Preview:

Michelle Nietert: I think the two things you look at with your kids is intensity and frequency, how often are they struggling and how bad is the struggle. But let me say this, if your kids are asking for help, get them help. Okay? And get them the right help.

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John Fuller: Well, when you think about your teenager, what comes to mind? Confidence or maybe confusion or peace or pressure? Maybe it’s a little bit of everything. It seems that those years are marked by lots of everything.

Today, on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we’re gonna have an honest conversation about teen mental health and about, uh, how you can help your young adult to navigate things like anxiety and loneliness and more. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: And I wanna say thanks to the viewers and listeners for tipping in and, and, uh, spending time with us today. I think today’s topic is going to be relevant to parents who are worried or concerned about where their teens and 20-somethings are at because this culture is really at their throat-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … no matter what it is. It can be too much screen time, it can be, you know, whatever. And we’re gonna discuss, uh, ways to re-engage with your teen and help, particularly today help your teen girl with issues that she’s facing about identity and body consciousness and all those things. And, uh, I think it’s gonna be really important to give parents a peace of mind-

John: Uh-huh.

Jim: … that you can get through this.

John: Yeah. And Michelle Nietert is with us. She’s always a favorite when she’s, uh, here in the studio with us. She’s a professional counselor, an author, speaker, wife, mom of two. Uh, she has a podcast called Raising Mentally Healthy Kids, check that out. She’s also got a great devotional called Strong and Secure: 100 Devotions for Young Women.

Jim: Michelle, welcome back to Focus on the Family.

Michelle: Thanks for having me back again.

Jim: It’s good to have you. No, I was going to use the scripture, 2 Timothy 1:7, I’ve used this as a parent. It says, “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind.” That is truth. How come as parents sometimes we struggle to believe that?

Michelle: I think because we’re looking at the external circumstances around us.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Michelle: And if we just emotionally react, just like our kids and our teens, to those external circumstances, the enemy’s going to take our focus and just create in us a lot of not only emotion in our hearts, but thoughts in our minds about the future and things that we may even predict that aren’t even gonna happen. And then on top of that, then our bodies are gonna react. And we’re gonna feel that in our gut, you know, our, just like our kids, we’re gonna feel that tightness in our chest. We’re gonna feel like we don’t… And, and then sometimes it’s gonna, like I did yesterday, it’s gonna, gonna bubble up in not such a good way sometimes when the pressure gets too big-

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: … on us and stuff if we don’t manage it well.

Jim: You know, so often we kick around the terms mental health, emotional health, but from a clinical perspective, is there a difference or are we saying the same thing when we say mental health or emotional health?

Michelle: I think it’s similar, for sure. I, I, because really what I’m looking at as a Christian counselor, I’m looking at holistic health. At our counseling center, I’ve trained our 80 counselors that have come through us on a bio, psycho, social, spiritual model.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: So I think it’s the redoing your mind, and that is repeating that scripture and maybe repeating other scriptures. When I get stuck, and I got stuck this weekend pretty hard with some grief, the Lord’s Prayer comes to my mind.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: ‘Cause I need that part, “Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.” So I think even the memorization of scripture where I don’t have to go find it. But this morning while I was getting ready, um, I’m not a good sitter. And I wanna encourage you, if you have a neuro-diverse kid that doesn’t sit very well, sometimes we really want him to read the scripture, I listen to the scripture a lot and so I was listening to Psalm this morning and that was helping me with that.

So I think we’ve got, you know, those of us I think who are really tackling this well, we’re helping people with breathing and exercise and things that help their bodies. I think we’re helping them be in community. I think we’re helping them with the mind piece. And then, I think the emotional piece, the key to that, especially for this generation is, and you’re gonna hear me say this probably and every time I’m here, but I think it bears repeating, emotions need to be on the bus, but they cannot run the bus.

I was working with this beautiful teenage girl recently and she is created that’s just, I mean, they’re very rare, but they are just all emotion. They can wake up one day and be like a girl on her cycle. I mean, if moms are gonna listen to this, this is real and that’s what they deal with. But she’s like that on any day ’cause that’s how she’s wired. And the thing that she said I’ve helped her the most to realize is sometimes that’s just her emotions talking and that’s not truth. And she’s gotta separate that out for that day. So she doesn’t do something like try to harm herself or think about dying or think about starving herself. We’re in a critical mess with her and it’s super important that, that a clinician do that work and give her some coping skills.

Jim: You know, one of the things I often ask, um, you know, psychologists, psychiatrists who are Christian, just that balance of, because some people watching or listening are saying, “Eh, you know, you talk about personality profiles and-” But God does organize how human beings behave. I mean, it’s in His creation. And that’s why it’s so, uh, manageable in that we can create these quick, simple 10-minute quizzes that give you an insight as to how you tick because God has put the pattern in humanity, right?

Michelle: He has.

Jim: So it’s not something to walk away from. It’s something to kind of help better understand how God creates us.

Michelle: I agree. And not only that, it doesn’t lock us in a box. My son won’t take it. He won’t take the quiz. He’s being forced to in an organization, but he’s refused.

Jim: Jean doesn’t like taking them either.

Michelle: He’s like, “I don’t wanna be locked in a box.”

Jim: Right.

Michelle: But I’ve told him, “This doesn’t lock you in a box. This helps me understand how you work, so I can parent you better. But at the same time, I understand the gifts of the Spirit, and I understand spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirit can manifest anything in you at any time. And I’m trusting God to do that too-”

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: “… in your life.” So I think it’s a merger of both.

Jim: You often say mentally healthy parents raise mentally healthy kids. Now, I’m thinking of the teenage years. Our, our boys are now in their twenties, but can a parent truly become mentally healthy during the raising of teenagers? (laughs) Seems, uh, contradictive.

Michelle: I think it’s essential. I think it’s essential. It may be contradictive, but I think it’s really essential to a parent to have done their own work. I talked about this last time I was here with my dad, that I was raised by a father who loved well, but had a bad temper and, and, and probably had ADHD and impulsivity and didn’t manage that well always in my childhood years. And I think if I hadn’t worked through that, I could’ve repeated a lot of those generational patterns. So I think, um, I’m experiencing a really interesting sandwich right now because I am having, while I am being a grounding source to a kid who just went off to college and a son whose hormones are all, and moods are all over the place, I’ve never experienced him like this before. Um, and I need to be that grounding source to him, and I need to manage my own emotions with him.

