Day One:
Dr. Sean McDowell: It’s okay to sit with questions. It’s good. Over and over again when I talk to people who’ve deconstructed their faith to the point of deconversion, I’m telling you, Jim, over and over and over again, what I hear is people saying, “I didn’t have room for questions in the church. My parents shot me down.”
John Fuller: Well, professor, author, and apologist, Sean McDowell is our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.
Jim Daly: You know, John, being aware of culture is so important. I mean, I like to engage the culture. I know the Lord tells me, especially in 2nd Timothy, Galatians, other places, when you do that, do it with grace, do it with love, do it with kindness, and I get all that. But it’s important for us as Christians to understand the culture that we’re in and what the Lord requires of us to proclaim truth, to love those around us, especially those that don’t know Him, so that we might crack their heart open to the possibility-
John: Hm-mm.
Jim: … that Jesus is who He said He is, and that He has a plan for your life as a non-believer. Right? That excites me. I think at the root, I am an evangelist.
John: You are, yes.
Jim: I love engaging people that don’t know the Lord, because in my experience, nobody is beyond the reach of God, not a single person. And we have to remember that ’cause there are people that cross your path and you’re going, “Really?”
John: Hm-mm.
Jim: “Lord, you could save that person? I don’t know.”
John: (Laughs). Hm-mm.
Jim: But let me tell you, uh, He’s got a compassion and a heart and a love for every part of His creation.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And today we’re gonna talk with a wonderful guest, Sean McDowell, whose dad, Josh McDowell, I’ve known for years.
John: Hm.
Jim: And, um, I’m always excited to talk to Sean about the culture. His new book, A Rebel’s Manifesto, is just another great resource for young people and parents and grandparents-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … to better understand the culture we’re in.
John: Yeah. And you can learn more about Dr. Sean McDowell and his great book. We’ve got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Sean, welcome back to Focus on the Family. It’s always good to have you.
Sean: Well, thanks for having me. This is a treat.
Jim: I love that, you know, here at Focus, we’re kind of concentrating on five core things, discipleship and evangelism.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Which I would put this under. Uh, also marriage, parenting, advocacy for children, and then engaging the culture.
Sean: Hm.
Jim: And, you know, your presence here today, you’re kind of hitting those two bookends for us, discipleship and culture. And in that context, uh, culture is changing, it feels like. Now every generation-
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … I mean, you and your dad must have these conversations.
Sean: (Laughs).
Jim: Josh was the guy for evangelism through the ’70s and ’80s. And, you know, I’m so grateful that he wrote, uh, Evidence that Demands a Verdict.
Sean: Hm.
Jim: That became super important to me in college. It kind of rooted me to go against my professors who were belittling me for being a Christian at a state school.
Sean: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, just pass that along to him. That meant the world to me. It gave me additional foundation, uh, to really support me there. But when you look at it, is it any different? Is there- there’s nothing new under the sun. Is it harder today or is it just our perception that it’s harder today because we’re the adults in the room now?
Sean: Well, so one issue that’s really prevalent is the issue of just mental health, depression-
Jim: That’s a big one.
Sean: … anxiety and loneliness. 73% of 18 to 22 year olds will say that they sometimes or always feel lonely. Now, there’s between sometimes and always is significant, but this is generation that many times describes themselves as the loneliest generation. Now, one reason might be that we hear about this all the time. So this, this generation is more likely to interpret depression or anxiety as some kind of phenomena tied to who they are, as previous generations would just kind of say, “Well, I’m having a bad day.” So that’s a piece of it. But I really do think there’s a loneliness and there’s a pain, and there’s a hurt in this generation that is different from previous generations. I mean, I, I had a chance to interview Stuart and Cliffe Knechtle. And Cliffe has been on college campuses since the ’80s, doing a lot what my dad does, just debating and talking with non-Christians. And I asked him the same question, and he said to me, he goes, he goes, “Sean, the questions are the same about does God exist? Why is there evil in the world? Who is Jesus? Is there life after death? But the difference today is there’s just so much hurt and pain and brokenness that it shapes how this generation processes the truth.” And that’s exactly my experience as well.
Jim: You know, Sean, when you look at the spiritual connotation of this, I’m, you know, the first scripture somebody ever shared with me when I first became a believer at 15 was John 10:10.
Sean: Mm.
Jim: Now, if you don’t know the Scripture, and you’re not coming from a Christian family like me, I mean, give us a little more reference ’cause there’s a lot of Johns in the Bible. There’s John, there’s 1st John, 2nd John, 3rd John. I was going, okay, which John is it? But I found it, John 10:10.
Sean: Hm-mm.
Jim: “The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy.”
Sean: Mm.
Jim: When you look at that application, uh, sometimes we can over-complicate something so simple and right in our face.
Sean: Mm.
Jim: The enemy of our soul is coming to steal, kill, and destroy God’s work in our life.
Sean: Hm.
Jim: The abundance that He provides for us, the way, the truth and the life.
Sean: Hm-mm.
Jim: So that’s his reason for existence, is to destroy us and our relationship with God. In that context, when you look at what technology is doing, the loneliness factor, all the things that you’re talking about, when you put that spiritual lens on is, is he being that successful?
Sean: Well, I’m not anti technology. I love my smartphone. I use it. I don’t think technology’s bad, but we often don’t think about how technology affects us, how technology affects our discernment of truth, how technology affects our relationships. And oftentimes just with students, I’ll ask them this question, I’ll say, “Do you think smartphones are good or bad?” And they’re not quite sure what to do with that. I’ll say, “Well, take a car. It’s not, it’s actually good, but it can be used for bad.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Sean: “But think about how much a car changed the way we experience the world, how much further we can go. How does a smartphone change the way you think about God?”
John: Mm.
Sean: “How does it change the way you relate to somebody sitting next to you?” And I found that with students just asking those questions, helping them process it, because yes, Satan is using it as a tool. Now we’re using technology here, hopefully for good to spread the truth. But Satan can use the very same technology and is using it through social media having a huge influence on the lives of this generation.
Jim: Yeah. Let me parlay that into the discussion. Of course, you’re a trained professor and you can have those discussions and feel confident about those discussions. You’ve read a lot, you’ve learned a lot and you should be the, probably the smartest guy in the room at Biola, maybe not always.
