Day One
Gary Thomas: I’ve seen parents and grandparents compromise the truth and their faith because they don’t wanna lose access to their children or grandchildren. Um, and that’s where we have to be bold and say we love our families best by speaking the truth-
John Fuller: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … and putting Jesus first.
John: What are some of the lies that rob you of your intimacy with God? We’re gonna be exploring that topic today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, you know, one thing that I say to the team here at Focus on the Family, the leadership team, you know, we’ve got to know truth as best as we can in order to manage as well as we can. And that’s one of the great challenges of leadership. But it’s true for everybody, what is true and what’s a lie. And, you know, we glom onto little lies. I remember the one, you remember, if you ate your gum, it would be in your stomach seven years.
John: Oh, yes. (laugh)
Jim: I think that’s a lie, but I’m still not sure, (laughs) you know.
John: (laughs) I don’t want to try.
Jim: And that’s kind of a fun one. But there are other lies that are far more harmful. You know, the Bible says that Satan is the father of lies, John 8:44. It started in the garden with Genesis 3, and it didn’t stop there. I mean, it, even if you look at some of the cultural stuff going on now, it’s about me. I want to be all knowledgeable, right? Like the, the humanity, we can’t escape the central part of gravity, which is God telling us the truth about who he is and who we are.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And somehow we lose that understanding. We want scripture to bend to our desires. And that’s what you see in the culture-
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: … we don’t conform to it. But lemme tell you, everybody God will get you and He will require you to conform to it because He loves you. Um, not because he wants to shame you or anything like that. Um, I’m looking forward to this. I read the book. I looked at all, all the prep this morning, Jean and I were going over it. It was probably one of the more exciting moments to read prep this morning. The content is really good.
John: Yeah. Yeah. And Gary Thomas resonates with our audience. He’s been here so many times, and, uh, he’s a great friend to Focus on the Family. He’s a speaker, and a writer, and a pastor. Uh, his books on spiritual topics, the Christian life, marriage, um, have done phenomenally well. And he’s on the pastoral teaching team at Cherry Hills Community Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. And, uh, today, we’re gonna be covering something that, uh, came out just recently, The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God. Learn more about Gary and this book at our website, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Gary, welcome back to Focus.
Gary: Thank you guys.
Jim: I need to say, neighbor, you’re just-
Gary: (laughs). Yeah.
Jim: … up the road from us now.
Gary: Absolutely.
Jim: We should have you here every day.
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) Um, let me first say, thank you so much. What I said in that setup is so true. As I went through the material, I was like, this is good stuff. And, uh, you know, as an author, you know when you hit it, you know when maybe you just got over the line. But I hope you feel good about this book because it, everybody should get a copy, in my opinion. Uh, let’s kick it off with this, uh, issue of spiritualized creeping into our theology, our practice.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: You know, I think Dr. Dobson used to say something about kudzu and how it would cut into our life.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: But I was in the South not long ago. I saw that kudzu plant. It’s a foreign plant, I think, from Japan, but it’s invasive, and it just grows up those trees, chokes ’em off, and kills ’em. And, you know, the Lord does use nature to teach his spiritual truth. And I think that kudzu is an example of that and how it kills the life of a Christian and of any human who doesn’t pursue Him.
Gary: I, I think Paul warns us of kudzu in Romans 12:2, when he says, “Do not conform to the pattern of this world.” In the Greek, that word is eon. It could also be translated age, which I, I think both fit what Paul is saying. This world, this age, this generation has an agenda.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: You will believe this, you will think this, you will value this, you’ll prioritize this. And Paul says, if we don’t push back with the truth, as you were saying, we’re just gonna be fit into the mold of this world. We’re gonna become exactly like the citizens of the world, the world wants us to become. But Paul says, “We push back by being transformed by the renewing of our minds.”
Jim: Mm.
Gary: We can’t afford to be light with the truth. If we believe a lie, we practice a lie. If we practice a lie, we lose our life.
Jim: Yeah. That is so well said. That reminds me of Truth Rising, the documentary we released in-
Gary: No.
Jim: Have you seen it?
Gary: I, yeah. I was, was watching-
Jim: You don’t have to, don’t lie now. (laughs)
Gary: No, I, I was literally watching it this morning. Uh, great to see Os Guinness again.
Jim: Yeah, he’s, he’s so good.
Gary: Um, Neil Ferguson, I mean, always Focus gets the best of the best. And what struck me is that what he’s trying to do for culture, I think in The Life You Were Reborn to Live, I was praying I could do for the soul.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: Those lies that frustrate us. And, and I found Satan as a father of lies, will try to sew these lies into our soul to create bitterness and frustration with God. He, he doesn’t care what lie we believe. He cares that the lie will separate us from seeing God’s goodness-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … God’s grace, God’s mercy, God’s truth. That God’s way is best. And and we can be terrified by these lies.
Jim: Hmm.
Gary: My, you know, I’m unashamedly infatuated with my two grandchildren. Uh, I’m just beside-
Jim: I was gonna ask you about the granddaughter story here.
Gary: When, when I’m with them, time stops. I, I, it’s the one time I don’t care what else is happening in the world. And I was walking with her, she’s six now. She was three at the time of this. And a fire truck went by, and the siren is blaring. And, and she just scrunches up her face and closes, and she just like, really is screaming out in terror. And I thought, wow. Well, she’s got little ears. It’s really strong. It’s loud. It could be scary. Two days later, we’re with her still on that time, spending time with them, and she does the same thing. And I, like, what’s going? And then way off in the distance, now I have older ears, right? I could barely hear this siren, that, man, she must have been traumatized by this. This is really surprising to me that it would be so strong.
Three months later, we’re visiting again. She’s got great parents. I mean, I just am in awe the way they talk her through everything, the way they train her. And so I heard the siren, I saw the lights, I turn and panic toward little Anna. Oh no, what’s gonna happen? And she looks at me so chill, almost with disdain. “It’s okay, Papo. They’re just going to help someone.”
