Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

DAY ONE

Preview:

Ken Wilgus: Well, a really important thing that I learned early on, and I want to make sure parents know, is that, we live in an unusual culture that does not have a standardized means of transitioning our children into adulthood. Because of that, you don’t have to give teenagers everything they want, but they do need to know, “Am I on a track here where you will be out of my life and it will be up to me?”

End of Preview

John Fuller: That’s Dr. Ken Wilgus. He joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, along with his podcast co-host, Jessica Pfeiffer. And I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John the teenage years can be so stressful and chaotic for both the teen and the parent.

John: Indeed.

Jim: And certainly Jean and I experienced that, uh, more with one of our boys than the other. (laughs). But, uh, man, it’s, uh, a time to hang in there. Everybody’s under such stress, you know, school, curfew rules. I remember with Trent, I said to Trent, “You, your curfew…” This is like, he’s a junior. “It’s midnight because nothing good happens after midnight.” (laughs). And he says to me, of course, he’s finishing med- uh, pre-med now, and he said, “Uh, do you have empirical data that supports that?”

John: (laughing).

Jim: I was like, “No. My own experience would tell me that it’s not good to be out… And so, it’s that kind of, you know, argumentative situation.

John: Yes.

Jim: And we want to help you today as a parent of preteens and teens to kind of, soak in the moment and find better tools to do the job you need to do.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I’m looking forward to today’s program with our two guests. Uh, we learned, Jean and I learned so much from Dr. Ken Wilgus and we applied those things, especially with Trent. And, uh, I would say they worked marvelously. So you have an endorsement from Jean and I, working with, uh, Dr. Ken Wilgus’ material.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. This is really good stuff. And Ken is a psychologist, author and speaker who specializes in adolescent behavior. And he maintains a private practice in Dallas, Texas. Uh, the basis for our conversation today is his excellent book, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You.

Jim: Great title.

John: It is.

Jim: (laughs).

John: Uh, the subtitle is, Parenting Teenagers Into Adulthood, which is the goal of course. Uh, we’ve got that book here at Focus on the Family. The details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And, uh, Dr. Wilgus also has a podcast by that name, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You. And, uh, his podcast Co-host Jessica Pfeiffer, joins us, as I said earlier. She’s a mom of four and she’s got adults and teens. She’s living it. She’s right in the middle of all this stuff.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Living the dream.

John: She is indeed.

Jim: Well, to Ken and Jessica, welcome back to Focus. Good to have you again.

Dr. WIlgus: Thanks.

Jessica Pfeiffer: Thank you.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: Thanks.

Jim: Uh, let’s just start there. Where’d you come up with the title, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You?

Dr. WIlgus: Okay. So that-

Jim: It’s so succinct for teenagers. (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: That’s a quote from an author that I’ve not read much of, Peter De Vries, who wrote a book and that included-

Jim: That little segment.

Dr. WIlgus: … the phrase, “Sometimes parenting is nothing more than feeding the mouth that bites you.”

John: Yeah.

Jim: Wow. And it’s-

Dr. WIlgus: And it’s this phrase that all parents of teens just light up with, “That’s it. That’s how I feel.”

Jim: It’s so funny, ’cause every time I’ve mentioned the title of that book to people… ‘Cause Jean and I, we tell everybody. Jean’s your rate salesperson-

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jim: … let me tell you. But we’ve mentioned it and they’ll laugh and say, “How did he come up with that?” So anyway, that’s perfect.

Dr. WIlgus: Steal your best stuff. That’s what we do.

John: (laughing).

Jim: Oh, yeah. Um, let me ask you, Dr. Ken, as a psychologist, you work with teens and their parents every day. You bring those stories. We covered some of that a long time ago. And I wanna get back to that content because again, this is so good. I believe in it, it worked for us, and I know it’s gonna work for many, many other parents. But what’s the main struggle you hear from, uh, parents about their relationships with their teens?

Dr. WIlgus: The main struggle that kind of underlies lots of struggles is a control battle.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: And, and, and if you don’t really know that, you’ll think you’re talking about, whether this is the right outfit to wear, whether those are the right friends to hang with. But underneath that, almost all the time is the, uh, hidden question, um, who are you to decide this? When will it be up to me to decide this? Why are you still telling me, uh, how to handle this?

Jim: Generally, what, what, paint that picture, because, again, parenting, I think parents need some slack. Because, you know, you start with feeding and wiping the bottom and they’re totally dependent upon you. Moms identify with that, right?

Dr. WIlgus: Right.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then, you know, three to five, they’re developing a bit, but they’re still dependent upon you to do so much. And then elementary school and then, then of course, pre-teen and 11, 12, and then 13. There does become this battle, uh, typically, and the thing about that and what you’re so good at, uh, reminding parents of is, this is actually a good thing. (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah, it exactly is.

Jim: It is not bad.

Dr. WIlgus: It’s exactly right.

Jim: But why do we freak out as parents that somehow we’re, we’re now losing control and controlling a 15-year-old, that’s not gonna work very well?

Dr. WIlgus: Well, a really important thing that I learned early on, and I want to make sure parents know, is that, we live in an unusual culture that does not have a standardized means of transitioning our children into adulthood. Because of that, you don’t have to give teenagers everything they want, but they do need to know, “Am I on a track here where you will be out of my life and it will be up to me?” And it’s just an unusual time for the last, I don’t know, 120 years, uh, that we’ve not answered that question clearly.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: And that creates a kinda panic in teenagers that’s more than is needed, uh, because they feel like… Uh, I’ve got a lot of teenagers that tell me their parents are controlling everything, when in fact they’re not actually controlling everything. But the teenager doesn’t have a sense of, “Are you going to be leaving at some point?”

Jim: (laughs). Right.

Dr. WIlgus: So you wanna clarify that move, you know?

Jim: Let me ask you this. The, uh, and I, you would see this, ’cause I’m sure your clientele is both faith-oriented and not faith-oriented.

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jim: Do we as Christians have a more, uh, are we more inclined toward control, because of our belief system-

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jim: … and our desire for the right outcomes and-

Dr. WIlgus: Ironically, yeah.

Jim: Well, I don’t think it’s ironic, actually.

Dr. WIlgus: Well-

Jim: I think it fits our faith in God and trying to do the best we can do. And if things are wobbly, we want to correct that, whether they’re 13, 16, 25, maybe.

Dr. WIlgus: But here’s where it’s ironic is that, parents think that we’re old-fashioned. We’re the ones that really want to do God’s will, and we hang on till they pry control out of our cold dead hands. That’s not old-fashioned. That’s very new.

Jim: Hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: Uh, because in, you know, 150 years ago, there wasn’t… You know, the word teenager was invented in 1942. Uh, there was no such thing as this 13 to 18-year-old. They were young adults out working, girls were pregnant and, you know, married and pregnant by 13, 14, 15. That was not unusual.

Jim: Huh.

