Day One:
Mom #1: It’s not that I don’t like being a mom, it’s just that I wish someone would appreciate what I do around here.
Mom #2: Let’s just say one word, diapers. Ugh.
Mom #3: Honey, a woman’s work is never done.
John Fuller: Well, if you’re a busy mom, especially with younger children, you can probably relate to those comments. Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we’ll explore some of those day-to-day challenges of motherhood, and we’ll have lots of encouragement and insights from moms who are going through the same thing.
Jim Daly: Yeah. Hey, right from the outset, let me say, we know moms do work at home, and some moms work outside the home and at home. And more dads are doing more things around the house too. That’s just the way the modern family operates. So, if we say something and you’re going, “Oh, that’s stereotypical.” That’s not our intention. It’s just our experience.
And I want to open with that kind of story ’cause I got home from work when our boys were probably like, six and four. And Jean literally met me at the door and kind of pushed the boys right into me.
Dr. Jenny Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, I had one foot in the door-
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Kristen Rusch: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jim: … and she said, “I am kind of tired of some of the shenanigans that have gone on today.”
Kristen: (laughs)
Ashley Durand: (laughs)
Kristen: “You need to take over.” And, uh, Jean’s an awesome mom, but she kind of (laughs) ended up in the short end of that rope for that day.
John: Even the awesome moms.
Jim: And I said, “Can I just change? Can I just change my clothes?”
Kristen: (laughs)
Ashley: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jim: And she’s like, “Yeah. Do what you need to do but engage these guys because I am through today.” (laughs) So…
John: Oh, my.
Jim: But it was so fun. And she, you know, she’s a great mom. And uh, that’s what we want to talk about today is for the moms that feel like you’re at the end of your rope on days, especially with the little ones because there’s so much activity, so much kinetic activity going on. Chasing them down. Changing diapers. You know, whatever can be done with the other things on your list, it feels overwhelming. But we want to give you hope today that you can do this.
John: Yeah. It’s a privilege and a wonderful role and a demanding role.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John: And we have, uh, three moms in the studios with us. We’re excited to have Kristen Rusch, Ashley Durand, and Dr. Jenny Coffey. Uh, Kristen and Ashley have two young children, and they’ve co-authored a book called, and it’s published by Focus on the Family. It’s called Mothering on Empty: How Moms Like You Found God’s Joy. Jenny’s the mom of four. She’s a marriage and family therapist, and she works on our counseling team here. She’s been in the booth and also in the studio with us before.
Jim: Yeah, that’s for sure. Well, let me say, welcome to all of you. It’s great to have you two for the first time. And Jenny, good to have you back.
Kristen: Thanks.
Ashley: Thanks. Great to be here.
Jim: Yeah. So, was that a fair description of, “Ah, crazy”?
Ashley: (laughs)
Kristen: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: Is that how… What does it sound like to you to be the mother of young children?
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Jim: Give me the noise.
Ashley: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Well, it’s, it’s interesting now because some, mine are getting older, which is weird.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: Like-
Jim: 14 to nine if I know it correctly.
Dr. Coffey: Right. My oldest is 14, and then my youngest is nine. So, it’s more of like, I remember when people told me when they were younger, like, the young years are the physically exhausting years, and the older years are the emotionally exhausting years.
Jim: Yeah, I think that’s right.
Dr. Coffey: And that has proven to be so true-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: … because especially with my job, it’s like I come home and I’m sound, like, my sensory is out.
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: You know, like, my hearing is like, “Oh my word, I’ve been listening all day.”
Jim: So, you can relate to Jean.
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Jim: That little story there.
Dr. Coffey: And then they want to tell me stuff.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: Of course, you know? And I’m like, “Yes, okay.”
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: Like, gotta find, gotta find it.
Jim: Moms are wonderful. Moms are always there. So, what’s your animal noise for the busy time of the season?
Dr. Coffey: (laughs)
Ashley: (laughs)
Kristen: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jim: Like, “Ah.” What’s it sound like, Ashley?
Ashley: Uh, yes, exactly. Uh, “Ah.” (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
Kristen: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Yeah, yeah.
Jim: So, I’m in the range, right?
Dr. Coffey: Yes, yes.
Ashley: Yes, you got it spot on. I was laughing because that’s a very relatable story. I feel like, um, as a mom with young children, there are days when I wake up and I have the best plans for the day of all the activities that the kids are gonna do and love, and the chores that are gonna happen and-
Jim: Right.
Ashley: … the homemade meal that is gonna be the best. And everyone’s gonna love it. And then as the day unfolds, somebody colors markers on the hard floors. The neighbors pop by. The toilet overflows.
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Ashley: I didn’t get a chance to brush my teeth, you know?
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Jim: And it’s 3:00 PM. (laughs)
Ashley: It’s 3:00 PM.
Dr. Coffey: Tragic, yeah.
Ashley: Uh, one day, a skunk showed up in our yard when we were outside, and it didn’t spray us. But it sprayed the yard and the whole house and the car. Everything smelled for like weeks.
Jim: Oh my. Wow.
Ashley: (laughs) Anyway, there was one day like that where I was completely overwhelmed by how the day had unfolded. And I had managed to make dinner, and it was on the table, and everyone was just picking at their food. Nobody was eating it. And I just burst into tears and I said, “Don’t you know how hard it was for me to get this meal on the table?” (laughs).
Dr. Coffey: Mm.
Jim: Right.
Ashley: “I worked, I put my heart into it, and you guys don’t even care.”
Jim: We’re hitting all the high notes here.
Ashley: Yes. (laughs)
Jim: All the moms are going, “Yep, yep. Check, check, check.”
Kristen: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: And then she just starts spoon-feeding them. Like, “You’re gonna eat this.”
Jim: Exactly. All right, Kristen, I need yours. I’m not gonna let you skate here.
Kristen: Yes. Oh man, I am not good at sound effects. Oh.
Jim: Oh.
Kristen: What am I gonna do? Okay.
Jim: Oh, that’s good. You could be the calm mom.
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: “Honey, everything will be fine.”
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Kristen: Oh, yes.
Jim: Are you kind of in that category?
Kristen: I would like to be that mom. (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Ashley: (laughs)
John: Oh, there you go.
Jim: Let me ask you though. I mean, you kind of opened this can because it is expectations.
Kristen: Mm.
Jim: Like, you know, you have it all laid out, especially if you’re a list maker.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And you know, kind of organized in your thinking. And this is how 9:00 is gonna roll and 10:00, and noon’s gonna be just like this. It doesn’t work that way, does it?
Kristen: No. And I didn’t realize how controlling (laughs) I was-
Jim: (laughs)
Kristen: … until I had kids. And they totally threw the rule book out the window.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: I was like, “Oh, okay. This is how it’s gonna be. All right.” (laughs) I’m gonna have to learn how to be flexible and roll with it and be okay with that.
Jim: Let me start in that spot because I think when you look at what is God teaching us as we are the adults in the room so often reflects what we’re trying to teach our kids, right?
