Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Preview:

Sheila Walsh: I believe that all those longings will be fulfilled in heaven. Artists will paint with colors they’ve never seen. Musicians will write songs that we’ve never heard those notes before. And all those things that are buried deep inside of us will come to fruition. I love what says that God gives you the desires of your heart, but I think He gives them, first of all. The Lord places those desires and giftedness. And I just can’t wait to see what that will look like when we’re home.
End of Preview

John Fuller: Well, that’s Sheila Walsh giving a really beautiful glimpse of what heaven will be like. And she’s our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thank you for joining us. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, Sheila is one of our fan favorites, right? The listener favorites. You enjoy hearing from her. She’s been at the, uh, broadcast a couple of times through different ways. Um something we call a Hitchcock. When we hear a presentation out and about at a church or something like that, we have a team member that’s listening for those and suggesting them for a program.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And Sheila, you have come through the Focus, uh, program in that way, but it’s so good to have you here in the studio. Thanks for being with us.

Sheila: It’s lovely to see you again, Jim, and to meet you John. I’m so happy to be here.

Jim: I just wanna get you in early. You know, your life story, which we’re gonna unfold a bit, and your desire for heaven is so beautiful. I’m looking forward for people to listen and to watch this, uh, is really inspirational. I know what’s gonna happen and people are gonna be touched by the way the Lord has worked in your life. The great stories that you have.

Sheila: Mm.

Jim: And you connect the dots in such wonderful ways. So thanks again for being here.

Sheila: Thank you.

John: Mm. And Sheila is of course a television host, a Grammy nominated singer, a Bible teacher, a speaker, best-selling author. She does a lot of things. And, uh, she has written a new book. It’s called The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything.

Jim: Sheila, when you look at it, um, in the book, you mentioned a lot of scripture, which is so wonderful, that’s what we’re based upon, right-

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: … as believers in Christ is the Word of God. Ecclesiastes, uh, 3:11 says, “He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, He has put eternity into man’s heart.” That’s kind of the basis. You know, even for the non-believer, there’s something that captures our imagination about, “Is there something next?”

John: Mm.

Jim: “Maybe, sort of, we hope.” Even the identification that that is in our heart as human beings is a clue to God’s beautiful creation of us, isn’t it?

Sheila: Yeah. C.S. Lewis wrote beautifully on that. If our hearts desires something more than we can see here, it must mean we’re made for something more.

Jim: In that context, though, you look around the globe, look at all the great religions. I mean, almost every human culture has an expression of this reaching for something eternal, something next. Which again, is evidence that God has stamped our heart for that journey.

Sheila: It’s a gift. I honestly think it’s a gift. I think we see it as, um, a disadvantage. So we’re always looking, always looking for that next thing. I see it as… I’ve learned now that nothing’s gonna be perfect, which has helped in my marriage. That’s why we’ve been married for 31 years (laughs).

Jim: Way to go.

John: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: Because you know that Barry was not designed to make me happy.

John: Mm.

Sheila: You know, I wasn’t designed to make him happy. We were designed to know Jesus. And so until we finally see Him face to face, there will always be that place that longs for Him.

Jim: And I think as you express it that way, it is the great equalizer of the playing field of humanity. I don’t care what your sexual orientation is, what your appetites are, what your drives and motivations are, money, whatever. It is the plague of humanity, if you try to fill that void with something other than God, you’re in a bad spot.

John: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: Yeah. I think one of the things I think… I was rereading Mere Christianity because my son read it when he… I read it years ago, then he read it in high school, and it was interesting seeing the parts he had underlined as-

John: Mm.

Sheila: … a high school student.

John: Oh, that’s great.

Sheila: ‘Cause he’s about to turn 29 now. But it was interesting. C.S. Lewis said that there’s three ways we deal with this ache, this longing. We either deal with it externally where we think something out there would fix it. Or internally, we almost come to a place of thinking, “You know what? This as good as life’s gonna get.” You know, we just kind of resign ourselves. But he offered the third solution, eternally. When we realize that we are eternal beings and that we haven’t even… I was reading something last night and somebody said to, uh, an author, and I don’t remember his name, “So do you think this is your best life?” And he said, “I have not begun to live my best life.”

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: Until we see Jesus face to face, and then we will never live anything less than our best life.

Jim: Right, so true. Well, you have a lot of humor in the book as well. I love, uh, you digging through a cabinet, looking for something-

Sheila: (laughs)

Jim: … and whipping your hair back. What happened?

Sheila: Well, it actually was the-

Jim: (laughs).

Sheila: … genesis of this book. I mean, I-

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: I was… I came across this jar of cream that my husband had bought for me at Christmas, and it was expensive. So I was trying to see if there was anything left in it because I’m Scottish and we use everything.

Jim: Well, let me just say before you continue, that was very bold of Barry to buy you beauty cream as your present.

John: (laughs)

Sheila: I know.

Jim: I don’t think I would take that move, but way to go, Barry.

Sheila: Well, that’s Instagram-

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: … for you. It fills you in in all the latest stuff (laughs).

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs).

Sheila: But, um, I realized there was a little left, but then I bent my head forward to flip my hair out of my face. And in that second, something snapped, and I thought I’d broken my neck.

Jim: Wow.

Sheila: I immediately threw up, I couldn’t move. And so Barry came up and he took me, we spent 18 hours in the emergency room. Um, MRIs, I mean, just everything.

John: Mm.

Sheila: Turned out that all I’d done was torn ligaments in my neck, which, you know…

Jim: Painful.

Sheila: … is painful, but not drastic. But while I was in that MRI and all the hours of waiting, I was like, “Lord, there’s something, there’s something wrong at the moment. You know, I’ve gone through all sorts of different experiences with you. I’ve walked through clinical depression with you. I’ve walked through being in a psychiatric hospital with you. But I feel at the moment as if there’s something that I’m missing.” And so I did what I always do. I dig into God’s Word.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: And I came across Hebrews 12, and this one verse shifted everything in me. Said, “Keep your eyes on Jesus who both began and finished this race we’re in. Study how he did it.”

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: “Because He never lost sight of where He was headed, that glorious finish in and with His Father.”

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: And I underlined that and I was like, “He never lost sight of where He was headed. He began and He finished this race we’re in.” And so that led me to a study of heaven, what can we know?

Jim: You know what’s so amazing about the Word? It’s right there. We just have to read it. I mean, it even tells you, “If you’re in me, here’s the fruit that people will see in you.”

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: The fruit of the Spirit, right?

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: Love, joy, peace. I mean, it’s very forthright. All we have to do is read it and know it and absorb it and meditate on it. And that’s maybe one of the great tragedies of today, we’re too busy to actually read the Word that’s eternal.

Sheila: I know, and we’re robbing our souls when we do that.

Jim: Right.

Sheila: We’re just… ‘Cause I went through years like that where it’d be like… I was brought up as a good little Baptist girl on the west coast of Scotland where you have-

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: … your quiet time every morning. And so it’s like, “Okay, well, I read the Word of God for 10 minutes, so I’m good to go.” As opposed to realizing, “No, this is like my daily bread.”

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: This is… And also something I love, um, years ago I read a thing by Athanasius, you know, guy in the fourth century. But he said this, “Whereas most of scripture speaks to us, the Psalms speak for us.”

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: “They give us a language of prayer.”

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: And so my dear friend, Dr. Jeremiah, sent me this little book, and he said, “Here’s what I think you should do,” because it was the Psalms and Proverbs, “Read three Psalms out loud every day.”

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: Let your ears hear while your eyes are reading.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: And that has been a game changer for me.

Jim: Boy, and again, just a simple practice that brings so much fruit-

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: … into your life. Sheila, you mentioned growing up in Scotland, um, you’ve shared about your dad, and he struggled with both physical health issues and mental health issues, and ended up taking his own life I think at 34, right?

Sheila: Yes.

Jim: Um, how old were you when he-

Sheila: I was five.

Jim: You were five years old. And you relate that story to how he changed, how, when he had a stroke, I believe, right?

Sheila: Yeah, he had a cerebral hemorrhage. And it went- it was really like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: Because my dad was my hero when I was a little girl. He was the “yes” in my life. My mom would tell me to be careful and my dad would say, “No, go for it. You’ve got it.” And so I just adored my dad.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: Wonderful Christian man, beautiful singing voice. But that cerebral hemorrhage, um, the way that pressed on his brain impacted his personality. And he went from being this loving, safe, kind father, to a difficult, confused, and ultimately violent stranger.

Jim: And you became the focal point of that pain for him, for some reason, that you, you couldn’t justify as a five-year-old. You didn’t know “What was I doing wrong?” right?

Sheila: No, but it’s interesting because it confused me as a child. He never hit my sister, never hit my brother. The only person he ever took his anger out on was me. But since then, a friend of mine who’s a neurosurgeon said that sometimes when there’s a significant brain injury, the person instinctively reaches out to the one person they believe will love them no matter what.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: So rather than it being an indication of a lack of relationship, in some strange way, it was actually his way of connecting with me. But you don’t understand that when you’re five.

Jim: Yeah, of course. And maybe if you’re 55-

Sheila: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: You don’t understand it. And, you know, so often, and we’ve talked about this where we share the loss of parents together, both my parents died by the time I was 11, 12.

Sheila: Mm.

Jim: And so we’ve talked about that. But so often when I speak, and I’m sure it’s true when you speak, you’ll have a line of people that still have great bitterness or weight or guilt or shame because of that lack of healthy parental connection.

But you said this in the book, and this is for everybody that would be in that line, or whatever journey the Lord has put you on, to teach you the things He wanted to teach you as a child. But this is so good, where you wrote, “We will not be judged by the last thing we did, but by the last thing Jesus did on the cross.” Boom.

