Day One:
Gary Thomas: I’ve seen parents and grandparents compromise the truth and their faith because they don’t wanna lose access to their children or grandchildren. Um, and that’s where we have to be bold and say we love our families best by speaking the truth-
John Fuller: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … and putting Jesus first.
John: What are some of the lies that rob you of your intimacy with God? We’re gonna be exploring that topic today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, you know, one thing that I say to the team here at Focus on the Family, the leadership team, you know, we’ve got to know truth as best as we can in order to manage as well as we can. And that’s one of the great challenges of leadership. But it’s true for everybody, what is true and what’s a lie. And, you know, we glom onto little lies. I remember the one, you remember, if you ate your gum, it would be in your stomach seven years.
John: Oh, yes. (laugh)
Jim: I think that’s a lie, but I’m still not sure, (laughs) you know.
John: (laughs) I don’t want to try.
Jim: And that’s kind of a fun one. But there are other lies that are far more harmful. You know, the Bible says that Satan is the father of lies, John 8:44. It started in the garden with Genesis 3, and it didn’t stop there. I mean, it, even if you look at some of the cultural stuff going on now, it’s about me. I want to be all knowledgeable, right? Like the, the humanity, we can’t escape the central part of gravity, which is God telling us the truth about who he is and who we are.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And somehow we lose that understanding. We want scripture to bend to our desires. And that’s what you see in the culture-
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: … we don’t conform to it. But lemme tell you, everybody God will get you and He will require you to conform to it because He loves you. Um, not because he wants to shame you or anything like that. Um, I’m looking forward to this. I read the book. I looked at all, all the prep this morning, Jean and I were going over it. It was probably one of the more exciting moments to read prep this morning. The content is really good.
John: Yeah. Yeah. And Gary Thomas resonates with our audience. He’s been here so many times, and, uh, he’s a great friend to Focus on the Family. He’s a speaker, and a writer, and a pastor. Uh, his books on spiritual topics, the Christian life, marriage, um, have done phenomenally well. And he’s on the pastoral teaching team at Cherry Hills Community Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. And, uh, today, we’re gonna be covering something that, uh, came out just recently, The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God. Learn more about Gary and this book at our website, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Gary, welcome back to Focus.
Gary: Thank you guys.
Jim: I need to say, neighbor, you’re just-
Gary: (laughs). Yeah.
Jim: … up the road from us now.
Gary: Absolutely.
Jim: We should have you here every day.
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) Um, let me first say, thank you so much. What I said in that setup is so true. As I went through the material, I was like, this is good stuff. And, uh, you know, as an author, you know when you hit it, you know when maybe you just got over the line. But I hope you feel good about this book because it, everybody should get a copy, in my opinion. Uh, let’s kick it off with this, uh, issue of spiritualized creeping into our theology, our practice.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: You know, I think Dr. Dobson used to say something about kudzu and how it would cut into our life.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: But I was in the South not long ago. I saw that kudzu plant. It’s a foreign plant, I think, from Japan, but it’s invasive, and it just grows up those trees, chokes ’em off, and kills ’em. And, you know, the Lord does use nature to teach his spiritual truth. And I think that kudzu is an example of that and how it kills the life of a Christian and of any human who doesn’t pursue Him.
Gary: I, I think Paul warns us of kudzu in Romans 12:2, when he says, “Do not conform to the pattern of this world.” In the Greek, that word is eon. It could also be translated age, which I, I think both fit what Paul is saying. This world, this age, this generation has an agenda.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: You will believe this, you will think this, you will value this, you’ll prioritize this. And Paul says, if we don’t push back with the truth, as you were saying, we’re just gonna be fit into the mold of this world. We’re gonna become exactly like the citizens of the world, the world wants us to become. But Paul says, “We push back by being transformed by the renewing of our minds.”
Jim: Mm.
Gary: We can’t afford to be light with the truth. If we believe a lie, we practice a lie. If we practice a lie, we lose our life.
Jim: Yeah. That is so well said. That reminds me of Truth Rising, the documentary we released in-
Gary: No.
Jim: Have you seen it?
Gary: I, yeah. I was, was watching-
Jim: You don’t have to, don’t lie now. (laughs)
Gary: No, I, I was literally watching it this morning. Uh, great to see Os Guinness again.
Jim: Yeah, he’s, he’s so good.
Gary: Um, Neil Ferguson, I mean, always Focus gets the best of the best. And what struck me is that what he’s trying to do for culture, I think in The Life You Were Reborn to Live, I was praying I could do for the soul.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: Those lies that frustrate us. And, and I found Satan as a father of lies, will try to sew these lies into our soul to create bitterness and frustration with God. He, he doesn’t care what lie we believe. He cares that the lie will separate us from seeing God’s goodness-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … God’s grace, God’s mercy, God’s truth. That God’s way is best. And and we can be terrified by these lies.
Jim: Hmm.
Gary: My, you know, I’m unashamedly infatuated with my two grandchildren. Uh, I’m just beside-
Jim: I was gonna ask you about the granddaughter story here.
Gary: When, when I’m with them, time stops. I, I, it’s the one time I don’t care what else is happening in the world. And I was walking with her, she’s six now. She was three at the time of this. And a fire truck went by, and the siren is blaring. And, and she just scrunches up her face and closes, and she just like, really is screaming out in terror. And I thought, wow. Well, she’s got little ears. It’s really strong. It’s loud. It could be scary. Two days later, we’re with her still on that time, spending time with them, and she does the same thing. And I, like, what’s going? And then way off in the distance, now I have older ears, right? I could barely hear this siren, that, man, she must have been traumatized by this. This is really surprising to me that it would be so strong.
