Dr. Kathy Koch explores the eight facets of human intelligence and explains how parents can identify and cultivate their child’s unique gifts. (Part 2 of 2)
Dr. Greg Smalley: The worst question you can ever ask is “How do I have a better marriage?” because it takes two. The best question is, “God, how can I be a better husband? How can I be a better wife? What is within my control?”
End of Excerpt
John Fuller: That’s Dr. Greg Smalley, and he joins us today on Focus on the Family, along with his co-author, Bob Paul. And I’m John Fuller, along with your host Focus president Jim Daly.
Jim Daly: John, I’ve said it many times, but there is one thing that we are core about and that’s marriage. I mean, that’s one of our core things. We want marriages to thrive. We want them to thrive in Christ ideally. And we do place a high emphasis on the institution of marriage because we believe in it. We believe it’s God’s design for the family. And I know hearing from the listeners and the viewers, they agree. I mean, that’s why they’re tuning in. They want to get some help. They want to have a better marriage. Jean and I want to do that. We’re learning every day. Especially it’s so fun when I come home and I say, “Hey, Jean, I’ve got a great idea. Let’s spend 10 minutes an evening together.” And she’ll say, “Who did you record with today?”
Jim: I – I thought I was wise, but I really get so much wisdom as you do, John, through listening to the guests that we have the privilege of interviewing. And that’s going to be the same today. I’m excited to interview two of our colleagues.
John: Yeah. Greg Smalley and Bob Paul join us. Greg is the Vice President of Marriage here at Focus on the Family and has been here a number of times. Bob heads up our Hope Restored marriage intensives and we’ll talk a little bit more about those as we go. Together they have a brand new book called 9 Lies That Will Destroy Your Marriage: And the Truths That Will Save It and Set It Free. It’s published by Focus on the Family. And of course, we have that here at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Greg and Bob, welcome to Focus.
Greg: Hey, thank you. It’s so good to be with you guys.
Jim: You’ve been here a few times, Greg. Bob, this is your first time.
Dr. Bob Paul: First time on the broadcast.
Jim: Yeah. So good to have you. And you’re normally out in Missouri at Branson…
Bob: That’s correct.
Jim: …And helping couples every day, right? At Hope Restored.
Bob: Absolutely. Absolutely. There and in Georgia and in Michigan. So, I’m all over the place for Focus.
Jim: Help us, um, talk about Hope Restored. Just fill in what happens there. People arrive. Couples arrive Sunday night, typically.
Bob: Yeah. It’s a – it’s a program that we have as – as you know, for couples that are struggling and generally in pretty severe crisis. They show up for our mainstay, which is our group program. They show up Sunday night. And then there’s – they’re there through the day on Thursday and they come often looking for a miracle.
Jim: Yeah. And it’s so exciting. And for those couples who are really struggling, those that are in great difficulty, this is the kind of thing, if you’re in that last and not in your marriage rope, give this a try. So many couples get turned around in this environment and this program has an 80 percent post two year success rate, meaning 80 percent of those couples are together and doing better. 97 percent satisfaction rating that couples come in that the experience exceeds their expectations. 97 percent. And the bottom line is you’ll go way healthier regardless of what happens in your marriage. You’ll be a healthier person. But the best thing is that 80 percent factor. We are saving marriages each and every day. And my hat’s off to both of you, Bob and Greg, for the great work that the team does there in Branson. Up in Michigan and also in Rome, Georgia. So well done. We hope to be expanding into California. All right, um, uh, let me crack this open. You both come from counseling families.
Jim: Your parents were in… so man. How messed up are your family’s?
Greg: Yeah, I grew up in the home of a guy named Gary Smalley. So, kind of one of the original gurus around marriage and family.
Jim: He was good.
Jim: He was so fun and playful.
Greg: Oh, I just – I mean, I’ve heard him speak, you know, a…
Greg: Million times and just he’s one of the very, very best. Went to be with the Lord about four years ago. You know what – what I love is – in where for me the passion for marriage came from as – as a young boy kind of going to watch him and I was enamored with him up on the stage in front of 1,000 people. I’m like, “What is happening? Why is he up there? Why are they paying to hear him for what I have to do for free?” But anyways, very confusing. But people would come up and they would, you know, literally give me this big hug. Strangers would come up and hug me and say, “Thank you for sharing. Your daddy saved our marriage.” And that left such an impression and as I got older, what really those stood out and why I wanted to follow in his footsteps is because everything that my dad talked about on stage, he really did live out. He wasn’t perfect and we had issues. But I tell you, he really, really lived those things out. So it wasn’t that he had his public persona of him up on stage is one person and then at home it’s a train wreck, a disaster, thus I don’t want to have anything to do with – with God, with ministry. But that wasn’t the case.