Sheila: Don’t you love that?

Jim: I love it because it relieves the guilt.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: Even for your dad.

Sheila: And it’s the, it’s the gospel. It’s the truth.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: You know, it’s interesting because my father drowned himself. He was in a psychiatric hospital, and he escaped one night and drowned himself in the river behind the hospital. And I decided some years ago to go back. I wanted to retrace his footsteps. And so I didn’t even tell my mom because I knew she wouldn’t want to do that. But I went and I found myself at the river and I felt… I thought I would feel dread, and I didn’t. I felt the presence of Christ. And I felt as if the Lord said, “Sheila, he went from this river into my arms, and I carried him all the way home.”.

Jim: Ah.

Sheila: Because my dad was- I mean, he loved the Lord. He was a good guy.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: But once you have some kind of brain injury, you’re just not yourself.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: But I know that… And here’s what’s interesting. I was shocked to learn that my mom was scared to meet my dad again in heaven. Because he had become so violent toward the end-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: … that’s what terrified her. And it was only when I ended up at 34 in a psych hospital, and my mom flew over to do some sessions with me, that she began to unpack some of the pain of what had happened that she’d never spoken to anyone about because we’re Scottish. We just get on with life.

John: Yeah.

Jim: No, I so appreciate that. And-

John: Mm.

Jim: … I think this is a good place to mention, you know, at Focus here we have caring Christian counselors, you can call us. We want to be there for you if you’re in a place of pain like that. I don’t know of many organizations that will offer that, but we wanna be there for you. You can call and set an appointment, and they’ll call you back and kinda get an idea of where you’re at and some next steps you can take to get on the path of healing, spiritually, emotionally. And, uh, it’ll be a privilege. And John, you’ll give those details.

John: Yeah. In fact, let me just say, it’s 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Um, when you call, just ask to be connected to our counseling team, and they’ll arrange a time for a counselor to give you a call back.

Jim: Sheila, we’re talking about the hope of heaven, and I wanna, you know, we’re just kinda laying the groundwork a little bit here. But Revelation 21:4 says, “He (God) will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Uh, how does heaven restore in this life, that kind of brokenness, to have that hope of what’s coming when we’re broken here?

Sheila: You know, it’s so interesting, because I remember one Christmas, my mom and my sister and I are great readers. My mom read everything Charles Dickens wrote by the time she was 14.

Jim: Wow.

Sheila: And so, that would always be in our Christmas gifts. There would be a book, and I remember the year she gave me The Lion, The Witch, & The Wardrobe. And on Christmas Day, I’m reading it and I’m getting halfway through, and I come to the place where Aslan, the lion representing Christ, is slain. And I throw the book across the room, and my mom says, “What’s wrong with you?” And I said, “Aslan died. This is terrible. I hate this book.” And she said, “Then you need to read on.” I have kept that in mind all my life. If you find yourself in a tough place right now, then you need to read on-

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: … because the story’s not over.

Jim: Well, that’s so good-

Sheila: God has promised, not that everything is good or that everything feels good, but God has promised that He will bring good from everything that-

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: … happens in our life.

Jim: You know, Sheila, you have a, a great knack for looking at everyday life situations and applying them spiritually. I felt more in tune when I was a younger Christian that I could do that pretty well. I’d be at a stoplight going, “Lord, you had me stop at this red light so I can look at somebody and point to you (laughs).

John: Yeah, yeah, (laughs).

Jim: You know? I was just like on-

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: … fire for every moment. And I think at times, especially if you’ve been a Christian a long time, we can start to lose that perspective that there’s so many great spiritual analogies every day right in front of us, if we can see them. And in that context, uh, you say that you can know what heaven is and that we have a place there to belong. And you related it to a story where your son forgot his pass. Describe what happened and how that became a spiritual moment.

Sheila: For 20 years, I was part of something called Women of Faith. We had 30 conferences every year around the country. And my son was little at the time so I had a girl who would travel with me, so that just when I was on stage, Christian could be with her.

So I was over in the arena Friday night, I’m supposed to be speaking, and they have backstage passes. And to come to where the speakers are, you have to have an all-access pass. You can’t just have one to get to the bookstore or something. And, but they’d forgotten theirs. And I’m expecting them over for dinner, but they haven’t arrived. So I go to look for them, and I find them at the security desk. And they don’t have their passes, so they’re not gonna let them in. And Christian, who’s probably five at the time, sees me and says, “That’s my mom. I’m with her.”

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Sheila: And I thought the beautiful thing about that, is because of Jesus, we have an all-access pass into the presence of God. That if anybody, like, if you ever feel the enemy attack you and say, “Who do you think you are?” You can point to Jesus and say, “That’s my Savior. I’m with Him.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That is so good. Did Christian catch that? Did you parlay that into that message frame?

Sheila: Yeah, it’s funny, we’ve done that throughout his whole life. In fact, we’ve- if you walk up the stairs in our house, next time you come to Dallas, you need to come over and have a cup of tea.

Jim: (laughs).

Sheila: When you walk up the stairs, there’s this great picture of Christian, he’s six maybe, and he’s covered in chocolate. We’d had a birthday-

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: … party for one of the crew, and Christian had kind of basically dived into the cake, so he was covered in it. And I was wearing a cream suit that night. I remember because I’ve never worn it again (laughs).

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: And they were about to introduce me, and I, suddenly I hear this little voice behind me saying, “Mom.” And I knew he just wanted one more hug. And so I knew what was gonna happen. I bent down, and I hugged him, and I got covered in chocolate. And I have it framed because I said to him-

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: … “You don’t clean yourself up to come to your mom, and you don’t clean yourself up to come to your Heavenly Father.”

Jim: What a great lesson.

Sheila: You come as you are.

Jim: Yes.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: What a great lesson.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s so good.

John: Well, we’re loving the insights that, uh, Sheila Walsh is bringing today to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly about heaven. And, uh, we’ll encourage you to get a copy of her book, The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything. And, uh, you’ll find that book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Uh, obviously, heaven has, uh, a lot of different meanings to a lot of different people, uh, Sheila, but in terms of how we see heaven described, uh, in the scriptures, joy is a big part of that. What are other aspects of heaven that we can look forward to?

Sheila: Well, I think one of the most amazing things is that I think for the first time in our lives, we’ll be fully known. I think every single human being wants to be fully known and fully loved. But we’re so afraid if we were fully known, we wouldn’t be fully loved-

John: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: … that we trade away being known. And I think, I mean, I think a number of people who are watching this broadcast are listening in and think, “If people knew the real me, I would not be invited back to the party.” But in heaven, you will be fully known-

John: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: … and fully loved. Plus, I think, how cool will it be to sit down, like, I can’t wait to meet Paul and thank him for some of the insights he gave us about heaven. And to sit and talk to the Apostle John. I mean, I just-

John: (laughs)

Sheila: … love him because he’s got this great idea of, um-

John: Yeah.

Sheila: … he got it that he was loved by Jesus. Several times in his Gospel, he’ll say, “John, the apostle Jesus loved.”

John: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: You know? He just throws it in.

Jim: So good.

John: Yeah.

Sheila: So I just think it’s… And also, I think of somebody like my mom, who always wanted to be a teacher, but had to leave school at 14 to help her mother take care of my grandfather who was very ill with Alzheimer’s. And I think all those longings, I mean, I’m sure there’s not one person listening right now who doesn’t have something they think, “Gosh, I wonder what would’ve happened if I’d done that-“

Jim: (laughs)

John: Mm.

Sheila: “… or done that.” I believe that all those longings will be fulfilled in heaven. Artists will paint with colors they’ve never seen. Musicians will write songs that we’ve never heard those notes before. And all those things that are buried deep inside of us will come to fruition. I love what says that God gives you the desires of your heart, but I think He gives them, first of all. The Lord places those desires and giftedness. And I just can’t wait to see what that will look like when we’re-

John: Yeah.

Sheila: … home.

Jim: You know, in that regard, so often as Christians, we tend to look at living this life with high duty, high respect and responsibility. But the Lord also gave us this life to enjoy it, right? And I think sometimes we don’t translate that; we’re not the most joyful people.

Sheila: (laughs)

Jim: And we should be. Let’s move to that theme, uh, again of heaven. And I wanna ask you about, uh, some questions. Like, will we know our loved ones in heaven?

Sheila: I believe we will. I mean, I think we will recognize one another. Now, scripture makes it clear there’s no marriage in heaven, but I think we will know one another. People also ask, “Well, how old will they be?” I’ve gone to, and as many commentaries and, uh, you know, Ruth Graham, who was really like a spiritual mentor to me. Sometimes when Billy Graham would be off on a crusade, she would invite me to the house, and just kind of pour into my life.

Jim: Wow.

John: Mm.

Sheila: And so some of my most favorite books are books that Ruth gave me. And I studied as much as I could to see, what do people think? How old do they think we’ll be? Like if somebody died and they’re 99, are they 99 in heaven? If a baby was aborted, how old is that baby in heaven?

John: Mm.

Sheila: But most, the scarlet thread that went through all of them from the 15th century up till now, is most people think we’ll be about the prime of life, which might’ve been the age that Christ was when He gave up His life.

John: Yeah.

Sheila: That perhaps we’ll be 33, 34. We don’t know that. But I think we’ll be in the best that we could ever have been.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s a great thought. And again, these are just things for us to ponder.

Sheila: Sure.

Jim: The Lord has all these things already set for us. But let me ask this, you know, this is a question that people, non-believers particularly, they’ll ask, but unfortunately now a growing number of Christians will ask this. Why won’t everyone be in heaven?

John: Mm.

Sheila: It’s the widest narrow gate in the universe.

John: Mm.