Jim: Yeah, that’s good.
Gary: And, and what her parents had told her is, rather than this threaten you, you should feel good that you live in a world where if you ever need help, people will move out of the way and people will hurry to get to you to help you. And so what was a threat to her became a form of assurance. And it’s, that’s, that’s why believing a lie has a consequence. It, it creates fear, it creates unrest. It can obliterate our relationship with God. We have to unmask the lies and replace them with the truth.
Jim: It’s so good. You know, uh, Ray Vander Laan affectionately called RVL here at Focus, he’s done, you know, so much content with us, that the world may know, RVL Discipleship series, which are great things. He’s a Jewish scholar. He interprets the scripture from a Jewish standpoint for Chr- Western Christians particularly. But one of the things he talks a lot about throughout the series is that when sin entered the world, chaos entered the world.
Gary: Yes. Yes.
Jim: Jesus came to bring God’s shalom, God’s peace, into this sin chaotic world. And I think the question outta the book that I had was, what are the consequences of believing what the world tells you and keeps you spinning in that cycle of chaos?
Gary: I, I don’t think we stress peace enough as Christians. It’s one of the best things about being a believer.
Jim: I agree.
Gary: And if you look throughout all of the Old Testament, it promises peace. Isaiah says, “The Messiah will come, he will be the prince of peace.” The Psalmist says 29:11, “The Lord blesses his people with peace.” When Jesus was born, what did the angels say to the shepherds? Peace on earth, goodwill toward men. Jesus came to bring peace. What hit me, Jim, 19 of 21 New Testament letters begin or end with an exhortation or a blessing of peace.
Jim: Peace be upon you. Yeah.
Gary: That the early church was obsessed with peace. Everybody wants peace. And that’s why I think it’s just, it’s even for evangelism. We, we talk a lot about salvation. I, I, I think we should. But if people don’t believe in the afterlife, it’s like when somebody says, “Hey, Gary, here’s the best of a Michael Bolton album.” I’m like, “Well, I don’t want the best of Michael Bolton.” (laughs) I mean, his best isn’t something I’m interested in.
Jim: Well, I’m so glad you said that. (laughs)
Gary: (laughs) Um, and, and so, but everybody wants peace. And when we can display peace in a chaotic world, it shows a supernatural presence because Biblical peace is relational, not situational.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: I, I was so struck, I, I really borrow, um, from Henry Drummond in this, when he wrote a fabulous essay on peace, that it’s often pursuing peace, that we chase it away because we think peace is situational. If I fix this, I have a certain amount of money set aside. If I like my job, if I like who’s in charge of the government, if everybody’s good with me, if all of my children love me and they’re following the Lord, then I’ll finally have peace. And he points out that will never all be true. And Jesus had really none of those. He didn’t have the money. He had enemies. He had a death sentence. He had fair-weather friends who deserted him.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: And yet he personified peace. And learning what it means, that peace is relational instead of situational means every listener, everybody watching us online right now could begin to experience peace today. You don’t have to fix everything in your life.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: When you recognize that Jesus is a source of peace.
Jim: And in that context, you had a story, I think about a young surgeon, uh, who demonstrated this peace.
Gary: Yeah. Uh, I’ll call him Vihon. He was a successful orthopedic surgeon. His career was taking off, he’s teaching internationally, was brilliant, was asked to operate on an elbow that was really messed up, and he fixed it. But it was one of those things where it was so messed up, it wasn’t gonna be perfect. And a very astute lawyer sued him for malpractice for $50,000. Now, those who are in the know, realize that’s a, just pay me and I’ll go away.
Jim: Correct.
Gary: Because any insurance company’s gonna know it’s gonna cost us 10 times that much-
Jim: Right.
Gary: … to do it. But the surgeon is horrified. I’ve, I’ve got this growing reputation, I’m gonna have a malpractice lawsuit that is settled. And he said, for two years, he heard about it just going into surgery and he’s asking for God’s help. No, I need to focus on this next surgery. But afterwards, he said, “Gary, I lost two years of sleep. I lived with anxiety. I alternated between anger and a sense of dis-ease. Am I gonna be fired from teaching? Am I gonna lose my practice? My reputation’s gonna be shattered.” And he lived that for two years until finally they said, no, we’re gonna settle. And I looked at him, this had been like eight years prior, so the lawsuit had been 10 years before. I said, “So Vihon, looking back now on a scale of 1 to 100, 100 being it was devastating to your career, and 1 is it wasn’t even a blip, how much did it impact you? And he said, “Zero-
Jim: Mm.
Gary: … but I lost two years with dis-ease, worry, and anger.” And that’s what I mean about you can have peace even when the situation’s bad, we lose so much when we give into the situation. The analogy I give, I said this in a sermon one time, imagine you’re in the midst of a hurricane and the roof is literally lifting off your house and the walls are flying, furniture’s going around. Wow. I didn’t know that cows could fly, but I just saw one, you know?
Jim: Right.
Gary: That kind of storm. But Jesus enters the room, and maybe you picture him coming up to you and taking your cheeks in his hands and looking you in the eyes. I like to picture a 10-foot-tall Jesus just-
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: … encircling me from behind holding me on. Just as a guy, if Jesus has his arms around me while the house is flying apart, I’m opening my eyes to watch the show. (laughs)
Jim: Right.
Gary: Wow. Whoa, Jesus, how are you gonna fix this? How are you gonna do that? And I realize that a lack of peace is insulting Jesus. It’s the opposite of worshiping Jesus. If I know that Jesus has me, I could literally lose everything in this world, and I’m still one of the richest men ever. Because in Jesus, I have everything beyond this world.
Jim: And you know, for some people, Gary, that’s gonna be hard to understand because they’re living in such a pit, such a valley right now that, “Oh, yeah. Okay, good. So you found a way out and you’re happy. I’m still down here in darkness.” And I, I think, you know, how do we help that person that can’t see it yet-
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: … or is in the, the emotional mire of the moment-
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: … and they resent it, or they’re bitter, or angry at God?