But at the same time, I talked to you guys this morning, I’ve got a huge spike of emotion going on. I lost my dad three years ago this month. My mother-in-law died two weeks ago, and we made a huge decision yesterday that my mother is gonna sell the lake house, which are the main good memories of me with my dad-

Jim: Mm.

Michelle: … um, because she needs to move closer to us-

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: … because she is struggling with some health issues. And so, sometimes we as parents have a lot of emotion going on ourselves and some mental health issues can come out of that, especially I’m very fortunate there’s not a lot of sibling conflict with me. There’s not a lot… My mother is the person who, I mean, I always call her saint. She loved my father well, even though he was difficult, and she really loved us kids well. And so we want to honor her at this time, but I am riding waves of grief. And sometimes, like yesterday, I will confess, that grief came out with severe irritation with my husband, who actually just offered to get my suitcase, but I thought he was rushing me. (laughs) And I just said, “I will do it in a minute.” And then, I came back to him and I said, “I’m sorry. I, I, I’m just really, there’s so much emotion in with me right now. This was not about your help. And you’re right, you had great intentions and I took it the wrong way.”

And so I think we have to do the work. And, and I will tell you this, in the same 24 hours, I have talked to a new friend who’s in her sixties, I have reached out to my Christian coach to pray with me. My sister and I had a heart-wrenching conversation where she confessed, “I cried too today. Mom is starting to fade and it’s hard for me to come to grips with that and still deal with the demands of our work life and ministry life,” she’s with Lifeway, “and the kids. And then, it’s just hard.” And so I think we, as parents, have to do our work, grieve. I don’t think we hide it all from our kids either.

Jim: Mm.

Michelle: I think we model it well for them. I hope I am because I hope they’re gonna care for me as well as I wanna care for my mom right now.

Jim: Yeah. So you got both sides of that working.

Michelle: Yeah.

Jim: And I think, you know, when I’m going through the book, I was looking at that factor that sometimes biochemical issues enter in. You could be an emotionally stable parent and your child may have things that you’ve not dealt with that they’re dealing with, whether it’s anxiety, depression, and whether that’s linked to biochemical issues, et cetera. So there’s always that. There, there’s not a formulaic approach.

I, I’ll ask this question in a way that I, I normally wouldn’t ask it ’cause I don’t believe there is a way to make sure something happens, make sure an outcome occurs. But parents can get so desperate that they ask the question, you know, in Strong and Secure, you’re leaning in toward how can we as parents make sure our kids are emotionally and mentally strong? I, I-

Michelle: Okay. I’m gonna give you the best thing I know in this area.

Jim: There’s predictive ability-

Michelle: Yes, there’s predictive ability.

Jim: … but no certainty of outcome.

Michelle: That’s right. And here’s what I will tell you. The one thing I have poured my life into, in the midst of this work, is making sure my kids l- really knew God and loved him as a Father. Because that’s why I wrote this book. Um, in college, it changed my life to know God as Father and to know that I get to take Him anywhere I go. He was with me in the hotel this morning. He was with me on the plane. Um, and He’s with my daughter when she’s at school, you know, while she’s grieving. And that is what, I’ll never forget the conflict we had one time when she said, “I don’t want you to be the boss of me.” And I said, “I don’t wanna be the boss of you. And as soon as God is the boss of you, I am all-”

Jim: Not allowed.

Michelle: “… I’m out,” you know?

Jim: That’s good.

Michelle: And, and, but what that… And I think she took the challenge seriously, but what it did is allow her to begin to seek the parenthood of the father heart of God.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: And as she has experienced that in His life, the things that we talk about in this book, His presence, His peace, His provision, His protection, His healing, all those things herself, uh, you can’t guarantee the results, but 1 hour out of 168 hours a week is not discipleship for your child. You can’t leave them in church with the youth minister for an hour and you can’t leave them in Sunday school and expect them to catch it. You’ve got to spend time, like it talks about writing the Word on their hearts, talking about it in the car.

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: Um, you know, I had great conversation with my son yesterday or the day before when I was driving to school, and I just said, “How you doing?” And he said, “I’m doing okay.” And I said, um, “How was the retreat?” He’d been on a Christian retreat, and he said it was good. And, and we gotta be careful because we’ll let that go sometimes. And I said-

Jim: How?

Michelle: “… What was good about it?”

Jim: Yeah. How was it good?

Michelle: “What was good about it?” And he said, um, “I just really felt like God spoke to me in these ways.” And I was like, “That’s amazing. I love seeing…” And this is what I think parents need to do more of, catch God at work in your kids.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: I hear a lot catch your kids doing good but catch God at work in your kids. And I said to him, “I love the way that God is working in and through you.” And yesterday morning, I got to watch my daughter on a tele-broadcast of a church of 1,600 lead worship and I love watching her sing about surrendering her life to the Lord, even if it is in front of a camera. But I think there’s, I see the authenticity in her heart and the surrender as she sings that I am available. And if you can get that in your kids, it’s not gonna protect them from ever having, she had, almost had a panic attack, it’s not gonna protect them from all that, but I think it’s gonna see them through it.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Well, today on Focus on the Family, Michelle Nietert is our guest and, uh, we’re talking about really the heart behind this book. It’s really a wonderful resource for you to work through with your young adult daughter. It’s called Strong and Secure: 100 Devotions for Young Women. And you heard from Michelle there about, uh, what she wants to see you be able to do with this book and your child. Uh, get a copy of the book from us here, uh, at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And of course here at Focus on the Family, we have a wonderful counseling team as well.

Uh, Michelle, uh, as a parent, how do I know if I need to seek out, um, a professional for, uh, advising me on anxiety and depression I’m watching my child go through, but I really, I can’t help her in particular pull out of it.

