Preview:

Pastor Gary Thomas: And so this self-centered-

Jim Daly: Mm.

Pastor Gary: … gospel that we preach has huge implications for the way that people live, and we miss out on the glory of living a selfless life.

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John: Well, what are some of the lies that rob you from intimacy with God? That’s what we’re gonna explore today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us, and I’m John Fuller.

Jim: John, I think we all kind of glom onto different lies. There’s obvious ones. I was looking at old advertisements not long ago. Doctors or actors playing doctors in white medical gear smoking cigarettes from the ’50s-

John: Yes.

Jim: … saying, “Smoking is healthy for you.”

John: (laughs)

Jim: That was kind of an obvious lie.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Maybe they didn’t have the data at the time, but the data certainly caught up to them that it’s not healthy. And there’s examples like that just in the natural course of life. But then there’s spiritual lies-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that really can, can catch us. And man, we have to be in the Word, know the Word, and be attuned to identifying what those lies are that the culture throws at us, that Christian culture can throw at us and how to discern those things. And I’m so glad to have Gary Thomas back. And we covered 8 of the 12 things that, uh, Gary was elaborating in his book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live. And we, again, covered 8 of those things.

For example, uh, pursuit of peace and attempts to control everything. Is anybody leaning into that one? Maybe living a life of adventure as Christians, which is a great goal, see this life as an adventure. And today, we’re gonna cover more from that book and I’m looking forward to it.

John: Yeah. And the previous conversation with Gary Thomas is, um, on our website. It’s available via the app and we’ll link to it in the show notes. Yeah, Gary is such a beloved guest here. Our audience always responds. He’s a great friend. He’s an excellent writer and speaker. Uh, he’s written numerous books on topics related to marriage and spiritual growth. And he’s currently on the pastoral teaching team at Cherry Hills Community Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado.

And as you said, Jim, the book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God. It’s available here at the ministry.

Jim: Gary, welcome back to Focus on the Family. So good to have you here in Colorado. (laughs)

Pastor Gary: Thank you for having me again, Jim.

Jim: It’s good. Hey, let’s get into this. There’s so many good aspects to this book. This is kind of a handbook for how Christians need to be in the Word and behave. And that’s what I love about this. I put this under the category of discipleship.

Pastor Gary: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Let’s get serious about our faith. Romans 12:2 tells us, “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” And, uh, we know that even if we do nothing, we’re still conforming to something.

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: This is one of the things that drives me nuts with contemporary Christian culture. And, and I pe- you know, it’s really dangerous to try to figure out if somebody’s truly saved. Man, that’s between them and God. You wanna nurture someone’s relationship with the Lord, but to try to play that broker-

Pastor Gary: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I would caution people not to do that. But encouraging people, as I would wanna be encouraged if somebody comes alongside and says, “Hey, I don’t know if you’re taking the Word seriously.” But here’s the point. When Christians call themselves Christians and they’re conforming to the world, whether there’s a hell or not, whether there’s, you know, the sexuality issue, “Paul really didn’t mean it in Romans-”

Pastor Gary: Right.

Jim: “… that you shouldn’t be attracted to the same sex.” And people get irritated. I’m like, “I’m not the author of the book. I’m just a follower of the book, and I’m not even the editor,” but that’s the point.

Pastor Gary: Right.

Jim: Some people wanna edit the book and not conform to the book. Speak to that discipline.

Pastor Gary: Yeah. Well, we don’t have permission to edit it. We’re to be faithful in passing down the teaching of Jesus and as apostles as applies to our culture. And the challenge with these lies is that they literally make us spiritually sick. Disobedience comes at a high cost.

You know, one of the things I heard growing up was that you don’t wanna go outside when it’s cold because you’ll catch a cold. That’s not how you catch a cold. In fact, especially in Colorado when the sun’s out, one of the healthiest things you can do is go outside in the sun. But, but it’s that old wives’ tale where everybody thought, “Oh, you’ll catch a cold, close the door, whatnot.” But now medical science tells us, no, it’s very healthy to be outside every day and get your vitamin D. So these spiritual lies have the same thing. If we believe them, they make us spiritually sick, even as medical lies make us physically sick.

