Focus on the Family Broadcast

Preview:

Jason Benham: Satan knows that how you see yourself will determine how you behave yourself.

So, if he can convince you, as a believer, that you’re not a full-time minister, that you’re just an insurance salesman, or you’re- you’re just a real estate guy, or you’re just a stay-at-home mom or whatever, and he can convince you of that, then that’s how you’re gonna act. But what David and I discovered is that we are full-time ministers. The minute you give your heart to Jesus Christ, you’re a minister, you’re on mission, and your work is worship. When you recognize that, you are in full-time ministry. We think that where you’re placed or how you’re paid determines the minister, but it’s not about that. It’s about God’s presence in your life and your passion for Him that makes you a full-time minister right where you are.

End of Preview

John Fuller: Well, that’s Jason Benham, and he’s our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and, uh, also joining us, David, his brother. They’re here to offer encouragement on sharing your faith in everyday life. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller, and as I said, your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: You know, John, one of my favorite images of the Lord sharing Hi- His thoughts with the disciples, uh, is when He told them they would become fishers of men.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Right? Isn’t that a great… He takes these fishermen and then makes them fishers of men, and that’s what we’re all to be, uh, fishers of human beings, you know? Get the word out. Get the gospel out. God wants us to use, um, that connection, uh, to connect with lost people, right? And to introduce them to the scripture, to the Lord, to salvation, to eternal life. And it should be simple but sharing your faith in today’s culture can be really difficult, because there’s a lot of people that don’t agree with what we believe, and the message of Christ can be confrontational sometimes.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that’s okay. Uh, we need to continue to affirm what scripture says, and that’s what we’re gonna talk about today. As believers, we’re called to overcome the fear of sharing th- the message of the gospel, and, uh, when we respond in our humanness with anger when people attack us. So, we’re gonna give you some ideas on how you might be able to do that.

John: Yeah, and the Benham brothers are former professional baseball players, and they’re now successful businessmen and real estate entrepreneurs. And, uh, back in 2014, their TV show on HGTV was canceled because they were really kind of targeted for their Biblical values. Uh, David and Jason have written a book together called Bold and Broken: Becoming the Bridge between Heaven and Earth. And we’ll encourage you to get your copy when you call 800-A-FAMILY or online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: David and Jason, welcome back to Focus on the Family.

Jason: Awesome.

David Benham: Yes.

Jason: It’s great to be here, man.

David: Yes, it is.

Jim: We were in your house the last time. Now you’re in our house.

Jason: That’s exactly right (laughing). I love it.

Jim: Literally, we were in your house.

Jason: Yeah, you ate us out of house and home.

Jim: Yeah, well, thank you.

Jason: We’re gonna repay the favor here (laughing).

Jim: I think that night there was this terrible thunderstorm that rolled through-

David: There was.

Jim: … that was also a little hard for the recording. Do you remember that?

David: That’s right.

Jason: I remember, yeah.

David: I do. It was awesome.

Jim: Kabang!

David: That’s right.

Jim: Every point you made. And it was like the Lord was underlining it.

Jason: It was every point he… every point John made there was a little thunder (laughing).

John: No, no.

Jason: A little lightning (laughing).

Jim: Okay, this is a great book. Bold and Broken, obvious question, why those two words?

David: Yeah, absolutely.

Jason: Well, we- we really believe that now, in our culture, is the time to stand boldly for the Lord. But just as, uh, you guys know the story when Jonathan, you know, the son of Saul, was climbing up that- that mountain and he was gonna attack the Philistine garrison? And it was just Jonathan and his armor bearer, right? But it… the scripture says there were cliffs on both sides. And what David and I are saying is now is time to stand boldly for the Lord, but there’s cliffs on both sides, because boldness apart from brokenness makes you a bully, right? So, the cliff on the one side is you can become a bully. And we- we know what that feels like.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Jason: You start getting angry and you wanna bully people around. But where we see the culture really leaning, especially in the Christian world today, is the cliff on the other side. And that’s brokenness apart from boldness that makes you a bystander. So, you can be a bystander or a bully, those are the two cliffs. But if you wanna stand strong for the Lord, like Jonathan did, when he climbed up that little mountain with his armor bearer and went and took out 20 Philistines, and it took that boldness, it’s boldness on the foundation of brokenness that then makes you a bridge that can connect heaven to earth, that can connect God with the people who are disconnected from Him.