Greg: You know, I was fortunate to have a dad who was consistent and real in who he was on stage as who he was at home.
Jim: And that’s so critical, especially for Christian leaders, for pastors, that what people see is what you are.
Jim: And I think anything other than that is hypocrisy, actually. So, Bob, how about your experience? You grew up in Southern California. Your mom and dad, I think, were in the counseling arena.
Bob: Yeah. It’s interesting, the similarities as we got together and started working together a lot.
Jim: How many years ago was that?
Bob: Oh, it was 21 years ago. It was interesting to see the similarities and the differences. Unlike Greg, I – I – my family was broken. My parents got divorced, I think, before I was a year old, which was a long time ago and divorce was not normal in those days. Not like today. I was kind of an oddball because I went every other weekend to my dad and my stepmom’s house because both my parents remarried, and I grew up with two families that were relatively intact. No believers, though, in the bunch.
Bob: I’m the only Christian in the whole bunch. And, um, my dad and my stepmom of – along the way became therapists. And because of where we lived in West Los Angeles, they became therapists to the stars. I mean, it was – you know, they were authors also, which was really interesting and had bestselling books and did radio and television, so forth, but from a secular viewpoint. And as a young, impressionable boy I was very impressed, kind of idolized my dad and my stepmom for the work they were doing to change people’s lives. And what was really kind of interesting, and I see in hindsight how God kind of got hold of me and prepared me even before I knew Him…
Bob: …In that I started having some normal teenage issues with my mother. And I would go to my father and my stepmother and I would complain about what was going on between, you know, me and my mom. And they decided to help. So, they started giving me books at like 13 that were…
Bob: …Psychology books.
Greg: That’s amazing.
Bob: Like a book called, uh, Parent Effectiveness Training, which I devoured. And then if you could imagine how horrible this was…
Jim: That’s bad news.
Bob: I – I read the book and then I take it to my mom, and I say, “Mom, you really need to read this.”
Jim: How’d that go down?
Bob: You know, she wasn’t excited about that. But it’s funny. Years later, I was already married. I was thumbing through their bookshelf one day and I found that book with a different book sleeve on it…
Bob: …In the bookshelf. So, I’m assuming she actually read it. But I kept reading those – those books and it started really infiltrating my psyche. And I started learning to think psychologically. No idea that God was preparing me for this work. I really had no clue. But He was getting me to think differently.
Jim: All right. Let’s turn to the – the – the book and – and talk about what you’ve discovered in your practices, et cetera. One is just marriage in general. When you look at the culture, there seems to be because of the – I guess, the divorce rate and people’s disillusionment with marriage, the culture generally is pulling back. You have some of the culture saying we need to do away with the nuclear family. I think it’s crazy. I think it’s the beginning of the problems in the culture that we don’t have healthy, intact families. But what’s your read of why the culture is pulling back from the institution of family? Where did the institution come from and why is that under attack?
Greg: You know, God created marriage, so man did not. It was God’s gift to us and thus it’s opposed. And so, the evil one, Satan, hates marriage, hates what it stands for. And I really believe a big part of what’s going on in our culture right now is that Satan is so committed to destroy marriage because he fears what our marriage could be. When you have a – a husband and wife together figuring out how – how can we use this gift that God’s given us to serve others, to love others? That is one of the most powerful forces on earth. And Satan knows that. And so, he’s – he tries to create chaos. He wants couples to buy into lies that they start trying to live out that completely then destroys their marriage. That’s what Bob and I see when couples come in for an intensive. They’ve – they’ve bought into lies. They want a great marriage. There – these lies, though, exist, these myths, and they don’t get them there at all. And I and I really believe it’s because Satan is trying to create the – that chaos…
Greg: …Because he fears what we could be.
