Preview:
Lysa TerKeurst: What the Lord, I think, wants us to understand is if we want stability in our life, we have to have that coming from Him. And where I wrestled so deeply is I know God is good, but like I said before, I would get confused, “Why aren’t you being good to me in this?” And so I would make all these suggestions to God. “God, here’s what I think a good God should do. You- like do this and do that and do this and do that.” The problem is that I can’t possibly know what a good God should do.
End of Preview
John Fuller: That’s Lysa TerKeurst, and she’s with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly as we explore the idea of trust and what to do when trust is broken. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, I’ve talked a lot about being made for relationship. You know, I believe that’s core to what God has done with humanity. He made us for a relationship with Him first and foremost, and then with each other. It’s one of the reasons, you know, as we climbed out of that whole COVID thing, we got back in the office here at Focus rather quickly because I just felt we’re wired to be together and to work together and certainly have our home life together.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But I… it just didn’t make sense to me to get cooped up in a house, isolated. I don’t know that that is healthy spiritually or emotionally. And that’s part of the battle we have in a bigger context, uh, for us to be wired for relationship. What do we do? It means we’re probably gonna be wounded. Uh, things will shatter our lives. But it is part of the process. And then how do we learn from that? How do we pick up those pieces and keep moving forward? I’m looking forward to our discussion today with a great guest.
John: Yeah. Yeah. Lysa TerKeurst knows all too well, uh, the painful journey through broken trust and she’s gonna share her story and what she’s learned on that path to healing. Lysa’s been a guest here a number of times. She’s always popular when she comes, and you’re about to hear why.
Jim: Always popular (laughs).
John: Yes. Uh, she’s the president of Proverbs 31 Ministries, and she’s encouraged millions of women to find strength in their faith and their relationships. She’s written a number of books, and today we’re talking about, uh, one of her latest called I Want to Trust You, But I Don’t.
Jim: Lysa, I think you speak so effectively, uh, to women particularly, but men too, because you are so vulnerable. You know, and it’s one of the things we miss in Christian leadership is, guess what? We are not perfect. And, uh, it shouldn’t shock anybody. And yet we try to put that on display that somehow we’ve got it all together.
And certainly, you’ve experienced some things in the recent past that have decimated that illusion of perfection, but you’ve managed it with such grace and straightforwardness that it’s been actually quite encouraging to me just to watch and to hear you. So welcome to Focus.
Lysa: Thank you. Thank you. Well, those are such kind words. I appreciate it so much.
Jim: Yeah.
Lysa: And I think to some extent, you know, people say, “You’re so brave, you know, to share your story.” And, um, maybe it does take courage to share my story, um, but also I’m not sure I really had a choice because-
Jim: (laughs).
Lysa: … you know, I was gonna walk through the death of my marriage, and to me, it really was a death. And so, you know, it wasn’t gonna really be possible for me to keep it secret. And unfortunately, you know, sometimes the Christian media is interested in stories that, you know, have a little scandal to it or whatever, you know? And so, I knew that my divorce was gonna become very public. And so, I had a choice. I could either get ahead of it and tell it with truth and grace and with the amount of, you know, emotional angst that was present with this whole thing or I could let the rumor mill tell my story.
Jim: Mm. Yeah.
Lysa: And so I chose to be the one to use my voice to share it.
Jim: I think again, the, the topics that you’re hitting, this idea of trust, we have something called Hope Restored. It’s a marriage intensive. That’s one of the core values that they’re teaching these wounded couples to re-initiate and re-engage and rebuild the trust in their relationship. It seems to be one of the core issues in the breakdown of marriage, that one spouse doesn’t trust the other, or both of them don’t trust each other. Um, speak to what you experienced, uh, in your first marriage, what was happening that eroded that trust. And I think a lot of women and some men too are gonna identify with, “That’s what I have felt like.”
Lysa: Mm-hmm. Well, trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. So you starve a relationship of trust, and you will starve it of vibrancy and potentially you’ll starve it of life. And it’s impossible to repair trust that keeps getting broken. And that was the pattern that I saw in my marriage, and it was devastating.