Gary: Henry Drummond has a recipe. He says, “Peace has a recipe just like baking a cake.” And we don’t have time to get into all of the recipe for that, but one of the things he says that most upsets our peace, if we wanna get back, is that if we embrace, when Jesus said, “I am gentle and humble in heart.” It’s the humility of Jesus and the gentleness of Jesus. If I embrace Jesus’s humility and I’m mocked at by the world, or even humiliated by the world, if I don’t have pride, if I don’t get my ego from the world’s affirmation, I, I don’t care how the world views me. If I’m gentle, I’m not fighting others. And just think about how fighting online, fighting at church, getting involved in these useless family squabbles, what destroys our peace more than that?
Jim: Yeah.
John: That’s Gary Thomas, and he’s our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we’re, uh, talking about his book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God. Uh, you can get a copy of this book at our website, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Gary, in the book, you make a distinction between Disneyland and the jungle.
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: Uh, you’re not confused about the jungle ride at Disneyland.
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) What are you trying to get at there?
Gary: This is one of my-
Jim: And be careful. (laughs)
Gary: … uh, favorite chapters about how we often wanna control everything in our lives. And that destroys spiritual adventure. Jesus describes a Christian life this way, John 3:8, “The wind blows where it pleases and you hear it sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes,” this is the key, “so it is with everyone born of the spirit.” The Christian life fully lived is a life where we are invited into spiritual adventure. It’s the opposite of Disneyland. Um, I, I got to go there with my grandkids. Um, and It’s a Small World After All, they were the same dolls, there was the same song that I heard 30 years ago and has been plaguing me ever since.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: Once you go in, it never lets you go. But life with Jesus is more like living in a jungle. You don’t know what’s around the next corner. You don’t know what’s gonna happen. But we need that excitement, Jim. I- instead of trying to control our life, it’s recognizing that God is supernatural and that God is active and through his Holy Spirit, he wants to use us in ways we could never dream of being used.
Jim: Mm-hmm. It takes, uh, a fearlessness though, to be able to live that way.
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: So he also says, don’t have a spirit of fear. Right?
Gary: Right.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: Well, and here’s the thing. Who controls my life better? If I’m in control or God’s in control? God’s gonna do a better job. And most of Jesus’s ministry looked spontaneous. He didn’t get with His disciples and say, “Okay, at 10:00 there’s gonna be the woman at the well. We’re gonna have an insight with the Pharisees at 2:00 PM. I’m gonna heal somebody from demons before dinner, and then we’ll go out and have a barbecue.” It, it was, He had the power of God within Him and ministered that way. And here’s what I think is so important for families. I’m seeing marriages, which is what I usually write and talk about, starved from a lack of spiritual adventure.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: If husband and wife will join together and stop focusing on why can’t she do this, why won’t he do that? Instead get together and say, “What can we do for God? What gifts, what experiences has God given us?” And then pray for each other, Lord open up the door, like you and Jean did. Well, you know what? Maybe we can bring some foster kids into our home. Well, that’s-
Jim: Well, that’ll be exciting. (laughs)
Gary: … that’s gonna be chaotic and exciting. But it’s like praying for your husband, praying for your wife, and they go off to work. You think you’re gonna have coffee, you think you’re gonna have an interview. What if God wants to use that for supernatural ends, to open up somebody to the faith? And then it’s also great for parenting. We so focus as parents, “Kids, don’t look at this, don’t do that. Don’t say that. Don’t drink this, smoke that, or watch that.” Instead of, we get together with our kids and say, “You know what? You’re a Christian. God’s given you his Holy Spirit. Open your eyes and ears to how he might want to use you today.”
Jim: Mm.
Gary: Maybe there’s a teacher everybody’s gossiping about, you could tell she’s having a terrible day. Maybe you’re the one that goes up and encourages her. And then at the end of the day, “Hey, did anybody have any of those God moments today-
Jim: Yeah. That’s good.
Gary: … where God really used them?” Because Jim, if if kids learn what it is to be used by God, I believe they’re gonna be ruined to the world.
Jim: It’s so good. Uh, you know, one of the things you write about in the book on marriage is not to make that an idol in essence. And I have heard that before. You know, as I’ve talked to friends who have constructive criticism for me about-
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: … uh, you know, Focus on the Family making marriage or parenting an idol. I get that. But we’re also called as a ministry to focus on those issues.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: So if we’ve communicated that this is number one in people’s place, your marriage or your family, it’s not, it’s hopefully number two, God being at the core and the foundation of all. Uh, but we are given to a marriage in parenting ministry (laughs). So we talk a lot about those things.
Gary: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But in that context, um, what is your warning for us to be careful about family first as a theme?
Gary: Yes. Look, I, I’ve gotta say, Jim, and I’ve said this before, how indebted I am to Focus on the Family. I think to focus on my marriage, to focus on my kids, I, I will be eternally indebted to this ministry that reminds me to put them first with the stories of people who didn’t. And I said, I don’t want to do that. And the rewards of people who said they did, and I thought that’s what I want. I talked to a pastor yesterday who ruined his marriage by putting his ministry first. He lost his family.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: So it, I think we do wanna say, “Hey, it’s primary to focus on your family, but we will love our family best when we love God first.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: And I had to grapple with a few verses of Jesus. Well, not just a few, but many teachings and passages where Jesus warns that sometimes faith in him might divide a family. He said in Matthew 10:21-22, “Brother will betray brother to death, a father his child, children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. You’ll be hated by everyone because of me. But the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.” So Jesus isn’t saying, if you don’t love your family well, they’re gonna hate you. He says, if you love Me well, they might hate you. Which Jim, this is the hard truth. All of us have to be like Abraham that put our children on the altar.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: Not physically where we’re going to sacrifice them, but spiritually. I- if we don’t do this, what I’ve seen is that I, I’ve seen parents and grandparents compromise the truth and their faith because they don’t wanna lose access to their children or grandchildren. Um, and that’s where we have to be bold and say we love our families best by speaking the truth, going back to what we said earlier-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … and putting Jesus first. Um, and so I, I don’t think we have to pit the two against each other. Families are miraculous. Like I said, I’m besotted with my children and grandchildren. I love my wife as dearly as I ever have. 41 years into our marriage. But our heart will break if we don’t realize we can’t put our hope, our joy, and our fulfillment in fallen people. It’s in God’s spiritual family. And so, the couple I know that lost their only child, they’ve adopted a lot of spiritual children. They’re so active with so many people.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: Women who have been abandoned by their husband, um, have found so great friendships in the church. Parents whose children have estranged themselves from them, which is a growing problem-
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: … in the church, I’m seeing as a pastor. Giving themselves to become spiritual mothers and fathers in the church. God doesn’t promise us that we’ll have perfect earthly families. He promises us that through Christ, He will adopt us into His family.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: And that’s the grace and hope that we have.