Three months later, we’re visiting again. She’s got great parents. I mean, I just am in awe the way they talk her through everything, the way they train her. And so I heard the siren, I saw the lights, I turn and panic toward little Anna. Oh no, what’s gonna happen? And she looks at me so chill, almost with disdain. “It’s okay, Papo. They’re just going to help someone.”
Jim: Yeah, that’s good.
Gary: And, and what her parents had told her is, rather than this threaten you, you should feel good that you live in a world where if you ever need help, people will move out of the way and people will hurry to get to you to help you. And so what was a threat to her became a form of assurance. And it’s, that’s, that’s why believing a lie has a consequence. It, it creates fear, it creates unrest. It can obliterate our relationship with God. We have to unmask the lies and replace them with the truth.
Jim: It’s so good. You know, uh, Ray Vander Laan affectionately called RVL here at Focus, he’s done, you know, so much content with us, that the world may know, RVL Discipleship series, which are great things. He’s a Jewish scholar. He interprets the scripture from a Jewish standpoint for Chr- Western Christians particularly. But one of the things he talks a lot about throughout the series is that when sin entered the world, chaos entered the world.
Gary: Yes. Yes.
Jim: Jesus came to bring God’s shalom, God’s peace, into this sin chaotic world. And I think the question outta the book that I had was, what are the consequences of believing what the world tells you and keeps you spinning in that cycle of chaos?
Gary: I, I don’t think we stress peace enough as Christians. It’s one of the best things about being a believer.
Jim: I agree.
Gary: And if you look throughout all of the Old Testament, it promises peace. Isaiah says, “The Messiah will come, he will be the prince of peace.” The Psalmist says 29:11, “The Lord blesses his people with peace.” When Jesus was born, what did the angels say to the shepherds? Peace on earth, goodwill toward men. Jesus came to bring peace. What hit me, Jim, 19 of 21 New Testament letters begin or end with an exhortation or a blessing of peace.
Jim: Peace be upon you. Yeah.
Gary: That the early church was obsessed with peace. Everybody wants peace. And that’s why I think it’s just, it’s even for evangelism. We, we talk a lot about salvation. I, I, I think we should. But if people don’t believe in the afterlife, it’s like when somebody says, “Hey, Gary, here’s the best of a Michael Bolton album.” I’m like, “Well, I don’t want the best of Michael Bolton.” (laughs) I mean, his best isn’t something I’m interested in.
Jim: Well, I’m so glad you said that. (laughs)
Gary: (laughs) Um, and, and so, but everybody wants peace. And when we can display peace in a chaotic world, it shows a supernatural presence because Biblical peace is relational, not situational.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: I, I was so struck, I, I really borrow, um, from Henry Drummond in this, when he wrote a fabulous essay on peace, that it’s often pursuing peace, that we chase it away because we think peace is situational. If I fix this, I have a certain amount of money set aside. If I like my job, if I like who’s in charge of the government, if everybody’s good with me, if all of my children love me and they’re following the Lord, then I’ll finally have peace. And he points out that will never all be true. And Jesus had really none of those. He didn’t have the money. He had enemies. He had a death sentence. He had fair-weather friends who deserted him.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: And yet he personified peace. And learning what it means, that peace is relational instead of situational means every listener, everybody watching us online right now could begin to experience peace today. You don’t have to fix everything in your life.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: When you recognize that Jesus is a source of peace.
Jim: And in that context, you had a story, I think about a young surgeon, uh, who demonstrated this peace.
Gary: Yeah. Uh, I’ll call him Vihon. He was a successful orthopedic surgeon. His career was taking off, he’s teaching internationally, was brilliant, was asked to operate on an elbow that was really messed up, and he fixed it. But it was one of those things where it was so messed up, it wasn’t gonna be perfect. And a very astute lawyer sued him for malpractice for $50,000. Now, those who are in the know, realize that’s a, just pay me and I’ll go away.
Jim: Correct.
Gary: Because any insurance company’s gonna know it’s gonna cost us 10 times that much-
Jim: Right.
Gary: … to do it. But the surgeon is horrified. I’ve, I’ve got this growing reputation, I’m gonna have a malpractice lawsuit that is settled. And he said, for two years, he heard about it just going into surgery and he’s asking for God’s help. No, I need to focus on this next surgery. But afterwards, he said, “Gary, I lost two years of sleep. I lived with anxiety. I alternated between anger and a sense of dis-ease. Am I gonna be fired from teaching? Am I gonna lose my practice? My reputation’s gonna be shattered.” And he lived that for two years until finally they said, no, we’re gonna settle. And I looked at him, this had been like eight years prior, so the lawsuit had been 10 years before. I said, “So Vihon, looking back now on a scale of 1 to 100, 100 being it was devastating to your career, and 1 is it wasn’t even a blip, how much did it impact you? And he said, “Zero-
Jim: Mm.
Gary: … but I lost two years with dis-ease, worry, and anger.” And that’s what I mean about you can have peace even when the situation’s bad, we lose so much when we give into the situation. The analogy I give, I said this in a sermon one time, imagine you’re in the midst of a hurricane and the roof is literally lifting off your house and the walls are flying, furniture’s going around. Wow. I didn’t know that cows could fly, but I just saw one, you know?
Jim: Right.
Gary: That kind of storm. But Jesus enters the room, and maybe you picture him coming up to you and taking your cheeks in his hands and looking you in the eyes. I like to picture a 10-foot-tall Jesus just-
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: … encircling me from behind holding me on. Just as a guy, if Jesus has his arms around me while the house is flying apart, I’m opening my eyes to watch the show. (laughs)
Jim: Right.
Gary: Wow. Whoa, Jesus, how are you gonna fix this? How are you gonna do that? And I realize that a lack of peace is insulting Jesus. It’s the opposite of worshiping Jesus. If I know that Jesus has me, I could literally lose everything in this world, and I’m still one of the richest men ever. Because in Jesus, I have everything beyond this world.
