Jonathan McKee: And the key thing is to find ways to get into our kid’s world, spend time with them. Maybe that means sitting downplaying video games with them, you know, doing what they like to do. And hang out with them. And look for those opportunities to just enter their world, love on them and engage in meaningful conversation about the stuff that matters. The more we invest in them, then they’re going to navigate some of these conversations with you. And that’s where values are passed on.
End of Excerpt
John Fuller: Jonathan McKee is with us on Focus on the Family. And your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: Hey, John. Here’s a declaration. Being a teenager is never easy. Although I’d kind of like now to go back to being a teenager. If I had this capacity today…
John: What year would you pick? What age?
Jim: Oh, definitely not the freshman year (laughter).
John: Yeah. I would agree.
Jim: Low man on the totem pole. But, I mean, it’s just tough when you’re trying to figure out who you are, what you’re about. Is your faith your own, or is it your parents’? All those things and, you know, all the other stuff the culture’s thrown at you – social media, pornography. I mean, there’s so many things now that are readily available, uh, to teenagers and particularly teen boys. And we’re going to talk about that today. Let me remind you that Focus is here to help you in your parenting journey. There’s nothing that will embarrass you if you call us. And we want you to call us and ask for help if you’re in that place where you really need some input about parenting teens today.
John: Yeah. Our – our phone number is 800-A-FAMILY. And online, you can find the help you need at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And, uh, Jonathan McKee is an expert on this topic. He was once a teen boy.
John: And he has done 20 years of youth outreach and youth ministry. And he’s written a number of books. He’s been here before a number of times as well. His most recent topic is The Guy’s Guide to Four Battles Every Young Man Must Face.
Jim: Jonathan, welcome back to Focus.
Jonathan: Thanks for having me – always a delightful conversation.
Jim: OK. You’ve heard that intro. What do you think are the biggest differences between the way maybe we grew up – you’re a little younger than me. But I – you probably still grew up in an era where things were a little simpler compared to what teen boys are growing up with today.
Jonathan: Absolutely. It could be summarized by just saying, um, more accessibility and less accountability. That’s the big difference.
Jim: Oh, that’s good.
Jonathan: Because, I mean, when we were all growing up, there was temptations all around us. I mean, uh, there was definitely raunchy music. There was definitely pornography available. But, like, pornography, I mean, it was a friend showing us his dad’s magazine or it was at a liquor store…
Jonathan: …down an aisle somewhere. And maybe that was a temptation for some of us. But it wasn’t coming through every Wi-Fi signal in the house.
Jonathan: Today, there is more accessibility – same with music, same with movies. I mean, sure, we could sneak into a movie theater or go rent that movie, right? We had to sneak to the video store, convince the guy to actually give you the R-rated movie. Of course, none of us ever did that. But if by chance that was us, that was what it was like back then. And now it’s coming again through all these different signals, through these devices that are right there in our bedroom. And sadly, most parents allow these devices into the bedrooms. So, there is the less accountability.
Jim: And that’s the overarching truth right there. And that’s what makes it so difficult for parents today, uh, especially moms, I think, that worry terribly and understandably about what their boys are seeing and going through and experiencing. Let’s start on a little higher side. And what I mean by that is kind of the overview. You – in your book, Guy’s Guide to Four Battles, uh, you talk about a man sometimes, but certainly teen boys too, our lack of ability to ask for directions or instructions. That’s me.
John: It’s universal.
Jim: Do you ever read the instructions, John? You’re firstborn.
John: I try first…
John: …to do it myself. And then if I need to, I look at the directions.
Jim: I don’t think I’ve ever read a set of instructions putting something together, which does mean I leave a few parts out. But…
Jim: Why is that…
Jim: …The case?
Jonathan: It is. It’s – it’s – it’s our stigma. It’s part of being a man, right? You got to just – you got to man through it. And so, I talk about that because I think that tends to be a tendency. It’s a pride thing with us, with – with guys. And – and, you know, sadly, if we go through this journey of life without looking at the manual, you know, we need to be in the Word of God. And so that’s one of the things that I talk with young men about. And I-I use a story of using a manual to talk about that and bring that to light because it is kind of a humility thing. It’s…
Jim: So, it’s pride that keeps us from doing it?
