Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One:

John Fuller: In Hamlet, Shakespeare wrote that conscience does make cowards of us all. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and today we’ll be talking with Dr. Erwin Lutzer about keeping a clear conscience with God and others. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Uh, John, Satan loves when he can neutralize us as believers and discourage us, and, you know, really play on the despair that is in most human hearts.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Because we aren’t perfect people. We are sinners saved by grace, and Christians need not be held captive to that sin, riddled with guilt, because God wants us to live with freedom and joy and peace of mind. And I know, uh, our discussion with Dr. Lutzer today will help ease so many burdens that you may be carrying today. I want you to lean in with us. This is not gonna be the milk. It’ll be the meat of the word today. So let’s get into it and start talking to our great guest.

John: Yeah. And Dr. Lutzer is a very popular author and speaker, pastor emeritus of Moody Church in Chicago, and served as senior pastor there for 36 years. Of the books he’s written, uh, the one that really forms the foundation for, uh, today’s conversation is The Power of a Clear Conscience: Let God Free You From Your Past. And we’ve got details about our guest and his book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Dr. Lutzer, it is so good to have you back here at Focus on the Family. Welcome.

Dr. Erwin Lutzer: I’m so glad to be back, and I thank God for this ministry, and thank you, John. And thank you, Jim. Great to be with you again.

Jim: It’s so, uh, stimulating. You know, the listeners and the viewers love it when you’re here, because you do give them the meat of the word and people respond. Every time you’re on, it’s one of our most popular shows. So thank you for the effort to get here and to be part of this. Let me start, this idea of conscience. You know, since I was a Christian at age 15, we always talk about the body, soul, and spirit or the body, mind and spirit. What is conscience? Where does it come from, and where does it fit in those three descriptions we read about in scripture about how we’re comprised?

Dr. Lutzer: Well, that’s an interesting question. Let’s look at the word conscience by itself. It comes from two words, con, which means with, and then conscience, science, which means knowledge. So it’s the knowledge that we have along with us.

Jim: Hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: And there are several things that we can say about conscience with authority. First of all, it is universal. Everyone has a conscience. But Jim, we have to understand that the conscience also has tremendous power. One of the reasons I wrote the book that we’re discussing today is I’m thinking for example, of a man in a church married to a wonderful woman, four children. He’s asked to be a church leader and he says no repeatedly. Then he confesses to his pastor that the reason is he fathered a child when he was in college, and he knows that this boy is growing up in another city. So here’s a man who can’t make progress in the Christian life until he has dealt with that. The Bible says in 1 John 3:21, “If our hearts condemn us not, then we have confidence towards God.” So the Apostle Paul says this in Acts 24:16. “I make it a point to have a clear conscience before God and before men.” Clearing our consciences before God is relatively easy through confession and repentance, but often those reconciliation issues are very, very difficult. And one of the things that we have to do is to help people through the process. Now, one other thing about conscience, here’s something very interesting. It does not condemn us before we do an act. It only kicks in after we have sinned.

Jim: Well, let me ask you about that because it’s, uh, especially for the people listening that might not be committed to Christ, they’re interested, I would say Christian-friendly, but they’re not there, there are people viewing us and, and listening to us that fit that description. Uh, the evidence of that conscience usually is described as a little child when they steal that cookie out of the cookie jar. That might be one of the first times they’re doing something that they know mom and dad did not want me to do. And that’s where that flares up. They’ve taken the cookie and mom says, “Did you take a cookie outta the cookie jar?” “No.” Now they’ve lied. And then that is like the early introduction of conscience to a child, isn’t it?

Dr. Lutzer: Well, it might be. That might be the evidence of conscience. But we’re all born with a conscience, with a God-consciousness.

Jim: Huh.

Dr. Lutzer: And of course, it can be conditioned. In other words, conscience is not always a reliable guide as to what we should do. But at the same time, Jim, everyone who’s listening to us today has had the experience of doing something, and later on the conscience says, “Ha-ha, you have messed up. You’ve done something that you know is wrong and it has gone against your own values.” And the way we can talk about conscience is this, coming here to Colorado, of course, flying from O’Hare, I went through a metal detector. Sometimes those metal detectors are very sensitive, sometimes less sensitive. So you have people with a sensitive conscience, a not-so-sensitive conscience, but everyone knows that there is some objective standard to which they are accountable.

Jim: Yeah. You know, on a a lighter note, you had a story about a sandwich in a briefcase in your book (laughs).

Dr. Lutzer: Yeah.

Jim: Alright. We need a little relief when we’re talking about such he- heavy subject matter.

Dr. Lutzer: Right. Yeah.

Jim: So what was the sandwich that that taught you a lesson?

Dr. Lutzer: Alright, so this was years ago when you used to be fed on a plane, you remember?

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Lutzer: And the plane is coming into O’Hare and I’m given a sandwich that is actually wrapped in cellophane. And I wasn’t very hungry, so I put it in my briefcase. I had two briefcases at that time, one when I would fly and one when I would go to the church. And, um, later on I’d come into my room and I would smell something, but I didn’t know what it was. And then about a month later when I flew again, there it was. Now, if you have to ask what did it look like, it was green and mushy.

Jim: (laughs) Describe the smell.

Dr. Lutzer: And very, and very smelly. Okay? Now, that’s the way some people are.