Jim: It is. And that’s kind of the family context. You also talk about cultivating community.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: And in that way, you have a story of-
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: … a older gentleman who goes to Starbucks and turns his chair out. I’ll put that in air quotes-
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: … “turns his chair out.” Um-
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: … who is he and what is he doing?
Gary: Well-
Jim: And is he accomplishing anything?
Gary: Yeah. I, I’m an introvert. And when my parents lived in Sumner, Washington, before they moved in with my sister, I would be visiting from Texas. I lived in Texas back then, and I would be the first one to open up Starbucks. They opened up at 4:00 AM. I’m a morning person. I was already on Central Time. And I would just go there to get some caffeine and to do some work. And I loved this corner, ’cause I could escape from the world. My back is to the whole restaurant. I could plug in my laptop, nobody’s gonna bother me. Everybody could come and go. Well, they changed the layout. You know how Starbucks-
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: … does that sometimes. So I had to be out front and I just, I didn’t like that. But I was able to look at the restaurant and there was this older guy coming in, I’d say probably mid-80s. He was the exact opposite of me. He would come in every time, ’cause I would do this several days in a row and rearrange the furniture.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: So if you came in, you went by him. And if you came out, you went by him. And every barista got a hug, or a kiss, or a hello. Every customer was greeted. I walked by, he held up his hand and he literally had written the code for the bathroom on his hand.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: He just, and I just thought-
Jim: Well, he is in his 80s. (laughs)
Gary: Yes. So I, I thought, you know, I go in and I turn my chair in to escape from the world. He turns his chair out to welcome the world in. And I said, you know what? I need to be more like him. In this chapter, I realized how relational our faith is.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: And this relational component I think is getting lost more and more. And I just wanna say, I think you’re gonna be a better spouse if you have friendships outside of your marriage. I think you’re gonna be a better parent if you develop friendships outside of your own kids. Um, it’s just, we learn from each other, we encourage each other, we build each other up. And it’s great to be building our family, but I think we’ll build an even better family when we’re inviting others into our life.
Jim: Hey, Gary, this was great. Uh, I wanna say thank you for all that research. You do such a beautiful job. Your book on marriage is one of the best books I’ve ever read. So thank you for the skill you bring to crafting a book. I mean, it’s, to make it hit home with people is really a gift that the Lord’s given you. And this book doesn’t miss the mark. It’s equally forceful, equally encouraging to lift us up to something bigger and better and more godly. And so, if you can, let’s stick around. We’ll pick up on day two and continue the discussion. Can we do that? And then, uh, tomorrow we’re gonna dismantle more of the lies that Gary’s pointing out. And we hope to give, uh, our listeners that freedom in Christ.
And so, I want to ask you to come back next time and enjoy it. I wanna encourage you to get a copy of Gary’s terrific book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live. And it really talks again about enlisting into service for Christ. And we’d love to get this into your hands. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Another great resource is our Truth Rising documentary. We just released it in September. It’s free on our website along with the documentary, there’s a four-part study that John Stonestreet from the Colson Center has written for us. If you’re interested in learning more about how you can combat the lives of secular culture and get engaged, we’ve got you covered. You can find the details on our website truthrising.com, or watch the entire documentary for free on YouTube. Let me just say, our generous donors are the fuel that keeps the ministry engine running here at Focus on the Family.
We are listener- and donor-supported. We’re working every day to equip parents, strengthen marriages, save pre-born babies, and help their mothers and share the hope of Jesus Christ. Last year alone, Focus on the Family had the privilege to be part of 292,000 decisions for Christ. That’s kingdom impact. But we’re counting on your generous donations to keep that engine running. And when you give to Focus, we’re delivering that hope and joy to people like Kirsten from Indiana who wrote to tell us this. “We recently increased our pledge donation to $100 a month. My husband and I had been married for five years and we have three children and are expecting twins.”
John: Wow. (laughs)
Jim: Tip into Focus on the Family-
John: A full …
Jim: … ’cause you’re certainly creating a family.
John: (laughs)
Jim: She goes on to site. “My husband and I didn’t come from stable families. And the daily broadcast, along with the resource suggestions have been a lifesaver. Because of your ministry, our marriage has benefited, and we are learning the parenting skills that were never modeled to us. And I can only say, praise God.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Because that’s who deserves the, uh, glory for that.
John: That’s really encouraging to hear. And you can continue to provide much needed support to moms like Kirsten when you partner with Focus on the Family. So please, donate today. And right now through a special match opportunity, your year-end gift will be doubled dollar-for-dollar. God’s gonna use your gift to bring healing and redemption and hope to twice the families. So learn more about Truth Rising, donate, and get a copy of this excellent book from Gary Thomas, The Life You Were Reborn to Live, all when you call 800, the Letter A and the word family. That’s 800-232-6459 or stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Gary Thomas and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
DAY TWO:
Gary Thomas: I’ve seen parents and grandparents compromise the truth and their faith because they don’t wanna lose access to their children or grandchildren. Um, and that’s where we have to be bold and say we love our families best by speaking the truth-
John Fuller: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … and putting Jesus first.
