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Pastor Gary Thomas: And so this self-centered-

Jim Daly: Mm.

Pastor Gary: … gospel that we preach has huge implications for the way that people live, and we miss out on the glory of living a selfless life.

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John: Well, what are some of the lies that rob you from intimacy with God? That’s what we’re gonna explore today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us, and I’m John Fuller.

Jim: John, I think we all kind of glom onto different lies. There’s obvious ones. I was looking at old advertisements not long ago. Doctors or actors playing doctors in white medical gear smoking cigarettes from the ’50s-

John: Yes.

Jim: … saying, “Smoking is healthy for you.”

John: (laughs)

Jim: That was kind of an obvious lie.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Maybe they didn’t have the data at the time, but the data certainly caught up to them that it’s not healthy. And there’s examples like that just in the natural course of life. But then there’s spiritual lies-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that really can, can catch us. And man, we have to be in the Word, know the Word, and be attuned to identifying what those lies are that the culture throws at us, that Christian culture can throw at us and how to discern those things. And I’m so glad to have Gary Thomas back. And we covered 8 of the 12 things that, uh, Gary was elaborating in his book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live. And we, again, covered 8 of those things.

For example, uh, pursuit of peace and attempts to control everything. Is anybody leaning into that one? Maybe living a life of adventure as Christians, which is a great goal, see this life as an adventure. And today, we’re gonna cover more from that book and I’m looking forward to it.

John: Yeah. And the previous conversation with Gary Thomas is, um, on our website. It’s available via the app and we’ll link to it in the show notes. Yeah, Gary is such a beloved guest here. Our audience always responds. He’s a great friend. He’s an excellent writer and speaker. Uh, he’s written numerous books on topics related to marriage and spiritual growth. And he’s currently on the pastoral teaching team at Cherry Hills Community Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado.

And as you said, Jim, the book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God. It’s available here at the ministry.

Jim: Gary, welcome back to Focus on the Family. So good to have you here in Colorado. (laughs)

Pastor Gary: Thank you for having me again, Jim.

Jim: It’s good. Hey, let’s get into this. There’s so many good aspects to this book. This is kind of a handbook for how Christians need to be in the Word and behave. And that’s what I love about this. I put this under the category of discipleship.

Pastor Gary: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Let’s get serious about our faith. Romans 12:2 tells us, “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” And, uh, we know that even if we do nothing, we’re still conforming to something.

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: This is one of the things that drives me nuts with contemporary Christian culture. And, and I pe- you know, it’s really dangerous to try to figure out if somebody’s truly saved. Man, that’s between them and God. You wanna nurture someone’s relationship with the Lord, but to try to play that broker-

Pastor Gary: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I would caution people not to do that. But encouraging people, as I would wanna be encouraged if somebody comes alongside and says, “Hey, I don’t know if you’re taking the Word seriously.” But here’s the point. When Christians call themselves Christians and they’re conforming to the world, whether there’s a hell or not, whether there’s, you know, the sexuality issue, “Paul really didn’t mean it in Romans-”

Pastor Gary: Right.

Jim: “… that you shouldn’t be attracted to the same sex.” And people get irritated. I’m like, “I’m not the author of the book. I’m just a follower of the book, and I’m not even the editor,” but that’s the point.

Pastor Gary: Right.

Jim: Some people wanna edit the book and not conform to the book. Speak to that discipline.

Pastor Gary: Yeah. Well, we don’t have permission to edit it. We’re to be faithful in passing down the teaching of Jesus and as apostles as applies to our culture. And the challenge with these lies is that they literally make us spiritually sick. Disobedience comes at a high cost.

You know, one of the things I heard growing up was that you don’t wanna go outside when it’s cold because you’ll catch a cold. That’s not how you catch a cold. In fact, especially in Colorado when the sun’s out, one of the healthiest things you can do is go outside in the sun. But, but it’s that old wives’ tale where everybody thought, “Oh, you’ll catch a cold, close the door, whatnot.” But now medical science tells us, no, it’s very healthy to be outside every day and get your vitamin D. So these spiritual lies have the same thing. If we believe them, they make us spiritually sick, even as medical lies make us physically sick.

Jim: You know, I think Lee Strobel would be happy with this, a former atheist journalist and came to Christ after trying to disprove to his wife that Jesus wasn’t real.

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: It’s an awesome story. Of course, he’s written all the case for, Case for Christ and, and a string of other books. And Lee’s a good friend, but you were in a journalism class and, uh, you talked about in this book, writing a good lead.

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: So what does writing a good lead look like, read like, sound like?

Pastor Gary: Yes. Well, I was in a number of journalism classes, but I wasn’t in the one where this professor gave an assignment to their students. The lead is the opening sentence. And it’s so important if anybody reads newspapers anymore, I don’t know.

Jim: Online you do.

Pastor Gary: But, but the reason that the lead is so important is, is somebody gonna read the second sentence? If you don’t have a good lead, then they’re like, “Well, this isn’t relevant to me. I don’t care about this. This isn’t that important.” So when we’re talking about what the Gospel is, the message of Jesus Christ, the most important message in eternity, we have to get the lead right. Why does it matter? What is important? What do we need to take away? If we get the lead wrong, uh, people just aren’t gonna be interested. Why does this even matter? And I think we’ve done that in some sense with the Gospel, sadly.

Jim: And, and what is that statement? I, you know, I read in the book. I know it. Um, it’s a bit of a rhetorical question, but, uh, what is the lead about Christ, about the Gospel, about the good news?

Pastor Gary: Okay. Well, here’s, here’s what the lead isn’t, and this will shock some people, but let me hear this out. What I grew up thinking the lead was this. The full Gospel is this. Jesus came in the flesh, died on the Cross and rose from the dead so that your sins could be forgiven and you could spend eternity in heaven.

Jim: And that is a good thing.

Pastor Gary: Yeah. Every word of that is true, but it’s not the full lead. Paul gives us the full lead when he writes the Corinthians, 2 Corinthians 5:15, “And he died for all that,” and that word that is so important. “And He died for all that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again.”