Jim: Yeah. Sometimes it could be hard to connect those Old Testament/New Testament stories with modern life.

Jason: Yeah.

Jim: But I think if you just consider it, it’s right there.

Jason: Yeah.

Jim: It’s very obvious what the Lord was asking them to do, and I think what He’s asking us to do today. Uh, uh, John mentioned this issue with HGTV. You had signed a contract, you were underway, you were gonna do a reality show. Wh- what was the reality show about (laughing), and then let’s get to the real question, which is what transpired with HGTV?

David: Yeah, of course.

Jason: Yeah.

Jim: So, what was the show about?

David: Well, the show was called Flip it Forward. It was… it was on the heels of Chip and Joanna Gaines’s first season called Fixer Upper. They had signed us at the same time they signed Chip and Joanna, and so, um, then at that same time Jason and I were very vocal pro-life, we were very vocal about marriage and about the values of the Lord, uh, in terms of being business leaders in Charlotte and in this country. And we were seeing just some of the things happening in culture, some of the narratives that were being pushed, and so Jason and I were very vocal about these things. So, we were in the middle of filming and, uh, we were five weeks into a 10-week film shoot, we were just a few months away from airing the first season of Flip It Forward. We were flipping houses for- for families, and, um, the, uh, executives came to us, and they said, “Listen guys, we love you, many of us believe just like you do, but we’re getting now circled by activist organizations that are gonna target our advertisers and so we’ve got to, we’ve got to fire you.” So, we became cancel culture seven years ago, before it became a hashtag.

Jim: Right.

David: Yeah, so we… and we knew, we saw, it’s almost like the thought mafia that circles the wagons that says, “You don’t believe like us.” And whether that’s in the university, whether it’s in mainstream media, it’s now in big business. It’s like you have to think like us, and- and the thinking is not necessarily the battle. It’s a true spiritual battle between light and darkness. And you even started the episode by saying that the Lord took fisherman and made them fishers of men. And it’s interesting in scripture, the way that they fished wasn’t with a lure. We often do that in the… in the church today, but God taught them how to fish with a light. They would hang lanterns out over the boat at night and the fish would be attracted to the light, and then they would cast their nets.

Jim: Huh.

David: And that’s how the Lord wants us to fish today, fish with light.

John: Mm-hmm.

David: And in Matthew 5:16 it says, “Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works, your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.” And so that’s what happened to us in business with real estate, by God’s grace. We were shining the light of true biblical values in the marketplace, and we were selling 6,000 to 8,000 houses a year. But-

Jim: I mean in 35 states, right?

David: In 35 states.

Jim: Yeah, that’s crazy.

David: 100 offices. And- and people were getting saved, and we were doing discipleship and supporting a lot of ministries, and we were selling to every kind of human known to man. There was no discrimination like the narrative would like to say.

Jim: Right, sure.

David: None of that stuff. And so, then when HG came and gave us a reality show, that’s when all of the activist organizations were like, “Oh my goodness. You’re gonna give a platform to these guys? There is no chance.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

David: “We’re gonna target your advertisers.” So, we said HGTV got bullied. It wasn’t HGTV’s decision. They invested millions of dollars into us. They got bullied to cancel us, and so we became the first show, uh, that was officially canceled. And we saw that seven years ago.

Jim: Right.

David: And now fast forward to today and God is really calling us to be a bridge and shine the light even brighter.

Jim: Well, and here’s the- the question people may not know, wh- why did they want to cancel you? What was the big issue?

Jason: Well, the- the- the two main issues were that we were vocal pro-life and vocal pro-marriage. So, we- we were getting a show right around the time when the Supreme Court was doing the whole arguments over do, they redefine marriage or not. And so, David and I… I mean it was Apple and PayPal and Delta Airlines and all these businesses were coming out in favor of redefining marriage. David and I were like, “Okay, Christian businessmen need to be speaking too.” So, we said, “Hey, don’t redefine what God has already defined.”

David: And one of the things that we said is that God’s blessings are found within God’s boundaries.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

David: And when we remove those boundaries, the blessings are replaced with burdens. And it’s not bigoted and intolerant to talk about the boundaries of God, right? I mean I ha-

Jim: I totally agree.

David: … I- I have a… I have an owner’s manual in my brand-new Silverado pickup truck-

Jim: Oh.

David: … which by the way is much nicer than Jason’s.

Jason: It is not even close (laughing).

