Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One:

Preview:

Ashley Willis: I mean, there’s many, many things that we wanna leave behind as a legacy. But I think the biggest one is that marriage is awesome. Like, I, you know, even in the hard moments, marriage is wonderful. It is a gift, and that there is hope even in the hard times. Um, that’s something that we always wanna point to. But I think for every couple, just coming back to that reason that God brought them together, because I think in hard seasons, especially those broken seasons we talked about, we lose sight of that because we’re just in critical condition, we’re just trying to survive, right? But in order to thrive, we have to think about that bigger picture.

End Of Preview

John Fuller: That’s Ashley Willis, and she, and her husband, Dave, join us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we’re glad you’re here. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, here’s a book title that should grab everybody, Do Marriage Better. (laughs). Who doesn’t want that book?

John: Mm.

Jim: And, uh, I have, uh, prepped for the show. There is so much good stuff in here. Here’s the best part, the subtitle, 7 Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. And our guests are talking about little things you can do that make big differences. And I think that’s been my observation about marriage. When Jean, and I hit a tough spot, it’s usually because one of us has said something a little off that sets the other one askew.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Why did you say it like that? That kind of hurt my feelings, whatever it might be. And if we could be a little more thoughtful about how we communicate, and in other areas of our lives, how we interact with each other, man, you could have a marriage that is the best. And that’s what we’re aiming for today with our guests.

John: Yeah. Dave, and Ashley Willis are conference speakers, and relationship coaches, and podcast hosts. Uh, they’ve been in full-time marriage ministry for quite a long time now. They’ve got four boys, and they’ve written a terrific book called, as you said, Jim, Do Marriage Better: 7 Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. And, uh, we wanna encourage you to go to FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast to get the book, and learn more about the Willis’ ministry.

Jim: Dave, and Ashley, welcome back. Good to have you here.

Ashley: So, glad to be here.

Dave Willis: Always.

Ashley: Always.

Dave: Always a pleasure to see you guys.

Jim: Yeah, it’s fun. It’s good to see you guys. Listen, I was serious about that i-i-in terms of the seven simple shifts. That’s what you guys are talking about, these simple shifts.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: It can sound too easy. So, let’s cover those seven just quickly, and then we’ll begin to dive into them, and hopefully couples can walk away from this, and go, “Oh, man, we can make a 20% improvement in our marital relationship.” That would be good.

Dave: Absolutely, that would be good. And that, that was really the heart of the book. I think sometimes we over-complicate things. I over-complicate things.

Jim: (laughs) You think?

Dave: And, you know, you think, “Oh, I’ve gotta lose 100 pounds.” It’s like, well, maybe you could start just by losing a couple.

Jim: You would go right to that, wouldn’t you? (laughs) That wasn’t the idea I had in mind, but- (laughs).

Dave: Right. You know, baby steps.

Jim: Baby steps.

Dave: Baby steps.

Jim: First 100 pounds.

Dave: The first… Yeah. (laughs) So, and in, in marriage, it’s the same way. We, we think, oh, I’ve gotta, you know, if, if marriage was a weight loss goal, I’ve gotta lose 100 pounds in, in our marriage to get where we want it to be. It’s like, w- maybe just take smaller bite-sized steps-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: …to make simple shifts that over time really will lead to those big payoffs. And the, the areas, the shifts that we’re talking about are just those main areas that affect every marriage. Areas like money, communication, sex, parenting, legacy. Like, these are things that all couples talk about, and deal with. And we’ve just put together some tools based on working with couples for many years and, and of course studying what the Bible has to say about marriage, and realizing God doesn’t want it to be complicated. It doesn’t mean that marriage is always easy.

Jim: Right.

Dave: But it’s not as complicated as we make it. And if we’ll do these little shifts, it can make a big difference.

