Jim Daly: Greg, the marriage team here at Focus on the Family reports that 93% of Americans say having a happy marriage is one of their most important objectives in life. 93%. That’s a big number, but a significant percentage of marriages, they will end in divorce. And about half of all divorces will occur within the first seven years of marriage. Why?
Dr. Greg Smalley: You know, Jesus really gave the answer 2000 years ago. Let me listen to what He said. So He, He’s giving us the why.
Jim: Okay?
Greg: He says that, “Moses permitted you to divorce because of the hardness of your hearts, but that wasn’t the way in the beginning.” In other words, what He’s saying there is that when we get married, our hearts aren’t hardened to each other, we’re open, we’re alive. And yet, there are some things that happen along the way that if couples really understood what can happen, that that creates ultimately a hardened heart. If they understood what this is, I’ll tell you, people wouldn’t have to divorce.
John Fuller: Well, if that’s piqued your curiosity, stay with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We have a lot more practical, godly advice for couples, especially younger couples, about how to prepare for a strong, healthy, long-lasting marriage. I’m John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.
Jim: John, we do wanna celebrate marriage. That’s a good thing. As Proverbs 18:22 says, “He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the Lord.” And as husbands and wives, uh, we’re thankful for this wonderful gift God has given us. Of course, not everyone will get married, singleness may be God’s plan for your life, and we get that. But the majority of us will get married. And I know as a, you know, an older parent with kids in their 20s, we’re certainly praying for Trent and Troy. I’m sure you’re doing that for your kids.
John: We are, yeah.
Jim: About the spouse they’re going to meet. It’s kind of weird, Jean and I think, they’re out there, those two women are out there somewhere.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: That the boys most likely, not, as I said, not everybody’s gonna get married, but we pray for that connection.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That they meet godly women and, and they do their part as godly men. Uh, but today we really want to aim at the young men and women, uh, and provide them the tools that they’re gonna need to be successful in their lifelong relationship. Now, here’s the little secret. All these tools are available to us that have been married for a while.
John: Yes.
Jim: We need to apply the same set of tools to keep our marriages going strong.
John: Yeah. I, I go back to our early days. We had conflict and we didn’t have any idea, Jim, how to get out of it. I mean, we just, Dena and I both had willing hearts, but we, we just were in patterns for a long, long time and we finally got unstuck. But I know there are a lot of people listening who are in those longer term marriages. It’s important that we solve these things now and model it for our kids as young adults so they aspire to have a good, strong marriage like mom and dad.
Jim: Yeah. It’s so true. Uh, if your marriage is in trouble, I want to urge you to contact us right away, because we have so many resources to help you from the simple tune-up, things to think about, the great authors that we have on the broadcast giving little insights on things to do to improve your marriage. All the way down to the, the overhaul, Hope Restored, which is a four-day, generally a four-day intensive for couples. The great news with Hope Restored is that those couples that come, many of them have divorce papers in hand, but after two years, we go back and interview and survey those couples, and 80% of those couples are still married and doing better.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So that’s a good thing. So don’t withhold, don’t be embarrassed. Uh, this is something we want to do together to build the kingdom.
John: Yeah. Now, uh, not too long ago, we recorded a conversation with Dr. Greg Smalley and his wife Erin about a really wonderful book they’ve written called Ready to Wed: 12 Ways to Start a Marriage You’ll Love. And we heard from Greg in that opening clip. Uh, get to know the Smalley’s better and the resources we have in that book in particular, Ready to Wed, when you stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Alright Jim, here’s how you began the conversation with Greg and Erin Smalley on today’s episode of Focus on the Family.
Jim: Uh, let me say to both of you, welcome back to the microphones.
Greg: It’s always good to be here. Thank you.
Erin Smalley: Yep. Thanks for having us.
Jim: You know, um, I was talking to a theologian just the other day and he said something to me that really grabbed my attention. He said, “If you think about it, Satan hates marriage. He hates what God created because it, it was to reflect His image.” And that he hates God for doing it because He chose to manifest His divine nature in human beings through male and female, rather than through him and the angels.