Jonathan: Absolutely. It’s one of those things where we need to realize – because so often as we’re facing these things our tendency is to keep it secret, to not tell anybody, to try to do it on our own as opposed to doing what the Word of God says, which is – which is reach out to others and, in a world full of explicit lies, to look in the explicit truth of the word of God. And that’s a place we need to go. So, this book, you know, is one of those excuses to get guys digging into the word.
Jim: Uh, video games – you mention that and, uh, how you use it to teach your boys about learning from others’ mistakes. You’ve got to tell me how to do this one.
Jonathan: Well, yeah. No, no.
Jonathan: I mean, obviously – I mean, this is one of the huge subject as we’re talking about the four battles, these four distractions in young people’s life. Probably the biggest complaint I hear from parents at my parent workshops is, “How do I get my son to stop playing Fortnite, you know, or Apex Legends or whatever the game is at the time, you know, all night long? I cannot pry them from that.” And you guys have sons. You probably can relate to that.
Jim: This will be the golden answer. Everybody’s waiting for it.
Jim: “Just one more minute, Dad.”
Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly – “One more day, Dad.” And it’s just – it’s one of those things. And so – yeah. I used a video game example of talking about something that all young men understand. And it’s the fact that very often we’ll go through – like, you know, if you’re playing a video game, and you go through a room, and all of a sudden you go through a door, and you get demolished by a bunch of bad guys, right? And it happens. Well, immediately, the cool thing is, if – on a video game, if you die, it just says, “You’re dead.” And it puts you back to that next – that last starting point, you know…
Jonathan: …where you were. And you just get to have this nice little do-over, you know? If only life were that simple, right? And the thing is I’ve never seen a young man go, “Hey, let me go do that same stupid mistake again.” They learn from that mistake. They’re – they’re better equipped to walk through that door or avoid that door altogether. And it’s one of those things where we can learn. We can see – and here’s the other crazy thing. Guys always play together, right? They’ll -they’ll play. And they’ll play see a buddy go through a door like that. And they think to themselves immediately, well, I’m not gonna go through that door. Well, this is great life application for us. This is the exact same stuff we can do in life – is we don’t have to go out and say, “No. I better learn this for myself. Let me drink myself silly.” I mean, we can see this stuff happen and learn from this.
Jim: You know, you’re not saying this. But what I like about what you’re saying – and I would – I would ask moms to think about this because I think moms struggle a bit more with this. And I’m sure a few moms have gone out after dad. But to use the kid’s environment to teach a lesson, not to say stop but to say, you know, “Son, what is this teaching about life?”
Jonathan: That’s all.
Jim: I mean, you can make it a little more playful. But I enjoy that kind of parenting. I – you know, and I – but I think sometimes, uh, men may get that a little quicker to engage a son with what he’s doing rather than say, “Stop doing it,” and, “Here, I’ll tell you why,” but to engage them in their activity and begin give them a short lesson about what that’s teaching. I’d like that. But I want to make sure we all catch it.
Jonathan: No, Jim. That’s one of those things where we have the opportunity to – as we’re entering their world and walking through life with them, to be able to have a meaningful conversation about something that matters. And our tendency sometimes as parents is to quickly overreact. If we see our kids playing too many video games, it’s – we – we go to the boundaries. We quickly – “Hey. You’ve had too many hours of video games” as opposed to – instead of overreacting, interacting, maybe playing that video game with our kid because, when we enter their world and actually, you know, go two-player with our kids, I found that my son…
Jim: (Laughter) I found that very embarrassing.
Jonathan: Yeah. It can be because, you know, they may kill us all the time.
John: Yeah. They whack us up.
Jonathan: But the fact is those are some of the best times. And we’ve talked about that before on the show. And to be able to have those moments, to have those conversations, that’s powerful stuff. That’s where values are passed on.
John: Do you think – do you think, Jim, that, uh, for a lot of parents, it’s that my kid’s not gonna get it right away, so I have to point out the obvious to them? There’s a certain patience you have to have as you wait for any teenager to kind of grab on to the life lesson. Isn’t it?