Jim: And you know, for some people, Gary, that’s gonna be hard to understand because they’re living in such a pit, such a valley right now that, “Oh, yeah. Okay, good. So you found a way out and you’re happy. I’m still down here in darkness.” And I, I think, you know, how do we help that person that can’t see it yet-
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: … or is in the, the emotional mire of the moment-
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: … and they resent it, or they’re bitter, or angry at God?
Gary: Henry Drummond has a recipe. He says, “Peace has a recipe just like baking a cake.” And we don’t have time to get into all of the recipe for that, but one of the things he says that most upsets our peace, if we wanna get back, is that if we embrace, when Jesus said, “I am gentle and humble in heart.” It’s the humility of Jesus and the gentleness of Jesus. If I embrace Jesus’s humility and I’m mocked at by the world, or even humiliated by the world, if I don’t have pride, if I don’t get my ego from the world’s affirmation, I, I don’t care how the world views me. If I’m gentle, I’m not fighting others. And just think about how fighting online, fighting at church, getting involved in these useless family squabbles, what destroys our peace more than that?
Jim: Yeah.
John: That’s Gary Thomas, and he’s our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we’re, uh, talking about his book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God. Uh, you can get a copy of this book at our website, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Gary, in the book, you make a distinction between Disneyland and the jungle.
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: Uh, you’re not confused about the jungle ride at Disneyland.
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) What are you trying to get at there?
Gary: This is one of my-
Jim: And be careful. (laughs)
Gary: … uh, favorite chapters about how we often wanna control everything in our lives. And that destroys spiritual adventure. Jesus describes a Christian life this way, John 3:8, “The wind blows where it pleases and you hear it sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes,” this is the key, “so it is with everyone born of the spirit.” The Christian life fully lived is a life where we are invited into spiritual adventure. It’s the opposite of Disneyland. Um, I, I got to go there with my grandkids. Um, and It’s a Small World After All, they were the same dolls, there was the same song that I heard 30 years ago and has been plaguing me ever since.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: Once you go in, it never lets you go. But life with Jesus is more like living in a jungle. You don’t know what’s around the next corner. You don’t know what’s gonna happen. But we need that excitement, Jim. I- instead of trying to control our life, it’s recognizing that God is supernatural and that God is active and through his Holy Spirit, he wants to use us in ways we could never dream of being used.
Jim: Mm-hmm. It takes, uh, a fearlessness though, to be able to live that way.
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: So he also says, don’t have a spirit of fear. Right?
Gary: Right.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: Well, and here’s the thing. Who controls my life better? If I’m in control or God’s in control? God’s gonna do a better job. And most of Jesus’s ministry looked spontaneous. He didn’t get with His disciples and say, “Okay, at 10:00 there’s gonna be the woman at the well. We’re gonna have an insight with the Pharisees at 2:00 PM. I’m gonna heal somebody from demons before dinner, and then we’ll go out and have a barbecue.” It, it was, He had the power of God within Him and ministered that way. And here’s what I think is so important for families. I’m seeing marriages, which is what I usually write and talk about, starved from a lack of spiritual adventure.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: If husband and wife will join together and stop focusing on why can’t she do this, why won’t he do that? Instead get together and say, “What can we do for God? What gifts, what experiences has God given us?” And then pray for each other, Lord open up the door, like you and Jean did. Well, you know what? Maybe we can bring some foster kids into our home. Well, that’s-
Jim: Well, that’ll be exciting. (laughs)
Gary: … that’s gonna be chaotic and exciting. But it’s like praying for your husband, praying for your wife, and they go off to work. You think you’re gonna have coffee, you think you’re gonna have an interview. What if God wants to use that for supernatural ends, to open up somebody to the faith? And then it’s also great for parenting. We so focus as parents, “Kids, don’t look at this, don’t do that. Don’t say that. Don’t drink this, smoke that, or watch that.” Instead of, we get together with our kids and say, “You know what? You’re a Christian. God’s given you his Holy Spirit. Open your eyes and ears to how he might want to use you today.”
Jim: Mm.
Gary: Maybe there’s a teacher everybody’s gossiping about, you could tell she’s having a terrible day. Maybe you’re the one that goes up and encourages her. And then at the end of the day, “Hey, did anybody have any of those God moments today-
Jim: Yeah. That’s good.
Gary: … where God really used them?” Because Jim, if if kids learn what it is to be used by God, I believe they’re gonna be ruined to the world.
Jim: It’s so good. Uh, you know, one of the things you write about in the book on marriage is not to make that an idol in essence. And I have heard that before. You know, as I’ve talked to friends who have constructive criticism for me about-
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: … uh, you know, Focus on the Family making marriage or parenting an idol. I get that. But we’re also called as a ministry to focus on those issues.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: So if we’ve communicated that this is number one in people’s place, your marriage or your family, it’s not, it’s hopefully number two, God being at the core and the foundation of all. Uh, but we are given to a marriage in parenting ministry (laughs). So we talk a lot about those things.
Gary: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But in that context, um, what is your warning for us to be careful about family first as a theme?