Sean: Depends on the room.
Jim: Some of your students seem pretty good. But you know, for the average parent, for example, or maybe even a grandparent, and you’re talking to your 15, 16-year-old about deep concepts.
Sean: Hm.
Jim: You want to have those conversations. And I, I’m just reminded of Charlie Brown, you know.
Sean: (Laughs).
Jim: Remember the adult, “Wah, wah, wah, wah.” And to your point, uh, the entertainment industry packages their persuasion in such, uh-
Sean: They do.
Jim: … bite-sized forms in influential ways and storytelling is powerful.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And here we come along, kind of the clunky parent trying to tell our kids about what the Bible has to say about truth. And it’s probably not as sophisticated or dry or, you know, whatever.
Sean: Hm.
Jim: However they’re, the kids are translating that. How do we be become more effective as parents to really bring up issues like cancel culture, what’s really true, what’s really at stake, think about it this way, without kind of impugning that burgeoning, uh, child and their freedom and their independence as a 15, 16-year-old.
Sean: It- it-
Jim: Does that all make sense? Right?
Sean: Yeah.
Jim: Okay.
Sean: This, this is an important question. I think the data shows, and this is based on Christian Smith, a sociologist at the University of Notre Dame, that sense, going back at least to 1972, parents have the most significant influence on the life and beliefs of their kids. Not Hollywood, not Netflix, not Disney, not social media.
Jim: That’s hard to believe, but it’s true.
Sean: It is true. It’s consistently- now that doesn’t mean those other factors aren’t significant. They are. But parents by default have the most influence over their kids, so start there. How do we have influence? Well, the most important thing, if you wanna speak in your kids’ life, is to build relationships with your kids. Hands-down. Intimate, close, caring relationships. And we could talk about what it takes. You guys do that better than anybody, what it means to build those relationships. But they’re not gonna listen to you for the most part if you don’t have a relationship. The other thing is you gotta pick the right time and the right place. So I’ve learned with my kids, just one example that pops to mind, after sporting events. My son, he’s playing basketball at Biola, which is fun. The moment before we get in the car, he wants to talk about the game. “Dad, how’d I do? What’d you think about this play?” My daughter does not want to talk about volleyball. She needs time to process it. And if we try to talk about it, she’s going to get more and more frustrated. So we just learn that our kids have different wirings, different interests. Is it morning? Is it night? Is it when they’re in the middle of video games? Probably not. Is it right when they walk home from school? Maybe not. You gotta find the right time and you gotta right, find the right place. And I’ve also found just asking questions is the best way to engage kids. Not gotcha questions, but genuine, sincere, interested questions. I found when I do that, for the most part, my kids are interested in having those kind of conversations with me.
Jim: You know, in that context, again, I don’t want parents to miss this, the mechanism of what that is doing. I mean, that is very much what Jesus did with parables.
John: Mm-hmm.
Sean: That’s right.
Jim: He would ask a question, uh, to the woman at the well, to those ready to stone the woman caught in adultery, you know, “Who’s without sin?”
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: There’s a game-stopper.
Sean: Hm-mm.
Jim: But the point of that, speak to the mechanism of that ’cause again, we can over-complicate it. Why is Jesus giving us that example of asking questions not only of our children, but of everybody around us? What does it do mentally, intellectually, with that person we’re asking the question of?
Sean: In the Gospels and Acts, we have 340 questions that Jesus asked. In Paul’s letters, there’s 262. There’s 3,000 questions roughly in the Bible. The God who made our brains, made our brains to respond to stories and parables, like you said, also to questions. I mean, a, a statement doesn’t invite reflection. It almost, it can create a sense of defensiveness. A question invites conversation. Depending on how you ask it, it can also show a level of humility and interest, and it just invites the other person to think and reflect.
Jim: Hm.
Sean: So it’s actually a skill to learn. I talk about, my wife and I talk about this a lot, and I listen to people, interviewers who ask good questions. And I’m always thinking, “Why did Jesus ask that question there? Why didn’t He ask a different question?” It’s a skill to learn, and it’s the single best way, I think, for evangelism to talk to our kids. I even asked with my wife, I think, “What questions have I not asked my wife to unlock certain things about our relationship that I’ve never thought of before?”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Sean: Questions, questions, questions.
Jim: You know, it’s so funny, I’m filling out a grant proposal for Focus and the grantor, they wanted me to answer a question, which is, if you could ask God one question, what would it be?
Sean: Wow.
Jim: I mean-
Sean: That’s interesting. Yeah.
Jim: But it’s a good question. But I, I just feel like we sometimes can get wrapped around the grievance of questions, too.
Sean: Hm.
Jim: You know, Lord, why did this happen to me? Really?
Sean: And, and you know what? It’s okay to sit with questions. It’s good. Over and over again, when I talk to people who’ve deconstructed their faith to the point of deconversion, I’m telling you, Jim, over and over and over again, what I hear is people saying, “I didn’t have room for questions in the church. My parents shot me down. My pastor just told me what to believe. He said, ‘Well, just read the Bible and pray.'”
Jim: That’s fair. That’s a fair criticism.
Sean: And, and I hear it a lot.
Jim: Yeah.
Sean: I thank God in my family, that my, my dad would like, was not threatened by questions. He would ask us questions. He wouldn’t give us simple answers. He wanted to teach us how to think and how to reflect. So that’s another thing questions do. And by the way, the older I get, the more questions I have for God, not less.
Jim: (Laughs).
Sean: And you said earlier, I’m supposed to be the smartest person in the room, not remotely in comparison with the faculty at Biola and Talbot. Are you kidding me? But the older I get, the more I, I actually realize I don’t understand, and the more questions I have, and that’s okay and that’s good with faith.
Jim: Mm.
Sean: And by asking questions you help a young person understand you can believe and follow God and not have it all figured out.
Jim: Fair enough.
John: Well, we have Sean McDowell on the show today. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we’re so glad that he’s here unpacking, uh, some of the content in his terrific book, A Rebel’s Manifesto: Choosing Truth, Real Justice and Love Amid the Noise of Today’s World. Uh, get a copy of this great book from us here at the ministry. We’ve got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And Sean, I’m, I’m thinking about a couple of my kids who aren’t exactly, we’ll say, closely walking with the Lord right now.