Dr. WIlgus: So this idea of, well, we’re the conservative ones that hang on till forever, because that’s God’s will, that’s not, uh, uh, to me that’s what’s ironic. Is that, the, you know, from, uh, the Jewish, uh, culture, uh, at 13, there has always been, uh, a transition point. This is actually new parenting that says, God wants me to hold on and make everything just fine, no matter what the age of my kid.

Jessica: (laughs). Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: No one thought that before.

Jim: And I think generally you would say as a psychologist seeing these clients, it’s not healthy.

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah, no. It makes it, it-

Jim: More difficult.

Dr. WIlgus: Ironically, there are two outcomes. One that’s bad is the rebellious teenager. But in the last 10 years I’ve seen a new kind of that’s not good, is the not rebellious teenager. The one that-

Jim: Hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: … and, and again, it’s not all about rebellion, but the one that is being treated very disrespectfully, still patronized, but they don’t even push back. And that is virtually always, because of an anxiety disorder, something that’s-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: … keeping them from that natural desire to, “Hey, I think it’s time for me to handle stuff.” And that’s actually a little worse.

Jim: Yeah. That’s-

Dr. WIlgus: So, uh, both of those are not good outcomes.

Jim: … difficult. Uh, the core content, I think is that, planned emancipation-

Dr. WIlgus: Right.

Jim: … idea. Define what that means, planned emancipation. Jessica, I’m gonna come to you in a second, (laughs), here with some examples.

Dr. WIlgus: Who has done it? Jessica did very well with it. It, so it’s, you know, a lot of parents know about, if my child, my 8-year-old, can handle something on their own, we encourage ’em, “You go do that yourself and good job.” Well, this is not that. What I talk about is that, you correct this cultural problem by, in your home and in your church. There are number of churches that are really steadfast on, at 13 here, you’re not an old child, you’re a young adult. And more and more you will see freedoms, not privilege. Privilege says, “Let you try it. You’re doing your homework yourself but, if it doesn’t go well, we’re gonna take it back.” The freedom is the recognition that, all of our hassling and trying to control, make you keep the room clean, all these different things, is working against itself.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: And we’re gonna recognize that at your age, in a steady… And it’s planned because it’s in steady doses, not all at once, but we are going to be moving out of your life. And you really want to be making a statement about it and be happy about it. A lot of parents are doing this, a lot of really good passionate moms do it, but they, they struggle with that, “I hate this, that, that Dr. Guy said we need to do this.” But-

Jim: (laughing).

Dr. WIlgus: … but, you know, it, it, like you said, it’s a good thing, and you really wanna announce pretty much that at 13, there will be a few things that we no longer demand that you answer to us about. And then we will be done and for all of our listeners virtually, by the end of high school. Um, it doesn’t mean we don’t have influence, ironically, it means you’ll have a lot more influence, but, we will be out of the forced control business in your life in just a few years.

Jim: And what’s i- ironic about is most parents would say, “Ugh, that’s the way,” but they just don’t know the path to get there, right?

Dr. WIlgus: That’s, that’s right.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Jessica, you’re the mom of the 20 something young adults and the younger teens.

Jessica: Yes.

Jim: Uh, you applied this. How did you apply that emancipation principle and did it work in your family?

Jessica: Yes. Well, I think, you know, there’s a process that you go through where you take simple things like keeping your room clean for a younger teenager. And you say, “Okay, you know what? I’m no longer requiring that you keep your room clean.” Now I have to say, Dr. Ken, this is one thing that we have joked about that I-

Dr. WIlgus: I always get pushback online.

Jessica: … I have a ha- a really hard time-

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah. (laughs).

Jessica: … agreeing with this one. But, you know what? I’ll use an example I can agree with, and that’s music. So, uh-

Jim: Well, we want the one you don’t agree with too.

Jessica: (laughing).

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jim: Come on. Let’s check ’em all out here.

Jessica: I, I like a tidy house. It’s really hard for me to let go of the room.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jim: But, well, well, it sounds like a control issue.

Jessica: (laughs). It is.

Dr. WIlgus: And, and her kids are great. So.

Jessica: Um-

Jim: But, but go ahead, just cover the cleaning room. ‘Cause that’s a lot of parents-

Jessica: Okay.

Jim: … are stuck there. And then we’ll get to the thing that worked well for you.

John: ‘Cause it’s a sign of godliness after all.

Jim: (laughing).

Jessica: It is. I really feel like it is.

Jim: What scripture reference is that?

Dr. WIlgus: My favorite verse.

Jessica: So Dr. Ken suggests that, uh, when you have a young teenager, you say, “Hey, you know what? You get to keep your room the way that you like it, because you’re not gonna die from a dirty room.” That’s, that’s an easy thing to give up, right? You might die from dirty room. (laughs).

Jim: There are some caveats, if I remember correctly.

Dr. WIlgus: There are some.

Jessica: There are some caveats.

Jim: Smells, dead stuff.

Jessica: Exactly.

Dr. WIlgus: You can’t have food-

Jessica: You can’t have food.

Dr. WIlgus: … do your own laundry.

Jessica: Yes. If there’s a, if there’s a problem with pests in your room, you’re gonna pay for the exterminator, that sort of thing. So, uh, if you give up that control and say, “It’s your job now to take care of your room. I’m also not going to be doing your laundry anymore. ‘Cause you wouldn’t want your mother coming into your room and digging around to find your dirty laundry or sorting through your things anymore. But it’s also up to you to make sure that you have your things ready for school, that you’re not behind on, um, you know, getting somewhere because you can’t find your, your cleats or whatever you need for the next activity.”

Jim: So before we move from that example, it’s obvious you struggled with that.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So how did you overcome your need of control for the need of transference to that-

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … child to control their own bedroom? Even when it was dirtier than you would be comfortable with?

Jessica: Well, a lot of it is, just realizing, this is a long-term game I’m looking at.

Jim: Okay.

Jessica: I’m, I’m sitting here with a 13-year-old saying, “Hey, take care of your room,” I wanna know by the time they’re 18 that they can manage their life well. They can find the things they need before they leave the house. You know and they know, because they’ve had a series of hard knocks, and had a few times where they didn’t, it didn’t turn out so well, that they can learn these lessons when they’re in my home.

Jim: Right.

Jessica: Um, but also that, you know, there’s a point you realize that your child, your, your young adult is gonna end up being out of the house at some point and you have a timeline ticking. You know, you’ve got to get that under control.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: It’s exactly right.

Jessica: And you’ve got to have this idea that, it doesn’t matter whether I wanna let this go or not, it’s going to be outta my control at some point. And so this is a good time to pass that on to them. And progressively, you know, things get more complicated. You start letting go of things that are more valuable to you. Maybe it’s, uh, the friends that they hang out with, or the, the boy or girl that they begin to date. You know, that you don’t say a lot about that. You don’t, I mean, you have conversations about it, but you cannot control it.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: And you realize it’s out of your control.