David: A- and I look at it and it tells me in the clove box, uh, when you open it up, it says, “This is how you make the truck work. This is how it’s going to last.” And it’s not, uh, mean and intolerant of those engineers to tell me how is this thing gonna last. God has defined how we thrive and flourish as humans, and the gospel is all about flourishing.

Jim: Yeah. And here’s the problem though, part of the culture is saying, “That’s not a truck. You have an SUV.”

Jason: That’s right.

David: (laughs).

Jim: Don’t you know that?

Jason: Yeah.

Jim: It’s not a truck.

Jason: Yeah.

Jim: And so, where do you go with this idea of truth? I mean-

Jason: Okay.

Jim: … yeah, it’s a truck. What I own is a truck.

Jason: Truth-

Jim: Going to the owner manual analogy.

Jason: Yeah, truth has been trampled in the streets. And so, you go look at the scripture, what do they do when truth is trampled in the streets? You still stand for truth.

Jim: Right.

Jason: Like, uh, David and I, after going through this HGTV situation, we discovered perception is not reality. Truth is reality. If I’m focused only on perception and worried about how I’m perceived, I’m gonna miss the truth. So, we stand, we proclaim, we do it in love, and then people will have false perceptions about us.

Jim: Yeah.

Jason: Now there is a scripture in the New Testament that says, “Blessed are you when people falsely accuse you,” which means-

David: Matthew 5:11.

Jason: … they’re gonna believe things about you that aren’t true.

David: Mm-hmm.

Jason: So, their perception’s gonna be off. But God knows you’re true, and when you’re in that position, because you’ve stood boldly, God looks down and says, “I’m smiling really big on you right now.”

Jim: Uh, let me ask this. The, um, the end of that story, how did you respond to HGTV?

David: Yeah.

Jim: Just as an example of a good way to do it.

David: Well, uh, we specifically reached out to them and said, “Look, we- we know that you got bullied into this. We know that it’s not what you wanted.” These… I mean HG was crying on the phone-

Jason: Yeah.

David: … when they talked to us. And we told them, we said, “There’s a Goliath in this culture, it’s a false ideology fueled by a demonic agenda that’s demanding silence from men and women of faith. And we just want you guys to know that we have no intention of backing down.” And from that point forward, we went on, over about a three-month period, 200 one-on-one interviews, and it was O’Reilly and Megyn Kelly and going on CNN, and we got a chance to see what David must’ve felt like.

David: You know, here he was, he was faithful when nobody was watching and, you know, tended sheep for his dad. And when the… when the lion showed up to take one of the sheep, David took out the lion. When the bear showed up to take out the sheep, David took out the bear, right? If I got 100 sheep, I’m anointed to be King one day, and a lion shows up and a bear shows up, I’m going home with 98. Dad will understand. I got to stay out of the fight, because at that point, David was already anointed to be King.

Jim: Yeah.

David: But then David shows up, he goes from shepherd to Uber delivery guy, right?

Jim: (laughs) Yes.

David: Uber Eats, and so he’s delivering food, and he’s going to that. And, uh, and so he goes out there and he shows us what it looks like, ’cause he heard that Goliath-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

David: … and he faced his fear. And God shows that when you face your fear, He’ll take over the fight.

John: Mm-hmm.

David: And boldness precedes the miraculous.

John: Yeah. Well, we’re hearing some great stuff from the hearts of David and Jason Benham. And, uh, we’re talking about the content in their book, Bold and Broken: Becoming the Bridge Between Heaven and Earth. And we’ll encourage you to get your copy. Uh, just, uh, give us a call, 800-A-FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Uh, David, that’s an example where you had a national confrontation, right?

David: Yes.

Jim: With a-a cable show.

David: Yep.

Jim: Uh, but everyday people, we’re living in the more normal encounters that we have. You had a great story in the book about being on an airplane.

David: Yes.

Jim: This is more typical of what I would encounter-

David: (laughs).

John: Oh, yeah.

Jim: … is somebody who sees me reading the bible or something like that-

David: Yeah.

Jim: … and- and they wanna make a comment about it.

David: Yeah.

Jim: What happened in your case?