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: We’ve created a lead that talks about a self-centered salvation. “It’s all about me and where I spend eternity.” Paul taught a lead of the Gospel that focused on what is our mission on earth? What do we get done? And how we live selfless lives, giving ourselves a way to change this world, to bring God’s kingdom to this earth, not to just say, “Okay, I’ve got my salvation. I can live a selfish life, and as long as I know I’m gonna go to heaven when I die, all is well.”

Jim: Gary, this, this item right here, this issue is so critical. I don’t wanna just blow by it and go to the next one because this is what’s crippling the church, I believe, right now is that… And, and this is one of those lies we set up in the beginning, that we are self-centered-

Pastor Gary: Oh.

Jim: … as sinners. And recognizing that and then trying to live in that gray spot where you know you are, but it’s not good enough to just sit there. You need to become something better in Christ. You don’t sit there and go, “I’m a sinner. I might as well lie, cheat, and steal.” That’s not the Gospel.

Pastor Gary: Well, it has such wide implications. Just my wife and I were talking with a wife one time. She told us she was gonna divorce her husband and she admitted, “I don’t have biblical reasons. I know God isn’t good with it, but I’m still gonna go to heaven, right?”

Jim: Wow.

Pastor Gary: And, and that’s the implications of a self-centered salvation. As long as I’m still gonna go to heaven or a couple, they’re living together before they get married. It seems so old-fashioned to suggest that’s an issue. “Well, look, I know God isn’t good with this, but it’s not gonna send us to hell, right? We’re forgiven in Christ.” And so this self-centered gospel-

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: … that we preach has huge implications for the way that people live. And we miss out on the glory of living a selfless life. Every sin has a consequence. It robs us of joy and intimacy, spiritual power, uh, God using us in His kingdom. It’s emptying out the church, having this thing that salvation is about, having our sins forgiven so that we could go to heaven. When I say it’s really far more about being enlisted. We’re not just saved, we’re enlisted, we’re drafted onto God’s team to play a role. And what we hear today is people saying, “Come down from that cross,” just like they said to Jesus, right? “If you’re the son of God, come down from that cross.” Because they assumed if Jesus could come down from the cross, He would.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: The fact that He didn’t must have been evidence that He wasn’t really God. But Jesus proved his deity by staying on the cross. It was because He was the Son of God that He stayed on the cross. It wasn’t best for Him, but it was essential for us.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: And that’s the Gospel we need, not what’s best for me, what’s best for God’s work.

Jim: Yeah. And then you gotta start there. Gary, let me press a little bit more before we move to the next item. But, um, is it simply too difficult? Is it too difficult to live the Christian life? It’s kinda like, this sounds petty, but it’s almost like all the New Year’s resolutions. You could say, “I’m gonna become a better Christian. I’m gonna be better in Christ. I’m gonna, I’m gonna lose 20 pounds.” I mean, and then we can’t do it. It, it takes too much discipline-

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: … to do it. We’re talking about eternity and what the Lord requires of us, yet we have that same attitude, like, it’s like losing weight. Well, I can’t really do it. So is it, is it that it’s too difficult or is it that, and, you know, again, I just wanna hear your thoughts on that.

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: And if we’re stuck in this specific area about conforming to Christ, to the Word, what do we do to do better?

Pastor Gary: If it was, if Christianity was just about a book, it would be too difficult. But it’s about a book and the Holy Spirit. When God convicts us, He gives us the power through the Holy Spirit to do it, and we just have to call out that word come down from the cross. I, I talked to a physician, and I, I think a lot, you could apply this if you’re a high school teacher or a coach or a parent or just about anything, but she was just saying, “I don’t know if I can keep doing this,” because she was in a situation where the medical establishment she was a part of wanted her to see two or three dozen patients a day, which drove her crazy. She had, you know, drug addicts that come in and present symptoms for pain, so they’ll, she’ll give them opioids and they’ll scream at her if she doesn’t do it. People come in self-diagnosed; they’ve gone on WebMD, they know what their (laughs) problem is, forget her medical education. Uh, they’ll threaten her with, you know, one star Yelp reviews. Um-

Jim: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: … and, and she’s always just, you know, an enterprising lawyer away from a malpractice suit. And she just thought, “This is so hard.” Now, she fully believes, “This is what God created me to do. This is my ministry. It’s my calling. It’s my passion. But Gary, I, I, I don’t know. I mean, it’s just so frustrating.” And I was able to give her a verse that has changed my life. When Paul wrote to Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:5, when he said, “Endure hardship, discharge all the duties of your ministry.” And Paul was telling Timothy, “There will be hardship in your ministry if you’re living not a self-centered salvation, but a God-honoring surrendered salvation.” Sometimes you have to endure it, but you still discharge the duties of your ministry.

There’s gonna be points in marriage where I’m gonna say, “You have to endure this hardship, but discharge the duties.” You’re a husband, you’re a wife, you’re a parent, you’re a grandparent. And it might break your heart, but the self-centered salvation doesn’t have room for 2 Timothy 4:5. And here’s the thing, at the end of our life, we will look back, every act of obedience, we will be so glad we said yes. Every act of disobedience we’ll regret. So it’s not easy, but because of the Holy Spirit, it’s possible.

John: Mm.

Jim: That’s good.

John: Gary Thomas, he is our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And my goodness, he’s bringing passion-

Jim: (laughs)

John: … and, uh, scripture and truth.

Jim: Yeah.

John: So appreciate his heart and, uh, get a copy of his great book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live. Uh, we have that here. Get it from Focus on the Family and, uh, as you can, make a donation. Sustain this ministry and keep us going when you’re at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Gary, okay, we’ve covered one now. We’ve got to fly through the three others-

Pastor Gary: (laughs)

Jim: … I wanted to cover, but we’ve got the meaning of the Gospel. Now, from there, you also write as one of those lies, kind of dismantling apathy-

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: … towards the church.

Pastor Gary: Yes. Yes.

Jim: What’s the heart of that message?

Pastor Gary: We have such a self-centered view of attending church now. What does church give to me?

Jim: (laughs) Oh man. You’re killing me.