At first, I think as a Christian woman, I wanted to believe the best so much that I intentionally tidied up things in my mind that I was seeing with my eyes so that, you know, it wouldn’t be true. I just didn’t want what I was seeing to be true. I didn’t want my husband to be having an affair. I didn’t want my husband to be struggling with substance abuse. I didn’t want my family to fall apart.
And so, I think sometimes you can overlook red flags. And I’ll own it. I think sometimes a flag has to be like burning down to the ground before I tilt my head and go, “Huh, I guess that was a little red, wasn’t it?” You know? And so I-
Jim: Let me ask you, and certainly continue with that, but it just strikes me that so many of us could say, “Well, it’s better to err on the side of trusting than to err on the side of suspicion all the time.” And I would think our personalities might play into this as well. Again, whether you’re a woman or a man, but you know, speak to that because it sounded like you were a trusting spouse and then it actually ensnared you. It caught you.
Lysa: Yes. It absolutely did. And I think there’s a big difference between wise trust and blind trust. You know, as I studied the scriptures, because I was really struggling, like, shouldn’t my trust be unconditional? And I discovered, no, trust should be very conditional, you know, based on the choices of the other person. And sometimes distrust is the wisest choice to make.
You know, look, we all make mistakes, and that’s what grace is for. And, you know, I make mistakes, you make mistakes. But there’s a big difference between a mistake where someone breaks your trust and it was a mistake that they broke it and they repent for it and, you know, they say they’re sorry and then they commit to not doing that again, and they also want to walk through the repair process. There’s a big difference between that, that I just described, a mistake, and a repeated pattern of behavior that continues to go on where there isn’t lasting repentance.
Sometimes you can have temporary repentance, but I mean lasting repentance to the point where the other person is willing and capable of making the necessary changes so trust doesn’t continue to get broken, but also that they have the humility to repair the rips in the trust that are there.
Jim: That’s good. And we’re gonna cover so much material this time and, if you’re willing to stay for another day, and we’ll, uh, we’ll also get a little deeper into your experience and where you’re at today.
Let me, uh, mention one of the things you talked about was a brain scan that you did with Dr. Amen. I know of Dr. Amen and, uh, I know some of the work that he does, but describe the physiological impact of emotional trauma.
Lysa: Yeah. Well… So, I wanted to better understand the impact because long after that initial finding out of, you know, his infidelity and walking through that very long process, 10 years to try to work on this, repair this, renewed my vows at one point, you know, all of this. I just knew that the impact had been great. And so I wanted to know exactly what that was.
Jim: Yeah.
Lysa: So yes, I went and had my brain scanned. And I’ll never forget… it wasn’t just a scan either, by the way. You have to do so many cognitive tests and, you know, they’re measuring a lot of things and doing several scans. But when he finally put up the results of my scan, he showed on one side the results of a healthy brain. And on the other side, he showed me a picture of my brain. And what I saw were four lit up spots on my brain. Those are four anxiety centers that stayed lit up whether I was at rest or whether I was active.
Jim: So they were on overdrive?
Lysa: They were on overdrive.
Jim: Yeah.
Lysa: And he pointed out these four anxiety centers and showed how they form a diamond, and he called it the trauma diamond. And it’s a direct result of the betrayal that I walked through. And then he started to describe for me, “Okay, when this is lit up and it’s not calming down, this one right here, this is indicative of PTSD. This one over here, it’s indicative of, uh, catastrophic thinking. This one down here means that you may have a hard time with people’s facial expressions or even cues because you’re always worried, ‘What’s their hidden agenda here?'”
It’s like I’m misreading those. I didn’t used to. Like, I could look at you and go, “Yeah, he’s telling the truth,” you know? But now, you know, because this is always lit up, there’s consequences.
Jim: Right.
Lysa: And I remember standing there looking at that and seeing how my brain has been altered. There are physical ramifications for emotional abuse, and I’ll never hesitate again to say “emotional abuse.”
Jim: Yeah.
Lysa: Whereas before, I was always really scared of that phraseology.
Jim: Yeah.
Lysa: Because it felt like I just didn’t have proof. Now, I wanna say to anybody listening today, you don’t have to go get your brain scanned. I’ve just described some pretty telltale signs of this kind of emotional trauma.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Lysa: And, um, and I just wanna encourage you that it’s not hopeless and you’re not helpless, you know? And that’s one of the reasons why I wrote this book-
Jim: Well, and-
Lysa: … I Want to Trust You, But I Don’t.
