Day One
Preview:
Debra Fileta: I often say that it’s our trauma that we’re living out of rather than God’s truth. And I think part of the journey of emotional health for us as adults is to learn to replace what we’re believing from trauma and swap it out for God’s truth.
End of Preview
John Fuller: Debra Fileta is a licensed counselor and mom, and she’s our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and will be talking about the foundations of an emotionally healthy life. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: It’s funny, I thought you were gonna say a licensed mother and counselor.
John: (laughing) Well-
Jim: But that’s great.
John: Yeah.
Jim: I think that’s, uh, either one. But, uh, Debra is such a fan favorite. Every time she’s on the broadcast and podcast, you all love her.
John: Big response.
Jim: And, uh, it’s good. She connects and, uh, she knows her stuff. You know, talking about emotional health and well-being, every marriage and family starts with mom and dad, husband and wife as individuals, and then you come together and you’re bringing it all into the marriage. Jean and I have certainly experienced that. You and Dena-
John: Mm-hmm, totally.
Jim: … have experienced that. And then you gotta start working things out.
John: Yeah. And then you have kids-
Jim: (laughing)
John: … who just intensify all of that.
Jim: Yeah.
John: So we’re gonna be talking about general well-being in the whole family. Certainly it starts with, uh, mom and dad, but it extends to the kids. And Debra has been here a number of times. As Jim said, she’s written a number of books and, uh, the one we’re gonna be talking about today, actually, two, but the first is, Are You Really Okay? Uh, the second is a delightful little children’s book that Debra has written called Any Day Emotions. And we’ve got both of those available and details about Debra and her work, her ministry, uh, on our website, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Debra, welcome back. It’s always good to have you.
Debra: So good to be back with the two of you.
Jim: Oh, it’s fun. And John, your husband’s out in the audience area.
Debra: Yes.
Jim: And John, good to see you. I know you can’t respond, but you’re gonna make sure everything she says is true, correct?
Debra: Fact check. (laughing)
John: (laughing)
Jim: I’ll just be looking for the head nod, uh, from the gallery.
John: Yeah.
Jim: But Debra, uh, it is good to have you back, and people do connect with you. You’ve done a wonderful job in your profession of counselor being able to capture, you know, capture those things that God created, to finish that sentence. But, you know, one of the things, uh, so many Christians, we tend to not want to lean into the design and we are suspect of psychology. And there are, there’s egregious things in psychology, but when you blend it with God’s nature-
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: … and how God has formed the human body, the human mind, emotions come from Him. These are His things, right?
Debra: Right.
Jim: It, it, it makes it so much easier to understand, I think, as a lay person that reads literature on psychology, et cetera. Is that what you have found as well? I mean, it must be good to be a believer and go through the dynamics of studying what God has created.
Debra: Yeah. It’s amazing because God designed emotions. And I think sometimes in Christian culture in particular, we say faith over feelings or faith versus feelings, but really, feelings are the SOS system that God gave us and wants to use feelings to tell us, “Pay attention. Pay attention. There’s something here that I want you to pay attention to.” So when we take feelings and when we combine them with God’s truth, it takes us to a, a new level of-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: … health.
Jim: Yeah. You have a story that we’ve touched on before, and we’ll kick it off here in the book, uh, about your college car.
Debra: Oh, yeah.
Jim: Now, it’s kind of funny. I hadn’t thought about Jesus driving a car that acted like yours.
John: (laughing)
Jim: He could probably wave his hand and take care of this, but this car sounded like it was freakishly had a mind of its own.
Debra: It did.
Jim: What, what happened with this car?
Debra: I had this wild lemon of a car in college, and it was constantly breaking down. It was constantly, like, doing the craziest things. The alarm would go off. The windshield wipers would just start to wipe out of nowhere. Um, the locks wouldn’t work. One time I went in to try to unlock the car, put the key in the car, ’cause this was back in the day where you had to use a key.
Jim: Yeah, yeah.
Debra: And the whole lock cylinder came out on my key. So it was one of those things. And I could have dealt with those symptoms in a superficial way. I could have taken off the windshield wipers, I could have muffled the alarm, I could have taped up the windows that kept rolling down.
Jim: Auto windows going up and down without any-
Debra: They were going up and down, up and down.
Jim: (laughing) That’s crazy.
Debra: And, and sometimes while I was driving, this would happen. (laughing) I could have dealt with those things superficially, but it wasn’t getting to the root of the problem until I took it to the mechanic, and he said, “Hey, there’s some wires crossed here.” A friend of mine had tried to help me install a stereo system, crossed the wires, and it was a whole mess.
And I think oftentimes in our lives, we’ve got these things going on above the surface. We’ve got relationship issues, we’ve got anger issues, we’ve got addictions, we’ve got struggles, and we try to deal with it superficially instead of getting to the root. We try to tape it. We try to, to muffle it. We try to do things externally, but we’re not getting to the root of what’s really going on underneath the surface-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: … where the wires have been crossed to say, and when we begin to do that, to me that is the, the whole concept of emotional health is getting underneath the surface and inviting God to reveal what he wants to heal.
Jim: You know, I’m so impressed with the way scripture gives us metaphors, and like that, the car metaphor, same kind of modern-day scripture analysis, I think. You have a great formula for understanding emotional health. You say that our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are all connected. I think we understand that or implicitly get that, but what’s the distinction between thoughts, feelings, and behaviors? How do they all interact and work together?
Debra: Yeah. If you want to go on a journey of becoming healthy, keep that formula in your mind. And I find that it’s easiest to focus on the feeling first, because oftentimes that’s what we notice first. “I’m feeling anxious. I’m feeling worried. I’m feeling overwhelmed. I’m feeling insecure.” When a feeling starts to come up and it’s exaggerated or overwhelming, that’s a great time to stop and think, “What might be the underlying belief system here?” Because when you look at that formula, thoughts lead to feelings, which lead to behaviors.
Behind those feelings, there’s a thought process that’s so automatic, you don’t even realize you’re thinking those thoughts. Sometimes there are thoughts you’ve been thinking from childhood. They’re thought patterns. “I’m not good enough. I’ll never do anything right.” If those are some of your underlying thoughts, you are going to feel insecure, and when you feel insecure, it’s gonna affect what you do.