Michelle: Yeah. I, I’m very grateful for your counseling team. I’m part of your referral network and worked, I’m working with a couple right now in a couple’s intensive situation. So I’m grateful for them. And I’m grateful sometimes when I encounter people while I’m speaking that I can refer them in different states and know that I’m getting a clinical who also has a dedication to faith. But I think that’s real important in this culture, I would say, as you’re seeking, um, clinical advice, make sure that faith piece is a part of it or you might not get some advice that I would endorse these days. Things are changing in my professional life that way. And, um, people have some maybe poor counsel for you.

But I, I go back to what we talked about a little bit with God, I feel sad and God, I feel scared in Managing Your Emojis. I think the two things you look at with your kids is intensity and frequency, how often are they struggling and how bad is the struggle. But let me say this, if your kids are asking for help, get them help.

Jim: Mm.

Michelle: Okay? And get them the right help. And, and that may mean you need to do a parent consult first with someone. I, I offer them all over the country, um, to help you find the right mental health professional. My own sister, who is Lifeway Bible Study teacher, her, none of our kids are perfect. All of our kids have struggled. And, um, she was the sixth person in a week who said, “How do you get your college kid to go to a counselor when you think they need to?” And I’m like, “You know what, can you get on the podcast with me and let me answer this question with you instead of personally? ‘Cause I’ve said it six times this week and I’d like to record it.” So we actually very vulnerably recorded that together on the podcast. And so I think it’s a process of, if your kids are asking for help, it’s easy. But let me tell you this. I’m in these groups and y’all, it’s kind of scary. They’re called dorm room moms, and they were kind of about decorating at first-

Jim: Uh-huh.

Michelle: … the dorm rooms, but now they’re about where the kids are.

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: And there are kids who are failing, there are kids who are wanting to quit their sports. There are… That have full rides. There are kids who are drinking too much. There are kids who, um, some, um, new boyfriend or girlfriend has come into their lives and they’re walking away from their faith or their values. And, and, and our kids, I, I think where you put your kids in college is important too.

And I’m gonna say something publicly that I may regret, but we have been very honest with our kids. We are the ones who are making that investment because they can’t afford it on their own. And so we will only invest, not necessarily in a Christian university, but in universities that offer opportunities for spiritual growth alongside their academic vocational preparation. It’s very important to us.

So my son who wants to be a chemical engineer, there’s not a Christian university in the country, small one, that offers that degree. But we’re looking at schools where there’s a strong crew or there’s a strong, um-

Jim: Campus ministry.

Michelle: … like campus ministry-

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: … worship team, something.

Jim: Right.

Michelle: And, and then you gotta figure out a way to help your kids plug in. For example, when my husband and I, and my son came with us, dropped my daughter off at college, we stayed an extra night. It cost us in a hotel room, but we went to church with her on Sunday, so that she would go to church, a church somewhere in this new town she was living in, she would not be by herself having to do that.

Jim: Yeah, that’s good.

Michelle: And we could look at college adults. And I think we as parents are gonna have to get creative about how we continue to disciple our kids as they’re off at school.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: In addition to that, I think to answer your question, John, how I would say that is if you have doubts, move. Like if something’s in your heart saying something’s not right, act on that.

John: Yeah.

Jim: And, uh, I just think if we’re waiting for our child to express it, even though we may be sensing it, uh, we may be a step behind.

Michelle: And can I also say this, and I know that this is different than what a lot of us thought, sometimes it’s okay to move your kid too. If they’re begging to come home, you gotta examine it. And you don’t wanna have somebody who quits too soon. But, you know, we don’t al- none of us gets a magic ball to see the future. And sometimes we feel the Lord has led us one way, but the circumstances are too much. And also, get them help there on the campus. Find a ministry, find a Christian counselor where they’re at. Um, if they’re at a Christian school, most of those schools have amazing university Christian counselors. They’re free to these kids. I met the ones at my daughter’s school, checked them out a little bit, I have to admit. But it’s so important that we help our kids plug in to godly support.

And you know how we do it the best, guys? We model that. And that’s what I’m most worried about. A lot of parents aren’t modeling that. They’re not seeking that out. If they’re too busy to do it, don’t expect your kids to do what you’re not doing yourself. So my kids see me say, “I have another meeting. It’s with my coach. Um, and I’m gonna go cry my eyes out. I’ll be back in an hour.” You know, my kids see my husband in a small men’s group every other week where he jokes about his coke addiction, and that’s Coca-Cola. He has a little soda migraine issue that he gets into. And sure enough, when his mom’s died, he started drinking Coca-Cola again. But they see him struggle and get support and have men pray for him, and him mentor other men. I, I think it’s real important that our kids catch a vision for this life.

And honestly, I know that you’re saying, what does this have to do with mental health. It has everything to do with mental health. The biggest struggle these kids have, the research says, and the statistics are scary, I heard the president of the school share ’em, um, looking at the anxious generation, um, it’s loneliness and isolation.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: And so as we demonstrate that we’re not, that we’re in community, it inspires our kids to be in community.

Jim: Yeah. And I think in that regard, I mean, noticing the spiritual battle that we’re in for what it is, you know, the word of God, I think 2 Timothy, it says, “God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind.” But the enemy works directly against that. And that is why I think we’re seeing the opposites. In other words, anxiety, depression, loneliness. These would be the attributes of the deceiver. We’ve seen links between social media use and teen anxiety. We’ve had many guests come on and talk about this.

Michelle: Yeah.

Jim: Um, I guess the bottom-line question is how do we know what is okay and what’s not when it comes to usage? And that, you know, it’s every parent’s battle, right? Um, how, how much time is too much time? And it’s almost like we’re looking for someone to say one hour a day, two hours a day, whatever that answer’s going to be. How have you addressed that and what do you see in the research?

Michelle: Okay. I am very different than your average guest because I have not withheld that from my kids in the way a lot of them have. And I’ve done it partially because they have a working mom and a work traveling dad. And so with their extracurricular activities, I have wanted communication with them.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: Now, I have locked them down. They do not have a phone that has access to everything because as a clinician who treats, um, issues with teenagers, my biggest nightmare was the day boys got porn in their pockets-

Jim: Sure.

Michelle: … on a phone, you know? (laughs).

Jim: Uh-hm.