Jim: Okay. So, we hit some of those themes as people were listening. It went by fast, but I’m sure they caught it. But Ashley, when we start looking at it, communication is really tricky.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: For all kinds of reasons. People, we tend to wanna not recognize that we do have some limitations, gender issues.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And what I mean by that is men think differently than women.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: I mean, the culture in some areas are trying to say, “No, there’s no difference.” There is a difference. I mean, researchers show this when they give kids toys, right? The boys turn them into bombs, and explosions- (laughs)… And the girls tend to turn it into a tea party.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, so there’s just basic things that we’re already set for at two, three, four years old. And guess what? We pull these things into our teen years, our 20-somethings, and certainly our marriages.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So, in looking at that, what’s one first step a couple can take to start talking in a way that really builds each other up? Man, we, Jean, and I work at this, and yet there are days I just get the F grade. (laughs) So, how do we do that more consistently?

Ashley: Man, that, that’s such a good question. And, and we can relate, too. We’ve been married almost 25 years, and it’s been a journey. But I will say early in our marriage, I really made the mistake that a lot of couples make in assuming that Dave processes things the way I do, and that he should communicate the way I do. And, and really, we constantly found ourselves bumping heads. And just to give an example, I tend to process things as I’m talking. Like, I’m talking, and I’m processing, and I’m expecting him to do the same. And so if I had an issue, and I would bring it to Dave, I would, you know, start talking about it, and just kind of, just going through it, just drilling him with all these different things that I wanted to address. And he would look at me kind of stunned, and then I would get to the end of my tirade, and he would just stare at me, and he wouldn’t say anything, and I took it as, “Oh, you don’t care. You don’t have anything to say. You don’t care.” And so then I would be like, “You just don’t care.” And then I would kind of go into the other room. And then he would come back later after maybe like 30 minutes, and he’s like, “Ashley, I do care. I just needed time to think.” Like, I just need to-

Jim: Yeah, it’s overwhelming.

Ashley: …take this in.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: It’s overwhelming. (laughs) I care more than you could imagine.

Dave: I gotta process this.

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: But she’d watch so many Hallmark movies-

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: …where-

Ashley: Guilty.

Dave: …where the guy has a script, and knows what to say every time.

Jim: Isn’t that the truth.

Dave: The good looking lumberjack always knows what to say.

Ashley: He does.

Dave: And he’s so sensitive, and kind, and I didn’t have a script. I’m like, “I don’t know what to do here.”

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And I’m also very literal too. Like one of the things we had to learn in, in marriage is she would say things to try to soften a, a request, but really I would take it literally, like she would say things like, “Hey, Dave, when you get a minute, could you bring me this?” And I thought that meant at any point in the day-

Jim: When you get a minute-

Ashley: When you get a minute. (laughs)

Dave: Young husbands listen to me. If your wife says when you get a minute, it means now. (laughs)

Ashley: It means do it now.

Dave: It means right now. No one told me this. Uh, she would say like, “We need to do some… We, we need to mow the yard.” And I would think, “How are we gonna mow the yard? It’s not a two-person job. We have a push mower.” (laughs) But I would wait till she was ready to do it with me and, and she would say, “Why isn’t the yard mowed?” I’d say, “Well, I thought we wanted to do it together.” And she said, “Why do we do it together?” I said, “Exactly.” (laughs) And so when, when your wife says we need to do something, guys, it probably means a gentle way of her saying, “Hey, you need to do this.” And-

Ashley: But can you please do this?

Dave: Can you please? And she was being so polite, and kind, and softening the language, but I was just a neanderthal that took everything completely literally and, uh, and it took us a while just to connect on simple things like that, which we laugh about now, of course. And then as marriage goes on, and communication gets more nuanced and, and the issues you face might get a little more complex.

Jim: So, a couple right now is going-

Ashley: Yeah.

Jim: …okay, so, uh, that’s where we’re at.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: What is that first step? What is something they can do to either say it differently?

Ashley: Yes. No, that, that’s true because I know they’re like, “Well, that’s, you know, lawnmower issues are not our thing.”

Dave: Right.

Ashley: I think where we need to start-

Dave: We’re smarter than Dave.