Sheila: There’s never been a more important RSVP sent out on this Earth, this planet. I mean, Jesus made it very clear there is only one way, He said, “I am the way, I am the truth, I am life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” And so for people to say, “Well, that’s a very narrow thing.” But it is, it’s the widest narrow gate there is.

Jim: It’s a beautiful way-

Sheila: “Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Jim: Yeah, it’s a beautiful way to describe it. You know, that, that is true. Everybody is welcome.

Sheila: Yeah. Everybody’s welcome.

Jim: But not everybody will say yes.

Sheila: No.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: And that’s so hard.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: I have, uh, there’s a gentleman who writes to me once or twice a year, and it’s always about the fact that he’s still worried that his sons are not believers.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: And he’s done everything he can. And I tell him this story of one of my… When I was growing up in Scotland at our little church, I loved our Tuesday night prayer meeting. Now, there weren’t many of us, there was maybe just like 20 of us who would go. Um, but this one man from way up in the north of Scotland, every Tuesday prayed for his wife.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: And, you know, he would pray with tears rolling down his face. And she was a lovely lady, but she wouldn’t, she wouldn’t come to church. And I remember asking him one day, um, “Jimmy, do you wonder why God hasn’t answered that prayer?” And he was quiet for a moment and then he said, “He’s never failed me yet, lass, I don’t think He’ll start now.”

And it was after I got back from seminary and went to Jimmy’s funeral, I discovered it was at his service that she gave her life to Jesus.

Jim: Ah, yeah.

Sheila: A lifetime’s not too long to pray.

Jim: Yeah, that’s so beautiful.

Sheila: Mm.

Jim: I’m always encouraged, especially like an 80-year-old who comes to Christ.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: You know, they’ve lived it, they know, they know it, they know good and evil, and they finally relent. It’s always good.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: But it’s especially good when a seven, eight-year-old-

Sheila: Oh, I know.

Jim: … comes to Christ. I remember a letter that Dr. Dobson received from a family, and this little girl said, “I know I was a sinner and my whole life was being sinful.” She was like seven (laughs).

John: (laughs)

Sheila: (laughs)

Jim: I was going, “Man, what a great heart.” Uh-

John: Mm.

Jim: … you have a story about your dog, Charlie, I think that illustrates this salvation-

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … illustration. And, uh, what happened with, I think it involved a rain gutter or something.

Sheila: Yeah, he was a little West Highland White Terrier. I loved that wee dog, and he had a tennis ball that he loved to play with. And we were out one day and it’d been raining. We were in the park, and I’m throwing the tennis ball, but it went too far. It went out the gate and actually went down into a storm drain.

And I’m calling his name, but all he can see is this jolly tennis ball. And Charlie follows the ball and disappears into the storm drain. And I do everything I can to try and get him out of there, but there’s a big metal plate, I can’t move it, I’d break all my nails, start knocking on my neighbor’s doors. And one of my neighbors came out and he said, “Let me get a crowbar from the garage.”

So he and his teenage son came out, and they got the metal plate up. And we could see Charlie, he was about six feet down on a little ledge, shivering. And I thought, “If he slips off that ledge, we’ve lost him.”

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: And so the dad said, “Here’s what we’re gonna do. My son is tall and skinny. I’m gonna hold him by the ankles and lower him down.” That boy’s now in my will, by the way.

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Sheila: “I’m gonna lower him down, and he’s gonna…” And I said, “Just whenever you get to him, if he barks or bites you, or, please just hold on and don’t let go.” And he rescued my little dog.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: But I imagine, it’s just my imagination, a day in heaven’s courts where God the Father said to Jesus, “I’m gonna lower you down into the darkness.”

Jim: Ah.

Sheila: “And they’re not gonna treat you well.”

Jim: Great analogy.

Sheila: “Hold onto them.”

Jim: Sheila, again, I said this before, but your ability to bridge a common everyday story into a spiritual element or spiritual truth is great. And I think that’s why so many people connect with your storytelling and your ability to help us see that connection-

Sheila: Mm.

Jim: … in this life. Uh, sometimes again, the busyness of life, it gets obscured and we need those reminders from people that are constantly looking to say, “You know what? That reminds me of heaven,” and it’s beautiful.

So thank you for those reminders today. Let’s come back, uh, next time, and get more into those questions, if you can.

Sheila: Thanks, Jim.

Jim: What an amazing conversation with Sheila Walsh. And you know, I think Sheila losing her dad at just five years old, um, was devastating. I lost my mom at age nine, and it isn’t something you ever get over. Sheila has an amazing ability to take that pain that she experienced and provide hope to the person who feels hopeless in that moment. That’s why her book is called The Hope of Heaven, and that’s the hope we have in Jesus Christ. If you don’t have that hope, get in touch with us. We have counselors who will pray with you, and we have a great online resource called Coming Home, that will give you next steps for making Jesus Christ the Lord of your life. There’s far more in Sheila’s book, The Hope of Heaven, that we couldn’t cover today. We’re gonna come back next time to do a little bit more digging.

John: Yeah, but don’t wait to get your copy. Uh, when you make a donation of any amount to support this ministry, uh, just request Sheila’s book, The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything. We’ll send that to you as our way of saying thank you for partnering with us in ministry.

Jim: You know, John, a data point that I love to follow is, uh, how many people are coming to Christ through Focus on the Family each and every year? Well, last year, we saw 173,000 people come to Christ through Focus on the Family. That is awesome.

John: It’s incredible.

Jim: I think it’s the core metric for us. And for those who support us, you’re in this as well. That’s part of the harvest that we’re doing together. When you give financially to the ministry of Focus on the Family, either monthly or one-time gift, you become part of that work. And here’s why John said, “Don’t wait.” It’s almost the end of July and we’re looking for 1,200 monthly donors to partner with us in ministry for families across the world. By July 31st, when you give a monthly gift of $30 or more, we’ll send you a Focus on the Family branded tumbler, just like the ones we use here in the studio, and a four-ounce bag of my special blend, whole bean coffee. Now, John, it’s not like, I don’t know what that even means, a special-

John: (laughs)-

Jim: … blend.

John: … it’s…

Jim: John ends up blending it.

John: … this assortment of beans from a variety of-

Jim: (laughs)

John: … countries. This is a single origin from Guatemala.

Jim: And you can tell who the coffee expert is, but anyway, if you sign up, we’ll send you these things to say thank you. And we’ll send you a copy of Sheila’s great book, The Hope of Heaven. It’s a great deal, but we’re only able to offer this until July 31st, so contact us with a monthly gift of $30 or more and you’ll get all these great goodies.

John: Yeah, donate today and take advantage of this terrific offer, and get your copy of The Hope of Heaven as well. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459, or of course, we’ve got all the details online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back, as we continue the great conversation with Sheila Walsh, and once again, help your family thrive in Christ.

**********

Part 2:

Preview:
Sheila Walsh: I remember praying, “Lord, if you have any mercy, take me home. I don’t want to live anymore.”

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Sheila: But when you’ve had your life collapse and Christ has met you in that place, certain things just don’t matter so much anymore.

End of Preview

John Fuller: Well, that’s Sheila Walsh sharing a very powerful way to understand heaven and how that understanding can impact our lives right here on Earth. I’m John Fuller and welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim: Sheila Walsh is such a brilliant storyteller. I mean, it’s powerful when you listen to her. I think it’s partly her great Scottish accent, but her stories are meaningful. I mean, they’re deep and they grab you. We had to cut yesterday’s conversation short, but it was so good that we wanted to bring you the rest of the conversation today and tomorrow.

If you missed the show last time, we covered some of Sheila’s remarkable life story. She lost her father at just five years old, which led to a series of questions about God and eventually, left her in a psychiatric hospital at 32 years old.

Sheila’s testimony is powerful. So, if you missed yesterday’s conversation, contact us to get an audio copy or you can find the entire episode on the Focus on the Family Broadcast app.

Today, we’re going to cover some of the difficult questions that we wrestle with as Christians. And I believe the Bible provides robust answers like why do bad things happen? Or, where’s God in my disappointment?

John: Yeah. And Sheila has wrestled with those questions, and her life experience points to Jesus and the hope we have in Him for eternity.

Jim: Yeah, it’s so good. She’s taken a deep dive into what the Bible says about heaven. I think you’re really gonna enjoy today’s conversation. It’s the hope portion of these three days.

But if you’re in that spot and you’re wondering, “Does God really see me? Does God really want a relationship with me? Does He care?” We have resources for you here at Focus on the Family to address those questions.

John: Right. And one of the things that we have is immediately accessible through our website. It’s a terrific resource called Coming Home, which gives a great overview of what it means to follow Jesus and to experience life in Him. We also have Sheila Walsh’s terrific book, The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything. And you’ll find details about Sheila and these resources at our website.

Well, let’s go ahead and, uh, get back into the conversation. Here’s Sheila Walsh on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim: Sheila, welcome back for day two of this great discussion with this wonderful book, The Hope of Heaven.

Sheila: Thank you.

Jim: Uh, you really picked a good theme, didn’t you? It’s not the hope of this world. (laughs)

Sheila: No, if it was that, it would be a short book.

John: (laughs)

Jim: Yeah, The Hope of Heaven.

Sheila: A postcard.

Jim: Well, you start the book, uh, with this great exclamation, which is “I’m fed up with Earth.” (laughs) You sound like a fed up Christian when you look at this world. You know, Jean could so empathize, my wife, with that because there’s so much garbage around, you know, billboards and television and, you know, Super Bowl halftimes, you can’t let your kids sit and watch that anymore because it’s so sex laden, right?

We’re inundated with that stuff. And it’s completely right to say, “Lord, really? Why do I have to live through this before I get to you in heaven?” So what’s the answer to that question?