Jim: I would think the high control parent, Ken, and I’m just imagining you sitting in the, in the counseling session, (laughs), and the parents going, ‘Of course I need to be involved in that choice of who-

Dr. WIlgus: Right.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … who he or she, my son or daughter dates.” “I mean, you’d have to be a ostrich, Dr. Ken.”

Dr. WIlgus: Right.

Jim: “I’d be putting my head in the sand.”

Dr. WIlgus: It seems foolish.

Jim: “I’m trying to protect my child.”

Dr. WIlgus: That’s right.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: “Ken, are you crazy?”

Dr. WIlgus: Right.

Jim: Speak to that fear.

Dr. WIlgus: Well, most of the time, that’s what that sounds like.

Jim: Yep.

Dr. WIlgus: It sounds like the more passionate, the more knowledgeable, it’s actually the more fearful parent.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: And, um, you know, and again, I live and breathe fear, but, we should try to push back on it and not sort of be proud of it. Um, and, and we talk about this on the podcast rather a lot that, now more than ever, Christian families cannot afford to raise a kind of weak, uh, passive obedient, uh, I go to church because my parents make me, even if I’m 19 or 20. Um, because the world is a place that is darker and darker, and we need young adults that have had the experience of making their own choices about things. Even if our parents don’t agree with us, we still need to know from parents, do you know that it’s my time to make these choices? So that they are ready, like Jessica was saying, they’re ready because they need to be going on-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: … uh, into their life.

Jim: Let’s talk about some of those boundaries that you outlined in the book, just to help parents get a picture of what we’re talking about. The healthy boundaries that need to be there.

Dr. WIlgus: Yes.

Jim: Um, what would be two or three examples of those?

Dr. WIlgus: So, there’s, there’s two kinds of boundaries. The, the first boundary we talk about is a freedoms list, and Jessica mentioned that, with freedom always comes responsibility. So, if you have the freedom to keep your room clean, your room is attached to my house, so you can’t keep food there, there’ll be a fine. You’ll be doing your own laundry, those sort of things. Uh, freedom to listen to your own music, which parents need to know, a teenager is going to listen to the music they want to. So-

Jim: With or without your permission. (laughing).

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: Well, it, absolutely.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: So, your control over that gets weaker. But by announcing, “You know what? That’s between you and God. However, if I catch your sister, your little sister listening to it, you’re gonna lose your phone for a day. You need to be… So there’s still responsibilities where that freedom doesn’t spill out onto us.

Jim: Oh, that’s good. I like that.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

John: Well, this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guests are Dr. Ken Wilgus and Jessica Pfeiffer. And we’re talking about Ken’s terrific book, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You. We’ve got copies of that here at the ministry. Uh, give us a call, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast for all the details.

Jim: You know, one of the things that is, it seems more rampant in the culture today is this entitlement issue.

Dr. WIlgus: Oh, yes.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s probably because we’re, you know, we’re rather successful as a culture, there’s abundance for most things.

Dr. WIlgus: I think that’s right.

Jim: We don’t live in a kind of a resource starved environment. And with our children it becomes easy that everything is right there. You know, we go to baseball games and football games and concerts and their life seems pretty easy, right? And, uh, how do we combat that entitlement mentality, especially with our Christian children?

Dr. WIlgus: Well, I think with children, you know, under teenage years, Jessica and I have talked a lot about, you know, you’re careful about how it’s hard now to not have kids have just everything they want. Uh, and so, that’s a different battle. But for adolescents, that changes a bit to, um, more of, expecting them to handle things themselves, to make their own, uh, purchases, make their own money, more and more freedom. Because the real, um, kind of entitlement that you give to teenagers is, where you will take care of everything for them. Not expect them to manage anything themselves. And even constantly talk about, how do they feel about this thing is if that’s the critical factor.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: It’s, it turns out to be disrespectful. It’s how you would talk to a child, but not how you would talk to a responsible adult.

John: Hmm.

Jim: In that regard, uh, I would think, again, one of the difficulties we have as Christian parents, not just Christian moms, but moms and dads, ’cause I’m guilty of this too. Um, a bit of our identity is in taking care of these children that-

Dr. WIlgus: That’s right.

Jim: … God has given us. So, when we’re overdoing that, uh, we might feel good about it, we might, uh, find a little bit of identity in that, that, we’re so good at taking care of our family, there’s no needs here. That’s not a healthy perspective.

Dr. WIlgus: No. And it’s a common struggle for moms. I mean, I think that’s something that you’ve-

Jessica: For sure.

Dr. WIlgus: … dealt with.

Jim: (laughs).

Jessica: I, I tend to over parent. I mean, that’s probably one of my biggest struggles is-

Jim: How do you pull that back?

Jessica: Well, I think a lot of times I, I think that, you know, I’ve given my kids a rule or, you know, some sort of consequence to something that they’ve done. But instead of allowing them to suffer that consequence, I’m gonna keep nagging-

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jessica: … so they can avoid it.

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jessica: Or I’m going to protect them against that consequence or lighten that consequence. Just because, they don’t like it, it pains them, it pains me to see them go through it. Uh, but actually I’ve just handed my kids a lot of entitlement. (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: Right.

Jessica: I’ve just handed my kids an opportunity to shirk the responsibility and the consequence they should have served.

Dr. WIlgus: But I think that for most nurturing moms, the, the recommendation, again, by adolescents, not for children, to pull back and leave that to them, feels like unloving in a way.

Jessica: It does.

Jim: Right.

Jessica: It does.

Jim: Exactly.

Jessica: I really, I really wanna protect them from any pain, you know?

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica: And that’s not healthy. They need to experience hardship. They need to experience pain from their decisions and their consequences of their actions.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah. That’s so good. Uh, Dr. Ken, what age is appropriate to start that planned emancipation process?

Dr. WIlgus: I like 13.

Jim: And, and, 13?

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, what are the first few steps getting there? Just so the parents can take a taste of this?

Dr. WIlgus: So there’s usually, there’s usually two things. We’ll get questions about, how do I start this? And then the most common one is, “Oh, we’re too late. We didn’t start this. Uh, what do we do now?” And you can do both. So, I really like 13. If you get a chance to go to a bar mitzvah, it is lovely.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: It is really cool. But I’ve had numerous clients who I went to their bar mitzvah, but I knew they went home to the same kind of childish expectations. And so, it didn’t carry the same weight, uh, that the ceremony does. So, if you do something, I think, uh… So, I live in Texas, we don’t have bar mitzvah, but we do have barbecue.

Jim: (laughing).

Dr. WIlgus: And so, uh-

Jim: I thought you were gonna say, bull riding.

Dr. WIlgus: … you know, there’s that. So we are… Look at me, do I look like I’m riding? So-

Jim: I think you’d be pretty good at it.