John: What are some of the lies that rob you of your intimacy with God? We’re gonna be exploring that topic today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, you know, one thing that I say to the team here at Focus on the Family, the leadership team, you know, we’ve got to know truth as best as we can in order to manage as well as we can. And that’s one of the great challenges of leadership. But it’s true for everybody, what is true and what’s a lie. And, you know, we glom onto little lies. I remember the one, you remember, if you ate your gum, it would be in your stomach seven years.
John: Oh, yes. (laugh)
Jim: I think that’s a lie, but I’m still not sure, (laughs) you know.
John: (laughs) I don’t want to try.
Jim: And that’s kind of a fun one. But there are other lies that are far more harmful. You know, the Bible says that Satan is the father of lies, John 8:44. It started in the garden with Genesis 3, and it didn’t stop there. I mean, it, even if you look at some of the cultural stuff going on now, it’s about me. I want to be all knowledgeable, right? Like the, the humanity, we can’t escape the central part of gravity, which is God telling us the truth about who he is and who we are.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And somehow we lose that understanding. We want scripture to bend to our desires. And that’s what you see in the culture-
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: … we don’t conform to it. But lemme tell you, everybody God will get you and He will require you to conform to it because He loves you. Um, not because he wants to shame you or anything like that. Um, I’m looking forward to this. I read the book. I looked at all, all the prep this morning, Jean and I were going over it. It was probably one of the more exciting moments to read prep this morning. The content is really good.
John: Yeah. Yeah. And Gary Thomas resonates with our audience. He’s been here so many times, and, uh, he’s a great friend to Focus on the Family. He’s a speaker, and a writer, and a pastor. Uh, his books on spiritual topics, the Christian life, marriage, um, have done phenomenally well. And he’s on the pastoral teaching team at Cherry Hills Community Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. And, uh, today, we’re gonna be covering something that, uh, came out just recently, The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God. Learn more about Gary and this book at our website, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Gary, welcome back to Focus.
Gary: Thank you guys.
Jim: I need to say, neighbor, you’re just-
Gary: (laughs). Yeah.
Jim: … up the road from us now.
Gary: Absolutely.
Jim: We should have you here every day.
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) Um, let me first say, thank you so much. What I said in that setup is so true. As I went through the material, I was like, this is good stuff. And, uh, you know, as an author, you know when you hit it, you know when maybe you just got over the line. But I hope you feel good about this book because it, everybody should get a copy, in my opinion. Uh, let’s kick it off with this, uh, issue of spiritualized creeping into our theology, our practice.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: You know, I think Dr. Dobson used to say something about kudzu and how it would cut into our life.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: But I was in the South not long ago. I saw that kudzu plant. It’s a foreign plant, I think, from Japan, but it’s invasive, and it just grows up those trees, chokes ’em off, and kills ’em. And, you know, the Lord does use nature to teach his spiritual truth. And I think that kudzu is an example of that and how it kills the life of a Christian and of any human who doesn’t pursue Him.
Gary: I, I think Paul warns us of kudzu in Romans 12:2, when he says, “Do not conform to the pattern of this world.” In the Greek, that word is eon. It could also be translated age, which I, I think both fit what Paul is saying. This world, this age, this generation has an agenda.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: You will believe this, you will think this, you will value this, you’ll prioritize this. And Paul says, if we don’t push back with the truth, as you were saying, we’re just gonna be fit into the mold of this world. We’re gonna become exactly like the citizens of the world, the world wants us to become. But Paul says, “We push back by being transformed by the renewing of our minds.”
Jim: Mm.
Gary: We can’t afford to be light with the truth. If we believe a lie, we practice a lie. If we practice a lie, we lose our life.
Jim: Yeah. That is so well said. That reminds me of Truth Rising, the documentary we released in-
Gary: No.
Jim: Have you seen it?
Gary: I, yeah. I was, was watching-
Jim: You don’t have to, don’t lie now. (laughs)
Gary: No, I, I was literally watching it this morning. Uh, great to see Os Guinness again.
Jim: Yeah, he’s, he’s so good.
Gary: Um, Neil Ferguson, I mean, always Focus gets the best of the best. And what struck me is that what he’s trying to do for culture, I think in The Life You Were Reborn to Live, I was praying I could do for the soul.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: Those lies that frustrate us. And, and I found Satan as a father of lies, will try to sew these lies into our soul to create bitterness and frustration with God. He, he doesn’t care what lie we believe. He cares that the lie will separate us from seeing God’s goodness-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … God’s grace, God’s mercy, God’s truth. That God’s way is best. And and we can be terrified by these lies.
Jim: Hmm.
Gary: My, you know, I’m unashamedly infatuated with my two grandchildren. Uh, I’m just beside-
Jim: I was gonna ask you about the granddaughter story here.
Gary: When, when I’m with them, time stops. I, I, it’s the one time I don’t care what else is happening in the world. And I was walking with her, she’s six now. She was three at the time of this. And a fire truck went by, and the siren is blaring. And, and she just scrunches up her face and closes, and she just like, really is screaming out in terror. And I thought, wow. Well, she’s got little ears. It’s really strong. It’s loud. It could be scary. Two days later, we’re with her still on that time, spending time with them, and she does the same thing. And I, like, what’s going? And then way off in the distance, now I have older ears, right? I could barely hear this siren, that, man, she must have been traumatized by this. This is really surprising to me that it would be so strong.
Three months later, we’re visiting again. She’s got great parents. I mean, I just am in awe the way they talk her through everything, the way they train her. And so I heard the siren, I saw the lights, I turn and panic toward little Anna. Oh no, what’s gonna happen? And she looks at me so chill, almost with disdain. “It’s okay, Papo. They’re just going to help someone.”
Jim: Yeah, that’s good.
