Day One:
Preview:
Alisa Childers: I truly believe that what we’re seeing happen with a lot of people who deconstruct and get rid of these beliefs, is they’ve never really tasted that the Lord is good, as it says in 1st Peter. They haven’t tasted the beauty of the Christian worldview.
End of Preview
John Fuller: Welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Today, we’re gonna have a timely discussion about a movement that is sweeping across social media, and it really is impacting the church. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, I don’t mention this very often, but I wanna paint a picture for the listeners, the viewers on YouTube-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … about what we walk in here every day trying to do. So it’s, uh, evangelism and discipleship. A lot of people don’t know last year we had 190,000 people come to Christ through Focus.
John: Yeah.
Jim: I think it’s because family is such a place to talk about beliefs.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Right?
John: Yeah.
Jim: So, it’s natural. So I’m really happy that we’re impacting people like that. But then, of course, it’s marriage and parenting, advocacy for kids with foster care program, our option ultrasound program. And then finally culture, how do we engage the culture in a way that is Christ, uh, ordained, you know, long-suffering, all the fruit of the spirit, being kind to people, et cetera.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I’d say today’s program fits the culture component and the disciple component.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we are gonna talk about deconstruction. Many of you might be saying, “What is that? It sounds like a big word.” And we’re gonna get those definitions today from two great guests.
John: Yeah. We’ve got Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett with us. And, uh, they’re both parents and apologists, and they’re passionate about understanding the truth, especially as it comes to this matter of faith deconstruction. How do we look at that? We’ll be discussing, uh, some of the concepts in the book they’ve co-written called The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why It’s Destructive, and How to Respond. And you can learn more about our guests and this great book on our website, and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Alisa and Tim, welcome to the program. Good to have you.
Alisa: It’s great to be here.
Tim Barnett: Thanks for having us.
Jim: Both first timers.
Alisa: Yes. Yes.
Jim: (laughs)
Alisa: First time.
Jim: Well, we should’ve had you here a long time ago, but it’s great to talk with you about this really important topic.
Tim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, The Deconstruction of Christianity is so timely, and the culture seems to be writhing in this. In fact, uh, people in Europe that I’ve talked to, we have a film coming out later this year called Truth Rising, and we interviewed a lot of the both non-Christian and Christian academics from Europe, North America. It’s gonna be a great film.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I’m probably tipping, uh, (laughs) our hand to that right now. But in there, I would say a core component of it is how to manage a culture that is jettisoning the Judeo-Christian value system. A deconstruction of what Western civilization has been built upon, right?
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I’m really interested, there are atheists that have become Christians in this film more recently, and even-
Alisa: Wow.
Jim: … atheists who have said, you know, the Judeo-Christian value system is the best social structure, ’cause it-
Alisa: Hmm.
Jim: … it delivers the highest quality of human being. These are atheists-
Alisa: Yeah.
Jim: … and they’re saying we have to be really smart about that component before it’s jettisoned. Isn’t that amazing?
Alisa: Yeah, it’s fascinating.
Tim: Totally.
Jim: So, when you get to the definition of deconstruction, I think, uh, in the book you mentioned, uh, John Cooper, who’s with Skillet, which is, uh, a band. And I mean, the guy is tatted up. I’ve seen him on the I Am Second website. If you haven’t gone to that, go check it out-
Tim: Really nice.
Jim: … ’cause there’s testimonies of people sitting in a chair just telling you what they experienced about God, and he’s one of those powerful testimonies. And he, he referred to the fact that we need to declare war-
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … on this deconstruction. So, give it to me, what is that top line about Deconstruction of Christianity?
Alisa: Yeah, deconstruction is a very loaded term. In fact, if you ask, we always joke, if you ask 10 people what deconstruction means, you’re gonna get 11 different definitions.
Tim: Hmm.
Alisa: And that’s one of the reasons we wanted to write the book when we did, because we were observing this thing happen in culture and in the church, and then we were seeing people talk about it in various ways. Now, my story is kind of related to this because I had a really significant faith crisis over 10 years ago.
Tim: Hmm.
Alisa: And I thought I had deconstructed because I busted my worldview down to the studs, I rebuilt. It was difficult, agonizing, it took years. And so I talked about my deconstruction, but as I watched the deconstruction movement, I started to realize that’s not exactly what happened to me, because I was always searching for truth outside of myself, objective truth. And I wanted to line up what I believed with what was true. But as we were studying deconstruction, we noticed that’s not exactly what’s happening. So, we do wanna acknowledge that lots of people are using this word to mean everything from perhaps-
Tim: Hmm.
Alisa: … questioning a secondary doctrine you were taught in your particular denomination all the way to leaving the faith altogether. And so we were thinking if it means everything, it means nothing.
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: So it has to mean something. So we wanted to define it according to how it’s manifesting in culture, and according to its philosophical history, ’cause this word in this context has a history. So-
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: … Tim, if you, if you wanna give us the big drum roll definition.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: Well, and the, and the connection to John Cooper that you saw-
Tim: Sure,
Alisa: Oh, yeah.
Jim: … the video.
Tim: Sure. So, he was on… It was at Winter Jam.
Alisa: Yeah.
Tim: And he’s in front of over 15,000-
Jim: Sounds fun.
Tim: It was awesome.
Jim: Winter jam!
Tim: 15,000 young people-
John: Big concert event.
Jim: Outside?
Tim: Uh, this was indoors.
Jim: Okay, good. It wouldn’t happen in Colorado.
Alisa: (laughs).
Tim: Yeah, that’s right. And he gets up there and says, “It’s time for us and your generation to declare war against this idolatrous deconstruction Christian movement.”
Jim: Wow.
Tim: And he got a thunderous applause. But in the aftermath, when this video went viral, not everyone agreed. In fact, this thing was being talked about by all the Christian news out outlets-
Alisa: Major platforms, yeah.
Tim: They were saying that, “Look, John Cooper is declaring war against people who have doubts, and he has a fundamental misunderstanding of what deconstruction is.” And so it occurred to us, man, this word, because it has different meanings, it’s, uh, people are not being able to talk to each other, in fact, they’re talking past each other. Someone needs to bring clarity into this conversation. And so this is, uh, this got, uh, Alisa and I talking about, okay, what does this word actually mean?
Jim: The definition.
Tim: That’s right. And when we started out, we thought, you know what, maybe you could talk about good deconstruction and bad deconstruction.
Jim: Okay.