Kristen: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But that idea of control, you’re- control’s an illusion.
Kristen: Yes.
Jim: Don’t you think?
Kristen: Yes, absolutely. And motherhood has been such a journey of learning to surrender, not only my kids to the Lord and entrust them to the Lord but also surrender myself to the Lord.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: And say, “Wow, I’m so inadequate for this job.”
Jim: Well, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family.
Kristen: (laughs)
Ashley: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jim: I think you just nailed it right there.
Dr. Coffey: That’s it.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Jenny, as a counselor, I do want to have you pitch into that a little bit because, um, that is true. I mean, when your kids are young, and that’s the theme of our discussion today. Control is natural.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We want to control their environment. I mean, oh my goodness, did you guys buy all the stuff?
Ashley: (laughs)
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: The, the, you know, the protector around the fireplace, all the electrical.
Ashley: Yes.
Jim: The cabinet. Can’t open the cabinet door without pushing it down thing. I mean, we had a weekend where Jean said, “Okay, they’re getting into this stuff.”
Dr. Coffey: It’s, it’s time. Yeah.
Jim: It’s time. And that’s the safety-ization-
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Ashley: (laughs)
Jim: … of your home. So, but, and that’s good control because you want to keep your young children safe.
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Jim: But if you maintain that into later years, even, I mean, later like, seven, eight, nine-
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … it starts to become a problem.
Dr. Coffey: Right. And I would say, to your point of control’s an illusion, I would say ultimate control is an illusion. I think it’s okay-
Jim: Yeah, that’s a good way to say it.
Dr. Coffey: … to control, control in a sense of have-
Jim: That’s true.
Dr. Coffey: … some autonomy over self, right?
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: To say like, “Oh, I, if there’s only a few things I can get done today, these are the things I’m going to try to get done.” Like the meal.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: Okay, the meal happened. There, that’s a sense of control because she could have picked a couple other things.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: So yes. As they get older, I mean, even one of the things that we know is from about zero to eight or nine, depending on maturity, children are completely others-motivated.
Jim: Right.
Dr. Coffey: Like, they need that reminder of others-motivated. Around eight, nine, depending on maturity, to about 16, we hope that they are a mix of self and others-motivated. So-
Jim: Yeah, that’s a normal growth pattern.
Dr. Coffey: Yeah. Maybe you forgot your lunch, and I let you forget it today, like, those types of things. And then hopefully by 16, they’re completely self-motivated.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: And so that, to your point of the control, it’s like, yeah, if we’re still doing some of that stuff at 10, 11, 12, we’re actually keeping them back when they’re older.
Jim: Yeah. Ashley, you get all the good questions here.
Ashley: Oh. (laughs)
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: Because I’m thinking of uh, I’m thinking of the time Jean and I, before we had kids. And we’re at like, Sam’s Club or something, and we see this kid meltdown. And mom is, you know, struggling to get control. And of course, those without children go, “You know, when we have kids-”
Kristen: (laughs)
Ashley: (laughs)
Jim: … “That will never happen.” Until I got a phone call from Jean getting out of a Walmart line and she said, “Oh, Trent went crazy over a candy bar. I kept saying no. And he would, he had this meltdown. And this army guy in his uniform came over and said, ‘Son, you need to listen to your mother.'” (laughs) And it freaked Trent out.
Ashley: (laughs)
Kristen: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jim: He was probably like, three.
Dr. Coffey: Mm.
Jim: But he already made the connection. This dude in a uniform has authority, right?
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But I don’t know who that was but thank you. Because I was traveling, I wasn’t there to help, but this guy got Trent’s attention. What was your meltdown experience?
Ashley: Yes. (laughs)
Jim: And was it you or your children?
Kristen: (laughs)
Ashley: Well, one leads to the other, you know? (laughs)
Jim: Yeah. Isn’t that true?
Ashley: So, um, yeah. Before I had kids, I also was very much like, I had this idea that I was never gonna be, um, disciplining my kids in anger. I wasn’t going to be a yelling mom. I was just always gonna be so graceful and patient. And then-
Jim: (laughs)
Ashley: (laughs) And then I had a child that was exactly like me, and that triggered me in ways I didn’t know-
Jim: Oh wow.
Ashley: … were possible. (laughs) But one day we were at the library. My son was about three at the time. And I’d given him a five-minute warning, “We’re gonna be leaving in five minutes so finish up your coloring.” Well, five minutes went by, and he was not ready to leave. He threw a huge meltdown. Threw himself on the floor, screaming. Um, everyone… I felt the library, you know, the library’s quiet. Everyone’s-
Jim: (laughs) Yeah. Have you seen this librarian giving you the eyeball?
John: Yeah. (laughs)
Ashley: Everyone’s staring at me. And I’m, I had a new baby at the time. I was holding a bag of books. So, I’m holding the baby, the books, and I’m trying to pick up this toddler off the floor. He screamed, “Don’t touch me.”
Jim: (laughs)
Kristen: (laughs)
Ashley: I mean, my inner, like, uh, pressure is building, you know?
Jim: Right.
Ashley: Um, and I start sweating a little bit. Like, everyone’s watching me. I felt like they all were thinking, “What a terrible mom. She can’t control her kids.” And finally, it was like an Olympic sport. I got the baby, the toddler, the bag of books out to the car, and he’s screaming the whole entire way.
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: And when we get to the car, suddenly, Mount Vesuvius erupts. And I just started screaming back at him. And I instantly felt this shame of this is not the kind of mom I wanted to be.
Kristen: Yeah.
Ashley: Um, and I, as I reflected on it later, you know, why was I so angry?
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: It wasn’t because he wasn’t wanting to leave the library. It was because I was putting too much of my identity in what the random library patrons thought of me.
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Jim: (laughs)
Ashley: And feeling like a failure rather than, what did my son actually need? And in response, I threw a, an adult sized tantrum.
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: And that wasn’t going to bring about the Gospel change in him or in me. It’s just going to make me feel more like a failure.
Jim: When you’re touching on something that’s important for all of us as parents, whether you’re a mom or a dad-
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: … this idea that we derive our sense of worth out of how our children behave-
Ashley: Right.
Jim: … especially as Christians.
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Jim: I think we, in the Christian community, put a lot of value on that. And we love to hear, “Your children are so well-behaved. What have you done?” “Well, I pray four hours a day.”
Dr. Coffey: (laughs)
Kristen: (laughs)
Ashley: Right.
Jim: “And God honors that and has given me wonderful children.” But Jenny, talk about that idea of… And you know, you might have some very compliant children.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that’s a great thing. God bless you. Most of us didn’t get all of that.
Ashley: (laughs)
Kristen: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Jim: And so, the reality is you know, children push those buttons for reasons. But clinically, again, I mean, the idea that we’re trying to see too much of us in our children’s behavior.
Dr. Coffey: Yeah. I mean, I think that that’s probably one of the hardest parts of parenting is to like to what Ashley was saying, is you see something in them that is a reflection of something that you don’t love about yourself. And you were hoping that they wouldn’t have to do it.