Jim: Hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: They’ve taken sin that they need to deal with, and they’ve wrapped it up. They’ve said to themselves, “It is put away,” but then it pops up and it’s always there. And so what we have to do is to try to help them see how that can be resolved. How they can be forgiven by God, but also by others, so that there can be harmony.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: You know, there’s so many issues out there. I wanna tell you one other story. And that is that, um, I have a friend whose mother, she would commit herself to a psych ward from time to time. He’s 22 years old. She sits him down and she said, “I want you to know that the man that you think your father is, is not your father. Your father lives a number of miles away. He’s a man with whom I had an affair.” Now, let everyone put themselves in the shoes of this young man. He’s 22, he’s trying to figure out who in the world he is. Today, he is one of the most mighty men of God that I know.

Jim: Huh.

Dr. Lutzer: He goes from church to church and, uh, challenges men, has a marvelous ministry. So I want to shout out there to everyone who’s listening, your background and your origin should not be an eternal stumbling block to who you can be in Christ and the forgiveness of God and the reconciliation of God.

Jim: No. Amen. I mean, that’s so true. What was is past and what is in the future is where God wants you to go.

Dr. Lutzer: Yeah.

Jim: Let me, let me ask you about another, uh, story that you had in the book, because it really kind of paints that picture of the severity when you talk about the screener and some consciences being tender and others being less tender. This man was a, I think, involved in a yacht race.

Dr. Lutzer: Yes.

Jim: And, uh, did something. Explain what happened and the, the load that he carried.

Dr. Lutzer: Yeah. Well, his name was Crowhurst and he was in a yacht race around the world. And what he tried to do is to cheat, to pretend that he was going with all the other yachts, but actually he wasn’t. He was hiding somewhere. He wanted to catch them on the way back. Eventually, he committed suicide. He left all of his logs so that people could see that indeed he had cheated. But here’s the point. He didn’t want to face the embarrassment of having cheated, so unresolved guilt can lead to suicide-

Jim: That’s the burden.

Dr. Lutzer: Where people don’t want to be able to live up to the exposure that’s coming, and so they want to end it.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: But, but I contend with all my heart. In fact, I have a chapter in the book that we’re talking about on how nobody has to commit suicide, because no matter what you have done, the grace of God is able to cover that, and God has an answer for people where they are, despite their past.

Jim: Erwin, let me ask you this. Um, I know Christians who carry such a burden have a high sensitivity meter to their conscience, if I could say it that way. I like that description. That connects for me. But they, they can’t shake it. It is always present. It’s just-

Dr. Lutzer: Alright.

Jim: Those sins that they committed, they will say something like, “God can’t forgive me for that.”

Dr. Lutzer: Alright. Jim, that is so critical. And you know, you opened this program by mentioning something very interesting, namely that Satan accuses us during the day and during the night. The Bible says night and day. So let’s answer the question for Christians. How do we distinguish the accusations of Satan from the conviction of the Holy Spirit?

Jim: That’s a big one.

Dr. Lutzer: That’s a big one. And the answer is this, the Holy Spirit of God does bring conviction so that we repent of our sins. 1 John 1:9, we confess our sins that are brought to our attention. But it is Satan who hassles us and reminds us of sins that God has already forgiven. Example, here’s a woman who comes to me and says, “Pastor Lutzer.” She says, “When I’m in a mall and I see a three-year-old child, a three-year-old girl,” she says, “I am just so overwhelmed with guilt because I had an abortion. And because of that, that’s the age that my baby would be today.” I said to her, “Have you confessed your sin?” Oh, she said, “I’ve confessed my sin a thousand times.” Now let’s talk about that. What she is saying is that God is not faithful and just to forgive us our sins. And I pointed out to her that it is Satan who reminds her of sins that have been forgiven by God and that these kinds of feelings might come up. But she has to meet them by saying, “I receive the forgiveness that I have received from God, and I’m not gonna be overwhelmed with this.” Now, while I’m on the subject, 1 John 1:9, “He is faithful to forgive our sins and to cleanse us.” I have to say in all sincerity, I think there are many people who are forgiven, but they aren’t cleansed.

Jim: Mm.

Dr. Lutzer: Cleansed has to do with a conscience. Cleansed has to do with the whole idea that we are now not only forgiven, but we sense that forgiveness.

Jim: Yes.

Dr. Lutzer: And we say that forgiveness is mine, and I’m not gonna be overwhelmed with the past because God takes our sins, he throws them into the depths of the sea, and then he puts up a sign that says, “No fishing.”

Jim: Right (laughs). I mean, And I think for the, again, the nominal believer that doesn’t know the lingo or the nonbeliever that doesn’t know the lingo, this is why we call it the good news. This is the good news, that Christ died for our sins so that we can have relationship with God.

Dr. Lutzer: Yeah. And it’s not only that, uh, we have good advice for people. We actually have good news, that Jesus-

Jim: Yeah. I would call it the great news (laughs).

Dr. Lutzer: The great news. Jesus died for the worst of sinners. And we need to be able to get that message out there. And we need to understand the nature of grace and also the nature of God. At the same time, we also have to help people to see that there are times when they have to reconcile with others when it isn’t simply a matter of forgiveness before God, but we go back to our key verse today where the Apostle Paul says, “I make it a point to have a clear conscience before God and before man.”

Jim: Mm-hmm. You know, Irwin, one of the things that is hard to understand is the Garden of Eden for some, and this is where conscience was raised, right?