Tim: Or healthy deconstruction and unhealthy deconstruction. So we’re just adding adjectives to the word. But the more we research what the deconstruction movement is all about, we realized there’s nothing healthy about this. In fact-
Alisa: There’s no good deconstruction.
Tim: Deconstruction is not a neutral word that you can just add adjectives to it. There’s something fundamental to it.
Jim: So for the listener and the viewer right now, what is the definition?
Tim: Okay, so here’s where we landed, and this was the hardest sentence in the entire book to write.
Jim: Interesting.
Tim: Deconstruction is a postmodern process of rethinking your faith without requiring scripture as a standard.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tim: Now, there’s two key elements in that definition. One is that it’s a postmodern process. So it has to do with truth. In fact, the process isn’t truth-directed. It’s not truth-oriented, something else is going on. And the second part is that it’s a postmodern process of rethinking your faith without requiring scripture as a standard. There’s an authority problem. The Bible scripture is not an authority, something else is the authority, usually it’s the self.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tim: And so truth and authority, those are two fundamental elements in this process. Deconstruction is not just a that, it’s a how, it’s a methodology. It’s how people are thinking and rethinking their faith.
Jim: And we’re gonna spend, uh, today and next time getting into all of this. So we’re gonna peel the onion, so to speak.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But let me ask you about the movement.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: Because again, I think for some, you think of conspiracy theory-
Alisa: (laughs).
Tim: (laughs).
Jim: You know, so there was this big conference about how to deconstruct Christianity, and everybody went to it, and they walked away with their marching orders.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: What, what does that mean that there’s a movement to deconstruct the Christian faith?
Tim: Hmm. Well, I would say without social media, there is no deconstruction movement.
Jim: Oh, okay.
Tim: Social media has brought people together in a way that, uh, it’s never happened before. Where unbelievers, people reconsidering their faith, people wanting to leave their faith, are able to find these online spaces, online communities. They’re finding deconstruction coaches, you can go to people and pay them.
Alisa: And there are conferences. There’s-
Jim: There really are.
Alisa: … conferences, t-shirts.
Jim: I was just a shot in the dark there.
Tim: No, no.
Alisa: Absolutely.
Tim: There was Decon 2023-
Jim: Decon.
Tim: Decon 2023. And if you went to the lineup of speakers, what you would find is it’s a whole bunch of TikTokers.
Alisa: Yep.
Tim: People, not Bible scholars. These are influencers on social media who have massive accounts. Some of ’em have half a million people that follow them. And their entire account is set up merely to mock ridicule and challenge Christianity. Every day they post videos. And by the way, Alisa and I, part of our job, our day job, is to respond to this nonsense. And so we’re online, we’re going to conferences, and we’re answering these challenges one by one, because people desperately need answers.
Jim: Alisa, let me ask you, the word toxic flies through our culture.
Alisa: Yes.
Jim: Toxic masculinity is kind of the buzz right now, but they also talk about, uh, Christianity being toxic. What’s the source of that, and what’s the fallibility of that comment?
Alisa: Right. One of the fundamental things about deconstruction that we discovered, and we kind of touched on this when we talked about truth, but people in the deconstruction movement are not necessarily looking for what’s true.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: They’re looking for what is in, in, according to their own internal compass, what feels healthy, what feels liberating. Um, and so you’re gonna hear words like toxic theology, uh, abusive doctrines. And what they mean by that is things like objective claims like, “We’re all sinners. We need a savior. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Um, biblical sexuality.” These types of things are viewed as toxic beliefs. And so-
Jim: That Jesus died for our sins is toxic.
Tim: Yeah.
Alisa: Yes. Yeah-
Jim: That’s amazing.
Alisa: … so in fact, many people in the deconstruction hashtag, if you mention substitutionary atonement, the idea that Jesus died in our place or took our punishment upon Himself, they say, “Well, that turns God into a cosmic child abuser. And now we’re just talking about child sacrifice, and how could you worship a God that needs a blood sacrifice of His own son”-
Jim: And it feels twisted.
Alisa: … just so you can be reconciled.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: Yeah. So-
Jim: Just super twisted.
Alisa: It is twisted. And so there’s a lot of talk conversation in that hashtag about abuse. And so because they view Christian beliefs as toxic, um… Well, and some by the way, will still consider themselves to be Christians, but they are progressive Christians, meaning they’ve denied all of those core fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith.
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: But it’s the impetus for them to disconnect from their church, and sadly from their blood families is really strong because it’s not, and this is so important for people to understand if you have loved ones who are deconstructing.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: It’s not that your loved one thinks that you’re wrong. They think that you’re toxic, they think you’re abusive, you’re unsafe. So the impetus to disconnect from you is very strong. And so they find, as Tim mentioned, these communities online that will affirm them, celebrate them, and completely just celebrate this new journey in their life.
Jim: Yeah. And let me, let me throw this one, and either one of you can jump on this. The, the tolerance issue in the culture, you know, we’ve had other guests on that have talked about this, how high a value the culture places on tolerance. So if you come along and say, “There is a truth, there’s an absolute truth when it comes to the definition of marriage, human sexuality”; “Whoa, that’s toxic.”
Tim: Yeah.
Alisa: Yes.
Jim: “Because you’re trying to tell me what truth is, and my truth doesn’t match your truth.”
Alisa: That’s exactly right.
Jim: I mean, it’s a pretzel of logic. It’s hard. And the fact that we have de-anchored from absolute truth that scripture is true is the core problem.
Alisa: Right. In fact, it, it’s funny ’cause you’ll even see many posts in this hashtag that will say things like, “Oh, your pastor might be telling you to deconstruct, but deconstruct with your Bible in your hand.” And they just mock that idea.
Tim: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Alisa: Because the whole idea in the deconstruction movement as we see it online, which is mainly where it’s happening, is that you have to free yourself from the oppressive, uh, mentality that is this idea of biblical authority.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: Like, if you still think the Bible is your authority, then you haven’t really come into your true, authentic self, you are just being handed beliefs. These aren’t really your beliefs. So the virtuous thing to do is to deconstruct the root, you know, whatever that paradigm of truth is that you were given by your stream you grew up in, and then figure out what you think is most healthy for you.
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: And so often that’s just jetting the entire Christian worldview, because like you mentioned, that’s based on objective truth.
Jim: Well, and that’s why people need to get a copy of the book.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Because we’re, we’re only gonna scratch the surface in two days-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and people need to get this for more information.