Dr. WIlgus: (laughs). Thank you for that. I, uh, uh, we took my son, uh, with his grandfathers and uncle and cousin and just a bunch of men had met at this barbecue restaurant. They’d each written a letter. There’s some really good resources.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: I think focuses about h- kind of as a signal, but the more important thing the signal is, you’re now a young adult and you come home to some changes. So in my house, the, the Nutty Professor that I am-

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: … um, it was, “You no longer have to answer to us about your music. You no longer have to ans- answer to us about your room with these, you know, caveats. And, um, these are now up to you.” And, uh, so that’s I think the ideal way, is roughly at 13 years old, the key is to make an announcement that in this house you are now a young adult, not an old child. And keep looking for ways to say that.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: If your kid is now 16, 17, sometimes even later, it’s never too late to… My favorite thing is that they’ll… Uh, tell parents, “Look, why don’t you just go home and say there’s this shrink dude who thinks that when we’re trying to help you-

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: … uh, it feels to you like we think you’re a child.”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: “And we wanna change that because we do see you as a young adult. And we’re gonna try to make sure that’s more clear in the way that we talk to you and the restrictions that we have.”

Jim: So I’m hearing very clearly you announced this at-

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jim: … at the appropriate time. 13 is a good time to start, and then you’re following that through until they leave the home for various things.

Dr. WIlgus: Yep.

Jim: Jessica, how’d that work for you? (laughing).

Jessica: Well, my kids appreciate the freedoms. They’re excited about it, right? They just-

Jim: So they like it?

Dr. WIlgus: They like, they like me.

Jessica: Yes, they do.

Jim: (laughs).

Jessica: Well, yeah, mostly. (laughs).

Jim: If we’re talking mom down off the roof.

Dr. WIlgus: Right.

Jessica: Mostly. You know, I think the thing is they realize, “Uh-oh, this is, I’m, I’m gonna be getting some freedoms.” But they also realize that, their older siblings especially, they can see, “Oh, when I get to this age, I get this, this happens in our house.” And to have those sort of milestones that they can look forward to, is helpful to know that, “By the time I leave this house, I’ll have all the freedoms to me as an adult. You know, I’ll be able to do whatever I want. And there’s no way that mom and dad are gonna try and take those things back.”

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: So.

Jim: The benefit of the contradictory belief is critical. And, and what I mean by that is, everything we’ve said, you know, that my inclination as a parent is overprotect, over provide, always have an escape plan for the child, et cetera. And that, that just comes so naturally. It’s probably a very fleshly thing for us to do. Not realizing the wisdom of allowing a little bit of difficulty and suffering. And that, that sounds very contrary.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But how in the end, we’ve talked all, all session here about how that benefits the child, how does it benefit the parent?

Jessica: Well, one, it makes your life feel a little bit easier when they are of 18. You know, when they turn 18 and they have, uh, they’ve experienced these things at home, then when they go off to college, you’re not so worried about it.

Jim: So you’ve seen that?

Jessica: Yes.

Jim: You’ve got 23, 24-year-old.

Jessica: I have a, I have a 20-year-old and a 23-year-old.

Jim: Okay.

Jessica: And I am so happy to announce, my 23-year-old is completely financially responsible for himself.

Dr. WIlgus: Boom.

Jessica: (laughing).

Jim: Yes. It’s payback.

Jessica: He’s off my payroll.

Dr. WIlgus: Yes.

Jim: How do I get this book?

Jessica: (laughing). Um, and I’m so proud of him. He’s a great, he’s a great guy. He’s doing great things with his life. And so I do see that these steps to freedom, have allowed him to grow the way, and mature the way he should.

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jessica: And same with my daughter who’s 20, she’s in college, but she is definitely independent. She knows that mom and dad are gonna say, “You know, you’re an adult. You get to make these decisions now.”

Jim: Yeah. And I think it’s so good, Ken. I’m thinking of the parent listening right now, and they’ve got a junior, senior, maybe 17, maybe 18, still in the home. They’re not off to college or vocational training or whatever they’re gonna go do. Is it too late?

Dr. WIlgus: I think it’s never too late. And I’m literally-

Jim: Never too late.

Dr. WIlgus: … I’ve literally… Sometimes these con- uh, control battles are still going on with a 20 something year old that is not even at home. ‘Cause, you just, you know, a lot of planned emancipation is really more of just a, an a, a continual announcement that you are an adult. Um, it’s not a specific math formula of you better do these things at this point. So the, the announcement, the, the kinda recognition that we see you as an adult, is never too late. And it can be powerful, especially since the power of that, of letting go is the impact that you can have in communication.

Jessica: Hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: That sometimes parents have never even had that in their own relationship with their parents.

Jim: I think very few-

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah. It’s, it’s pretty common.

Jim: … would have experienced something like this.

Dr. WIlgus: ‘Cause this problem’s been going on for three generations. We’re th- used to thinking that being a parent is, “Oh, great. Mom’s gonna come over. She’s gonna tell us how we’re not doing this and this and this.” Again, that did not use to happen like that.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: It was, it’s a, it’s a new thing that we feel like we must always parent our adult children even as-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: … as if they’re children. So it’s never too late to make that announcement.

Jim: I would say, our experience with Trent, uh, was really exceptional because we talked with you about where we were at and some of the difficulties we were having. You made some recommendations on giving certain control back to him. I mean, some things that kinda took our breath away, like, being 18 and deciding whether he needs to come to church every Sunday.

Dr. WIlgus: Yep.

Jim: That’s a big one.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I remember Jean and I both going, “I don’t know about that.” right?

Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim: But it, it was within a few days after that emancipation-

Dr. WIlgus: Yes.

Jim: … if I could call it that, that Trent turned emotionally back toward us. It was no longer a fight. He didn’t have to wake up every day thinking, “What am I gonna tell him? How I’m I-

Dr. WIlgus: And didn’t that emancipation kinda make sense to you?

Jim: Oh, totally. Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: I think it makes, you know, as fathers, it tends to make… None, we’ve not had these children in us, it’s much-

Jim: Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: … easier for us to, to, to kinda think about that, he’s gotta do it himself.

Jim: Yeah, that’s so good. Listen, we’ve just began to dug in.

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I wanna come back next time, get a little deeper into some of these great methodologies that I believe are God breathed. He’s trying to teach us something here, about how to let go of control.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, and by doing so, actually gaining the heart of that teenager, which is, really, the long-term goal in having that relationship. So thanks for being with us.

Jessica: Right.

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: Oh, glad to be here.

Jim: Let me turn to our listeners. Uh, Focus on the Family is here for you. Our mission is to help you and your family thrive in the name of Christ. Uh, to equip you to be more specific as you parent your children, especially your teens, as they evolve from children, (laughs), into responsible adults. I’m laughing ’cause we all face the same thing.

John: (laughs).