Jim: It may be more temperament than it is gender. But you know – you know, if you have a black-and-white person, a mom or a dad, I think they tend to go to that black-and-white clarity to say, “Here’s the line. Don’t cross that line,” as opposed to using the moment to teach and to show them through what they’re experiencing, a principle, a – proverbs or what God might say to them in that environment. And you could do that in such a light-handed way. And I think it has profound, uh, impact on our kids more than, “Here’s the line. Never cross it,” I think. That’s my personal, uh, insight. But, uh, Jonathan, I love the way you have that introspection about yourself. And in the book, you put it out there. You don’t hide your own shortcomings. But you mentioned a hilarious story, which probably at the time wasn’t too funny. Uh, but it was, uh – a distraction. It’d become a distraction in your life. What was going on?
Jonathan: Yeah. You know, it’s one of those stories that I think young people identify with just because it’s one of those silly moments. And I love – I love mountain bike riding, uh, but I’m not what I would call a mountain bike rider by any means.
Jim: That could be dangerous (laughter).
Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, I love to be on a mountain bike with my friends. But I-I have friends, like my friend Mark, who – man, this guy, he will take any terrain, anything. So – so I actually went mountain biking with my friend Mark, and…
Jonathan: …and we went up towards Lake Tahoe. And Lake Tahoe’s gorgeous. It’s right there in the Sierras. And I knew this particular trail we’re gonna take was kind of a precarious trail. And he warned me about it. And so right before we go out, he goes, “OK. Now, Jonathan, listen to me if you don’t want to die today.” And I go, “OK, you’ve got my attention. I don’t want to die.” He goes, “Now here’s what you do.” He goes, “This trail goes back and forth. It’s really crazy.” He goes, “But there’s a couple great lookout spots, and we’ll – we’ll eventually stop.” He goes, “But don’t take your eyes off the trail.” As a matter of fact, he said, and he pointed to his back-wheel right at the center, at the hub. He goes, “Keep your eyes right on my hub.” He goes, “When it goes left, you go left. When it goes right, you go right.” He goes, “Keep your eyes focused right on that one thing, and you won’t die.” And I said, “OK, keep my eyes on the hub, don’t die.” And man, he was right because when he took off on his trail, man, he was going all over the place. And when he went fast, I tried to go fast. When he slowed down, I definitely slowed down. Right, I went right. Left, I went – and it was a crazy trail. And, man, I was so glad to have him guiding me. And I kept my eyes right on the hub. But we finally came around this clearing. And off in my peripheral vision, I could see this amazing blue something to my right. And I realize it’s Lake Tahoe. And if you had never seen Lake Tahoe, it is the most…
Jim: It’s emerald, yeah.
Jonathan: …gorgeous – it is the most gorgeous deep blue you’ve ever seen. And I was just thinking if – I’m just gonna take a little peek ’cause it’s this beautiful – and he’s not stopping. And this is the perfect place to stop. So, I just – I couldn’t help – and I remembered, “Look at the hub or die. Look at the hub or die.” And I was like, I just couldn’t – I was like, “But it’s so beautiful.” And I just looked over to the right over there. And I was like, “Oh, wow, how beautiful.” And the trail turned left. I didn’t see it. I went right off the edge. And luckily, there was this little Christmas tree just kind of right – and ’cause it was one of those edges. I don’t think I would’ve died, but, man, I would have broke some serious bones. I reached out, and I just grabbed the Christmas tree like Elf, man. I just grabbed that thing, and the Christmas tree just dipped and went (imitating drooping noise).
Jonathan: And I was like, “Hold on, little tree.”
Jonathan: You know, and I sat there, and I was dangling onto this tree. And it was so funny ’cause, I mean, there’s nothing wrong with looking at a lake. But the fact is sometimes in life, there’s distractions that keep our eyes off the focus of what we should be focused on. And it was one of those moments where I realized, hey, you know what? There’s – there’s nothing wrong with video games, you know? There’s things in our life that sometimes are distractions and keep us from focusing on the things that matter. And that’s one of those illustrations I give in the book where we talk about, hey, how do we stay focused on the things that matter?
John: Jonathan McKee is our guest today on Focus on the Family, and, uh, he’s got this great book, Guy’s Guide to Four Battles Every Young Man Must Face. And we’ve got it available here at the ministry and we’d invite your call, 800-232-6459. 800, the letter A, and the word family. Or you’ll find the book and other help at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: And Jonathan, we’ve been talking about these four battles that young men will face. We haven’t really named ’em. So, what are they?