John: Right. And the book title again, The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why it’s Destructive, and How to Respond, written by Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett. And, uh, stop by our website to get a copy at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And Alisa, just to dial in a little more practically, I have a young adult with me who is online, and it seems like he really is seeking his theology from these various online prophets and speakers. And I don’t have an issue with some of them, but how do I talk with him about actually there is this Bible thing, and this contradicts the Bible. How do I, how do I engage him on that?
Alisa: Well, that’s a tough question because a lot of times you have to do a little diagnosis to figure out how much truth someone is actually seeking for. Because when I had my faith crisis over 10 years ago, I remember hearing arguments, and then I’d hear the counter argument, and then I’d go seek out the counter argument to the counter argument. And sometimes on one question, it would be years of even reading scholarly literature to try to get to the bottom of the answer to the question. The problem with TikTok theology is you have videos where somebody takes 20 seconds to deconstruct the Christian worldview. And typically how that goes is they present a fact that they assume the church has kept from you. It’s usually a fact that people have known for a long time, but they’ll present it as if it’s new. “Now you probably never heard this, and the church doesn’t want you to know this, and here’s what you should conclude based on this information.” And so they lead to a skeptical conclusion. And so that leads the person who’s watching the video to go, “Wow, truth has been kept from me. The church doesn’t want me to know about this.”
John: And they, they get distrustful then.
Alisa: That’s right. And then with the attention span of social media-
John: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: … they’re not gonna probably do the deeper work of figuring out what the counter arguments are in the back and forth of the debate, because they’re moved on to the next TikTok video with the algorithm.
John: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: More of those types of videos are gonna come into their newsfeed-
John: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: … and before you know it, they’re in an echo chamber and completely brainwashed.
Tim: So these deconstruction theologians are planting the seeds of doubt, the seeds of skepticism in these videos. And as Alisa just pointed out, they’re using hashtags like #evangelical, #ex-evangelical. And if you watch one of these videos, the way the algorithm works is you’re gonna end up seeing a video just like it. And all of a sudden that one doubt becomes a whole lot more.
John: Mm-hmm.
Tim: And the students are wondering, is any of this true? And so it’s really important that when we have young people in our homes who have access to social media, especially, we’re talking about what are the kind of videos that you’re watching. Um, one of the things I do with my ministry is called Red Pen Logic with Mr. B, where we take a red pen to a lot of the social media nonsense out there. I’m responding directly to those talkers and those Instagram Reels. They’re, you know, one minute and I’ll… Give me two minutes and I’ll respond to it. And this is really helpful for young people especially ’cause they can watch the challenge and see, “Wow, feel the weight of it. This is pretty compelling,” until you hear the other voice, until you hear the response.
Jim: Yeah, it’d be good to link to that-
Tim: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: … so people can tap and go check that out. That’d be awesome.
Tim: Awesome.
Jim: But I, and I think for us as Christians in the culture, it means we have to know what we believe.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, and to a degree, and I’m certainly guilty of this too, we kind of have just kind of slid along here-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: … ’cause the culture generally embraced Christianity up until the last 30, 40 years, right?
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: Then there’s been an aggressive attempt to rid the culture of this toxic faith, et cetera.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, Alisa, let me, let me ask you to paint a picture. You’ve mentioned a couple times your deconstruction and what you were going through. Uh, like John Cooper with Skillet, you came outta the music industry. Describe what was going on and, and what was getting your attention at the time.
Alisa: Yeah. Well, growing up, uh, in Southern California, I grew up as a Christian, very devoted Christian my whole life. I read almost the whole Bible by the time I was 12 years old.
Jim: Boy, that’s good.
Alisa: I, I really loved the Word of God. I loved Jesus. We did a lot of evangelism in my family, we did a lot of homeless ministry. Just loved the Lord my whole life. Now, of course, I didn’t always live that out perfectly, but I never doubted what I believed. And so even going into music, none of that changed. Now, I will admit that touring wore me down. It, it made me sort of apathetic. I, I take full responsibility for this, but I wasn’t really connected to a local church during my touring years. Um, and touring can make you a bit cynical and jaded. And so I had some of those elements going on that I think were setting me up for this. But when ZOEgirl ended and we came off the road, I dunno if I said that I was a member of the group, ZOEgirl from ages ago. But when ZOEgirl ended and we came off the road, my husband and I, by this point, we were married, we had a, our, our first child. And I really wanted to make sure that our kids grew up in church. And so we started attending a couple churches, but we landed at a church that really seemed like people were like-minded with us. Uh, we loved this church. The pastor had a more intellectual, kind of calm approach, which we both really loved. But after attending there for about eight months, the pastor invited me to be a part of a smaller study and discussion group. And he said, this is gonna be like going to seminary. And I was really excited because I always knew what I believed, but I wouldn’t have been able to defend it intellectually. And so long story short, over the course of about four months, this pastor, basically who I learned later had fully deconstructed by this point, was deconstructing the members of his church in these private classes, and in private meetings. And, uh, I lasted about four months. We left the church, I left that class. But when that happened, I was really isolated, and I didn’t have… ’cause I would try to debate with him in the class-
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: … and I didn’t have anybody to debate with anymore. And it really brought me to the edge of agnosticism, where he had persuaded me intellectually that the Bible was corrupted, that I didn’t have an accurate copy of God’s Word, that they didn’t even have historical accuracy in what they wrote. And this led me to the, the cliff of, does God even exist at all? But I knew, I knew that I was a sinner, and I knew that if Jesus hadn’t died on the cross for my sins, I was doomed. And so I, I cried out to the Lord one night and I just said, “God, if you’re real, if everything I’ve believed about you my whole life is true, I, I need you to show up.” But I didn’t need Him to show up with an experience. I had a lot of experience. I needed information. And God was so faithful to lead me to study all sorts of different things like church history, biblical scholarship, philosophy, anything I could get, even some science-
Jim: Kind of foundational truth.
Tim: Yes. Yeah.
Alisa: Yes. And just to piece together my worldview. And so I built back up from the ground up and concluded at the end of that process that the historic Christian worldview is true, that Jesus is who He said He is, the Bible is reliable, and that He did die for my sins, and I can put my trust in Him and be saved. And, and so that was what I thought was deconstruction. But when I realized after studying deconstruction, that’s not typically what happens. People aren’t searching for what’s true. They’re not going to read the biblical scholarship on both sides. They’re watching TikTok and they’re thinking, “Oh, maybe the church has been keeping this for me. So maybe it’s all, you know, it’s all just not true.” But it’s so often-
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: I think based on morality, they don’t like biblical morality.