Jim: You know, I think Lee Strobel would be happy with this, a former atheist journalist and came to Christ after trying to disprove to his wife that Jesus wasn’t real.

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: It’s an awesome story. Of course, he’s written all the case for, Case for Christ and, and a string of other books. And Lee’s a good friend, but you were in a journalism class and, uh, you talked about in this book, writing a good lead.

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: So what does writing a good lead look like, read like, sound like?

Pastor Gary: Yes. Well, I was in a number of journalism classes, but I wasn’t in the one where this professor gave an assignment to their students. The lead is the opening sentence. And it’s so important if anybody reads newspapers anymore, I don’t know.

Jim: Online you do.

Pastor Gary: But, but the reason that the lead is so important is, is somebody gonna read the second sentence? If you don’t have a good lead, then they’re like, “Well, this isn’t relevant to me. I don’t care about this. This isn’t that important.” So when we’re talking about what the Gospel is, the message of Jesus Christ, the most important message in eternity, we have to get the lead right. Why does it matter? What is important? What do we need to take away? If we get the lead wrong, uh, people just aren’t gonna be interested. Why does this even matter? And I think we’ve done that in some sense with the Gospel, sadly.

Jim: And, and what is that statement? I, you know, I read in the book. I know it. Um, it’s a bit of a rhetorical question, but, uh, what is the lead about Christ, about the Gospel, about the good news?

Pastor Gary: Okay. Well, here’s, here’s what the lead isn’t, and this will shock some people, but let me hear this out. What I grew up thinking the lead was this. The full Gospel is this. Jesus came in the flesh, died on the Cross and rose from the dead so that your sins could be forgiven and you could spend eternity in heaven.

Jim: And that is a good thing.

Pastor Gary: Yeah. Every word of that is true, but it’s not the full lead. Paul gives us the full lead when he writes the Corinthians, 2 Corinthians 5:15, “And he died for all that,” and that word that is so important. “And He died for all that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again.”

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: We’ve created a lead that talks about a self-centered salvation. “It’s all about me and where I spend eternity.” Paul taught a lead of the Gospel that focused on what is our mission on earth? What do we get done? And how we live selfless lives, giving ourselves a way to change this world, to bring God’s kingdom to this earth, not to just say, “Okay, I’ve got my salvation. I can live a selfish life, and as long as I know I’m gonna go to heaven when I die, all is well.”

Jim: Gary, this, this item right here, this issue is so critical. I don’t wanna just blow by it and go to the next one because this is what’s crippling the church, I believe, right now is that… And, and this is one of those lies we set up in the beginning, that we are self-centered-

Pastor Gary: Oh.

Jim: … as sinners. And recognizing that and then trying to live in that gray spot where you know you are, but it’s not good enough to just sit there. You need to become something better in Christ. You don’t sit there and go, “I’m a sinner. I might as well lie, cheat, and steal.” That’s not the Gospel.

Pastor Gary: Well, it has such wide implications. Just my wife and I were talking with a wife one time. She told us she was gonna divorce her husband and she admitted, “I don’t have biblical reasons. I know God isn’t good with it, but I’m still gonna go to heaven, right?”

Jim: Wow.

Pastor Gary: And, and that’s the implications of a self-centered salvation. As long as I’m still gonna go to heaven or a couple, they’re living together before they get married. It seems so old-fashioned to suggest that’s an issue. “Well, look, I know God isn’t good with this, but it’s not gonna send us to hell, right? We’re forgiven in Christ.” And so this self-centered gospel-

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: … that we preach has huge implications for the way that people live. And we miss out on the glory of living a selfless life. Every sin has a consequence. It robs us of joy and intimacy, spiritual power, uh, God using us in His kingdom. It’s emptying out the church, having this thing that salvation is about, having our sins forgiven so that we could go to heaven. When I say it’s really far more about being enlisted. We’re not just saved, we’re enlisted, we’re drafted onto God’s team to play a role. And what we hear today is people saying, “Come down from that cross,” just like they said to Jesus, right? “If you’re the son of God, come down from that cross.” Because they assumed if Jesus could come down from the cross, He would.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: The fact that He didn’t must have been evidence that He wasn’t really God. But Jesus proved his deity by staying on the cross. It was because He was the Son of God that He stayed on the cross. It wasn’t best for Him, but it was essential for us.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: And that’s the Gospel we need, not what’s best for me, what’s best for God’s work.