Jim: Okay. Let’s get to the – we’re gonna try to cover the nine today and tomorrow. I don’t know that we’ll get to all nine. But if you miss any of the program, make sure you download it. John will give those details in a minute. But let’s get to the first one. In fact, you share the story of Zach and Katie, who added to their wedding vows “and they lived happily ever after” at their ceremony. That fairytale idea, that’s the first lie. So, take a whack at it.
Bob: You know, it’s interesting that – um, that whole fairytale view of marriage has so infiltrated our Western culture for sure. And the idea when you get married is, you’re hoping that, you know, it starts once upon a time. And certainly, the love that I have right now for my spouse has to be leading toward “and they all lived happily ever after.” And happiness – I mean, it’s – it’s built into the fabric of the American culture, for sure. When you think about, you know, the Declaration of Independence, you know, and we’re – we’re able to pursue “life, liberty and the – the pursuit of happiness.” And happiness isn’t a bad thing. I mean, frankly, I’m kind of partial to happy and I prefer more the less. I’m convinced God wants us to be happy. But when you think that happiness is the key, that happiness is the goal, you are so set up because obviously God put us here on purpose with purpose and there’s a cosmic battle that’s going on between good and evil. And happiness can’t be the primary goal. There’s a purpose bigger than happiness.
Jim: Okay. But – but in that, where are we getting those signals? The media? What? How come, A, it’s not bad to have a bar to be reaching for. I want a happy, joyful marriage. I think that’s Okay. Where does that break down to where it becomes a lie, Greg?
Greg: The lie is that my end in mind is to feel happy versus when – when I think about my marriage, I think about Erin and I on this grand adventure. We’re on a journey. My goal isn’t to be happy. My goal is to journey in this life with Erin together.
Jim: Through all the valleys and the mountain tops.
Greg: Through all of that.
Greg: Because if my goal is happiness, then what happens when we’re not happy? What happens when we’re in pain and were frustrated in something’s going on? It’s so confusing. As Bob said, then, maybe it’s me. Maybe she’s the problem. Versus…
Jim: (Laughter) I wouldn’t go there.
Greg: Yeah. I wouldn’t say that out loud I’m just – in my mind…
Greg: …I’m thinking that. But what I – what I love when – when the goal is to be on a journey with my wife. 1 Corinthians 7:28 says, “That for those who marry, you will face problems.” I mean, that’s straight out of the Bible. We are going to hit these high times in – and to where we feel joy and we experience happiness. We’re going to hit low moments where there’s going to be a lot of pain.
Greg: And what I love is that there is no one else on earth that I’d rather be with on this grand adventure, not knowing what’s around the next corner, what we’re going to face. For me, the goal is growing, is growth, not happiness. I want to keep becoming more like Christ. I want to – I want to be a better husband. And so, my outlook is not happiness. It’s growth on this journey.
Jim: Okay, but that reality is – that’s your goal. Sometimes you got to say, “Okay, I don’t feel like being a better husband right now.”
Greg: And there are – there are plenty of times I’m sure Erin would say, “Yeah. I experience him that way.” And – and I’m human and there are going to be those moments.
Greg: And I’m going to go through those seasons where I’m – it’s about me. I’m selfish, I’m prideful. But the end of the day, I want to keep growing as an individual and as a husband and having our marriage become a marriage that we are both thrilled with. That – that’s the target.
Jim: So, you’re looking at the trend line of your life?
Jim: I mean, that’s the Christian walk.
Jim: You want that trend line to be improving…
Jim: …Over the course of your life that more of the fruit of the spirit is who you are over time.
John: Well, we want to help you grow in your marriage. And one great way for you to do that would be to get a copy of this book, 9 Lies That Will Destroy Your Marriage, written by Bob Paul and Greg Smalley. We’ve got it at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY.
Jim: All right, Bob, let me throw this one to you and, Greg, you can add on. The second lie. Um, kind of the equation of marriage and what does it mean? You mention that the – the typical wedding ceremony – which I’m laughing because Jean and I did this…
Jim: …Which is the unity candle. It’s beautiful.
Greg: It is.
Jim: It makes sense. It’s right out of Scripture.
Jim: I think that, you know, “two shall become one.” And we did it. We, you know, had to individually lit candles. We lit the one candle, blew the other candles out together. It was beautiful.
Greg: I have a tear in my eye thinking about it.
Jim: Yes. There – I’m glad.
Jim: Why is that a – a lie? The – the two shall become one. That’s right out of Scripture.