Jim: Yeah. And in fact, um, that’s part of the discussion is where hope comes in, where the Lord comes in and your reliance upon Him. And again, we’re gonna uncover a lot of that, but let’s move to the idea of hope and trusting another person. What happens when you give up on hope? ‘Cause I’m sure you experienced that.
Lysa: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And it’s a big thing. Hope carries you through so much-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that you are hopeful that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, even in terrible circumstances. I experienced that as an orphan.
Lysa: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You think, “Okay, tomorrow’s gotta be better.”
Lysa: Yeah.
Jim: And that’s hope.
Lysa: It is. Um, hope is amazing. Hope is also one of the most brutal risks that a person can take because to dare to hope is to look forward to something that if your experience has told you over and over and over and over that it’s not probably gonna go the way that you want it to go, then it starts to feel scary to even hope.
It used to be I truly, before this happened, I was always like, “Worst case scenarios never happen.” And so, I used that though process to better manage what I was… whatever I was facing. So, I remember telling myself, “You know, you can look at this, and chances are it’s not gonna be worst case scenario. It’s not gonna be best case scenario. It’s gonna land somewhere in the middle.” And I used that to manage my hope for my future.
But I think when I went through so many repeated things in my first marriage where worst case scenarios did absolutely happen, and I think that can really start to mess with you. So, I wrote in the book about quietly quitting on hope and here’s how it would play out for me. I would say the right answer. Like I would say, “Yes, you know, I think things are gonna get better. Yes, you know? I think I’m gonna be okay.” But inside my heart, I didn’t believe it, and I was already trying to put things in place like safeguards, walls, um, hesitancies and connecting with people so that I could try to stay a little bit better in control.
I didn’t want to risk hope. I wanted to just know, like, I could say it with my mouth that I hoped for things, but inside my heart, I was already doing the work to manage because I didn’t really think that I should hope for that.
Jim: Let me ask you, you mentioned in the book, uh, this concept of discernment or trigger. And I think it’s really brilliant. You had two similar scenarios that happened involving a rushed goodbye and a suitcase. So, explain that analogy, which I so appreciate the way you bring in these observations of regular life into a spiritual context. You do that very well.
Lysa: Well, thank you. There were many times when my ex-husband would suddenly announce he was going somewhere and, you know, it would catch me off-guard. And he would pack a suitcase, and he would go. And you know, he would say like, “I have a business meeting that I suddenly got called into,” which felt odd, and it always made me uncomfortable. And then once I found out about the infidelity, um, which continued on even after, you know, it was communicated to me that it had stopped. And so, anytime I saw that suitcase coming out, anytime-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Lysa: … that it was like a quick announcement that he was going somewhere and it was rolled away from me quickly, it was so alarming and triggering. And it usually meant that something wasn’t right.
So, here we are, years later, fast-forward, and it took me a very long time after my divorce to even consider dating. But eventually, I met a wonderful man. Um, and spoiler alert, I am married to him today.
Jim: (laughs) And I met him, and he’s a wonderful man.
John: Yeah.
Lysa: He is. His name is Chaz. Um-
Jim: Great name too.
Lysa: I think so too.
Jim: Chaz.
Lysa: Um, so I remember when we were dating, and he would come for a visit and, you know, he was a very, very trustworthy- He had a track record of being trustworthy. But I remember one day he just said like, “Hey, I’ve gotta go back,” suddenly. And, um, we were standing in the parking lot, and I saw him, like, wheel his suitcase really fast, you know, toward his car. Now, in my mind, it was really fast. He was doing what was normal.
Jim: Yeah.
Lysa: Like, “Goodbye,” turned around, pulled his suitcase to the car. But in my mind, it brought back the trauma from the past. And I could not figure out, and I burst into tears, not because he was doing anything wrong, but because that scene was such a close replica-
Jim: Oh, yeah.
Lysa: … of something that didn’t mean great danger from my past. So, I went and talked to a therapist friend of mine and I asked her, “How can I tell the difference between a trigger from past trauma and present-day discernment?” And I thought, surely, she was about to give me a formula. “Here’s how you know it’s discernment. Here’s how you know it’s a trigger.” That’s not what she said. She said to me, “Investigate.”