Gary: Yes. Look, I, I’ve gotta say, Jim, and I’ve said this before, how indebted I am to Focus on the Family. I think to focus on my marriage, to focus on my kids, I, I will be eternally indebted to this ministry that reminds me to put them first with the stories of people who didn’t. And I said, I don’t want to do that. And the rewards of people who said they did, and I thought that’s what I want. I talked to a pastor yesterday who ruined his marriage by putting his ministry first. He lost his family.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: So it, I think we do wanna say, “Hey, it’s primary to focus on your family, but we will love our family best when we love God first.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: And I had to grapple with a few verses of Jesus. Well, not just a few, but many teachings and passages where Jesus warns that sometimes faith in him might divide a family. He said in Matthew 10:21-22, “Brother will betray brother to death, a father his child, children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. You’ll be hated by everyone because of me. But the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.” So Jesus isn’t saying, if you don’t love your family well, they’re gonna hate you. He says, if you love Me well, they might hate you. Which Jim, this is the hard truth. All of us have to be like Abraham that put our children on the altar.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: Not physically where we’re going to sacrifice them, but spiritually. I- if we don’t do this, what I’ve seen is that I, I’ve seen parents and grandparents compromise the truth and their faith because they don’t wanna lose access to their children or grandchildren. Um, and that’s where we have to be bold and say we love our families best by speaking the truth, going back to what we said earlier-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … and putting Jesus first. Um, and so I, I don’t think we have to pit the two against each other. Families are miraculous. Like I said, I’m besotted with my children and grandchildren. I love my wife as dearly as I ever have. 41 years into our marriage. But our heart will break if we don’t realize we can’t put our hope, our joy, and our fulfillment in fallen people. It’s in God’s spiritual family. And so, the couple I know that lost their only child, they’ve adopted a lot of spiritual children. They’re so active with so many people.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: Women who have been abandoned by their husband, um, have found so great friendships in the church. Parents whose children have estranged themselves from them, which is a growing problem-
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: … in the church, I’m seeing as a pastor. Giving themselves to become spiritual mothers and fathers in the church. God doesn’t promise us that we’ll have perfect earthly families. He promises us that through Christ, He will adopt us into His family.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: And that’s the grace and hope that we have.
Jim: It is. And that’s kind of the family context. You also talk about cultivating community.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: And in that way, you have a story of-
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: … a older gentleman who goes to Starbucks and turns his chair out. I’ll put that in air quotes-
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: … “turns his chair out.” Um-
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: … who is he and what is he doing?
Gary: Well-
Jim: And is he accomplishing anything?
Gary: Yeah. I, I’m an introvert. And when my parents lived in Sumner, Washington, before they moved in with my sister, I would be visiting from Texas. I lived in Texas back then, and I would be the first one to open up Starbucks. They opened up at 4:00 AM. I’m a morning person. I was already on Central Time. And I would just go there to get some caffeine and to do some work. And I loved this corner, ’cause I could escape from the world. My back is to the whole restaurant. I could plug in my laptop, nobody’s gonna bother me. Everybody could come and go. Well, they changed the layout. You know how Starbucks-
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: … does that sometimes. So I had to be out front and I just, I didn’t like that. But I was able to look at the restaurant and there was this older guy coming in, I’d say probably mid-80s. He was the exact opposite of me. He would come in every time, ’cause I would do this several days in a row and rearrange the furniture.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: So if you came in, you went by him. And if you came out, you went by him. And every barista got a hug, or a kiss, or a hello. Every customer was greeted. I walked by, he held up his hand and he literally had written the code for the bathroom on his hand.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: He just, and I just thought-
Jim: Well, he is in his 80s. (laughs)
Gary: Yes. So I, I thought, you know, I go in and I turn my chair in to escape from the world. He turns his chair out to welcome the world in. And I said, you know what? I need to be more like him. In this chapter, I realized how relational our faith is.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: And this relational component I think is getting lost more and more. And I just wanna say, I think you’re gonna be a better spouse if you have friendships outside of your marriage. I think you’re gonna be a better parent if you develop friendships outside of your own kids. Um, it’s just, we learn from each other, we encourage each other, we build each other up. And it’s great to be building our family, but I think we’ll build an even better family when we’re inviting others into our life.
Jim: Hey, Gary, this was great. Uh, I wanna say thank you for all that research. You do such a beautiful job. Your book on marriage is one of the best books I’ve ever read. So thank you for the skill you bring to crafting a book. I mean, it’s, to make it hit home with people is really a gift that the Lord’s given you. And this book doesn’t miss the mark. It’s equally forceful, equally encouraging to lift us up to something bigger and better and more godly. And so, if you can, let’s stick around. We’ll pick up on day two and continue the discussion. Can we do that? And then, uh, tomorrow we’re gonna dismantle more of the lies that Gary’s pointing out. And we hope to give, uh, our listeners that freedom in Christ.
And so, I want to ask you to come back next time and enjoy it. I wanna encourage you to get a copy of Gary’s terrific book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live. And it really talks again about enlisting into service for Christ. And we’d love to get this into your hands. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Another great resource is our Truth Rising documentary. We just released it in September. It’s free on our website along with the documentary, there’s a four-part study that John Stonestreet from the Colson Center has written for us. If you’re interested in learning more about how you can combat the lives of secular culture and get engaged, we’ve got you covered. You can find the details on our website truthrising.com, or watch the entire documentary for free on YouTube. Let me just say, our generous donors are the fuel that keeps the ministry engine running here at Focus on the Family.
We are listener- and donor-supported. We’re working every day to equip parents, strengthen marriages, save pre-born babies, and help their mothers and share the hope of Jesus Christ. Last year alone, Focus on the Family had the privilege to be part of 292,000 decisions for Christ. That’s kingdom impact. But we’re counting on your generous donations to keep that engine running. And when you give to Focus, we’re delivering that hope and joy to people like Kirsten from Indiana who wrote to tell us this. “We recently increased our pledge donation to $100 a month. My husband and I had been married for five years and we have three children and are expecting twins.”
John: Wow. (laughs)
Jim: Tip into Focus on the Family-
John: A full …
Jim: … ’cause you’re certainly creating a family.
John: (laughs)
Jim: She goes on to site. “My husband and I didn’t come from stable families. And the daily broadcast, along with the resource suggestions have been a lifesaver. Because of your ministry, our marriage has benefited, and we are learning the parenting skills that were never modeled to us. And I can only say, praise God.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Because that’s who deserves the, uh, glory for that.