Bob: Yeah. That – that part’s not a lie. The understanding of what is meant by one is the problem.
Jim: Okay. Give it to me.
Bob: Okay. So, um, when you try and become one with Jean. I’ve known you guys for a while now.
Bob: And as far as I can see, if oneness, becoming one, is your goal, you two are a failure…
Bob: …Because every time I see you, I see still Jim and Jean.
Jim: You’re right. We’re not like attached at the hip.
Bob: Two. And the problem is…
Greg: You’re not the same.
Bob: Yeah. One – one – and one of the biggest problems is, is that – that because in English we use the – the word one to mean multiple things. In this case, to assume it means the number one we’re set up to fail. We can’t become the same as one with our spouse. Oneness Scripturally is meant to be unity, oneness and spirit and purpose, not the same. And the other thing is, is that each of us were created by God on purpose, with purpose. And each of us have a unique journey together. When you get married, there’s me and there’s, in my case, Jenny, and there’s us. You add a third journey and what – the problem that I see with the unity candle is what you said happens at the end. They blow out the individual candles. And when I’m at a wedding, everything in me wants to stand up and start shouting…
Bob: …Which of course, would….
John: It would be disruptive.
Bob: They’d probably kick me out.
John: They won’t invite you back.
Jim: How many weddings do you go to?
Greg: We strap him to a chair.
Bob: I hate – because of that kind of stuff. I hate weddings. I feel at the end of a wedding, I want to go up and hand them my card and say…
Bob: …”You’ll want to hold on to this…”
John: What’s so bad about it?
Bob: “…Because you might need this.”
John: I mean, I hear you saying that blowing it out is – is signifying that now the old me is gone and we’re – we’re just one.
Greg: Because the marriage becomes the priority. Married – the marriage becomes the focus. The individuals then sort of fade away into the background. And all we’re saying is that all three have to matter. You, your spouse and your marriage…
Greg: …Equally all have to matter and have to be attended to.
Jim: Well, I think – and I think the idea is you become selfless, more selfless. It’s natural for human beings to be selfish. That’s why the Lord said “Be more like Me.” And He is selfless, right? He’s giving. And I think that’s the construct of it. All right, Bob, you had an example with you and your wife were vacations were, uh – sounded like a terrible thing.
Jim: Which is horrible that your vacation (unintelligible).
John: I love these examples.
Greg: …these vacations. Weddings.
Jim: But here’s – here’s a practical way you could work through this.
Jim: What happened?
Bob: Well, it’s – and it’s because we are, John, fundamentally different. And after almost 40 years of marriage, we are still fundamentally different.
John: Fundamentally different.
Bob: So, vacations were a common problem for us because my idea of the perfect vacation is hanging out on the beach, doing as close to nothing as I possibly can. Jenny, is a pedal to the metal kind of gal.
Jim: See everything. Do everything.
Bob: Everything. Okay. We – before we go on a trip, we have to go get the AAA guide…
Bob: …And see where all the gems are between point A and point B, because the more we can do in that amount of time, the better. So, I end up…
Greg: It’s good stewardship. Come on.
Bob: Yeah. I end at vacay – at the end of a vacation feeling like I need a vacation from the vacation. I’m so exhausted. And Jenny, goes stir crazy doing it my way. So, we were trying to figure out a way to resolve this and we prayerfully found a solution. Let’s try this. And what we decided to do, and this is just one way to work through things. But it’s where our differences became a blessing. We decided to try on a trip to Yellowstone and Grand Teton. We had a road trip for three weeks. It was day on, day off, day on, day off. The day on, we packed as much in as we possibly can.
Bob: The day off, we just chilled. And what we found and what was so fascinating is that both of us can overdo our part to an extreme. And I can actually under due to the point of boredom and she can overdo to the point of exhaustion. This turned out to be the best vacation we’ve ever had. And we – we both ended up refreshed and excited. It was fabulous.
Jim: That’s great. That’s the way it should work. All right. A lot of these love lies seem to be laced with some truth. I think we’re identifying that which can make them kind of hard to distinguish. You know, what we talked about with unity and becoming one seems like the right thing. Hopefully, people are understanding your definitions and what the concern is. The third love lie is all you need is love. I want to make sure I attribute that to the Beatles.