Dr. Lutzer: Exactly.

Jim: The Lord said, “Don’t eat of this fruit.”

Dr. Lutzer: Right.

Jim: We can discuss is that a metaphor or what have you, but basically it’s the, God’s instruction to us, to them, Adam and Eve, not to eat of this fruit. And of course, Satan comes along and says, “Why can’t you be like God? You can eat of that fruit, you can have the knowledge.” And they do. Speak to that moment of the garden, what that represents for for us.

Dr. Lutzer: Oh, that is so critical. That’s the origin of conscience.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: You know, when Adam and Eve sinned, you remember what, one of the first things they did is they hid.

Jim: Mm-hmm. They were ashamed.

Dr. Lutzer: They were ashamed. And then God says, when he comes to Adam, “Who told you that you were naked?” Was there a little bird in the garden that said, hey, you’re naked? No. Conscience told them they were naked. So here you have hiding. From now on, we’re gonna live in two worlds. We’re gonna live in the public world and we’re also gonna live in the private world. And in its worst form, here, you have a man who in one compartment is a Sunday teacher and he is highly thought of in the church. On the other hand, he’s an abuser and an addict. Okay? Privately. So you have, immediately you have hiding, but you also have blaming.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: Jim, I don’t know if you’ve heard me say this or not because I’ve said in a different context, but you remember when God said to Adam, “Has thou eaten of the tree? Where have I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?” He blames God. He says, “The woman whom thou gavest me. It’s this weak-willed woman, Lord, whom you gave me.”

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Lutzer: And I always point out that Adam blamed his wife even though there wasn’t a chance in the world that he had married the wrong one.

Jim: (laughs) Right. There was only one. That’s really good. It’s so true.

Dr. Lutzer: So then you begin the blaming, you begin the hiding. And all of that began in Eden.

Jim: Well, and I love that connection to the fact that there’s nothing new under the sun. I mean, we are still behaving like Adam and Eve, caught.

Dr. Lutzer: Yes.

Jim: Every day.

Dr. Lutzer: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s the battle, and that’s the evidence for the spiritual journey of this life.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that shame and blame continues. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest is Dr. Erwin Lutzer. And we’re talking about some of the content in a terrific book he’s written called The Power of a Clear Conscience: Let God Free You From Your Past. Stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast for details.

Jim: You know, just to encourage you, uh, you know, I get the prep for the program in the book and I read that and, uh, I sent the prep along to my 21-year-old son this morning early ’cause he’s flying out and he had a chance to look at it on the airplane. He wrote me back and said, “This is incredible content.” So even a 21-year-old is connecting with what you’re having to say in this regard. I just think that’s an affirmation to you about the importance of your work and what you do.

Dr. Lutzer: Yeah. And ultimately, it relates directly to the Gospel, of course, and God’s answer to our problem. And on the one hand, we never want to minimize sin, but on the other hand, we always have to maximize grace. And to the person that’s out there who think that they’ve sinned too much for God to forgive them, the answer is no.

Jim: Yeah. And that, man, that should light everybody up. How could we hold back from sharing that good news with people, and with ourselves? There is a, an element of this, Erwin, I wanted to ask you about. For me, one of the most difficult, uh, public speaking situations, when I share about my past and being an orphan and my dad and being an alcoholic. And I’ll have 50-year-old, 60-year-old men stand in line, come up to me in tears and say, “How did you ever forgive him?”

Dr. Lutzer: Mm-hmm.

Jim: “I can’t forgive my father.” And I honestly, the one thing, I, I just thank the Lord that He gave me is even a five, six-year-old child. I always thought to myself, wow, that’s really a bad problem my dad has. I did not own it. I thought that’s sad that he has that problem. And it, it’s one of those things where you as a believer, you have to get to that point that this burden is too big for us to bear. We can’t find a way out of sin. We need God. And then you have to be able to say, “God, I’m inadequate. I can’t do this. I need you.” And those men will walk away, some get it, and others are still punching at the air of guilt, shame, regret, um, resentment and I, I struggle helping them.

Dr. Lutzer: And you know, what I’d like to do is to shout out to everyone listening, whatever you don’t forgive, you pass on.

Jim: Whoo.

Dr. Lutzer: And so when you have someone who says, “I can’t forgive my parents,” they actually take that kind of anger and guilt with them into their next relationship. And to all those who are out there, you say, “Well, I can’t really be reconciled to my parents because number one, they won’t admit to what has happened.” Secondly, maybe the dad has died. I tell the story of a woman who traveled far away to go to the grave of her mother who was a prostitute. And this woman stood there for a long time just dealing with the anger and the guilt and laying it down at the foot of the cross so that she could be free.

John: Hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: You can’t do anything about the past. The past has passed. You can’t pray like the teenager did. Lord, I pray that this accident might not have happened.

Jim: Right (laughs).

Dr. Lutzer: The past has passed. The question is, if you hold onto bitterness, you are the one who is suffering, not the person against whom you have the anger.

Jim: Yeah. That’s so, so true. Sometimes the environment we’re born into can, you know, be a shame-based environment. Um, I studied in Japan, and that culture, you, there’s a high performance requirement, and if a child can’t meet that educationally, whatever it might be, there is shame that comes to that because you’re shaming our family. Um, speak to that kind of attitude and the destructive nature of it.