Gary: And, and what her parents had told her is, rather than this threaten you, you should feel good that you live in a world where if you ever need help, people will move out of the way and people will hurry to get to you to help you. And so what was a threat to her became a form of assurance. And it’s, that’s, that’s why believing a lie has a consequence. It, it creates fear, it creates unrest. It can obliterate our relationship with God. We have to unmask the lies and replace them with the truth.
Jim: It’s so good. You know, uh, Ray Vander Laan affectionately called RVL here at Focus, he’s done, you know, so much content with us, that the world may know, RVL Discipleship series, which are great things. He’s a Jewish scholar. He interprets the scripture from a Jewish standpoint for Chr- Western Christians particularly. But one of the things he talks a lot about throughout the series is that when sin entered the world, chaos entered the world.
Gary: Yes. Yes.
Jim: Jesus came to bring God’s shalom, God’s peace, into this sin chaotic world. And I think the question outta the book that I had was, what are the consequences of believing what the world tells you and keeps you spinning in that cycle of chaos?
Gary: I, I don’t think we stress peace enough as Christians. It’s one of the best things about being a believer.
Jim: I agree.
Gary: And if you look throughout all of the Old Testament, it promises peace. Isaiah says, “The Messiah will come, he will be the prince of peace.” The Psalmist says 29:11, “The Lord blesses his people with peace.” When Jesus was born, what did the angels say to the shepherds? Peace on earth, goodwill toward men. Jesus came to bring peace. What hit me, Jim, 19 of 21 New Testament letters begin or end with an exhortation or a blessing of peace.
Jim: Peace be upon you. Yeah.
Gary: That the early church was obsessed with peace. Everybody wants peace. And that’s why I think it’s just, it’s even for evangelism. We, we talk a lot about salvation. I, I, I think we should. But if people don’t believe in the afterlife, it’s like when somebody says, “Hey, Gary, here’s the best of a Michael Bolton album.” I’m like, “Well, I don’t want the best of Michael Bolton.” (laughs) I mean, his best isn’t something I’m interested in.
Jim: Well, I’m so glad you said that. (laughs)
Gary: (laughs) Um, and, and so, but everybody wants peace. And when we can display peace in a chaotic world, it shows a supernatural presence because Biblical peace is relational, not situational.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: I, I was so struck, I, I really borrow, um, from Henry Drummond in this, when he wrote a fabulous essay on peace, that it’s often pursuing peace, that we chase it away because we think peace is situational. If I fix this, I have a certain amount of money set aside. If I like my job, if I like who’s in charge of the government, if everybody’s good with me, if all of my children love me and they’re following the Lord, then I’ll finally have peace. And he points out that will never all be true. And Jesus had really none of those. He didn’t have the money. He had enemies. He had a death sentence. He had fair-weather friends who deserted him.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: And yet he personified peace. And learning what it means, that peace is relational instead of situational means every listener, everybody watching us online right now could begin to experience peace today. You don’t have to fix everything in your life.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: When you recognize that Jesus is a source of peace.
Jim: And in that context, you had a story, I think about a young surgeon, uh, who demonstrated this peace.
Gary: Yeah. Uh, I’ll call him Vihon. He was a successful orthopedic surgeon. His career was taking off, he’s teaching internationally, was brilliant, was asked to operate on an elbow that was really messed up, and he fixed it. But it was one of those things where it was so messed up, it wasn’t gonna be perfect. And a very astute lawyer sued him for malpractice for $50,000. Now, those who are in the know, realize that’s a, just pay me and I’ll go away.
Jim: Correct.
Gary: Because any insurance company’s gonna know it’s gonna cost us 10 times that much-
Jim: Right.
Gary: … to do it. But the surgeon is horrified. I’ve, I’ve got this growing reputation, I’m gonna have a malpractice lawsuit that is settled. And he said, for two years, he heard about it just going into surgery and he’s asking for God’s help. No, I need to focus on this next surgery. But afterwards, he said, “Gary, I lost two years of sleep. I lived with anxiety. I alternated between anger and a sense of dis-ease. Am I gonna be fired from teaching? Am I gonna lose my practice? My reputation’s gonna be shattered.” And he lived that for two years until finally they said, no, we’re gonna settle. And I looked at him, this had been like eight years prior, so the lawsuit had been 10 years before. I said, “So Vihon, looking back now on a scale of 1 to 100, 100 being it was devastating to your career, and 1 is it wasn’t even a blip, how much did it impact you? And he said, “Zero-
Jim: Mm.
Gary: … but I lost two years with dis-ease, worry, and anger.” And that’s what I mean about you can have peace even when the situation’s bad, we lose so much when we give into the situation. The analogy I give, I said this in a sermon one time, imagine you’re in the midst of a hurricane and the roof is literally lifting off your house and the walls are flying, furniture’s going around. Wow. I didn’t know that cows could fly, but I just saw one, you know?
Jim: Right.
Gary: That kind of storm. But Jesus enters the room, and maybe you picture him coming up to you and taking your cheeks in his hands and looking you in the eyes. I like to picture a 10-foot-tall Jesus just-
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: … encircling me from behind holding me on. Just as a guy, if Jesus has his arms around me while the house is flying apart, I’m opening my eyes to watch the show. (laughs)
Jim: Right.
Gary: Wow. Whoa, Jesus, how are you gonna fix this? How are you gonna do that? And I realize that a lack of peace is insulting Jesus. It’s the opposite of worshiping Jesus. If I know that Jesus has me, I could literally lose everything in this world, and I’m still one of the richest men ever. Because in Jesus, I have everything beyond this world.
Jim: And you know, for some people, Gary, that’s gonna be hard to understand because they’re living in such a pit, such a valley right now that, “Oh, yeah. Okay, good. So you found a way out and you’re happy. I’m still down here in darkness.” And I, I think, you know, how do we help that person that can’t see it yet-
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: … or is in the, the emotional mire of the moment-
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: … and they resent it, or they’re bitter, or angry at God?
