Mr. Gary Thomas: Most of us get married for the times of joy and celebration and I’m thankful for those. We don’t deserve ‘em as much as we get ‘em. Those are wonderful parts of marriage. But there are other seasons of marriage, that while I would never choose them and while I won’t enjoy them, there are lessons to be learned. God is revealing Himself to me. He’s strengthening us. He’s taking us through a process and He’s helping us.
End of Excerpt
John Fuller: Well, even if you’re in a rough season of marriage right now, God can be and probably is working all things together for your good. And with that perspective in mind, we welcome you to another Focus on the Family with Focus president and author Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: Well, I think we can all relate to Gary Thomas’s comment about wanting the good parts of our marriage, but we want to run from the pain. And, uh, no one complains about the good times of marriage. We all enjoy that even though we didn’t do anything to deserve the good parts. It’s much harder to see how God is using our marital challenges to draw us closer to Him. And so, we’ve asked Gary Thomas back for a second day to help us understand more completely this concept of how God wants to use your marriage to make you holy more than to make you happy.
John: Yeah. And if you missed the last program, the first part of this conversation, download it or get the CD from us at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. You can also make a donation while you’re there to allow us to continue making strong marriages possible through programs like this one.
Jim: Gary Thomas is the author of a number of books including the bestseller Sacred Marriage which gives us the basis for the discussion today. Gary and Lisa have been married for more than 30 years and have three adult children. They live in Houston, Texas where Gary is a writer-in-residence at Second Baptist Church. Gary, let me say welcome back to Focus on the Family.
Gary: Thank you.
Jim: Gary, you know, there’s a common statement we’re going to hear, even from Christians, where people think that if their marriage is hard, they must have picked the wrong person. And, uh, you put that in context, where there’s day after day, grinding friction and we’re just not on the same page and “I’m more mature than this other person spiritually” or whatever might be said in the quietness of one’s heart. Talk directly to that lie, that I believe’s coming right from the enemy of our soul to say, “You didn’t pick the right person and that’s why your marriage is in such a mess.”
Gary: It – it’s one of the most brutal and effective lies that Satan, I believe, has told to this generation, that if we picked the right person, marriage is supposed to be easy. And I think when – when Sacred Marriage first came out, those were the two things that resonated with so many people. The one that we’ve talked about, how God designed marriage to make us holy, even more than to make us happy. But the other thing that created some conversation has been fodder for bloggers and whatnot is, this notion that marriage is difficult. And I was even asked to debate on this last year when they had a national conference and somebody said, “We don’t want to overstress it” and what not. So, preparing for that debate, I thought I’m gonna get a little ammunition here. So, I was speaking at a conference where there were 1,000 people, 500 married couples. Had ‘em all stand up. I said, “I want you to remain standing if your marriage proved to be easier than you thought it would be.” Five couples were left standing. Now I’m a English major, but I can still do that math, five out of 500; that’s 1 percent. But it’s actually less than that, because afterwards, a couple spoke to my wife and myself and said, “Gary, we have a confession to make.” And I said, “What’s that?” “Well, we’re one of the couples that stood up.” I said, “ So, it wasn’t true?” “No, it’s true, but we’ve only been married 10 days.”
Gary: So, it – it’s probably less than 1 percent. And I say this not to scare off the singles, but to help the married people to not freak out. When your marriage proves to be difficult, the cultural mind-set is, you must have picked the wrong person. If your marriage is difficult, it just means your spouse is still alive. We talked in the previous broadcast about how we all stumble in many ways. That’s James 3:2. It can’t be easy to be married to somebody who stumbles, not just occasionally, but the Bible says, “in many ways.” We shouldn’t expect it to be easy. And then you have little people. You create kids who stumble in many ways. That’s not supposed to be easy, but here’s why I’m not shy from mentioning that. The best things in life are usually really difficult. I’m not musical, but I love music. But I know it’s hard. I’ve seen stories. I’ve talked to people, the – the blisters, of the callouses they have to get, the years of practice to master a piece. And yet, music hits me like almost nothing else. I’m so glad people go through that difficulty. Getting a degree where you’re studying or something can be so difficult to do, but it’s a glorious thing when you’ve got it done. And so, I think of this every time I watch the Olympics, every four years. You know, all of the struggles, all of the practice and yet, we all revel in it, because we see somebody operating at such a high level. Becoming like Christ isn’t easy. Two people building a family together, building a marriage together, conquering their selfishness, conquering their fears, opening up to intimacy and then becoming one, it’s a glorious thing. It’s a wonderful thing. It feels transcendent, but it’s not easy. We have to die to the sin that pushes us apart. We have to die to the addictions, because we’ll cherish the addictions instead of each other and we have to learn to be understanding and want to serve each other. Those – none of us do any of that naturally. That’s supernatural. But if we know it’s difficult going in, then when we start to sweat, when we start to get frustrated, when we start to get tired, instead of freaking out, we just double down. This is the road I have to travel to get to a really good place.