Sean: Mm.
John: Um, as I have conversations with them, I love this theme of questions. What are some questions I can ask them that won’t get into triggering them or, or causing them to say, “Well, you’re just in lecture mode again, Dad.” So how do I unpack kind of a worldview? What, what are you thinking? What are you building your life on without trying to slip in, you know, some of what they already know I believe?
Sean: Obviously you’re not implying this, but sometimes people think if I just ask the right question, I, it’s a trick to get my kids to come back to believe what I want them to. That sometimes people ask the question, that spirit. I think the real beginning of a good question is the motivation and the heart behind it, which I know you wanna love your kids.
John: I’m curious about that, yeah.
Sean: And you, and you, you’re curious is exactly the right word.
John: Okay.
Sean: A lot of my own interviews, I wanna be charitable, and I also am curious. That’s what motivates me though. So if somebody’s just curious, they’re gonna come up with a question that’s not a gotcha question. So not knowing the backstory, obviously here, some things come to mind. Say, you know, you grew up in a Christian home. Tell me about the first time you started to have questions. What were those questions? Who did you go to with those questions? What are some ways I responded that you appreciate? What are some ways, if I could rewind the clock and maybe respond differently, you would’ve wanted me to respond differently?
John: Mm-hmm.
Sean: What questions do you have now about God?
John: Hm.
Sean: How much do you think about God? In your mind, knowing that your dad is a committed, outspoken Christian, what do you think it looks like for me to love you at this stage in your life?
John: Mm-hmm. Wow.
Sean: These are the kinds of questions that are interesting to me. And you don’t have to agree with them, but this shows humility, it shows curiosity, it shows kindness.
John: Hm-mm.
Sean: And you know what? Sometimes when we’re parents, I’ve asked my kids some questions where I make myself vulnerable, and sometimes they’re like, “Whew, that’s the answer I was hoping for.” Other times I’m like, “Okay, that was painful.”
John: Hm. Yeah.
Sean: Like I really needed to hear that. I’d almost rather not hear it, but the only way I can love you is by hearing that.
John: Yeah.
Sean: And adjusting.
Jim: Uh, Sean, one of the things when you said curiosity, that’s the word. The experience that I’ve had is that the one that is damaging is curiosity with an agenda. If I could say it that way, because I’ve had those questions asked, and I know the person is asking a question. It’s like a salesman, right?
John: Hm.
Jim: It’s like you want that in red or blue. I think that’s a big distinction, uh, when you are talking with people. Don’t go into that conversation with a preferred outcome that you want. ‘Cause that is felt, it is smelt, uh, especially a teenager. Oh my gosh, can they sniff that out a mile away.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we need to have that artfulness to be able to be interested without that agenda. You’ll have far more good conversations with your teens, I think.
Sean: I, I think I might say that if you have curiosity with an agenda, I’m not sure how much curiosity you really have.
Jim: Correct. It gets overrun.
Sean: It’s-
Jim: It’s like a plant and a weed (laughs).
Sean: It’s like- Yeah. It’s like selective, seeking an answer to, you know, get the outcome you want.
Jim: Yeah. And frankly, I don’t think that’s godly really.
Sean: Mm.
Jim: In my opinion.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Uh, let, let’s move in example.
Sean: Okay.
Jim: Because folks love examples. You and your son decided and agreed upon going and seeing the Freddie Mercury biography.
Sean: Oh yeah (laughs).
Jim: Uh, I, I think it was Bohemian Rhapsody.
Sean: Right.
Jim: I saw that movie.
Sean: Yeah.
Jim: Not with my son, but my son saw it as well. So we had a very similar conversation. But what was your, uh, takeaway going with your son and what was the discussion like?
Sean: Yeah, that movie was probably about seven years ago or so. So my son, who’s now 21 was 14. It’s PG-13. He goes, “Hey, Dad, I’m just really interested in seeing this movie.” And I, of course, I asked him why that movie and why does it interest you? And, and I thought, “You know what? It’s PG-13, so it’s, it’s not R but there’s, there’s some ideas in this I don’t love.” So I said to him, and I talked to his mom about it. I said, “What do you think if we go to this movie and I’ll pay, you know, $100 plus for popcorn and tickets these days, if when we’re done, you just talk to me about it. Tell me what you think. Tell me what you saw and reflect on it.” He goes, “Sure, Dad.” So we go to the movie, we came back and we probably sat down for a half an hour or so at our dinner table. And I just remember asking questions like, “Hey, tell me what you thought. Is that what you expected? Uh, what surprised you most in the movie? What was your favorite scene? Which character were you drawn to?” Then I said, I always start positive, “Were there things in the movie as Christians we can celebrate and we can agree with? Are there any ideas that are actually biblical in this film?” Then I said, “Are there any ideas in this film that should give us pause? Did you ever feel like you were being preached at in this movie?” And he drew it out and we just talked about it. And so the idea was, look, faith is really best passed on in conversation like that in relationship. I just had to ask questions and then at times weigh in with my reflection. That’s what I try to do with my kids when I can.
Jim: Yeah. You know, in the culture right now, and getting back to your book, A Rebel’s Manifesto, part of this that I’ve seen, and I, I fall prey to this. I think it’s human nature to be accepted, to be liked, all those kinds of things.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Especially people people.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But one of the things that seems to have the gravitas in the culture today is tolerance.
Sean: Mm.
Jim: Like if you talk about what is a religion of the day, tolerating everybody’s perspective is kind of like the measure of a good person, good people, bad people.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I, I’m just curious about that. When we look at, uh, what are the qualities that knight you a good person, and then a bad person.
Sean: Hm.
Jim: And how do we as Christians stand in the wave of the culture moving downstream and say, “Wait a minute, we’re gonna destroy marriage. If we destroy marriage as a man and a woman, we’re gonna harm the culture because children will be brought up in homes that don’t have a mother and a father.”
Sean: Hm.
Jim: Both of which bring great attributes to a child’s learning and capability and, you know, emotional wellbeing, that’s all proven by science. All the research states that, and nobody wants to listen to it.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.