Jim: Yeah. And then you gotta start there. Gary, let me press a little bit more before we move to the next item. But, um, is it simply too difficult? Is it too difficult to live the Christian life? It’s kinda like, this sounds petty, but it’s almost like all the New Year’s resolutions. You could say, “I’m gonna become a better Christian. I’m gonna be better in Christ. I’m gonna, I’m gonna lose 20 pounds.” I mean, and then we can’t do it. It, it takes too much discipline-

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: … to do it. We’re talking about eternity and what the Lord requires of us, yet we have that same attitude, like, it’s like losing weight. Well, I can’t really do it. So is it, is it that it’s too difficult or is it that, and, you know, again, I just wanna hear your thoughts on that.

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: And if we’re stuck in this specific area about conforming to Christ, to the Word, what do we do to do better?

Pastor Gary: If it was, if Christianity was just about a book, it would be too difficult. But it’s about a book and the Holy Spirit. When God convicts us, He gives us the power through the Holy Spirit to do it, and we just have to call out that word come down from the cross. I, I talked to a physician, and I, I think a lot, you could apply this if you’re a high school teacher or a coach or a parent or just about anything, but she was just saying, “I don’t know if I can keep doing this,” because she was in a situation where the medical establishment she was a part of wanted her to see two or three dozen patients a day, which drove her crazy. She had, you know, drug addicts that come in and present symptoms for pain, so they’ll, she’ll give them opioids and they’ll scream at her if she doesn’t do it. People come in self-diagnosed; they’ve gone on WebMD, they know what their (laughs) problem is, forget her medical education. Uh, they’ll threaten her with, you know, one star Yelp reviews. Um-

Jim: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: … and, and she’s always just, you know, an enterprising lawyer away from a malpractice suit. And she just thought, “This is so hard.” Now, she fully believes, “This is what God created me to do. This is my ministry. It’s my calling. It’s my passion. But Gary, I, I, I don’t know. I mean, it’s just so frustrating.” And I was able to give her a verse that has changed my life. When Paul wrote to Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:5, when he said, “Endure hardship, discharge all the duties of your ministry.” And Paul was telling Timothy, “There will be hardship in your ministry if you’re living not a self-centered salvation, but a God-honoring surrendered salvation.” Sometimes you have to endure it, but you still discharge the duties of your ministry.

There’s gonna be points in marriage where I’m gonna say, “You have to endure this hardship, but discharge the duties.” You’re a husband, you’re a wife, you’re a parent, you’re a grandparent. And it might break your heart, but the self-centered salvation doesn’t have room for 2 Timothy 4:5. And here’s the thing, at the end of our life, we will look back, every act of obedience, we will be so glad we said yes. Every act of disobedience we’ll regret. So it’s not easy, but because of the Holy Spirit, it’s possible.

John: Mm.

Jim: That’s good.

John: Gary Thomas, he is our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And my goodness, he’s bringing passion-

Jim: (laughs)

John: … and, uh, scripture and truth.

Jim: Yeah.

John: So appreciate his heart and, uh, get a copy of his great book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live. Uh, we have that here. Get it from Focus on the Family and, uh, as you can, make a donation. Sustain this ministry and keep us going when you’re at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Gary, okay, we’ve covered one now. We’ve got to fly through the three others-

Pastor Gary: (laughs)

Jim: … I wanted to cover, but we’ve got the meaning of the Gospel. Now, from there, you also write as one of those lies, kind of dismantling apathy-

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: … towards the church.

Pastor Gary: Yes. Yes.

Jim: What’s the heart of that message?

Pastor Gary: We have such a self-centered view of attending church now. What does church give to me?

Jim: (laughs) Oh man. You’re killing me.