Gary: Henry Drummond has a recipe. He says, “Peace has a recipe just like baking a cake.” And we don’t have time to get into all of the recipe for that, but one of the things he says that most upsets our peace, if we wanna get back, is that if we embrace, when Jesus said, “I am gentle and humble in heart.” It’s the humility of Jesus and the gentleness of Jesus. If I embrace Jesus’s humility and I’m mocked at by the world, or even humiliated by the world, if I don’t have pride, if I don’t get my ego from the world’s affirmation, I, I don’t care how the world views me. If I’m gentle, I’m not fighting others. And just think about how fighting online, fighting at church, getting involved in these useless family squabbles, what destroys our peace more than that?
Jim: Yeah.
John: That’s Gary Thomas, and he’s our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we’re, uh, talking about his book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling 12 Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God. Uh, you can get a copy of this book at our website, and that’s FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Gary, in the book, you make a distinction between Disneyland and the jungle.
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: Uh, you’re not confused about the jungle ride at Disneyland.
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) What are you trying to get at there?
Gary: This is one of my-
Jim: And be careful. (laughs)
Gary: … uh, favorite chapters about how we often wanna control everything in our lives. And that destroys spiritual adventure. Jesus describes a Christian life this way, John 3:8, “The wind blows where it pleases and you hear it sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes,” this is the key, “so it is with everyone born of the spirit.” The Christian life fully lived is a life where we are invited into spiritual adventure. It’s the opposite of Disneyland. Um, I, I got to go there with my grandkids. Um, and It’s a Small World After All, they were the same dolls, there was the same song that I heard 30 years ago and has been plaguing me ever since.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: Once you go in, it never lets you go. But life with Jesus is more like living in a jungle. You don’t know what’s around the next corner. You don’t know what’s gonna happen. But we need that excitement, Jim. I- instead of trying to control our life, it’s recognizing that God is supernatural and that God is active and through his Holy Spirit, he wants to use us in ways we could never dream of being used.
Jim: Mm-hmm. It takes, uh, a fearlessness though, to be able to live that way.
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: So he also says, don’t have a spirit of fear. Right?
Gary: Right.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: Well, and here’s the thing. Who controls my life better? If I’m in control or God’s in control? God’s gonna do a better job. And most of Jesus’s ministry looked spontaneous. He didn’t get with His disciples and say, “Okay, at 10:00 there’s gonna be the woman at the well. We’re gonna have an insight with the Pharisees at 2:00 PM. I’m gonna heal somebody from demons before dinner, and then we’ll go out and have a barbecue.” It, it was, He had the power of God within Him and ministered that way. And here’s what I think is so important for families. I’m seeing marriages, which is what I usually write and talk about, starved from a lack of spiritual adventure.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: If husband and wife will join together and stop focusing on why can’t she do this, why won’t he do that? Instead get together and say, “What can we do for God? What gifts, what experiences has God given us?” And then pray for each other, Lord open up the door, like you and Jean did. Well, you know what? Maybe we can bring some foster kids into our home. Well, that’s-
Jim: Well, that’ll be exciting. (laughs)
Gary: … that’s gonna be chaotic and exciting. But it’s like praying for your husband, praying for your wife, and they go off to work. You think you’re gonna have coffee, you think you’re gonna have an interview. What if God wants to use that for supernatural ends, to open up somebody to the faith? And then it’s also great for parenting. We so focus as parents, “Kids, don’t look at this, don’t do that. Don’t say that. Don’t drink this, smoke that, or watch that.” Instead of, we get together with our kids and say, “You know what? You’re a Christian. God’s given you his Holy Spirit. Open your eyes and ears to how he might want to use you today.”
Jim: Mm.
Gary: Maybe there’s a teacher everybody’s gossiping about, you could tell she’s having a terrible day. Maybe you’re the one that goes up and encourages her. And then at the end of the day, “Hey, did anybody have any of those God moments today-
Jim: Yeah. That’s good.
Gary: … where God really used them?” Because Jim, if if kids learn what it is to be used by God, I believe they’re gonna be ruined to the world.
Jim: It’s so good. Uh, you know, one of the things you write about in the book on marriage is not to make that an idol in essence. And I have heard that before. You know, as I’ve talked to friends who have constructive criticism for me about-
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: … uh, you know, Focus on the Family making marriage or parenting an idol. I get that. But we’re also called as a ministry to focus on those issues.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: So if we’ve communicated that this is number one in people’s place, your marriage or your family, it’s not, it’s hopefully number two, God being at the core and the foundation of all. Uh, but we are given to a marriage in parenting ministry (laughs). So we talk a lot about those things.
Gary: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But in that context, um, what is your warning for us to be careful about family first as a theme?
Gary: Yes. Look, I, I’ve gotta say, Jim, and I’ve said this before, how indebted I am to Focus on the Family. I think to focus on my marriage, to focus on my kids, I, I will be eternally indebted to this ministry that reminds me to put them first with the stories of people who didn’t. And I said, I don’t want to do that. And the rewards of people who said they did, and I thought that’s what I want. I talked to a pastor yesterday who ruined his marriage by putting his ministry first. He lost his family.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: So it, I think we do wanna say, “Hey, it’s primary to focus on your family, but we will love our family best when we love God first.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: And I had to grapple with a few verses of Jesus. Well, not just a few, but many teachings and passages where Jesus warns that sometimes faith in him might divide a family. He said in Matthew 10:21-22, “Brother will betray brother to death, a father his child, children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. You’ll be hated by everyone because of me. But the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.” So Jesus isn’t saying, if you don’t love your family well, they’re gonna hate you. He says, if you love Me well, they might hate you. Which Jim, this is the hard truth. All of us have to be like Abraham that put our children on the altar.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: Not physically where we’re going to sacrifice them, but spiritually. I- if we don’t do this, what I’ve seen is that I, I’ve seen parents and grandparents compromise the truth and their faith because they don’t wanna lose access to their children or grandchildren. Um, and that’s where we have to be bold and say we love our families best by speaking the truth, going back to what we said earlier-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: … and putting Jesus first. Um, and so I, I don’t think we have to pit the two against each other. Families are miraculous. Like I said, I’m besotted with my children and grandchildren. I love my wife as dearly as I ever have. 41 years into our marriage. But our heart will break if we don’t realize we can’t put our hope, our joy, and our fulfillment in fallen people. It’s in God’s spiritual family. And so, the couple I know that lost their only child, they’ve adopted a lot of spiritual children. They’re so active with so many people.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: Women who have been abandoned by their husband, um, have found so great friendships in the church. Parents whose children have estranged themselves from them, which is a growing problem-
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: … in the church, I’m seeing as a pastor. Giving themselves to become spiritual mothers and fathers in the church. God doesn’t promise us that we’ll have perfect earthly families. He promises us that through Christ, He will adopt us into His family.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: And that’s the grace and hope that we have.