Sean: (Laughs).
Jim: So how, how do we teach our kids not to be swept away in that cultural tide?
Sean: Mm-hmm. So you and I, and probably most of listeners or, or viewers, watched this cultural shift from the outside. We observed it happening. This generation, especially Gen Z, has grown up within it. They feel it. It’s not just an academic experience for them. They feel like what if I don’t use the preferred pronouns? What if I stand firm in this? I’m going to be called bigoted and hateful and maybe homophobic. So it’s very personal to them in a different fashion. What I wanna do is I wanna, I wanna help students see where culture gets certain things right and where culture gets certain things wrong. So without going into too much depth, I think in, in the MCU Marvel movies the climax with Infinity War and End Game, there’s an example of culture getting love right. Meaning there, there all these movies, billions of dollars, climax with a question, what is the ultimate hero? And it’s Iron Man willingly laying down his life as a sacrifice to save half the universe. That’s a very gospel-type message. So I’ll point with this generation. I’ll say, “You know what? ’cause they’re made in the image of God. Sometimes people understand that’s what real love is. Other times in our culture, love equals affirmation. If I don’t affirm how you view yourself or how you feel, you’re bigoted and hateful and intolerant.” So I wanna unpack that with students and say, “Is it always loving to affirm how somebody feels or is it loving at time actually to resist what somebody feels?”
Jim: Hm.
Sean: And intuitively we know that’s what love does. That’s what it means to be a parent. But this generation has been so pressed with this false idea of love, we just gotta take a step back, help him look at it, and then of course, look at the example of Jesus. Right? He lays down His life, but He also called out sin and He called out evil when He saw it. So I think on our hearts, we know what love is, this generation does. It’s just a matter of unpacking some of the lies and confusions in this culture and helping them see what their heart really knows is true.
Jim: Uh, Sean, let’s end here. Um, one of the big debates, and I see this, Charlie Kirk is on this all the time.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But, uh, this idea that Jesus said, “Judge not lest you be judged.”
Sean: Mm.
Jim: And then there’s a reference to Paul occasionally too, where people will cite him saying, you know, “Don’t judge the world. The father will judge the world, but judge one another in the church,” basically. That’s the paraphrase.
Sean: Mm.
Jim: So when you get that response from the quasi, let say quasi believer, whatever that might mean, someone who’s not fully, uh, convictional toward Christ, but the person that he doesn’t want to judge others. Because I mean, that’s, that’s not what our role is. And we shouldn’t be harsh on the world or communities that differ with us. How do we process that scripture, “Judge not?” Should we just never think about it or speak of it, but give us some definition so we’re healthier.
Sean: (Laughs) Whenever you hear a Bible verse, the best strategies to go back to the context and ask how is it being used there? So of course, judge not lest you be judged is in Matthew 7 in the Sermon on the Mount. And interestingly enough, Jesus says, “You gotta take the plank out of your own eye before you take the speck out of another.” Why? So then you can make a right judgment. He’s not saying don’t make moral judgments. He’s saying, “You better judge yourself first with the same standard by which you judge others.” Of course, that’s why in John 7:24, Jesus says, “Make a righteous judgment.” So there are some kind of judgments we’re supposed to make and some kind of judgments we’re not supposed to make. So I’m not supposed to judge somebody’s heart. Right? This is 1st Samuel 16:7, “Man looks at the outward appearance, but God judges the heart.” I cannot assess somebody’s spiritual state with perfect clarity and assess their heart. God is the one who’s ultimately going to do that. But if you go back to Matthew 7 in the Sermon of the Mount, in that same passage He talks about recognizing false prophets, and you’ll know them by their fruit. Well, that’s a kind of judgment that you’re supposed to make.
Jim: Yeah.
Sean: So we’ve gotta clarify what judges we make, what judgments we don’t make. And there is a certain sense, and 1st Corinthians 2, where we have accountability and judgment within the church and church discipline that we don’t have with outsiders. There’s a different standard that is there. But yeah, of course we’re supposed to make judgments.
Jim: And certainly be willing to point to those things, again, with the goal of trying to point people toward Christ.
Sean: Amen.
Jim: I mean, that’s the goal. And we can’t stop doing that ’cause the Holy Spirit, what is He gonna be able to use if people feel no conviction about anything? Right? Including ourselves, maybe first and foremost with ourselves.
Sean: Hm-mm.
Jim: So Sean, this has been great. Thanks. Let’s come back next time.
Sean: Let’s do it.
Jim: And keep the discussion going. What a wonderful book, A Rebels Manifesto: Choosing Truth, Real Justice and Love Amid the Noise of Today’s World. That says it all. It is one of the resources you really need to go through with your teen and 20 something. I’m looking forward to providing it to my two boys so they can get a read of it. And, uh, that’s how you build in, uh, Christian faith within your kids, your grandkids. So get a copy from us. Uh, you, we can do that in a great way. Just make a gift of any amount. A monthly gift is wonderful. One time gift is good too. But just send that gift and we’ll send a copy of Sean’s book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Call today, donate as you can. Uh, our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And of course, we have the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And Jim, this ties right in to something that, uh, we’re very excited about coming up very soon.
Jim: I’m super excited. Uh, we were just on it. Uh, we came up with a concept of doing a follow on to the Truth project, which a lot of people, uh, participated, millions of people participated in. It’s called Truth Rising. And we’ve gone out to the cultural voices to say, “What are you noticing?” Some Christian, some non-Christian and uh, people that are also just leaders are saying something’s wrong in Western civilization. And the core truth of it is, is that we’re putting the wrong fuel in the engines of democracy. And these folks, uh, kind of help us better understand what that fuel needs to be. And it’s Judeo-Christian values.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: How do we base the flourishing of a culture on anything else? The engine sputters with the things that we’re trying right now. And I think people, it’s a 90-minute documentary, it’s gonna release in September. Sean, this is right up your alley. You’re gonna love this.
Sean: Oh man. I can’t wait to see it.
Jim: (Laughs).
Sean: Let me know. I wanna spread the word.
Jim: Yeah. It’s gonna be really, really good. And I’m looking forward to it.