Pastor Gary: I- it’s what, what I can get out of it.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: When I read the Apostle Paul, his passion for the church, what he endured for the church, the sacrifices he made. And then today, how we have this consumer view, well, is a, “I like the worship. Do I like the preaching?” We have this attitude of what can I get from the church? And Paul had this attitude of, “I will donate my blood. I will donate my marrow for the health of the church.” And this will help our marriages. When you live for the church, it gives meaning to your marriage. It will help our kids. One of the best ways to keep our kids in the faith, I believe, is to get them used by the Holy Spirit. And, and look, God has used teenagers throughout history. Mary was a teenager.

Jim: Right.

Pastor Gary: You’ve got Francis, you’ve got Perpetua, an early martyr, and whatnot, where instead of the kids like this, they don’t like that, it’s what can you give to the church? I’m thinking, what would Paul say? Paul had two words, two sentences to describe him. “I’m a servant for the church and I work hard for the church. And regardless of what I do for a vocation, if I love Jesus, I have to love his bride.”

John: Mm.

Pastor Gary: I need to have a passion for the church. And I think the more that couples, married couples and grandparents and kids will get a vision for the church, the healthier they’ll be as Christians. It’s not a self-centered faith where it’s just about me and Jesus. We don’t experience the fullness of life in Christ if we’re not experiencing passion for His bride.

John: Mm.

Jim: Are you like my personal counselor here or what?

Pastor Gary: (laughs)

Jim: I mean, this is so good.

John: Mm.

Jim: I, this is so funny because I went to a lunch with a non-believer, a very good friend of mine who’s open to the Gospel. We’ve been having lunch together, you know, every couple of months for probably 12 years. And he’s a real successful businessman and all that. And, and I went and had lunch and I’m thinking on the drive to the lunch, “Lord, it’s gonna be nice at some point when you kinda release me to just, you know, catch my breath and relax, maybe work on my handicap.” I mean, that’s literally what I thought. I go into this lunch with this non-believer. He’s in his 80s, still working, and he puts his, you know, crooked finger on the table at the restaurant and says, “Jim, I hope you’re not thinking about improving your handicap and retiring before God wants you to retire.” He’s the non-believer.

Pastor Gary: Oh. (laughs)

Jim: And I’m going, “Ooh.”

Pastor Gary: That is classic. Oh. (laughs)

Jim: (laughs) Is that crazy?

Pastor Gary: Those voices.

Jim: Yeah. That’s so crazy.

John: Oh my.

Jim: I, I’ve gotta ask you, Gary, when it comes to the shortcomings of us human beings, and I’m talking in the church, we’re seeing a lot of… Well, I say that. We’re seeing a number of pastors failing somehow.

Pastor Gary: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Jim: Christian leaders failing somehow. You know, these same friends I’m talking about that are non-believers are asking me questions like, “You guys aren’t really doing it that well.” And I, you know, they’ll even say, “It seems like you guys are hypocrites.” And I’ll say, “Well, you know, to a degree we are. We’re not intentionally trying to find that bad place, but it happens. So we’re not perfect people. We’re trying to live it out well. Some people fall and stumble.” But more specifically for the body of believers that we’re talking to today on Focus on the Family, why is this happening? Why is simply ending well meaning don’t have an affair, don’t steal money, and don’t let your pride get in the way? And then they pat you on the back and go, “Well done.”

Pastor Gary: Yeah. Well, I think some of it goes back to self-centered salvation that we, ministry in some places is seen as an avenue of personal gain, whether it’s a claim, whether it’s finances, whether it’s a following. But I, I wanna be very clear. I don’t love the church because it’s perfect. I love the church because Christ is perfect and the church is Christ’s bride. There are, there are Christians that will embarrass us. There are Christians-

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: … who will frustrate us. We’re, we’re called to reach out to the hurting and hurting people hurt people (laughs) and they don’t tend to be grateful. Look at how they treated Jesus. Look at how they treated Paul. I said, Paul, you’re not that great of a speaker. Uh, you’re not that impressive as a person. We’re not even sure you’re preaching-

Jim: He’s a babbler.