Jim: Gary, I appreciate that ballast, to look at our spouse in a way that isn’t negative, but positive even if he or she is causing us pain. That takes a mature person. In fact, some people feel like their spouse may be holding them back from achieving something greater in their life, that it’s if I had a better spouse, we’d be in a different place in this life. And in the book, I think he you use Abraham Lincoln as an example, and I love that. We’re often thinking of Abraham Lincoln purely in a political context, keeping the country together and, you know, getting through the Civil War and the leadership that he provided. But you kinda peel that back and talk about his relationship with his wife. What did you see there that gave you a different perspective?
Gary: There was a poll on CSPAN that ranked our nation’s most effective Presidents, and, in that poll, Abraham Lincoln was chosen as our most effective President ever. But what caught my eye is, I’d seen a different poll that ranked the First Ladies and guess who was at the very bottom.
Jim: Mary Todd.
Gary: Mary Todd Lincoln. She was by all accounts an extremely contentious woman. Reckless with their spending and a vicious temper. She’d had an argument with Lincoln. She just couldn’t let it go. She could come in and he’d be talking to heads of state. She would throw a drink in his face and just walk out and he’s trying to do these delicate negotiations and he’s got this wife who ultimately literally was confined to an insane asylum at the end of her life. So – so, she was flipping. And yet, Lincoln was as committed to her as a husband could be.
Gary: One salesman was so appalled at the way he had been treated by Mary, he went up to the Oval Office to complain. Now you can imagine it was a different day when you could literally knock on the door of the Oval Office, but you could back then. And so, he did and Lincoln invited him in and the man listed his complaint. Lincoln just nodded knowingly, and he finally stands up, puts his hand on the man’s shoulders and said, “You can endure for 15 minutes what I have endured for 15 years.”
Gary: And essentially what he’s saying is, “I know what you’re saying is true, but guess what? You get to leave here today. I’m gonna stay and be married to this woman.” And then I look back and see how in providence, God might have presented this marriage to Lincoln to help him get ready. Because we often look at Lincoln now with the understanding of hindsight. But when Lincoln was negotiating the Civil War, he was about as unpopular a politician as there had ever been. He was lambasted by the editorials. He was called things that are just abhorrent today, that I wouldn’t even mention on the radio right now. In fact, even at some of the moments when he shined the brightest, when he delivered The Gettysburg Address, one editor scoffed at him and said, “Let the dead go bury the dead,” thinking he’s politically dead, so yeah, he should just go bury dead people, because he has no political future. And Lincoln thought he was politically dead, as well. They found in his papers after he’d been assassinated, where he had made plans. If – this was in 1864 when he had the re-election coming up and he admitted in his journal, “I don’t see any way that I’m going to be re-elected as President.” But Lincoln had this mystical sense that God had created him with this mission, to preserve the experiment called “democracy.” It was being tested. There was by no means guaranteed. And so, I look back and I could see God’s providence. How does a man keep persevering, saying “We’re gonna fight this way to an end. It’s gonna cost me re-election. People ridicule me. They call me a murderer, a butcher.” All of this. Where does a man get that tenacity, that commitment, that perseverance to keep fighting a war that’s made him so unpopular? And – and it’s my theory that a man who would quit on a difficult marriage would probably quit on a difficult vocational challenge. In fact, I could almost see God looking ahead in His providence saying, “How do I get Abraham Lincoln ready? I know he’s going to be President. I know the country’s gonna go through a Civil War. How do I give him that character?” Hello, Mary.
Gary: You know, He brings this very contentious woman that any man would want to leave and yet, Lincoln was faithfully married to her. And the point is often that while God has a mission for every one of us. Sometimes our most difficult relationships are the very tools He uses to give us the character so we can succeed in that mission.
John: That’s a great story and a great perspective from Gary Thomas on today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we’re covering some of the content in Gary’s book, Sacred Marriage: What If God Designed Marriage to Make Us Holy More Than to Make Us Happy? And we’ll encourage you to get a copy of the book and, in fact, we’ll send that to you when you donate generously to Focus on the Family today.