Dr. Lutzer: Well, this is a false guilt of course. I mean, if you were brought up in a home where your father was an alcoholic, where you were so ashamed of what was happening in your home or a home in which there was abuse and you were abused, you are going to feel guilty for just being alive and you’re gonna end up with a lot of self-hatred. That kind of guilt is not guilt from God. Let me give you another kind. My parents knew a woman who convinced her husband to go to a, um, concert that he didn’t want to go to. On the way, they were in an accident and he was killed. For 14 years, she went to her husband’s grave regretting the fact that it was because of her decision that he was dead. That kind of guilt is not from God, that’s self-imposed guilt. So what we have to help people to understand is you have to be free from a guilt that is not given to you by God. Now, God does make us feel guilty over sins that we have committed, but the purpose is to drive us to repentance.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: But we have a lot of self-imposed guilt that is very destructive.

Jim: Erwin, we’re gonna come back tomorrow and continue the discussion because again, I think this is rich content. This is the meat of the word. This is how we apply it in our lives to be stronger Christians, to be more faithful in our commitment to Christ, to break those bonds that Satan whispers to us, that our own conscience might whisper to us that God’s paid the price for. I mean, that’s the nutshell of what you’ve written about. Um, but I want to finish up the first part of our conversation this time with a reminder of God’s grace for us as sinners. This one can be a little, um, jarring to the listeners. Uh, but you have a story about a chaplain who ministered to Nazi war criminals. And, um, boy, the outcome on the one hand you go, wow, God’s love is that immense. On the other hand, you’re going, really? That could happen? Explain what it is.

Dr. Lutzer: Yeah. There are gonna be many people who are going to be mystified, maybe even angry. But this is the story, and it’s found in a book entitled Mission at Nuremberg by Tim Townsend. And they, people can read it for themselves. The American government believed that a chaplain should be sent to the 21 Nazi prisoners who were in Nuremberg. Six were Catholic, 15 were Protestant. So this man went there with the gospel and this chaplain explained the gospel. And one of the things, Jim, that he discovered is that these Nazis who attended his services, they were able to quote the Lord’s Prayer. They knew many verses of scripture because they were brought up in the church, but he believes that five and possibly as many as seven came to saving faith in Christ. Now, let’s fast-forward. The first person to be hung is a man by the name of Ribbentrop. And before he dies, he says, “I’m putting my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” I’m paraphrasing, but it’s an accurate paraphrase. “I’m putting my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, who shed His blood for my sins.” And then he said to the chaplain, “I’ll see you later.” He said that just before he was hung. Now, now we hear that. But what that illustrates is the gospel. God says, “I think so much of what Jesus Christ did on the when He died for sinners, that I can even forgive a Nazi who repents and believes on Him. But I cannot forgive a good, sane, tax-paying decent person who doesn’t believe on Him.” It’s an exaltation of grace. Could I take a moment and see if I can just quote a couple of lines of one of my favorite songs?

Jim: Of course.

Dr. Lutzer: “Marvelous grace of our loving Lord, Grace that exceeds our sin and our guilt yonder on Calvary’s mount outpoured. There where the blood of the lamb was spilled, dark is the stain that we cannot hide. What can avail to wash it away? Look, there’s flowing a crimson tide. Whiter than snow you can be today.” Imagine that, the good news of the Gospel covering horrendous sins.

Jim: I mean, that is as well said as it could be. And I think for us, that’s the excitement of the faith to be able to encourage, illuminate for that person what Jesus has actually done, and for them to respond to it. It is unnerving. It may show a little bit of our Pharisaical nature that we can’t really embrace the fact that God could forgive someone that evil, a Nazi official.

Dr. Lutzer: I call it the scandal of grace.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Grace is a scandal.

Jim: But it is like the thief on the cross next to Jesus.

Dr. Lutzer: Right.

Jim: That’s the same concept here, that the Lord cares for everyone.

Dr. Lutzer: And to think that that thief had breakfast with his friend, very probably bad to the bone thieves, and one gets to sup with Christ that very evening. And imagine Jesus on the cross still having that authority, “Today, you shall be with me in paradise.” That takes your breath away.

Jim: Yeah, exactly. Dr. Erwin Lutzer, thank you for being with us on part one. Let’s come back and keep this, uh, discussion going. There’s so much more to learn about the grace of God. It’s endless. And, uh, therefore we need to come back and, and, uh, continue the discussion. I think you’re connecting with this. I know you are. I know I am.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, man, we want to get this great resource into your hands. The Power of a Clear Conscience: Let God Free You From Your Past. Who isn’t saying yes? I mean, everyone needs that context and that ability to be able to break those shackles and those bonds that we have, uh, those chains that keep us from moving forward in our life in Christ. Uh, get a hold of us. We’ll do it three ways. If you can’t afford it, just get in touch with us and we’ll get it to you ’cause we believe in the content that much. If you can help us monthly, that’s great. If you can make a one-time gift, that’s terrific. We just want to get this great content into your hands and invite you to be part of the ministry. Uh, that’s God’s economy. Uh, help someone else as you’re being helped.