Jim: Uh, if we can be of any help, please contact us.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Don’t be embarrassed. We’ve heard it all over 47 years, we’ve been doing this. We have a friendly staff that can give you some great guidance and provide you with terrific resources to get you moving in a good direction. One of those outstanding resources is Dr. Ken Wilgus’s book, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You. Uh, you can get a copy directly from Focus on the Family. And when you do, the proceeds don’t go into shareholders’ pockets, they go right back into ministry. Which is so needed right now in the family. After a year of, uh, stressful politics, financial challenges, you know, weird weather events-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … all the things that have been going on, uh, we could use a little hope in the family right now.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: This Christmas Season is the perfect time to share the hope that Jesus Christ came to give. And you can come alongside those facing challenges and give families hope through your support of Focus on the Family.

John: Every single day people reach out to us here at Focus, for help by phone, mail, and email. And couples with broken marriages, uh, stressed out parents, so many others who need your help.

Jim: We need your support today to save and strengthen families. And I gotta ask the question, will you help us do ministry together? When you donate today a gift of any amount, we’ll send you a copy of Ken’s book, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You, as our way of saying thank you for giving families that hope by joining us in ministry. And on behalf of those folks, uh, you’ll be reaching through Focus on the Family in 2025, let me say, thank you.

John: Mm. Yeah. Your gift is gonna be doubled, dollar for dollar through a special year-end matching opportunity. And God is gonna use your donation to bring hope, healing, and redemption, to twice as many individuals and families. Donate today and request your copy of Feeding The Mouth That Bites You. We’ve got all the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 1-800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Join us again tomorrow for more of the conversation with Dr. Ken Wilgus and Jessica Pfeiffer. For now, on behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

DAY TWO

Preview:

Dr. Ken Wilgus: Well, a really important thing that I learned early on, and I want to make sure parents know, is that, we live in an unusual culture that does not have a standardized means of transitioning our children into adulthood. Because of that, you don’t have to give teenagers everything they want, but they do need to know, “Am I on a track here where you will be out of my life and it will be up to me?”

End of Preview

John Fuller: That’s Dr. Ken Wilgus and he joins us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, along with Jessica Pfeiffer, his podcast Co-host. Thank you for joining us, I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, we had an excellent conversation last time about the key things that parents need to know about raising teens. (laughs). And I even talked about our success, uh, in our parenting after reading Dr. Ken Wilgus’ great book, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Once I stopped laughing about the title, we got into the content.

John: (laughs).

Jim: Such a great insight into what you’re trying to achieve as a parent. And sometimes we, particularly as Christian parents, we’re looking for spiritual excellence and never doing wrong and all these kinds of, uh, absolutes, which are important. But you have got to learn, you do not control that teenager.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Just like the Lord doesn’t control you. And He tells us, “Choose life or death. It’s your choice.” And our goal is to help our teens choose life.

John: Yeah.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And choose the Lord, live for the Lord, and do that out of their own power, not under the influence, the unhealthy influence of that controlling parent. Did I get your attention?

John: (laughing).

Jim: And I’m guilty of it.

John: Yeah.

Jim: We are, we have been controlling parents, so it’s just part of it. We talked about last time how to hand over, emancipate, and hand over some of those responsibilities-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to a 13-year-old, right on through 18. And when they leave school and continuing that as a 20 something. And if that’s been a challenge for you as a parent, if you’re in that spot where you’re controlling too much and you know it, I don’t have to, uh, have you answer that publicly, you’ll know in your heart. Right, Jessica?

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You just know. Okay, that is me. Uh, this is gonna be exceptionally helpful for you.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And in the end, as Dr. Ken Wilgus will talk about, you’re the beneficiary of this as a parent. It puts you in a much better place and your relationship with your teen, in a much better place. So I’m looking forward to it, John.

John: I am too. And if you missed part one of the conversation, uh, go back and listen on our mobile app or watch the video on our YouTube channel. It’s worth your time. Uh, Ken Wilgus is with us again. Uh, Dr. Ken Wilgus is a popular speaker, author and psychologist. Uh, he specializes in adolescent behavior and, uh, we’re addressing concepts in his book, as you mentioned, Jim, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You: Parenting Teenagers Into Adulthood. Uh, we’ve got that here at the ministry. You’ll find it at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Also in the studio with us, Jessica Pfeiffer, she’s Ken’s, uh, co-host on his podcast by the same title, uh, as the book. And she has four kids, from the early twenties down to early teens. She’s been there and knows it and she’s, uh, kind of our living example of how this works in the home.

Jim: (laughing). The Guinea pig. Is that fun or what, Jessica?

Jessica Pfeiffer: A little bit. Yeah.

John: Exhibit A.

Jessica: It worked for my four kids, right?

Jim: (laughing). It’s good to have both of you back. Thanks for being here.

Dr. WIlgus: Good.

Jessica: Thanks.

Jim: Um, Jessica, I’m gonna start with you this time. Uh, we heard from you a little bit yesterday about those experiences. Give us that recap on planned emancipation.

Jessica: Well, planned emancipation is sort of the idea that, from the ages of 13 to 18, you’re gonna be transitioning your kid from a young adult to a ready to go out of the house, adult. Uh, and so, you have certain things that you wanna accomplish in that time and hand over to them, these freedoms that you’re going to be allowing or giving to them. You know that you can’t control these areas anymore and by the time they’re 18, they’re a full-fledged adult.

Jim: Yeah. What I appreciated about your, uh, confession last time, (laughs)-

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … was your tendency to be the controlling mom.

Jessica: Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I so appreciate that honesty, because most of us Christian parents tend to, tend to lean in that direction, right?

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We wanna control outcomes, sometimes for ourself.

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, look at my family, isn’t it spotless?

Jessica: Right.

Jim: And it’s so unhealthy.

Jessica: It’s so unhealthy and prideful, right?

Jim: And, and prideful. Right.

Jessica: Yes.

Jim: At the core of it. Ken, it was great to have you last time. Good to have you back in here.

Dr. WIlgus: Thanks. Thanks.

Jim: Um, let me ask you in that regard, uh, that bigger goal of, the idea of at 18, you want that young adult to be able to move out and stand on their own two feet or wherever that might be.

Dr. WIlgus: Really at the end of high school. Yeah.

Jim: Yeah. The end of high school. Um, why are we not thinking that way? Why are we thinking to treat them like a child up until the point when we kiss ’em goodbye to go to college or out the door?

Dr. WIlgus: It’s a, it’s really a cultural shift since, um, the cult the, um, industrial revolution. Um-

Jim: So, relatively new?

Dr. WIlgus: Relatively new. 13 year olds used to be pretty much ready to, to go out in the fields with the men and do, you know, work and kind of, you could begin to s- establish a household, you know, a couple hundred years ago. Well, now that, there’s much more training needed. And so, uh, it wasn’t really until after World War II that I think as Americans we snapped adolescents onto the end of childhood instead of where it should be, which is on the beginning of adulthood.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: So it, it’s been going on for a long time. And a lot of the parents that are doing this and seeing the advantages, they never fully saw it themselves, because their parents, good people, but they never signaled to me, “Listen, don’t ask me that. That’s up to you.” So it can feel kind of odd.