So thoughts lead to feelings, which lead to behaviors, and oftentimes, the easiest place for us as human beings to begin looking is when you see a big feeling come up. And that’s why these conversations are so important because when we talk about emotional health in the family, you cannot teach your kids emotional health until you’ve started grasping it for yourself. Research shows us that the number one way that we teach our children anything is through modeling, not through our words, our lessons. Our lessons are great, but what really matters is modeling that behavior. So when we’re able to grasp some of these things, it makes such a difference in how we show our kids how to be emotionally healthy.
Jim: Yeah. You know, the scripture says, “Take your thoughts captive.” So it doesn’t say you’re not going to have these thoughts.
Debra: Right.
Jim: It’s what you do with them-
Debra: Right.
Jim: … to take them captive, and then hopefully that restrains bad behavior, poor behavior, uh, bad feelings, et cetera. You know, Debra, I don’t think you cover this in the book, so this is extra credit in terms of the question. But when you look at social media, if you do, I mean, I-
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: … just, to be acquainted and to be knowledgeable, I’m scrolling through YouTube, and I kind of got rid of TikTok ’cause that was, uh, not happening for me, but scrolling through there, you see the most bizarre behavior. I mean, it’s exactly the negative of what you’re talking about. It’s like unfiltered thought leading to expressions of behavior that you’re going, “Oh my gosh, this woman’s like 35. I would not let my 12-year-old act like this.” What about that modeling that we’re seeing through social media and its impact on 13, 14, 15-year-olds?
Debra: Yes. Honestly, that’s why it’s all the more important that we take the role of modeling seriously, because when we’re silent, when we’re unintentional, when we’re not deliberate to model what we need to model to our families, someone else is modeling it on our behalf.
Jim: Mm. S- someone will fill that void for you.
Debra: Someone is speaking-
Jim: Wow, that’s scary.
Debra: … into the silence, and so-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: You know, I see it as not just a responsibility, but a privilege to be able to learn it myself, practice it myself, not perfect it ’cause we’re not perfect, but to practice it in order to show my children, “This is what emotional health looks like. This is what it looks like when you’re struggling with your feelings. This is what it looks like to unpack some of those negative thoughts and align them with God’s truth.”
Going back to that verse in Romans, another verse where it says, you know, do not conform to the patterns of this world. Don’t just do what everyone is telling you to do on social media. Do not conform to the patterns of this world. How? By the renewing of your mind.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: Transform your mind. It begins with your mind because your thoughts lead to your feelings, and your feelings lead to your behaviors.
Jim: Yeah. That’s really, really good. There are, you know, some occasional good examples that you’ll see out there, you know, people handling stress or confrontation in a good way. I tend to pass those on to my boys, say-
Debra: Yes.
Jim: “Check out how this guy handled this road rage,” or-
Debra: You’re right. You’re right.
Jim: And it’s a good example, you know. Far too much of the bad example, but there are even good clips of people being smart, you know, being right, being diligent, maybe even being Christ-like in how they respond to confrontation, which is always good too. You know, I, Jean and I, you may not know this, John, we watch a lot of Jeopardy.
Debra: Do you?
John: (laughing)
Jim: So I’m gonna put this in the form of a Jeopardy-
Debra: You got [inaudible 00:10:34] in your mind.
John: Yeah, I- I don’t know. I don’t think I would’ve known.
Jim: I just, we, we just sit there, and we even tape it, so we’ll watch three or four episodes in a row. There you go, something new, so okay.
John: You do.
Jim: But in that context, I’ll frame this in the form of a question. What is the shortest scripture in the Bible? And you would say, “What is Jesus wept?” (laughing)
Debra: That’s my son’s favorite verse because we have our kids memorize scripture on a regular basis.
Jim: And how does that show that emotional-
Debra: That’s the best verse ever.
John: Yeah, exactly.
Debra: It’s only two words long.
Jim: And how does that show the emotional stability of Jesus that he could show that kind of emotion?
Debra: I love that verse. And Jesus wept twice in scripture, once when he looked on the city of Jerusalem and, and He wept on their behalf, and then also at the death of His friend Lazarus. He grieved, even though He knew what He was about to do. He was about to raise him from the dead.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: But He still allowed Himself to feel the feelings of grief, because feelings are God’s gift to connect us to God and to others.
Jim: Mm.
Debra: If we don’t have feelings, we don’t have a motivation to connect to people, to connect to God. Feelings, when done right in God’s way, draw us to God and they draw us to others. And you know the verse after Jesus wept? He looked up to heaven and He gave thanks to the Father. He took the feeling of grief and instead of running to social media, running to alcohol, running to a numbing device, He allowed himself to feel grief, and then He ran to the Father.
Jim: Mm.
Debra: And that’s what emotions are meant to do. They’re meant to draw us to God and to others.
Jim: Well, that, that’s beautiful. What a great place to remind people, if you’re struggling in some area of your life, we have great Christian counselors here at Focus on the Family that will arrange a phone call with you and even refer you on to other counselors in your area. We keep a robust database of counselors, uh, all around the country.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: They go through a pretty strenuous vetting process that we apply to them as well to make sure that we feel good about those folks. And, uh, that’s all free. So just call us if you need help.
John: Yeah. We’re a phone call away. It’s 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, and we’ll also have, uh, further details about this Focus on the Family network of Christian counselors, uh, on our website. We’ll link to that at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: You know, Debra, I so appreciate that observation of Jesus. Obviously somebody saw that. They wrote it down in scripture for us, right?
Debra: Right.
Jim: So He was also vulnerable that way. He didn’t just go into a, uh, remote location.
Debra: Right.
Jim: He allowed someone to observe Him weeping and then praying to the Lord. Uh, in that context, stereotypically, men struggle with that kind of expression. We don’t want to be seen with tears rolling down our eyes. I know it’s ridiculous. You’re the counselor, but there are probably some women that feel that way as well, like showing it is weakness. And you’re saying no, it’s actually connecting you to something deep inside. What are some of those warning signs that there is emotional imbalance struggle. I, again, being a man, I can think only of my experience that we struggle with that to be able to recognize something’s dysfunctional.