Jim: So, how do you let the air out of that? How do you-
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Jim: You know, somebody that has three and four-year-olds, and she’s struggling in that spot right now because she just had the meltdown in the library.
Ashley: (laughs)
Jim: Thank you very much.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What is the prep for her to say, “Okay, next time you’re in that situation, here’s some things to think about.”
Dr. Coffey: Yeah. Well, one of the things I think to remember too, I like to remind people that more often than not, if you have a child that’s pretty compliant at school… I mean, the public thing is hard, especially when they’re toddlers.
Ashley: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: But at school, in church, at other places, and they tend to melt down at home, what that actually means is that they feel super safe at home. And they feel emotionally safe to be able to do that because nobody can keep it all together all the time.
Jim: Right.
Dr. Coffey: And so, that’s actually a lot of moms or dads will get into this place where they’re like, “They’re so nice for Mrs. So-and-so. Why are they terrible to us?” I’m like, “This actually, like, shows that they feel like you’re emotionally safe enough to completely lose it.”
Jim: Right.
Dr. Coffey: And then it is our job to help them self-regulate. But in those moments, you know, what I tried to remember especially, it’s hard to not reactively parent.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: I mean, that’s typically what happens in those moments. Like, more often than not, I have tried to remember, like you said, so and Jane Doe library patron-
Ashley: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: … like, it doesn’t necessarily matter.
Jim: Yeah, right.
Dr. Coffey: And, um-
Jim: You probably never see her again.
Dr. Coffey: No, right. And so, you kind of sit in that place and you say, “I have to care in this moment more about what my kid needs than what this 60-year-old woman thinks or this 50-year-old man.” Like, “I have to care more about what my kid needs in the moment.” Because they do, at that age, absolutely need you to help them co-regulate.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: They cannot do it on their own.
Jim: Yeah. And it’s always good to try to be the adult.
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Jim: I mean, just be telling yourself the whole time because it’s so easy to tip into the emotionalism of going toe-to-toe.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I’m a lot bigger than you. I can take you. (laughs) I mean, you’re going, “What, what am I thinking?”
Kristen, I’m not going to let you out of this.
Kristen: Oh, no. (laughs)
Jim: You’re just so, you’re just so, you’re just the perfect mom.
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: There’s a story in the book where you had something unusual: an ungrateful child.
John: Oh.
Jim: (laughs)
Kristen: Yes, never.
Jim: I say that tongue in cheek.
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: But what was your situation that uh, expressed itself to you?
Kristen: Yes. So, talk about a mirror moment (laughs), where… So, my son had outgrown his previous scooter. And I was able to find another scooter that was, in my opinion, excellent.
Jim: You are a great mom.
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: That’s what is… You’re hearing in your head.
Dr. Coffey: Yes, sure.
Jim: “I am such a good mom. Look what I did.”
Kristen: “Look at what I got for him. He’s gonna love this. He’s gonna be over the moon. I cannot wait to give him the scooter.” I show him the scooter, and he yells at me, “It’s not as fast as my old other scooter. What did you do with my other scooter?” I was like, “Are you kidding me right now?”
Jim: (laughs)
Kristen: Like, (laughs) “We spent money on this new scooter. Your other one was falling apart, and you want your old scooter. And you’re not grateful at all that I went out of my way to find you this new scooter.” And I was so excited, and this was gonna be a beautiful family moment and like, “What?” (laughs)
Jim: Did you try, “This one’s much faster.”
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: Just, I don’t know that he could clock it. Does he have a radar gun or what?
Kristen: I know. I should have told him-
Dr. Coffey: That’s a boy response.
Kristen: … “I’m gonna time you, and I’m gonna prove to you that this was faster.”
Dr. Coffey: (laughs)
Jim: I would do that.
Kristen: But in the moment my jaw just dropped. I had no response. What do I even say to this? And then in my spirit, I could hear the Lord telling me like, “You also do this by the way.” (laughs)
Jim: Oh, wow.
Kristen: And it was just one of those convicting moments where I realized, no, it’s so true. There are so many things that the Lord gives to me that are different than what I expected.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Kristen: It’s better because the things that God gives us are ultimately better for us. But I’m hanging on to something that’s not as good in my own faulty human-
Jim: Right.
Kristen: … you know, way.
Jim: It takes a bit to put the mirror on you.
Kristen: Yeah.
Jim: But it is so healthy.
Kristen: Yeah.
Jim: ‘Cause then you could see the analogies, you know?
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: I’m sure our Heavenly Father is like, “What’d you do?”
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: “Why’d you do it?” And, you know-
Kristen: But He’s so patient with us.
Jim: Oh, yeah.
Kristen: And that’s where I wish you know, we could be like He is. And it’ll be a lifelong process to try to become like that, but He uses moments like that to plug in those little, “Oh, and by the way…” (laughs)
Jim: Mm. It is you.
Kristen: Yes.
John: And those are unwelcome moments, but again-
Jim: (laughs)
John: … you really do want to see the connection, don’t you?
Kristen: Absolutely.
John: Yeah. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And today, we’ve got Kristen Rusch, Ashley Durand, and Dr. Jenny Coffey with us. A mom panel talking about all the joys and challenges and moments.
And, uh, we want to encourage you to get a copy of the book that Ashley and Kristen have written. It’s published by Focus on the Family and called Mothering on Empty. Uh, look for that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Jenny, I want to direct this to you. Your husband, Blakely, is a firefighter.
Dr. Coffey: Yes.
Jim: That’s awesome. Tell him thank you.
Dr. Coffey: Yes.
Jim: I hope he never has to come to my house. (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Well, that’s… Yes, right. Yes.
Jim: But one of the, the reason I say all that is one of the difficulties is schedule.
Dr. Coffey: Sure.
Jim: So, his schedule… My brother-in-law, Jean’s brother, was a firefighter.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, you know, you’re on for certain hours. Then you’re off-
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Jim: … and then you have a week of a different set of hours.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s very erratic-
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … in that profession.
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Jim: How did you learn to manage that solo parenting, uh, concept? You know, the idea that, “I feel like I’m all alone.”
Dr. Coffey: I think I have it a little bit easier because this is all I’ve ever known. Like, I’ve been married 18 years this year, and he’s been a firefighter since he was 19. So, I have empathy for the people where it switches-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: … because that’s, that’s rough. But I, it was kind of thrown into it. So, it’s like, this is just the way it is.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: And so, a big part of it… And to your point, I do think a lot of young Gen X, millennial, Gen Z dads are… How do I say this? More involved in the day-to-day-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: … than maybe the older generations were.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: And so, having him help is a normal thing. But when he is gone, I think one of the hardest things for me is, to the point of what both of them are saying, is the pivoting when you have like, “Okay, I’m gonna work today.”
And now, all of mine are in school. So, it’s a little bit easier to kind of plan, “All right, I’m gonna do these things today, and then I’m gonna pick them up.” And then a kid gets sick, or there’s some wrench thrown in like, he, like yesterday, he didn’t get let out at eight like he was supposed to. He had an hour where he had to wait for his relief. And so, it’s like, all right, now he, if I was planning on him to be able to help-
Jim: Right.