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: So, can you help us with something that’s actually practical? (laughs)

Ashley: Really, we need, we need to come at each other with curiosity, and compassion. And if we can start there, and not come at, at each other with criticism, because I found myself in those hard years of communication, always really having this critical eye, when I shifted to having curiosity, like, “Well, why is he not speaking?” Is it that maybe I’ve just landed, you know, these things on him that he needs to think about, or maybe I’m not being clear about this because clarity is kindness, like maybe I just need to be a little more clear. When we have curiosity, it’s really hard to be angry about that because we’re curious instead of critical. And so I think even just that simple way of having curiosity, it changes how we talk to each other. Have a curious tone too. It’s not just the words you, you say, it’s how you say them. And when you’re curious in your tone, it’s a little softer because you’re trying to inquire about what’s going on instead of assuming what’s going on.

Jim: And these are all great concepts. The, uh, let me ask you this, this, you relate to the talk you hear in your head.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Again, we learn things, family of origin, all those things that we grow up with, if you had a negative parent, for example, when you hear your spouse say something like, “Oh, the chicken seems a little cool”, or whatever it might be.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: And I know a lot of guys are doing the cooking now, so I don’t mean it in a, in that way. It’s just whoever says something as an observation can be taken as a, a demeaning comment, like you’re attacking me, and my worth-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: …that I’m not good enough. I didn’t do it well enough. Speak to that idea of the words we hear in our head, and how do we arrest those so that we don’t let that fly off the handle inside.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Ashley’s so good at this. In addition to her long resume already, she’s also a very gifted biblical counselor and, and works with people, and helps them with these kind of issues all the time because the voices in our head, that inner monologue, that inner soundtrack, it impacts everything that we do. And a lot of times when your spouse responds in a way where they’re hurt by something you said, or did, it goes much deeper than what you said, or did. It goes to a place of woundedness that they have probably from long before you even came into the picture.

Ashley: Right.

Dave: Where they’re carrying this deep insecurity around a certain area that came from growing up in a home maybe where, like you said, there, there was potentially a negative parent or, or they felt like as a kid, they couldn’t do anything right and, and they’re carrying that into the marriage, and you could say something, not meaning anything by it, but it touches a wound from way back then. And so when your spouse responds in a way where it doesn’t seem like it fits, right? You know, you, you said something that wasn’t meant to cause offense, and they seem to get offended, uh, or emotional, instead of getting defensive yourself, like she said earlier, get curious, like lean into that-

Jim: Uh-huh.

Dave: …say, “Let’s talk about that. I didn’t mean to hurt you, but let’s talk about the nerve that that struck, because I wanna help. I wanna help not do that again on my part, but I also wanna help you, uh, process, and work through whatever the root cause of that wound might be.”

Jim: It sounds like diffusing.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: You know, that’s the, the word picture I think of, of the bomb, the emotional bomb being diffused with great craft.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Cut the right wire.

Jim: Cut the right wire.

John: (laughs)

Ashley: Right, right.

Jim: I don’t know which one to cut. (laughs) But, uh, Ashley, let me ask you this. You, you mentioned tone a while ago.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, I love the story you had in the book about your dog.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: (Laughing) And Jean, and I were laughing when we read that because we could see your boys describe for the audience what happened because it, it, this is something I’m gonna try.

Ashley: Oh, my gosh. Well, we have our little dog Chichi. She’s a Chiweenie supposedly. That’s what the pound told us.

Jim: A Chiweenie.

Ashley: Yeah, supposedly that’s a Chihuahua, and a Dachshund mix.

Jim: Okay.

Ashley: Okay. So, they call that a Chiweenie. And our boys, you know, we say sweet things to Chichi all day, but they were like wanting to see if they said mean things in a nice tone if she would have the same response, and she did. So, they’d be like, “Chi Chi, you’re the ugliest dog there is on earth.” (laughs).

Jim: Chichi would wiggle over?

Ashley: “We don’t like you chichi,” and she’s just smiling, and wagging her tail, and it’s like she doesn’t care at all what they’re saying. And they’re like, “See, it’s the tone, mom. It’s the tone.”

Dave: Well, then they’d say nice things in a mean tone.

Ashley: Yes. Oh, that’s right. Yes.

Dave: Like “You’re the best dog ever, and we love you so much”, and she’d get-

Ashley: She’d be like “Ooh.”

Dave: She’d get scared.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Jim: So, yeah, tone made the difference not the words.

Dave: Exactly.