John: Yeah. And you can sign up to watch the premiere of Truth Rising when it comes out on September 5th, uh, all for free at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Well, on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Preview:
Dr. Sean McDowell: Kindness and common ground can go such a long ways towards just having walls go down and real conversation, you know, beginning. That’s why in conversation with people, rather than focusing on differences, I’m looking for areas of common ground that we have.
End of Preview
John Fuller: Dr. Sean McDowell is back with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, talking about grace and truth and about engaging the culture well. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, last time we had a great conversation with Sean McDowell, and I so enjoy when he comes. And his father, of course, Josh McDowell, was influential in my life-
John: Me too, as well. Yeah.
Jim: … and really made a difference when I was in high school and college, and kinda gave me the undergirding beyond the scripture with Evidence That Demands a Verdict. What a great book that was-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and is if you haven’t, uh, read that or have that on your shelf, you should order it. Evidence That Demands a Verdict.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, helped me in college going to state school. It helped me defend my faith and kind of parry the professors who were really coming after me because I would talk about my faith in Christ.
John: Mm.
Jim: They would belittle me. “That’s a fairy tale. If you’re a college student, you shouldn’t believe that stuff.” I mean, it was horrific.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, Josh really did a great job in helping me, and I’m probably one of literally millions of people-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that his, his writing and his input, uh, made a difference in their lives. Uh, but we wanna talk about how to speak to your teens, especially, but also 20-somethings. It applies to any young person in your life, really. So let’s get into it with Sean and, uh, continue our great discussion on these great topics.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can learn more about Sean, but he’s, uh, a professor at Biola University. Uh, he’s the father of three. He has written and spoken and, uh, recorded a variety of things along the way. He’s energetic and passionate. We’re so glad to have him. Uh, the book that we’re really gonna be covering a little bit of is called A Rebel’s Manifesto: Choosing Truth, Real Justice, and Love Amid the Noise of Today’s World. Great book. Get a copy from us here at the ministry. Uh, you’ll find it at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Sean, welcome back.
Sean: Good to be back. Thanks.
Jim: Good to see you, of course. Let’s, uh, kick it off with the spicy stuff.
Sean: (laughs)
Jim: Now, I don’t think we need a PG-13 warning here, but, uh, you know, this issue, let me just describe it as physical intimacy-
Sean: Mm.
Jim: … if there’s other younger ears nearby, but you kn- you know, the way that the world has distorted this, you know, God, number one, he created it for us.
Sean: Amen.
Jim: It’s the wedding present. I mean, this is the good gift from God. And then, of course, the enemy in our own flesh comes along and distorts it, and we are so bombarded with it. I mean, Jean and I, we won’t go to Vegas.
Sean: Mm.
Jim: We don’t like driving the kids, you know, especially when they were like 8, 9, 10, 12. Just the billboards.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, you have to get into a whole explanation about what you’re seeing on a billboard, right?
Sean: (laughs)
Jim: So Jean was like, “Can we just avoid going there?” And, uh, it, it’s kind of, you might say radical approach, but as parents of young children and teens, we’ve gotta be so on our toes about how to help our children process this. And here’s the presumption. It’s not if, it’s gonna be when-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … our kids are exposed to this and then be ready. How do you, how do you describe that? How would you coach parents to say, “Okay. This is how you got the attitude you need. This is what you need to say,” et cetera.
Sean: Well, the first thing I would encourage parents with is, and maybe I’d just remind them that none of us are perfect parents, and none of us have a right to talk to our kids because we did everything right. Obviously, none of us did. So if what’s holding you back from talking with their kid about sexuality because, “I made this mistake, or I fell short here,” experience God’s grace and realize your kids don’t expect you to be perfect. Just having the conversation is a win in itself. I met a young man, his dad was actually a pastor, and he was in his 20s, and he was just, the way he described it, an egregious sexual sin. He goes, “My dad just never talked to me about this.”
Jim: Mm.
Sean: It was a taboo topic.
Jim: Yeah.
Sean: So if it never comes up, you’re going to take your script probably from somewhere in the world. My approach is actually it starts early in the sense that the, a, a kid’s worldview about sexuality I think starts implicitly probably from the moment they come outside of the womb. The tenderness with which we talk to kids, touching them appropriately as a child, teaches them comfort with their bodies. It is not a one-time talk when kids turn 12. (laughs)
Jim: Right.
Sean: That’s way too late. It’s an ongoing conversation throughout the rhythm of life, typically, when opportunities arise to just speak into our kids in age appropriate ways. It’s not the talk. It’s multiple talks.
John: Mm.
Sean: And when is as early as possible. (laughs)
Jim: Yeah. We have a great tool, Launch into the Teen Years. You know, it kinda replaced the Preparing for Adolescence-
Sean: Mm.
Jim: … and that, that one-time talk that so many before us-
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … uh, created. But it’s that idea of start young and you drip irrigate on this issue of sexuality and what it means in God’s design for reproduction and all those things.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But let me ask you this, Sean, and you can get ahold of us for Launch into the Teen Years-
John: Yeah.
Jim: … and we’ll get that out to you.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But, uh, e- e- the twisting of God’s design.
Sean: Mm.
Jim: Uh, y- we have to be straight and truthful and honest about what’s going on. The LGBTQ community and the agenda that they represent has done a number on traditional values, traditional definitions of marriage, relationship, et cetera, gender. I mean, it’s a flame right now, right-
Sean: Mm.
Jim: … in terms of, “Who are you to tell me what gender I am?” And we’re seeing all the manifestations of that. Um, you had an example, which I think was really good of a classmate. I don’t know if you were the high school teacher at this point, but this classmate that befriended an LGBT, uh, classmate. Uh, uh, w- what did she do that made a difference and how did that relationship develop?
Sean: Well, this is a daughter of a friend of mine, and I, I’m pretty sure you would know who this is as well. And he’s had conversations with his daughter early on about God’s design for sexuality, built a relationship with her. I mean, he parented her. I, I think, you know, amazingly. And when she was in high school, she befriended a young man who was gay. Just a platonic, friendly relationship. And part of her motivation was just, “How do I love my neighbor and, and people who see the world differently?” And so they’d study together. They’d watch movies together. They would just spend time together as friends. And my buddy’s quite the evangelist and so his, her friend was over and he said something to effect of, you know, “Hey, son, so tell me what you think spiritually. What do you think about Jesus?” I mean, he just cuts (laughs) right to the chase. And his response in some effect was, “I, I don’t know that I’m there. I’m not sure that I believe, but I’m thinking about it, and if I were to get there, it would be because of someone like your daughter.”