Jim: I think they coined that phrase. But what makes that a lie? It sounds so good. All you need is love. Come on, Greg.
Greg: Yeah. (Laughter)
Jim: All you need is love.
Greg: I think the problem is, is that when – it’s how people think and define love. So, for – there’s a big group of people that see love is all about that passionate feeling that they experience, the emotional part of – of love. And you’ve got another group that when they think about love, it’s that decision. I mean, my father wrote one of his bestselling books was Love is a Decision. So, there’s going to be times you don’t feel love and you’ve got to make that decision. So, you find it’s kind of those two camps. It’s either the focus is on the emotional feeling part of it or the commitment, the decision. And sadly, it completely misses the truth about love, which is God is love. We don’t create love. God is love and when we begin to understand that there’s no part of love that I create and generate. It’s not about a feeling. It’s not just about a commitment. It’s understanding that – that my job is actually to keep my heart open so that God, who is Love flows through me. That’s one of the best things that we see happen in an intensive is couples begin to really understand that, “Okay, so maybe part of the problem is that how I view love.” Like we get all the time couples will come in and just say, “Well, I don’t – I don’t feel love anymore towards my spouse.”
Bob: And they think that’s the end.
Bob: At that point, that’s the end of their marriage because the love is gone.
Bob: And – and I tell you, the truth is, when I’m sitting in the therapist chair at that point, because I understand how love actually works, that’s one of the least troubling things anybody can say to me, because the only reason the love isn’t there at that point, since God is love and it all comes from Him, is that somehow the top door to their hearts closed…
Bob: …And the love is not able to come through. Because honestly, if we want to experience the fullness of love for our spouse, all we have to do is ask the Lord to let us see through His eyes and feel with His heart. And it will be there in abundance.
Jim: Yeah, that’s the golden nugget right there. I mean, that’s what it’s all about. Greg, you have a story – and sometimes these things can take on small steps. It doesn’t have to be something gigantic, although that’s good, too. But you had a story about just making the bed.
Jim: I mean, that seems – seems so simple, but it really – it – it ministered to Erin, your wife’s heart
Greg: Yeah, my – my wife and I’ve had this ongoing argument over 20 years of marriage…
Greg: …Which is why do we make a bed? I love the comedian…
Jim: I’m with Erin.
Greg: I’m – I love the comedian Jim Gaffigan comparing making a bed to taking your shoes off and then tying them.
Greg: It’s like why? I want to get back into the bed how I like – how I left it in. And so, we’ve just battled that. And I kind of finally went, you know, if you want the bed made, you go for that. That – that’s your choice until she had a foot injury and was in a cast and I walked into our bedroom and I watched my precious wife (laughter) in a cast hop around the perimeter of our bed trying to make it. And I said, “Okay. This is like sick. Like there’s…”
Greg: “…Okay, seriously, you’re going to injure yourself. It’s a bed. Let it go.” And – and in the course of that discussion, really understanding why that was so important to her and how much that meant to have a bed made. I finally got it.
Greg: And thus, I realized, you know, that, that could even be a part of a way that I sacrificed for her, that I invest in my wife, which is really the fourth lie that we see.
Jim: Well, I was going to ask you about that exactly.
Jim: The sacrifice and the misunderstanding of the definition of what it means.
Jim: Go ahead and describe it.
Greg: Yeah. I – I think how sacrifice becomes a lie is that we really misunderstand that God is created us with such value. And my sacrifice is actually taking this value that’s God’s given me and using it as an asset, as an investment, as a way to invest in my wife. And so, recognizing how important that that bed was in having a bed made was for her, it gave me a choice. I mean, I – I could either take this investment that God’s given me, me, and actually use that as a way, use the time, use the effort, use the energy that it would take to make the bed every day. And so, that day I told her, I said, “Okay. I get it. Watching you hop around this bed, I get how important this is.” I said, “From this day forward, I’m doing that.”
Jim: Let me turn the table a little. We’re four guys sitting at this table and I want to represent at least Jean…
Jim: …But maybe women listening as well. Because I think women in this perspective – this is tough for them because they believe I – I have to sacrifice who I am for the sake of my marriage and my husband. So, let’s put it in that context from a woman’s perspective, that sense of sacrifice. “I gave up my career for the family. I gave up this.” Um, speak to the need to kind of put that in perspective. How God sees that and what’s healthy and unhealthy.