Ashley: Exactly.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Exactly. And so we, you know, as human beings, we need to pay attention to our tone because it matters. And I think sometimes we can find ourselves in what I like to refer to as a sandpaper season where maybe our spouse didn’t do a thing, but we are in a rough season where we already feel wounded, we feel raw. And so they could just say something that isn’t even meant to be hurtful, but we take it that way because maybe the tone hit us wrong.

Jim: How do we, how do we defuse that? Because I’ve had that experience where I’m just saying-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: …something almost like a, a journalist would say.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, four people went off the road yesterday, and struck a poll, and everyone survived, and everyone’s good. “Why would you say that to me like that?” (laughs) And I’m going, “What did I just say?” (laughs) So, how do we honor our spouse to give us that feedback of how that comment may have wounded them? And then in the inside, our head talk is, what in the world is she talking about? All I did was state a fact.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: I didn’t have a tone with it at all. Where’s the referee call in that? How do I back off of that, and say, “Okay, obviously it didn’t work for her.”

Ashley: Right.

Jim: What do I need to do to say it differently? What do you coach couples with in that regard?

Ashley: I love that you said you gotta get ahold of your own self-talk because I do think if we’re just stewing all day, and having assumptions like, well, she’s just emotional, and she just doesn’t get me-

Jim: Right.

Ashley: …and like what’s wrong her? Like if we’re just stewing on that all day, when we have that next conversation with our spouse, we’re gonna come off really negatively, too, because we’ve assumed the worst of them. And so first of all, we’ve gotta reign in those thoughts, and assume the best, and then ask questions, ask questions if you don’t know, if you’re like really like, “What’s going on there?” I would go up to your spouse, and say, “Listen, I can tell that really struck a nerve in you. I want you to know I’m for you, and not against you.”

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: “What went on there? Like what did I say, or do, or maybe it wasn’t even me. What’s going on here?”

Jim: You know, in that regard, that’s a great point. We make the assumption that you did it on purpose. (laughs) And I would say 95% of the time, it’s probably not accurate.

Ashley: Exactly.

Jim: Both directions, right?

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We do assume that you did that. You threw that dart at me, and it hit its mark.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And you’re going, “What dark? What mark?” (laughs).

Ashley: Yeah.

Jim: And, you know, there might be times where you are throwing a dig, and you gotta be careful with that, obviously. There’s healthier ways to do that. But again, that’s how with that communication, we gotta be mindful, and make, maybe make the assumption, and this is a good thing. I’m having a lot of aha’s lately. (laughs) And I’ve been married almost 40 years, that’s trouble.

Ashley: That’s amazing.

Jim: But just that idea of before I react emotionally like that, make the assumption that Jean didn’t know what she was saying, or vice versa.

Ashley: Exactly.

Jim: But how do you train yourself to do that to say, “Okay, I’m not gonna assume the worst first.”

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: In the love chapter, 1st Corinthians 13, when Apostle Paul gives us this, this great list of what love is, the very first adjective he uses is patient. Love is patient.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Love is patient, love is kind, it goes on from there. And I think that’s the part, he, he put that first, the Bible list at first, because that’s the part we struggle with the most, is the patience of like really taking a breath and, and leaning in and, and staying curious. You know, Ephesians 4:32 talks about be kind, and compassionate to one another, and then it uses a word that I love, tenderhearted forgiving one another. And I think that tenderness in marriage is usually what we need to lean into when there’s a pattern of offense of like, how can I, in my tone, in my words, in my pursuit of my spouse, and my thoughtfulness, just be tender with them, you know, not rough with them, but just tender with them. And if we’ll take that posture, it will change the way we talk. And, and all of us, we know how to do this because you look at somebody that might be harsh with their spouse, and they think, “Well, I’m just not a, a flowery person with my words.” And then they’ll get their dog, and they’ll be like, “I love you so much. You’re so precious,” you know?

Jim: (laughs) Oops.

Dave: And so they clearly know how to be tender, right?

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: We all do, but we just need to direct that where it matters the most, and be tender, and patient with your spouse.

Ashley: And I wanna say this too, just practically, take at least five seconds, just count to five, take a deep breath before you say anything. And if at that five, at number five, if you’re still just rearing to go, ready to say something mean, count to five again.