David: So, Jason was sitting by the window, I was sitting on the aisle. People were, uh, boarding the plane. Middle seat was open, and this lady comes walking up and I- I had before she, uh, came walking up, I’d opened my bible and just had it on my lap, and I was knocking out some bible reading. And I was actually in it. I didn’t… I could… was zoned out, didn’t have a clue what was going on. I was in the scripture. And, uh, I feel this tap on my shoulder, “Excuse me, Sir, I’m sitting… I’m in the middle seat.” “Oh, yes, Ma’am.” I- I hop up, I help her, you know, she’s moving into her seat, I help her with her bag. She sits down and gets adjusted, puts her seatbelt on and then looks over at me. Like I’m now reading again, ’cause I wanted to leave her alone, and she looks over at me and she goes, “I just want you to know that I believe nothing like you and I’m a…” uh, did she say raging, uh, liberal feminist?

Jason: Feminist, yeah.

David: She goes, “I am a raging liberal feminist and I believe nothing like you.” And I was like… I could feel my heart start beating and I just, uh, uh-

Jim: But by the way, you’re the bigot.

David: I’m the bigot, of course.

John: (laughs).

Jim: I just wanted to insert that.

David: So, but- but here’s the thing-

Jason: Of course.

David: And so, I just simply said, “Do you mind if I just share a scripture with you and- and read to you kind of in light of what you’re telling me about your son?” And she says, “Okay.” You know, by this time, you know, we’re probably about eight minutes into the conversation. Jason is ugly face snoring on the window.

Jim: (laughs).

David: He’s giving nothing to this conversation.

Jason: Long day, long day guys.

John: Right, you were probably praying for him.

Jason: I was interceding, yeah.

David: Like the least he could do was pray for me. He was not interceding (laughing). Anyway, he was dreaming about unicorns or whatever, so-

Jim: (laughs).

David: … um, I- I open the bible and I kind of lean it toward her to where she can see it. And, uh, I began with my finger and I’m just showing… I’m kind of going down the verses as I’m reading. And when I got to, “You were knit together in your mother’s womb,” right-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

David: … “Before- before any of your days, the Lord numbered you, He knew you, He created you in the depths of the earth.” All of a sudden, her chin starts to quiver. Tears start to well in her eyes and then tears just start rolling down her cheeks.

Jim: Uh-huh.

David: And she said this, she goes, “I cannot believe I’m about to tell you this, but all my life I’ve had this recurring dream that I’m in a hospital room and it was at the day of my birth,” she said, “Because I was adopted.” She- she goes, “I was adopted. My adoptive parents were there when I was born.” She said, “But at the day of my birth, I’m laying in the l- little incubator that they’re rolling out toward the elevator, and I’m seeing people around me and I’m saying in my heart, ‘Don’t worry about me, I’ll take care of myself.’”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

David: That’s… so, I’m like-

Jim: Wow.

David: … the Holy Spirit is working on her heart; I’m just reading scripture. And now she’s telling… she’s like spilling all this out. She got right to the root of her feminism without me dissecting any of her world view, she got right to the root of that feminism. And, uh, and she goes, “And I’ve never read this kind of verse before.” And the next thing you know I just start asking her questions and I’m saying, “Listen, God has a purpose and a destiny. He was there with you when you were born, He created you.” Now by this time she is just a mess, and she tells me she wants to surrender her life to the Lord, she needs prayer for her kids and all this other stuff. Then I think Jason wakes up and, you know, I don’t know what he does at the end-

Jason: I had to come in and close the deal.

Jim: (laughs).

Jason: I had to close to deal.

David: … but I’ll just tell you this, here’s what was important, is that we live in a very hot culture right now.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

David: And we have to be people that are bold. We also have to be people that are broken, and by broken we mean humble, we mean God’s already dealt with our own stuff, right? I don’t want someone to preach down at me.

Jim: Yeah.

David: I need someone to come alongside me, but also lead me to truth, not to deny the truth.

Jim: Yeah.

David: And- and so watching this happen on the airplane, and then we get off the airplane, she says, “Here’s my email, reach out.” And of course, you know, we- we emailed her and, uh, and it was just an amazing thing that this… God wants to connect. He wants us to be a bridge for all of these hurting people. And- and I remember when Bill Maher was on HBO. He called me and Jason nitwits. He said we believe in a dumb book. Well, we sent him an edible arrangement and invited him, “Hey man, let’s go have dinner. And by the way, will you have me on the show?” You know, and then with HGTV, still to this day for the last seven years, every May 5th, the day they fired us, every single May 5th, the executive staff gets edible arrangements from the Benham brothers thanking them for believing in us.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

David: Thanking them for walking alongside of us, because we’re happy warriors, because we know the end of the book. We know the end of the story.