Dr. Coffey: … he can’t help now.
Jim: Let me ask you specifically, because that’s where a lot of tension can crop up in the marriage.
Dr. Coffey: Yes.
Jim: You know, forget the parenting for a minute. So again, disappointment on expectations.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, you know, when, when it’s thoughtless, I get that.
Dr. Coffey: Sure.
Jim: There may be a need to obviously voice those concerns where, you know, he didn’t get home on time-
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … because he stopped to linger and talk to friends or, you know, something like that.
Dr. Coffey: Right. Yeah.
Jim: But when it’s that kind of thing, or it’s work related, “I couldn’t get out of the office” or whatever it might be. How, what’s a better mechanism for a stressed-out mom of young kids who thought, “This is when I could go take a bath.”
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, just as a thought. That would be a dream, wouldn’t it?
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Or just getting that break so that “Blakely would take the kids so I can get some things done around the house that I need to get done.”
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What’s an adult kind of attitude rather than to pounce on him?
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm. Well, that, that is the instinct.
Jim: It is. (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Yeah, I mean-
Kristen: (laughs)
Ashley: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: … there is-
Jim: Have you ever done that?
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs)
Kristen: (laughs)
Ashley: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: I mean, and I tell people that in couples therapy all the time. I’m like, it, your brain when it goes into fight or flight, or when you’re stressed like that, it’s scanning for threat. And so, what’s right in front of you is what-
Jim: The biggest threat in the moment. (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Right. And so, that’s what it’s going to see is like your spouse or your child. And so-
Jim: How do you de-escalate that though?
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How do you do that?
Dr. Coffey: I think the biggest part of it is, it’s so simple. I was telling a client this yesterday. I was like, “It’s so simple and yet so practically difficult to actually do.” But the biggest part of it is the pause.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: And so, what I tell people is to remind them because I hear often people talk about the somatic or the physical. They’re like, “But I was so triggered.” I’m like, “Right. Once you are, you have to just let your body go.” Like, once the body’s been flushed with chemicals, you have to just let it process the chemicals out-
Jim: Right.
Dr. Coffey: … because that is a natural thing the Lord put in us. But what you can do is create space between the physical reaction and the mental like spiraling rumination or reactivity.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: And so, I say like, “Let the physical body do what it needs to do, and at the same time, pause, step back and allow…” Like, take a brain break and say, “Let me just pause for a second before I pounce on any of this knowing that I might still be anxious.”
Jim: Yeah, and that’s a great first step.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Just slow down. Take a deep breath.
Dr. Coffey: It’s the only thing to do.
Jim: I actually have started doing that. It works. (laughs) Are you proud of me?
Dr. Coffey: I am.
Jim: Yeah. It is, I mean, it took many decades.
Dr. Coffey: Uh-huh.
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Yep.
Jim: But I’m better at it now. And I feel better. I’m more patient-
Dr. Coffey: Yes.
Jim: … you know, um, in the home, that kind of thing.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jim: Kristen, again, I’m not letting you out of this thing. (laughs)
Kristen: I don’t want to be out of it. (laughs)
Jim: But, uh, you have a verse in Acts 26, “Kicking against the goads.”
Kristen: Mm.
Jim: Now, I just want to say, a lot of people may not know what a goad is.
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: Tell us what a goad is, and what’s the scripture getting at when we’re kicking against the goads?
Kristen: Yes. I also had to look it up. (laughs)
Jim: Yeah, good.
Kristen: ‘Cause I didn’t know what a goad was. Uh, so picture some-
Jim: Is it a sticker?
Kristen: It’s not a sticker.
Jim: Oh, okay.
Kristen: It’s… So, picture oxen. And you are trying to guide this ox down a certain path. It’s a pokey stick. So-
Jim: I was close.
Kristen: Yes. Oh, okay. I thought you meant like a-
Jim: I meant like a stick.
Kristen: I know. Like a sticker.
Jim: You know, like a, like a lead. Sorry. I wasn’t very clear.
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: Something that sticks you. A sticker.
Kristen: Not sparkles, no. Okay.
Jim: Okay. So, you’re thinking pokey stick.
Kristen: Pokey stick.
Jim: Oh, so that’s a goad.
Kristen: Yes.
Jim: Okay.
Kristen: So, if the ox starts to veer out of the path, you poke it with the goad, and they’re supposed to go back onto the path. Some animals do not like being poked with the pokey stick, and so they will kick at the pokey stick. Kicking at the goads which is actually more painful because they are putting force-
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Kristen: … against the pokey stick, thus, hurting themselves.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: Um, rather than just going back where they are supposed to be going, the best path for them.
And so, I had this experience where I was honestly, like, I was angry with God. And I was having kind of a pouting session, and I was like, “God, I don’t like this. This is so uncomfortable. Why are you letting me go through this really challenging season? I don’t feel like I deserve this.” Like, “Are you really good?” You know, those kinds of questions that come to your mind during prolonged seasons of struggle and challenges. And, um, He just brought this verse to mind, and He’s like, “Why are you kicking against the goads?”
Jim: Mm.
Kristen: And so, I had to look it up. (laughs) “What, what are you talking about, Lord?” So, I looked it up. I was like, “Oh, I’m making this harder on myself because of the way I’m reacting to the situation. I’m making it more painful for myself. God is ultimately doing good for me. He’s ultimately doing good for our family, but I’m seeing it through the lens of this is hard. This is uncomfortable. I don’t like this. I don’t want to go in this direction.”
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Kristen: So, I’m fighting it. I’m pouting about it. I’m having a bad attitude, and God is saying, “If you’ll just shift your attitude, this will be so much more pleasant for you, so much more pleasant for your family.” And it was just kind of the “aha” moment for me.
Jim: Yeah. Boy, you know, much of life seems to point in that direction, right? “If you just adjust your attitude, daughter, son.” I mean, the Lord, He must have that speech with different people thousands of times (laughs) a day-
Kristen: (laughs)
Jim: … in different circumstances because this is just the human condition, right? The sinfulness of humanity. Ashley, I want to read a quote from the book because I thought this was good, Mothering on Empty. Um, in the book, you wrote, “I realized that if my identity was based solely on my role as a mother, then I would come up short every time. My kids would never be perfect, and neither would I.”
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s a good billboard.
Ashley: (laughs)
Jim: Guess what, everybody? You’re never going to be perfect, and your kids will never be perfect either. They might be great kids, but if they’re perfect, they’d be Jesus.
Ashley: Right.
Jim: So how, how did that minister to your heart to say… How, how do you embrace that and believe it?
Ashley: Yeah. Well, that’s the challenge that I’ve wrestled here.
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs) That’s the challenge.