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that’s what set him off. That was the rivalry that went forward. I’ve never heard it expressed that way, but it shows you why marriage is up against the ropes. Satan hates it, doesn’t he? Because it reflects the very image of God in humanity.
Erin: And I think too, Satan knows the power of a marriage. I mean, it’s two individuals becoming one. And if they’re serving God and His Holy Spirit as part of that, that, I mean, that’s a powerful force. And the enemy knows what we are capable of when we are in healthy sustaining marriages, that he’s afraid of that.
Jim: Let’s talk about the idea of the soulmate. Uh, so many websites talk about, you know, do this test and, you know, that probably has a, a positive aspect to it. But is there really only one person in this world for me?
Greg: No. Not that, there’s no biblical evidence to support that God is a matchmaker. Of course, He has a will. I wanna understand that, I want to be plugged in, connected, really walking in step with Him as I’m making decisions. But the hallmark of humanity is He’s given us a free will. Why would He then reverse that and say, “Although I’ve, I’ve formed you with a free will to choose Me or not, but I’m gonna choose your spouse for you.” There is no biblical evidence to support that.
Jim: Yeah. Some people are going, “Oh, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. My husband and I, we feel like we were meant for each other.” Just address them. I mean, that’s a good thing. You want to be in love that way. But the idea that if you took a test and you came up as compatible, somehow that’s the only way it can happen.
Greg: I, I think the problem is this, if I subscribe to this idea that Erin is my quote unquote “soulmate,” in other words, God chose her from the very beginning of time to just be for me and it was, we had to figure that out and, and find one another. The problem is, what happens then when we encounter problems, when we encounter difficulties that, that will happen? If my belief is, whoa, God ordained this, we shouldn’t have problems. What’s wrong? What’s wrong with you? Oh my goodness. Maybe, maybe I missed it. Maybe I misunderstood. Maybe she’s really not my soulmate. See, the problem is if I believe that it was all God’s doing, that I can just kind of sit back and either God’s gonna take care of it so I don’t really have to do much. Or if there’s problems, then I’ll say, “Ooh, I I missed it somehow.”
Jim: Yeah. That’s really interesting. I, the way I, I would like to say it is that, uh, soulmates are developed or created. And, um, that one person out there, it, it’s not gonna happen just by accident. You invest in each other and you, you talk about, look, think of this. You talk about arranged marriages, which happens still in the Middle East.
Greg: Absolutely.
Jim: Happens in Africa. And I’ve talked to those, uh, couples as I’ve traveled. The divorce rate in those couples is very low, ironically. Because, and I asked, uh, a few of those couples, I said, “Why is that?” And they said, “Well, we learn to love each other.”
Greg: Hmm.
Erin: Hmm.
Jim: Isn’t that interesting? They have an appetite to learn how to love each other. That’s really a soulmate approach, isn’t it? You learn to love another person.
Erin: Mm-hmm. And you get plenty of opportunity in marriage to learn to love the other person through the good times, the difficult times. You know, the joys, the challenges, and it’s a decision and it’s a commitment. You think about in marriage, Christ does many things in us as individuals through this relationship, that we actually get the opportunity, as all of us who are married know, to learn more about who we are and who Christ is in us, and that we have the opportunity to grow to look more like Him through the challenges, because those challenges are there.
Jim: Yeah. And hindsight are looking at it from God’s perspective, I’m sure that’s the formula for Him. He brings two people together, He hopefully gets them to commit to each other, then you begin to work on those very selfish things that is, you know, intrinsic in human behavior. In fact, there’s a difference between, and you make that distinction between selfish and selfless love. And I really appreciate this because I think it’s the reason God has set marriage up the way He has. Because you have to learn to give unconditionally to the other person.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that is really hard for us as human beings. It cuts against our nature.