Jim: It is. And that’s kind of the family context. You also talk about cultivating community.
Gary: Yes.
Jim: And in that way, you have a story of-
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: … a older gentleman who goes to Starbucks and turns his chair out. I’ll put that in air quotes-
Gary: (laughs)
Jim: … “turns his chair out.” Um-
Gary: Yeah.
Jim: … who is he and what is he doing?
Gary: Well-
Jim: And is he accomplishing anything?
Gary: Yeah. I, I’m an introvert. And when my parents lived in Sumner, Washington, before they moved in with my sister, I would be visiting from Texas. I lived in Texas back then, and I would be the first one to open up Starbucks. They opened up at 4:00 AM. I’m a morning person. I was already on Central Time. And I would just go there to get some caffeine and to do some work. And I loved this corner, ’cause I could escape from the world. My back is to the whole restaurant. I could plug in my laptop, nobody’s gonna bother me. Everybody could come and go. Well, they changed the layout. You know how Starbucks-
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: … does that sometimes. So I had to be out front and I just, I didn’t like that. But I was able to look at the restaurant and there was this older guy coming in, I’d say probably mid-80s. He was the exact opposite of me. He would come in every time, ’cause I would do this several days in a row and rearrange the furniture.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: So if you came in, you went by him. And if you came out, you went by him. And every barista got a hug, or a kiss, or a hello. Every customer was greeted. I walked by, he held up his hand and he literally had written the code for the bathroom on his hand.
Jim: (laughs)
Gary: He just, and I just thought-
Jim: Well, he is in his 80s. (laughs)
Gary: Yes. So I, I thought, you know, I go in and I turn my chair in to escape from the world. He turns his chair out to welcome the world in. And I said, you know what? I need to be more like him. In this chapter, I realized how relational our faith is.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: And this relational component I think is getting lost more and more. And I just wanna say, I think you’re gonna be a better spouse if you have friendships outside of your marriage. I think you’re gonna be a better parent if you develop friendships outside of your own kids. Um, it’s just, we learn from each other, we encourage each other, we build each other up. And it’s great to be building our family, but I think we’ll build an even better family when we’re inviting others into our life.
Jim: Hey, Gary, this was great. Uh, I wanna say thank you for all that research. You do such a beautiful job. Your book on marriage is one of the best books I’ve ever read. So thank you for the skill you bring to crafting a book. I mean, it’s, to make it hit home with people is really a gift that the Lord’s given you. And this book doesn’t miss the mark. It’s equally forceful, equally encouraging to lift us up to something bigger and better and more godly. And so, if you can, let’s stick around. We’ll pick up on day two and continue the discussion. Can we do that? And then, uh, tomorrow we’re gonna dismantle more of the lies that Gary’s pointing out. And we hope to give, uh, our listeners that freedom in Christ.
And so, I want to ask you to come back next time and enjoy it. I wanna encourage you to get a copy of Gary’s terrific book, The Life You Were Reborn to Live. And it really talks again about enlisting into service for Christ. And we’d love to get this into your hands. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Another great resource is our Truth Rising documentary. We just released it in September. It’s free on our website along with the documentary, there’s a four-part study that John Stonestreet from the Colson Center has written for us. If you’re interested in learning more about how you can combat the lives of secular culture and get engaged, we’ve got you covered. You can find the details on our website truthrising.com, or watch the entire documentary for free on YouTube. Let me just say, our generous donors are the fuel that keeps the ministry engine running here at Focus on the Family.
We are listener- and donor-supported. We’re working every day to equip parents, strengthen marriages, save pre-born babies, and help their mothers and share the hope of Jesus Christ. Last year alone, Focus on the Family had the privilege to be part of 292,000 decisions for Christ. That’s kingdom impact. But we’re counting on your generous donations to keep that engine running. And when you give to Focus, we’re delivering that hope and joy to people like Kirsten from Indiana who wrote to tell us this. “We recently increased our pledge donation to $100 a month. My husband and I had been married for five years and we have three children and are expecting twins.”
John: Wow. (laughs)
Jim: Tip into Focus on the Family-
John: A full …
Jim: … ’cause you’re certainly creating a family.
John: (laughs)
Jim: She goes on to site. “My husband and I didn’t come from stable families. And the daily broadcast, along with the resource suggestions have been a lifesaver. Because of your ministry, our marriage has benefited, and we are learning the parenting skills that were never modeled to us. And I can only say, praise God.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Because that’s who deserves the, uh, glory for that.
John: That’s really encouraging to hear. And you can continue to provide much needed support to moms like Kirsten when you partner with Focus on the Family. So please, donate today. And right now through a special match opportunity, your year-end gift will be doubled dollar-for-dollar. God’s gonna use your gift to bring healing and redemption and hope to twice the families. So learn more about Truth Rising, donate, and get a copy of this excellent book from Gary Thomas, The Life You Were Reborn to Live, all when you call 800, the Letter A and the word family. That’s 800-232-6459 or stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Gary Thomas and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