John: That’s really encouraging to hear. And you can continue to provide much needed support to moms like Kirsten when you partner with Focus on the Family. So please, donate today. And right now through a special match opportunity, your year-end gift will be doubled dollar-for-dollar. God’s gonna use your gift to bring healing and redemption and hope to twice the families. So learn more about Truth Rising, donate, and get a copy of this excellent book from Gary Thomas, The Life You Were Reborn to Live, all when you call 800, the Letter A and the word family. That’s 800-232-6459 or stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Gary Thomas and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Gary Thomas: We have been rescued, and if we realize what we were rescued from, we will live with joy and we will live with worship, and we’ll set the bar really low for anything else God has to… God doesn’t have to prove himself anymore. He’s more than proven himself.
John Fuller: That’s Gary Thomas, and he joins us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, uh, sharing how he believes Christians can be set free from spiritual lies that hinder our relationship with God. I’m John Fuller, and we’re so glad you’ve joined us today.
Jim Daly: John, we had a fascinating conversation with Gary last time about the things that rob our intimacy with God. Lemme put it on pause. What robs you of that intimacy?
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Something popping up like maybe you don’t have peace, or you’re over-controlling, or maybe you’re putting your family in that first position. It needs to be the Lord.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Those are all things we covered last time. So if you missed it, you can go to the website or better yet, uh, get the app-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and download the Focus on the Family broadcast app. And you’ll have everything there, podcasts, broadcasts, and access to the full library.
John: Yeah, it’s free. It’s great. Uh, get that app and start listening today. Uh, Gary Thomas is a prolific writer. Uh, he’s got numerous books about marriage and walking with God, and they’ve sold millions of copies. He’s a recurring, uh, guest here at Focus, always popular, and, uh, is on the pastoral teaching team at Cherry Hills Community Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. We’re talking today, a continuation, as Jim said, of uh, what started last time, uh, talking about the book, The Life You were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy With God. Uh, get a copy of the book from us here at our website, FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Gary, welcome back to Focus on the Family. Great to have you as always.
Gary: Thank you.
Jim: And now it’s just a close drive from Denver to Colorado Springs.
Gary: And a beautiful drive at that.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It is, isn’t it? Now, you know our little secret. Hey, let’s start with Scripture. Romans 12:2 tells us, “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind.” Now, let me add a little additional Scripture there where Paul says, “Those things I don’t want to do, I do, and those things I should do, I don’t do,” in essence. So put those two together for us. It is kinda that battle of our mind, our heart, our soul that Paul’s actually recognizing in his own heart. And he’s, man, he’s a giant of the faith.
Gary: Yeah. Well, belief sets up what we practice. We will never practice perfectly this side of heaven. We are all going to be a work in progress. In fact, one of the chapters that was hardest for me to write was living with the ongoing reality of sin, recognizing that that’s going to be a continuing factor. What is my relationship with sin? How can I learn from that, rather than be defeated about that?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: Uh, but if I don’t believe the truth, I’m going to practice a lie and I’m going to live a lie. So the mind isn’t everything, but when he says, “be transformed by the renewing of your mind,” I do think he says it begins there. And so often when Paul sets up the ethics, it’s remember who you are before he tells us what to do. You’re dearly beloved. You’re chosen by God. You’re adopted by God. Therefore, live this way. If we are mistaken about who we are, we’re gonna be mistaken in the way we live.
Jim: And it’s so true. Uh, Gary, you mentioned, uh, a lie in the book about self-serving salvation.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: Let’s hit that, ’cause that one jumped off the page at me. We all do that to a certain degree. I think it’s just, and again, in our fallen nature as human beings. And you’ve got to keep checking that in your spirit, in your soul, to hopefully make sure you’re doing it less and less.
Gary: Right.
Jim: But speak to self-serving salvation. What does that mean?
Gary: It means we make it all about us. It means… And this is one of the lies I think I picked up in the church, that Jesus lived a perfect life, died on the cross, rose from the dead so that my sins could be forgiven and I could live with Him in heaven for eternity.
Jim: Yeah-
Gary: It-
Jim: … that’s all true.
Gary: That’s true, but it’s not complete. That’s a self-centered view, where, okay, I get forgiven and I hang on for heaven, and that’s what it means to live the Christian life. Paul says in II Corinthians 5:15, “And He died for all, that,” and the word that is basically meaning because, “He died for all that, those who live should no longer live for themselves-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … “but for him who died for them and was raised again.”
Jim: Right.
Gary: So the full gospel isn’t just Jesus saved me, but that God enlists me. He has a plan for my life. He has a plan for everybody watching. And theologians will think this is obscene when I use this analogy, but there’s the word election in Scripture about God chooses us. I like to liken it to the NFL Draft. And again, apology to all the theologians, but it works in a church. It preaches in a church-
Jim: (Laughs).
Gary: … to common people, trust me. And so if you’re chosen to be in a draft, you’re not just chosen to put on a uniform and cash a paycheck, i.e., call yourself a Christian and get to heaven. You’re chosen to play a position. In 2025, the Denver Broncos drafted Jeremy Crawshaw, and if you see a picture of him, he’s all legs. He’s got the longest legs I’ve ever seen.
Jim: (Laughs)
Gary: Nobody thinks he was drafted to be an offensive lineman, right? Or Bo Nix would have a very long day, getting crushed.
Jim: You’re right.
Gary: He’s a punter, and he looks like a punter. And this means every believer, you’re chosen not to sit on the bench and wait to get into heaven. God has a role for you to play. He’s given you gifts. He’s given you talents. He wants to use you to fulfill a role in His kingdom. And if we have just a self-centered view of salvation, when life starts to hurt and ministry starts to get hard, we wanna jump off. A, a verse that has just changed my life, I’ve just been living with, 2 Timothy 4:5… There’s an ellipsis in the middle, but Paul tells Timothy, “Endure hardship. Discharge all the duties of your ministry.” And Paul’s warning Timothy faith means you’re gonna be hot, you’re gonna be cold, you’re gonna be tired, you’re gonna be persecuted, but Timothy hang in there. Sometimes you have to endure it. It’s not just about getting to heaven. It’s about fulfilling all the duties of your ministry.