Erin: It sure does. And, you know, and so many times couples will say, “We’re getting married because we wanna be loved, we wanna find that one fulfilling relationship.” And therefore they’re looking at it is what they’re gonna get from this relationship versus what they’re gonna give. And you think about how Christ loves us, He gives us love. Therefore, in His model, we should be looking and learning. How do we selflessly love this person who’s not perfect, who’s not gonna always meet our needs, is not always gonna know what we’re thinking, you know, but it’s-
Greg: I’m doing my best.
Jim: But these are triggers too, aren’t they? I mean, those things that irritate you, there’s reasons those things irritate you.
Erin: Absolutely. And we all bring them right into this marriage relationship, especially early on we become very aware of this.
Jim: Let’s talks talk for a minute because of the, uh, perfect one, the soulmate concept again. Uh, this idea of infatuation. I mean, when you meet, there is a certain level of infatuation you’re attracted to your-
Greg: Erin thought I was such a hottie. It’s embarrassing to say that.
Erin: And that changed?
Jim: You know, I’m not gonna speak on behalf of Erin.
Greg: Oh.
Jim: But the point is, is something draws you together. It usually is physical at first you, you’re seeing somebody that you’re attracted to, and then hopefully it will develop into, uh, emotional intimacy, that kind of thing. And then in the right, uh, course of time with marriage, physical intimacy and, and the great love story that God has for you. But in that context, it has to start somewhere. Are we stunting our growth, uh, as human beings when we get stuck in the infatuation phase? And is that why marriages stall out? Because you know what, after a couple years, I don’t really, I’m not infatuated with you anymore in your baggy socks and your dirty underwear.
Greg: Why are you looking at me?
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: Did Erin say that?
Jim: She told me.
Greg: It’s so true. If that is the basis of our relationship, this infatuation, that’s great. And we need, see, we need the feeling part, we need the passion, we need the infatuation. That’s all good.
Jim: So God put it there for a purpose.
Greg: Absolutely.
Jim: To draw you together.
Greg: Uh, read Song of Solomon.
Jim: Yeah.
Erin: Hmm.
Greg: I mean that’s, the whole book is just you, you get that feeling like, wow, that’s what I want. But at some point it has to move to this decision that I’m making, that this is the person I wanna spend my life with. I’ll never forget John Trent, Dr. John Trent, who wrote a lot of books with my father, Gary Smalley. John was a mentor of mine. So when I was dating Erin and I really was thinking, wow, this, I think she’s the one that I want to marry. I came to him and I just said, “John, how, how do you know? Like, how did you know Cindy was the one you wanted to marry?” I’ll never forget what he said to me. He goes, “Greg, he goes, here’s the bottom line. He goes, there are a lot of girls out there that you could marry and you could have an amazing life with. It’s the way God designed it. We can relate, and there’s lots of women out there that you could build a great life with. The question is, when you think about Erin, does it cause you tremendous pain to imagine a life lived without her?”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And that was the moment for me that I really sat there and went, you know what that is? I love her and I wanna spend a lifetime with her. And that’s my choice. And I think it, that’s the beauty. Hey, in 1 Corinthians, Paul is saying to a widow, once she becomes a widow, she’s free to choose whomever she wants to marry.
Jim: That’s good evidence for that then. Uh, let me ask you this. You said something that caught my attention. You said that living together, cohabiting has become the new engagement.
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Speak to that. Why is it happening? Why is living together or having physical relationship before marriage becoming much more common, even in the church?
Greg: Yes. It is becoming more and more accepted the more we hear about it and people talk about it. Um, I think the big reason is kids are afraid. These first-time, never-been-married kids are afraid. Maybe they saw their parents not make it. They see divorce rates, they hear all this stuff, negative stuff about marriage. And so I think in their mind, let’s try this out.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Without judging that, here’s what I would say to a couple doing that, thinking about doing that is that first and foremost, think about the message that you were sending to your relationship by making that choice. What you’re saying is that I’m really not willing to go all in with you at this point. I kind of wanna try this out. I think what you’re doing is that you’re infusing doubt into the very DNA of your relationship.