Jim: Mm.
Sean: Now, if you’re a parent, that’s like a mic drop moment.
Jim: Oh, yeah.
Sean: You can just call it, you know, that’s the greatest, you know, compliment you could get. But I thought it, it shows the power of relationships, shows the power of engaging others who see the world differently, and just loving them as human beings. Now, I just remind people that she was able to do that because she w- had developed a Christian worldview. His parents, her parents were very intentional with her. I mean, the Bible has a lot to say, and, you know, Paul talks about, “Bad company corrupts good characters.” So we gotta help our kids choose friends wisely. But if we help them think biblically first, then they can reach out with confidence and love those who are around them.
Jim: Mm.
John: Mm-hmm. Uh, Sean, how do we do that? Because I know somebody’s hearing this thinking, “Well, you’re caving on principle.” So l- love has to be key in this conversation, in this friendship, but it doesn’t mean that that young lady has given up on truth. So how is she in there? And this is kind of what we talked about last time. How is she in there and not judging, but still staying true to scriptural principles?
Sean: One, w- there’s a principle that I put in the book and I try to help people grasp, is that understanding and listening does not equal affirmation. If I listen to somebody’s worldview, and I understand, it doesn’t mean I agree with them.
John: Mm.
Sean: Doesn’t mean I’m affirming that, on any issue, not just tied to sexuality. So you can be in a relationship with somebody who sees the world differently, in fact, sees it very differently. And that relationship itself doesn’t imply that you agree with or necessarily affirm how that person views the world or what they believe. Now, the key is how do you stand firm with what you believe and not compromise it, but also show grace and kindness and be in a relationship with somebody, not just to get them to convert, but because you love them as human beings. That’s where the dance is and that’s where it gets tricky. I have a friend of mine. He’s an outspoken atheist and we’re talking about writing a book together, point-counterpoint. And I said to him, I said, “Look, I’ll be honest. I, I want you to be become a Christian.” This is a book about how we have conversations, about how we understand. We’re gonna discuss issues. But I would be totally disingenuous if I didn’t say that I hope you become a follower of Jesus someday, but I still care about you and I love you, even if you don’t ’cause I think you’re just an interesting person made in God’s image.
Jim: Yeah.
Sean: There’s wisdom in just understanding where somebody’s coming from. Sometimes as Christians, we feel the need to tell people why they’re wrong, why we disagree. Like why start there?
John: Yeah.
Sean: I mean, take Paul’s sermon in Acts 17.
Jim: Yeah.
Sean: He doesn’t stand up there and say, “Athenian men and women, repent. You’re sinners. You’re going to hell.” He doesn’t start there. He starts by saying, “I see that you’re very religious.”
John: Mm.
Jim: Right. (laughs)
Sean: What’s he doing?
Jim: Drawing them in.
Sean: He’s drawing them in and he’s building common ground with them.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Sean: He’s saying, “Guess what? You care about religious things. I care about religious things. You’re seeking God. In some sense, I’m on a journey with God.” And then he cites their poets positively-
John: Mm-hmm.
Sean: … in that presentation.
Jim: Yeah.
Sean: So kindness and common ground can go such a long ways-
Jim: Mm.
Sean: … towards just having walls go down and real conversation, you know, beginning. That’s why in conversation with people, rather than focusing on differences, I’m looking for areas of common ground that we have.
John: Mm, yeah. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and we’re so glad to have you along with us today as we talk to Sean McDowell. His, uh, fantastic book is called A Rebel’s Manifesto: Choosing Truth, Real Justice, and Love Amid the Noise of Today’s World, and, uh, we’ll encourage you to get a copy of it from us here at the ministry. Uh, we’ve got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Sean, when you were teaching high school, I know you’ve transferred now to the elite institution of university-
Sean: (laughs)
Jim: … but back in high school you facilitated, uh, debate with, uh, your students. What was the purpose of doing that?
Sean: Three of my students came in to me after school and they said they’d gone to the local public school event where they had a hundred students come out-
Jim: Oof.
Sean: … and hear about free thinking and atheism and agnosticism, and they were telling me about it and I said, “Well, what do you guys wanna do about it?” They said, “I don’t know.” And we came up with this idea. They said, “Well, what if we challenge three of their students against three of you in a debate on the historical Jesus, morality, and evolution and kind of creationism?” And so we went to their students and they agreed. And so we hosted this in our church, and it was packed, which was probably 400-plus people. Not a huge sanctuary, but there was standing room only. There was energy in the room. And I remember one of my students got up there in the middle of this, and she made a statement. She said, “We all know there’s right and wrong. It’s intuitive, it’s obvious, and that’s because there’s a moral law. And the best explanation for a moral law is there’s a moral lawgiver. So morality points towards God.” She sits down. One of their students, an agnostic, he said, “There is no objective right and wrong. It’s all a matter of preference. In fact, morality is like ice cream.” He used some illustration like that. “And therefore it doesn’t point towards God.” And he sits down. We get to the closing speeches, and in the closing speech of a debate, you’re supposed to sum up the points you made and why you think you win. One of their students gets up there, the same student who just said, “There’s no objective morality. It’s all a matter of opinion,” looks out and realize he has a mostly Christian audience, and he basically starts preaching. He looks out and just starts calling the audience names. He goes, “You know what? You folks are a bunch of bigots. You’re homophobic, you’re hateful, you’re intolerant. Shame on you.” Repeats himself and sits down. And I sat there and I thought, “Are you kidding me?” A moment ago, he just said, “There’s no objective right and wrong.”
John: Uh-huh.
Sean: But you immoral bigots have violated-
John: (laughs)
Sean: … every objective moral norm and should have seen differently.
John: Mm-hmm.