Jonathan: Absolutely. Uh, sexual temptation, screens, controlled substances, and struggles with self-esteem – those are the four biggies. Those are the ones that guaranteed if a mom comes up to me and asks a question about her son and says, “Hey, I – I got to ask you – my son,” I know it’s gonna be one of those four things.
Jim: Yeah. I would think, um, you know, again, being a teenage – I would think that self-image is kind of the foundation there because the other things behaviorally come from poor self-image and impact on your self-image or wanting to be something special in the crowd, what have you. Self-Image, what are the obstacles there? What are the battles? How do we encourage a teen boy in his self-image?
Jonathan: No, it’s a great question, especially because these four battles seem to intertwine so much. I mean, ’cause self-image is now so tied up in screens. And so, in a world where screens are becoming such a distraction. I mean, and this is – this kind of new territory for us as parents because when you look at the greater history of mankind, I mean, we’ve really only, you know, as a country, only had smartphones in our pockets for, like, the last, like, seven years. So, this is kind of new stuff where young people are carrying social media in their pocket. I mean, because it really wasn’t until 2012 that Snapchat and Insta and all this stuff emerge. And since then, every expert out there is pointing to this social media and these devices in our pockets as the source to all the problems with anxiety, depression. You know, their self-esteem is so caught up in this little – I call the smartphone “a little barometer of self-esteem.” And if you think about this for a guy today, it’s like, “Well, how many friends do you have?” A lot of them would, “Well, let me check real quick.” They go right to their device.
Jim: Right (laughter).
Jonathan: I’ll tell you many friends I have.
Jonathan: You know, you know, how am I trending right now? What crazy thing have I done to get likes, you know? And so, this is a sad situation for – and honestly, everybody’s trying to kind of figure it out right now. Our country’s in – in a spot where we saw both Apple, Android last year just recently come up with, all of a sudden, screen time limits and stuff for the first time because there was this outcry of, “Hey, something’s wrong here.” Young people are getting so caught up in devices. Scratch that. Not young people, people…
Jonathan: …are getting so tied into these devices. And so that’s one of the big struggles right now is helping young people realize that their identity is so much more than just the likes you receive on Insta.
Jim: Yeah, you know, the application again, nothing new under the sun. Jesus spoke a lot about a person’s image and self-image and those kinds of things. So how do you take the way Jesus spoke about self-image and parlay that into a real-world experience with your teen boy today?
Jonathan: Well, in a world where everybody wants to be liked, I think a lot of us, you know, we’re going for attention in wrong ways. And Jesus was such an amazing example of someone who just cared for others. And I love just when you read Jesus stories with your kids, and that’s one of the things – in the book, I tell a few stories. I tell some basic stories. We’re talking like Sunday school stories like Zacchaeus, the woman at the well. The way Jesus treated people – there was some people that I think a lot of young people can identify with today. Zacchaeus kind of maybe made some bad choices, maybe not liked by the crowd, but yet, Jesus just called out and said, “Hey, Zach. Let’s do dinner tonight. I want to hang out with you.” And Jesus cared about Zach because of just the fact of who he was, you know? And it didn’t matter about his past, but his future was incredibly important to Jesus. And this is one of those things where young people, again, we can get so caught up in our identity and how many actual likes we have on Instagram or whatever. And our identity as a believer is in Christ. And it’s so neat. The more we get to know Jesus, and the more we get to know how much he values us and wants to get to know us, that is such a comfort…
Jonathan; …to young people. And then there’s many other ways we get into in the book, such as serving and this as that because it’s amazing when you start serving and seeing sometimes where other people are need and the difference that you can make in someone else’s life, man, there is no greater boost to self-esteem when God is using you to impact others.
Jim: Well, and you mention these four things are intertwined. And just people jumping in right now – self-image, screens, sexual situations, substance abuse, those four core things you cover in your book, Guy’s Guide to Four Battles Every Young Man Must Face. Let me mention that social media component in how it works in our self-image area. And I think, again, we play down gender in this culture. But gender has a role here. Boys and girls seemingly respond differently to social media and self-image. So, describe those differences. How do teen girls and teen boys differ when it comes to social media impact?