Jim: So this area of communication, I, I’m kind of chuckling, ’cause you have counseled thousands of parents in their teens. They’re sitting in front of you in your office. You must have some hilarious stories about how, you know, how blind we can become.

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jim: Maybe give us an example of a couple of those where you’re going, “Okay, this is gonna be fun.” (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: So I remember not that long ago, some parents that came to see me because of their teenager, but they just by the way mentioned, that their 20 something year old daughter was gonna have a wedding in just a couple of weeks. And they weren’t going to go, because they had not approved of this boy. Who was, I think a Christian, but not the right kind of… I don’t remember what it was. But they just mentioned that as a, as a toss off that, “You know, we’re, we are not in favor of this, so we’re not going to go. “And I asked them, “Well, what is your goal? What, what do you hope to accomplish?” And then I said, “look, let me tell you what’s going to happen. You are currently on a raft, way, way off in your daughter’s distant horizon, giving some sort of advice that she’s not listening to. And you’re about to drop off the end of the horizon, as far as any kind of influence over her life.”

Jim: Hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: Because of this very weak control thing of, uh, that is, I guess, ancient. I don’t know. I know that when my sons-in-law asked me to marry, uh, my daughters, the first thing I said was, “I really appreciate you asking. Because I know that if my daughter is in love… If, if you’re who she wants to marry… It’s, you know, it’s about s- signaling where your control is. So I have to often kind of, talk to parents that are, that get kinda stuck in a, in a control battle that’s, that’s sort of got, gotten out of hand. Uh, and, and my goal is not that they need to be nicer or not nice, it’s, you are losing your impact-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: … on your adult children.

Jim: So Jessica as the practitioner at the table with your children-

Jessica: (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jim: … how, you know, how did this communication thing unfold for you? Did, was it in a poor spot and got better or you and your husband Charlie were generally pretty good with communication?

Jessica: We’re pretty good with communication, I would say. But I know that there have been several periods in my kids’ lives, different, different experiences for each kid. Where, you know, I, I have one child who was making all kinds of poor choices that I could not even possibly agree with. But the idea that I cut off communication by telling him what to do all the time, uh-

Jim: (laughs).

Jessica: … when he was clearly out of that stage of life, uh, meant that I would never have any influence or impact on him. And I couldn’t talk to him about the things that were important to me. So not only did I talk to him, but I talked to God a lot about him. (laughs).

Jim: Right.

Jessica: And I think that is the most important aspect of parenting, of course, anyway.

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jessica: Uh, and so opening that door by not trying to control the situation or tell him what to do every time, left it… So he wanted to call me. He didn’t try to avoid me when he was off at college or whatever.

Jim: Right. No, that’s good. To wrap this in a bow, Ken, for the parents that are struggling in that communication space, any like single powerful point of advice that they should walk away with listening to this?

Dr. WIlgus: I, I think besides what Jessica said, is these are the times that we do learn about our faith. And the first step really should be to pray and really know that God is there with your teenager when you’re not.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: And this is never a glitch. Um, and I think from that lesser fear state, I think it can offer a parent a much more opportunity to clarify that, “The things that I’m talking to you about are not direction, I’m not the knower. I just want to talk to you adult to adult.” And, and experience the freedom that you can give, have with that-

Jim: Yeah, that’s good.

Dr. WIlgus: … of having adult children that really tell you.

Jim: Let’s move from communication to school. Um, parents have a variety of experience with their teens in school. It can be really good. And you have your honor student and you’ll buy the bumper sticker, put it on your car, and the rest of us look at it and go, “What?” (laughing). Or, the struggler, uh, they’re distracted by something or many things, friends, social activities, those kinds of things. Describe that environment of school and the impact on the parenting demand.

Dr. WIlgus: Well, it, in, in the culture that I work with, um, most all the parents I work with are, school is a huge deal. And, and really-

Jim: Yeah. ‘Cause you really want them to achieve.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: Well, and, and of course, that, school isn’t the magic path to everything. Certainly doing okay in school. I remember year, years ago there was an article that said, “Whatever happened to the C student?” There’s no C student.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: My student needs some special ed something and then bump ’em up to A. So it’s the, the important part is that it can create a kind of cloud over a family’s life from September to June.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: And, uh, and, and-

Jim: A lot of battles occur.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: A lot of battles.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: So one of the early things that parents, uh, can consider giving over is the, uh, freedom to manage school however you want. But here are the s- the points when we’re gonna check your grades. And if the grades are not at the minimal expectation, there will be consequences. But then you can stop all of the, what are you doing this weekend? Did you study? Did you tell me the… Because as you know, if you spend time with teenagers who don’t know anything, for example, about algebra, they still know that you don’t need to be telling me about algebra. Like, the, it doesn’t, you, you wait for the, well, he failed, so then he’ll realize that he needs my help. They do not. It’s still, control is that big a deal-

Jim: Hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: … that, uh, I don’t want you to take over this. So by letting go of the, the control of how you do it, does not mean that you’re letting go of expectations with school. Uh, and that gets back to the, uh, you didn’t make the minimum grade, yeah, but it was one point away. Yeah, that’s one point you didn’t make, and so, here’s the consequence for it. So you wanna be pretty consistent about that.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: But at the same time, you can immediately drop all of that argument, all that stuff, because it is now up to them.

Jim: Yeah.

John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And our guests today are Dr. Ken Wilgus and Jessica Pfeiffer. And, uh, we’re talking obviously about, raising kids to be adults who are, uh, owning their stuff and they’re able to manage life. This is such great content. And, uh, it’s captured in Ken’s book, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You. Look for that book online. We’re at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or give us a call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459.

Jim: Jessica, let me aim this to you and then, Ken, uh, you can fill in some of the blanks. But managing money-

Jessica: Yeah. (laughs).

Jim: … you know, this is a big one in the teens.

Dr. WIlgus: Ah, it’s a big, big one.

Jim: You know, in terms of, “Well, get a job.”

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Or they do stuff around the house and you’re paying them, you know, chore money, basically. Uh, how did you manage the money discussion with your teens and was it successful or full of strife?

Jessica: Well, I think, uh, we’ve done things differently with each kid because we’ve learned a few lessons along the way.

Jim: That’s great.

Jessica: Right?

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: You know, with four kids, you start with one kid and you think, “This doesn’t work. So I’m gonna change everything.”

Jim: That poor firstborn. (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm. Totally.

Jessica: They’re, they’re, they’re suffering consequences-

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: … of our poor parenting. But, uh, I would say that, the thing that we really realized was that, you know, for managing money, the simplest thing is to, for us is for, to give them a lump sum, you know, each week. And it covers a few things, uh, but it doesn’t cover everything. Because we want our kids to have to have some skin in the game, right?

Jim: Have to.