Sean: He didn’t even see it. Why? ‘Cause his worldview implied there’s no objective morality, no need for God, but he’s still made in God’s image. And Romans 2 says we have a moral conscience, and he couldn’t escape it. Now, my students didn’t pick up on that until later. But I, if, you know, at that point, I couldn’t. I’m the moderator. I was about to walk up there and just say, “I wanna thank the atheist agnostic side-”
Jim: (laughs)
Sean: “… for conceding the debate by making moral judgments.”
John: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
Sean: But if I could draw one thing abou- about this, the key with our kids is to realize they deeply know God exists. They know there’s right and wrong, but our culture suppresses it like a beach ball. So back you said the LGBTQ conversation earlier, that’s related to what it means to be human. Kids know that men and women are different. They intuitively know it. I wanna look for times where our culture pushes the beach ball down-
Jim: Right. (laughs)
Sean: … but then the truth just pops up because it’s inescapable. Even this atheist kid was made in God’s image and lives in God’s world, so in that moment, the beach ball popped up.
Jim: Uh-huh. That’s so good. You also did a, like an atheist encounter. Is that a different, uh, illustration where you encourage kids with the atheist encounter? What was that?
Sean: So this is where I will go to… I’ve gone to Christian universities, I’ve gone to conferences, I’ve done pastors conferences, Christian schools, you name it. And I will role play an atheist.
Jim: (laughs)
Sean: Now, typically, people know I’m role playing.
Jim: Yeah.
Sean: One time they didn’t, and a school put it online. I mean, last I checked, it got like five or six million views. It went totally viral. I did not expect that.
Jim: Oh, you must… You do a good job playing the atheist.
Sean: Well, I think the reason it did was because they really thought I was an atheist in this setting. And I put glasses on, I introduced my atheist character, and I start taking questions. And students ask questions or people in the audience ask questions and I respond as I think an atheist might. You let this thing go 15, 20, sometimes 30, 35 minutes, and people start getting frustrated. You can feel it in the room. And many times people will start calling me names. They’ll attack me personally. They’ll cut me off.
Jim: These are the Christians?
Sean: These are the Christians.
Jim: Oh.
Sean: They’ll stand up. They’ll shout over me.
John: Mm.
Sean: And then in that case, they really thought I was an atheist. So I take my atheist glasses off and I said, “You know what? I’m actually a Christian.” And I gave a whole talk about how do we treat people who see the world differently?
John: Mm. Yeah.
Sean: And it was like silence in the room. So that’s more of an exercise to teach Christians, number one, how do we ask good questions? How do we see ideas and respond, think biblically, but also what’s the way in which we treat people?
Jim: Mm.
Sean: I mean, communication involves content.
Jim: Yeah.
Sean: But also involves the way we treat people.
Jim: Do you think where the scripture talks about the clanging cymbal, you know, without love, i- is this the application of that? That we can have knowledge, but if we don’t wield that knowledge in a way that can be absorbed and learned and-
Sean: Mm.
Jim: … built upon by the other person, the atheist or the non-believer, then we, we do sound like a clanging cymbal. We’re not achieving everything that God would want us to achieve. And I think in this day of technology-
Sean: Mm.
Jim: … and access to information in Bible studies galore, I mean, we have lots of knowledge, but the maturity of how to wield that knowledge for an outcome-
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … is lacking.
Sean: I do agree with that. I was doing my atheist encounter, which I call it, with 6,000 students at an event in Minnesota, probably 15 years ago. And I set up microphones around the stadium, and at that time, I had my atheist jacket. They knew I was role playing. And-
Jim: I’m gonna come to that next time you do it.
Sean: It’s really interesting, Jim.
Jim: (laughs) That’d be fun.
Sean: It’s really interesting. And when I turned around to start my atheist encounter, the audience booed me, and one, one, uh, pastor shouted out, “You’re going to hell.” So I went off script and I said, “Whoa. Like here I’m invited as a guest who has a different worldview, and you boo me. Do you think Jesus would treat an invited guest this way? He’s, he talked about praying for your enemies. Yeah, I mean, of course not.” I said, “What about Paul?” In the passage you cited, w- the love passage, 1 Corinthians 13, he talks, “But if you have not love, you have nothing. You’re like a clanging cymbal.” And it was silent in that stadium, which I think proves there’s a God because junior-highers were present, ironically enough.
Jim: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Sean: But you’re right. Communication, again, it’s the content we wanna get across, but it’s the medium by which we communicate it. So a clanging cymbal is just, it’s annoying.
Jim: Yes. (laughs)
Sean: And it, it’s, it’s background that makes you not wanna listen. So if our attitude and our character is not gentle and it’s not kind, it’s gonna make people not wanna listen to us. Now with that said, is there still a time for a prophetic voice? Absolutely. But that needs to be done wisely and carefully, and I think far more people on Twitter and I’ll ever-
Jim: Yeah. (laughs)
Sean: … think they’re God’s megaphone and lack the gentleness and kindness and wisdom you cited from Paul’s letter to Timothy.
Jim: Yeah, that’s really good. You know, the issue of abortion is, uh, you know-
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … a hotly contested issue in the culture today, and, you know-
Sean: Mm.
Jim: … we as believers in a tradition of defending the pre-born child, um, that was something the early church did. You know, in fact, there’s something called The Didache. I think it was written around 100, 110. This would’ve been what we would refer to as those that were discipled by the disciples. This would’ve been that group of men and women, and they expanded on The Ten Commandments and in Thou Shall Not Murder, they said-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … “You will not procure an abortion or engage in infanticide.” That’s right-
John: Mm.
Jim: … from the early church. So when, you know, some of my m- Christian friends who are more liberal on that issue, I’ll say, “Man, you gotta know the history.” I mean, if you wanna look at something close to the original, meaning Jesus and the disciples, 100 AD they were talking about not getting an abortion and not procuring or, or, uh, engaging in infanticide, which was birthing the child and leaving it to die through exposure. And I think in that context, when we’re looking at the abortion issue, a- e- e- how do we go about persuasion?
Sean: I think a couple things help. I think the science is working in our favor. I mean, one of the main reasons a woman will choose to keep her child when she visits a pregnancy resource center is seeing the ultrasound.
Jim: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Sean: Like, “Wow, it’s a human being that is forming inside of me.” So there’s debates about when and how you show images of abortion itself, but I think people should see it early to know what we’re talking about. I mean-
Jim: Let me insert a, a stat there-
Sean: Yeah.