Michelle: But, um, in the counseling world, um, because we see so much of that. But let me say this, um, I, I think it’s like anything else. When you ride a bike, you have training wheels, and then you start riding. And we need to help our kids with electronic devices, do it with training wheels under our roofs well.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: What I look at is the emotional regulation piece of this, is one thing I look at. So my son with the video games, I would tell him the minute when I say you need to get off and you, I’m good with I need to finish this up or something for, and it, and it’s a couple of minutes, but the minute I see uh-hmm, all that stuff you’ll see sometimes, that’s telling me you’re playing too long. And so you’re gonna see me limit that.

So I really bred in him a spirit of cooperation, a spirit of being able to stop playing and realize that that’s not all there is because it is a very, um, hyper-focused enveloping thing which, um, his friends caught me at, um, during the Dallas ice storm. So when his friends are playing sometimes and it gets too intense, I will come in sometimes and say, “Hey guys, I think it’s time to step away from the remote. Why don’t y’all go, go for a walk, go get in the hot tub, let’s have pizza, and then y’all can come back.”

However, I was playing a game on my iPad and it, you know, we didn’t have a lot to do during that ice storm, and one of them cutely said to me, “Ms. Nietert, I think it’s time for you to step away from the iPad. I hear you talking at it.”

John: (Laughs).

Michelle: And so I think that’s good because that’s the other thing that I don’t think we talk about a lot. We love to talk about our kids and our devices, but let me tell you what, I got kids in my office that say they don’t have much relationship with their parents because of the amount of time their parents are on their devices.

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: … working-

Jim: How did you react?

Michelle: … playing games. Um, one, praying about my own conviction of that-

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: … because I, I manage a business on my iPhone to a large degree myself. Um, but also, um, realizing that I love, um, Arlene Pellicane, who I know you’ve had on-

Jim: Yeah, yeah.

Michelle: … is a good friend of mine, that pivot, that pivot that she teaches when your kid walks in the room, when your husband walks in, you pivot for just a minute and you give somebody their attention, you recognize their presence. I have used that nonstop.

But I wanna address the heart of this question, I think, because it’s not a formula. It’s gonna be different with each kid. Neuro-diverse kids have hyper-focus, they need the dopamine more, they can get saturated more with it. But here’s what I think it’s more about, especially when it comes to the social media component. And let’s address girls with this. Comparison is what the enemy uses to rob women of life and confidence and joy, um, with their bodies, with what they do. You know, the biggest question I have in 12-year-old girls, which makes me sad, is, “Am I enough?”

Jim: Mm.

Michelle: And they fear disappointing even their parents in that. Even if they’re fighting with you and rolling their eyes, at the same time they fear disappointing you.

Jim: Mm.

Michelle: Believe it, the research even says it. As high school counselors, the number one influence on kids still is their parent.

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: Don’t think it’s not true just because they roll their eyes. But here’s the thing. When my daughter asked if she could start some of that, and we were legally at the age where she could, here’s what I wanted to know, where’s your identity. Is it in people, your performance, people’s approval, and your appearance? Because if it is, you’ll die in social media world, right?

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: Okay. Or is it in Christ? Is it because of how you were created, how you were adopted, your purpose in life, and the fact that you have had the highest price paid for you when God paid His son for you? And if you can hold onto this value system, in the midst of being around this value system, I’m okay with you beginning that process.

And then the biggest question I think we ask is what is the purpose of this? I have to be on social media. I’m a speaker, I’m an author. I might be becoming a mahjong teacher. Um, I’m a counselor. And all of that requires some social media dynamics to it. But my purpose in social media is to practice scriptures that say things like encourage one another. So I, to use it as a source of, um, right now there are people praying for me ’cause I asked for it on social media this morning. Um, some who reached out and sent me texts and everything else in the midst of that.

Um, and so I think it’s a chance to be a light in darkness as long as we do it right. And that means that we spend more time talking about light than looking at darkness and criticizing it. And that’s where I think we as believers get off with it. And I encourage my kids, stay in the lane of cheering each other on, of loving each other well on social media, and then speaking truth. Share truth there at times. And we don’t have to be scared of it if we’re bringing the light and love of God into it.

John: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: And that’s why I wouldn’t miss those moments with my kids’ friends and them as I see my kids. My daughter just booked, she’s a, become a professional photographer on top of the worship leadership, and, um, she booked all but one last spot for April. And, and I saw it on her social media. I’d miss it if I wasn’t there. She might not have told me that. We talk about more s- I don’t know, more in depth things than that, that might not have come up. But I got a chance on her story to say, “Wow, only one left. That’s amazing, Sophia!” And I think that’s great parenting.

Jim: Yeah. Let’s, uh, let’s come back next time and keep the discussion going. And, uh, this has been great stuff.

If you’re in that spot as a parent and you’re looking for answers to desperate questions ’cause you feel like, especially with this book, Strong and Secure, your daughter may be struggling with identity or anxiety or maybe even tipping into depression, uh, get a copy of Michelle’s great book, uh, Strong and Secure. You can get that directly through Focus on the Family.

And as John said, you can also talk to a counselor. Just call us. We’re available to you. We’re here to help and to provide great resources that guests like Michelle have been able to provide. So do contact us and get the help you need.

John: Mm-hmm. Make a donation if you can, uh, of any amount, either a monthly pledge or a onetime gift. And we’ll say thanks by sending Michelle’s devotional book to you. And, uh, our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459 or donate and, uh, access these resources and others. Uh, just stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And by the way, we’ve got a great free tool for you called our Age and Stage eNewsletter. Uh, you can sign up and, uh, enter your child’s age and we’ll send weekly e-mails to you, as well as an annual e-mail so you can kinda be ready for what’s coming up. It’s a great program, and it’s free. It’s called our Age and Stage eNewsletter. Sign up on our website.

And thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Michelle, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

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Part 2:

Preview:

Michelle Nietert: You do not put a kid who’s got a broken arm, let’s say they’re struggling with anxiety or something already, you do not put them in a canoe to swim upstream with one paddle. They need other people on the boat to help them move that boat along the upstream of our culture today.