Jim: Oh.

Ashley: And if you can’t get yourself regulated, dismiss yourself, and say, “I love you. I’m gonna go take a minute. I’ll be right back. I promise I won’t leave you hanging. I just need a minute.”

Jim: Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: Because I think so many times we just don’t advocate. We don’t take the time because we’re just, you know, we let the emotions take over, but we need to take the time because our relationship is worth it.

John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guests today are Dave and Ashley Willis, and we’re talking about their book, Do Marriage Better: 7 Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. We have that at our website. And I’m also gonna mention our free marriage assessment. It was developed here by our marriage team. Over a million people have taken it, and it is a terrific tool. Uh, you just spend five, or 10 minutes, uh, with that assessment, and you’ll have hours of talking points. It’s free, it’s on our website, and it’s gonna show you how you’re doing well in your relationship, and the areas you might improve. Look for that assessment, and the book by Dave and Ashley at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Let’s move to prioritizing your marriage. This is one, especially for young couples that can be difficult in the busy season, uh, but you have this concept of concentrating on your marriage. Why do we say a marriage-centric, uh, family is, is critical over a child-centric family? How do we do that?

Dave: Well, the, the simplest reason why we do that is because that’s the way God designed it.

Jim: That is true.

Dave: You know, when you look, look at scripture, you look at how he orchestrated the family from the very first couple on, it, that’s His design that the most important human relationship we have on earth if we’re married is with our spouse. It’s God first, then our spouse, then our kids. And when we get that out of balance, when we put our kids first, it creates codependency, it creates, uh, it creates a lot of difficult things. It’s one of the reasons why the divorce rate is spiking among empty-nesters.

Jim: Right.

Dave: And people are, are good at co-parenting, and paying bills, and running kids to practice, and being focused on the kids. And once the kids are out of the house, they look at each other, and realize they’re married to a stranger. And sadly, there’s an epidemic of divorce-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dave: …among people who’ve been married, you know, 20, 30 plus years. And we’re trying to just help people. We’re not saying anything really new, or novel in this. We’re just trying to point people back to the timeless truth of God’s design for putting marriage first. And when you give your kids the gift of seeing a healthy marriage, it is a gift to them because a lot of, uh, young people are scared to get married right now. They’re, they’re cohabitating, they’re dating around, they’re scared of marriage. The reason why is they grew up in a household where they never saw a good example of it. And if we can give our kids a good example, that’s one of the greatest gifts we can give them is they go out on their own, and start their own family.

Jim: That’s really good. Now, how did Oreos teach this to your family? (laughs) This is what I want to know. I mean, I love a good Oreo.

Dave: Cookies and sweets find their way into all of our family stories. (laughs) And, um, we just have a lot of…

Ashley: We…

Dave: …a lot of sweet tooth people in the house.

Jim: Okay.

Dave: But there was an Oreo story.

Ashley: There is, oh my gosh, it ma- it grosses me out every time I tell it. But it’s also kind of a funny story. So, I remember, this is when we were in the thick of, of raising four boys at the time. Our youngest was probably, I don’t know, one, and a half, and our oldest was maybe 10. And there was this quiet in the house all of a sudden. And that rarely happened at that time.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: When it… And we were enjoying it for a moment. I think I was folding laundry, you were doing some other kind of chore, and we, it was just a quiet moment. And I realized, I don’t know where Chatham is, our littlest one. And I’m like, “Oh my gosh, where’s Chatham?” And Dave’s like, “I thought you knew where Chatham was.” And all of a sudden, we look at the kitchen, and the, at the time, we had a great room, but our kitchen light was off, but there was one little light coming from the half bath that was right off the kitchen. And I’m, I’m like, he was kind of in the midst of potty training, and I’m like, “Did he actually go to the potty?” And so we go over to the bathroom and, and at first I’m relieved. I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, there’s Chatham. We found him, he’s safe, and sound”, but then I realized there’s this dark ring around his mouth, and I’m like, “What is that? That’s weird.” And then I look, and see his soggy hand with a soggy Oreo, and he is smiling ear to ear, dipping an Oreo in the toilet- (laughs) and eating it. (laughs) And eating it.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: And he was so proud of himself.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: Stay on the road. Don’t veer off the road for the listeners. Okay.