I, I was speaking to a physician once, and she’s telling… she, she believes God created her to be a physician, but her office spends as much time trying to get paid from insurance and Medicaid as they do caring for patients. She’s threatened with one-star reviews, uh, malpractice lawsuits. And she says, “Gary, I, I, I wanna practice medicine, but I’m so tired of this and this and this. And why do I have to put up with that?” As a pastor, you like to be comforting, but sometimes as a pastor, you have to say what I said to her, what Paul said to Timothy, “If God has called you to do this, that means you have to endure the hardship and discharge all the duties of your ministry.”
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: And I’ve, I’ve said it to husbands. I had one husband-
Jim: Be careful now.
John: (Laughs).
Gary: Yeah. Well, well, his wife was divorcing him, I didn’t believe for, uh, Biblical reasons. And you put up with a lot when you’re facing that. And he finally texted me, and he said this, “Gary, why am I fighting for this marriage?” And here’s what I texted back to him: “You’re fighting for your marriage because you made vows before God, because you want your kids to have an intact home, because God is using even your wife’s tiresome aspects to help you grow. You’ve been digging deeper into your faith in part because of the way you’re being mistreated. This doesn’t make it easy, but it makes it worthwhile.” Now, I, I’ve had people try to sidestep this call saying, Gary, you and I both know God’s gonna forgive me, and I’m gonna go to heaven anyway. I’ve literally heard that-
Jim: Oh yeah.
John: Me too.
Gary: … in any number of ethical situations. That comes from a self-serving salvation, that view that it’s all about being saved, forgiven, and waiting for heaven, which is not the gospel Jesus taught when he said, “Seek first the kingdom of God.” It’s not what Paul taught when he said, “He died for all that those who live no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again.”
Jim: Man, there is so much in that answer, Gary. Moving to another, uh, lie that we need to dismantle is that materialistic world. This is probably one of the biggest battles for the west, um, the battle between a materialistic world and a supernatural, spirit-led world. Uh, how do we reduce the one and increase the other in our relationship with God?
Gary: This was one of the t- (laughs)-
Jim: I kinda like running water and bathrooms inside the house.
Gary: Yes (laughs).
Jim: Are those… Is that a materialistic thing?
Gary: No. What, what we’re, w- what I’m talking about there is a materialistic worldview that denies the supernatural aspects-
Jim: Okay.
Gary: … specifically the reality of angels. And I, I have to confess, I, I hardly ever taught about angels and spoke about angels, because I was thinking my friends would say, oh, Gary, and are you waiting for the Easter bunny to show up? I mean, kinda that thing. But when I looked into how pervasive angels were throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament, it is shocking. Just about every major movement of God, the angels were active there. And then the New Testament saying that angels are still active today. And the way that changes our faith, what it does for me is it takes it from living a life of feeling alone and fearful to going on the offense. I’m not just playing defense. God’s mighty messengers are there to help fight God’s battles. This is a Christian privilege. People talk about everybody has a guardian angel. I’m not sure I’m buying that. The angels are sent to be messengers of God’s servants. Psalm 91:9 and 11 says, “If you say the Lord is my refuge and you make the most high your dwelling, then He will command His angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … which believer, this is one of the great Kingdom privileges. There are millions of ’em, but you give your trust to God, and God says to his mighty angel warriors… They’re not little fat cherubs in wings wearing diapers. These are mighty messengers that make people feel terrified… God is saying to them this is My daughter. Protect her. Empower her as she goes out. A, a widow who read an earlier chapter of this book… This was so fulfilling… uh, wrote to me and said, “Gary, I was in tears. I lost my husband this past year. I’m an older woman. I felt so alone. And I read about this divine protection that’s real and some of the stories you shared about how angels were really there.” And she goes, “I’ve never felt safer since-
Jim: Wow. That’s interesting.
Gary: … my husband died.
Jim: And Gary, this question isn’t to put you on the spot, but to recognize there are people that maybe they didn’t get that supernatural intervention, something bad did happen to them-
Gary: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … but speak to them too. It doesn’t mean God has abandoned you, but it, it can feel like that.
Gary: Well, you see both. In the life of Jesus, frankly, there’s a time when it said they made up their mind to stone Him, and then Jesus walked through the crowd-
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: … ’cause it wasn’t time for Him to die. But then Jesus was crucified. You have Peter delivered from prison, and yet James was beheaded. Uh, and so the Bible tells us there are times when God will intervene, um, and protect us. We always have His protection. It may not be in the earthly form that we want, but, uh, Jim, those are one of those unanswerable questions. I can’t give a definitive answer that I think-
Jim: Well, let me, let me put-
Gary: … would satisfy everybody.
Jim: Yeah, let me put it in this context. Sometimes we keep score as human beings. So if you have enough credits with God, you don’t get hurt.
Gary: Oh, yeah.
Jim: If you have credits with God, He protects you. That’s not how it works.
Gary: No, not at all. You don’t see it in Scripture. Some of the most faithful servants of God, uh, suffered the most. You see in the Book of Revelation all the martyrs, people who were literally killed for their faith crying out, “When will we be avenged?” Uh, and so God uses His servants… I, I think of it this way. There is a whole spiritual battle going on, and this might seem hardcore, but there’s a story from the Civil War. It’s actually from the Battle of Gettysburg, where the union lines were being broken through, and they didn’t have time to regather. And so a general had to make the horrible decision to send 50 men. “You need to go plug that hole while we pull back.” Every man that went forward knew they would not come back. They would be killed. The general knew he was sending them to their death-
Jim: Mm.