John: Mm-hmm. Contact us today. Donate generously as you can. Or if you’re not in a spot to do that, uh, just let us know that you really need a copy of this book. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. And we’ve got details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And along the way, it might be that we talked about something that’s kind of tender for you, maybe some guilt that you just can’t shake, uh, some blame, some, uh, need for forgiveness. Please know that we have caring Christian counselors here at Focus on the Family, and it’d be a privilege for us to schedule a time for them to give you a call. They’ll talk with you, they’ll pray with you. They’ll offer some resources and maybe even help connect you to somebody in your own area. Our number again, uh, for that counseling, uh, team is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Dr. Lutzer. And once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Day Two:

Dr. Erwin Lutzer: Cleansed has to do with the whole idea that we are now not only forgiven, but we sense that forgiveness. And we say that forgiveness is mine, and I’m not gonna be overwhelmed with the past because God takes our sins. He throws them into the depths of the sea, and then He puts up a sign that says, “No fishing.”

John Fuller: Well, that’s Dr. Erwin Lutzer. He was our guest last time on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, talking about the importance of having a clear conscience before God and man. He’s back with us again today. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: You know, John, I’m always thrilled to talk to, uh, Dr. Erwin Lutzer, uh, because everybody connects with him. He’s a, certainly a pastor. And all of that training and the, the searching of the Word and understanding the Word has really given him tremendous wisdom in Christ.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I enjoy talking with him. It just flows. And last time we talked about the definition of conscience, what it means, where did it come from, how does God use it? How does Satan use it against us?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then how do we free ourselves from the bondage of those whispers? And where does God want us to improve? What’s that Holy Spirit conscious, uh, awakening that we need to be alert as-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … Christians for? We’re gonna continue this discussion today. And let me just frame it this way. The Bible says, “His grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” But let me ask, do you really believe that?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, I think we, even as the Christian community struggle embracing that really. We want to kind of express power that we’re all together, that we’re perfect on the outside.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: When in reality God’s saying, “You know what? Show your weakness and I’ll make you perfect in me.”

John: Mm-hmm. That’s good insight. And, uh, great reminder about what God sees when He sees us. Well, Dr. Lutzer is a pastor emeritus of the Moody Church in Chicago. And, uh, he served there as senior pastor for 36 years. He’s written a number of books. Jim, as you said, he’s a very popular guest here and we’re glad to have him back. Uh, the book that forms the foundation about our conversation is The Power of a Clear Conscience: Let God Free You From Your Past. And we’ve got copies of that here, uh, at the ministry. Just stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Dr. Lutzer, welcome back.

Dr. Lutzer: Glad to be with you again.

Jim: It’s fun. I so enjoy it. I mean, it is, it’s like sitting and getting a meal-

Dr. Lutzer: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that’s filling the spiritual tummy-

Dr. Lutzer: Yeah.

Jim: … if I could say it that way.

Dr. Lutzer: Well, thank you. And, you know, doctrine has to be applied to life or else-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: … it’s irrelevant, right? And one of the things that we need to understand is that we have a God who understands human need and is willing to meet us wherever we are at.

Jim: Yeah. And that is, that is life. Right? That is what this whole thing is probably about. Um, you, I love it when the author gives personal examples ’cause that’s so refreshing ’cause you’re not trying to project, uh, yourself as the perfect human and I so appreciate that. I think so many in Christian leadership, we do ourselves such a disservice and more the gospel of disservice to try to pretend that we’re all together. You had a story, I think about anger sitting in a parking lot before you’re gonna give a sermon.

Dr. Lutzer: Oh, did I include that in the book?

Jim: (Laughs)

John: (Laughs)

Jim: You might have, or our producer picked it up in his talks with you. But the bottom line was-

Dr. Lutzer: All right.

Jim: … I love it.

Dr. Lutzer: All right.

Jim: Tell us what happened.

Dr. Lutzer: So here I am, I’m to speak at a conference-

Jim: (Laughs)

Dr. Lutzer: I’m having a difficult time finding a parking space. And somehow I am overwhelmed with guilt, a sense of inadequacy. And immediately I began to recognize that this comes from Satan and not from God. So in the car, I was alone. And it’s best to do this when you are alone in the car. I said, “Be gone, Satan, for is written who shall lay any charge to God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemned? It is Christ that died, yay, rather, that has risen again and is even now on the right hand of the throne of God who maketh the intercession for us.” Jim, calmness came over my soul.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: I found a parking space. 15 minutes later, I stood up to speak and all was well.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: You see what I believe Satan was trying to do is to confuse me, to bring guilt upon me-

Jim: Convict you.

Dr. Lutzer: … convict me. And I took a stand against it. And by the way, if there are people who are listening and they say, “Well, where did that passage of scripture come from?” Well, that’s Romans 8. Jesus, when He was there in the desert, three times, “Be gone Satan, for it is written.” And I believe that there are times when we should speak to the devil, so to speak. Martin Luther certainly did that. And what we have to do is to recognize that we are listening to his voice and it is a voice of deception. It is a voice of condemnation. And this is the way you tell the difference. When Satan speaks to you about your sin, he’s trying to drive you away from God. When the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin, He is driving you toward God for-

Jim: For-

Dr. Lutzer: … forgiveness.

Jim: That is so true. I wanna read a, a Spurgeon quote and have you just respond to it. Uh, Spurgeon, of course, one of the great, uh, theologians. He said, “Man piles a mountain of sin, but God will match it and He raises up a loftier mountain of grace. Abundant sin is no barrier to the super abundant grace of God.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Do we believe that as Christians?