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John Fuller: That’s counselor and mom, Michelle Nietert, and she’s back with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.

Jim Daly: Yeah, John, this is such an important topic. Um, how do we strengthen our children, particularly our girls in this book, Strong and Secure? And, uh, Michelle’s done a great job raising the right issues for us as parents to be kinda over the target on, right? Uh, a girl’s identity, her sense of self-worth, her relationship with Christ, all kind of the foundations so that the other things culture will throw at them can be managed in those contexts.

And if you didn’t listen to the broadcast last time, uh, get the app. It’s the best way to do it. You have access to everything that we do, both the podcast and the broadcast. If you do that, it’s just Focus on the Family Broadcast App, and you can find that in your app store.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But, uh, I’m looking forward to today. We’re gonna continue the discussion with Michelle and talk more about securing your daughter’s spiritual well-being, emotional well-being, and physical well-being.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really liked how she framed it in terms of helping our kids grab onto the Father heart of God, and He’s our source. Now you mentioned the book, Jim, and we have it. It’s called Strong and Secure: 100 Devotions for Young Women. And as a listener, you can learn more about Michelle and this devotional on our website.

Jim: Michelle, welcome back.

Michelle: Thanks.

Jim: It’s good to have you with us again to continue this, uh, discussion. You know, I feel like my whole parenting experience is just, uh, kind of in my brain, things I need to remember to do, kind of a creation of a list, I guess, is how I would express it, make sure we’re reading the Word together. And we did that when the boys were younger, more often. Now it’s in their 20s, I, I’m sending them more scripture every few days, “Hey, this caught my attention. Here’s why. Thought it might apply to you.”

So you’ve gotta find ways to keep bringing the Word in front of your, your young people, whatever age, high school or college, I think. Um, what do you do to try to keep that connection spiritually, especially with your daughter at a distance? She’s in college, but your son’s still at home.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think it is. Um, some … The other day, Nolan came in, and he was just overwhelmed.

Jim: Uh-huh.

Michelle: Um, he had (laughs) woken up late and, um, he needs uniform shorts, and we don’t know what happened to ’em, but they weren’t in the house (laughs) and-

Jim: Gym bag, gym bag.

Michelle: (laughs) And so-

Jim: (laughs)

Michelle: … um, we do think maybe the gym bag, he runs track right now. And so … But he just woke up in a mood. Now, it … And this is what I wanna tell parents. This is why you stay grounded while your kids are having that mood. And it was a little tough. I was up that morning, and by the grace of God, I had already listened to some scripture.

Jim: Uh-huh.

Michelle: And so I said to him, as he was in my room kind of frantically looking, I said, “I got you. You need to go take your shower, but before you do,” I just said, “Alexa, open the Bible app and read us the word of the day.” And we just listened to that together. And he was like, “H- Mom, how did you know that was gonna fit?” And I said, “Well, I happened to hear it a couple minutes ago.” So I had already done that-

Jim: (laughs)

Michelle: … but, that day.

Jim: Still fits.

Michelle: But then he went up and took a shower. We did not find the shorts, so we had to get to school early to borrow some out of lost and found. Borrow, I use lightly. Um, and so we g- we got there, and on the way there, he said, “Mom, thank you for staying so calm when I was so upset.”

Jim: So he noticed.

Michelle: He noticed that I was a spiritual extension cord-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: … of God’s peace to him in the midst of that difficult time. And he expressed some gratitude, which is rare. That doesn’t happen all the time. But I will tell you, I think that is so important. And then I looked at him, and I said, “Now I know I need to pray you find shorts when you get inside there, but how else can I pray for you today?” And he’s like, “I got a test. I think I’m ready, but I got a test.” And I’m like, “Okay, thanks.”

And so I think, especially with my daughter far away, I ask her a lot, how can I pray for her? Sometimes I will notice things, and I will, um … You know, you gotta be careful with that so you don’t sound like you’re preaching at them or correcting them because kids take advice as criticism in this, when they’re in college.

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: And I think it’s really important that we be aware of that. So I think we continue to share God’s Word. If, if God lays a, a scripture on your heart, um, I love, especially they like the memes, so they like you to find the photo with the scripture and share it with them. And so I do that a lot with them as well.

I say a lot in the office to people who are not believers that hope deferred will make the heart sick. In fact, that’s how kids, a lot of times, teenage girls end up depressed, is they’re struggling with some anxiety or some external pressure. And then they, all of a sudden, think they can fix it, and they try to fix it, and then they can’t fix it. They try to get their friends to help ’em fix it. And then their hope gets deferred, and it makes their heart sick. And they end up sometimes even clinically depressed because of it.

So I think we can weave that scripture in, but if we’re gonna do that, we, as parents, have to be in that Word …

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: … knowing that Word, letting it come. I really believe it’s meant to breathe life in and through us.

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: I do have some parents who are reading this devotional themselves. I had a mom ask me, “How could I use this devotional ’cause I don’t think my daughter will read it when I give it to her in college?” I said, “What if you look through because I’m, I’m writing about the difficulties teens are facing and young adults that we treat in our counseling center all the time. What if it just gave you words to say and questions to ask?” And she came back to me and said, “I’ve had the best conversations with my daughter. I didn’t realize one of her friends was going through a bad breakup and how much a bad boyfriend can affect you.”

And so she learned some of the topics that they’re living through better.

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: Especially when it’s your first. Your first is always difficult.

Jim: Yeah. Let me take us back to that reaction, uh, when your son was kinda out of sorts.

Michelle: Yeah (laughs).

Jim: Because I … And I think it’s really important ’cause the other response, I’d like to describe it, and then have you respond to it. Because in that environment, you, as the parent, can be sucked in, and you now are anxious about the poor planning that your teen has displayed, and it’s pushing your buttons.

Michelle: Oh, it is.

Jim: Like, it’s-

Michelle: Not only that, like I didn’t train him well enough. He’s disorganized. What’s wrong with him? Why can’t he keep up with his stuff? That’s the wrong response in a crisis moment for a parent-

Jim: Well-

Michelle: … to give, even though it’s running through our heads, right?

Jim: That’s the hook.

Michelle: Yes.