Gary: … but for the battle to be won, he had to do it. Those men went. All of them were killed, but the line was spared. The union won that battle and eventually the war. We have to recognize God is our general. He is our sovereign.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: Now, we’ve got a glorious eternity ahead of us, but if He calls us to sacrifice ourselves, um, in this battle, as we’ve seen recently-
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: I, I think young Charlie Kirk, we think how much could he have done-
Jim: Mm.
Gary: … if he had been allowed to live? But Jesus was 33 when he died. Dietrich Bonhoeffer never made it to 40. I mean, I think throughout history, you see these great lights that live relatively short lives.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: But we can live a life with confident knowing it’s not random, God’s going to protect us, and we’re gonna go to a tremendous place we would never wanna leave if we saw what it was.
Jim: And that’s probably the best promise.
John: Yeah. Hmm. Some great stuff today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And our guest is Gary Thomas. We’re talking about his book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy With God. Get a copy of the book from us here at the ministry. Uh, you’ll find it at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Gary, you write in the book on entitlement, and you said, which I thought was the knockdown quote and the reason I wanna make this statement, you said, “When entitlement drops, happiness rises.”
Gary: Yes.
Jim: Y- You know, that sounds so counterintuitive, which is so God, right? And at first I thought about that in a parenting context. If you can get those teenagers to relax on entitlement, their happiness will rise. And that is true, I believe. Same is true in marriage.
Gary: Yes (laughs).
Jim: Same is true for us individually. I mean, it’s consistent through our lives, this idea that when your entitlement drops, you’ll actually be happier.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Uh, in fact, you point to a Russian author who drills this point as well. How does that Russian author connect to that idea?
Gary: This chapter hit me as hard as any of them. I-
Jim: I loved it.
Gary: I would’ve been appalled if anybody had called me entitled until I realized how entitled I am. The problem of being entitled is you don’t realize (laughs) that you’re entitled, because you’re entitled.
Jim: Right.
Gary: Um, Dostoevsky, it’s a powerful story. He’s, uh, I, I think one of the greatest novelists ever, we could say of the 20th century, but I, I would say ever. Crime and Punishment, The Brothers Karamazov, The Idiot, I mean, these are deep works of faith and fiction and psychological insight. He almost never got to write any of ’em. When he was in his 20s, he’d just been writing some nonfiction pamphlets. He was arrested with some friends for what Russia called anti-government activities and sentenced to death by a firing squad. So he’s there not having written any of these novels, literally looking down the barrels of guns that are gonna take away his life for just writing these nonfiction pamphlets. And we don’t know why, but there was a last-minute reprieve where he was sentenced to four years of hard labor in a Siberian labor camp. And normally we joke about a Siberian labor camp, like it’s the worst place in the world, ’cause it kind of is, nine months of winter, no day off.
Jim: (Laughs).
Gary: You work as long as it’s light. And he maintained a sweet spirit because he didn’t compare the Siberian labor camp to Santa Barbara. He compared it to I should be dead.
Jim: Right.
Gary: I shouldn’t be alive. I was seconds… One pull of that trigger, and I would be gone. And it filled his novels. It shaped his life. I get to write about Sonia. I get to write about the Brothers Karamazov. I get to do this, this whole sense of I don’t deserve any of this. And Jim, this is how it should be for every believer who realizes we deserve eternal death, that our sin has separated us from God, and yet Jesus died so that we could have a relationship with God, and then we can have the Holy Spirit within us, and we can have the hope of heaven, when we should be in despair by what we deserve on our own. Uh, and God saving us has given us more than we ever deserve. If we could see what we’ve been saved from, as Dostoevsky saw the guns that he was saved from, w- we would be on our knees every day, God, I can’t believe I’m not where I should be.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: And yet we think that… We dismiss it. Jesus made it very clear in John 16:33… This is about not letting a lie rob you from intimacy with God… “In this world, you will have trouble. But take heart, I’ve overcome the world.” Genesis three 3:16 says relationships will be hard. 1 Corinthians 7 means the battle against sin will be ongoing. 1 Corinthians says unless Jesus returns, we’re gonna face sickness and death. The Bible is not lying to us that these things will come even to the family of God. And Jesus doubles down, in this world, you’re gonna have trouble. Paul sets the bar at entitlement shockingly low. 1 Timothy 6:8, “If we have food and clothing, we will be content with that.”
Jim: Hmm.
Gary: Now, I’m just saying, how many, how-
Jim: (Laughs)
Gary: How often, when I s- w- what kind of clothing? What kind of food? And people usually say clothing would include housing, but what kind of house? And everything that we add to John 16:33 and 1 Timothy 6:8 is where we become entitled.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: God, I deserve this and that. And then I think of the Apostle Paul, who gave up all of that because he was so enamored by his love for God, Paul, who chose to go from being the persecutor to the persecuted. Instead of I’m gonna put you in prison, no, now you get to put me in prison. That’s somebody who doesn’t have entitlement thinking. And so I just wanna go back to help people understand it. And this is so key, what it means to be rescued, that the Bible stresses so many times the word rescued. Colossians 1:13 through 14, “He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son He loves.” You, you mentioned Romans 7, “What a wretched man I am. Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?” Galatians 1, “Grace and peace to you from God, our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age.” We have been rescued.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: And if we realize what we were rescued from, we will live with joy, and we will live with worship, and we’ll set the bar really low for anything else God has to… God doesn’t have to prove Himself anymore. He’s more than-
Jim: Mm.
Gary: … proven himself by rescuing us. We were imprisoned by sin. We were slaves to Satan. We were guilty, deserving the wrath of God. He wiped that out. And, and I can’t tell you, once I laid down entitlement, so much more joy, so much more worship, so much more gratitude.