Jessica: So, we may give them enough money for gas to get to and from school, but we’re not giving enough money to head out with their friends every weekend or go to the movies, that sort of thing.

Jim: Yeah. And that works. Ken, what would you add for the parents that are struggling in that area? Especially the more affluent you are, typically, the bigger the weekly stipend might be.

Dr. WIlgus: That’s right.

Jim: And-

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: Well, what I like about that question is ’cause, it’s, it’s well known that Jessica and her husband did a really good job of the finance stuff.

Jim: Hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: And we’re as happy with the outcome of our kids as she’s with hers.

Jim: Oh, that’s good.

Dr. WIlgus: But my wife and I were not as good about that.

Jim: Oh.

Dr. WIlgus: Uh, so we’d be kind of, on it for a while and then kinda had left, uh, let it lapse and so forth. So, again, it’s not math, but I think the key is, is what Jessica said about, it’s respectful to make sure that your kid has skin in the game. I do remember, uh, one of our daughters was at a late point in her dance career that, I don’t think that was gonna be her future. And yet she still needed to go to these expensive things. And we really kinda agonized for back and forth until we finally said, “You know what? If this is important, then we’ll pay half.” And all of a sudden, I think almost all of them just weren’t that important anymore.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: If she had to pay the other half, it just… So, and again, it’s respectful to her, it’s not teaching, um, an important thing. It’s just, uh, remembering that, you know, “You’re a young adult. You need to make your own decisions about these things.”

Jim: Let me ask you, let’s move to screen time. This is probably one of the biggest inquiries-

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that we receive here at Focus on the Family.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: How do I control my kids’ screen time? And, I mean, this starts young. It could be eight years old, five years old, but certainly by 13, if there’s a lack of boundaries around that, uh, parents are totally frustrated. It’s outta control. And I don’t know what to do about it.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So, Jessica, let me turn to you and say, how do you help me control this screen time?

Dr. WIlgus: (laughing).

Jessica: Well, I would say that screen time and devices are about 80% of my parenting.

Jim: Wow.

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jessica: I think it’s totally different than the parenting that my parents were doing with me, where I didn’t have, uh, that much access to screen time. Uh, so I would say parents today are really struggling with how much and what is right. And there we’re finding so much out as we go, which is, really hard as a parent to realize your kid is a Guinea pig in this whole system.

Jim: Hmm.

Jessica: We don’t know how these devices are gonna affect our kids long-term, but we do know that they’re not good. So how do we manage that? Well, I think the first thing is, is that you realize how old your kid is. You know, are we talking about a 13-year-old? Are we talking about a 17-year-old? So what are the rules around a 13-year-old? And I think in my family, we’ve set rules about, where the screen time happens. It happens in public places, it doesn’t happen upstairs. It doesn’t happen in a bedroom or a bathroom situation. It always happens in public places. And then we also, fortunately, now have a lot of controls on their devices that we place on their devices or on our home Wi-Fi that keeps things managed. Uh, but my 17-year-old, what are, what are the rules around that? Well, she’s about to leave, right? So, how do I manage that? There’s a lot more freedom that she’s given there. You know, she’s allowed to… Uh, she turns… Uh, actually for, in our house it’s graduation day. Graduation day, you get to finally take your devices upstairs to your bedroom.

Jim: Oh, okay.

Jessica: Uh, the, we don’t have screens in the bedroom before that, but, when you’re 18, you’re an adult. What do you get to do? You’re, you’re gonna have that freedom when you graduate from high school. We leave it till the end of school so we make sure that they’re graduating. (laughs).

Jim: Right. No, that’s good. Because I think this is the battle. You’re right.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And 80… I mean, that’s a shocking statement. 80% of your parenting is-

Jessica: It takes a lot of my time.

Jim: … phone and screen time stuff. Probably the best advice that I heard here at the b- in the broadcast from a screen expert was, delay that decision for smartphone as long as you can.

Jessica: Yes.

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that really worked for Jean and I, because I think Trent got his first smartphone at 17 and Troy was 15. ‘Cause that’s their age differentiation.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And so, that’s, that’s what we chose to do. But whenever they would say, “You know, my friend, all our friends have the phone.”

Dr. WIlgus: Right.

Jim: And I’d say, “Oh yeah, let me talk to mom about that,” and I’d let six months go by.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then finally they’d realized, “Dad never got back to us on this. (laughing). Where’s that phone thing at Dad?” “Oh yeah, man, let me talk to Jean about that. Or mom about that,” right?

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So, uh, you know, eventually we just said, “We’re not gonna do that until you’re older.” And I think that worked really well for us. They had a, well, I guess what you call a dumb phone that they could put in their car-

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … when they first started driving, but it didn’t give ’em GPS or anything. So.

Dr. WIlgus: But I think it’s real important for parents to know that, in these last 10 years, we’ve lived through a huge-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: … upheaval. That no one really knew in 2007 when the iPhone was released, by 2009, um, there’s just lots of data. If you read The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, there’s, um, there’s enough data now that you’re hearing about Meta, which I think is the Facebook company and all. They’re starting to roll out controls that they did not do before, because it hurt them financially. Because of the data that this is not good for our kids. And so, the important thing now, what’s really difficult if you’re thinking about planned emancipation is to be effective, is to, um… And the recommendation now is no smartphone really until, um, your s- freshman year and no, uh, social media till 16. Well, that’s a very, very hard line to draw.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: And if your kids have no sense of, uh, that if they basically think everything my parents are telling me is kid stuff, then the last kid I saw that who’s lost his phone for a month, had four devices from friends, uh, that he could get on.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: So to be effective with that, you really have to both, push the, “Look, you’re growing up here, you’re more of an adult,” while you clarify the message that, “This stuff is bad for all of us, and really, all of us should rethink our phones and so forth.”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: But that’s why, to be effective, you have to be signaling, “This isn’t us treating you like a child, that you as an adult.”

Jim: In, in that context, Ken, those conversations with your 15, 16, 17-year-old, uh, where the, the discussion can be a little more mature, obviously, than a 13, 14-year-old. But in that context, the whole key is how to teach them to be responsible for those decisions that they’re gonna make.

Dr. WIlgus: That’s right. Yeah.

Jim: I think you should start as a parent realizing that you’re not gonna be able to keep it all out. Your kids will find a workaround-

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … through other friends, through other… They will get to content they wanna get to. That was my conclusion.

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So the bigger issue is, how do you teach them the harm of those things, to help them to produce a better decision in their lives? That’s the victory.

Dr. WIlgus: And the, and for a teenager to teach that, you have to first answer the hidden question, “Why are you still telling me how to handle this?”

Jim: Right.

Dr. WIlgus: “And when will you say it’s up to me?” You answer that first and then you can say, and there’s lots now to be able to say, “We don’t like that we’re pulling back on this. We wish you could have that freedom and you will have that freedom. But we’re actually gonna hold off because… And again, you can be supported by reams of data.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: It’s just wrecking kids.