Jim: Sure. That’s the point. That’s where you have-

David: These people need help.

Jim: … peace of mind. Jason, let me, uh, let you finish that story of what happened with that woman?

Jason: Well, she… did she give her heart to the Lord-

David: Yeah, Mm-hmm.

Jason: … on the… on the plane?

David: Yeah. She prayed.

Jason: She gave her heart to the Lord and then she reached back out to us and said, “Guys-

David: We connected her with others and [crosstalk].

Jason: … I know that, you know, our lives are going separate ways. I just want you guys to know that that was… that was a divine moment. Like I know that God had you guys there for that time.”

Jim: Now Jason, I don’t wanna pick on you-

Jason: Yeah.

Jim: … but you also have a plane experience, but- but you kind of-

Jason: Oh, my gosh.

David: Oh, it was worse.

Jim: … being a baseball player it was a swing and a miss.

Jason: No (laughs).

Jim: But, you know, this is where all of us live.

Jason: Yeah.

Jim: And so, let me… let me pick on you and say you kind of missed that divine moment.

Jason: Well, yes. And- and I put this story-

Jim: Maybe.

Jason: … in the book on purpose, because we- we talked about how, you know, David’s faithfulness in ministering to that woman. When God pricked his heart to speak to her, that he went in and spoke to her in a… in a very loving way. Well, I had a moment on a plane when, uh, I was sitting down, this was about, uh, maybe a year or two after David’s situation, and a young girl came and sat next to me. And this… David and I had a long day. I was sitting in the middle, David was on the aisle, and she was in the window. And-

Jim: Why- why did you get the middle seat?

David: Uh, yeah.

Jason: I don’t know, it’s really weird, right?

Jim: Come on, bro.

David: He’s not Platinum Priority like me.

Jason: It doesn’t even make sense to me.

Jim: (laughs). Arm wrestle for that.

Jason: It doesn’t make sense to me. But anyway, so she sat down and- and David and I had a long day, and she was a talker. And she started talking and my head started pounding and I was like, “Oh, boy.” But I felt the Holy Spirit say, “Just listen. Just listen to her.” But then just before the door closed in the airplane, the flight attendant came up and said, “Mr. Benham,” and ’cause I was sitting in the middle. She said, “The exit row is open up there. You can go sit up there.”

Jason: Uh, I have really good status or whatever, and- and I said, “This is God (laughing). This is amazing.” Well, I went and sat in the exit row, and I fell asleep that entire plane ride. And then we landed, she somehow got ahead of me, and when I’m walking off the plane, God is my witness, she’s standing waiting for me in- in the airport at the end of the little aisle once you come out of that little entry way.

Jim: Yeah.

Jason: And she said, “Well, I hate that you didn’t sit with me. I had a lot to talk about.” And she turned around and walked off.

Jim: Wow.

Jason: And I was like, “I’m so sorry.”

Jim: Yeah.

Jason: But then the Holy Spirit, I mean it… I felt so incredibly convicted. Like “God, you told me to listen to her. I was too tired. I failed the test.” And so, I started praying like, “God, b- bring somebody else to her, like a cab driver or somebody-

John: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah.

Jason: … that will tell her about You, because I failed miserably.”

Jim: And that happens. That’s the point.

Jason: Yeah, it does.

Jim: And then I’ve had that experience as well.

Jason: That’s right.

David: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So, uh, we’re all probably guilty to missing those opportunities.

David: Yeah.

Jim: Let me… let me come back to something, uh, David, that you mentioned. I always wrestle with Peter in the garden.

David: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, there he was strapping on to defend the Son of God.

David: (laughs).

Jim: We all played sports and, you know, you love that concept of defending the Son of God.

David: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Now to his defense, he wasn’t filled with the spirit of God yet.

David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim: The Holy Spirit had not been given. He’s walking out of his flesh, and he did the things that really help me feel better about myself (laughs).

David: Yes.

Jim: You know? He pulled out the sword. I don’t think he was going for the man’s ear.

David: Mm-hmm.

Jim: What guy things that?

David: He was gonna cut his head off, yeah.

Jim: He was gonna go for his throat.

David: Mm-hmm. And gut.

Jim: And, uh, and obviously the Lord rebuked him, said, “That’s not my Kingdom.” You know, you live by the sword, you die by the sword, all those sayings that come out of that scripture.