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: I mean, and yet Paul said, this is, he goes, “Now I rejoice in what I’m suffering for you and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.” Paul is suffering for a church, many of which he had never met ’em. And he says, “I’m rejoicing because I’m suffering for you, but it’s building up Christ’s body, the church.” And so I think it’s, we gotta have a passion for Jesus, not just a passion for ministry work because that’s not gonna fill our souls. It is a passion for Jesus. And I, I think really one of the things that we lack where we fall into sin is an awe of God. We’re looking at ministry, not at, we’re just passionate about our love for Jesus wanting to lift up His name.

Jim: Gary, let me ask you this. I, it’s a sensitive question, but it’s a good one, I think. You know, so often in the church, we’re trying to put the best foot forward. We feel comfortable that way. “How you doing?” “I’m doing great.” All that. What if we had more authenticity in the church?

Pastor Gary: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I’m thinking of guys particularly. You look at some of the Barna data and other research data on porn addiction. It’s in the church, everybody. I mean, I’ve seen data as high as 68% of men in the church are looking at porn at least once a month. And at 28% of women in the church. So when we see that kind of honesty in an anonymous research project, wouldn’t it be great if we could have that honesty in the church itself when we’re going and we’re saying, “Man, I’m struggling in this area.” And rather than getting condemnation saying, “Okay, let’s get help. What do we need to do?”

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: “What’s your accountability? Put structures in place.” Wouldn’t that be the healthier way to go?

Pastor Gary: Oh, uh-

Jim: And then why don’t we do it that way?

Pastor Gary: I talked to a man who struggled with a sexual addiction and what he said broke my heart as a pastor. He responded appropriately. He went to 12 step groups. He had four times a year he was involved in a lie detector test-

Jim: Wow.

Pastor Gary: … with a trained detective.

John: Wow.

Jim: Wow.

Pastor Gary: He went through the classes. He, I mean, it was full on repentance where everything was checked. But what he said to me that broke my heart is he said, “Gary, when I’m in one of my recovery groups, I know everything about a guy. I know his triggers. I know his character strengths and weaknesses. I kind of know the family situation. I know the last time he sinned and what he’s most ashamed of and some of his childhood hurts. I don’t know his last name. I, I don’t know what neighborhood he lives in. I don’t know his job. I don’t know how much money he makes.” He goes, “I go to church on Sunday and it’s the exact opposite. I know who’s, who voted for this person, who roots for this team. I know what neighborhood they live in. I have an idea about how much money they make. I don’t know anything that’s going on in their soul.”

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: And I just thought, how do we get that community without having to go through addiction to get there? You’re pointing at it. Authenticity. We are all addicts of some kind.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: I mentioned in this book, my addiction to comfort, my addiction to sugar. I mean, I have things that really do drive me. And they might not seem as scandalous as others, but if we’re honest about that, then at least we can, we feel compassion for those who have fallen because we see that we’re fellow sinners. Jesus is the only hero. And, and we’ve got to stick-

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: … back with that. The, the church is not perfect. Jesus is perfect. That’s why we’re committed to the church because of Jesus.

John: Mm. I so appreciate your vulnerability. You do write in the book, Gary, about some of those addictions. We, we say addictions, but those desires for comfort. How, how-

Pastor Gary: My sugar’s pretty close to addiction.

John: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: Comfort is too, I’m gonna be honest.

John: What are the benefits of kind of addressing those physical things to kind of reflect the greater, deeper, uh-

Pastor Gary: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

John: … avoidance of comfort, if you will?

Pastor Gary: What I love what Paul does in Colossians is he tells us what to take off so that he tells us what to put on. He tells us to take off sexual immorality, because if you’re struggling with that and some of those issues you mentioned Jim, that’s what you’re thinking about, that’s what you’re talking to counselors about, that’s what you’re asking people to hold you accountable with. It becomes this big thing where you don’t see all of the little… (laughs) And I don’t wanna say little thing, where you don’t see all of the heart issues. And so Paul says, “Take off sexual immorality,” Colossians 3, “then anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language and lying.” He says, “But then put on compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience, and love.” And so we’re asking ourselves, if I’m struggling with these sins, if I’m, if I s- I just don’t wanna take a drink today or financial malfeasance or whatnot, I’m not thinking about was I kind when I was driving?

John: Mm.