Jim: Well, and to your point, Jessica, it’s overwhelming and it’s one of the good things that we do here is Plugged In, which is, really to provide insight for parents and teens too, about movies, about games, about all kinds of things that is in that social media space. And so, I’d encourage you to check out Plugged In-

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … here at Focus on the Family. And the website will have that. You can always look for it. Call us. John will give those details in a minute. But I think, uh, as you said, this is such a big battle. Um, I think with boys, I don’t know that this is true with girls, Jessica. You can help me better understand that. But, you know, gaming is a big issue-

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and a lot of the addictions occur in that space. H- how do you control those things, Ken?

Dr. WIlgus: Well, the most common, it’s harder to predict exactly or to see the consequences for boys, because gaming and pornography is more, uh, harmful for them.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. WIlgus: For girls, it’s social media and that it’s-

Jim: Right.

Dr. WIlgus: … very clear, uh, tracking that. So for boys in games, I think it’s similar in that, you have to, as parents, be kind to yourself. You wake up after the end of the summer and you’re like, “He’s playing this all the time.” Well, just step back in and go, “Look, really sorry about this, ’cause this, but we, we gotta redraw the lines again.” Uh, always saying, uh, at what point you will no longer draw the lines. But yeah, you do need to go back to being pretty clear about, uh, really the amount of time. For older teenage boys, it’s harder and harder to get across the message of trying to control the type of game. And there are horrible games out there.

Jim: Oh, yeah. I mean, that’s-

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: But, but a big part of that is probably best dealt with by communication. That really, “You, you, you’re 17, you want that game? Do you ever worry about how God sees that?” That’s, that’s a communication you can’t have, unless you’ve said, “It’s now time for you to make those decisions yourself.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then, buckle up and be on for the ride, right?

Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: And you’re gonna go through the 20 somethings and there’s gonna be bumps in the road because of that. This has been so good.

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I do wanna squeeze in, I mean, dating. And this, you know, (laughs)-

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … let’s give 30 seconds to dating. Jessica, how did you manage the dating? Uh, maybe especially for the girls. We didn’t really have that issue. Our boys didn’t really date in high school. It’s very minimal.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So we never really confronted that. But how, how would you manage that or how did you manage that with your kids?

Jessica: So my husband and I told our kids, you know, “You can call it whatever you want, but before 16, you’re not dating anybody.”

Jim: (laughs). That’s sounds very definitive.

Jessica: You can call it a boyfriend, but you’re not going anywhere. So, that, that’s, that was our hard rule. But once, once you turn 16, I’m not going to control who you date. Now, if that person is somehow disrespectful to me, I could say I don’t want them in my home. But, uh, at this point, I’ve not, I’ve never had to do that. Uh, my kids have chosen people to date that I would not have chosen for them, that’s for sure. And so, one, I pray hard. (laughs). I pray hard that, that God protects them in those relationships and that they learn good lessons in those relationships. But I think we, we, uh, have to just step back and say, “This is your life. This is your relationship. I know I couldn’t possibly keep you from this communication with this person.” Um, but we wait it out.

Jim: Yeah.

Jessica: We wait it out, and we, we give advice, you know?

Dr. WIlgus: That’s exactly right.

Jim: It’s so good.

Dr. WIlgus: Yeah.

Jim: Ken, let’s end here with this, uh, as parents consider the idea of letting go of their teens, uh, that fear comes into play. And depending upon how controlling and how fearful they are, the deeper that fear and control will be. Uh, talk to that mom or dad who are feeling really nervous about taking these steps toward emancipation for their teens. Uh, share some words of encouragement, I guess. (laughs).

Dr. WIlgus: Well, you know, the thing I always wanna make sure parents hear is the, the, parenting has become such a burden. And so, no one is talking about a formula that, if you do these things, you can guarantee that your children will turn out this way.

Jim: Right.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: And, and a lot of times pulling back with freedom, has actually been taken as, is this the technique then? I, he was failing, and so we stopped arguing with him. And does that mean he’ll be valedictorian? No. No, no. Of course not. It is, preparing for adulthood. And for parents to pull back and not keep judging themselves based on whether this kid is doing great, whether they love and wanna talk to me. I think a lot of that has to do with, you’re probably a better parent than you think.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. WIlgus: Uh, and, and the outcome of your parenting cannot rest in, uh, every moment of your kids liking you and success. Uh, it really has to be good enough parenting that you know in your heart that, that the Lord is, is pleased with your, uh, involvement and all of that, because it’s really ultimately His child. The Lord has no grandchildren, they’re His children or not.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, Ken and Jessica, this has been awesome. Uh, I’ve really enjoyed our great conversation these past two days. Uh, you both brought some great insight and I know you’ve, uh, helped a lot of parents see the relationship with their teens differently. And to you, our listener, I hope you’ve been encouraged to start helping your kids step into the larger world of adulthood. Uh, you know, this is why Focus on the Family exists. We want to give you the tools you need to do the things you need to do as a parent. And if you’re needing some guidance, that’s okay. We’ve only done this one time, right?

Dr. WIlgus: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We only are parents through that brief period of time. So please, get in touch with us. We have lots of resources and we can put those into your hands to help you. One of those is this outstanding book by Dr. Ken Wilgus, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You. It’s full of wisdom and practical steps. Jean and I have used it. I hope that’s, uh, enough of an endorsement and it really did help us. Uh, but get started in that emancipation process and solidify your relationship with your teen, as they become adults. And when you send a gift today of any amount, we’ll send that book to you as our way of saying thank you for supporting the ministry here at Focus on the Family.

John: Well, and Jim, this has been such an intense year with so much going on. I mean, the culture is full of conflict and families are under financial strain. And, uh, there’s just been so much upheaval and, uh, we hear more and more from people who are really desperate in their families. They’re, they’re really struggling with broken marriages, with, uh, stressful situations, uh, with the children, so much going on. There are hurting people who really need the encouragement that we have to offer here at Focus.

Jim: Well, and right now, John, this coming Christmas season, is the perfect time to share the hope, Jesus Christ came to give each one of us. And I wanna invite you to join the ministry here at Focus on the Family. And we also wanna come alongside your brothers and sisters in Christ with you, who are facing difficulties and challenges. We can do that together. Uh, you can give families hope through your support of Focus on the Family. Let’s hit the ground running in 2025. Be part of the Kingdom work being done here at Focus, to help families thrive in Christ. And I hope you know, when you do, you’re part of the mechanism God is using to get it done.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Uh, we’ll make it super easy for you. Uh, donate today a gift of any amount, and we’ll send you a copy of Ken’s book, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You, as our way of saying thank you for standing in the gap for other families.

John: And through a special year-end matching opportunity, we’re gonna be able to reach twice as many families. Uh, some friends of Focus have committed to doubling your gift, dollar for dollar. So donate today and request that book, Feeding The Mouth That Bites You. All the details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or call 1-800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.