Jim: Right. And I, I would add the word, they’re watching TikTok and believing-
Tim: Yeah.
Alisa: That’s right.
Jim: What they’re hearing-
Alisa: They’re not questioning it. Yeah.
Jim: … and they’re not questioning it. Let me ask you guys, we’re, you know, we’re zeroing in at the end here for today, and we’ll come back, uh, tomorrow and continue the conversation. But why, why is that pastor, what is the motivation really? What benefit do they see other than feeling good that we can embrace a sinful lifestyle, and not really object to it, and not give people a light about the, uh, destructive nature of that, and God’s plan for marriage, for family, et cetera? I mean, what studying it the way you two have, what, what’s at the core of the assault?
Alisa: Yeah.
Jim: I mean it sounds satanic, if I could say it that way. It’s spiritual warfare.
Tim: Absolutely.
Alisa: Yes. Yeah.
Tim: Uh, I’d love to hear your thoughts on this too, Alisa, but, um, there’s like an evangelistic zeal-
Alisa: Yes.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Right.
Tim: … that, that they don’t lose. These evangelical pastors end up deconstructing, but they don’t lose that zeal. And so there’s something about them that wants to bring people along with them. They want to follow. And so, I mean, there’s lots of warnings in scripture about this kind of thing. I mean, you read II Timothy and there’s warning after warning after warning about making shipwreck of your faith and, and following after Satan, and these kinds of things. And, um, and so we as Christians need to be on guard and have a solid foundation. I mean, thank God, Alisa, you were able to come back and build that foundation from the ground up that is so necessary to protect yourself from these, um, deconstruction evangelists.
Jim: Like you were constructing.
Alisa: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, that’s what you’re describing.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You had questions about your faith, you were challenged into your faith-
Alisa: Yeah.
Jim: … and you went to find truth-
Alisa: Well and-
Jim: … and construct your faith.
Alisa: Yes. And you know, I think when I really look back on it, even though my doubt was primarily intellectual, what really kept me going, and I don’t quite know how to word this, but it was the faith of my parents.
Jim: Ah, that’s amazing.
Alisa: I knew, I knew that what my parents had was real. I knew that all those times we prayed together as a family and studied the Bible as a family.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: I knew they had something real. I knew they weren’t perfect, but they modeled repentance. They modeled what it’s like to love other people, to love God with your whole heart, with everything. And I wasn’t willing to let go of that so easily. So to answer your question of the why, I truly believe that so many people, ’cause there are a lot of people that have these very similar crises that remain Christians.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: I truly believe that what we’re seeing happen with a lot of people who deconstruct and get rid of these beliefs is they’ve never really tasted that the Lord is good, as it says in 1 Peter.
Jim: Wow.
Alisa: They haven’t tasted the beauty of the Christian worldview. And so when… I, I mean, I understand what it would feel like to cast off moral restraint and do what you want. There’s a certain sense of freedom from that, that sort of thing that people are celebrating in that hashtag. But I truly believe the reason they’re so evangelistic is because they haven’t tasted that the Lord is good. And they truly, deeply believe that Christianity is abusive and oppressive.
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: And they’ve bought into that narrative, and they wanna free other people just like they perceive themselves to be free.
Jim: Mm-hmm. You know, what you’re saying reminds me of a conversation we had with John Lennox, the former, I think Chair of Mathematics at Oxford. He’s a jolly Christian soul.
Alisa: He’s so great (laughs).
Jim: He is. And he, he debates the atheist and all that.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But he said to me, “You know, my practice is to ask people where they get their joy.” And he said, “It usually, if you’re not a believer, if you’re not a Christian in the full sense of the word, people don’t know how to answer that question.”
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And they’ll say to him, “Why are you so joyful? You’re a mathematician. You should be doer and all that.” And he said, I’ll just ask him, “Where do you get your joy?”
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that happened when he was like 19, you know, he was at Oxford, undergrad and, uh, a Nobel Prize winner. Uh, he was having dinner with him and seven other professors, and they got him up in a room and said, “You’ve gotta denounce your faith, ’cause it’s gonna limit your ability to understand mathematics.” Imagine that.
Alisa: Wow.
Jim: Your faith in God will limit your understanding of mathematics. Uh, hello, who created mathematics, right?
Alisa: Right.
Jim: Why does the universe work?
Tim: Amen.
Jim: And he said, which it was such boldness as a 19-year-old, he said to those men, “where do you get your joy?”
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And they couldn’t answer his question.
Alisa: Yeah.
Jim: And basically he said, “I’ll keep my faith in Christ, and you can keep your faith in Darwin.”
Alisa: Mm.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: And what a powerful statement. And that’s kind of-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: … what you’re saying.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s not a matter of if, but when tragedy-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tim: … um, suffering, pain, trauma, abuse, all these things that can cause people to go into deconstruction. Those things are gonna come. Um, but those of us who have found joy in Jesus, who have found that Jesus is good, they can cry out like the psalmist did, Psalm 13, right? “David, how long, oh Lord, will you forget me forever?” But then he, at the end of that psalm, he says, “I’m gonna praise the Lord because you are good.” And so I know I’m experiencing this stuff right now in the moment, but there’s something that I cannot deny because I’ve experienced it.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tim: Um, and that experiences that the Lord is good. And I, I think that this is a, a powerful thing that, um, we’re praying that these people who are going through deconstruction would find that the Lord is, taste and see that the Lord is good.
Jim: Well, that’s our goal, and that’s why we wanted to have you on. And Tim and Alisa, this has been a great opener, and I’m looking forward to our, uh, day tomorrow to talk more about this and get into the nitty-gritty. Maybe we can talk about what people are believing-
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and how we can help them, uh, rethink what they’re believing. So thank you for being with us.
Tim: Our pleasure.
Jim: You did great. And I, you know, there are programs that come along, John, that you’re going, everybody should get this and read it.
John: Right.
Jim: Because it’s so, such a good supplement to the scripture. And in this culture, we need this kind of training, we need to have the ability to express what we believe, especially with the onslaught of social media. So get ahold of us, uh, John will give those details in a minute. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you, the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Monthly, uh, a one-time gift is great. If you can’t afford it. We’re a Christian ministry, and if you want this and need this, we’ll get it into your hands for free. Just call us.