Debra: Yeah, you’re right. A lot of people do struggle with this, and I think people assume it’s a personality thing. “Well, I’m just this way. I don’t feel big emotions.” But when you go back into your history, especially if you go back into your history with a counselor, there’s a good chance there have been things that you have been taught, things that you have believed about emotions, experiences that you’ve been through that have taught you to mute your emotions, to turn them down a little bit. Sometimes trauma will do that to us. When you go through traumatic things in order to survive them, it’s almost like your body naturally turns down the heightened emotion because it’s too much.
Jim: Right.
Debra: The problem is, if we don’t ever go back and face some of those things, our emotions stay on mute. And some might say, “Well, what’s wrong with your emotions staying on mute? It feels pretty good.” But if your sorrow is on mute, so is your joy.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: And, and, and so if you can’t feel the negative feelings deeply, there’s a good chance you’re also struggling to feel the positive ones deeply as well. And like I said a few minutes ago, God wants us to use those feelings to help us connect to others, to help us connect to Him. Sometimes when our feelings are muted, we struggle in relationships because people don’t feel as connected to us and they don’t understand why.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: But oftentimes it’s that deficit in our ability to feel our emotions.
Jim: Yeah. You know, again, another common stereotype, so I- I get it, don’t be triggered if (laughing), you know, this is touching a nerve for you, but a lot of husbands and wives in the marital counseling that we do here, you know, wives will feel like husbands are detached from their emotions. “I’m trying to get to you”-
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: … “and you’re just not present.” And this can become one of the great problems in the relationship-
Debra: Yeah, you’re right.
Jim: … is the wife doesn’t feel intimate connection and the husband’s going, “I don’t even speak that language”-
Debra: Right.
Jim: … “What are you talking about?”
Debra: You’re right.
Jim: “I do a good job providing. I, I show up. I don’t have affairs. I”, you know-
Debra: Right.
Jim: … “I’m a good guy.” And she’s saying, “Yeah, but I want more of you.”
Debra: Right.
Jim: Speak to both sides of that. How do you deliver as the husband and how do you back off a little for the wife?
Debra: I love that you used the phrase, “I don’t speak that language,” because I think what people need to understand is that part of this is a skill set. It’s a language that you learn and maybe it’s a language that you’ve never learned before, but it’s a language that’s going to help your relationships. It’s a language that God himself spoke, Jesus Himself speaks and wants us to learn. So when we see it that way, I think it’s even more motivating. It’s not just, “Oh, my wife just wants me to be more emotionally aware.” It’s, “God designed me to be more emotionally aware.”
And, you know, we live in a culture that sort of dumbs it down for men, unfortunately. They, they make men believe that they’re not very emotional. They even celebrate their lack of emotion, um, because it’s perceived as strength rather than insight and awareness. And so I think I’m grateful that the narrative has started to change. I’m grateful… You know, I have three boys and a girl. And let me tell you from experience, they are just as emotional as her.
Jim: (laughing)
Debra: Um, it’s just how we parent them either draws that out and teaches them how to use those emotions in a healthy way or it suppresses some of those things. So to the husband, there is a skill to be learned, and this is an exciting journey because God wants to take you deeper.
Jim: Well, and, and in part, um, you know, we, we’re comfortable there in that emotional hole.
Debra: You’re right. You’re right.
Jim: You know, we get really comfortable and, you know, I’m speaking somewhat out of my own experience here.
Debra: (laughing)
Jim: And you know, it, it, this is what it means to work-
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: … at your marriage for good things.
Debra: Right.
Jim: You know that you need to connect and we gotta get out of our comfort zone and we gotta stretch ourselves a little bit. So again, it, it could be the wife that’s in that spot, but the point being is, set your mind to doing-
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: … better and learning that language. That’s what you’re saying, and I totally agree.
Debra: And for the wife, I wanna say this. Oftentimes it’s not a deficit of love, it’s a deficit of skill.
Jim: But that’s interpreted that way, as a deficit of love.
Debra: Exactly. So, so to remind-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: … yourself, this isn’t a deficit of love. He loves me. He just doesn’t have this skill set, and we’re gonna work together to grow, um, and get there. So I think just even telling yourself that can be really helpful.
Jim: Yeah. No, it’s really good. And here’s the other thing that I’ve learned. Some of that difficulty in the marriage then is her attempt to pull him out, so some of the antagonism is to communicate. Is that fair? Do you know what I’m saying? In other words, in order for me to get to you a little deeper emotionally, I’m gonna enter into a battle with you so I can hear what you’re feeling.
Debra: Yeah, yeah.
Jim: And that’s unhealthy, but I get it.
Debra: Yeah, exactly. You don’t want it to turn into a battle, even with our spouses, with our children like, “Tell me what you’re feeling,” but we want to be deliberate in creating safe spaces-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: … that invite people in, not force them in.
Jim: Yeah. Speaking of that, we’re really touching on triggers. I mentioned that word a minute ago, and that could be kind of a buzzword, you know, for all of us. But, uh, what are triggers and what does an emotional trigger look like?
Debra: It’s my favorite topic.
Jim: And, and we all have them, right? We all have them.
Debra: Triggers are my favorite subject.
Jim: (laughing)
Debra: And I think it’s because I see so many of them in the counseling setting.
Jim: Are they predictable?
Debra: No.
Jim: I mean, do you see a set-
Debra: Not necessarily.
Jim: Okay, I wanna hear about that.
Debra: You don’t necessarily know what’s going to trigger someone because different people have different sore spots. So let me kind of explain how that works with this analogy. Um, I was leaving the house with the kids, and I wasn’t really paying attention. I was rushing. You know how it is. It’s like an Olympic event trying to get the kids outta the house in time.
Jim: Yes. (laughing)
Debra: And I hit my shoulder on the coat rack that was protruding out-
Jim: Mm.