Pastor Gary: Was I compassionate when that person shared with me or did I come off as holier than thou? Was I patient with that person? And Paul calls us to a whole different level of holiness, not what we don’t do, but really how we treat others who fail. If you think about it, compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience and love, Paul says our holiness is sort of determine how we treat people who aren’t very holy. (laughs) That’s the character of Christ. And so, I think we’ve gotta get rid of a lot of the sins of the flesh that mask the level of sin in our heart.

John: But that takes a lot of work, Gary.

Jim: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: Yeah. I, I read too many Puritans. (laughs)

Jim: I’m sweating already.

John: I mean-

Pastor Gary: That’s, that’s where they challenge us.

John: Well, we lean toward comfort though, I think is-

Pastor Gary: Oh yeah.

John: … is what you were driving at at one point in the book is that comfort is, that’s where it’s at, baby.

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

John: And, and that’s-

Jim: That’s not the goal.

John: … not the Christian calling.

Pastor Gary: No. Well, it, it’s funny because, uh, last time I came here, I stayed at the, the same place where, um, you guys put us up. And it’s nice, but for whatever reason, I couldn’t get the shower to regulate. It was super hot or super cold. Now, I’ve been there probably a dozen times. It’s not, it’s just a bad day. But it’s one of those showers where, okay, do I wanna be scalded or frozen?

John: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: But I got done with that shower and it hit me when I look at the life of Paul. My worst shower was Paul’s best.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Wow.

Pastor Gary: He never had a shower like that. When he traveled, he was in the open sea. He traveled on ships. They broke apart. I mean, you know, the prisons that he was in didn’t have toilets, they didn’t have faucets. It was stinky. It was, I mean, the OCD part of me, my skin wants to crawl even thinking about it. And so, when I look at the discomfort that Paul went through for the sake of the church, and I, I can’t put up with the one sermon that doesn’t seem particularly well thought out or a worship leader that goes off the rails or some annoying people in the church. Look, the church is filled with annoying people, but we’ve gotta welcome them. We, we don’t wanna go to the Bible studies because we’re like, “These really aren’t my people.” But if they’re God’s people, we have to respond with compassion, kindness, patience, and love-

John: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: … and sacrifice. Paul’s sacrifice for these people who’s never, he’s never met. And so, one of the reasons I wrote this, The Life You Were Reborn to Live, is if you don’t have this passion for this church, if you have a self-centered salvation, you don’t really know what the Christian life is like. You don’t have the passion for Jesus that will fill your heart. You’re gonna be more susceptible to those things.

Jim: Gary, this has been so good. And it, you know, I was thinking this might be the one-day program, but there’s so much here and it’s such good stuff for people to think about. Let’s go another day. Can you do it?

Pastor Gary: Love to.

Jim: And that way we can, uh, capture more of the wonderful content in your book, uh, The Life You Were Reborn to Live. And we hope you were encouraged by the conversation today. Gary’s book is a great tool that can help you unlearn the false beliefs that keep you from the abundant life Christ offers. And when you give a donation of any amount to Focus on the Family, we’ll send you a copy of Gary’s book to say thank you for partnering with us in ministry. And we’re counting on support from listeners who will work with us to strengthen marriages, equip parents, save pre-born babies’ lives, and reach more people with the Gospel.

And when you contribute to Focus on the Family, you’re sharing the love of God and vital resources with moms and dads like Peter who wrote to tell us this, “Because your program means so much to me, I’ve continued my donations even through a period of unemployment.” Wow, that is, man, that touches my heart. “I’ve been listening for well over a decade. It’s hard to find a place where problems and issues are spoken of in an open and frank way. It’s fantastic to hear relationship issues being addressed in a Christ-centered way. And now that I have a child, you make me feel not so alone in the world. I know that you help thousands, if not millions of people, and you lead us to seek solutions in Christ.” Whew.

John: Wow.

Jim: That is really good.

John: That’s an emotional word and we so appreciate that. That’s really encouraging, frankly. Uh, and so when you give to the ministry of Focus, you’re supporting parents like Peter, and we invite you to do so when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And on behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Gary Thomas, and once more, help you and your family thrive in Christ.