Jim: How do you back out of that frenzy as the parent and not fall for the bait? And I’m not saying your teen is baiting you per se.

Michelle: No.

Jim: But they’re in a frenzy, and you have to be the adult in the room, like you did.

Michelle: Yeah.

Jim: But if you are more easily prone, as a parent, to get into the fray emotionally and go, “Well, why didn’t you plan? You know I’m busy. I’ve got all this going on today. I don’t have time to look for your shorts. That’s your job, not my job.”

Michelle: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And this ends up in conflict rather than shalom, God’s peace.

Michelle: You’re right. And that’s probably what would have happened. I had two clients cancel that morning by the grace of God. So I wasn’t getting ready for work like I normally am at the same time he’s getting ready for school. So on a typical day, I’d be like, “Nolan, I don’t have time for this. I’ve got to get my own makeup on and get in the car.”

Jim: (laughs) Right.

Michelle: And stuff like that. So there … I think that’s reality. I think, though, that we want to try as much as we can to … I don’t think it’s their bait. I think it’s the bait of the enemy.

Jim: I would agree.

Michelle: Right?

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: Causing … Trying to cause destruction in our lives. And let me say this, there are days that, that that would have been more my response. And you know what you do then? And let me say this, guys, as I’m dealing with kids who hear other kids talk about their parents, and they’re coming back with parental resentments and complaints. If you wanna prevent that, then you tell ’em you, it was a bad day, and you’re sorry, you both had a bad day-

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: … and you commiserate together. And you apologize for the fact that you didn’t do any better job than them of regulating your own emotions. But I think the thing that I think about more than the list, ’cause I know I’m a list person, too, I am learning to get out of the list, and this is part of dialectical behavioral therapy and mindfulness, and that is being present.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: It grounds people. And I am learning that in the midst of the frenzy of the shorts, what’s more important is my presence than how we look to the school, how we look, how he looks in the midst of this. And that’s the other thing I think I’ve really learned. I have learned that, so what if you have to pay for an ID badge? It’s not the end of the world. Sometimes we, as parents, when our kids are showing their character weaknesses, we global- just like we do in our marriages, we globalize those weaknesses, and we awfulize them. Those are terms for-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: … cognitive distortions, and we make them bigger deals than they really are. I think we approach our kids, what I see in Jesus’ life with His messy disciples, and they are messier than our s- our kids, I think, when I really get in and read those gospels, He continuously extends compassion. Accountability, but compassion. And you know what? I’ve lo- My mom had to run my tennis skirt up to school, you know-

Jim: (laughs)

Michelle: … when I was a kid. I, I relate to that.

Jim: What goes around comes around.

Michelle: I had those messy moments. I can’t find my keys this morning. S- And so I think sometimes we even have a greater intolerance for the things we see in our kids that are inside us as weaknesses. We wish we could correct that. And that is God’s job. That is not our job to do. It is God’s job to see if He can break that generationally in the next generation. And He does that by the Spirit being stronger in them, not by us working harder at making sure the shorts are there.

Jim: You know, another example that you had about presence, and we touched a little bit on this last time, but, uh, to explore it a little bit more, ’cause it’s so critical, ’cause so much connection is made in this idea of presence because that’s where there’s a calming effect for your child, which is a good thing. But you would tuck your son in at night, I think, maybe your daughter, too, and in this case, tickle his back, I think, was an example.

Michelle: No, (laughs) no, no, not exactly. Okay. So here’s the thing. We are so good with the God I feel sad generation, the little preschoolers. We tuck our kids in, we wind them down at night.

Jim: Uh-huh.

Michelle: But here’s why we’re seeing anxiety in 10-year-olds, because they go to soccer practice and they do all this stuff, and we’re rolling them into bed to just try to get them to sleep, and we’re tired, too. And then they lay in that bed, and all the anxious thoughts have time to crowd in. And so I think it’s really important for us as parents, as they get older, to still take that moment. And what I have done is … And this is part of, um, somatic healing therapy. And I didn’t even know that ’cause that didn’t exist when I started this.

I had a friend who was a massage therapist, and she taught me the importance of healing touch and relaxing touch. So I have rubbed my kids back just real gently, not full-on muscles. But at times, I have, and here’s why. Sometimes I will touch my kids’ back.

And let me tell you a great example of this that ended up being very spiritual moment for us. One night, my … So when your kids get past the age of, um, elementary school and you’re tucking them in, sometimes they have to come tuck you in (laughs) ’cause you’re in bed before them when they get to this high school age and college age, especially when she was home from college.

John: They outlast us.

Michelle: I could not … They out- She so outlasts me now. So then … But I said to her, “When you go to bed, come say goodnight to me, you know, still.” And so she came in one night, you know, and she was in high school, and I was rubbing her back, and I’m like, “Oh my goodness, your neck is like a knot.” And she said to me, “I’m so stressed. I, I have this due, this due, this due.” And, okay, we talked about the list, right? My first thought was, “Yeah, and I watched you watch a show, um, drink your coffee, go with your friend.” You know, she’s mobile by then.

She had time to do it, but that is not the time to bring that up. In that moment when your kid is about to go upstairs and try to get the rest of it done, I said, “Can I pray for you? Can I just pray that God will give you focus and make it faster and just have the grace to help you out like I need when I’m under a book deadline, if I’m honest?”

Jim: Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle: You know, some of you relate to that. And so I prayed over her. I, I looked at my email one last time before I went to bed, and an email popped in from one of the teachers and said, “I don’t know why, but I’m gonna postpone this test. I just have a bad feeling about it. I don’t think you guys are gonna be ready.” And I thought, “Oh my gosh, God answered our prayers right” … I mean, we got to experience God in the moment.

And she came popping downstairs real quick and goes, “Mom, did you see it?” And I was like, “Isn’t that amazing? We got to experience God together in that moment.” So I think there’s lots of things we can do as parents just to really … Uh, it’s called attunement in the psychological world. And what it means is fully paying attention, and we do this as therapists, not only to what somebody’s saying, but the, all the nonverbal cues, ’cause we know 93% of everything that’s communicated is nonverbal.