Pastor Gary: I- it’s what, what I can get out of it.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: When I read the Apostle Paul, his passion for the church, what he endured for the church, the sacrifices he made. And then today, how we have this consumer view, well, is a, “I like the worship. Do I like the preaching?” We have this attitude of what can I get from the church? And Paul had this attitude of, “I will donate my blood. I will donate my marrow for the health of the church.” And this will help our marriages. When you live for the church, it gives meaning to your marriage. It will help our kids. One of the best ways to keep our kids in the faith, I believe, is to get them used by the Holy Spirit. And, and look, God has used teenagers throughout history. Mary was a teenager.

Jim: Right.

Pastor Gary: You’ve got Francis, you’ve got Perpetua, an early martyr, and whatnot, where instead of the kids like this, they don’t like that, it’s what can you give to the church? I’m thinking, what would Paul say? Paul had two words, two sentences to describe him. “I’m a servant for the church and I work hard for the church. And regardless of what I do for a vocation, if I love Jesus, I have to love his bride.”

John: Mm.

Pastor Gary: I need to have a passion for the church. And I think the more that couples, married couples and grandparents and kids will get a vision for the church, the healthier they’ll be as Christians. It’s not a self-centered faith where it’s just about me and Jesus. We don’t experience the fullness of life in Christ if we’re not experiencing passion for His bride.

John: Mm.

Jim: Are you like my personal counselor here or what?

Pastor Gary: (laughs)

Jim: I mean, this is so good.

John: Mm.

Jim: I, this is so funny because I went to a lunch with a non-believer, a very good friend of mine who’s open to the Gospel. We’ve been having lunch together, you know, every couple of months for probably 12 years. And he’s a real successful businessman and all that. And, and I went and had lunch and I’m thinking on the drive to the lunch, “Lord, it’s gonna be nice at some point when you kinda release me to just, you know, catch my breath and relax, maybe work on my handicap.” I mean, that’s literally what I thought. I go into this lunch with this non-believer. He’s in his 80s, still working, and he puts his, you know, crooked finger on the table at the restaurant and says, “Jim, I hope you’re not thinking about improving your handicap and retiring before God wants you to retire.” He’s the non-believer.

Pastor Gary: Oh. (laughs)

Jim: And I’m going, “Ooh.”

Pastor Gary: That is classic. Oh. (laughs)

Jim: (laughs) Is that crazy?

Pastor Gary: Those voices.

Jim: Yeah. That’s so crazy.

John: Oh my.

Jim: I, I’ve gotta ask you, Gary, when it comes to the shortcomings of us human beings, and I’m talking in the church, we’re seeing a lot of… Well, I say that. We’re seeing a number of pastors failing somehow.

Pastor Gary: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Jim: Christian leaders failing somehow. You know, these same friends I’m talking about that are non-believers are asking me questions like, “You guys aren’t really doing it that well.” And I, you know, they’ll even say, “It seems like you guys are hypocrites.” And I’ll say, “Well, you know, to a degree we are. We’re not intentionally trying to find that bad place, but it happens. So we’re not perfect people. We’re trying to live it out well. Some people fall and stumble.” But more specifically for the body of believers that we’re talking to today on Focus on the Family, why is this happening? Why is simply ending well meaning don’t have an affair, don’t steal money, and don’t let your pride get in the way? And then they pat you on the back and go, “Well done.”

Pastor Gary: Yeah. Well, I think some of it goes back to self-centered salvation that we, ministry in some places is seen as an avenue of personal gain, whether it’s a claim, whether it’s finances, whether it’s a following. But I, I wanna be very clear. I don’t love the church because it’s perfect. I love the church because Christ is perfect and the church is Christ’s bride. There are, there are Christians that will embarrass us. There are Christians-

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: … who will frustrate us. We’re, we’re called to reach out to the hurting and hurting people hurt people (laughs) and they don’t tend to be grateful. Look at how they treated Jesus. Look at how they treated Paul. I said, Paul, you’re not that great of a speaker. Uh, you’re not that impressive as a person. We’re not even sure you’re preaching-

Jim: He’s a babbler.

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: I mean, and yet Paul said, this is, he goes, “Now I rejoice in what I’m suffering for you and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.” Paul is suffering for a church, many of which he had never met ’em. And he says, “I’m rejoicing because I’m suffering for you, but it’s building up Christ’s body, the church.” And so I think it’s, we gotta have a passion for Jesus, not just a passion for ministry work because that’s not gonna fill our souls. It is a passion for Jesus. And I, I think really one of the things that we lack where we fall into sin is an awe of God. We’re looking at ministry, not at, we’re just passionate about our love for Jesus wanting to lift up His name.

Jim: Gary, let me ask you this. I, it’s a sensitive question, but it’s a good one, I think. You know, so often in the church, we’re trying to put the best foot forward. We feel comfortable that way. “How you doing?” “I’m doing great.” All that. What if we had more authenticity in the church?

Pastor Gary: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I’m thinking of guys particularly. You look at some of the Barna data and other research data on porn addiction. It’s in the church, everybody. I mean, I’ve seen data as high as 68% of men in the church are looking at porn at least once a month. And at 28% of women in the church. So when we see that kind of honesty in an anonymous research project, wouldn’t it be great if we could have that honesty in the church itself when we’re going and we’re saying, “Man, I’m struggling in this area.” And rather than getting condemnation saying, “Okay, let’s get help. What do we need to do?”

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: “What’s your accountability? Put structures in place.” Wouldn’t that be the healthier way to go?

Pastor Gary: Oh, uh-

Jim: And then why don’t we do it that way?

Pastor Gary: I talked to a man who struggled with a sexual addiction and what he said broke my heart as a pastor. He responded appropriately. He went to 12 step groups. He had four times a year he was involved in a lie detector test-

Jim: Wow.

Pastor Gary: … with a trained detective.

John: Wow.

Jim: Wow.

Pastor Gary: He went through the classes. He, I mean, it was full on repentance where everything was checked. But what he said to me that broke my heart is he said, “Gary, when I’m in one of my recovery groups, I know everything about a guy. I know his triggers. I know his character strengths and weaknesses. I kind of know the family situation. I know the last time he sinned and what he’s most ashamed of and some of his childhood hurts. I don’t know his last name. I, I don’t know what neighborhood he lives in. I don’t know his job. I don’t know how much money he makes.” He goes, “I go to church on Sunday and it’s the exact opposite. I know who’s, who voted for this person, who roots for this team. I know what neighborhood they live in. I have an idea about how much money they make. I don’t know anything that’s going on in their soul.”