Sheila: You know, I think one of the things that I’m trying to shift away from as a believer is the mentality of just, “Get me out of here, Lord.” Because honestly, that’s how I was living. I was living thinking, “I’ll do my best for Jesus down here and I just wanna get out of here.”

But then I think the more I read the gospels through, over and over and over, and I really encourage that. Don’t just read, read them over and over if you can read them out loud because there’s things we’re missing all the time. And it talks about the kingdom of heaven. And when I think about the fact that the kingdom of heaven lives in us… One of my friends, you probably know him too, Sammy Rodriguez-

Jim: Oh yeah, Sam.

Sheila: Pastor, wonderful guy. He said to me the other day, “When we walk into a room as a believer, the atmosphere should shift because of who lives in us.” And I love that.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: So, I feel like… So, one of my daily prayers now, I never start a day without this. I say, “Lord, give me eyes today to see what I’m gonna miss. And give me ears to hear behind what somebody’s saying to what’s actually going on.” I remember a woman waiting to talk to me after a conference and she said, um, “I’m so mad with you.” And I said, “Talk to me about that.”

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: And she said, “You said something on the platform that cannot be true.” And I said, “What’s that?” She said, “You said that God is all powerful and that God is love.” And I said, “Yeah, I believe both of those.” And she said, “Then explain to me why I’ve buried two sons.”

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: “Either He’s all powerful, I’ve buried two sons, and He’s not loving. Or He’s loving, but He couldn’t stop my two boys dying.” And I think that’s one of the greatest questions-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: … that we wrestle with in life. Why does God allow these things to happen? And I would love to think that I suddenly came up with a wonderful answer. I don’t, but the only thing that I know is we’re not promised a life that’s free of trouble. In fact, the opposite. But we’re always promised the presence of Christ. So that’s why I pray for eyes.

You know, walking through the airport yesterday I’m looking at people, and I ask the Holy Spirit, ’cause I don’t wanna be a pest.

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: There’s nothing worse than being an evangelical pest.

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: But I look for people and I said, say, “Lord, is there anyone I should pray for?” And you wouldn’t believe how often. My Uber driver, um, driving to the airport, the Lord laid on my heart, you need to pray for this man. And I don’t even know if he speaks English, but I said, but I’ve learned to just shut up and listen to the Holy Spirit. So I said to him at the end, “Would you mind if I prayed for you?” And he nodded and I prayed for him. And he had tears rolling down his face. And I don’t need to know what’s going on.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: I just need to be obedient to what God’s doing.

Jim: Well, and He knows.

Sheila: Yeah, exactly.

Jim: So that makes even a greater impact.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: Especially if you say, “I feel like the Lord’s telling me to pray for you.”

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, that would blow somebody away, right?

Sheila: (laughs)

Jim: Like, wow. Okay. That’s beautiful though. Again, you weave in here so many great stories of regular day-by-day life into spiritual moments. You got a new car, (laughs) I think. And my wife, Jean, loved this story by the way. Tell us how that illustrated this concept of there’s a little something wrong with everything in this life.

Sheila: (laughs)

Jim: Maybe start there and explain that phrase.

Sheila: My husband is a perfectionist.

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: He thinks. In fact, it’s… my son and I, it’s driven us bonkers most of our, our life because he thinks everything needs to be perfect. And not, I mean, he’s not mean, my husband’s wonderful, but he just thinks like, if he gets a new car… I mean, we park like three zip codes over-

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: So nobody parks near the-

Jim: At the shopping-

Sheila: At the shopping, yes.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Yeah, nobody’s gonna scratch my car.

Sheila: (laughs) Exactly. And so, it was my turn to get a new car. And so, I mean, it’s nice. It’s a lovely car. So I park it out front of the house and I say to Barry, “Come on, I wanna show you something, because this is why I believe there’s a little-”

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: “… something wrong with everything.” And he stands there and he’s admiring it. And I pick up a little pebble and I ding the door. And he just about collapses. I mean, he’s ju- and I’m like, “You know what, Barry? This is life.”

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: “It looks lovely, but something is gonna happen along the line. (laughs) So let’s just accept that we get to live with life not being… with there being a little something wrong with everything.”

Jim: (laughs) I gotta be honest, I’m leaning with Barry on this one.

John: (laughs)

Sheila: Of course you are.

Jim: Like, “What are you doing?!” (laughs)

Sheila: Of course you are.

Jim: “We just spent money on this,” but I like the point-

Sheila: (laughs)

Jim: … that everything’s a little broken.

Sheila: Otherwise, we get annoyed with other people. You know, if people don’t quite live up to our expectations or their… You know, even, like, particularly around the holiday seasons, around Thanksgiving or Christmas when we’ve got people coming over, our relatives, and now, Aunt Martha is a vegan and won’t eat the turkey.

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: You know, and you just get so annoyed with people. But I think there’s something about having had your life collapse.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: I mean, really come to place… I remember praying, “Lord, if you have any mercy, take me home. I don’t want to live anymore.”

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: But when you’ve had your life collapse and Christ has met you in that place, certain things just don’t matter so much anymore.

Jim: But Sheila, I think this is the great human struggle though.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: People that bad things happen to them, uh, you have two responses. You get wrapped up in that bitterness, that questioning constantly in your head. “Why did this happen to me? Why did my two sons die? Why did my mother die? Why, why, why, why, why?” And you stay in that swish of questions that really erode your joy and your emotional ability to manage those things. Or the other path of, “Lord, I don’t know what’s happening. I can’t explain it. Nobody can explain it to me. I’ve tried, but I’m gonna trust you.”

It’s kinda where Paul says, be content in all things. Really? I much would’ve preferred he put “many” things.

Sheila: (laughs)

Jim: Right? So we had an out, but the Lord’s saying, be content in all things. “Lord, do you know the situation I’m in? How can you say that to me?” And then you have that struggle with the Lord and then go for it. Ask the Lord to show himself, however that may be. But speak to that basic struggle of what we have there in our human experience, this side of heaven.

Sheila: I think we struggle because we try to present a good front to God. We try to do… I remember seeing that with my son. My father-in-law moved in with us when my mother-in-law died, and he lived with us for two years, and it was fantastic because he let my son do things I would never let him do.

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: I mean, it was just perfect.

Jim: Like throw rocks at your car?

Sheila: (laughs) Oh no, he was in for that.

Jim: Bigger rocks. (laughs)

Sheila: (laughs) But I remember the night that William died. And my son was exactly the same age I was when my father died.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: He was five. And William had gone upstairs to take a, have a bath and he didn’t come back down. So I went upstairs, knocked on the door and he didn’t answer. So when I opened the door, he was laying on the floor, and his head was in a pool of blood. So I didn’t know if he’d bumped his head or had a heart attack. But, um, I cover him with a towel and I’m calling 911 and I hear my son coming up the stairs. So I’m trying to call to him and say, “Christian, just stay where you are, darling. I’ll be down in a minute.” But he doesn’t. The minute I get off the phone, he’s right there at the door. And he said, “What’s wrong?” And I said, “Papa’s hurt himself, but we’re gonna get some help.”

And he said, he asked me the most interesting question. He said, “Can I help?” And I remember-

Jim: Oh, wow.

Sheila: … how I was kept out of everything.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: We didn’t go to the grave site. We didn’t go to the funeral. We didn’t go to anything because we were children. And I said, “Yeah, you could help.” And I said, “Sit beside your papa and get a wet rag and put it on his forehead. And you know that silly song that you and he both sing? Sing it to him.” And… but I watched my son after… William passed that night. For the first few days, he did what I expected. He cried and he was sad. But then, we’d adopted this ginormous cat from the shelter.

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: And Christian loved this hairy beast, but I noticed him pushing her off the sofa. And I thought, “Interesting.” So I said, “Babe, let’s go for a walk.” And I said to him, “Are you angry?” And he said, “Yes, I’m angry.” I said, “Well, talk to me about that.” He said, “You told me that God answers prayers. And when we were following the ambulance to the hospital, I said, ‘God, please don’t take my papa.’”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: “And He took Him. So A, I don’t like Him, and B, I’m not talking to Him anymore.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: And I said, “Yeah, I, I totally get that.” So I drove him to the sports store, and I bought a boxing gloves and a punching bag. And I said, “Here’s the deal, babe. When you’re angry, hit that thing till you’re exhausted. But then you fall into the arms of the God who’s big enough to let you be angry.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: Because I think we think we’ve got to get it right and say the right things to the level that we’re willing to be honest with God is a level to how much we actually trust Him.

Jim: You know, Sheila, so many mom and dads are hearing that going, “Why didn’t I think of that…”

Sheila: (laughs)

Jim: “When I had that moment?” How do you bring that presence of everyday things that are going on, and some extraordinary, like that situation with your father dying and, but how do you have the presence of mind to say, “Okay, I need to be able to provide an object lesson here.” I mean, what triggers that?

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: What is in you?

Sheila: I think it’s because Jesus honestly is my best friend, I know people will say that.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: And I probably said it when I was younger. But I get it now that I have been promised this incredible companionship. So from the minute I wake up, I did it this morning, I’ll be like, “Good morning, Lord. I don’t know where we’re going today, but I’m coming with you.” And just looking for, you know, looking for moments.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: Even like I… when he was in carpool lane, uh, you know, when I was picking him up, I could always tell what kind of day he’d had. He wore it well. And I could tell this one day he was just in a bad place. And so, I drove him to the ice cream parlor because I knew he wouldn’t talk immediately. And eventually, he said, “Do you wanna know what happened to me?” And I was like, “Yes, I do.” And he said his best friend had knocked over his desk, Christian’s desk, and he got into trouble for it. And he said, “I told the teacher it wasn’t me. I told him that it was Chase.” And she’s… “I got in trouble for tattling.”