Um, I think there’s a lot of things like that that we, as parents, can work on that breed real strong connection with our kids. Um, it … I think it’s something for us to become aware of ourselves. I think it’s good for us to learn to attune to our own bodies and help ask God to make us aware of that. I ask God to make me aware of things that … The unseen. Doesn’t scripture talk about that, to focus on the unseen? So I wanna see in my kids’ lives the unseen that they’re not talking to me about through their bodies, and then through the Spirit because there are spiritual battles which you referenced earlier in the last episode, Jim, that our kids are battling, that I want to participate-

Jim: Mm-hmm

Michelle: … in the warfare of in their lives.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm. That’s Michelle Nietert, and she’s our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, uh, covering some of the principles in her excellent book, Strong and Secure: 100 Devotions for Young Women. Uh, this really is, uh, a great tool for you to use, as she indicated earlier, even if your child isn’t going to use it with you, but go through this book with your child, strengthen those bonds, and help them rely more on the Lord. Get a copy from us when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: You know, Michelle, one of the things that we can fail our children with is our inability to listen intently. And you speak about that very expressly. I, I think because we’re moving fast, it’s not a guilt statement. It’s just in my head, in my list, remember to slow down and really listen, uh, which for me as an extrovert. I’m assuming that might be true for you. It’s one of the hardest things for us to get ahold of ’cause we wanna keep moving. And, really, to be still so we can hear the other person, in this case, our children.

So listening to the body, that’s great, observing those things, but then actually listening to what they say rather than doing the lecture. It’s really hard ’cause we’ve done life and, you know, we were 17, we were 25. We kinda know the game. We know what’s going on. We know what’s best for you. But how do you listen and bite your tongue not to just spew advice? Which, you know, sometimes advice is good, but it’s a different role as your kids get older, uh, even in teen years. So how, how do you do that? How do you listen intently?

Michelle: So I think the first thing you do is you listen with your eyes.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: And that gets back to that pivot we talked about in the episode with the screens.

Jim: Yep.

Michelle: So we need to put our eyes on them. And some of us are doers, and we’re busy doing. And I think one thing we need to accept is sometimes our kids are gonna tell us stuff we might even be, gosh, can I say it a little bored as we’re listening?

Jim: (laughs)

Michelle: And so I think … But we need to accept that and do that well. And here’s what I think we do next. You know, in this stage of life, this older teen, young adult stage, we are no longer teachers, we are coaches. And coaches ask great questions. So if I were to tell a parent, how do you become equipped in this stage? More than anything is don’t learn the scripture. Ask them what scripture they would use in this situation.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: Don’t, um, give them advice. Ask them what they think they might consider doing. And so I think you listen and then you question, not with, like, an intent to, um, dissect, but I think you question with curiosity. And I … And it’s not an interrogation thing. It’s more of a, like, I’m unwrapping a present and you’re the present, and I wanna get to know all the details of my present.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: And so when I have a teenager in my office, that’s what it’s like. But I think I take that same skill and I apply it to my kids. This is a gift from God that’s unfolding before my very eyes and developing. And young adulthood, they’re not done. You know, my 18-year-old’s got six years left of brain development or up to eight. That brain’s only a third of the way done. So I’m curious about what’s still developing there.

And so I think asking the questions, um, she has a boyfriend. “How’s it going? What’s been good lately? What’s been hard lately with that relationship?” And I think when we ask, and then sometimes we just say, “I’m glad you shared that with me. That’s something I can pray about.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: Instead of coming back with, “Well, let me” … You know, I’m an expert, right, in relationships (laughs). I mean, I’ve been trained by John Townsend and Henry Cloud on boundaries. I can tell you what’s healthy and what’s toxic and what’s narcissistic. And, and one time, I did say to her, I said, “Sometimes I wanna make sure that” … And this is where, how I think you do it. You do it where you’re showing them that you’re for them when you do give the advice. I … And I wonder a lot. I said, “I’m wondering if he is balancing his own life with your life. He just seems to be around a lot.”

Now, what I really said is that relationship seems to be getting awfully close, right? But I did it in such a way it sounded like a question.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: I didn’t make an observation or a judgment. And she said to me … I love it. She said, “You know, I’ve been thinking about that, too, mom. I think I probably need to talk to him a little bit about that. I felt a little bit about that. And I’m glad you noticed it. Some other people have noticed it. I think it’s hard, um, because I wanna feel connected,” and I’ll, you know, she sometimes hasn’t. Um, and, and we’re navigating hard things with our kids.

Um, a lot of parents I know who are listening to this, you’re so jealous ’cause you wish your kid would talk to you like this, right? And, and I’ve read a lot of books like How to Listen So Your Teen Will Talk and Talk So Your Teen Will Listen. I think, I think there’s a lot of things we can pick up in skills with that-

Jim: Yep.

Michelle: … ourselves as parents. But I think the biggest thing is set your agenda aside and try to learn more about theirs.

Jim: Yeah. That’s good. That’s really good. You know, right at the end here, uh, we need to, I think, emphasize this idea of identity because it’s so crucial, especially again to our daughters and, uh, Strong and Secure, you’ve inclined it to the daughters in our families.

Michelle: Yes.

Jim: I think it’s one of the reasons that so many kids coming from Christian homes go off to college and kinda lose it.

Michelle: Yeah.

Jim: ‘Cause they’ve been under, you know, good guidelines-

Michelle: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … solid parenting parameters, those kinds of things. Now, all of a sudden, they’ve been taught the do-nots, but they don’t understand why. And they go into this college environment and drinking is available, and partying is available, and other things are available. So their ability to discern is not as strong as it could have been. So, in that context, wrapped in identity, how do we get, uh, our daughters in the best position possible right here at the end, this is the million-dollar question-

Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Here we go.

Jim: … to survive that environment, not just survive, but to thrive as a believer in Christ and to do well.

Michelle: Mm-hmm. Okay. So, first of all, I think it’s more about the dos than the do-nots. And we-

Jim: Right.