Ashley: Oh, my gosh.

Jim: Wow.

Ashley: I know. And so we like-

Dave: This is why we don’t get invited to speak at parenting conferences.

Ashley: I know. I know.

Dave: …marriage, lots of marriage stuff, but they, they hear these stories, and they’re like, “We’re good on the parenting though.”

Ashley: We’re good, Dave and Ashley. No, but we immediately swiped him up, and cleaned, and were gagging. Everybody’s gagging, but it was, we, we laugh about it now, but it was crazy. It’s just-

Jim: And help me with why that reinforces marriage? (laughs)

Dave: You know, Jim, I’m not sure. (laughs) Um, I think… (laughs)

Ashley: I think honestly, it’s, first of all, having a sense of humor, right?

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: But also being a team. I think just being a team, and handling things and, you know, just getting in there, and tackling things together-

Dave: Well-

Ashley: …because parenting is hard.

Dave: And why we talked about in the book with that story too is when you take your eyes off of something that’s important for too long, uh, it, it’s gonna veer someplace it shouldn’t.

Ashley: Exactly.

Dave: And that happened with our kid, but we see that over, and over happen with people’s marriages where you, you put it on autopilot, you don’t really take time to, to check in, and say, “Where are we? How are we?” You’re just assuming everything’s fine because there’s not this big crisis. There’s not this big explosion, just like we did in that moment where things seemed fine because they were quiet, but quiet doesn’t always mean healthy. (laughs).

Ashley: Mm-mm.

Dave: And you need to be proactive, and lean in, and say like, “How are we doing? Like how, you know, what, what can I do to be a better spouse to you? And are we prioritizing each other enough? Do we need to make sure we have that date night on the book consistently?” Um, and just checking in because left on autopilot, every marriage will crash eventually.

Jim: No, that’s good.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: I will never think of Oreos quite the same way, but-

Ashley: I know. I know.

John: Yeah. Yeah. And, and even in that circumstance, I mean, there’s an, an illustration there, I’m sure of different parenting styles, and how you handle these things because Dena, and I would always approach some of the problems quite differently.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

John: But you, you had the wisdom to go seek out help from somebody because of those differences.

Ashley: Yes.

John: And I thought that was really an important part of, of what you shared because there’s an accountability, there’s a willingness to grow. Um, who did you seek out, and what did you learn?

Ashley: Well, I will just, I’m telling you, this is Dave. Dave had a lot of wisdom because we found ourselves just, you know, really getting along in most areas of marriage, but when it came to parenting, there was a growing resentment, and a tension that we could feel. We weren’t like fighting, and calling names, or anything like that, but just you could feel the tension, you could cut it with a knife. And we just found that we just could not get on the same page with parenting. I was much more black, and white, and Dave was just nicer. And I was like, “Between the two of us is like a balanced parent, we’ve got to figure this out.” But Dave one day came to me, and he said, “Ashley”, he’s like, “Listen, we have, like, I know that we have all these areas of marriage where there’s not tension.” And he said, “But this tension, I just feel like it’s getting, it’s growing. And I, I feel that you resent me. And I hate that.” But he goes, “But I feel like I don’t even know what it is.” And he’s like, and, and, you know, in the conversations we’ve had, I can tell that you feel a bit like you don’t know what it is either. You can’t put your finger on it. He goes, “I have this idea. Let’s pray about, you know, asking God to, to bring to mind a couple that we know that has a, a thriving family, not a perfect family because those don’t exist, but a family that we admire that’s maybe a little bit, like, 10 years ahead of us, and let’s have them over for dinner, and talk to them, and just learn from them.” And I was like, “Okay, I’ll do it.” So, we prayed, we, I mean, God brought to mind the same couple, the same family. And then I started saying, “Oh no, they’re so busy. You know what? We shouldn’t ask them, like, you know what, this is probably not a good idea.” And he looked at me, and grabbed my hand, and he said, “Ashley, you can’t say no for people. The worst that can happen is they can’t do it, and we’ll pray about it, and we’ll, we’ll think of another couple God will bring to mind another couple, and we’ll go from there, but we’re not, we need to do this.” And so we approached the couple at church, and they were more than willing. I mean, they were so honored that we would even ask, and they were like, “We would love to teach you what we know.” So, we had them over for pizza, and spent like two, or three hours just talking through all these issues we’d been facing with parenting. And they gave us new thoughts, and new practical skills to consider, and to use that we had never thought about nor would we have thought about without talking to them. And we went back to them over the years, but it was a real game changer for us.