Jim: Right from the beginning.
Greg: And that’s not a good thing.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Erin: Well, you think about when you’re making your wedding vows, this goes back to what we were talking about just previously, is that there’s a commitment made in front of the Lord, in front of your family, and you’re saying, “I’m in this for a lifetime.” When you’re cohabitating, you’re bypassing that. So it is sending this message that I don’t know that you might be the one or you might not be. So often we don’t talk about that. That commitment’s a big deal. We’re laying the foundation of our relationship on a lifetime commitment.
John: That lifetime commitment being talked about there in marriage is certainly the goal that we want to aim for at today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller. We’re listening to a conversation recorded with Greg and Erin Smalley a little while ago about their book, Ready to Wed: 12 Ways to Start a Marriage You’ll Love. And you can get a copy of that book when you call 800-232-6459. 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to learn more. And Jim, uh, this matter of cohabitation, so many single adults, even in the church, are really taking that route. They live together. Uh, that can be a pain point for a caring parent.
Jim: It’s heartbreaking, and it’s certainly not God’s plan for a lifelong marriage. As parents, we know a decision like that, cohabitation, is dangerous and will likely not end well. It also hurts when our children turn away from, you know, the Godly teaching we’ve given them, we’ve raised them with, uh, growing up. And the temptation is to condemn that adult child or cut them off relationally. Uh, but here’s the thing. Uh, a recent broadcast, we covered this, Dr. Gary Chapman shared this on that program, that you can’t control your adult child’s choices, uh, they’re adults, but you can still influence them. And you need to have a positive impact by living out your godly marriage in front of them each and every day. And that allows that connection to occur, and it doesn’t come across as overbearing. Gary recommends parents keep the lines of communication open even when you don’t agree with your adult child’s decisions. And I think that is extremely wise advice.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would agree, Jim. And we’re gonna link over to that conversation with Gary Chapman, uh, on the website. Well, this reminder Focus is here, if you need any help in these, uh, family relationships, especially marriage, we can connect you with one of our Caring Christian counselors. When you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Uh, or stop by our website where we’ve got the link and the details. We’re at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Well here now more from our conversation with Greg and Erin Smalley on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: Erin, let me push you a bit on what you just said, because I think it’s important. Um, and you can come and defend her there, Greg. (laughter) But when you look at-
Erin: It’s helpful.
Greg: You’re very strong, so I don’t know what I could do.
Jim: Yeah. Um, when you look at social critics, uh, they’ll claim that marriage is outdated, it’s a human institution. Which, you know, all of us don’t believe I’m playing the opposite position here. And so they’ll say that it’s all a construct of humanity. I mean, for kids to be able to live together and try it out. Uh, talk to me as if I’m the one you’re trying to convince as to why these aren’t social constructs, it’s not a human invention. It’s how we honor God.
Erin: Mm-hmm. You know, you look at scripture and it says, “God made marriage, not man.” But then this is what I would say to them. Why then does the research show whether it’s, you know, from a Christian perspective or non-Christian perspective, that really couples who cohabitate have a much higher rate of divorce?
Jim: That’s a very good point.
Erin: You know, it, it’s not based on a biblical construct. It’s just straight research.
Jim: And why is that? Why is there a higher rate of divorce in cohabiting couples than couples that save themselves for marriage?
Greg: You, you are infusing doubt into your relationship. I think it also sends a message that we are willing to make major compromises for some short-term gain, and that that’ll ultimately hurt your… That’s a pattern formation. In other words, what happens when you encounter other choices that you have to make? If you’ve been willing to compromise here, you might be more willing to compromise around some finances in your marriage, infidelity in your marriage.