Jim: Gary, in our wedding vows, we talk about what we want to do at the appropriate moment, for better or for worse, till death do us part, in sickness and in health. It’s almost like the corporate mottos. We’re here to serve you. Then you go to the window and say, “Hey, could you help me?” And they go, “No, that’s a different window.” We say these things, but do we really believe them? And when you look at the culture, this difference between a marriage license being a contract versus a covenant, let’s explore that a little, because a contract says, if you don’t perform up to my expectation as outlined in the – in the contract, then I get to break the contract. You have allowed me to walk away. We treat marriage today somewhat like that, in the fact that you have not kept me happy. Or you have not fulfilled my dreams. Or I am not feeling connected to you emotionally, therefore, you broke the contract and I’m walking away. It’s not what God is saying when it comes to marriage. Marriage is a covenant. Describe that that covenant is supposed to be like.
Gary: Let me give an example of how that played out in one marriage. Marti entered marriage with several long-term relationships that broke up, before she finally got married. And so, she had this notion in her mind, that that’s what a relationship is. You have infatuation. You have fun times. You go through difficult times. You break up and it’s awful. And so, she got married to a strong believer and they had some financial issues that came up and they just couldn’t agree, and the tension kept building. They went to counseling, everything. It just wasn’t resolved, and she found herself mourning the death of her marriage before it even happened, because that’s what had happened throughout her life. You have fun. Go through a difficult time. You break up and it’s awful. And she’s kind of mentally, was going there until one night her husband did something so wonderful, so Christian. He wrapped his arms around her, and he said, “Marti, you need to know, no matter what we decide or don’t decide, I’m never going to quit on this marriage. Even if we have to live with this tension for the rest of our lives, I will never leave you.” And as Marti recounted that to me, she had tears in her eyes and I asked her, “How did it get resolved?” And she almost laughed, saying, “I don’t remember.” What she remembers was her husband’s covenant faithfulness. Even if this is never resolved, we’re in this together. We will deal with this tension the rest of our lives.
Jim: And that’s such a picture of what the Lord has said to Israel in that context, the Old Testament, almost verbatim the same words. I’m not going to leave you, but you have really treated Me poorly. I mean, the Lord does say that at one point, that you’re – Israel is like a wayward child, you know, or a wayward spouse. Talk about that relationship. What is the Lord using that analogy in the Old Testament, what does He want us to understand about ourselves, our relationship with Him, how that needs to be a similar relationship to our spouse?
Gary: Yeah. This greatly broadened my understanding of marriage when I began to compare marriage to God’s relationship with Israel. And you see times with God’s relationship with Israel where you could almost call it infatuation. I think when Solomon dedicated the Temple, it’s like this infatuated love fest, where Israel is saying, “You’ll always be our God. We’ll only worship You.” And God is saying to Israel, “You’ll always be My people. I’ll always have a representative of David on the throne. If you ever sin, just pray toward this Temple. I’ll forgive your sins. I’ll make everything right.” It’s really that stage where both parties are thrilled to be in a relationship. But you don’t have to read far into the Old Testament to realize, it didn’t stay like that. There were times of anger and frustration when God would discipline Israel and Israel would be frustrated with God. And God would be justifiably angry with Israel. There were times of infidelity, in spite of Israel’s promise to be faithful, we know they were anything but. And it’s interesting, ‘cause in the old Testament, it doesn’t describe Israel as breaking some precept. It uses the language of adultery, that God felt like He was watching His wife chase after other lovers. And then there’s these excruciating seasons of silence. And so, you see times of infatuation and joy. You see times of frustration and anger, times of infidelity and excruciating seasons of silence. And you could describe most marriages along those four seasons. And what that helped me do, is it helped me appreciate all of marriage. Most of us get married for the times of joy and celebration and I’m thankful for those. We don’t deserve ‘em as much as we get ‘em. Those are wonderful parts of marriage. But this also taught me, there are other seasons of marriage, that while I would never choose them and while I won’t enjoy them, there are lessons to be learned. God is revealing Himself to me. He’s strengthening us. He’s taking us through a process and He’s helping us. One of my favorite verses on marriage some from this idea, 2 Thessalonians 3:5, “May the Lord direct your hearts into God’s love and Christ’s perseverance.” And you think about how Christ had to persevere. He was always misunderstood. His family misunderstood Him. His disciples misunderstood Him. The Pharisees misunderstood Him. Pilate and Herod misunderstood Him. Even John the Baptist said, “Are you really who I think You were?” I mean, even John the Baptist, you know, His closest one misunderstood Him and yet, Christ persevered.