Ashley: Yeah, yeah. Um, but I feel like when you put your identity in people, no matter how good they are and no matter how well-behaved they are or how kind they are to you, at some point, they will let you down. Um, and at some point, you’ll be feeling like you’re at rock bottom because you aren’t feeling loved basically. (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Ashley: Um, and so when I realized that and realized that I needed to have my identity in Christ first, that really changed everything. And nothing has helped me form my identity more than spending time reading the Bible. As simple as that sounds, and if you’re a Christian, you’ve heard that so many times, but it really is true that as a mom, you feel like you don’t have time-
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: … because you’re so tired, and you’re always caring for other people. Um, so you feel like you should put it off until later, but the more that you don’t feed your soul, the more empty that you are.
Jim: Well, that certainly is true, and that’s why we’ve been encouraging moms today. Your role is so important. Here at Focus on the Family, we want to equip you to be the best parent you can be.
I’m so thankful for our panel of moms, Ashley, Kristen and Jenny, and I’m looking forward to more of their insights next time. This is such good stuff. And John, I think you’re gonna agree, there’s a lot here for us dads as well.
John: I was taking notes, so absolutely.
Jim: (laughs)
John: And if you’re a mom or you know a mom who needs this kind of help, please share this program with them. You can get the download or look for the YouTube version, or, uh, certainly get our app and you can access, uh, this great content anytime you want.
We’re also gonna recommend Kristen and Ashley’s book, Mothering on Empty: How Moms Like You Found God’s Joy. Make a gift of any amount to the ministry today, and we’ll say thank you for your support by sending the book.
Jim: And your financial gifts help families in tremendous ways. A grandmother named Kay contacted us recently with this message. She said, “Our family has received so much encouragement while raising our own kids. And now, our grandchildren are being influenced in a positive way because of your ministry.” Well, that’s the kind of impact we can have together, working to strengthen and support families.
Please donate today, so we can continue to be a source of godly encouragement to families around the world.
John: We’d love to hear from you. Uh, just call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or donate and get a copy of Mothering on Empty at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
And we’ll also post information about our Age & Stage program. You sign up, uh, for this free service. Uh, you tell us the ages of your children, and each week, we’ll send helpful advice and relevant insights about parenting your child in that particular stage of development. Everything you get is going to be biblical, practical, and personal. And you can learn more about Age & Stage at our website.
And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back for more encouragements for mom next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Kristen Rusch: God is ultimately doing good for me. He’s ultimately doing good for our family, but I’m seeing it through the lens of this is hard. This is uncomfortable. I don’t like this. I don’t wanna go in this direction, so I am fighting it. I’m pouting about it. I’m having a bad attitude.
God is saying, “If you’ll just shift your attitude, this will be so much more pleasant for you, so much more pleasant for your family.” And it was just kind of a “aha” moment for me.
Jim Daly: Yeah.
John Fuller: That’s Kristen Rusch describing a very common challenge that many moms face, especially in those early years of parenting. Now, maybe you’re experiencing something like that right now or you know a mom who’s struggling. If so, stick with us for today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We have a lot of encouragement from women who’ve been there and done that. And I’m John Fuller, and we’re glad you’ve joined us.
Jim: John, we had a great conversation last time with our panel of moms, Kristen Rusch, Ashley Durand, and our colleague, Dr. Jenny Coffey, who’s a member of our counseling team. We covered a lot of ground: the chaos of motherhood, child meltdowns, the illusion of control, and how perfect families, perfect kids, and perfect moms are all impossible. It was really good stuff and if you missed last time, get the download or watch it on YouTube or get the Focus on the Family app so you can review the great content anytime you like.
John: And the basis for the conversation last time and today is a wonderful book written by Kristen and Ashley called Mothering on Empty: How Moms Like You Found God’s Joy. And with that, here’s how we began part two of our conversation on today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: You know, one of the statistics that shocked me was the amount of depression in, uh, moms of newborns and infants. It’s like anywhere from 50 to 80%.
Dr. Jenny Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That is shocking to me. I didn’t realize it was that steep. Jenny, what’s happening?
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm. I think it’s probably lack of community. I mean, I was even talking to my husband last night about just how different stages and it really doesn’t… I don’t know if it gets easier through parenting. I do, I will say, like, I have more acquaintances through, like, my kids’ sports.
Jim: Right.
Dr. Coffey: Like, oh, I see these parents all the time. They’re familiar. They’re comfortable. But, like, deep friendships are just really hard no matter what stage you’re in.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: And so, the number is surprising, but it, I think for a lot of people, they just kind of chug along and assume that that’s normal.
Jim: Yeah. Ashley, I would think, especially for the new mom, the, you know, your firstborn, that is a big transition socially. Because you’ve got you know, you’re doing probably a lot of outings with other couples that don’t have kids. It’s your network, and then you have a child. And it socially, it’s very different. It could be isolating.
Ashley Durand: Yeah, absolutely.
Jim: ‘Cause your friends just keep doing what they’re gonna do and, you know, you really don’t fit in with an infant.
Ashley: Absolutely. And like I said, for me, our son was colicky.
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: And so, we felt like we couldn’t go out anywhere because he was crying all the time. And it was just like we were taking turns outside the restaurant holding the crying baby-
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: … while the other one was in with the other people. And so, yeah, it definitely was kind of an adjustment and a bit isolating at first, um, until we realized that it, it’s okay for your baby to cry in public. And a lot of other parents understand and, um, that your real friends will be there with, for you-
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: … no matter if they’re going through a different stage of life or not.
Jim: It sounds like the big, the big issue there is just relax.
Ashley: Yes. (laughs)
Jim: This is a phase.
Ashley: Yeah. You don’t have to worry so much.
Jim: Don’t get emotionally worked up that it’ll never be better.
Ashley: Right. It does get better. (laughs)
Jim: Yeah. And yeah, it’s, again, those social structures need to reconnect, and you’ll find other new moms, uh, especially again, hopefully through church.
Ashley: Yes. I think joining a mom’s group-
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: … was a game changer for me.
Kristen: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: To hear other moms say, “Oh yeah, my baby does the same thing or I haven’t sle- I didn’t sleep for a certain period of time.” And to see that they survived that, and that they were thriving, um-
Jim: Yeah, MOPS.
Ashley: Yes.
Jim: Moms of Preschoolers is a great organization.
Ashley: That was, it was great for me.
Jim: Kristen, did you find that, that difficult, that isolation?
Kristen: I did. And I, I don’t know what gave me this expectation, but I thought I could just carry on with normal life after having a newborn.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: And so (laughs)-
Jim: Leave them in the baby chair.
Kristen: Yeah.
Jim: “I’m going out for dinner.”
Kristen: Exactly. Just strap them on and keep going.
Jim: (laughs).
Kristen: And nothing would change, and everything would be the same. And again, I had to shift my expectations when that didn’t happen.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: It’s like, okay, is it something wrong with me? Am I doing this wrong, or is this just how motherhood is? And so, I think I had a very romanticized view of motherhood, and it’s going to be all sunshine and rainbows. And I’m going to cuddle with my baby all the time, and they’re going to wake up smiling and (laughs), you know, so when-
Jim: Right.