Debra: … and it hurt. I was like, “Oh, that’s gonna leave a bruise.” And sure enough, there was a black and blue spot. There was a sore spot there later in the day. My husband comes home to give me a hug, “Hi honey, how was your day?” And he touches the sore spot without realizing that it was there. And I reacted, “Ow, that hurts,” and, and kind of pushed him away. He didn’t cause the sore spot-
Jim: Mm.
Debra: … but he pushed on it. And to me, that’s exactly what triggers are. Emotional triggers are these wounds that we carry from the past. And people push on them in intimate close relationships. If there’s no intimacy in your life, and by intimacy, I mean close relationships with your children, with your spouse, with friends, with family, if there’s nobody intimate and nearby, they’re not gonna push on your sore spots. You’re gonna feel great. But when people start to come close in proximity, they push on those sore spots without even realizing it, those wounds that we carry of rejection, of insecurity, of pain. And when people push on them, that’s when you see a big emotional reaction. I call it an exaggerated emotional response. And remember we talked a little while ago about thoughts lead to feelings-
Jim: Yes.
Debra: … which lead to behaviors. The trigger is the feeling, the big feeling. And so that’s where God wants us to stop and do a little work.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I’m smiling ’cause I think husbands call it the what? (laughing)
John: (laughing)
Jim: You know, you just, you say something.
Debra: Where did that come from?
Jim: It’s pretty benign, but she may react in this over-aggressive response and you’re trying to figure out, “What did I just say?”
Debra: Now, husbands do it too, you know. (laughing)
Jim: Oh, I know, I know, I know. But I, I’m only a husband. I can only feel it-
Debra: You’re right.
Jim: … from that perspective.
Debra: But it’s interesting. I, I definitely see it in husbands and wives. For example, I was just working with this couple, and every time the wife asked him a question like, “Well, are you gonna do that differently?” or, “Are we gonna go there?” He almost felt like she was questioning, attacking him, um, saying like, “You’re not good enough. You don’t know enough.” That’s not what she was saying. She was just asking a question, and he would react in anger. And, and so it was like, what is the trigger underneath the surface here? What is the wounding?
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: And oftentimes it’s God revealing to us what He wants to heal. So when you see a trigger in your life, when you see an over-exaggerated response, you should stop. Our tendency is to say, “Well, she triggered me. He triggered me. My, my husband triggered me. My wife triggered me. My boss triggered me.” But the question is, why was I triggered? What is God wanting to reveal that He wants to heal? What is the emotional sore spot here? That’s where God can do some really good work.
Jim: Well, it- it’s a magnificent blind spot-
Debra: You’re right.
Jim: … because it’s hard for us with those triggers, with those wounds to know in the moment the question, what’s happening more deeply in me-
Debra: You’re right.
Jim: … that causes me to react that way?
Debra: And that’s why it’s important to review the film-
Jim: Yeah. (laughing)
Debra: … to look for patterns-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: … when you see these reactions over. “Well, every time my wife asks me a question, I start to feel tense and anxious and upset.” Well, okay, let’s review the film here. Just like, you know, in sports, they always review the film like, “What could we have done differently?” It’s important for us to review the film in our own life as well-
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: … not just to move on blindly.
Jim: Yeah. Would you say this is generally true, uh, that a, a wife, a mom who has gone through childhood trauma of some sort, whatever it might be, emotional abuse, physical abuse, something, they tend to have more excessive worry?
Debra: Absolutely.
Jim: For obvious reasons.
Debra: Absolutely. And not only that, sometimes we think of big T trauma like abuse, neglect. Sometimes it’s small traumas over a long period of time. For example, I think of the woman who I worked with who took care of her ailing mother. Her mom was always sick. Her mom was struggling. There was always a diagnosis. There was cancer. There was so many different things over a period of time. You don’t think of that as a big T trauma. There was no abuse. It was a a, a healthy Christian family. But the fact that there was always something, there was always something that could go wrong, imagine what that does to your nervous system.
Jim: Absolutely.
Debra: You’re always waiting for the shoe to drop, and then you carry that with you through the rest of life. I often say that it’s our trauma that we’re living out of rather than God’s truth. And I think part of the journey of emotional health for us as adults is to learn to replace what we’re believing from trauma and swap it out for God’s truth.
Jim: Wow, like the Lord, go to the Father and give thanks.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: Man, that’s, that’s so good.
Debra: What does the Bible say? What does God want me to believe?
Jim: Um, I think it was UCLA that you noted in the book came out with a, a study that showed that couples spend about 35 minutes a week in meaningful conversation. So what are some of those things as a knowledgeable professional that you’ve done in your own family, for you and John, for example, to do the best you can do with that kind of intimate communication?
Debra: Yeah. So number one, it starts with us checking in with ourselves before God. Like, you have to have insight. You have to make space to check in on your emotional world. Number two is John and I connecting on that level. So every Sunday night we have our check-in night at 9:00 PM where we sit and talk. We check in. “How are you doing personally with your personal life, your sins, your struggles? What have you been feeling? What is God teaching you? How are we doing in our marriage?” We go deeper. Um, and we make it an intentional practice. It has transformed our marriage, every single week, without fail. Um, and it’s, you know, we started it about seven years into our marriage and we’ve been married for almost 18 years now. It has made such a difference.
And out of that, out of the overflow of that, number three, we can connect with our kids around the dinner table. “How are you guys feeling? What were your highs and lows?” We make emotional conversation a part of our everyday life. It’s not just when something horrible happens. It’s a part of our everyday routine because we want our kids, boys and girl, to know that this is how God created you. God gave you emotions. Let’s use them to connect with Him and to connect with others.
Jim: Yeah, which is the point. And, uh, what a great first day. We’re gonna come back next time and talk about a book you’ve written for children. But this is great. I think, uh, everybody’s feeling that sense of why so many people love to hear from you. You just hit it, and you apply the scriptural truth to it. And I so appreciate you being with us. Thanks for this.
Debra: Oh, thank you. Thanks. What an honor to come back again.
Jim: Aw.
Debra: It’s so good to be with the two of you.