John: Yeah. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Of course, we have all the details for you at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And on behalf of the team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We’ll have Tim and Alisa back tomorrow, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Tim Barnett: And so what we wanna encourage those out there who may be in a situation that feels impossible, feels hopeless, just be encouraged that we serve a God who raised Jesus from the dead.
John Fuller: Welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Today, Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett are back with us again. And, uh, we’re looking forward to hearing more of their insights about how we as Christians can understand and respond to the deconstruction movement. Your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: You know, John, the why, uh, we are covering this kind of content is because we have a heart for the culture, we have a heart for evangelism and discipleship. Those are two core strategy efforts here at Focus, along with marriage, parenting and helping children in foster care and in the womb, et cetera, helping that mom make that decision for life.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: All of this is connected into a Christian worldview. I mean, you marry from a biblical standpoint, hopefully you parent from a biblical standpoint. And today we want to reinforce those things that are truth right outta scripture that we cannot jettison. And if folks, uh, didn’t hear the program last time, uh, go back and listen because we talked about a movement that is occurring within our culture to deconstruct faith.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And some of it’s coming right from the pulpit, and we have got to be better acquainted with those methodologies-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So that we can, one, live it, live our faith out better. And then be able to parent our teens, our twenty-somethings in a way that helps them to overcome this deconstruction movement.
John: Mm-hmm. And as I mentioned, we have Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett with us again. And, uh, they are both parents and apologists and defenders of the faith, and they engage in those social media channels-
Jim: Yeah.
John: About this. They’ve written a terrific resource, it’s a book called, The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why It’s Destructive, and How To Respond. Uh, they were so winsome last time, Jim, I want to affirm what you said. Uh, check out that first episode and get a copy of the book from us here at the ministry. We’ve got details for you at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Welcome both of you back, this is good.
Alisa Childers: Thanks, looking forward to it.
Tim: Good to be back.
Jim: I’ve really enjoyed it. And, uh, you know, you could probably tell I get a little inspired interacting with someone who’s really studied this. And it’s so relevant and that’s why the folks listening and viewing on YouTube, I just want them to dig in. Because it’s so critical that we, as the Christian community, uh, one, stay on the bedrock of truth, don’t get moved off that place.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Because it … it’s like that, that portrait of the wolf when the, the one eye looking around the tree. This is exactly where the enemy of our soul wants to get us.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: In big time doubt, not believing in the scripture, questioning it. And maybe that’s the place to kick this off. Questions are okay.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, you have to ask yourself, okay, do I really believe this? But speak to that component of being okay to ask questions.
Tim: Yeah. We think, um, questions are great. In fact, as we travel-
Alisa: Important, yeah.
Tim: Around teaching and speaking, it’s important that we question what we believe we should know. Not just what we believe, but why we believe it. And, and parents out there, I wanna strongly encourage you to be, um, giving that why for your faith. Because if you can’t give a why for your faith, you’ll never be able to give a why not to your doubts.
Jim: Mm.
Tim: Um, I’ll just speak from experience. You know, growing up my parents kind of gave me my belief in God, like they gave me my birthday presents. You know, here you go. And I just accepted it.
Jim: Yeah.
Tim: Okay, God is real. When I was in university though, studying physics, secular university, and my friends who weren’t Christians started challenging me, I didn’t know what to say. Um, I needed, I needed that why. I needed to find the, the answers. And so it’s really important that there are gonna … they’re gonna be beliefs that our students are going to receive that are good and true from us. But there are also beliefs that we get from our parents if we think about it, that aren’t true. Like, for example, my mom told me that if I crack my knuckles, then I’ll get arthritis.
John: You get arthritis, yeah.
Jim: Had to go to that one.
Tim: Or if I like, if I swallow my gum, then it would stay in my stomach for how long?
Jim: Seven years.
Alisa: Seven years.
Tim: Why does everyone know that, right? Seven years. Well, that’s not true. It will come out with everything else. So we get some beliefs from our parents or from sources that are good and true. And some that aren’t good and true. And it’s really important as we mature, especially into adulthood, that we know how to adjudicate between those two things.
Jim: Yeah. You know, we have new viewers, new listeners, and they haven’t heard yesterday’s program.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So let me just ask for that redefinition-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: Of deconstruction of Christianity.
Alisa: Right, uh, oftentimes we think people are confusing deconstruction with doubt.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: So doubt is when you question what you believe, right? Deconstruction is actually a very specific method of reassessing your theological beliefs, but not requiring scripture as a standard. That’s how it’s manifesting in culture.
Jim: Yeah. That, uh, gimme a practical example so we can recognize it in our own practices. Or perhaps even in our own church where that might be going on. What, what does that sound like? What does it look like?
Alisa: Well, one, one example of what it can look like is in the context of questions, right? We, we were just talking about questions. One of the things we talk about in the book is that we really encourage pastors to have times of Q&A, question and answer. But here’s the problem, a lot of people in the deconstruction movement are not seeking answers for questions. They’re seeking exits for the faith. And that’s really where we have two different kinds of doubt. There’s doubt seeking truth, and then there’s doubt seeking justification for the unbelief that’s already there. And so you basically have honest questioning and dishonest questioning. So what can happen is if you do a Q&A and you do have an answer for a question, sometimes those answers are just not going to be acceptable-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: To the person who is already seeking justification to leave the faith.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: And that can put pastors in a tough position. And the other thing about the deconstruction movement is it, it sort of praises this idea of perpetual questioning. You don’t ask questions in that space in order to land on a concrete answer. In fact, there are videos where they’ll say, “Don’t land, don’t create new beliefs ’cause then you’ll just have to deconstruct those.”
Jim: Yeah.
Tim: Yeah.
Alisa: So it perpetuates agnosticism. And so when someone isn’t really asking honest questions, that’s a huge sign that deconstruction might be going on. Rather than saying, “Hey, I just … I, I heard this video, I really need to know, is my Bible reliable? Do we have an accurate copy? Where could I find some information on that?” Right? That’s an honest question.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: But you might have somebody say, “Well, I just can’t believe in a God who would do X, Y, or Z as I’ve read about it in my Bible.”
Tim: Yeah.
Alisa: Those are two very, very different things. One is more emotional, one is more very self-led, and the other is intellectual. We often find that emotional sort of questioning that doesn’t really want to find a concrete answer in the deconstruction movement.