Dr. Lutzer: Well, you know, as a pastor, I used to receive an awful lot of mail from people. And one of the questions I was always asked, I mean not always, but frequently is, “Did I commit the unpardonable sin?” So if there’s anyone out there who believes that they have committed the unpardonable sin, the answer is no, you have not. If you have a desire to be forgiven, you can be forgiven. The unpardonable sin was committed in the New Testament when Jesus did miracles and the nation turned against Him. But there is an unpardonable sin, and that is people who do not want forgiveness. They do not seek forgiveness. And so they harden their hearts and they go the wrong direction. Now, since we’re talking about stories, one day a man writes to me from prison and he says, “I violated four women. I’ve destroyed their lives. I’m sitting in this cell and I’m listening to you. Can I be forgiven?”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: Now Jim, there was something within me that thought, “No, you deserve hell.” But then it dawned on me that biblically all of us deserve hell. So I wrote back and I said this, I said, “I want you to visualize two trails. One trail is really messy. I mean, know there’s ruts all over the road. There’s another trail that is very well traveled, but then 18 inches of snow falls and covers both trails. Can you tell the difference? No.” “Come now. Let us reason together,” says the Lord, “Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.” And the righteousness that he receives through repentance and faith is the same righteousness that you Jim have received and you John have received and that I have received. It is the righteousness of God and it is capable of covering the most horrendous sins.

Jim: You know, and that that is absolutely true and accurate. Yet I can feel that in people’s hearts. It’s hard to absorb that that person that you described that wrote you from prison, yeah. Many will still say, “I hope you go to hell.”

Dr. Lutzer: And you know, that’s how we-

Jim: How do we… Yeah, ho- ho- how do we process that? How do we get-

Dr. Lutzer: Well-

Jim: … on the right side of God on that?

Dr. Lutzer: (Laughs) That’s a very interesting way to put it. How do we get on the right side of God? I think that all of us always want to be on the right-

Jim: (Laughs)

Dr. Lutzer: … side of God. Right?

Jim: I would hope.

Dr. Lutzer: What we have to do is to magnify grace. You know, here, let me give you an illustration of Martin Luther. Luther struggled with sin. He of course, did all that the church required. It was never enough. The belief was that they are saved by grace, but you have to make yourself worthy of grace. So he did all the rituals and there was no satisfaction for his sin, no easing of the conscience until he uncovered the gospel that it is indeed a gift of faith. And then he said, “It was as if I walked through the doors of paradise, because now it didn’t matter how high God’s standard was, as long as I didn’t have to meet it. Jesus met it for me and my sins belonged to Jesus.” So what Luther does is he doesn’t minimize the sin. He magnifies grace.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: Because he understood, and maybe I’ve said this before, but it has to be shouted, he understood that the issue is not the greatness of the sin. The issue is the quality of the righteousness that has been attributed to those who believe the gospel and that righteousness is given to all people equally who repent. And that became the basis of the priesthood of the believer-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: … because now anyone who belongs to God can come to God directly because we all have the righteousness of Christ.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Erwin, I’m thinking the early church struggled with this a bit because Paul addresses it. And he, again, since we’re paraphrasing (laughs), he said something in effect like, “This doesn’t mean that you go on sinning.” Like we could translate-

Dr. Lutzer: Yes, of course.

Jim: … that to say, “Okay, God forgives our sin, therefore I’ll be forgiven if I commit this sin.” And Paul was addressing that saying, “No, no, no-”

Dr. Lutzer: No. He said, “God forbid.”

Jim: Right. So speak to that question because some might be thinking, “Okay, well if God’s grace is that’s sufficient, then it’s all covered. So if I sin, no big deal.”

Dr. Lutzer: And it is a big deal. And the way it becomes a big deal is that God disciplines his children who commit sin willingly and do so from a standpoint of knowledge and who think that they are going to have an advantage because of God’s grace. So we have to hold that intention. But if there’s anyone listening who says to himself or herself, “Well you know, I can then sin greatly because I can be forgiven,” you will discover that there is a payment that is to be made for sin. There are certain consequences that we can’t control. But more than that, God is going to discipline you. It says in the book of Hebrews, “If you’re not disciplined, you’re not a child of God.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So on the one hand, we preach grace, on the other hand, we don’t preach the kind of grace that gives people license to sin. That’s a very important point that has to be made.

Jim: Yes.

John: Mm-hmm. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us today. Dr. Erwin Lutzer is our guest and, uh, my s- such good content here as we talk about the conscience, uh, as we talk about sin and forgiveness and faith. Uh, find out more when you get a copy of the book from Dr. Lutzer. It’s called The Power of a Clear Conscience: Let God Free You From Your Past. Call us today for details 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Dr. Lutzer, we, the essence of your book is really here, five steps to deal with the conscience.

Dr. Lutzer: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And so in the last half of this program, we’ve gotta cover at least as many as we can. Um, let’s get to it. I think the first is understanding the healing power of God’s light. And I love that metaphor. How does, uh, that relate to a clear conscience?