Jim: It’s so good. I think, uh, every rational person should wanna get a copy of Are you Okay: Getting Real About Who You Are, How You’re Doing, and Why it Matters. And we make it so easy. You know, we’re doing ministry here. We’re listener-supported, viewer-supported. And so if you can, just make a gift of any amount. We’ll send you a copy of the book along with, uh, the children’s book-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … we’re gonna do. We’ll do a bundle for you, both for, uh, you as an adult and then a children’s book version of the same theme. And, uh, that’s our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry, and together we can then help more people.
John: Yeah. You can get your copy, the bundle of these two books, Any Day Emotions and Are You Really Okay, uh, at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast, or call 1-800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459.
And thanks for joining us today for Focus on The Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Debra, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Day Two
Debra Fileta: I am not scared or concerned of all of these emotional explosions that I’m seeing. I see them as an invitation.
End of Preview
John Fuller: Huh.
Debra: God wants to heal us from the inside out. He wants to heal our families. He wants to heal our marriages. He wants to heal our country.
Jim Daly: Yeah.
Debra: And so when we see these things happening, we can panic or we can say, okay, this is an let’s lean into it.
John: That’s counselor and mom, Debra Fileta. And she joins us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for being here. I’m John Fuller.
Jim: You know, John, last time we talked with Debra, we kind of laid that foundation for emotional health in adults, married couples, moms and dads. And we talked about breaking negative patterns, relinquishing that emotional baggage that we bring in from our childhood, uh, traumas that we might have. Debra even said, these can be even little things that just cumulatively add up and they, uh, create triggers in us. And when we push each other’s buttons, that’s how we respond. But as Christians, we’re not supposed to stay there.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, we need to grow in Christ and turn to the father, uh, to help mend those broken places. And if you missed the program last time, uh, get our smartphone app and you can have access to all the programs or go to the website and download it. It’s accessible to you. And it’s one of those ones I think you really want to see. And you could do that through YouTube as well.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We’ve got, uh, pretty much every channel covered.
Jim: (laughs).
John: And we would ask you to share about this show with friends because there’s so much good content that we cover in all of these episodes. Well, Debra has been here a number of times, and, uh, she’s written a couple of books we’re bundling the grown-up book that she wrote, Are You Really OK? Getting Real About Who You Are, How You’re Doing, And Why It Matters. Along with that children’s book, Any Day Emotions, it’s a great little tale that helps you as a parent, unpack emotions with your children. Get the details at our website, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Debra, welcome back.
Debra: It’s good to be back.
Jim: You know, in thinking about talking with you today, I was thinking about us as Christians, uh, uh, you know, moms and dads, and how we struggle with things still. We haven’t got it perfected. We’re trying. But whether it’s anger like we talked about last time, or over worrying or whatever it might be, boy, your kids see it.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And I think we have an illusion sometimes as the adult that we can hide that. But kids have a unique way of knowing us, maybe sometimes better than we even know ourselves.
Debra: You’re right. They can tell; they can sense it. And when it comes to emotional expression, I don’t believe there’s a need to hide it. Um, I think of Jesus and how He modeled emotional expression to the people around Him, to His disciples. He wasn’t hiding away, expressing His emotions. He expressed them right there in front of them. I think of the Garden of Gethsemane at some of His most vulnerable moments of sorrow and grief. He didn’t hide away from them. He invited them into it. And so, one of the best ways that we teach our kids how to handle emotions is by showing them how we manage our emotions and doing that to the best of our ability.
Jim: Yeah. I think that’s so good. You mentioned that emotional contagion, uh, you’re kind of touching on that, but is that the concept is how to emit the right emotional vibes as the parent?
Debra: Yeah. There’s this funny clips on Instagram where a parent walks in and pretends, um, that they got hurt, or a parent walks in and pretends that there’s something scary, or a parent walks in and starts to act really joyful. And it’s interesting to watch the child’s reaction begins to mimic the parent’s reaction.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: So, so let’s say a parent walks in and pretends that there’s something scary on the floor and jumps away, the kid will jump away as well, even though there’s nothing there.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: And that is the concept in psychology that we call emotional contagion, and the fact that our emotions, whether or not we want them to, whether or not we mean them to begin to overflow on the people around us.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. That’s so good. You know, I think, uh, not being trained, uh, professionally in this area, some parents probably feel overwhelmed. We don’t understand completely what the right thing to do in modeling for our kids, et cetera. I remember one time with Trent, Trent, he was our hard, strong-willed kid.
John: Yes.
Debra: Yeah, yeah.
Jim: And Troy was so compliant. It was night and day.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: But Trent, you know, he had, he got some discipline. And I remember one time he just clammed up. And it, you know, it’s the balsa spoon. I remember one time he said to me, “Dad, that didn’t even hurt.”
Debra: (laughs).
Jim: And, uh, I said, “Well, you know, okay.” But I remember one time disciplining him like that, and, and he just clammed up.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And I remember talking to him, and he wouldn’t respond verbally to me. And I said, “Would you be able to write down what you’re feeling?” And he gives me this nod.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: Like one shake of the head. So I went and got him a pen and paper. I said, well, what does it feel like when you’ve misbehaved and I’m disciplining you? And he wrote, “It feels like you don’t love me.”
Debra: Aw.
Jim: Isn’t that awesome?
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, and he was probably, he was able to write, so he may have been eight-ish.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, you know, it, it, it opened up an opportunity for me to talk with him. And I was so grateful for his ability to communicate that, you know, he went right to the core of it.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: You know, “If you spank me, it feels like…” “You spanked me because I hit my brother.”
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: What’s the difference?
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: It’s that kinda logic.
Debra: Right. Right.
Jim: And it did catch me, and I was like, eh, I did back down on that.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And found different ways.
Debra: I think that’s wise.
Jim: You know, like taking that’s a toy or-
Debra: Yes.
Jim: You know, ’cause it was communicating something I didn’t intend for it to communicate.
Debra: And you invited him to share.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: If you wouldn’t have invited him to share, there’s a good chance he wouldn’t have shared, right?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Debra: And I think that’s where we as parents have to open our eyes for the opportunity to invite our children. It’s not, “I need you to do this. Tell me how you’re feeling. You better talk.” It’s an invitation. It’s creating opportunities to talk with them. And that’s one of the reasons I’m really excited about this particular work is because I believe it’s a conversation starter. It’s an invitation for children and parents to sit down and talk through 13 different emotions that they might not otherwise know how to talk about. And not just, here’s what the emotion feels like, but here’s the healthy way to respond to it. So hopefully it’s an invitation to a lot of families to go a little bit deeper.