Jim: I so appreciate that distinction ’cause it’s really important. I was just with one of our supporters, I was down in Texas, and he had said to me, he, you know, he graduated with a finance degree, Bowen. Hello Bowen, I’m sure you’re listening. Um, but he said he was in New York, he was a go-getter, he was gonna conquer the world. And kind of drifted away from the faith in pursuit of his career. But he started going Tim Keller’s church.
Tim: Ah.
Jim: And he said, “You know, the one thing that Tim Keller did that really hooked me, after the sermon, after church was over, he would say, I’ll be up front.”
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “If anybody has a question about what I’ve talked about today, come on down and just let’s ask questions and I’ll try to provide answers.” And he would be there for an hour, two, three hours.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And-
Alisa: We actually talk about that in our book, yeah.
Jim: Do you mention that in your book?
Tim: We mention that in the book.
Jim: So Bowen is one of those people that experienced that.
Tim: Wow.
Alisa: That’s great, yeah.
Jim: And what a great thing. If you’re a pastor, what a great thing to do on a Sunday.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, that is the workday for you-
Alisa: Yeah.
Jim: As a pastor. But to extend your church time and let people come and talk with you right in front.
Tim: Yeah. Well, if you think about it, when we go to church, you know, what happens? Well you arrive, you sing your three songs, you hear the sermon, pass the plate, do the announcements, and then they just the benediction dismiss you. There’s no usually overt time for Q&A. And that can give people the impression that questions aren’t welcome here. And so what I love of about what Tim Keller’s done and other pastors have done the same is let’s create a space, let’s create a time in the week where we’re gonna get together and just wrestle with the questions that people have.
Jim: Yeah.
Tim: And that allows people to see, you know what, maybe Christians aren’t afraid of questions. Maybe it’s okay for me to express my questions. ‘Cause the worst thing you can do is suppress your doubts. It turns out doubts not the problem, the best research we have says it’s the, it’s silence in the face of your doubts. That’s what’s a faith killer. It’s the students who were able to express their doubts, they actually had a more mature and strengthened faith.
Jim: Yeah. Well, I like that concept, you know, that God’s okay with an angry fist.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You related that to David, uh, last time-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: You talked about that. I think oftentimes that’s a, that’s a okay place to be-
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: When you’re angry, uh, grief of some sort, the loss of a loved one, a child.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, that’s the greatest grief anybody could experience.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And you have this emotional fist in the air saying, “Lord, why? Why did you let this happen?”
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I think God’s all in on that. Come on, let’s talk about it.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: And you may never get that answer. But God’s okay with the discussion.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: Yeah.
Jim: Um, and I so appreciated that last time. Um, let me move to that, I think parenting component of this, Tim, you share in the book about a- a- a young man named Adam.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: What does his story illustrate about the challenges our young people are facing today?
Tim: Well, this shows the pressure that many of our young people are under to, uh, capitulate and to maybe deconstruct their Christian beliefs. So, um, a friend of mine from church, he came to me and said, “My 13-year-old son, Adam, is really struggling with his faith. Do you mind going out for coffee with him? And maybe having a conversation?” So we went out for coffee after some small talk. He just got right to it, he said, “Tim, I lost all my friends at school.” And he started to recount what happened. Well, his best friend of five years came outta the closet, said that he’s gay, and he knew that Adam was a Christian, went to church. So he asked Adam, “What do you think of all this?” And Adam did his best, I mean, as any 14-year-old can to communicate the, the truth of the biblical view of sexuality with grace, truth, trying to balance that while this entire discussion took place over text messaging. Which is not the best place to have a conversation like this, but this is how a lot of our young people communicate. And, um, the young man who came outta the closet took screenshots of the entire conversation, shared it with their school, and now he’s being called homophobic.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tim: No one will talk to him. And he said, “Tim, I’ve been watching these TikTokers and they’re saying that actually this whole view of sexuality and gender that I learned at church, it’s a mistake. It’s wrong.” So he’d been listening to some of the deconstructions. He said, “If I believe them, I might get my friends back.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John: Mm-hmm.
Tim: So we ended up walking through some of those videos, I gave some responses to those. So he needed answers, that was part of it. But the second thing we talked about was, you know, Adam, you have to make a decision here. There’s gonna be times where you’re gonna be at the crossroads where you can either be faithful to God or you can be faithful to the world. You can follow the world and where they’re going, or you can follow God. And praise the Lord, Adam, um, a couple years later, faith strengthened and actually was baptized. I got to watch him get baptized. So just an amazing story there where Adam was a good candidate for deconstruction. He was right there. He could have, um, easily been taken in by all these influencers, these deconstructionists. But instead, um, he remained faithful to God.
Jim: You know, Tim, the … and I love that story, but-
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Dad called you-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: And said, “Can you meet with my son?”
Alisa: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What about those-
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, thousands of families that don’t have that, Tim?
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: That dad or mom could call and say, “Hey, Tim, could you?” So I- I think the question is this, how- how do we, how do we augment that if we’re in a crisis with our teen-
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Which is kind of typical.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Um, and I want to put it together with this question because-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: You know, even for us it’s, well, scripture is good-
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s poetry, it’s metaphor, it’s all these things. But your teen and 20 something could say, “But do you really believe that it, it was totally inspired by God, that every word there is truth?”
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, you know, just maybe we start there and then-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: Talk about if you don’t have it, what you need. Other than the book, get a copy of the book.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: But we could also give your cell phone number.
Tim: Yeah. Well, let’s not do … well, I’ll- I’ll be honest. I’ll be honest, we get every event we go to, a parent will come up-
Jim: Yes.
Tim: And say, “I just, I wish my son or daughter was here to hear this. Or I wish you could sit down with them and have coffee.” And here’s the thing. In one sense, you can bring us into your home. Um, that’s … we talked about this last time with Red Pen Logic. I’m responding to some of those challenges that are out there. So you can literally play the deconstructionist and then hear my response-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tim: At the dinner table. At … here’s what we do with my girls. Um, so I got three girls, 13, 11, and 8. And I will come to the table and say, “Girls, let’s pretend like dad’s an atheist. Okay? He no longer believes in God.” So I’m kind of role-playing what a TikToker might do. You know, my girls aren’t on TikTok and they’re not on Instagram, they’re on social media. But I’m gonna kind of role-play. So how would you respond? Would you guys still be Christians if daddy wasn’t a Christian?
Alisa: Mm-hmm.
Tim: And it’s like, “Well.” And so they’re- they’re, you know they’re-
Jim: That’s good.