Dr. Lutzer: Alright, very quickly, I base that on 1 John 1. First of all, the Bible says that God is light. And in Him there is no darkness at all. And yet at the same time it goes on to say that we are darkness. So the question is how do we who are darkness get in touch with God who is only light? And the answer actually is found there in verse nine that we’ve referenced before where it says, “If we confess our sins, He’s faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Now, the word confess means to agree together with God.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So we agree that we have sinned. We also agree that God has a right to take this sin from us forever. There’s a surrender, there’s a repentance there. And then God forgives us. So then what we need to do is to ask ourselves the question also, how do we deal with those whom we have wronged? Now, that’s a separate question, but I need to speak to it very briefly. To all those who are out there who are asking, “What do I have to confess to others? What don’t I have to confess?” I’m going to just give a very general answer. But Jesus said this in Matthew 5. He says, “If you are taking your gift to the altar and you remember that your brother has ought against you, leave your gift there. Go reconcile with your brother and then offer the gift.” What Jesus is saying is that reconciliation is incredibly important. And what you need to do is to make sure that you’ve done all you possibly can to be reconciled because it even precedes worship. Come and worship after you are reconciled. Now, to all those who are out there, I want to say that I’m not gonna tell you what needs to be confessed to somebody else and what doesn’t because that’s a matter of individuality. I suggest that you go to a counselor, I suggest that you go to a pastor, someone who’s wise-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: … who helps you process that. There’s something else I wanna mention and that is that a lot of things have to be confessed in the presence of another person. For example, when I was the pastor of Moody Church, a couple came to me and she confessed to her husband that their fourth child was not his.

Jim: Mm. Wow.

Dr. Lutzer: So you can imagine it was best that she confessed that with me present rather than doing it alone. So my burden for everyone who is listening is you have to take care of your conscience. You have to deal with issues before God and before man and then enjoy God.

Jim: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: Enjoy God.

Jim: It’s so good. Let me ask this because, uh, I think it’s important. I feel like there’s two big billboards in the New Testament, salvation through Christ and Christ alone and don’t become a Pharisee. I mean, those are screaming at us as we read the New Testament. But in fairness, the Pharisees were trying to live up to perfection. They were trying to live to the law, do everything correctly. And I think even today, Erwin, we have people in the Christian faith who live it well. They do a good job living to the commandments. Uh, you know, minor to your point earlier, kind of minor sins that they probably look at and say, “Lord, please forgive me that I said that or thought that about that person.” But the downside of that is it allows your heart to look critically at others who are not as good as you. And now we’re squarely in the pharisaical heart.

Dr. Lutzer: All right.

Jim: How do we avoid that?

Dr. Lutzer: I want everyone to take a deep breath. This is going to be a means I believe, of bringing some truth to people that I hope will be transforming. I pray that it will be. The Bible says in Hebrews 9 that the rituals of the Old Testament had some value, some value as rituals. But then it says, “How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal spirit offered himself without spot to God purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Jim, what you’ve described are dead works and they cannot cleanse the conscience. So let’s list some dead works out there. One of them is your description of people doing good. You know, they think to themselves, “I have to balance this scale.” I had a friend who said, whenever he came home from school and mowed the lawn without being asked, his mother used to say, “Well, what have you been up to now?” In other words (laughs) you know, we all wanna balance the scale and so we do good works or we have religious rituals, which is to your point, the Pharisees. I speak with a heavy heart because there may be people who are listening and they are committing a dead work of self-harm, cutting. Why? There’s something within them s- that says, “I have to pay for my sin. And because I have to pay for my sin, I have to do this and this and this, and I have to suffer.” Now think of the Scripture that I just quoted. “The blood of Jesus Christ, God’s Son cleanses our conscience from dead works.” So you’re delivered from this whole idea that righteousness comes because of what you do. It comes because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And I say to all those who are out there who are trying to even the scale, you cannot even the scale.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: Only Christ evens the scale. And that’s why He came and that’s why He died.

Jim: Yeah. So true. Dr. Lutzer, in covering one, I think we’ve covered a number of the five, if not all five, but let’s state them clearly so the listener can understand those five steps to dealing with your conscience.

Dr. Lutzer: Number one, realize that God is light. Number two, realize that we are dark. Number three, confession. Number four, receiving cleansing. That God is willing not only to forgive your sin, but to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. And number five is to enjoy God.

Jim: Let’s take a few minutes and concentrate on that one. To enjoy God. It almost feels irreligious or disrespectful. What, what does that mean? Help the person to say, “I, I don’t enjoy God. I respect and revere Him.”

Dr. Lutzer: You know, the older I get, Jim, the more time I spend just enjoying God. And the way I do it is to give Him praise and to give Him worship and to remind Him of something that He already knows, namely that I am His and that He is mine. But it’s a matter of learning to enjoy Him by giving Him praise. And it also releases you from a lot of burdens because you begin to realize that His shoulders are big enough to carry them. After all of the governments of the world are gonna be upon His shoulders, He certainly is strong enough to bear our burdens and we therefore are excited. You know, there’s a story of a woman who was, uh, walking along with a very heavy suitcase. A bus came along and she got onto the bus and she continued to stand in the aisle holding the suitcase. Somebody said, “Why don’t you put the suitcase down?” She said, “Well, I’m glad that the bus is carrying me. I can’t expect it to carry the suitcase too.”

Jim: (Laughs).

Dr. Lutzer: So I used that illustration to say to Christians, if you’re a believer, you’re on the bus, put your suitcase down.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: God is strong enough to carry it.

Jim: And that kind of fits with the next question I wanted to ask you, which is, uh, when we don’t hold onto God’s promises, it can cause us to hide or be silent. And instead of sharing Christ with confidence, how does shame and guilt, uh, affect our witness? And how can we respond in a healthy way?