Kristen: … it doesn’t go like that-
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: … it’s, it’s kind of a shock. And so, I think going back to your question about depression, I think there could be several things going on. Either the romanticized view that’s realized to not be accurate can be really hard to come to terms with, and also just really feeling like you’re failing a lot of the time-
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: … gets demoralizing.
John: Mm-hmm.
Kristen: Like, “Man, can I ever get this right?” (laughs).
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: And moms are just faced with that day after day after day. And they don’t have those networks to be able to voice it to other people or to connect with other moms and be like, “Oh yeah, I also feel that way.” And so, you’re just down on yourself constantly and that builds over time I think.
Jim: Ashley, let me ask you, uh, describe why rest for moms is so important and how c- I mean, really, how can moms prioritize rest? “Do you know my schedule?”
Ashley: (laughs) Right. Yeah.
Jim: Just to voice it.
Ashley: It does feel like you can’t rest. It feels like you need to take care of everyone else around you.
Jim: There’s always more to-dos than done.
Ashley: Yes.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Ashley: Yes. And when you have a baby that just needs to be fed every two hours or, um, wants to only sleep when you’re holding them, it can just feel like you can’t, you can’t take a break. But when you don’t take a break and when you don’t sleep, your mental health goes downhill quick. And you’re not able to effectively love your family as well as you can otherwise.
I remember a season where I hadn’t been sleeping because my baby was awake all night. And I read the verse that says, “Come to me you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: Um-
Jim: And every mom said, “Amen.”
Ashley: Yes.
Kristen: I’m weary. (laughs)
Ashley: And I realized that not only was I physically tired, I was spiritually and emotionally tired. I hadn’t been taking a rest for my soul, um, and spending time with the Lord, and, um, that it was okay to ask somebody for help, to say, “I really need a rest, and I need you to come sit with my baby for an hour or two hours.”
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: And it’s okay to go get your hair done, get your nails done.
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: Spend the time reading the Bible, or take a nap, or whatever you need.
Jim: You know what’s interesting with that, I, you know, it strikes me again. Jean and I did foster care. And in foster care, you do training, and then they encourage respite families.
Ashley: Mm-hmm. Right.
Jim: Respite, you know, I had to say, “Okay, what’s a respite family?” For those that don’t realize this, these are families that will come around a foster parent and help them by doing a chore, taking the kids for a weekend so the foster family can have a break. And I kept thinking, “Man, every family needs respite families, right?”
Ashley: Yeah. (laughs)
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Back to your point, new, especially new moms. And that’s where that friendship group, again if, or family-
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … if you guys can structure it that way to even work it out where grandparents can take the little ones for a weekend to give you and your husband a 24-hour break, a 48-hour break if that’s doable. That’s a good thing to do.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: A little space, a little connection time, a little rest for you. Ashley, let me ask you, you had a difficult first pregnancy.
Ashley: I did, yes.
Jim: And in that context, describe what you went through, and then help us understand kind of how that led into a faith struggle for you.
Ashley: Sure.
Jim: What was the difficulty?
Ashley: Well, I had a, um, I don’t know if you’re familiar with, uh, hyperemesis gravidarum. It’s where you’re throwing up all the time. I, like, for the-
Jim: Through the whole nine months?
Ashley: Through the whole nine months.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So, it’s like the first trimester-
Ashley: Yes.
Jim: … all the way through?
Ashley: Most people are better through after the first trimester, but I was throwing up nine times a day or more for nine months. Um, I had to get fluids at the ER, and it was, it was rough. I mean, driving in the car, I had to pull over and-
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Ashley: … throw up in random yards and (laughs)-
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s you?
Ashley: Yeah.
John: Oh (laughs).
Jim: No, okay. No.
Ashley: That’s why I moved away.
Jim: That’s terrible. I’m sorry.
(laughter)
Jim: I mean, that’s a hard way to experience a pregnancy.
Ashley: It was. It was-
Jim: It’s unusual.
Ashley: It was. It was very hard. I was just so sick. Um, and then when I had, I felt like, you know, as soon as I have the baby it’ll be better. Um, but then I had a really traumatic birth. There was an unplanned C-section and the pain medication, the epidural didn’t work. (laughs) And so, I felt the C-section operation.
Jim: Ooh.
Ashley: Um, I passed out. I had, then I had allergic reaction to the medications afterwards and-
Jim: So, you were ready to roll-
Ashley: Yes (laughs).
Jim: … as a new mom?
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Ashley: It was really, really hard. Um, and yeah, then, um, when we left the hospital, my baby had colic, and he cried all the time.
Jim: Oh.
Dr. Coffey: Oh, gosh.
Ashley: He was awake all night for-
Jim: This poor guy.
Ashley: … every, every night for the first probably year of life. Um, and I really wrestled with, with God on why? Why do some people have, like, the easiest pregnancies, and they have home births with no medication-
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: … and their babies are happy and smiling, and then this was my story. And I just kept saying, “Why God? Why? I don’t see any lesson that You’re supposed to be teaching me here.” Because, you know, you always look for the lesson. But, um, I felt like God was telling me, “You don’t need to know why. You just need to be faithful to me and trust me.”
And the fact that it was such a hard pregnancy and birth has made mothering my son so powerful, and it makes it worth so much because it cost me so much-
Jim: Wow.
Ashley: … to get there.
Jim: Yeah.
Ashley: Um, and so if anything, I can be thankful for that and that God has allowed, He preserved my life-
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Ashley: … um, through that birth and allowed me the opportunity to be a mother-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Ashley: … um, and just to be grateful for, for that. And, um, sometime- I realized that sometimes God just gives us harder assignments than He gives other people. And we can’t compare to the people who seem to have it better. Um, all we can do is just say, “Yes, Lord.”
Jim: (laughs).
Ashley: “I’m willing, and I will trust You even though I may not understand it.”
Jim: Sounds like Paul.
Ashley: Yeah (laughs).
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Jim: Be content in all things.
John: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: Right.
John: Yeah. I remember Dena, my wife, sometimes looking at me saying, “It shouldn’t be this hard.”
Ashley: (laughs).
John: “I’ve wanted to be a mom all these years. It shouldn’t be this hard.”
Jim: Now, you had to have the golden answer as the husband.
John: (laughs) The golden answer is to not answer the question.
Jim: Yeah, that’s exactly right.
John: Obviously, some fun today with our panel of moms on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and, uh, I’m trusting that you’re finding some fun in your motherhood journey as we have this conversation.
Uh, that’s why we’re here, and that’s why we recommend you get a copy of the book written by our guests, Ashley and Kristen, called Mothering on Empty: How Moms Like You Found God’s Joy. Look for it at our website, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Kristen, I want to ask you this, because you were a business owner before being a mom.
Kristen: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And you had to make that decision. Uh, Jean was in biochemistry and teaching labs at a university when we got pregnant with Trent. So, for so many young women today that becomes such a struggle because they don’t know the value of each. And man, do we as a culture put value on working outside the home.