Jim: Yeah. And I, you know, one of the things for us as parents, I mean, we’re looking sometimes very superficially at our own emotions, you know?
Debra: Right.
Jim: We don’t understand them very well either. Then to become that parent and intentionally begin to help them understand, our children understand the emotions they’re feeling.
Debra: Right.
Jim: I mean, you, you really can make an art out of this, and you should as a parent. This is a way you get to know your child and what helps them respond and what… You’re shaping their personalities, their responses, et cetera.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: So I just find it really important to be engaged that way and deal with anger and deal with those things in a more deeper way.
Debra: And here’s why this matters to us as parents. When the disciples ask Jesus, “What is the greatest commandment?” Jesus said, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.” And those are four different compartments of who we are. They’re four different quadrants. Jesus could have just said, “Love the Lord your God.” But he was intentional in saying, heart, soul, mind and strength, your emotional health, your spiritual health, your mental health, your physical health. All of those quadrants matter. And often as parents, we focus on the spiritual health, we focus on the physical health. Sometimes though, the emotional health component gets neglected. And so that’s why it’s really important for us to be intentional about having these conversations.
Jim: Since you raised this, uh, I had some observation of parents behaving poorly at sporting events.
Debra: (laughs).
John: (laughs).
Jim: Jean actually went to one baseball game that Troy was playing in, and she told me about two of the dads that were so on their kids when they were at bat. You know, they struck out, I mean, verbally shaming them-
Debra: Right.
Jim: As they walked away from the plate. So unhealthy.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, I just felt so bad, even when she expressed it to me, I just felt like, wow, if that father knew the damage that he was doing. So speak to that idea. Yeah. Concentrating purely on the physical.
Debra: Yeah. Sometimes we have a tendency to affirm our children based on what they do rather than who they are. I mean, think about your encouragement. First of all, we’re not good at affirmation in general. I think generally speaking, the rule of thumb in psychology is five affirmations to one critique. I think we’re not even close to that most of the time.
Jim: (laughs).
Debra: But then when we do affirm our children, we’re affirming them on, “Oh, good job getting good grades,” or “Great job cleaning the house.” But we also need to be intentional on affirming them for who they are.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: “I love having you as a son.” “It’s so fun to just be with you.” “I enjoy your company.” Who they are as a person, not just what they do. And think about how God looks at us. It’s not, we, Lord knows, it’s not because of what we do, because so many times we miss the mark, but because of who we are. And so it’s important for us to think of our kids in that way, um, and help affirm that part of them.
Jim: Yeah. It’s so true. I mean, that’s a good place for a parent to always go back to, right? To do the restart. How does God treat you?
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And once try treating your children that way.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, that’s a great idea. Uh, you’re open with the fact that that one of your sons, in fact you said that this book is kind of embraces your children’s-
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: Own emotional issues-
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And opportunities. But in that context, one of your sons who struggles with anger, um, how did you help ’em process that?
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And how is it described in the book?
Debra: This book has been fun for all of us. I mean, it’d be fun to have my kids here for an interview of what does it feel like to have a mom-
Jim: That would be fun.
Debra: Whose a counselor.
Jim: (laughs). That would be fun.
Debra: Because we’re constantly talking about these things. Um, I’ve taught my kids that emotions are like a volcano. And when the pressure begins to build and you’re ignoring it, it will build and build and build. And just like a volcano, it hits the point where it finds the path of least resistance. And there’s an emotional explosion. And whether that emotional explosion is an argument or you do something wrong, or in adults we have emotional explosions that could look like addictions or marriage issues. It’s because we’ve neglected to deal with what’s going on underneath the surface of the volcano. And so, one of my boys, I’ve, I’ve talked with him a lot about really identifying what’s happening in the volcano. So if he has a moment where he loses it, he has an anger outburst, we’ll stop and we’ll review the film together and he will say, “Okay, I think I did that because this morning the breakfast I wanted wasn’t available. My brother ate it before I could. So that was about 20% of my feelings. And then I didn’t do a good job of my homework. So that was 30%.” And he’ll give me percentages.
Jim: Wow.
Debra: He’s very mathematical.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: So he’ll give me percentages of what was going on underneath of the vol- volcano and the different things he was feeling. And it’s really helped him to conceptualize what’s happening underneath the surface of his life and not just to assume that you can just blow up and move on.
Jim: Well, and in such a clear way, you’re helping provide coping mechanisms for him with his anger issue, which is a great parenting tool, right? That’s what you want as an outcome.
Debra: Yeah. You, you want them to start to have these conversations, to think differently about what’s happening. We talked in the last conversation about how our thoughts lead to our feelings, which then lead to our behaviors. So the feeling portion of this equation is a really important one to help our kids navigate.
Jim: You know, when you look at scripture, particularly the Old Testament, I’m so glad the Lord took the time to make, uh, different people write the Old Testament and New Testament as well. But when you look at it, there’s so many misfits in there.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: It, which is us.
Debra: A lot of dysfunction.
Jim: Yeah. There’s a lot of dysfunction in the Old Testament. I mean, manipulation, families, I mean, the whole bit. Obviously, the Lord wanted us to have that record so that we could see ourselves in there.
Debra: Right. Right.
Jim: And realize we need him. So with all that said, when you look at that and you look at children, and again, you’re looking at those typical issues like your son with anger and others with guilt and sadness, excitement, all those emotions. Do you sometimes tie that to a spiritual truth for your kids when you’re doing your children’s devotional time to say, you know, that’s just like what King David experienced?
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: Or whatever.
Debra: Absolutely. And I also remind them that God created emotions as a signal. God created emotions to give us a signal to pay attention to, pay attention. Something’s going on here that I want you to address. I remind them that God created emotions to help us connect to Him and to connect to others. So these emotions are not bad. Even when you feel anger, that’s not bad.