Jim: Why is that so devalued today? I mean, Jean and I, that was our courtship. I mean, I remember our first date, I shook her hand. I think she thought I was weird, but I really wanted to make a commitment to the Lord that I was gonna do this well. And, uh, you know, I think eventually two, three weeks later, after four dates, I think I kissed her on the cheek. And then we were writing each other notes about could you be the one, you know, it kind of went the right way.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Now, by God’s grace. Um, but I am, uh, I guess saddened that so many young couples today don’t see the value, the gift that you’re bringing into that relationship. Even if you were, uh, sexually active before, to recommit your path to the Lord and to say, “I wanna do this part right. Lord, help me to do that.” Why is that devaluing occurring?
Greg: Sitting here listening to you, one thought that hits me is that, I don’t think that couples in our day and age have a different answer to, how then do we prepare for marriage? I mean, very few couples end up getting good, quality premarital counseling.
Jim: Mm.
Greg: So if very few are doing that, I want to prepare, I want to stay married for a lifetime. But now in our culture, the only way to do that is to live together. I think that’s a part of what we’re trying to shift, is to say, actually there is another way that one maintains the integrity of your relationship, maintains the commitment part of your marriage. You don’t have to make these kinds of compromise, and you can be fully prepared. 80% of couples who get quality premarital training stay together.
Jim: Hmm. Wow.
Greg: There’s another way.
Jim: Yeah, there is. And we want to come back next time because we don’t have time to go through that list right now. But talk about premarital counseling, talk about the actual kind of practical tools that we can provide, uh, young people to begin to prepare for their marriages, and to, uh, prepare very, uh, wholeheartedly for their marriage once they’re engaged. Uh, let’s come back next time and talk about your 12 ways, uh, to have a great marriage, uh, to whet the appetite, leaving and cleaving, lifelong commitment, honoring each other, spiritual intimacy, once you’re married, physical intimacy, positive communication. Let’s touch on those next time and, uh, put tools in the hands of folks to use them. Can we do that?
Greg: Absolutely.
Jim: Alright.
Erin: Yes, that’d be great.
John: Well, what an encouraging conversation with Greg and Erin Smalley on today’s episode of Focus on the Family. And we look forward to hearing more of their Bible-based advice and encouragement next time.
Jim: John, we originally aired this broadcast with the Smalleys a few years ago, and I thought it would be a great idea to invite Greg back into the studio, uh, really for a quick update about the Ready to Wed resources. Uh, Greg, it’s always good to have you with us.
Greg: Thank you for having me.
Jim: So for those who don’t know, Ready to Wed is more than just a book. There’s a video curriculum, I mean, it’s quite substantial what you’ve pulled together here. Uh, tell us a bit more about it.
Greg: Yeah. One of the most encouraging marriage statistics that I’ve ever heard is that for couples who get 8 to 10 hours of premarital education, 80% of those couples stay together for a lifetime.
Jim: Why do you think that is? I mean, what’s the secret sauce there?
Greg: Because instead of thinking just about the wedding day, they’ve put a lot of time and thought into going, we need to make sure that we’re walking into our marriage well-prepared.
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: So within the, the video curriculum, which by the way gives you that 10 hours of education. But what we did is that we utilize not just experts, but a bunch of couples who were newly married.
Jim: So the real deal.
Greg: The real deal, asking them, “Okay, now that you’re married, what would you do differently? What stands out? What do you wish you would’ve prepared?” So they’re giving these engaged couples some amazing advice.
Jim: So it’s real stuff. I mean, you’re hearing from young couples, just married who are giving their insights in a candid way. Who are some of the experts that you use to film this?
Greg: Yeah, we have an all-star lineup. We have Dr. Tony Evans, uh, Pastor Sammy Rodriguez. We’ve got Ted Cunningham.
Jim: Oh, they’re all good.
Greg: … the funniest people we’re ever gonna hear. And then our own Dr. Bob Paul, who heads up our marriage intensive program. So he’s coming from the standpoint of going, “Okay, here’s why couples 10, 15, 20 years later end up in our Hope Restored, our marriage intensive program. So here’s what you can do differently.”
Jim: Yeah. Greg, this has to be, from what I’ve seen out there, one of the best, if not the best resource for people thinking about marriage. Is that a fair statement?