Dr. Lutzer: Jim, I have to say that I read about a study that said that the reason that Christians do not share their faith is not because they don’t know enough. The major reason is because of unconquered sin. They say to themselves, “If Jesus has not delivered me from A, B, C, D, how can I share Him with others?”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So that becomes a great barrier because of the guilt that they are carrying, because of their own imperfections, because of their own possible addictions. And that’s why dealing with a conscience is so important not just for our wellbeing and God’s glory, but so that we might be able to witness with a sense of openness and joy. And joy in the Bible is indeed connected with a clear conscience. And so we can witness to other people. We can do so winsomely, yes, but also sometimes directly. Why? Because we know what Jesus has done for us-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: … and that gives us the confidence that we can pass along the faith to others that has been transforming to us.

Jim: Yes.

Dr. Lutzer: And when you have that sense of joy and faith in God, it’s easy to share the faith. And you can do so in many different situations just by asking questions. You don’t have to have all the answers, but you have to ask them where they are at. For example, when I witness to people, I always ask them this question, “Where are you on your spiritual journey?” I don’t ask whether or not they’re a Christian because that word has so many different definitions today. But I say, “Where are you on your spiritual journey?” And they will say, “Well, I used to go to church, but I don’t anymore. Or I’m an atheist or something.” And then what you do is continue to ask them questions about it. For example, I was in a European country recently, and I was interviewed actually on national television in that particular country.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: And as I was explaining the Christian faith, one of the interviewers says, “Yeah, but what about all the evil in the world?” Now that’s a difficult question.

Jim: Sure.

Dr. Lutzer: And of course, it’s come up many, many times.

Jim: Well, such as if God is real-

Dr. Lutzer: Yeah. Right. Right.

Jim: … why do babies die?

Dr. Lutzer: Right. Right. And so he was arguing basically for atheism, but I asked him this question, “How does atheism help you solve the problem of evil?” It is entirely hopeless if you’re an atheist. So what we have to do is we have to take situations, we have to use the opportunities to introduce Christ to people, and at the same time recognize that they will have questions that we might not have all the answers for, but let us give them a testimony of our own faith in Christ and the transformation that he has brought about.

Jim: Yeah. Erwin, right at the end here, I’m thinking of personal application for people, people listening. Um, maybe that mom, one of the observations I’ve had is moms and wives carry a lot of guilt and a lot of shame. “I’m not the wife I need to be. I’m not the mother I should be. My kids are outta control,” as if they’re responsible for all of that behavior outside of her ability. Um, the man’s situation might be, “I’m not the husband I should be, I’m not the leader in the home. I’m not spiritually capable.” Just fill in all those blanks. But in there is that residue of guilt and shame which can incapacitate us. What do you say to them to say, “Shake it off. This is the way to wake up tomorrow morning?”

Dr. Lutzer: First of all, I wanna mention a woman who said to me, “My mother owns the Midwest franchise for guilt distribution.”

Jim: (Laughs).

Dr. Lutzer: So there are parents out there who take their own guilt and they pass it on to their children. Without, in any way excusing our shortcomings or the things that we should be doing that we aren’t. What we have to do is to let God meet us where we are and say, “Yes Lord, you know how I have failed. You know how I have come short. I’ve not been the parent that I should be.” I mean, all of us look back.

Jim: Oh.

Dr. Lutzer: I look back and I think, wow-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: … I wish I had done A, B, C, D, right?

Jim: A do-over.

Dr. Lutzer: A do-over. But you know, there are no perfect parents. And it is amazing how God’s grace makes up for our own failings.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: I’ve seen kids come out of homes that I thought to myself, “This guy’s never going to amount to anything,” and yet God is using him mightily. So let’s remember the words of Spurgeon that you began with, namely that no matter how high the mountain of sin, God piles a mountain of grace that is higher. Having said that, let no one out there think that we are falling for this modern notion where grace enables us to live however we want to live without any regard for the Bible because there are those out there who want to misuse grace. That’s not where we are going. But at the same time, let us remember that where sin abounded grace abounded more.

Jim: Dr. Erwin Lutzer, I mean, this is the meat of the word. Thank you for thinking and living and communing with the Lord in such a way and writing these things in powerful books, not just this one. Uh, I hope you realize, wow, this is a resource I should get for myself or maybe somebody in your orbit, um, some, a family member or friend. The Power of a Clear Conscience: Let God Free You From Your Past. I, I can’t think of a person that doesn’t need this, really, and get ahold of us. Uh, we believe in the content so much that if you can’t afford to get, make a gift to Focus on the Family, um, just ask for the book and we’ll send it for free and we’ll trust others will cover the cost of that. If you can support us, uh, monthly, that’s great. Doesn’t have to be a large amount. It’s that predictability that helps, helps us do ministry together. I think from God’s economy, jump in, be part of bringing hope, the hope of the gospel to people. And that’s the invitation. Um, I hope you’ll, uh, respond and get a copy of this wonderful resource.

John: Mm-hmm. Call today. Uh, our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or you can donate at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And coming up next time, encouraging husbands to love their wives.

Jay Payleitner: Do what friends do. Do what lovers do, do what you did, uh, when, before you got married. Do what you did when the kids were little. Uh, again, be intentional about just the little things. And again, we’re not talking big money. We’re just talking about a little investment of what she likes and what she wants to do.