Jonathan: Yeah. No, no, I mean, there’s definite difference between the genders. And – and a lot of parents here, especially parents of younger boys, you’d sit here and say, “Well, my boys aren’t even interested in social media. They’re interested in video games,” right? Well, it’s interesting because most young people when they’re playing video games have a headset on and are connecting with someone else, and that’s actually kind of a social media there because you’re chatting with – sadly, very often – a stranger. And we’ve talked about that in past broadcasts. But where girls for sure very often, it’s that connecting, you know, going through that Instagram scroll and – and looking at what others are doing. But it is interesting because don’t discount the fact that guys really do also – then, you know, when they’re done playing video games and stuff, they do often go to that social media feed because social media, it’s just a reality of how young people connect with each other today. It’s a playground.
Jonathan: It – It’s a place where people get to know each other, where they try to measure up. Um, you know, it’s – there’s a pecking order on social media. And so, this is where young people kind of navigate and communicate. And very often, if something happens, it’s portrayed on social media. If you want to embarrass somebody, take a picture of ’em, post it on social media.
Jonathan: This is the playground of today. It’s – and that’s why we need to talk to young people about this and equip them for this journey on social media instead of just throwin’ them the car keys and saying, “Good luck.”
John: How many parents do you talk to, Jonathan, that would like to have that conversation, but they haven’t been able to overcome the allure of social media themselves?
Jonathan: Yeah. You know, I think that’s true, and I think it’s also not knowing where to start that conversation. But for sure. I mean, when moms and dads themselves are on Instagram or Facebook – and our kids aren’t on Facebook, but they’re on Instagram (laughter)…
Jonathan: …you know? And I don’t know where to navigate. What am I supposed to say, “Don’t do this thing that I do,” you know? So yeah, it is tough. And that’s one of the reasons where I try to create tools like this book that are things you can put in the hands of a young man, and we can dialogue with ’em about the stuff that matters, you know? We can have these conversations about the time they’re spending on screens. And, I mean, and honestly, the reason I put discussion questions at the end of a chapter is so – because I hope that a mom doesn’t just hand this to her kid. I hope that a mom or dad says, “Hey, let’s go to breakfast this week and talk about Chapter 7.”
Jim: Kind of use it as – as a study…
Jim: …Format. Uh, you do mention something else in the book that caught my attention, kind of this phrase that’s in the culture. I don’t hear this much at our house, but the “You do you” kind of phrase, which I think I get that. You know, be who you are. Be yourself, empowerment. You know, concentrate on what you are and that kind of thing. What are you driving at there?
Jonathan: Well, I just – I see that so much. I mean, you see – I – I think I saw a movie recently where there was a commercial at the beginning as a commercial for a Diet Coke or something like that.
Jonathan: And the girl was just like, “Hey. You can do what you want. If you want to do this, that’s fine. You do you.” And there’s – it’s the trendy thing to just kind of say, “Hey. You got to do what feels right at the moment.” And we talk a little bit about indulging, and are there consequences? And does that actually affect others? These are things that we need to navigate because, again, when young people are connected to nine-plus hours a day, on average…
Jonathan: …of entertainment media, you know, that’s a lot of messages in their head kind of affirming them that, “Hey, just, you know, go for it. Live for the moment.” You know? Yeah. “Let go. Lose control.” These are the messages we hear in music, more than anything else. “Let go. Lose control.”
Jonathan: We need to explore those.
Jim: And it’s in direct contradiction to a person of faith – a Christian…
Jim: …who wants to follow what Christ says to do, which is to love your neighbor, to lay your life down for others. I mean, that’s so contrary to, you do you (laughter).
Jonathan: And that’s – that’s why I love to – and I use a book like this as a perfect excuse to – to kind of almost just throw down that contrast. Instead of preaching at the kid, say, “Hey. We hear these messages in our culture, and here’s what the Bible says. Huh. What do you make of this?”
Jonathan: And kids are smart. A lot of these guys will sit and go, “Wow. You know, that – that doesn’t mesh”
Jonathan: You know? And they’ve seen that, and so that’s why I try to do, and I try to – I tell true stories of young people and some of these struggles and what happened in their lives. And it’s good to kind of explore that and be able to think and go, “Hey, is that the road I really want to go down?