Jim: Ah. Gary, that is such a good point and a deep point, and you know, so often we’re fixated on the action, when you talk about adultery. But there is something much deeper going on in the heart than the action and that’s what the Lord is getting after, isn’t He? I mean, even He – when He dealt with, uh, David, you know, the Scripture says that David’s heart was for God, yet he committed some big sins, like murder and adultery. But there was something in David’s recognition of his sin, in his repentance of that, that God admired, that even though you’re flawed, you know who I am, and I know who you are. And so, when you apply that to the modern-day situation, how do we better understand what’s really going on beneath the actions that we’re expressing that so disappoint certainly our spouses, but also God?
Gary: It’s key to understanding marriage in total and I would say to the singles listening to this broadcast, ‘cause I know a lot of singles still like to listen about marriage. The fact that marriage is a covenant should lead you to be very careful, thoughtful, deliberate and seek counsel about who you marry. Because you marry a person’s problems. In essence, you marry their addictions. You marry their past. You marry their issues. And because there isn’t a quick get-out-of-jail-free card provided in Scripture, you’ve gotta realize, is this the kind of person that I’m really willing to have that kind of love with? I can’t have that kind of commitment with any other person in my life. It’s a special commitment with one person, my wife. What it means in marriage is that I have to throw away this thought of what would it be like if I married someone else? Or if only my spouse wasn’t this way. Or – there are no “If only‘s.” There is, “I’m committed to this. I’m forgetting the thought of going somewhere else.” And saying, so how can I be fully invested and fully attentive. We need this tunnel vision. How do I make this work? That’s the difference between a covenant and a contract. A contract, how do I get out of it? A covenant is, there’s no getting out of it. But what it also means to spouses that might want to stray, is that we need to have this fear of ever doing anything that would break that covenant, that I would ever be unfaithful to my wife. There needs to be this holy reverence. This isn’t a contract that I can just break, make sure financially you’re taken care of and we’ll go our own way and say it was all said and done. We need to have this reverence where there is almost this holy horror that we would ever do anything that undercuts that, because this person has made such an unbelievable commitment, a covenant to us, the thought that we would ever be untrue to it should be horrifying to us.
Jim: Gary, we have talked a lot about the difficulty of marriage, what’s underneath some of those things, those behaviors that we’re expressing and how God wants to, for our good, to get in and help us live in a better and healthier way. Let’s talk about the rewards of perseverance and what God does intend for us. I love that John 10:10 Scripture where “the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy, but I have come that you might have life and life more abundantly.” Put that in the context of what we’re talking about with marriage.
Gary: The two huge benefits I think are this. The first is just, all that we’ve talked about, how God designed marriage to help us grow in holiness, is served by this notion of a covenant. I can be honest with my wife. I can be open with my wife. I can be vulnerable with my wife, because I know she’s gonna be there. I don’t have to hide from her, because she’s not going anywhere and so, I could admit my stuff and we can work on it together. And for the first time I’m not having to bear my burdens alone. There are a lot of married people listening to us today that are bearing their sins, their addictions, their temptations all on their own. That’s not what God wants of them. That’s not what we get to do. We get married to share these burdens. We go further when we share ‘em. So, for me it’s been so helpful just to have not just a wife in Christ, but a sister in Christ that I can do this with. But the second thing, this is what builds intimacy. There’s a fascinating study. It came out years ago that showed that couples that made it to their 35th wedding anniversary, had the same level of satisfaction as newlyweds. But this after marital satisfaction tends to drop for the first 20 years of marriage and it…
Jim: The first 20 years.
Gary: Well, there – there are bumps and challenges along the way, because you get married often with infatuation. That’s a high point. But when you’re infatuated, you don’t know each other. You’re not really one. It’s a dance. You’re hiding from each other. You’re covering things up. And then you have children. That often assaults marital intimacy, because you’re just tired and it’s challenging and there’s the little things you – you argue over. But by the 35th wedding anniversary, you have that same satisfaction as newlyweds, but now it’s even better, because you have shared memories. Your minds have formed around each other. Neurologically you’ve literally become one. Your brains have learned to give way to each other. Uh, putting it together, there’s another study that I found so interesting. They said, it takes from nine to 14 years for a couple to truly create and form its being.
Gary: What they’re saying is, it takes at least a decade to a decade and a half for two individuals to stop thinking of themselves as individuals and to start thinking of themselves as one. So, the journey from “me” to “we” is about 10 to 15 years.