David: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, it- it does give me some comfort, but it reminds me that our fleshly response to these worldly attacks usually is not what the Lord wants from us-

David: Right.

Jim: … if not always. And I guess the question in all of that is to say how- how do we better respond in a spiritual context?

David: Yes.

Jim: You know, my friend, Dr. Barry Corey out of Biola, he’s the President there, he- he talked about, you know, being firm in the middle, soft on the edges.

David: Mm-hmm.

John: That’s right.

Jim: But it is difficult to walk that way sometimes.

David: Yeah.

Jason: Yes.

Jim: I don’t know if it’s temperament-

Jason: Yes.

Jim: … or where we’re at in our own development-

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … with the Holy Spirit, our own sanctification process, but we tend to miss that mark so often.

David: Mm-hmm. One of the things that- that Jesus said to Peter, and he said it to James and John as well, He- He didn’t just tell them to pray. He told them to keep watch.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

David: So, He was like, “Keep watch and pray.” And of course, they did neither.

Jim: Right (laughs).

David: So, one, we’ve got to have an active prayer life where we really need to be spending that time going deep in our prayers. But two, you’ve got to keep watch, which means looking and listening for God in all things. Because if you’re looking and listening for God in all things, then you’re gonna recognize when God shows up. But you’re also gonna recognize when the enemy shows up disguised as God.

Jason: That’s right.

David: And you’ll know which weapon to grab if you’re awaken, you’re keeping watch and looking for lis-… and listening for God like that. See, Peter didn’t realize Jesus had to teach him to grab a spiritual weapon. He was ready to fight a physical fight.

Jim: Right.

David: Right. But he grabbed a physical weapon. And this is why we say, look, boldness without the brokenness will make you a bully like Peter. Peter, in the garden, was the bully, because he wasn’t broken. So, what did God had to do? G- God had to walk him through a period of brokenness where he realized, “I’m an idiot.”

Jim: Mm-hmm. Right. I failed.

David: You know, [crosstalk].

Jason: The secret to courage is first recognizing your inner coward and then you allow the Holy Spirit to unleash your inner lion. But don’t unleash the lion if you don’t realize you’re a coward, right? So, that’s brokenness, yeah.

David: So, Peter in the garden was a bully, but then later Peter in the courtyard was a bystander.

Jim: Yeah.

David: So, now all of a sudden Peter’s asked by a young girl, “Oh, were- weren’t you one of them? You know, weren’t you one of them?” And he’s asked again, and he denies Him three times. Now all of a sudden what is Peter? He’s not a bully like the garden, he’s a bystander-

Jason: And this is-

David: … in the courtyard.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jason: … and this is where we find a lot of the Christians in culture today, is Peter in the courtyard. But what we’re saying is be Peter at Pentecost. That was the Peter who stood boldly, who said, “Yeah, you guys killed Him, but listen, He has…” you know, He came in and gave the gospel and 3,000 get saved. That’s Peter who became the bridge.

Jim: Yeah. Um, this is a big question. A lot of people feel that to be in full-time ministry is the right thing. Now you guys have done it in baseball when you were in the minor leagues et cetera, trying to get up to the big leagues.

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Now, who made it there? Did one of you make it (laughing)?

David: I got traded to St. Louis.

Jason: David got a couple calls up.

Jim: You got traded to St. Louis (laughs).

David: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: Okay, well that’s incredible.

Jason: David was… David-

David: The Cardinals.

Jason: … actually was a tight end for the Cardinals (laughs). He said, “Coach, can I get in?” He’s like, “You sit tight on the end of that bench (laughing).”

Jim: That’s good brotherly banter.

Jason: Yeah.

Jim: But, uh, the point of it is, um, you don’t have to be… you are in full-time ministry-

Jason: That’s exactly right.

Jim: … no matter what you’re doing.

Jason: Yes. Yeah, and see, Satan knows that how you see yourself will determine how you behave yourself.

Jim: Right.

Jason: So, if he can convince you, as a believer, that you’re not a full-time minister, that you’re just an insurance salesman, or you’re- you’re just a real estate guy, or you’re just a stay-at-home mom or whatever, and he can convince you of that, then that’s how you’re gonna act. But what David and I discovered is that we are full-time ministers. The minute you give your heart to Jesus Christ, you’re a minister, you’re on mission, and your work is worship. When you recognize that, you are in full-time ministry. We think that where you’re placed or how you’re paid determines the minister, but it’s not about that. It’s about God’s presence in your life and your passion for Him that makes you a full-time minister right where you are.