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: And I just thought, how do we get that community without having to go through addiction to get there? You’re pointing at it. Authenticity. We are all addicts of some kind.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: I mentioned in this book, my addiction to comfort, my addiction to sugar. I mean, I have things that really do drive me. And they might not seem as scandalous as others, but if we’re honest about that, then at least we can, we feel compassion for those who have fallen because we see that we’re fellow sinners. Jesus is the only hero. And, and we’ve got to stick-

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: … back with that. The, the church is not perfect. Jesus is perfect. That’s why we’re committed to the church because of Jesus.

John: Mm. I so appreciate your vulnerability. You do write in the book, Gary, about some of those addictions. We, we say addictions, but those desires for comfort. How, how-

Pastor Gary: My sugar’s pretty close to addiction.

John: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: Comfort is too, I’m gonna be honest.

John: What are the benefits of kind of addressing those physical things to kind of reflect the greater, deeper, uh-

Pastor Gary: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

John: … avoidance of comfort, if you will?

Pastor Gary: What I love what Paul does in Colossians is he tells us what to take off so that he tells us what to put on. He tells us to take off sexual immorality, because if you’re struggling with that and some of those issues you mentioned Jim, that’s what you’re thinking about, that’s what you’re talking to counselors about, that’s what you’re asking people to hold you accountable with. It becomes this big thing where you don’t see all of the little… (laughs) And I don’t wanna say little thing, where you don’t see all of the heart issues. And so Paul says, “Take off sexual immorality,” Colossians 3, “then anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language and lying.” He says, “But then put on compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience, and love.” And so we’re asking ourselves, if I’m struggling with these sins, if I’m, if I s- I just don’t wanna take a drink today or financial malfeasance or whatnot, I’m not thinking about was I kind when I was driving?

John: Mm.

Pastor Gary: Was I compassionate when that person shared with me or did I come off as holier than thou? Was I patient with that person? And Paul calls us to a whole different level of holiness, not what we don’t do, but really how we treat others who fail. If you think about it, compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience and love, Paul says our holiness is sort of determine how we treat people who aren’t very holy. (laughs) That’s the character of Christ. And so, I think we’ve gotta get rid of a lot of the sins of the flesh that mask the level of sin in our heart.

John: But that takes a lot of work, Gary.

Jim: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: Yeah. I, I read too many Puritans. (laughs)

Jim: I’m sweating already.

John: I mean-

Pastor Gary: That’s, that’s where they challenge us.

John: Well, we lean toward comfort though, I think is-

Pastor Gary: Oh yeah.

John: … is what you were driving at at one point in the book is that comfort is, that’s where it’s at, baby.

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

John: And, and that’s-

Jim: That’s not the goal.

John: … not the Christian calling.

Pastor Gary: No. Well, it, it’s funny because, uh, last time I came here, I stayed at the, the same place where, um, you guys put us up. And it’s nice, but for whatever reason, I couldn’t get the shower to regulate. It was super hot or super cold. Now, I’ve been there probably a dozen times. It’s not, it’s just a bad day. But it’s one of those showers where, okay, do I wanna be scalded or frozen?

John: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: But I got done with that shower and it hit me when I look at the life of Paul. My worst shower was Paul’s best.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Wow.

Pastor Gary: He never had a shower like that. When he traveled, he was in the open sea. He traveled on ships. They broke apart. I mean, you know, the prisons that he was in didn’t have toilets, they didn’t have faucets. It was stinky. It was, I mean, the OCD part of me, my skin wants to crawl even thinking about it. And so, when I look at the discomfort that Paul went through for the sake of the church, and I, I can’t put up with the one sermon that doesn’t seem particularly well thought out or a worship leader that goes off the rails or some annoying people in the church. Look, the church is filled with annoying people, but we’ve gotta welcome them. We, we don’t wanna go to the Bible studies because we’re like, “These really aren’t my people.” But if they’re God’s people, we have to respond with compassion, kindness, patience, and love-

John: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: … and sacrifice. Paul’s sacrifice for these people who’s never, he’s never met. And so, one of the reasons I wrote this, The Life You Were Reborn to Live, is if you don’t have this passion for this church, if you have a self-centered salvation, you don’t really know what the Christian life is like. You don’t have the passion for Jesus that will fill your heart. You’re gonna be more susceptible to those things.

Jim: Gary, this has been so good. And it, you know, I was thinking this might be the one-day program, but there’s so much here and it’s such good stuff for people to think about. Let’s go another day. Can you do it?

Pastor Gary: Love to.

Jim: And that way we can, uh, capture more of the wonderful content in your book, uh, The Life You Were Reborn to Live. And we hope you were encouraged by the conversation today. Gary’s book is a great tool that can help you unlearn the false beliefs that keep you from the abundant life Christ offers. And when you give a donation of any amount to Focus on the Family, we’ll send you a copy of Gary’s book to say thank you for partnering with us in ministry. And we’re counting on support from listeners who will work with us to strengthen marriages, equip parents, save pre-born babies’ lives, and reach more people with the Gospel.

And when you contribute to Focus on the Family, you’re sharing the love of God and vital resources with moms and dads like Peter who wrote to tell us this, “Because your program means so much to me, I’ve continued my donations even through a period of unemployment.” Wow, that is, man, that touches my heart. “I’ve been listening for well over a decade. It’s hard to find a place where problems and issues are spoken of in an open and frank way. It’s fantastic to hear relationship issues being addressed in a Christ-centered way. And now that I have a child, you make me feel not so alone in the world. I know that you help thousands, if not millions of people, and you lead us to seek solutions in Christ.” Whew.

John: Wow.

Jim: That is really good.

John: That’s an emotional word and we so appreciate that. That’s really encouraging, frankly. Uh, and so when you give to the ministry of Focus, you’re supporting parents like Peter, and we invite you to do so when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And on behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Gary Thomas, and once more, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

**********

Part 2:

Preview:

Pastor Gary Thomas: The Bible keeps pushing us toward these pursuits that are towards service, that have eternal impact, not toward our self-centeredness and, and not toward just making an impression in this world, which, you know, is like a vapor.