Kristen: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Kind of neglecting the beauty, everything you said at the beginning, John, just how amazing motherhood is and the contribution it makes to the culture. I mean, you’re thinking it’s just your family, but think if we had healthier children growing up-
Kristen: Right.
Jim: … what that next generation would look like. Capable young people, uh, that aren’t depressed, that don’t have anxiety-
Kristen: Right.
Jim: … because more parents were willing to be in the home at the time of being little. But describe that battle that you had and your decision to stay at home.
Kristen: Yeah, it was a battle.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: I wrestled a lot because I had all these different voices, you know. I had my own desires of wanting to apply my passions and my giftings and the things I had learned in school. I love working for myself, you know, being self-employed and being able to have the gratification of growing a business and seeing the fruit of your labor, like it’s really, um, rewarding. And so, to set that aside is really difficult. Um, but then you have this life (laughs)-
Jim: Right.
Kristen: … this eternal being that you’re pouring into too. And you want to soak up every moment, and you want to be present. And then you have social voices too. Like, I just kind of felt the pressure to be mom plus. Like, you need to be a mom, but you also need to be furthering your education. Or you need to be a mom, and you need to be working. Or you need to be a mom, and you need to be doing all these extracurricular activities.
Like, I just kind of felt that exterior pressure on top of my own internal pressure. So, it’s a lot to kind of process through and figure out. “Okay, what are the priorities? What is God asking of me in this season?” And I, it was, yeah, I didn’t want to listen (laughs)-
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: … to the Lord, to be honest. Um, I did, and I didn’t. I wanted to be obedient, but I also wanted what I wanted and so I tried to juggle both. I wanted to sort of obey God but also keep some of what I wanted.
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Kristen: And God was like, “Okay, we can play this game. You can…” I mean-
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: … God is so patient. Again, He’s so patient. He lets us fumble things. He lets us make bad decisions. He lets us learn from our bad decisions. And He graciously picks us back up and goes, “Okay, let’s do this a different way.”
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: So, it got to the point where I couldn’t put off closing down my business anymore.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: And so, the Lord just brought me to that breaking point. And He’s like, “Okay, I’m going to close it down for you.” And so, He did and it was, it was very hard, but it was also one of the best things for my motherhood because I could finally close that chapter and have the head space and the energy and the presence-
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: … to be there with my kids and to invest in them.
Jim: Which is beautiful. And I understand there’s going to be some moms that are, you know, in a place they have to work.
Kristen: Yeah.
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Or at least, you know, the budget, they feel the constraints, and so I’ll have to do this. And I would suggest, you know, it’s good to look at doing that for a season, but the, again, those early years, the more frequently that you can spend time in home with those kids when they’re little, the better they will be, the healthier they will be. Not to put a guilt trip on anybody, but I think that’s generally the rule of thumb. It’s better for you to sacrifice in that moment, um-
Kristen: Absolutely.
Jim: … and then you’ll reap the rewards.
Kristen, I want to follow up with you. You also had postpartum experiences. And I, I just, for the women that have gone through that, that’s, it’s not unique, but it, it’s cloudy.
Kristen: Yeah.
Jim: Describe it.
Kristen: No. So, I definitely grew up with the idea that Christians don’t, like real Christians don’t deal with depression.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: Um, I think that was just kind of prevalent in the time that I grew up in.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: And so, I just, you know, being a believer in Christ and having what I considered to be a strong faith in Jesus, I was like, “Okay, well then I’ll never deal with depression.”
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Kristen: “We can check that off the list.” And so, I remember you know, as part of the prep for my birth, I had to go to classes that talked about postpartum depression. And I would just kind of tune out and think about other things and, um, but in reality, I was really struggling and-
Jim: What did it look like for you? Give me the adjectives that describe that.
Kristen: Yeah. I felt alone. I felt, um, disinterested in the things that used to bring me joy and happiness. I felt totally overwhelmed. Um, my sleep was all over the place. I was exhausted during the day, and I couldn’t sleep at night. Um, I was struggling with anxiety. I just, I felt a lot of emptiness.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: So, I think those are, uh, some major things-
Jim: And the key is, what do you do to cope with those things when you’re feeling, or despondent toward the baby?
Kristen: Yeah.
Jim: Like, you know, “I don’t, I don’t want to be doing this.”
Kristen: And it was really hard for me to connect with a newborn. Like especially when they don’t smile at you in those early weeks where it’s just kind of like a burrito that you have to change their diaper, like-
Ashley: (laughs).
Kristen: … and they don’t really connect with you. It’s like, “This is, oh, this is hard.” (laughs).
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: And so, you know, because you long to connect with your child, and so in those early weeks where they’re still, you know, developing and they don’t connect fully, it just feels very lonely.
Jim: Did you translate that into, “What’s wrong with me? As a mom-”
Kristen: I definitely felt-
Jim: … “I’m not feeling this connection. Something’s wrong with me.”
Kristen: Yeah. There was a lot of shame that went with that.
Jim: How did that, how did that transpire then? How did you, the number of weeks or months, how, what did it take before you felt, “Okay, I’ve arrived?”
Kristen: Well, so in my case, it lingered for about nine months.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: Um, and we had just moved to a different state. And we were getting caught up on, you know, some of the kids’ doctor visits and things. So, we finally got plugged into a pediatrician. And she’s like, “Okay, well, I’m going to send you some questionnaires that you should have taken earlier, but we’ll just do them now.” And so, I remember sitting in this new pediatrician’s office, and I thought my questionnaires were done. Like, it was mostly the, “Are they crawling? Are they rolling over? Are they doing X, Y, and Z?” And so, I turned the page, and it was questions about me. I was like, “Oh, okay.” And for whatever reason I decided to read the questions this time.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Kristen: And as I went through the list, I realized, “Oh wow, I’m depressed.” And it was just kind of this, it was a sinking feeling and a relief at the same time-
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Kristen: … to have an answer for why I was feeling all of these things.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: And so, then I had to come to terms with, well, I guess Christians can be depressed.
Jim: Yeah. Jenny, let me come back to you because you’ve seen this, I’m sure in your practice.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But the, the idea of first those adjectives that help describe a woman, and you may not know. I mean, to your point Kristen, “Am I postpartum? I, I don’t know.”
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What would that look like, and what is the help that she needs in that moment?
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What should she do?
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Uh, a new mom. Let’s just assume there are new moms listening, and they’re where Kristen was.
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Jim: “I’m not feeling this connection or this bond.”
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “What’s wrong with me?”
Dr. Coffey: So, first of all, I think it’s helpful to differentiate baby blues and postpartum depression. So, postpartum depression is like an actual diagnosis, and there’s criteria for that. Baby blues, uh, most people go through that. And when you think about it, you know, transparently, it’s like what your body just went through, your hormones getting back into swaying, all of those things. It makes total sense. There’s nothing wrong with you to feel a little off. It’s like, well, yeah, if you had this like massive, arguably the biggest thing you’ll ever do, of course you’re going to feel a little off.