Dave: Yeah. Just being willing to ask for help, and seek help is sometimes one of the wisest things you can do for any part of life.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: But certainly for marriage, and in marriage, for whatever reason, we just clam up, and we’re like, “No, I don’t want people to know our business. I don’t want that.” And you can’t think that way. You have to think there are people out there who’ve been where we are, who have walked through this, and can teach us what they know, and let’s lean into that. And I’m so thankful that we did and, and that couple, you know, became great friends, and great mentors, and it, it wasn’t like formal. It wasn’t, we were, we weren’t meeting every week, it wasn’t like that, but they were there in our corner from then on, and that made a huge difference.

Jim: Yeah. In that context, uh, you do point out it’s important to create a healthy family culture in this area of marriage and-

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: …it reinforces that, but a place where children even feel like they can be heard, speak to that idea, and maybe you have some traditions in your family that helped you build that culture, but speak to all of that.

Dave: Yeah. I think leaning in with curiosity, the same you do with your spouse-

Ashley: Yeah.

Dave: …instead of leaning with criticism. I think as parents, sometimes we think our go-to needs to be criticized, like, “That’s wrong, I gotta correct it, that’s what parenting is.” But really, we should come alongside as teachers, mentors, that’s what parenting is as well, and say, “Okay, tell me why you did that.” And a lot of times, you’ll hear them answering their own question of why it was wrong that they did what they did, and you can just kind of help lovingly point it out. And if kids know that you’re there with them, and for them, and you want them to win, then they’re much more willing to share their struggles, and their losses with you.

Ashley: Exactly, because we put a high value on honesty in our family.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: And from a very young age, we always told them, “You’re gonna get in less trouble if you’re honest first before us finding out than if we find out.” Because there’s gonna be consequences regardless, but they’re gonna be less if you can just come forth, and be honest. And I think when you put those kind of things in place as a family, it breeds more honesty, right? And so over the years as our kids, you know, got to be young adults, they still come to us, and sometimes, you know, when they’re asking certain questions, my eyes, I have to watch like my face because I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, where is this question coming from?”

Dave: Don’t freak out. Don’t freak out.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: Dave will grab my hand, and he’s like, “This is what we wanted. This is what we wanted.”

Jim: (laughs) Well, this has been a great start. These are great tips. And, uh, what a concept. Do Marriage Better: 7 Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. And we’ve just scratched the surface. We can never cover it adequately, so you need to get a copy of the book. And you could do that just by giving us a call, or connecting with us online. Do Marriage Better. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Whatever you can do, five, 10 dollars is great. We’ll send you the book, we’ll do ministry together, and do more. And let me also reiterate, uh, something you said, John, we have a marriage assessment. It takes about 10 minutes to do. You know, it’ll show your strengths, and then point out some areas you could probably improve in. (laughs) Is that, that’s coach talk, right?

Ashley: That is.

Jim: But it is, it’s quite good. And I think we’ve had like 1.2, 1.3 million people do that, uh, survey. So, join that. It’s free. You can, uh, get some guidance there, and it might start, um, making you more aware of some of these areas that maybe you’re not an A student in. And that’s a great thing. And then also, uh, here’s the thing about supporting the ministry. Last year alone, 530,000 marriages were strengthened, and helped through the efforts here at Focus on the Family by doing a broadcast like this one with the Willis’. It’s just a wonderful way to participate, and that’s the benefit of, you know, getting the book through us and, and providing a donation so we can do this great work. People’s lives are changed.

John: Mm-hmm. And you can donate today, and request your copy of the book, Do Marriage Better, and you’ll find the link to that marriage assessment at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast, or call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you, and your family thrive in Christ.