Greg: Absolutely. Because not only have we gotten good feedback from couples who have used it, but my own daughter, she and her now husband, went through that with a mentor couple.
Jim: I was gonna say, with you?
Greg: Yeah. We did not take-
Jim: That would’ve been tough.
Greg: Yeah. As a matter of fact, I not only was then the father of the bride, but I also got to officiate the wedding, which was very nerve-racking. But I’m telling you, my favorite part of the entire wedding was when my 11-year-old daughter, who was a little junior bridesmaid, in the middle of the wedding ceremony, I’m, I’m asking for the ring, so this is an important part.
Jim: Right.
Greg: She’s waving at me trying to get my attention. So I’m looking at her like, seriously? Now? And then she mouths the words, “I’m bored.” So-
Jim: She’s a very honest young lady.
Greg: Yeah. I could promise you Ready to Wed is not boring.
Jim: Okay, there you go.
Greg: Maybe my parts. But we’ve assembled experts in young, newly married couples that will help you get the 8 to 10 hours that you will need to help you create a lifelong marriage.
Jim: Yeah. And I so appreciate the update. Um, obviously we’re gonna recommend our listeners get a copy of Greg and Erin’s book along with these other great resources. Maybe you know an engaged couple or a single adult who’s considering marriage in the near future, or you want to provide your church with these resources for their library.
John: That’s a great idea. In fact, Dena just gave the video set to a couple in our church, a young couple that are, uh, walking toward marriage here. So, uh, get a copy of these resources, have them available for couples in your church who really seek to a need to have that foundation formed. We’ve got all the details about Ready to Wed and how you can get an audio copy of our full conversation today at the website focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459. And Jim, here’s some feedback we’ve gotten from listeners who heard this interview the first time we aired it. And one, uh, individual told us, Greg and Erin are amazing teachers and examples, all around great people, never pass up a chance to learn from them.
Jim: I certainly agree with that assessment.
John: And another person told us he’s been listening to Focus on the Family for 20 years. He wants us to know that he’s been blessed by our advice concerning marriage, and parenting, and current events, and said he feels like Focus is there to help him live out his faith in today’s world.
Jim: Well, that’s our goal. And we want to be a marriage and parenting resource for your family.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But we can’t do that without, uh, people helping us to do it. Focus on the Family depends upon partners like you who provide the fuel as we express it here, that we need to produce the broadcast, the podcast, all the resources like this one and distribute them here in the US and Canada. Not to mention creating something like Ready to Wed as a curriculum. All of that takes, uh, resources, financial resources.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Together we can strengthen families in the name of Christ, and we can encourage young adults to think about marriage and be better prepared for it. And we can give engaged couples the tools that they need to build strong and healthy relationships. So consider a gift to Focus today. A monthly pledge is a wonderful way to do it. A one-time gift obviously still helps. Anything and everything will help us meet that mission. And let me say thank you in advance, uh, for your generosity, and thank you for being part of the ministry.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there are so many who have been with us for all these years.
Jim: Yeah.
John: I’m thinking Jim, there are probably some folks listening who have never even thought of contributing to Focus.
Jim: I think the numbers are right. I mean, if we have several million listening, we have about 200,000 households that support us. Uh, we’d love to move that number up so we can impact more people. So if you could, uh, maybe instead of having that latte today, send it to Focus.
John: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, that’ll be a great way to help other families.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, make a generous monthly pledge, or a single one-time gift of any amount to the ministry today. Join the support team, make more ministry around the world happen, and we’ll say thank you for being a part of the team by sending a copy of the book Ready to Wed: 12 Ways to Start a Marriage You’ll Love. Once again our number 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or donate at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Now, coming up tomorrow, more insights from Greg and Erin Smalley about keeping your marriage strong and healthy for a lifetime.
Greg: Sometimes couples sort of, uh, guard their relationship from the big things, but often what kills a marriage in terms of ultimately the hardening of heart are these little, small things. Like when Erin does something that hurts me, or I hurt her, and, and we just ignore it. So we just move on.