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John Fuller: That’s Pastor Gary Thomas sharing biblical wisdom for living a fulfilling life. And he’s back with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: And I’ve been so challenged by what Gary has shared so far because these lies that he’s talking about are things all of us have struggled with. Yesterday, we talked about several of the lies in Gary’s book, including the lie that you need to be comfortable. So get the Focus on the Family app, uh, to listen to that full episode, and we’re here to help you not just survive, but to thrive in Christ. I love that tagline, it’s on purpose. Uh, we are going to be covering some of the barriers that might be in your way to the abundant life that Christ provides. So stick with us, this is gonna be good content.

John: Yeah, Gary is an excellent writer and communicator. He’s got a number of books on topics related to marriage and spiritual growth. Uh, he’s currently on the pastoral teaching team, uh, up the road a bit in Highlands Ranch, Colorado at Cherry Hills Community Church. Now, today we’re gonna be discussing his book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live, and we’ve got details on our website.

Jim: Gary, welcome back. It’s so good to have you. And, uh, man, we covered some things yesterday that were really tender. And we’re all kinda shackled by things in this life. You know, I’m so grateful that Paul said, “I see through the glass dimly,” right? But especially in this area of adversity, and I, I think in the West, particularly here in the US, man, we, we see ourselves as blessed when we’re on top of it all. Yet the scripture, that great scripture that says He’s “close to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit,” almost like a prerequisite that the Holy Spirit is seeking because it’s humility. That’s what that is. When you’re crushed in spirit, you’re humble. You’re not thinking you’re the best, but as a competitor, as a guy that enjoyed winning when I played football and, you know, just being on top of it, I, I struggle with this one. This is one where, you know, I’m asking myself that self-centered salvation. That’s not the spirit of God, is it?

Pastor Gary: It’s … I, I don’t know who said it because I heard many people say it, but it’s true. Before God can use you, He must break you.

Jim: Yeah. Now you-

Pastor Gary: I’ve heard major pastors say that.

John: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: I’ve heard that. And it, it gets back to my mentor, J. I. Packer had this one I love because he challenges self-centered salvation and our addiction to comfort with this. He says, “It’s a mistake to imagine that the good for which God works is our unbroken ease and comfort.” I thought that. God’s goal is rather our sanctification and Christlikeness, the true holiness that is the highway to happiness. And so before God can use this, He often has to break us.

I, I tell in the book the story of, um … I came down with keratoconus. It’s a degenerative eye disease where you have a misshapen cornea. And when I was first diagnosed, there really wasn’t any way that they could treat it except for replacing the cornea. It, it didn’t freak me out so much because when he saw how bad my eyesight is, it’s like 20/400, which 20/500 is the worst. So … (laughs)

Jim: You’re right there on the edge for an award.

Pastor Gary: Um, but he said, “Well, it could be a brain tumor. It could be this or that.” And then they came back, it’s keratoconus. And they gave me pamphlets. “Well, here’s a support group for it.” I said, “I don’t need a support group. I thought you told me I might have a brain tumor. (laughs) I can live with one eye.” And I kind of do. My brain doesn’t use my other eye.

But, um, because I’ve lived with this, and it’s just the main problem. You know, John, you’re active. When I’m riding a bike, it’s a real pain-

John: Mm.

Pastor Gary: … ’cause it’s my left eye. I can’t see. (laughs) Well, you, you-

Jim: (laughs) I know. It’s easy.

Pastor Gary: … you shoot, but you shoot with one eye, right?

Jim: (laughs)

John: Yeah. (laughs)

Pastor Gary: You can get those animals down with one eye.

John: Yeah. Yeah.

Pastor Gary: Um-

John: I have a balance issue, so I’m totally tracking with you.

Pastor Gary: Yeah. And so it’s, it’s-

Jim: I’m teasing.

Pastor Gary: … it’s, it’s hard for me on the bike. It scares my wife, but I, I still love to ride. But, um, when my daughter in her early 30s came down with that, immediately-

John: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: … we were on it. You gotta get checked out. And yeah, she was diagnosed with it and they’re able to treat it.

Jim: So she was ahead of the curve because of you?

Pastor Gary: Because I had keratoconus, she’s never gonna have to live with it.

Jim: Wow.

Pastor Gary: And if you ask me as a dad, do you wanna live with this-

John: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: … so that your daughter doesn’t? I mean, what dad would say …

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: Yeah, absolutely. That’s it. That’s exactly how Paul says ministry works.

John: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: Uh, addicts that now help other addicts, people with broken marriages that now help other people with broken marriages. Uh, we were talking about Bo Mitchell, who’s been on here before. Uh, they’ve had issues. You, you think of Chuck Colson, what he went through, how God used what people thought was either something done to them or their greatest failure, it can be both, became a platform for incredible ministry-

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: … for the rest of their life.

Jim: They both went to prison.

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: For those that don’t know.

John: Bo and Chuck.

Pastor Gary: And if you’re addicted to comfort, prison isn’t in your plans. (laughs)

Jim: Right.

Pastor Gary: But how much God has used that-

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: … to bless others.

Jim: Hey, Gary, I wanna take a, a small break, uh, in our discussion because some people listening and watching might be going, “Man, they’re just laying on the guilt right now.”

Pastor Gary: No.

Jim: I mean, who can live that way? Does God really, uh, dislike us if we wanna have a air conditioner and a washer and dryer and a refrigerator that keeps our food cold? So just clarify that-

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: … for the critic who’s going, “Yeah, we’re not going back to the caveman days.”

Pastor Gary: Uh, we don’t have to look for crosses. Life in this fallen world will bring them to us.

John: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: The whole idea though is the attitude because-

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: My whole passion for this book is will you love Jesus more when you go through this? ‘Cause you’re gonna go through it. And I don’t want the lie that somehow God is unhappy with you because you’re facing it or that you should be angry with God. I, I share in the book a story for me. I’ve, I’ve run distance running my entire life from the time I was a teenager in, in high school. And yet I’ve had these knee issues that now have become more serious where I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to run another one again.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: My orthopedic surgeon who worked on my knee said, “You probably shouldn’t. You’re gonna cause more problems.” But going through this, realizing I need adversity, I came out of it with this. Instead of being bitter, “God, I can’t believe you take this away. I need it for my health, for my emotional health, for my relational health, my mental health, my spiritual health.” I realize what I need most is to be close to God, not to run. And if I let the inability to run become a point of contention between me and God, I’m still not gonna be able to run, but I lose what I value most and what I need most, what I depend upon most.

