motivated by some other underlying desire?

Ashley: Exactly. No. And that, you just hit the nail on the head. I think that that is when, when wives feel like, oh, he’s only doing this because he knows we’re gonna have special time together later, it can feel inauthentic. And so I would say yes, I agree with you. I mean, I, I remember those times. My kids are a little older now, but I remember feeling like, man, literally like, literally and figuratively, everything and everyone pulling at me. And it just felt like, gosh, can I just have a moment to myself? You know?

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And I would say as a husband, what you can do is help, help give your wife that moment to herself.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Like, I remember just a little example, um, when we had, we had several small children in our house and, uh, we were at a new place and I was trying to get kind of, you know, into the community. And I had this girl come up to me at church and said, “Hey Ashley, I heard you used to be a dancer. Well, we have a dance team at our church, and it’s kind of a small group too. We pray together, we do life together. Would you like to come?” And I’m like, “Well, yes, I would love to come. When do you meet?” And she was like, “Tuesdays at seven,” or whatever. And immediately I thought, “I have too much on me. I can’t do that.” And I later on in the day was talking to Dave about it and was like, he was like, “How was your day?” You know? And I was like, “Oh, well, Sarah came up to me and told me that the church has a dance team. Isn’t that just so cool? They celebrate the arts. Man, I would just love to be part of that. It’s just too bad I can’t.” And he stopped me right there and said, “No, no, no. When is it?” And I was like, “Tuesdays at seven.” And he goes, “I will rearrange my schedule.”

Jim: Ah.

Ashley: “We’re giving you Tuesdays at seven.” And it was like every week having small children, and at the time I was staying at home, so it was like I was at home all day with kids, which is awesome. And I loved it. But to be able to go and be with people who love the Lord, who love to dance, who wanna pray with me and do life with me, it literally just was, it was like wind, fresh wind to me.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: And so I would just encourage husbands, it may not be a dance team for your wife, but like-

Jim: (laughs)

Ashley: … find a way to give her that time. And then I’m telling you, when she sees you being intentional about giving her that time, it naturally, she feels cherished and she’s gonna lean in more to you ’cause she knows you’re trying to be a true partner.

John: What a wonderful conversation today with our guests, Dave and Ashley Willis. This has been a Best Of edition of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Uh, we had such a strong response to the first time we aired this, we’re bringing it back. And plan now to join us for part two of the discussion next time. Now, meanwhile, contact us about getting the bundle of books that we’ve talked about, the husband’s edition and the wife’s edition of 7 Days to a Naked Marriage. Uh, make a gift of any amount to the ministry of Focus and we’ll send those to you. Uh, our number is 800-232-6459. 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or of course, you can donate and, uh, get that bundle of books at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And at the website you can learn more about our entire Best of 2024 collection. It’s got some great conversations, including one with Lee Strobel about the evidence that proves the existence of God and, uh, a conversation with Curtis Chang about handling anxiety in godly ways. And then the impact that your birth order has on your marriage that features Dr. Kevin Leman. These and so many more programs, 18 in all, are free to you. And we’ve got details for you, as I said, at the website.

Jim: And if I could remind you to think about Focus at the end of the year here. About 50% of our budget is raised right now.

John: Hmm.

Jim: So if you can, uh, support the ministry, we would deeply appreciate it. In fact, when you support the ministry, you’re the one doing it. Uh, you’re supplying the engine with-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that fuel to make it happen. And, uh, your prayers and financial support mean a great deal to those that we’re gonna touch together. Think about it, partnering with us to strengthen marriage, empower parents, save a baby from abortion. Uh, there is so much good that’s being done. I hope you’ll join the team and support us today. Plus, when you give today, your gift will be doubled thanks to some special friends who want to equip us for more ministry in 2025. So let me encourage you to give today a monthly pledge or a one-time gift, and let’s see that doubled and do exciting things for the Lord in the coming year.

John: Mm. Yeah. Donate and double your gift when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or you can do so at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Well, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back for more marriage encouragement from Dave and Ashley Willis as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.