Jim: And what’s so critical about people catching that, is then we ignite the Lord-

Jason: That’s right.

Jim: … ignites the church to be the church.

David: Mm-hmm.

Jason: That’s exactly right.

Jim: That we don’t lean on the pastor to do everything.

Jason: That’s right. We don’t have to.

Jim: Because it’s our job.

Jason: We are active participants.

Jim: Yeah.

Jason: That’s why we say we are the bridge. Like w- w-… some people think, “Oh, I can’t be the bridge.” No, Jesus taught us to pray, “Your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In other words, and then how does He do that? All through scripture it’s like, “Moses, I’m gonna redeem my people and bring heaven to earth. Now, you go to Pharaoh,” you know? Peter and James and John and the disciples, right, “I am going to build My church. Now you build the church.” So, we connect, we become a bridge, we’re active participants in the work of Christ on earth, which is why true consecration and purity, you know, you- you don’t become a bridge when you’re gossiping about people.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jason: You don’t become a bridge when you’re belligerent and mean and disrespectful, right?

Jim: Yeah.

Jason: You- you don’t become a bridge when you’re living an impure life. That’s why we talk about biblical consecration, getting before the Lord, letting Him prod you, having accountability in your life so that we can be pure, strong bridges to connect people to their Creator.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Definitely. Well, uh, David and Jason, um, you guys have done a great job with Bold and Broken. It’s a concept that I believe in. I wrote a book called Refocus–

David: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … pretty much on that same theme, you know-

David: Yes.

Jim: … of how we have to be in the culture. And, uh, I think the Lord is beckoning us to move in a- a healthier spiritual direction. I’ve thought that for the last decade or two.

Jason: Right.

Jim: And this is the fork in the road that the church sees-

Jason: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … are we in an enemy environment, or a POW environment? Meaning are we here to save those who are created in God’s image-

Jason: Amen, that’s good.

Jim: … and to introduce them to their Creator? I fully believe that. It’s right there in second Timothy if you wanna read it, right?

Jason: Yes.

David: Mm-hmm.

Jim: In the- the end of the second chapter of second Timothy. And, uh, that’s what it’s about. So, thank you for being with us. Thank you for… I mean your enthusiasm’s a little light (laughing), so you might wanna work on that.

David: I’ve been working on it.

Jim: But I love it, and I hope people respond. Because this is exactly, like I said, the fork in the road.

David: Mm-hmm.

Jim: This is… if the culture is gonna put pressure on us and put us, uh, kind of put our back up against the wall, the first question for us to ask is, “Okay, Lord, what are you doing?”

David: That’s right.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Not, “What are they doing?”

Jason: That’s good.

Jim: ‘Cause nothing’s gonna happen without God’s hand allowing it to happen.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So, that’s the right question, and I think you have put together a great response and a good answer for the Christians who are sincere, those convectional Christians that say, “Hey, I wanna live for the Lord.”

Jason: Amen.

John: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, this is a great pathway. Thanks for being with us.

Jason: Thanks, man.

David: Thank you.

John: Well, follow up on this great conversation with the Benham brothers by getting a copy of their book, Bold and Broken: Becoming the Bridge Between Heaven and Earth. And of course, we have copies of that here at the ministry. We’ll send you that book when you make a donation of any amount to Focus on the Family, uh, as our way of saying thank you for supporting the work here of the ministry as we seek to strengthen families and equip Christians to be a light in our culture. Donate and get your copy of Bold and Broken when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

Or you can donate online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And if you missed any part of today’s, uh, conversation with the Benhams’, you can find the entire broadcast and a large collection of other, uh, great resources on the Focus on the Family app. Look for it on the app store, or at Google Play. Well, join us next time as Kari Kampakis offers a glimpse into the world of teen girls and the important role that you, mom, play.

Preview:

Kari Kampakis: It really matters that we keep a pulse in their lives, that there’s a lot at stake if our teenagers are struggling and we don’t have that relationship in place to be able to sense that something’s wrong. And they might be acting out. It might come out as anger or something else, but really trying to build that bridge to them so that they know they can come to us and that we can show them God’s love and help them get through these struggles they’re going through.

End of Preview

John: On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.