Michelle: … focused on that. I think it’s also … I changed my mind about this. I didn’t want my kids to date in high school, but then I realized I wanted them to have their first breakup under my roof.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: So, uh, we started loosening the parameters in the last couple years. My parents, when I asked them their biggest parenting mistake with me, they both told me, like when I was a young therapist, I asked them this, um, that they thought you hold on and then you drop them off. And actually, my mom said we should have let one … We did a better job with your brothers and sisters. We … You fought so hard against our grip because we didn’t let one finger go every year-

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: … until you were ready to go.

Jim: That’s a good, good metaphor.

Michelle: So I think that’s a w- Yeah. My parents were wise people and learned from their mistakes, I think, as they went along. And so I think that’s part of it. I think, though, this identity piece is formulated partially with what we can do. But I will tell you this, and we didn’t quite get to this. I read Bound by Honor as a (laughs) 22-year-old therapist, and I took that to heart, the value of a mentor, because I am a product of the mentors of the kingdom, of the church through high school and college.

And so I hired a vocal coach for my daughter that I didn’t really care how good her voice turned out. This was a, a 20-something-year-old woman of God who was way cooler than I was-

Jim: (laughs).

Michelle: … who spoke truth in my daughter’s life and would share things … She would … My daughter would share things with her she wasn’t sharing with me.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: And so I think if you wanna line this up well, identity’s gotta come from a lot of different sources. And I think it’s gotta come from the youth leaders. I think sometimes it comes from Christian coaches and other believers in their lives. Um, I think it also comes from making sure they have … And this was something I really prayed hard about, is that when she … Her roommate is a pastor’s daughter and a dedicated believer. And, and you know what? They did not pick each other that way. They picked each other because they loved thrifting, coffee, and Jesus.

And Jesus was third on that (laughs) list as they looked. And neither was, was a cheerleader. And no offense to those who are cheerleaders, I was Ms. Peppy of the year, but that’s not my daughter’s thing. So she did not … She probably was done living with me. And that’s what … I think, especially if your kids are not going off to a Christian university, how are they going to find the other believers in their school so that … Let me tell you what you don’t do with a kid. And, and I think this is getting harder and harder in our culture today. You do not put a kid who’s got a broken arm … Let’s say they’re struggling with anxiety or something already. You do not put them in a canoe to swim upstream with one paddle.

They need other people on the boat to help them move that boat along the upstream of our culture today.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: It takes a whole rowing crew, especially if … Maybe your kid’s got both arms. It still takes that. And that is, I think, a huge part of this, is what campus ministry are they gonna be involved in? Where are they gonna plug in so that they can swim that stream?

And here’s the other thing that we have to do. We can’t own their behavioral choices for them when they’re younger. I think we start letting them fail early while they’re under our roofs so they’re not so far away when disaster hits.

Jim: Right.

Michelle: And so I would tell any parent who’s saying, “No, you’re not going to the dance in that skirt. Let her wear the skirt and learn the lesson sometimes. It’s hard.” I asked her to go up and pray one time and let God handle it with her. This idea that Lynn and I have of the Father heart of God, and that’s what I told her when she left to go to school. I’m gonna get … Um, you know, I said, “I’m leaving, but He’s not. He’s always gonna be with you, and He is gonna carry you through this.” And that’s why we wrote this book, because some girl’s mom didn’t say that to her.

And we want these young women in college to know that they are not alone. That’s a lie. They may feel alone-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Michelle: … but they have a Heavenly Father who’s with them. And there is community out there. Maybe it’s gonna take six Bible studies to find the right one-

Jim: Right.

Michelle: … in three churches, you know? But it’s there for these girls, and they may get hurt sometimes, but He’s gonna help them heal from the hurt, and He’s gonna make ’em wiser, and they’ll be more protected the next time. And maybe they’re like her and the bank account is low, and He’s gonna provide. And, and we want them to begin to develop that strength and that resilience that can only come. It won’t-

Jim: Yeah.

Michelle: No parent can give that to them. Only their Heavenly Father can.

Jim: Yeah. Well, I think you get the passion-

Michelle: (laughs).

Jim: … from Michelle. Michelle-

Michelle: Yeah.

Jim: … thanks for those heart tears.

Michelle: Yeah.

Jim: And the mama tears that you have there. And I think you could see she is here for you. And she’s-

Michelle: Yeah.

Jim: … written this down in a great resource, Strong and Secure. You can get a copy just by calling us, getting in touch with us, and saying, “I’d like to get a copy of Michelle’s book.” If you can make a gift of any amount, monthly, one time, doesn’t matter, we’ll send the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry and being able to reach back to moms that need this kind of help. So let me say in advance, thank you for helping us.

John: And also, uh, check out our free Age & Stage eNewsletter, which is custom designed for you to get, uh, information to help you along in your parenting journey, uh, for whatever age your child is at, um, toddler to teen. Uh, that Age & Stage eNewsletter is free, and you can sign up on our website.

Jim: Also, John, let me read this, uh, testimony that we received. Michelle, this will go right to your heart. Uh, this is a woman, uh, named Anne from Nebraska. She says, “As a stay-at-home mom of three teenagers-”

Michelle: There you go.

Jim: (laughs) This is right up your alley.

Michelle: (laughs)

Jim: “I listen almost daily to your broadcast. The variety of your shows provides guidance and encouragement to me as a mom and wife. But also, as a Christian, I often find myself sharing episodes with friends and family,” which, by the way, as an aside, that is a great way to help us expand to new listeners. Send this to your friends that are struggling in this space.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: She went on to say, “God is really working through this ministry. You are in our prayers, and we are grateful for that.” So you’re gonna touch Anne and many of the Anne moms out there with the message you shared with us. So thank you, Michelle, for being with us.

Michelle: Thanks for having me.

John: And thank you for listening and donating to the ministry here of Focus on the Family. Get your copy of Michelle’s devotional book. It’s so good, uh, Strong and Secure. Just stop by our website or give us a call. We’re at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or you can call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

And coming up tomorrow, Pastor Gary Thomas will identify and dismantle the lies that can keep you stuck in life.

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Pastor Gary Thomas: If you don’t have this passion for this church, if you have a self-centered salvation, you don’t really know what the Christian life is like. You don’t have the passion for Jesus that will fill your heart.

End of Preview

John: On behalf of the team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.