And so adversity’s gonna come, discomfort’s gonna come. Don’t seek it out. And we’re not talking about being a masochist. I think that’s, that’s a mental illness. That’s not spiritual health. But if you accept that we’re all an unfinished product, there’s a lot-

Jim: And don’t make an idol of it.

Pastor Gary: Yeah. We, we’re unfinished product. There’s a lot that God has to refine and maybe there’s a lot that God wants to do in your life. Maybe God wants to use you in ways you can’t even imagine, but He’s gotta burn off a few things before He can put you in the game.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Gary, when you said that about your knees, the one thing … I’m recovering from my second rotator cuff, that’s why I’m not really moving my right arm very well here. But when you said that, you know, that, that God somehow took that ability from you. I wanna, just for a second, let’s explore that because people … You know, God could also say to you, “Well, you put 50 years of running-”

Pastor Gary: (laughs)

Jim: “… on those knees that weren’t meant to do that.”

John: (laughs)

Jim: And I … You know, just have a little fun with that.

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: But there are people with serious illnesses.

Pastor Gary: Oh, yes.

Jim: And they … Some will have anger toward God because “if God loved me, He wouldn’t do this.”

Pastor Gary: Right.

Jim: Is God really the puppeteer, or is it partially the fact that we wear our bodies out? We may not eat right. We may not exercise right. We may not eat … You know, we’re eating too much processed food, you know, all those things.

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: So I wanna be a little careful there that everything’s attached to God’s puppeteering and-

Pastor Gary: Yeah, no.

Jim: “You know, you’re running a little too much, Gary.”

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: “You’re not spending enough time with me, so I’m gonna, boom, I’m gonna give you knee arthritis-”

Pastor Gary: Yeah.

Jim: “… so you can sit and talk with me.” I don’t think it’s that way. I, but I don’t know. These are, you’re the pastor.

Pastor Gary: Yeah. Well, there are many causes. That why I hate to answer that question with a direct yes or no. There are consequences. If you drink your liver into failure-

Jim: Right.

Pastor Gary: … that’s a consequence.

Jim: Right.

Pastor Gary: But we’ve all known people who get lung cancer who have never smoked.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: So I think some of those are unanswerable questions. I don’t present myself as a Bible answer man. As a pastor, I’m trying to help people process it that we have to surrender. Because even if God didn’t cause it, and I’m not saying He does, they’re saying, “Well, God could heal it. He’s healed this person and that person.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: “He hasn’t healed me.”

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: And when I look historically at how awful life was for the saints that preceded us, you know, giants of the faith, Charles Spurgeon, who lived with depression for his entire career, the Apostle Paul who lived with a thorn in his flesh. Now, some people would say that wasn’t physical, but he lived with something in his life that was at least uncomfortable. He said, “God, please take it away.” And God said, “No, I’m not gonna do that.” God used Paul literally to perform miracles for others, but he didn’t give Paul the miracle to release that discomfort. And so-

Jim: Great reminder.

John: Mm.

Pastor Gary: I just come to the point that my attitude is to surrender. If people wanna get into a great classic on this. Uh, Thomas Brooks’ Mute Christian Under the Smarting Rod is one of the great Christian classics on how we will learn most when we’re quiet in our suffering and try to learn the lessons instead of just chitter-chattering, “God, you gotta-”

Jim: What a title.

Pastor Gary: Yeah. Well-

Jim: I mean-

Pastor Gary: … a, a, a friend of mine who I, I’m sure I’ve mentioned him on these podcasts before, he so inspires me. He was a weightlifter. He got MS. When he was first diagnosed, I mean, athleticism was his identity. And he kept saying, “God, heal me, heal me, heal me, heal me, heal me.” He said, “I prayed all day. Heal me, heal me, heal me, heal me.” Until God finally stopped him and said, “Daryl, I’m gonna heal you, but I’m gonna use MS to heal something you’re not aware of and that’s your pride.”

Jim: Wow.

Pastor Gary: 30 years later, I’m talking to his wife. She didn’t connect these. She just said, “Gary, Daryl is the most humble man I’ve ever known, and God uses him in so many powerful ways.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: When he was athletic and charismatic, he commanded the room and he thought he needed to be healed of this. And God said, “I’m gonna use this that you don’t like to cure this that you’re not even aware of.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: God loves us. He wants to use us. And look, if we could see what He’s preparing for us as Paul did, Paul got to see the third heaven. And I think that’s why he was willing to endure every discomfort on the Earth. He’s telling, “Hey guys, just hang on for a little bit. Here’s what’s coming.”

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: If we could see that, we wouldn’t-

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: … complain about a hot or cold shower (laughs) or … And, and I’m not … Look, I’m not diminishing the pain of going through real physical travails. I’ve got some of my closest friends, real physical travail right now. But I still think what Paul says, it pales in comparison. If we could see the glory that’s ahead of us-

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: … our complaints would cease-

Jim: Yeah. So good.

Pastor Gary: … and we would serve and surrender.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You, you write also in the book about, and these are your words, but, um, rejecting earthly splendor. And, you know, we’re in that orbit right here, so we’ll talk about that. But it’s in the context of something else you said, which is to, you reject earthly splendor to live a rich toward God life.

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: Put that together for us.

Pastor Gary: Yeah. The world is telling us what will make you happy, and God says there’s something entirely different that will make you happy. And we have to completely reject being conformed to this world that I will be happier if I look younger than I am, if I’m wealthier than I am, uh, if I’m well known more than I am. When scripture would say, “Actually, you’ll be happier if you become a wiser person, if you become a selfless servant, if you focus on eternity over a claim. What matters for us in eternity is what one person thinks of us, not what a crowd thinks of us.” If you’re trying to please the crowd, you’re always gonna be susceptible to compromising your faith. But if you live a rich toward God life, there’s an audience of one that you wanna please.