Jim: … just to help the audience ’cause we do that through Option Ultrasound. We’ve been doing this-
Sean: Mm.
Jim: … for over 20 years, providing ultrasound machines to clinics, et cetera.
Sean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: A b- lot of other things, too. But in that context, 60% of abortion-minded women, so they’re going to the clinic-
Sean: Oh, interesting.
Jim: … to get the abortion-
Sean: Huh.
Jim: … will change their mind when they see-
Sean: Mm.
Jim: … the ultrasound of their baby.
John: Hmm.
Sean: Hmm.
Jim: The fingers, the toes, often sucking the thumb in the womb.
Sean: Mm.
Jim: Raising their hands, moving their limbs. When the woman sees that-
Sean: Mm.
Jim: … 60% of abortion-minded women will say, “I can’t do this. I’ve got to have this child.”
Sean: Mm.
Jim: Phew. That’s knowing in your heart what is true.
John: Mm.
Sean: Well, we also have social media now to share images of the unborn. You don’t have to wait until you get an ultrasound. The other thing I would say about persuasion is, especially on the issue of abortion, and this is true in the church and outside, there’s a lot of hurt-
Jim: Mm.
Sean: … and regret and a backstory of people that if they came to the conclusion that life begins at conception, they’ve made a disastrous choice. So, especially on this issue, I, I wanna get to the story behind the story, the question-
John: Mm-hmm.
Sean: … behind the question. I mean, there’s a proverb that says, “The purposes in a man’s heart are deep and a person of wisdom draws it out.”
Jim: Mm.
Sean: This can be guys who have regret taking their girlfriend to get an abortion.
John: Mm-hmm.
Sean: So on this topic, approach it with sensitivity and try to find out if there’s a backstory driving it, but then we also have to be prepared to make a simple case for the unborn. We’ve gotta be ready. And there’s different ways to do this. One simple case is humans get human rights. The right to life is a human right. The unborn are human, therefore the unborn has a right to life.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Sean: I’ve memorized that and use that in conversation. I’ll ask people, “Which one do you disagree with? Do you disagree that humans get the, you know, human rights? Do you disagree that the right to life is a human right? Do you disagree that the unborn is human?” And it creates a conversation focused on the facts and the evidence which points towards, from the moment of conception-
John: Mm.
Sean: … a unique, distinct, living human organism is present.
Jim: Let’s, at the end here, let’s just move to, um, a really serious subject, loneliness and the bullying and suicide that occurs-
Sean: Mm.
Jim: … in young people today. 73% of young people ages 18 to 22 report feeling lonely. Uh, we talked about that last time briefly, but, u- uh, why is Gen Z one of the loneliest generations and what’s the bottom line? What’s happening?
Sean: Ultimately, loneliness is an extension of broken relationships. We are made by God, you know this, to be in a relationship with God and relationship with others. And when we don’t have those healthy relationships, some type of counterfeit is going to step in for it. It might be pornography, it might be working hard at good grades, or being an exemplary athlete. It might be video games. Something’s going to step in to be the root of my identity if we have broken relationships. So this generation, at its core, doesn’t have the healthy, consistent relationships it needs to flourish. Now, we’ve seen some positive shifts since COVID, which is encouraging a little bit with fathers being more engaged, but at root, loneliness stems from broken relationships. Uh, look, social media has positive, it also has negative. But when you’re staring at a screen somewhere between five and seven and sometimes 10 hours a day, rather than a human being, this is going to affect your psyche. I think Jonathan Haidt has shown pretty demonstratively that social media, unfiltered access to (laughs) social media, has a negative impact on the loneliness of this generation. So I think there’s a, a number of factors that are at play here. But at root, the solution to it is having the kinds of face-to-face present relationships God has designed us to have.
Jim: Well, and the million dollar question for a parent, a, an astute parent who’s seeing something in their teens, what can they do to help arrest that sense of loneliness and, and really be there for their teen who is feeling desperately lonely?
Sean: Well, first off, have boundaries when it comes to technology. I think a positive thing we’ve seen this year in schools is more and more schools are just getting technology in terms of smartphones out entirely.
John: Mm-hmm.
Sean: Now, again, I’m not against smartphones, but you don’t have it out so you… Between classes what used to happen is kids would just turn, bam, they look at their phone. Now they stop and turn and they look at their neighbor. Now they actually talk more together.
John: Mm.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sean: So most kids studies show, and I document in that book that most teenagers want boundaries when it comes to technology.
Jim: Mm.
Sean: Now the debate is gonna come what those boundaries are, but if we have reasonable boundaries and we state them and we hold our kids to them consistently, that can help, and most kids are going to respond. The other thing the parent can do is just talk and listen. Go take them to breakfast. Take them to coffee and say, “I’m concerned. Just tell me what’s going on. You seem down. You seem lonely.”
Jim: Be engaged.
Sean: Yeah. Like, like-
Jim: I mean… (laughs)
Sean: Yeah, that’s the simple solution.
Jim: Yeah, (laughs) be engaged.
Sean: But just… You know, it’s so sad. Oftentimes when people, you know, this is a really serious one, but will end up taking their own life. People look back and go, “You know what? I should have seen A, B, C, and D.”
Jim: Yeah. So true.
Sean: Well, you gotta give yourself grace with that. But parents have to be paying attention. Teachers have to be paying attention and just ask about it and lean in-
Jim: Yeah.
Sean: … and try to address it as you can.
Jim: Wow, really good. Sean McDowell, A Rebel’s Manifesto. What a great resource.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And this has been a great couple of days, uh, discussing these situations with you and how to help our young people do better and be healthier, et cetera. Hey, this is Focus’ goal. You know, this, yeah, I often say Focus is just a treasure trove of help.
Sean: Mm.
Jim: And, uh, man, we have counselors, we have resources, books, and articles and all kinds of things to help you in this parenting effort. And, uh, to be that inquisitive person without the ultimate agenda, other than to help your child succeed and be healthy spiritually, emotionally, physically. And so, get in touch with us. Uh, make a gift of any amount monthly or a one-time gift, and we’ll send you a copy of Sean’s book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, call today, donate, and get this book. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or you can go to focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