Jim: You know, I’ve thought about that, uh, in the context of my own experiences in this life, but I believe it feels so sound that when a person is in those kinds of valleys and they’re faithful, God smiles-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … because when you get there and you’re still trusting in God, you’re content in all things, he’s got you. You’re in his hand. Nothing of this world is gonna be able to, you know, pull you away. And that, that is such a good place. Uh, Gary, in this context of a rich toward God life… That’s the way you said it, so I’ll say it that way… in the book, you made a profound discovery in Scripture when you looked at the difference between Paul and Herod Agrippa II. What was that?
Gary: Yes.
John: Mm.
Gary: Uh, this changed my life, thinking about it-
Jim: Huh?
Gary: … because it is so hard when Paul says, “Don’t conform to the pattern of this world.”‘ This world says what matters is wealth so that you’re at least comfortable, health, power, influence, that people speak well of you, listen to you, pay attention to you, and respect you. Agrippa II had all of that. He, he cozied up to Rome so he would rule for decades, hence, after he interacted with Paul. Uh, he had all the money. He had all the power. He ruled. Every guy would like to be in his situation. Um, he was not a godly man. He’s with Bernice all the time, who was not his wife. She was his sister. Yes, there were rumors (laughs). He didn’t live a life at all that honored God, but he’s, he’s evaluating Paul. And Paul is brought in from prison, so he smells. He’d received already the 40 lashes minus one five times, which will scar you for life. He would die in months times. He had no money, no influence, and then acts as… The, the Pharisees are saying Paul’s not fit to speak, which I think is the worst opinion in the history of worst opinions. I wish Paul had written twice what he did.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: And so you look at that, and it looks like Agrippa won, he had all the power, the wealth, the comfort, the respect. Paul looked like he had none of that. And yet today, 2000 years later, no one would even know who Agrippa II was, except for that interaction with the forgotten Paul.
Jim: Hmm.
Gary: And I don’t think it’s hyperbole. I don’t think there’s a minute on the planet earth where Paul’s words aren’t being discussed, memorized, or read somewhere on this planet.
Jim: Hmm.
Gary: Paul won, if I’m a pastor, if I mention Paul from a pulpit, everybody knows whom I’m talking about. If I go into a mall and say, well, Agrippa says, uh, nobody knows who I’m talking about. And so it’s about living a rich toward God life, that these things that we think matter… Um, if I’ve read… I’ve done this in other places… who the world’s richest man was 25 years ago, nobody had ever heard of him. I mean, today we hear the names Bezos and Elon Musk, and we think they’re larger than life and they’ll never be forgotten. And I go back and read these names. And, and then you, you think, well, everybody knows the presidents, right? And so I ask him, well, what Chester Arthur’s philosophy of life?
Jim: Hmm.
Gary: Uh, unless people had to memorize those things in high school, nobody remembers that Chester Arthur was a president. Fewer could say one thing he stood for or what he did. So the world’s fame is literally like soap bubbles.
Jim: (Laughs)
Gary: It doesn’t matter. And every day we spend trying to build our own kingdom instead of the Kingdom of God, we are literally blowing soap bubbles. We’re wasting our lives.
Jim: Hmm.
Gary: And the one thing I never wanna hear, I never wanna hear… ‘Cause every one of us is gonna see Jesus face-to-face. You will. I will. Everybody listening or watching… I don’t want to hear Jesus saying, “Gary, Gary, Gary, you spent your entire life fighting battles that don’t matter. You missed the one that does.” Now, I still think I’ll be saved by the mercy of Jesus, but I don’t wanna have that conversation. I don’t wanna enter eternity thinking that I missed the one life on earth that could be invested to seek first the Kingdom of God instead of the kingdom of Gary.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Man, that is what it’s all about.
John: Yeah.
Jim: And that’s the best place we could land. There’s so much more we could talk about, but Gary, this has been so good and so thought-provoking-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and spiritually provoking. And I hope the, uh, the folks have really enjoyed the Scripture. A lot of Scripture was used in this program.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Points us all back to God’s way, God’s attitude and what He wants for us as a father. And, uh, this has been terrific. Thanks so much for being with us.
Gary: Thank you guys.
Jim: And let me turn to the listener. I wanna encourage you to get a copy of this terrific resource, The Life You Were Reborn to Live. And you can do that by making a gift to Focus on the Family of any amount, and we’ll send you the book as our way of saying thank you. Also, we’re counting on, uh, regular contributors who will work with us month to month to strengthen marriages, equip parents, save preborn babies, and help all of us become better followers of Christ. When you contribute to Focus on the Family, you’re delivering hope and joy to parents and grandparents like Janice, who wrote to tell us this: “I’m a grandmother now and have listened to your show for many years. I believe the family is under attack. And although my gift is small, I wanna support the work you do to strengthen Christian families and save babies.” I love that.
Gary: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “May God continue to use you and bless your work.” And we’re grateful for every gift.
John: We are. And, uh, we’re so grateful for your partnership. Uh, you help strengthen marriages and support parents and grandparents like Janice when you partner with Focus on the Family. So please contribute today. And right now through a special matching opportunity, your year-end gift will be doubled dollar for dollar. God’s gonna use your gift to bring healing and redemption and hope to twice the families. Donate and get your copy of that book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live, uh, when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. Or you can give at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. We’ll plan to join us again tomorrow, as we hear from marriage coach and author Dan Seaborn. He’s gonna share how God took his marriage from stressed out to peaceful.
Dan Seaborn: And so I said, Lord, I’m not dying like that. I want you to change me. I want you to make me a man that she loves to be around and says, “You’re blowing fresh oxygen onto the flame of our marriage.” So, Lord, show me what I gotta do.