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: I, I think the best example of that is in the Book of Acts, months before the apostle Paul died, he’s brought in, in front of Agrippa II and Bernice.

Jim: I love this scene.

Pastor Gary: Um, and I mean, Agrippa II was on the cusp of decades of influence and opulence and wealth and success. He cozied up to the Roman powers and was just so well. Living a very immoral life. Bernice was not his wife. She was his sister, but they live like husband and wife. There were lots of rumors, but people were afraid to say anything because you could lose your head if you said anything.

Um, and so Paul’s brought in months before he dies, pulled out of a prison, scrawny. His back looks like a monstrosity of scars. I’m sure he’s smelly. Um, the Pharisees are saying of Paul, “He’s not fit to live.” And you look at that and you’d say, “Agrippa wins and Paul loses. He’s got all the power, all the comfort, all the wealth, all the acclaim. Paul has nothing and he’s soon gonna die.” 2,000 years later, I don’t think there’s a day in the world where Paul isn’t studied, quoted, preached on.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: Uh, uh-

Jim: Think of that.

Pastor Gary: Not a day. I think you could say an hour everywhere. Somebody’s studying, reading his words. If I say in a church, “Paul said,” everybody knows who I’m talking about. If I go to anybody and say, “Well, Agrippa II said,” they’re like, “Who? What?” Uh, you look at that scene and it looked like Agrippa won. He didn’t. Paul won. So it’s the rich toward God life is, is looking at who wins not by the world’s current definition. When Jesus said, “Such it will be of everyone who does not live a life that is rich toward God.”

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: And He was talking about a person who said, “I’m gonna build bigger barns, uh, and eat, drink-”

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: “… and be merry for tomorrow. We may die.” And then he loses it the next night.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Wow. What a reminder, Gary. And, uh, Gary Thomas is our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. He’s sharing some pretty convicting thoughts about the lies that hurt our relationship with God. And to discover even more of his insights about spiritual living, look for his book called The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God. We’ve got that here on our website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Uh, Gary, let me pick up on the idea of pursuing wisdom, and we’ll probably end here, uh, with the next couple of questions. But pursuing wisdom, oh, the scripture, and I know you’ll quote it for us. It’s one of the main things we’re supposed to do-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … is pursue wisdom and to cherish it, to treat it better than gold or silver. And if you wanna live a rich, full life, you will pursue wisdom. Okay, with that baseline, so many things are distracting us.

John: Yeah.

Jim: We’ve got AI coming on. “Well, if I need wisdom, I’ll just go to AI, ask her what to do,” or him, whatever you wanna call it. But the, the point is, there’s a, something about the human heart pursuing wisdom that makes your spirit, your soul better.

Pastor Gary: Right.

Jim: Speak to that.

Pastor Gary: The Bible goes out of its way to exalt wisdom, that it’s really the one race. We don’t want a neglect to run. Proverbs 16:16 says, “How much better to get wisdom than gold, to get insight rather than silver.” And, and Jim, how many people at the end of this year are thinking, “I’m more concerned about has my retirement number grown, or am I wiser this year than I was last year?”

Jim: Ooh, that’s a great comparison.

Pastor Gary: And we talk about why the church was in the shape it was. Hosea 4:6 tells us, “My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge, that it’s because we don’t value wisdom.” And so we’re on these, I think these vain pursuits, I keep talking about it, but the world thinks I’m gonna have a more successful life. It’s more important to look younger than I am rather than to focus on becoming wiser than I am. Eventually, that’s a losing battle. Your knees are gonna tell the true story (laughs) eventually.

Jim: Right.

Pastor Gary: You can do a lot of things to your face, but eventually-

Jim: (laughs)

Pastor Gary: … people are gonna realize this person isn’t in their 20s anymore. But if women would say, “Look, what if you could give a wiser mom or grandmother or wife or sister or friend to the church than a woman that looks younger than she really is?” And what is a better gift you can give to the world? Because if I’m trying to look younger, I’m trying to impress people. If I’m trying to become wiser, I wanna be a resource to people.

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: What makes more spiritual sense? And the same thing with wealth. Why do I want more wealth? So that I can feel comfortable, so that I can spend it on myself. Or do I wanna have wisdom, a spiritual wealth that is there only to give away?

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: And, and so the Bible keeps pushing us toward these pursuits that are towards service, that have eternal impact, not toward our self-centeredness and, and not toward just making an impression in this world, which, you know, is like a vapor.

John: Mm.

Jim: You know, one thing, Gary, we often, uh, will say this very quickly. “You know, I’d like to read the Christian classics. I’d like to be informed, but, you know, you- it’s a load. I’ve got work.” But what you encourage people to do is take that inventory. How much time are you on social media?

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: How much time are you watching sports? Ouch. Uh, you know, those things that we’re replacing the pursuit of wisdom with. And I, you know, yeah, that’s another cold slap of reality to say that’s not a good enough reason to say I’m too busy. Really.

John: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: I … My catchphrase is try to read more than you watch.

Jim: Uh-huh.

Pastor Gary: And when I say this, let me, I know we talked to a lot of moms here too. Moms, if you’re raising kids, screen time literally makes us more stupid. There was a 2015 study published in the journal Cerebral Cortex. I know you all probably get that at home.

John: Weekly.

Pastor Gary: You might have missed this issue.

John: I get it weekly (laughs).

Pastor Gary: It shows that watching too much TV or screen time actually alters the composition of the human brain. It lowers IQ. It frustrates our kids’ language acquisition. It increases psychological difficulties. They have a more difficult time facing stress, greater anxiety, more depression. It reduces their attention and it reduces their ability to manage anger. Whereas reading strengthens the neural pathways. And so if you can encourage your kids to read more than they watch, you’re building up their brain-

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: … rather than diminishing it. You’re helping them become who God created them to be and who the world doesn’t want them to be.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: I gotta tell you this, the world doesn’t want intelligent, thoughtful, logical Christians like Dorothy Sayers and, and C. S. Lewis, those that could just unlock the wisdom of heaven. Uh, they want people who are focused on being entertained and put into a catatonic state, so they just go along and they’re good little citizens of the world rather than powerful servants of the kingdom of God.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s a great statement. I, I think we have sufficiently … Well, let me be personal. You have sufficiently slapped me upside the head.