So I said to Chase at lunchtime, “You need to tell her that that was you.” And he said, “I’m not gonna tell her.” “So here’s the decision I’ve made, mom. Chase is no longer my best friend and he’s off my prayer list.”

Jim: Oh.

Sheila: And so, I said, “Yeah, I get that dude. Totally.”

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: So, um, but that night, I told him to go get this huge bag of flour I got from Costco. And I said, “Let’s go for a walk. You and I are gonna do an experiment.” So we walked and walked. And eventually, it’s so heavy, he drops it. And I said, “Christian, that’s what it looks like when you won’t forgive.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: “Your friend’s been probably sleeping for 20 minutes. You’re the one out here holding the flour. You want life to be fair. Fair does not live here, but Jesus does. And forgiveness is God’s gift to us to live in a world that is not fair.”

Jim: Mm. It’s so good. He’ll carry the flour for us, right?

Sheila: (laughs) He will carry the flour for us.

Jim: What a great lesson again. Uh, you speak about the bummer lambs.

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I’m not sure most people understand that. It’s just a beautiful illustration again of kind of the things we learn at the bottom, not at the top of life. Explain the bummer lamb.

Sheila: And it really came out of my childhood. My mom was a farm accountant. And so, she would do the accounts for the farmers and the shepherds, which meant that I would get early access to the spring lambs being born. And it’s the most beautiful site, but every now and again, a ewe will give birth to a lamb and immediately reject it. The shepherd can try and push the lamb back, but the mother will kick the lamb away.

So, if the shepherd doesn’t intervene, that lamb will die, not of hunger, but of a broken spirit. And they’re called bummer lambs. Happens in New Zealand. It happens everywhere.

So, the shepherd will take that little lamb into his home, feed it with a bottle, keep it warm by the fire. And at some point during every day, he’ll hold the lamb close to his heart to let it hear a heartbeat. But this is the part I loved. When the bummer lambs are strong, they’re put back with the rest of the flock. And the shepherd will come out in the morning and he’ll call, “Sheep, sheep, sheep.” The first ones to run to him are the bummer lambs because they know his voice.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: He doesn’t love them more than the rest of the flock, but they believe it. I will be a bummer lamb until the day I see Jesus face to face. But it’s not the bad news anymore. It’s the best news. Does Jesus love his bummer lambs more than rest? No. But we just actually dare to believe it.

Jim: Yeah. That’s so good. You know, there’s, uh, millions of marriages that we help to serve. We try to help them in their struggles and we hear their stories. And not just that, but parents and, you know, women that have had abortions and it just goes on. Anything that touches the family side. And man, we wanna hear from you, even with what Sheila is sharing if this is touching your heart. Uh, go to the website. We have a spot there and then, John, you can give some other details-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … of where people can leave the story of what, uh, perhaps even what Focus has helped you through or what your pain point has been and how God has shown up.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tell us your story. Uh, down at the bottom of our website, we’ve got a link to share your story. And of course, as Jim was saying, we’d love to hear how God is reaching into your life through this ministry. Uh, while you’re there at the website, look for a copy of Sheila’s terrific book, The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything. And once again, our website is focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Sheila, John 14:1 and 2 says, “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.” So, when you’re looking at that, what hope does heaven offer when it comes to our disappointments in this life? There’s so many people listening and watching, they’re living in that disappointment. And you can fill in the narrative.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: But this life is full of disappointment. Why do those promises of God, why do they give us hope?

Sheila: Because He promised that He was going to prepare a place for us.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: And that when the time was right, He would come and get us. And the, even the fact He said, “Don’t let your hearts be troubled,” helps us understand. He knows our hearts are gonna be troubled. You know, that we’re gonna have things that don’t make sense. We’re gonna have disappointments.

And the thing that I love about Christ’s life though, I think back to that night, His final night with his closest friends. And when they all walk down into the Garden of Gethsemane and Christ asks His closest buddies to come further with Him, but they’re exhausted and they fall asleep. And I love that Luke being the only one of the four gospel writers who’s a doctor, who actually gives us this detail that Christ sweat blood, which is a condition called hematidrosis, and it still happens today. But where it usually shows up is when people are being walked to their execution.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: It’s where you’re under the most extreme stress.

Jim: Death is imminent.

Sheila: Death is imminent. And… but here’s what I love. Jesus processed his pain in the presence of His Father. He didn’t sit down and say, “Well, you know, this has always been the plan. Let’s go. I’m ready.” It was… He was in agony of soul and spirit. And He poured that out. But I think when you tell God the truth, you make space for grace. When you hold onto all those feelings of being disappointed or being angry with God, but feeling, “Well, I can’t tell Him that.” It’s almost like you close the door.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: But when in His presence, when you tell Him the whole truth, I believe you make space for grace.

Jim: You know, Sheila, even that description is such a good reminder for us as believers who, we get our sight down kind of into this world rather than up into heaven to be able to have that presence to say, “Lord, okay. If you’re gonna take me in this path, I’m gonna grab as many people on the way as possible.” That is such a heaven forward-looking viewpoint.

You know, uh, again, back, not to toggle so boldly, but back to a more serious subject. Um, you’ve been really open about depression, anxiety that you’ve experienced. And now, you know, I think the CDC, some of the latest, uh, information and research from the CDC, Center for Disease Control, I think one bit of research I saw, 50% of 15 to 25-year-olds, 50% are struggling with anxiety and depression.

Kind of that post-COVID impact, but I’m sure the relentless bad news of everything, everything’s bad news, everything. And you can get it on your phone; you can get it certainly on your television. It just pounds us every day, 24/7.

How does scripture lift, or how should it lift, us up above that fray? And what helped you specifically to say, “Okay, I’m not gonna listen to those voices. I’m gonna read the Word.”

Sheila: Yeah. Well, a couple of things. One, I still take medication to this day. I take my little pill every morning with a prayer of thanksgiving that God has provided help for those of us who need that in this world.

Jim: Can I interject and just have you speak to the person who says, “If the Lord loves me, I wouldn’t need that medication.”

Sheila: But if you fell down and broke your leg, if the Lord loved you, would you break your leg? I mean, we don’t say to… I wouldn’t say to you, Jim, “Well, you’ve got glasses on, where’s your faith?” You know, you need to correct your vision.

Jim: Right. And I, I’m a full supporter of that.

Sheila: Oh, no, I know.

Jim: That’s why I wanted you to say it because so often, we don’t see it that way.

Sheila: No.

Jim: You know, and brain chemistry plays a role in how we’re feeling and how we express ourselves. So work with the Lord in-

Sheila: Absolutely.

Jim: … in the great science that He provided.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, it’s only through Him. We have those revelations, in my opinion.

Sheila: And honestly, initially, when I was in the psych hospital and I, my psychiatrist first wanted me to be on medication, I was like, “No, no, no. I don’t wanna walk around grinning, talking to some imaginary dog and drooling on myself.” He said, “No, those are street drugs. We don’t do those in here.”

Jim: (laughs)

Sheila: (laughs) But I came to understand that, you know, when your serotonin level is so low that some… it restores you to a place where you can be who God has called you to be.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: But if- when I read the Psalms, I have these volumes of this wonderful old British theologian will tell you what was happening in David’s life when he wrote that Psalm. And so, um, Psalm 34 is one of my favorites. I mean, we love it because it’s the Psalm that says, “The Lord is close to the broken-hearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.”

But it begins with, “Those who look to him for help will be radiant with joy.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: “No shadow of shame will touch their faces.” And at that point, David is on the run from Saul. He’s lied to a priest, and it’s gonna cost that priest and 80 other priests and their families their lives. He’s gone into another kingdom where, um, Goliath was from and he’s lied, he’s pretended he’s insane. The king kicks him out and he’s in a cave. And that’s when he writes Psalm 34.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: Because it starts with this terrible place he’s in, but then he shifts and he says, “But those who look to the Lord for help will be radiant with joy. No shadow of shame will touch their faces.” Shame does not belong to us. Christ took shame on Himself so that we can live without that.

Jim: Yeah. But again, such a battle of voices from within, right?

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: That you have to… Outside of that, I mean, reading the Word, what were some of the spiritual disciplines that really helped you cope-

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: … as well with those voices?

Sheila: Well, um, you know, it’s interesting. When you’re in a psych hospital, they take away everything you could potentially hurt yourself with. You know, like they took away my hairdryer, my makeup, anything. It all goes into the sharps box. But they left me with the one thing I could heal myself with. They left me with the Word of God.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: They didn’t take that away. And I remember that very first night when I was so afraid. I mean, I felt I’d made a mistake going there that, you know, would I ever get out of this place? My dad died in a psych hospital. Will I make it out of here?

But, and in the night, you know what it’s like in the middle of the night when you’re having, when all those thoughts come and it can be the hardest time to get through.

So, what I did was I would literally drag myself out of the bed and plant my feet on the floor. And I did not feel this, but I would repeat from Psalm 27, “I believe I will live to see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.” I’ve learned the only way I can counter the enemy’s lies is with the truth of the Word of God. And I start where I am. I mean- I… did I believe it that night? No, I did not believe it. But I still believe that the Word of God is true.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: And so, I- the nurse actually came in to check on me because (laughs) apparently, I was saying it quite loudly. She wanted to make sure I wasn’t actually thinking I was talking to somebody who was in the room. And I was like, “Nope, don’t worry. Talking to the Lord.”

Jim: Yeah. I mean, it’s so amazing. It’s one of the things that breaks my heart with, uh, a lot of seminary students that have gone to Ivy League, um, you know, schools of theology. I’ve got a few in mind. They lose their faith there.

Sheila: Isn’t that sad?