Jim: Oh, that’s healthy.
Debra: It’s how you handle the anger-
Jim: That’s good.
Debra: That leads you into unhealthy territory or healthy territory. I’m fine with your anger. I’m fine with you feeling these emotions. Now. What are we gonna do with ’em?
Jim: Mm.
John: Mm.
Jim: That’s good.
John: Yeah. This is, uh, really good stuff for me personally.
Jim: (laughs).
John: I hope it’s good for you too as a listener and viewer. Uh, get a copy of the two books that are kind of informing our conversation today. There’s a grownup book. Are You Really OK?. And then the kids book is Any Day Emotions. And we’re bundling these for you, and you can get your copies at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Debra anxiety, uh, seems to be on the rise. The CDC Center for Disease, uh, has identified anxiety and depression on the rise. Something like, uh, one study I read 50% of kids 15 to 25. And now, you know, I use that loosely, young adults, have experienced heightened anxiety or depression, suicidal ideation, et cetera. What is going on? What, you know, the country that by most measuring sticks has the most material ability. You don’t go wanting, you’re not hungry, typically. You have phones, you have education, you have the things that modernity will give you. And yet we’re desperately anxious. What’s happening?
Debra: Yeah. Number one, I think we have too much going on.
Jim: Too much going on?
Debra: When we think about what our capacity is and what we can hold, what we can handle. We have overwhelmed our body. We’ve overwhelmed our senses with all the many things. There’s so much stimulation, there’s so much on our schedule, there’s so many expectations of us. And I think that is transferring onto our children.
Jim: Mm.
Debra: All these different things that they believe are expected of them, rather than what Jesus says, “Only one thing is needed.” Remember he says that to Martha and Mary? Mary, Martha was anxious.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: There’s so much going on here.
Jim: I love Martha.
Debra: So much going on. Mary was focused on the one thing. And I think when we stray from that one thing, loving God and loving others, it starts to pile up. You know, all these things on social media, all these expectations of children, all of the things you’re supposed to do, like you were saying, sports. And you’re supposed to look a certain way and your grades and friends. And it’s overwhelming. And I think our job in our home is to begin to model to our kids the concept that only one thing really matters here, it’s our relationship with one another, our relationship with God. Um, and begin to get them back to baseline.
John: Yeah.
Jim: In that context, how has that been, uh, amplified through COVID and what we had to go through as COVID? I’m thinking Troy, my son, who was a junior senior.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: They didn’t have prom the senior year prom was at a place, but they taped in cohorts. They actually taped on the floor, like an area that 10 to 12 students could stand in and you had to remain in that area at the prom.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And then you can go out into an open-air deck to which every student was out on the deck. Nobody stayed in their taped-in cohort area. Just that weird stuff, right? It’s like, this seems damaging.
Debra: When you think about the volcano analogy and the pressure that’s going on underneath the surface. And then you add global and universal trauma to that. Even people who didn’t feel like their pressure was very high, found themselves struggling with emotional explosions during that season and beyond. And so we’re in a season as counselors where we’re kind of cleaning up the mess, but in a good way. Um, I see that God has brought these things up to the surface of our lives because he’s inviting us to heal and to do it better and to face some of these things, um, to alleviate some of that underlying pressure in a healthy way. And so, I guess I would say as a counselor, I’m not scared or concerned of all of these emotional explosions that I’m seeing. I see them as an invitation.
Jim: Huh.
Debra: God wants to heal us from the inside out. He wants to heal our families. He wants to heal our marriages. He wants to heal our country.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: And so when we see these things happening, we can panic or we can say, okay, this is an invitation. Let’s lean into it.
Jim: Debra, so often mental health issues, they’re not things that we typically are thinking about or dealing with. And I’ve described it, it’s like seeing a car wreck and you’re asking yourself, am I really seeing what I think I’m seeing? What are some of those ways that our antenna can be out there so we’re not deceiving ourselves that everything’s fine.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: And when it’s not-
Debra: Right,
Jim: And we tend to want to lean that direction. I’m sure my child’s fine, but underneath it, they’re bullied. Something’s happening.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: How, how do we pick up on the signals? And then how do we act on those?
Debra: We want everything to be okay. And it even goes back to the title of my book, Are You Really OK? Because there comes a time when we just have to be a little bit more direct with people and ask them the hard questions. Like, “Hey, how are you doing? What’s going on? I’ve noticed these patterns.” Um, sometimes we’re even afraid of bringing up the word suicide because we don’t wanna put it in someone’s head. But if they’re already thinking about it and we’re just ignoring it, we’re not doing them a favor. “Are you struggling with these type of thoughts? Are you having any suicidal thoughts? Are you struggling with depression? How can we support you?” And then taking the next step. Sometimes that next step means a psychological assessment. Sometimes it means working with a counselor and bringing someone in to help you on your journey. Just as, as we would look at physical issues and go to a doctor.
Jim: Right.
Debra: It is very important for us to see the mental and emotional struggle and then move our family to the help we need with a professional counselor. Um, instead of just ignoring it and avoiding it until it gets worse and worse and worse.
Jim: Yeah. I would think, and this is my temperament, I’m a half full kind of guy. I mean, I wake up and it’s just, it’s half full right from the get-go. We probably are prone to ignoring signals.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: Because we just want it to be good. You know, it just needs to be good. Let’s pick up our bootstraps and go. And, uh, I think if I am real about those weaknesses, for me, that would be one. And that’s where you have to be aware of yourself and not blow by-
Debra: Right.
Jim: What your spouse or what your children may be feeling, ’cause they’re wired differently from you.
Debra: Yeah. And not only that, we need to be intentional about having these type of check-in conversations with our kids before we get to the point where the alarms are going off. We wanna create a culture where it’s normal every day to say, “How are you doing? How are you feeling? You struggling with stress? What are you stressed about? Are you depressed? What are you depressed about? What’s, what are you afraid of?” Um, I have this activity that I’ll often encourage parents to do. Where they outline, it’s almost like a gingerbread man outline. Or you could just draw an outline of a person. And especially with young kids, this can be really great. And you give them a few different markers. Maybe blue represents sadness, and red represents anger, and yellow represents joy. And you can decide what colors represent what feeling, and ask them to draw how much of this feeling do you feel in your body? And you’ll be surprised.