Bob: Well, I think giving generously is what sacrifice is about, but you – it’s imperative that we recognize who we are in Christ and that for the gift to be of great value what’s being given must be of great value. So, to see yourself as less than in any way actually cheapens the gift when you really get the fullness of who you are and how valuable you are and then you take that and you invest sacrificially in somebody else, now you’ve given something of great value – your time, your energy, your gifts, who you are. And it’s imperative that when we sacrifice, we give sacrificially, it’s coming from a place of value, not a place of valuelessness.
Jim: But let me press you a little bit. So, at Hope Restored you’re seeing literally hundreds, thousands of couples.
Jim: How do you prevent that root of bitterness from springing up?
Bob: Well, we want everybody that comes to really get who they are in Christ and we work hard for them to see this is not about you being less than this is about you being fully who you were created to be. Spread your wings and soar. A great marriage is always one that has room for us to grow into the fullness of who we were created to be and bring all of our gifts to the table.
Jim: That’s a great place to stop for today. And we’re going to come back and cover the other lies in marriage and the truths that will, I think, set you free in your marriage. Hey, let me turn to the listeners. I said at the beginning here at Focus on the Family, we want your marriage to thrive in Christ. I mean, that’s ideal. If you don’t know the Lord, that’s job one. We want to talk to you about that. We’d like to introduce you to a relationship with Jesus Christ. You know, Dr. Dobson always said, and I firmly believe this, the staff here believe it as well. We can help you in your marriage, but if we haven’t talked about your spiritual dimension – Who is the author of marriage? We’ve kind of failed. So, I want to make it clear that we believe a commitment to Christ is fundamental, not only to your marriage, but to your life in general, obviously, and to your eternal life. And then from there, it’s how do you do this well? And we want to help. I know the pandemic has put extra special pressure on some marriages. Some are doing well. Given that we’ve had more time to be together. But some are, um, fracturing because of that time together. And we’re here for you. Let me also just mention, you put the fuel in the engine here at Focus. So, if you haven’t supported focus recently, maybe I could ask you, I’d like to ask you, to consider supporting us. And certainly, one of the great ways to do that right now is send a gift of any amount and we’ll send a copy of Bob and Greg’s book, 9 Lies, and that will be our way of saying thank you. And in addition to that, we have some generous friends who have made a match available.
John: Mm hmm.
Jim: It’s just a fun way to spur on giving. So, when you give $25, it becomes 50. And together we can help many more marriages. So, if I can, let me lean into you, because the pandemic has hit us here at Focus, too. Giving is slightly down. And we would love to continue to meet a growing need in the marriage and parenting areas and we need your help now.
John: Mm. Yeah. Get in touch today. Our number is 800-A-FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Online we’re at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Ask for your copy of 9 Lies That Will Destroy Your Marriage. Donate if you can. And we do have counselors here. We can tell you more about Hope Restored. If you’re in a spot of pain in your marriage. We want that encouragement we’ve heard from Bob and Greg to come out to you personally. So, call us if we can be of help. Again, the number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team here, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Join us again tomorrow for more of the conversation with Greg Smalley and Bob Paul, as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Dr. Kathy Koch explores the eight facets of human intelligence and explains how parents can identify and cultivate their child’s unique gifts. (Part 2 of 2)
Dr. Kathy Koch explores the eight facets of human intelligence and explains how parents can identify and cultivate their child’s unique gifts. (Part 1 of 2)
Exploring the question “What makes us equal?” pro-life advocate Scott Klusendorf makes the case that all human beings are of immeasurable worth, including the preborn. He equips listeners to be effective, respectful, and compassionate in speaking up for those who do not have a voice. (Part 2 of 2)
Pastor Dave Carder offers couples practical advice for protecting their marriages from adultery in a discussion based on his book Anatomy of an Affair: How Affairs, Attractions, and Addictions Develop, and How to Guard Your Marriage Against Them. (Part 1 of 2)
Pastor Dave Carder offers couples practical advice for protecting their marriages from adultery in a discussion based on his book Anatomy of an Affair: How Affairs, Attractions, and Addictions Develop, and How to Guard Your Marriage Against Them. (Part 2 of 2)
Jonathan McKee offers parents practical advice and encouragement in a discussion based on his book If I Had a Parenting Do Over: 7 Vital Changes I’d Make.