Jim: And I, you know, they’ll- I’ve talked to a couple of them and, you know, they’ll say, “Well, I just read so much. I didn’t believe the fables anymore.” And that’s such a dangerous place to be.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: The Word of God being true and believing it is the rock that we can rest on in this life.

Sheila: It’s interesting though. One of the things I find really encouraging at the moment, one of my friends who works with Amazon is talking about the fact of the number of young men who are ordering Bibles at the moment.

Jim: That’s encouraging.

Sheila: And that just blows me away. And my- one of my friends, I’m sure you know her too, Jenny Allen, you know-

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: We’ve been doing these crusades in all the different college campuses and there’s no bells and whistles. All the stuff that we thought, “Oh, we’ll make it look really professional like Vegas and people who love Jesus.” Well, probably not. We actually just need the Holy Spirit for that. So they’ll just have these incredible… They’ll preach the Gospel and then invite people to come forward. Thousands of young people are getting saved and getting baptized.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: And they don’t want all the bells and whistles. They just want Jesus.

Jim: Well, didn’t I tell you? She is awesome. Sheila Walsh is such a remarkable storyteller. And unfortunately, we had to cut today’s conversation short because we’re going to come back again tomorrow and continue the discussion with Sheila because she has more great insights about heaven that we want to make sure we share with you.

What Sheila said at the end there is so true. All you need is Jesus to make Him the Lord of your life. And I’ll tell you what, it’s the best decision you’ll ever make. If you’re in a spot where you’d like to learn more about what it means to become a part of God’s family, get in touch with us. We have caring Christian counselors and other resources that will help provide you the information you need to say yes-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to Jesus.

John: And, uh, certainly, one of the resources we would point you to is a little booklet called Coming Home. It’s online as a downloadable, uh, document and you can get that when you visit our website.

Also, when you get in touch, uh, please share how Focus on the Family has impacted you or someone in your family. We would love to hear from you. And, uh, we heard from Tammy in Illinois who told us, “Thank you for your commitment to helping marriages, families and the unborn. I’ve gleaned so much from your ministry and radio program over the last two years while raising our children and going through some marital struggles. I’ve ordered many books and I’ve learned so much, so, I thank you for your ministry.” What a terrific testimony that is.

Jim: Oh, it is. And thank you, Tammy, for sharing that with us. It encourages us. And I’m so glad the resources here at Focus on the Family have helped you in your marriage and parenting. That’s why we’re here.

Um, for a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family. We wanna make Sheila’s great book, The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything available to you. Uh, your financial support allows us to bring resources and the hope of Jesus to literally hundreds of thousands of families just like Tammy’s every day. But we can’t do it without you. So, donate. Get your copy and let’s do ministry together.

And I’ll add, for a limited time, we have a special offer when you request a copy of The Hope of Heaven for a monthly gift of $30 or more, we’ll send you a Focus on the Family branded mug, just like we use in the studio here, and a four-ounce bag of premium coffee selected by actually John.

John: (laughs)

Jim: John’s the coffee guy.

John: But it’s Jim’s Choice Coffee-

Jim: (laughs)

John: And it’s a terrific deal. The window to make that donation and receive the coffee and the mug is limited, so, contact us with your monthly gift of $30 or more by July 31st. And, uh, we’ll send the book to you as well, as Jim noted. And you’ll have the satisfaction of knowing that your dollars are going to help strengthen families literally around the world.

Now, we’re just a phone call away. Our number is 800, the letter, A, and the word, FAMILY. Or you can donate and get Sheila’s great book and, uh, access to this limited time offer at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Sheila Walsh. And once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

**********

Part 3:

Preview:

Sheila Walsh: And you’re being executed beside the only person in human history who could help you. And when he recognizes that and acknowledges Jesus, and Jesus says, “Today I tell you, you’ll be with me in paradise.” He didn’t say, “Now, um, are you gonna join a synagogue? You know, are… have you read the Torah? What’s your …” He asks nothing about his life. He simply says, “The fact that you’ve cried out and you recognize me, you will be with me in paradise.” What a gift.

End of Preview

John Fuller: Well, that’s Sheila Walsh from a previous Focus on the Family Show and, uh, she’s emphasizing the grace of God as expressed through the person of Jesus Christ in His remarkable work of redemption. And Sheila’s perspectives are pointing to heaven and, uh, she’s gonna be talking more today about how heaven impacts our lives here on Earth. We’re so glad you’ve joined us. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Sheila is such a good storyteller. We had to cut yesterday’s conversation a bit short, but as promised, we’re back with the rest of this great conversation. Last time, Sheila shared about why believers experience disappointments in this life. That may be where you’re at. Um, aren’t we all asking that same question? (Laughs).

She laid the foundation for the hope we have in Christ, in eternity, but also in everyday lives here on Earth as believers. And today, we’re going to continue the conversation talking about heaven, and we’ll cover a lot of frequently asked questions. And if you missed the program last time, uh, don’t be dismayed. Contact us to get an audio copy or you can find the entire episode on the Focus on the Family Broadcast app, where you can access actually all the broadcast content.

John: And Sheila Walsh is a Grammy nominated singer, author, Bible teacher, and a former television host, and brings a real heart for Jesus in the scriptures. You’re going to hear that today. Uh, she’s written a terrific book called The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything, and we’ve got that at our website. Uh, so Jim, here’s how you continued the conversation with Sheila Walsh on today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim: Now, I’ve got to ask this question. We’re gonna ask a few more, but, uh, do pets get into heaven? And I know pets are a big deal. Pets have, unfortunately, in my opinion, sorry, you can send me all the hate mail you want, but they’ve kinda taken the place of children for some people.

Sheila: Oh, that’s true.

Jim: But there, that is a legitimate question. So many people say, “Are pets gonna be in heaven?”

Sheila: There’ll definitely be animals in heaven. We know that. We know that Christ will be on a white horse. We know that, um, we’re told that the lion will lay down with the lamb. I remember a little girl asking Billy Graham, “Do you think my dog is gonna be in heaven?” And he asked her, “Would that make you happy?” And she said, “Yes.” And he said, “Then I’m pretty sure your dog will be in heaven.”

Jim: Oh, what a good answer.

Sheila: I’ve already… I’ve put in my requests that-

Jim: (Laughs).

Sheila: … I have this Maggie, this little, um, Yorkshire terrier who’s just so noisy. So I think she’ll be in heaven but not bark quite so much.

Jim: In the choir, maybe. (Laughs).

Sheila: Yeah, maybe she can be in the choir. (Laughs).

Jim: The endless barking, but that’s good. Your son’s plan to get your dog, I think, Bella? Is it Bella? Into heaven, what was that about? What was Christian aiming for there?

Sheila: Well, it was funny because, um, he thought that if you’re a human being, he knew that we could pray to go to heaven. But he wasn’t quite sure what our Bichon, Belle, would do. And so we’d gone to, uh, some theme park and he had a pink ticket. You had to have this pink ticket to get in. And I was gonna throw it away in the park and he was like, “No, mom, I, I have a plan for this.” And he brought that, and I saw it beside his bedside table, and I’m like, “Christian, you don’t need that ticket anymore.” He said, “Mom, it’s not for me. It’s for Belle.” And I said, “What’s it for Bell?” He says, “I’m thinking this might get her into heaven.” So he actually tucked it into Belle’s bed-

Jim: (Laughs).

Sheila: … because this was her pink ticket into the great unknown.

John: (Laughs).

Jim: You know, sometimes we overcomplicate heaven.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: You know, and we think of that. Don’t you think that makes the Lord smile?

Sheila: Of course.

Jim: A little boy’s faith-

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … putting that in her little night area.

Sheila: And-

Jim: Her little soft, comfy sleeping spot.

Sheila: The other thing that was so sweet, one Sunday in our church, a pastor was doing a message on the rapture. And when we came home, and at that point, we had three dogs. And at lunchtime, Christian said, “Okay, here’s the plan. You grab Belle, you grab Tink, and I’ll grab Maggie.”

Jim: (Laughs).

Sheila: (Laughs). He wanted to make sure that they were all covered.

Jim: That’s funny. Let’s jump into Matthew 25, the parable of the talent. You mentioned it in the book. What does that parable, that story, tell us about heaven?

Sheila: Well, you know, it’s interesting. You know when, you’ll see it on social media, when somebody dies, they’ll say, “Well done, good and faithful servant,” if they’re a believer.

Jim: Right. That’s what I wanna hear.

Sheila: Yeah. (Laughs). And I think to myself, “When did Jesus actually say that?” So I found myself studying that, this is Matthew 25. But He tells this parable of a master who goes away depicting himself. He gives to one of his servants five bags of silver, one gets two, and one gets one. And then he goes away and when he returns, the one who had five bags has now got 10. And Jesus says to him, “Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy I’ve prepared.” The one who had two has now got four. And, but here’s what’s interesting. He says exactly the same to him.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Sheila: He doesn’t say, “It’s not as great as 10, but you know, nice, nice try.” No, He says, “Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy.” The one who didn’t think they’d been given much, buried and did nothing, um, didn’t accept anything that God had given him and squandered it, and it was just wasted and buried. And so, what I love about that is you can look at… like people will listen to you, Jim, and think, well, what a gifted man. What a great communicator.

Jim: They just need to talk to Jean to find out what’s real. (Laughs).

Sheila: (Laughs).

John: (Laughs).

Sheila: That’s a whole other book. Yeah.

Jim: (Laughs).

Sheila: (Laughs). But you know, we look at certain people within the Christian community, and we think, well, “You’ve been given so many gifts.” It’s irrelevant.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: All that matters is what did Jesus give you? Whatever He gave you, when you use that for His kingdom, then you will hear, “Well done, good and faithful, servant.”

Jim: And on the flip side, sometimes people struggle with translating a parable-

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but that bearing of the talent, be very specific about what we should be appropriately fearful about in that regard when it comes to the spiritual gifts that God gives us. If we bury what God has given us, what are we gonna hear?