Jim: Yeah. Jonathan, a big issue in the culture right now is opioid addiction, drug addiction. And of course, we’re sitting here in Colorado, a state that – one of the first states that legalized recreational marijuana use for anybody 21 or older. But teens get their hands on it, and there seems to be a passivity about it. Speak to the issue of substance abuse. That’s one of the four you – you mention in the book. Probably the most prevalent for teens would be alcohol and marijuana. But parents need – Christian parents, particularly, need to be aware – but all parents need to be aware of what their teen boys could get into.
Jonathan: Yeah. I – I think this is tough for, uh, Christian parents. And I think, um, as I look back at my own parenting, too, um, I didn’t have a lot of conversations about drugs with my kids. I think I just assumed, you know…
Jim: You won’t do it.
Jonathan: …that – that they just know that, you know, drugs are, you know, bad. And you wouldn’t do that. And – and I think in a lot of Christian homes, the drug conversations are, “Well, you know not to do that, right? You don’t want to be a pothead, right? OK. Well, there we go. Then it’s settled.” You know? They’re…
Jim: Kinda like the sex talk. We have it one time and we’re done.
Jonathan: Yeah. I was about to say, “About as quick as the sex talk,” you know? “You know not to do the bad thing? All right. There you go.” You know? And it’s one of those things where we gotta realize in our culture – um, a recent study showed that only 26% of 12th-graders think regular marijuana use offers any risk of harm – only 26%. So, three-quarters of, you know, high – guys graduated from high school think marijuana is no big deal. And you know what? If you listen to the music they’re listening to and watch the shows they’re watching – man, I tell you – you know, you listen to, like, Post Malone or any of the guys that are, like, in the – you know, in the top of the charts right now, it’s all about smoking this and, you know, having fun and who cares? And of course, then, to all a sudden, you know, turn on the news and see that, hey, this is legalized. This is such great, you know, medicinal value and – and this – and so young people – that’s the arguments they go to – not to mention that that device in their pocket, you know, has perfect access to tons of ignorant articles saying, “Hey, this is no big deal. It’s fine.”
Jonathan: So that’s why when I talk with young people about this, I don’t even navigate to arguments of, should it be legalized? Should we use it for medicinal, you know, purposes? I don’t even go there. I simply talk about one simple fact, and that is that even pro-pot advocates know that there is huge risk for a young person with a developing brain using marijuana. So, when it comes to talking about marijuana, I talk about the developing brain. You know, I don’t get into the argument about legalization. I – I simply say, “Hey, do you know that your brain’s still developing till age 25? And here’s what the brain experts are saying.” And when you unveil that research – is what I do a little – but I just kind of show them and then tell them stories because when you use marijuana as a young person, man, the risk factors are huge.
Jim: Jonathan, this is so good, and the advice you give in your book, Guy’s Guide to Four Battles Every Young Man Must Face, this is the kind of practical help the parents need. And I – `I’m speaking as a parent of teen boys.
John: Mm hmm.
Jim: I mean, this is good stuff. And I’m going to hopefully, uh, have my boys and I read this together and go through it because it really does equip them to answer big questions that they need to answer about what they’re doing in their lives. And are they making right decisions? And mom and dad, the reality is, um, you’re not always sure. You may know. But teen boys are smart. And they can outmaneuver you so easily. And, uh – and that – you need to start with that understanding that it may not be what you think it is. And that’s a healthy place to start, and then begin that dialogue to make sure they’re, you know, hopefully making wise and Biblically informed decisions about their life. And that’s what we want as Christian parents. And we’re here for you. You know, I’d love to put this in your hands. And for gift of any amount, um, we’ll do that as our way of saying thank you for helping us help others. And hopefully in that process, you as a parent, you’re getting the help you need, too. And if you can do that on a monthly basis, that is great. Jean and I – I think John, you and Dena support Focus that way.
John: We do, yeah.
Jim: If that’s not possible, a one-time will be fine, too. But, um, we want to get this into your hands. If you can’t afford it, we’ll get it into your hands anyway. Just call us.
John: Yeah, our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And you can also donate and get your copy of Guy’s Guide to Four Battles Every Young Man Must Face. At focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And plan to join us again as Melissa Ohden shares her miraculous story of surviving an abortion as a baby, and her journey to healing and God’s love.
Melissa Ohden: I think the greatest pieces of change for me came when I not only recognized, but truly – truly allowed myself to accept the fact that He makes no mistakes. You know, we live in this society that – that branded me as a mistake long ago, and that caused me a lot of suffering.