Tim: Okay, well, the Bible says God’s real, so God must be … okay. Well, what if daddy doesn’t believe the Bible? And you could see them like wrestling and, “Well, you know, a building needs a builder. So a creation needs a creator.” That’s what my daughter said, I was so proud of her, you know. And it’s like, here’s them, like really thinking through this for themselves at such a young age.
Jim: Mm.
Tim: And so that might be one approach that you could take.
Jim: And I think one of the key parenting techniques here that we need to understand as Christians, committed Christians is don’t act shocked or-
Tim: Yeah.
Alisa: That’s so good, yeah.
Jim: Don’t act with … react with emotion.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Like, how could you say that? That’s exactly what the other side, so to speak, is saying.
Alisa: That’s right.
Jim: So we need to absorb that. Boy, that’s a good question.
Alisa: Yeah. And I would love to add to that too, because I think a lot of parents listening to us might be thinking, but yeah, but you guys know all this stuff, you’ve studied this. I haven’t done that, I don’t know how to tell my kids these truths. Well, here’s the thing, you don’t have to be an apologist, you don’t have to be a scholar or professional philosopher. You just have to be curious enough to let your kids know that it’s a safe place for them to answer the question.
Tim: Yeah.
Alisa: So I always tell parents, the one thing you can do is ask your kids, what’s your biggest question about God?
Jim: Mm.
Alisa: And then prepare yourself that you’re not going to act shocked, you’re not gonna gasp, you’re gonna just take a deep breath and then compliment your child for having such an insightful question.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: And if you don’t know the answer, you’re gonna make them feel so good about themselves when you’re like, “Wow, I’ve never thought of that question.” And then be willing to go on that journey with them. And that promotes just an atmosphere of you learning together.
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: You don’t have to know everything to be able to start that conversation.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s so good to remember to say, “I don’t know.”
Alisa: Yeah.
Jim: “Let’s go investigate it.”
John: Some good stuff on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Our guests today are Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett. And they’ve written a terrific resource, we’ve mentioned it before. Get a copy of it from us, uh, here at Focus on the Family, The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why it’s Destructive, and How to Respond. Uh, call us 800-A-FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Alisa, let me ask you, uh, you know, just trying to think of the folks listening and what they’ve gone through. They might feel like they’ve got family members that they have not really talked effectively with.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And they feel guilty about that. You know, maybe a sibling, a mom and dad who have gone through this and they’re no longer claiming to be Christian, and they’ve become enlightened-
Alisa: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And all those things. They’re, uh, free from the toxic Christianity, as we have talked about. What can we do with that? I think Heather was an example that you used-
Alisa: Yeah.
Jim: In the book. Describe that situation with Heather.
Alisa: Yeah. So, Heather’s not her real name-
Jim: Right.
Alisa: I just wanna say, uh, for people listening. But Heather was, uh, a woman that I was friends with that we went to church together. We had a very similar experience of spiritual abuse in this church. And, um, this was even after all my faith crisis and all of that. But Heather began to deconstruct and she started to ask me questions. And this was after I had been studying apologetics. And she asked me questions about biblical reliability, and she kept asking the same question, I would give her resources, I would give her my best answer. And then she would just sort of reword the question and keep asking it. So finally it occurred to me, I don’t think she likes the answer. That- that was kind of the thing that- that came to me. And then I finally asked her, “What’s underneath this question?” And she said, “Well, if this pastor that was abusive used scripture to, you know, abuse us. How do I know that the men who wrote the New Testament didn’t just write it to oppress women? And to make people kind of come into the fold like that?” And I- I thought that was really getting to the heart of her question, and I did my best to answer her questions. But I do remember going to dinner once, and I tell this story in the book. Where she was crying a lot, it was very emotional experience. And so she was bringing up all of these claims about the Bible and about Christianity. And I just felt in that moment that it wasn’t the right time to correct her and bring out my best apologetics ’cause I would … I wanted to cry with those who cry, she was in a lot of pain. But what happened is when we walked back out to the car, she kind of blurted out, “Well, if you would’ve had any answers, I’d have taken them.”
Jim: Mm.
Alisa: And I just, my heart sank because I thought, here I am an apologist and I couldn’t even give her answers for her questions. And it really bothered me for a long time after that. But after I really thought about it, I thought, “You know, her deconstruction is not on me. I- I made the best wise decision I could in that moment to not overwhelm her with counters to everything she was saying, because she was in a lot of pain.” And ultimately, I think that’s the one thing that I would say to people, if you have a loved one in deconstruction, I’m sure there are parents who are watching us who have responded in shock and fear. And now they’re feeling very guilty and they’re like, what do I do? But even so, your loved one’s deconstruction is not on you.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Alisa: You are not that powerful, you are not the Holy Spirit. You can do what you can-
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: To influence them for good. But the best thing you can do if you’ve had, uh, an outburst or something like that, is just go back and repent to them. Tell them you were wrong, model what Christian humility looks like in that context.
Jim: It’s kind of proof in the pudding, right?
Alisa: It is. Right.
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: And- and, you know, that doesn’t guarantee any outcome. But I think that the most important thing we can do is do what we can, live the beauty of the gospel-
Jim: Yeah.
Alisa: In front of them. That’s what my parents did for me, that’s what got me through so many dark moments, was knowing what they had was real. And- and I think that’s probably a good first step.
Jim: And in the end, that’s really what kept you tethered-
Alisa: That’s right.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: To the faith. Even though you’re on a thin rope, if you wanna use that-
Alisa: That’s right.
Jim: Imagination. Tim, you speak about staying with Saturday or-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: You know.
Tim: Living in Saturday.
Jim: Living in Saturday. Speak to that ’cause I think it’s really-
Tim: Sure.
Jim: Apropos right here.
Tim: Well, I was actually preparing a sermon and called Alisa and said, “Look, I wanna end with some hope. You know, there’s a lot of stuff we’ve covered in these interviews, and man, it can seem like this is overwhelming. It seems hopeless.” And we started to- to brainstorm, we thought, “Let’s talk about the Resurrection Sunday. There’s a lot of hope there.” Well, if you think about Easter weekend, on Friday night, right, Jesus is abandoned by all of His followers, right? Um, and that- that Friday night you have, you have Peter. And he’s now denied the Lord three times. Of course, that’s … we all know Friday, but Sunday. Well, Sunday brought Resurrection hope. Again, we read in the Gospels that the angel says, “Go and tell the disciples and Peter. Like, Peter really needs to hear this.” Right?
Jim: Especially Peter.
Tim: He’s going through something.