Pastor Gary: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Jim: And I’m sure people watching and listening feel the same way in a good way. You know, it’s kinda like a good football coach that’s gonna motivate you to play better by riding you a little bit, right?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: ‘Cause he knows that response mechanism, your competitiveness. And as Paul writes about that, run the race to win it.

Pastor Gary: Yes.

Jim: And so in this context, the practical things that we can do, and I’m giving you the moaning and the complaining, so set it up. We’re in a counseling session. You’re saying, “This guy needs more wisdom.” And I say, “Well, Gary, I’d like to, but I’m just too busy.” Give me two or three practical things that you would counsel as a pastor, that man or woman in front of you that gives you the excuses and how you would say, “Here’s two things I’d like you to try.”

Pastor Gary: Okay. It begins with valuing wisdom. You won’t make the sacrifices. The, the Proverb writer says, “Though it costs all you have, get understanding.” So Proverbs says there’s a cost. It’s gonna cost you some entertainment, some screen time, some comfort, but if you value it, you’re gonna pursue it.

If I could tell a story about my son, he got two master degrees at Harvard, which is significant because they get all of the great, uh, titans of industry, the, the people who write literature, uh, actors, Hollywood moguls, you name it, come, they all wanna give a lecture there at, at Harvard. And I saw Graham, because he was doing two master’s there during a vacation. One was an MBA and one was public policy with the Kennedy School. And he was reading this very long book that didn’t … I couldn’t see how it could fit in with the MBA or the public policy program. I said, “What’s up with this?” He said, “Well, I’ve noticed something that’s in common with all of the super successful people who lecture at Harvard.” I said, “What’s that?” “They watch little television and they read a lot of books.”

Jim: Mm.

Pastor Gary: And I felt like if I wanna make the most of my life, I should probably do the same thing. So first, value wisdom. Second, I think it’s amazing how much you can read if you will devote the time. For me, it’s in the morning. I’m reading from three sources in the morning. I’m reading from Scripture. I read from a Christian classic. I read from a contemporary book. I like to read good novels because I think it increases my EQ, uh, emotional intelligence. Uh, I’m a guy. It helps me become more aware of that. I’m reading books as I’m, I’m studying and whatnot. But so history, biography, good novels, theology. I think every Christian should be studying one good doctrine a year. This last 2025 was the 1700th anniversary of the Nicene Creed.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Pastor Gary: So I read a couple books on the Nicene Creed and the Trinity. That will make your brain spin a little bit, trying to figure that out. But if you just do that a year, this year I’m gonna read on the atonement. Maybe I’ll read on the ascension. Maybe I’ll read on doctrines of grace. You know, just every year you decide you’re gonna have one thing. And if, if you just set aside that time, almost all of us have the time. When you look at the average screen time now, can be eight to nine hours a day.

Jim: Yeah. Wow.

Pastor Gary: Nobody’s gonna be reading eight or nine hours a day. So let me just be honest. So can you take one of those hours and watch screens for seven hours a day? Um, and it doesn’t have to be just reading. My wife will stress this. Good podcasts, like (laughs) Focus on the Family pri- … I mean, there’s wisdom that you can get-

Jim: Yeah, that’s true.

Pastor Gary: … just as you’re driving down the road. You don’t have to be reading a book. Uh, podcasts, there are lectures. Um, I think most of us need more than one sermon a week. Modern church life is such that we want a 30, 35-minute sermon once a week. I- in other ages of the church, they would put up with two-hour sermons and then they’d have one Sunday night and one Wednesday. Well, with what we have available online, you can get some of the best preaching in the world on a regular basis.

Jim: Well, there’s the challenge, and we need to aim for that and try it. I mean, if you’re spending that kind of time on social media, cut the eighth of it out and see (laughs) if you can do better-

Pastor Gary: (laughs) Yeah.

Jim: … just taking that time to do some reading. Gary, a wonderful, um, discussion these past two days about how to get on track to make the kingdom of heaven, uh, come to this earth through your efforts in Christ. I mean, there’s so many things. I can’t even recap it all in terms of conforming to the Word, not the Word conforming to you. We’ve covered all those things. And let me just say a simple thank you for the hard work you put into the book to remind us what it means to be Christian and to take it more seriously. I appreciate it.

Pastor Gary: Well, thank you. These truths have, have changed my life. Uh, I have much less success trying to lose the same 20 pounds I’ve been trying to lose (laughs) for the last five years since I haven’t been able to run.

Jim: Yeah.

Pastor Gary: Uh, but I feel like I lose a lot of spiritual weight when I get rid of the lies that I’ve heard in this world that nobody questions, going to Scripture and seeing the truth. It’s like taking a spiritual bath.

Jim: That’s it.

Pastor Gary: It is the life we were reborn to live. There’s no better life to live.

Jim: Well, it’s so true, Gary. And, you know the Scripture, it is the mirror of truth. It looks right in our hearts and says, you know, what it is it sees in us.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Right? And it’s, uh, that’s part of it. Let me turn to the listener and just ask you to get in touch with us if you’re struggling with some of these lies and could use some extra support to know, like Gary said, what is true. Uh, we have a team of caring Christian counselors available for consultations completely free. You can sign up at our website.

Another next step is to get a copy of Gary’s great book. It’s one of the best resources out there for growing in your walk with the Lord. Uh, when you make a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family, we’ll send you a copy of Gary’s book to say thank you for partnering with us in doing ministry. And together, you get a great resource, and Focus can help more people because of your financial help.

We provide biblical resources to support families. That’s what we’re here to do, but we can’t do it without donations from listeners like you. So much of what you hear in the media is so negative and we wanna reach more people with the hope that only Christ can offer. We had one listener share this with us. “I always look to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to find positivity. (laughs) There are some dark places on the internet. Thank the Lord there is a voice in the wilderness.” Whew, that is so good. And that is a great place to stand for people, that voice in the wilderness calling out. We want to say thank you to those of you who do partner with us so we can be that voice for so many listeners. If you haven’t made a donation before, join with us and together we’ll provide support for even more families.

John: Yeah, make your contribution today, and request your copy of the book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live, and to connect with one of our caring Christian counselors when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or all the details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And thanks so much for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.