Jim: Boy, that’s something.
Gary: And couples don’t often get there, which means when a couple gets divorced at seven to eight years in, they literally don’t know what it would be like to be truly married. They’re not one yet. Their brains are still forming around each other. Their brains are still becoming familiar with each other. It’s like they built the foundation of the house and maybe they even started to frame it, but they don’t know what it’d be like to be in a house that has the walls up, that has the roof, that has the windows in, that they can really enjoy. They’re saying, we’re getting rid of a relationship that isn’t even finished yet.
Gary: Because it just takes time for that intimacy to grow and that’s what a covenant offers, time for our brains to become one, time for us to get that inheritance of really sharing that intimacy of oneness that we all seek.
John: I really appreciate the conviction and the passion with which Gary Thomas speaks and he sure brought the message home today. Marriage requires you to put yourself aside and allow God to work on you through the relationship.
Jim: Well, and we have to remember that the whole purpose of marriage, in my opinion, is to make us more like Christ, more holy, more selfless. And it takes time for us to work toward that maturity, so we can change together, as Gary so eloquently said. And we know marriage can be a challenge. That’s normal. That’s being human. If you’re in a spot where you’re struggling and you don’t know what your next step is, call us here at Focus. We can help you. We have counselors who, man, they have been doing this for years. I doubt you’re going to surprise them with your circumstances. They’re that well-seasoned. And, uh, you can call and talk about what you’re feeling and what you’re going through.
John: Yeah. They’re so good. And we also have our outstanding Hope Restored marriage intensives for couples who are really in deeper trouble. The marriage is, perhaps, on the brink.
Jim: Yeah. Maybe you’ve reached what you think is the end of the line and you’re considering divorce. Maybe even signed the papers. Believe it or not, we can still help you. Many couples that come to Hope Restored are in that exact spot. But our research shows 4 out of 5 couples who go through Hope Restored are still married two years later, that’s 80 percent by the way, and have a much higher level of satisfaction in their marriage. Let me share with you what Jeff from Michigan told us after attending Hope Restored with his wife. He wrote: “We attended the intensive in Branson. And it was life changing. I was convinced that nothing could change what was going on in our marriage. I seriously considered not going the day before we were to leave. The counselors were amazing. They created the safest environment that could be. We are on a much different course now, and I believe we received a miracle that week. Thank you, Focus on the Family, for such a wonderfully eye-opening, life-changing experience.” Man…
John: Mm hmm. That’s tremendous.
Jim: …I love hearing how God is using Focus on the Family and you, those who are supporting us. Man, we couldn’t do this without you. We’re all in this together. And I know that this pandemic has shaken up a lot of families and many of them are suffering in many ways, but together we can find wisdom in Christ and bring healing to these couples as well. We’re here for you. We’re praying for you. Jean and I are starting almost every morning together praying for you, the support group at Focus, those who listen to the broadcast and listen to the podcast. It’s a great honor to have the time to do that right now and I want to also make you aware of a wonderful resource called [email protected] which is a free streaming service along with a 30 day free trial of Adventures in Odyssey Club for your children.
John: Yeah. Those are two very significant ways that we’re trying to step up and help out during these days and, uh, we continue to, of course, provide a help and hope through this daily broadcast and through Facebook Live events.
Jim: That’s right, John. And to keep all of this going, we need you. That’s the bottom line. As you can imagine, we’re seeing a growing need among families – especially young families which I’m really happy about. Uh, we’re also seeing a decrease in giving at the same time so, it’s one of those, um, you know, paradoxes. But God, we believe, will provide and, uh, you have the chance to be part of that and I believe we’re making the point, so just jump in. Let’s do this together. You know, eternity – and the Lord, He knows what’s happening. He knows you’re working hard and surviving and I’m sure supporting your local church which is the first thing you need to do. And with, um, you know, something that might be left over being able to support groups like Focus on the Family. So, thank you for that. Um, and – and I’m looking forward to the great impact that we’re doing together.
John: Join the support team. Make a gift if you can today and we’ll say thank you by a copy of the book we’ve talked about today by Gary Thomas called Sacred Marriage. Let me also add that right now there’s a matching grant opportunity. A gift of any amount gets doubled because of some generous friends who are wanting to really support the ministry in a significant way. So, join us today and know that your gift will be doubled, and you’ll also be getting that book from Gary Thomas for your own benefit or to pass along to one of your kids or somebody perhaps at church. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or online we’re at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.