Postpartum depression, I tell people, if you’re starting to really feel very disconnected from your baby, uh, listless, non-motivated in a, in a way where I’m talking non-motivated, like I haven’t showered in a week, those types of things.
Those are the things I really encourage people to tell your husband, maybe tell your mom or sisters or other trusted women in your circle, and get some perspective on, and, and be honest in that perspective. If you’re going to reach out, be honest.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: And then really truly, you know, this can be a little taboo, but more often than not, if it’s true postpartum depression, it needs medication.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: Um, that-
Jim: And that’s okay.
Dr. Coffey: … temporary medication to reset hormones.
Jim: Yeah. Right. And is that typical, a nine-month kind of run? Is it all over the map or within a year or so that should be taken care of, and you should be in a better place?
Dr. Coffey: Well, I think Kristen would probably affirm that the quicker you address it, the faster it will go-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: … probably.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: And so, if you, it’s not gonna just typically go on its own. So, that’s something to tell people. And I actually like to remind people there’s a statistic that actually says, if you dealt with any type of postpartum, so postpartum depression, anxiety, or OCD, because there’s three, there’s not just postpartum depression. If you deal with any of those in the first two years, it can show up for seven years afterwards.
Jim: Mm.
Dr. Coffey: So, it’s not just this like short period of when they’re a year, that feels like 10, right? It actually can pop back up. And more often than not, I do tell people to be aware if you have previous mental health diagnoses-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Coffey: … like depression, bipolar, major depression disorder, then it is more likely that you will struggle with postpartum. So, just being aware of that-
Jim: Right.
Dr. Coffey: … the transparency of that can help people.
Jim: And you know, one of the great things, if you are not sure, call us here at Focus on the Family.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You can talk to, uh, someone like Jenny who is in the counseling department. We can arrange that call, and you can just talk to them about what you’re experiencing as a new mom and, “Is this something that’s normal, or should I get some help?” They can provide some guidance in that way. And John will give those details in a minute.
Jenny, this idea of grace for oneself it’s probably one of the more difficult topics, right? It-
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … it doesn’t feel good to have grace for myself. I should be performing so I feel better about myself, but the whole prospect of grace, the whole attitude of that is it’s grace.
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Jim: It’s not something you have to earn. It’s not something you have to work toward. This is God’s gift to us, His grace toward us.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How, why do we struggle so much extending that to ourselves?
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm. I think part of it has to do with the fact that we’re afraid that if we drop the bar just a little bit, then everything else will fall.
Jim: Mm.
Dr. Coffey: And that was something that I’ve kind of had to reevaluate the last few years for myself was if you’re juggling a ton of balls and every single ball is glass-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: … then you can’t let any of them drop.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: And the imagery I have for myself is, I bet some of these are dryer balls.
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: (laughs) Right.
Dr. Coffey: Like, I bet some of them have gotta be dryer balls.
Jim: Bouncy.
Dr. Coffey: And it’s like, that’s fine, you know?
Jim: (laughs).
Dr. Coffey: And so, you pick the things that are like these are more glass. These are more fragile. I care more about these things or they’re more priority to me. And then the other things where it’s like, maybe the dishes don’t get done today or whatever it is.
Like, yesterday afternoon, I’d had all day of seeing clients in meetings. And I got home, and I knew I had another appointment that evening. And so, I conked out on the couch for like 30 minutes, and there was part of it for me where I usually, I’m not falling asleep. I’m resting.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: But what that’s really modeled, what I have found, and not that my kids are perfect, they give me so much grace back-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Coffey: … when I’ve gotten better at giving it to myself. And so, modeling that to them, especially with them being older. Like, I’ll wake up and be like, “I’m sorry I laid down, guys.” And they’re like, “Mom, it’s okay that you rested. Like, it’s okay.” Like, they give-
Jim: That’s great.
Dr. Coffey: … that grace.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Coffey: And so, I found that the more I model that because I want them to do that for themselves when they’re older, the more that I try to model that, the more they give it back to me which is like a gift that I probably tangibly couldn’t have known how great that is. And then hopefully the more that they feel the permission to give it to themselves. Because if it was modeled to you, if you have parents that are just doers all the time, then you’re going to have children that feel like “I’m not allowed to mess up.”
Kristen: Mm.
Dr. Coffey: “I’m not allowed to rest. I have to be productive. I have to be doing.” And really what I try to help people to realize is like, rest is productive. It’s not something to put on your list-
Jim: Yeah.
Kristen: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Coffey: … but it is a productive thing to do.
Jim: Well, but for that mom of young children, you might-
Dr. Coffey: Yeah.
Jim: … need to put it on the list.
Dr. Coffey: Right. Yeah.
Jim: Rest from 2:00 to 2:20.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm.
Kristen: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Kristen: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, that’s not a bad idea.
Dr. Coffey: Mm-hmm. But it’s not something to achieve, I guess is my point.
Jim: Right. Okay.
Dr. Coffey: Yes. It’s not something to say like, “Oh, I did so good at rest today.”
Kristen: (laughs).
Dr. Coffey: You know?
Jim: Or more stress.
Dr. Coffey: Right.
Jim: You’re laying there going, “I gotta rest. I gotta rest.”
Dr. Coffey: Right, right.
Kristen: (laughs).
Jim: “It’s on my checklist.”
Dr. Coffey: Right. And then, yeah, and then your brain’s just gonna keep you awake.
Jim: Right.
Dr. Coffey: Yeah, right.
Jim: Well, that is great and such a delightful conversation with our panel of moms, Ashley Durand, Kristen Rusch, and Dr. Jenny Coffey. I think many families and especially moms have been encouraged by what we’ve shared these past two days.
To follow up, get a copy of the book that Kristen and Ashley have written, published by Focus on the Family and Tyndale House. It’s called Mothering on Empty: How Moms Like You Found God’s Joy. I mean, who doesn’t want that? Joy in motherhood. This resource will help you. It’s full of stories and compassion and godly truth, and I know you and your children will benefit from it.
John: Make a donation of any amount to Focus on the Family today, and we’ll send this book to you. It’s our way of saying thank you for stepping up and being a part of the support team and helping us minister to families literally around the world. Call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or donate and get that book, Mothering on Empty at our website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: And John, I’m reminded of a comment we received years ago from a mom named Kristen who had three kids ages six and under. She described living in the moment, just trying to get through minute by minute instead of being able to enjoy her children. But then Kristen found our resources which helped her reconnect with her kids and experience special memories with them.
And I just want to say thanks to the generosity of our friends who support the ministry. We can have this kind of impact every day with moms, dads, and their children. That’s why I encourage you to do ministry through your giving to Focus on the Family. Donate today, and together, let’s rescue and encourage more moms like Kristen.
John: And again, our number 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or donate at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
And coming up tomorrow, some powerful advice about building community in your own backyard.
Jeff Dillon: And so, it starts with prayer, and, and one of the challenges in that is simply the question of, do you know your neighbor’s names to be able to pray for them?
John: And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