Jim: Yeah.
Tim: What happens on this Saturday? You know, we’re just not told. Um, so we can only speculate, but we can imagine like, what was going through Peter’s mind? Did he have like unanswered questions?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tim: Probably. Did he start to question some of Jesus teachings and maybe his identity? Like after all the Messiah wasn’t supposed to die on a cross, was He? Did he start to question some of the miracles that he saw? Maybe tried to explain them with some naturalistic, we just don’t know.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tim: He was living in a Saturday. Well, we do know one thing, and that is that the day after Saturday came Sunday. And with it brought this hope. And Peter, his- his faith was restored, it was strengthened. And I think there’s a whole lot of people out there who have loved ones who are living in a Saturday. And it’s not just 24 hours. Like their Saturday might be months-
Alisa: Years.
Tim: It may be years.
Alisa: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
Tim: And what we can take from this account is, look, if it can happen for Peter, if he can have that Sunday experience. Then maybe it can happen for our loved ones too. And so we wanna encourage those out there who may be in a situation that feels impossible, feels hopeless. Just be encouraged that we serve a God who raised Jesus from the dead.
Alisa: Mm-hmm.
Tim: And as a result has spurred on, look at, I mean, Peter’s faith. We read about his words and the Bible. I mean, there’s something that- that God was able to do with Peter’s life, even though he denied the Lord-
Jim: Yeah.
Tim: Three times and went through this process, maybe you could even describe it as a deconstruction. And so, um, I think there’s hope for our loved ones too.
Jim: Your grandfather-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: Um, right to the end-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: Describe that story.
Tim: Yeah. And this, and this is a … just a classic example here, where on March 1st, 2018, I got a phone call I’ll never forget. My mom says, “Your- your grandpa’s kidneys are not working properly and we don’t know how much time he’s got left.” So we grabbed our kids, picked ’em up from school, and we took them straight to the hospital. Got there, uh, went up the elevator, I still remember. And there’s like 30 of my family members in the, in the lobby there, in the hallway. And I’m thinking, “Why aren’t they in the room?” Well we started asking questions and they were actually doing some tests on my grandpa, said it would be like two hours. So, because it was so close to dinner at this point, we ended up taking my girls home. I was flying out the next morning to go speak at an event in Dallas. And so I had to see my grandpa. I didn’t know if this would be the last time. So I got in the car, went back to the hospital. And uh, when I got back, went up the elevator, okay, there’s nobody … my family’s gone. Okay, maybe they’re in the room. So we go talk to the nurse. The nurse says, “Actually, one of the tests we discovered that your grandpa has tuberculosis and no one’s allowed to go in and see him. Your family all went for dinner.” I wasn’t gonna take that answer from them. I said, “I’m going to talk to my grandpa.” And so they said, “Well, here’s what we can do. We’ll put a hazmat suit on you, essentially.” This is before COVID, this is like mask, the whole gown, everything, went in there. And this, just to back up, was an answer to prayer. Because that morning when I hung up the phone, I prayed, “God, give me one last opportunity to share the gospel with my grandpa.” And I knew that wasn’t gonna be easy ’cause I knew my family would all be there. Most of them on that side of the family are not believers.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tim: So here’s, you know, Tim, he’s gonna get up and he’s … in front of everyone, he’s gonna preach the gospel. And, uh … and sure enough, there I am in a room with just my grandpa, actually my sister was with me, I picked her up as well, just the three of us. And because of this tuberculosis thing, they weren’t letting anyone else in. So for an hour and a half, we shared some memories. And then I said, “Grandpa, where are you gonna spend eternity?” And we walked through, and here’s a man who was hard against the gospel his whole life. He wanted nothing to do with Jesus. In fact, it was like, that’s why we didn’t, we didn’t bring it up anymore. We thought this was a hopeless situation.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tim: It just wasn’t gonna happen for him. Well, I present the gospel and grandpa’s like, “I want that. I want that.” You’d be surprised, a man who knows he has few days left, is willing to take a lifeline. And he wanted to receive Christ for the forgiveness of his sins. And, uh, we were rejoicing, in fact, I didn’t even believe it when it happened. And so I was like … I’m like, “Did he really understand what I was getting at?” Okay, maybe if I … so as I’m praying for him, I’m like reiterating all the stuff I had already said ’cause I’m like, do you … it’s not supposed to be this easy. You’re supposed to have challenges. That’s what we’re used to as apologists. Well, we left that room rejoicing. And that next morning I was on a plane, um, heading for Dallas. Actually, before it took off, I got a text from my mom and said, your grandpa passed away in the night. Um, and so praise the Lord. Uh, the takeaway of this story is that God is able to work in what seems like impossible situations. That’s where He does His best work.
Jim: Yeah.
Tim: And your situation may seem hopeless, this one certainly seemed hopeless to us. And in his final hours before meeting Jesus, he received Christ. Just amazing.
Jim: Wow. I mean, that’s- that’s the place to end.
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, we’re so appreciative. I mean, that’s a great story about doing what you can do. And the last two days we’ve talked about being prepared-
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: To be in conversations to help address these questions-
Tim: Yeah.
Jim: For your family, for your children, for those around you. This is the Christian witness, right?
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: This is a part of it. So don’t be lazy and, uh, understand what it is that’s going on in the culture so you can address these issues to the best of your ability.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And then, you know, contact us. Let us help you be equipped for that discussion. This book is a great place to start, The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why it’s Destructive, and How To Respond. Um, like I said yesterday, I don’t know why you wouldn’t want this book. And if you can just get ahold of us, make a gift of any amount, if you could do that monthly, that’s great. Be in ministry with us. Man, we are, we are making a difference in the culture, help us to do that. In addition to that, get a great resource from us and, uh, John will give you the details on how to do that.
John: Yeah. Donate today when you call 800-232-6459, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or stop by our website, we’ve got all the details right there, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Alisa and Tim, thanks again for being with us. Thank you for writing the book and all the effort it took to do that, and all the great experiences that God has given you. It’s just, it’s refreshing to have this discussion with you. Thanks.
Alisa: Oh, thank you.
Tim: Yeah. Thanks for having us.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John: Well, what a great conversation we had. And plan to join us tomorrow as we’ll hear the story of a marriage that was saved through our Hope Restored Marriage Intensives.
Melody Westbrook: So, as I realized, I- I thought I was starting a battle into one thing. Um, I realized I was in a battle, we were in a battle to save, to save our marriage.
John: On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