Jim: Oh, amazing. Yeah.
Debra: Um, I remember with one of my boys specifically thinking the whole body’s gonna be red with anger.
Jim: (laughs).
Debra: But it wasn’t. He had a little portion that was red, and that’s the part where he said, “Mom, I do struggle with losing my temper, but underneath the surface I’m also feeling a little worry, a little fear, some joy.” His half of his body was yellow, which surprised me. But it was a good conversation. And, and then my daughter, I had her do this at a really young age, and she presents as joyful, responsible, positive. She’s the first born.
Jim: Yep.
Debra: But as a little girl, when I had her do this activity, the majority of her body was orange for worry, which I wouldn’t have otherwise known that she was struggling with these worries underneath the surface and just certain things that were going on inside of her that she wasn’t presenting that way. So these are activities that you can do to help your kids open up, and for these emotional conversations to be a routine part of your life.
Jim: Yeah. I think, and that’s a, a brilliant way. I hadn’t thought of doing it that way with colors at a younger age. And then that hopefully will develop into dinner conversation-
Debra: Exactly.
Jim: That’s meaningful. And find out where your kids are at as they get older. And then it, you know, it, that’s something we’ve tried to practice, you know, to have that open communication, et cetera.
Debra: And that’s where it’s important for us to understand that dealing with these emotions is not a once and done experience. They’re gonna come up over and over and over again, and every time they come up, I see it as an opportunity to do something with this feeling. Um, am I gonna allow the fear to overwhelm me and ruin my day? Or am I, I take this fear and give it to God, connect with him, connect with others, renew my mind with the right thoughts. Fear is just a signal that my body is processing something, and now it’s a matter of how am I gonna process this emotion? Um, I don’t think it means that you’re not supposed to feel the feelings of fear.
Jim: Yeah. The fact that it says fear not means you are feeling fear.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: To, to say fear not means you’re fearful.
Debra: Right.
Jim: (laughs).
Debra: It means you’re fearful of, of something. Right. But I don’t think the Bible is telling us you should not have the feeling of fear.
Jim: Right. I agree.
Debra: I think it’s this, the underlying belief. What, what are you thinking about? What do you really believe? What do you do with this feeling when it comes up? Are you, are you connecting with God and others when the feeling comes up or not? And specifically in that case of fear not, um, most of the time when that specific phrase was used, it was in the context of an angel appearing and something that the, you know?
Jim: Yeah. (laughs).
Debra: Their body was probably like, what is going on here?
Jim: It’s interesting, every time that an angel appears, they say, “Fear not.”
Debra: Because who, who wouldn’t be afraid?
Jim: They must look intensely intimidating.
Debra: I know. And and you think about that in the context where God is assuring his children, this is what I want you to know. This is what I want you to believe when your, when your body is struggling with these underlying feelings of fear, here’s what you should do with these feelings.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: And so that’s, that’s, these are the conversations that are just so important for us to continually have with our kids.
Jim: Which I so appreciate. And again, the idea here as the adult, you’re helping your child to better understand how to trust the Lord, how to lean into the Lord. And even using those scriptures to reinforce that. But like so much of the Christian life, unfortunately, sometimes we’re not living it well enough to put it on display.
Debra: Yeah.
Jim: Especially for our kids. So we have got to do that well as well. We’ve gotta become mature in Christ to lean into him so that our kids can see, “Oh, mom and dad are doing that.”
Debra: Right. I’ve heard from some parents half joking that this book is a children’s book, but it’s actually been helpful to them-
Jim: (laughs). Yeah. Exactly.
Debra: And navigating the feelings and knowing what to do with him and how to respond. And it actually comes with a parent’s guide to helping your children deal with emotions. So it’s a free guide. There’s activities in there. Um, and so it, it’s not just for the kids, but it’s also gonna equip the parents into what can I actually do to help my children with this.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. This has been so good, Debra. It’s fun having you here. I love you could probably see that I enjoy talking with you.
Debra: Oh, thank you.
Jim: And just the enthusiasm that you bring and the clarity. It’s really, it’s so good. And I’m grateful that you point to the Lord and how he designed us and how we then have to work with Him to live this life as well as we can.
Debra: God wants us to heal.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: And, and He says, “Let the little children come to Me.” And you know, Jim, I think of, even as we’re talking about a children’s book, I think of the little child in each of us.
Jim: Yeah.
Debra: And Jesus says, “I want that version of you to be healed too. I want all of you to come to Me.” So He wants to heal us in our childhood. He wants to heal us as adults. He wants to heal every part of us. And I’m so grateful that we serve a God that can heal.
John: Mm.
Jim: What’s exciting about that is there’s something about children that the Lord loves. You know, when you’re a child, you’re so honest and so trusting and it’s kind of the core of how he created us. Then over time, the world kind of, and our flesh, destroy that aspect, I think, or certainly hinder it.
Debra: For sure.
Jim: So I love the fact that God loves children, ’cause they’re probably the closest thing to Him that we see on this earth, really.
Debra: Amen.
Jim: So thank you Debra. This is great. Uh, we have touched on so much here. If last time and this time something’s in you, don’t hesitate to call us. We’re here for you. The donor community has provided a way for us to, uh, do counseling with you. It’s free. Just call us. We’ll set up a time for our counselors to call back and talk with you about some of these things. Uh, there’s no question that is too silly. Too whatever. Just get in touch with us. Don’t hold back. And you can get this, uh, bundle set of, Are You Really OK?, and Any Day Emotions for your children by making a gift of any amount, uh, $10 and just become part of the team. We’ll send you the books as our way of saying thank you for being in ministry with us.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You can reach out and we will arrange that phone consultation, uh, with one of our counselors. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And then we have the link, uh, for that opportunity for you to connect with someone and also to donate and get a copy of these books, uh, the bundle. Are You Really OK?, and Any Day Emotion. Get the details at our website and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of Jim and the entire team, thanks for joining us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