Sheila: Well, yeah.

Jim: And what does it look like?

Sheila: “Depart from me.” Yeah. I mean, there’s just … And I’m not sure how exactly to interpret that part. I’ve read lots of different commentaries and they all have slightly different angles on it. But yeah, you don’t want to … And I think too, when you bury the gift God has given you, He takes it away.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: You know? ‘Cause I think … Because I never feel like, “Oh, I’m ready for this. I’m equipped for this.” I’ve never gone on a TV show, on a platform, on a radio interview-

Jim: (Laughs). It’s hard to believe.

Sheila: … “Here I am, Lord.” No. Do you know what I do every single time? I did it in the hotel this morning. I have a moment and I hold my hands up and I say, “Lord, under-catered one more time.” Feeding of the 5,000. If there’s 5,000 men, there’s 9,000, 10,000 people. If there’s women, they’re snacks people.

Jim: (Laughs).

Sheila: That’s not the only food on the hillside. But the only one who gave what they had was the little boy. And Jesus, what He says in, I think it’s Mark that tells us this detail says, “What do you have?” And that’s all Jesus asks.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: So we bring our not enough and Jesus makes it more than enough.

Jim: Mm. Yeah. You know, I think one of the big misconceptions just generally, Christian, non-Christian, is judgment.

Sheila: Mm.

Jim: You know, just, I mean, is that not what most people say? “If God were loving, how could He be a judging God?” Or, if you’re a Christian, “How could you be a judging person, you’re told not to judge?” We hear that quite a bit. So these misconceptions about judging others, judgment, you reserved an entire chapter in the book about the rewards we’ll receive in heaven. Tell us about what that looks like. The judgment component and then the rewards that we receive in heaven.

Sheila: Well, we know that every believer will never stand before the great white throne judgment. I mean, that’s for those who have continuously, to the last breath, said no to Jesus. They’re the only ones. But anyone, whether you’ve been a Christian for 10 minutes or 50 years, when you’ve said yes to Jesus, you made him the Lord of your life, your name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. But every believer will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. And sometimes we think judgment, oh, yikes. But it’s not about that.

Paul’s writing to the church in Corinth, which is a great Grecian city, Olympic Games, and the Bema Seat is a place for rewards. It’s not a place for the kind of judgment we understand. When Paul wrote this to the Corinthians, they pictured that they knew exactly what he’s talking about. But it means that every single one of us gets to decide, that’s why how we live eternally is impacted by how we live now. Because if we will use our lives to bring people closer to Jesus to just show up, you know, Chuck Swindoll said to me, “Sheila, it’s the key to ministry. Show up.”

Jim: (Laughs).

Sheila: Um, then when we stand before Christ, and He’ll show us what our life looked like. It says that for some of us, it will burn away just like wood, hay, and stubble. Does it mean you don’t go to heaven? No, absolutely you go into heaven because you’ve trusted Christ. That’s all you need. Judged by the last thing Jesus did, not the last thing you did. But for some, what they will discover at their feet are precious jewels. And what do you do with them? You put them in a crown, and you throw them at His feet. I don’t want to stand empty-handed before Jesus. I want to know that I’m never gonna be Beth Moore or Sandy Patty or whoever, but I don’t have to. I just have to run in my own lane and be faithful to God.

John: Hmm. I so appreciate that, uh, perspective, Sheila. Uh, that is so important to me. I think the longer I live, the more I see the truth of what you’re saying there.

Uh, you’re listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and today some fascinating insights into heaven from Sheila Walsh. And, uh, her book is called The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything. We’ve got that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And you know, Sheila, you had mentioned earlier about how wide this narrow gate is that Jesus offers himself to us as. And I’m thinking about the thief on the cross. I just can’t, uh, forget that man who was nailed there and unable to do anything except just believe. And Jesus gave him the assurance that, uh, he would enter heaven. It’s so beautiful and so simple. Uh, what have you seen in that passage?

Sheila: I just think it’s one of the most remarkable things. All he did was recognize. His eyes were open and he recognized. And can you imagine, you’re about to take your final breaths, you’re being executed, and you’re being executed beside the only person in human history who could help you. And when he recognizes that and acknowledges Jesus and Jesus says, “Today I tell you, you’ll be with me in paradise.” He didn’t say, “Now, um, are you gonna join a synagogue? You know, are you… have you read the Torah? What’s your…” He asks nothing about his life. He simply says, “The fact that you’ve cried out and you recognize me, you will be with me in paradise.”

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: What a gift.

Jim: Yeah. That’s so good. You tell the story of Florence Chadwick.

Sheila: Oh, I love that.

Jim: I love that. I love when you say it because you have the great accent. But how does keeping our focus on heaven change the way we run the race here on Earth?

Sheila: She was an amazing woman. She was a, an incredible swimmer. She was the first woman to ever swim across the English Channel and back.

Jim: That’s why I remember her name.

Sheila: Really?

Jim: I knew the name, but I didn’t know the story.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: But she was that woman.

Sheila: She was that woman. But what she wanted to do was she wanted to … When I lived in California, I would see this. She wanted to swim from Catalina Island to the mainland. And she’d practiced a lot, and eventually she gets in the water with her coach and her mom in a boat and begins to swim. And she’s maybe, I don’t know, 18 hours into it, but this huge dense fog comes down. And she’s saying to her coach, “I, I’m done. I can’t do this.” And they’re like, “Come on, come on, you can do it, you can do it.” And she said, “No, I’m done.” And so they bring her into the boat, and she realizes she was less than a mile to the shore.

Jim: Ah.

Sheila: And what she said was, “If I could just have seen the shore, I know I would’ve made it.” And I think that’s the thing for us as believers. If we just keep our eyes on the shore, then we can finish this race.

Jim: You know, this might sound odd, Sheila, but in that pursuit, why are we so blinded to our mortality?

Sheila: (Laughs).

Jim: I mean, you don’t think about it. Especially young people, 20, 30 somethings. I mean, I’ll live ’til I’m 80 or 90. But even those 50s, 60s, 70 somethings, it’s not present. It… we might think about it in terms of what we gotta do, what we need to prepare for. But to your point, it’s not like looking at the shore of heaven.

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It seems to me we don’t really contemplate our last day, our last breath, and we’re all gonna face it. Nobody gets away from that.

Sheila: No, that’s-

Jim: So how do we do that? (Laughs). How do we put down this life, set it aside for a minute to look at the shore of heaven?

Sheila: You know, and I think realistically, we don’t live that way every day. We don’t live every single day thinking, “Well, if this was the last day of my life, what would I do and how would I live it?” But I think it’s this deeper understanding, it’s like this foundation stone of knowing.

Like, for example, one of the things I talk to my son about a lot is we need to celebrate every door that God closes, we need to celebrate as much as every door that God opens.

I wanted Christian to get into SMU for his graduate work. And I knew a couple of the professors. (Laughs). So I talked to a couple of the professors, tried to do my mother thing, you know, so ridiculous. Um, and he didn’t get in. He got into UNT Dallas. It turned out to be the perfect thing for him. It couldn’t have been better.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: So I think it’s like bring, inviting God into every moment to celebrate the disappointments, uh, or to learn to say, “Yeah, thank you, God. You closed that door. I don’t know why you closed it, but thank you that you closed it, and now I look forward to where you’re gonna open.”

Jim: I’m gonna give you a whiplash question here, but that whole example catches my attention. The mom that is trying to be the Holy Spirit.

Sheila: Oh, yeah.

Jim: And I don’t mean that ne- I don’t-

Sheila: No, sure.

Jim: … Dads can do it too. But I’m just saying that it’s like what you perceive to be healthy manipulation.

Sheila: (Laughs).

Jim: “I wanna create a good environment.”

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: “I want my child to go to the best school where they’ll have a spiritual framework. I’ll connect them with my friends.”

Sheila: (Laughs).

Jim: I mean, all… and you can put that into any context. Sports for your kid, whatever. Where do we draw that line to understand as a parent that God has a path for this child? That when our children hit a valley-

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … it will be good to be present, but to allow that child to go through the valley.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: ‘Cause we-… and I do it too, I am guilty of this. We wanna pluck that child out of the valley in their 20s-

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: … so that they don’t feel pain. They don’t have to experience something we experience as a 20-something, as a 18-year-old.

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: How do, uh, that is such a hard balance-

Sheila: I know.

Jim: … in parenting to say, “Lord, what is your wisdom in this?”

Sheila: I think that’s when we spend more time on our knees than opening our mouth. Um, I remember when Christian was at, um, he went to Texas A&M for his undergrad work. And he went through… I had taken him with me on many of my trips. Like I was speaking over at Hillsong in Australia and I took him. Ravi Zacharias, when I was doing the thing with Ravi, I took Christian with me. And then you hear all these devastating stories of people who fall and things. And he went through a period of being really disillusioned. And I… he said to me, “You know what, mom? I’m not, I’m not going to church at the moment.” And I’m like, “Okay. I understand that. Just don’t give up on Jesus.”

So then I move into a different mode. I move into prayer mode. Even when he had a girlfriend that we knew was a disaster, but I know him well enough to know if we’d said anything, we would have just pushed them closer. So my husband and I committed, we fasted and prayed one day a week for months and literally prayed her out of his life.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: I think it’s like allowing our children to hurt is very difficult.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: But if you don’t allow them to hurt, they never learn how to stand on their own.

Jim: And it feels schizophrenic.

Sheila: Yeah. Oh, I know.

Jim: You know, ’cause you want to jump in, you don’t, you know. And it… that is one of the hardest balancing points-

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: … for Christian parents particularly.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: “How much suffering do I allow before I intervene?” And you better go to the Lord ’cause I don’t know that we have enough wisdom to understand without God’s guidance where that line is.

Sheila: And I’m just-

Jim: You don’t want them to suffer, like going to jail.

Sheila: No.

Jim: You, you know, you wanna do what you can to fight the DUI and, you know, be helpful to them. But there is life lessons in-

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: … a lot of those bad situations.

Sheila: I think we do everything we can, but then we understand that there’s gonna be … And to me, it’s like when they hit … Christian did something in high school that was really stupid and it could’ve, they could have kicked him out of school. And it was devastating for him. And I remember, to me, the greatest thing I could do at that point was just walk beside him because, um, I wanted to make it all all right and I couldn’t. I had to kind of let go and just let things fall where they would.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: And, but at that point, to let our kids know that we don’t love you any less, that you’re not a bad person, you maybe did a bad thing, you are not a bad person.

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: That’s a totally different thing.

Jim: Especially a teen or-

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: … young 20-something.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, they’re coming into their own. They’re learning wisdom.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: And if we’re honest, I think we all did stupid things.

Sheila: Absolutely.

Jim: Not just Christian. (Laughs).

Sheila: (Laughs).

Jim: So pat them on the back for me. Sheila, speaking of people making poor choices, you included an interesting story about a man that Czar Nicholas of Russia encountered. Uh, what happened and what did it teach you about God’s heart for each of us?

Sheila: I think there’s so many beautiful pictures throughout history showing us pointed to Christ to what He did. But I read the story. I love Russian literature. I really love to read all the great Russian writers. But I read this one story about Czar Nicholas, that one night, um, he was walking around the army barracks with the Russian soldiers, and there was a light on in this one particular office. And he knew that was where the guy who does his, all the financial stuff was. And so he decided just to pop in and say hello.

But the guy was actually asleep with his head on the table with a gun beside him and a suicide note. And it was because he had, um, abused his position. He had used the money in ways he shouldn’t have. And there was absolutely no way he could repay it and get himself out of trouble in time. He knew he was about to be discovered.

And so he wrote this letter apologizing for what he did and saying, “There’s no one. There’s no one who can pay my debt.” And when Nicholas saw it, he was furious. He was gonna make sure, but he knew this boy’s dad. They had a relationship. And there was something about his angst and the fact he’d written the note.

And so what he did was he didn’t wake the boy, but he took a pen and he wrote on the bottom of it, “Yes, there is Czar Nicholas. He paid the debt himself.” And I think that is what Jesus does, you know? We can look at our lives-

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: … and think, “There’s no way I’m gonna get forgiven for this.” I get the privilege a lot of going into different prisons and spent time recently with three guys who are lifers, you know, they’re toe tag sentences, but they’ve found hope in Christ in that place. So, I think that when you understand, no matter how you’re coming to Jesus right now, He writes at the bottom of your story, “Paid in full.”

Jim: You know, so often in this life, we lean into the creature comforts. I mean, it’s nice to go to a home that’s warm and cozy in the winter and nice and air-conditioned in the summer, and to have cool drinks, and a barbecue out back. We can have a little July 4th party. The picture I’m trying to paint is just this idea of comfort over service-

Sheila: Mm.

Jim: … over what God commands. And I don’t think He wants us to be uncomfortable. I don’t think He wants us … And we live in a wonderful country where, I mean, even think of Focus, where donors support this ministry. And you know some of the same people I know probably because they, they support you as well as Focus. And you know, we’re doing all we can, but these people have built up businesses. They do well. And speak to that attitude that we should have as believers that are on fire for the Lord, who can manage that. A lot of the people I know give a lot of it away.

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, that’s amazing. Hobby Lobby, think of the Green family. 50% of what they make at Hobby Lobby, at Hobby Lobby, they give away every year. 50%. I mean, that makes me wanna go shop there and I-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I don’t- I’m not looking for a knickknack.

Sheila: (Laughs).

Jim: But speak to that comfort over doing spiritual disciplines even better.

Sheila: I think I find myself fascinated when Paul talks about that fact that he’s learned in whatever situation he finds himself in to be content. Um, when he has a lot, he, he experiences the joy of Christ in that. When he has very little, he experiences the joy of Christ and I think that’s it. If God has, I mean, Focus on the Family is one of the most phenomenal ministries available in this nation.

Jim: Aw.

Sheila: And the fact that people get behind this ministry and support it is wonderful. I mean, when we’re given… When God has placed things in our hands that we’re able to then encourage other people and build up other ministries, we should do that. But when you find yourself … I remember after my time in the psychiatric hospital, my house was sold and I was literally moved into a little apartment with two white plastic chairs from, um, Walmart.

Jim: (Laughs).

Sheila: And I remember sitting there, all I’d taken with me were my books. And I’d lived in a beautiful fancy house on the ocean. And now here I was in this little, and I thought, “You know what, Lord? The one thing that’s not changed is you. You’re here.”

Jim: Yeah.

Sheila: And so I just think wherever you find yourself in life, use everything God has given you to bless others.

Jim: Sheila, this has been so good. And right here at the end, uh, Pastor John Harper, he really understood heaven and it had a powerful impact on his ministry. But let me ask you, who was Pastor John Harper?

Sheila: I think I love him because he’s a- he was a Scottish pastor.

Jim: Of course you love him for that reason.

Sheila: (Laughs). But, um, and he’d lost his wife and he had one daughter. But he was invited to preach at Chicago at Moody Bible Church, which was a huge honor for somebody who’s, um, you know, from a small Scottish church.

So he gets on the boat with his sister and his daughter, and the ship is the Titanic.

Jim: Mm.

Sheila: And when the ship hits the iceberg and he makes sure that his sister and his daughter get into one of the lifeboats and then he’s given a life jacket, but there’s no boats left and he ended up in the water. But he’s so committed. He so understands the fact that the minute you take your last breath on this Earth, you take your first breath with the presence of the Lord. So he comes across another man in the water who doesn’t have a life jacket and he says to him, “Do you know Jesus?” And the man said, “No, I don’t.”

So he gives him this really simple basic plan of salvation. Then he takes off his life jacket, and he gives it to this man and John Harper disappears under the water. Five years later in Chicago, there’s a meeting of all of those who survived the Titanic. And that man stood up and said, “I was John Harper’s last convert.”

John: Mm.

Sheila: Because he knew he didn’t need that life jacket. He knew where he was going, and he knew I didn’t. And I prayed the prayer that night in the water.

Jim: Such a powerful story. And the irony is we’re all on the Titanic.

Sheila: It’s so true. (Laughs).

Jim: We are.

Sheila: Oh, it’s so true.

Jim: We just don’t know it.

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s going down.

Sheila: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And we’re all gonna have that last breath.

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: We’re all gonna go underwater.

John: Mm.

Jim: And man, what a great attitude. “Can I just reach one more person?”

Sheila: Yeah.

Jim: I love that illustration.

John: Mm.

Jim: Thank you for being with us. This has been delightful.

Sheila: I’ve loved it. Thank you so much for having me.

Jim: Well, Sheila is such an amazing storyteller and such a good person. You just feel it. And I’ve spent a little bit of time with her and her husband. They’re wonderful people.

Her book, The Hope of Heaven, is a must read. It’s packed with stories, biblical insights, and Sheila doesn’t pull any punches about the hard questions. If you’re feeling like, “Yeah, I’m that guy sinking with the Titanic,” get ahold of us. We’re here to help you. Um, there’s no excuse. Call the number. We have caring Christian counselors that can help you. That’s why we’re here.

And if you wanna be part of the ministry of Focus on the Family to help more people, uh, to be like Pastor John Harper and to get in the water with those who are drowning, needing to hear the good news of the Gospel, consider partnering with Focus on the Family. If you could do it monthly, that really helps, and a one-time gift is also great.

For a gift of any amount, we’ll send you a copy of Sheila’s book, The Hope of Heaven, as our way of saying thank you for being in the ministry with us. And I will also say now is a fantastic time to become a monthly donor for a gift of just $30 a month, we’re offering a special Focus on the Family mug, the ones we use here in the studio, along with a four-ounce bag of whole bean coffee.

John: And we call that Jim’s Choice. It’s really good.

Jim: (Laughs). Really good. Plus you get Sheila’s great book, but you have to contact us by the end of July, and that’s coming really soon, like tomorrow.

John: Yeah, it’s not too late though. Uh, you can make a tremendous impact when you support Focus on the Family. And, uh, we hear from people like Brenda from Texas who said, “In the early years of your ministry, my church used to share your resources with me as a young mother. God used those resources to help me navigate becoming a new mom and a new wife. Focus on the Family ministered deeply to me during that season. Right before I had my second child, my husband told me he was going to leave me, but God held onto me and carried me through that difficult time. Throughout the years, God has sustained our marriage through your resources, and your broadcasts and teachings truly kept me going during the hardest moments. Many times while driving, I would hear your broadcasts, and God used them to strengthen and encourage me.”

Jim: What a powerful testimony and it’s your generous donations that put godly resources into Brenda’s life and her marriage. And it’s your monthly donations that help keep our Christian counselors on the phone lines and our broadcasts on the air. They help a mom choose life for her baby and help marriages stay together. And we do this all just one person at a time trying to make a difference.

John: Yeah, join the team today and donate. Get your copy of The Hope of Heaven and take advantage of this limited time offer for coffee and the mug. Our phone number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or you can donate and, uh, get resources and the coffee and the mug at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And we’ve got an entire audio collection devoted to this topic of heaven. It will encourage you. It’ll offer great perspective. It’s free. And, uh, you can access the Remembering the Hope of Heaven Collection, which features John Burke, Pam Farrel, John Trent, and of course others. It’s available to you when you sign up on our website.

Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.