Jim: Mm.
Lysa: And I… it caught me off guard, and I just thought, “What do you mean investigate?” Then she said, “Ask questions. And how, the person that you’re asking the question of, how they react will tell you a lot.”
Jim: Yeah. Lysa, let me just plow a little bit of something you said a moment ago because I, there’s probably three or four situations in marriage that you’re speaking to. What I mean by that is the infidelity is occurring, you have a red flag, you don’t know what to do, you’re suspicious. We call it instinct, intuition, all those things that we call it. And it’s valid.
And then there’s gonna be the other side of this where maybe out of childhood pain, childhood trauma, other things that have occurred, abuse of some sort, you can also develop those same kind of triggers and it’s not gonna be valid. And speak to that side of the equation where you have a more paranoid fear that has gripped you for whatever reason. How do you dig in and become satisfied that everything’s okay? Um, it, that’s very dangerous ground to walk into, but you need to. How do you do that in a way that’s healing and not hurtful?
Lysa: Well, that’s where we have to work on ourselves, and we have to really address our story of origin, you know? And we have to really figure out… I remember I did a… we have to really figure out what’s going on. I remember, uh, my counselor said something to me when I was going to counseling. Um, he’s a wonderful Christian counselor, and I was going to counseling because I’d been through this devastation in my marriage, and I wanted to deal with how I was wounded. And so, I remember one day he said, “Okay, but let’s talk about what you need to work on.” And I was honestly kind of offended-
Jim: Right.
Lysa: … because I’m like, “Well, I didn’t cheat. You know, so what, like, what do you mean?” And he was like, “Well, Lysa, you know, you’ve been working harder on another person than they were willing to work on themselves, so now let’s work on you.”
And he had me do this exercise where, um, he drew out this big egg shape on a poster board, and he had me divide it up into little compartments. And he told me to draw a little stick figure scene of any time that I had been wounded from my earliest memories. Maybe I had been wounded because someone said something that was deeply hurtful. Maybe, um, it was abuse of some kind. Maybe it was abandonment of some kind, whatever. But just from earliest memory of childhood all the way up to present day, you know, draw these little stick figure scenes. And I didn’t know what he was getting at. And also, I’m not into drawing, so I was like-
Jim: (laughs) So “stick figure” is right up your alley?
John: Yeah.
Lysa: Yes. Yes. So, um, so I did the activity and then he had me stand in front of him and he said, “Go each little scene and just briefly tell me about it.” And I did that. And what he was listening for was a shame script that was consistent that he could hear as we went through the story.
Jim: Mm.
Lysa: And when I finished describing all the compartments of that trauma egg, um, I figured out my shame script had been playing a part in how I process every relationship.
Jim: Interesting.
Lysa: And my shame script was this: “Lysa, don’t inconvenience other people. You are an inconvenience, so don’t ask other people for things because they may disappoint you and that’ll be deeply hurtful, or you’ll have to carry that feeling that you’re just a pain to that person, and also deeply hurtful. So Lysa, you are an inconvenience, so don’t exacerbate that bad feeling inside of you by being an inconvenience to another person.”
Jim: Boy, and that really holds you back from investigation, what you just mentioned a minute ago. I’m just thinking of that script in your head.
Lysa: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You’re going, “Okay, this is me.” So, this is complicated. It’s not-
Lysa: It is. And it-
Jim: … as easy as it sounds.
Lysa: Right. And it would also cause me to be hesitant in my connections. Um, you know, it’s crucial in a relationship that in order for trust to be like woven into the fabric of that relationship, you have to have connection, and you have to have safety. So, what can happen when your trust is broken, sometimes some people, maybe because of their childhood trauma or other personality wirings, whatever, but some people will prioritize connections so high, like they are desperate to keep that relationship even though they are experiencing broken trust or hurtful things being done. But they prioritize connections so high that they diminish their own need for safety. And what I mean by that is they overlook things that they shouldn’t overlook.
Jim: Right.
Lysa: They put up with things they shouldn’t put up with, right?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Lysa: But for me, I think what was starting to happen with me, is I was prioritizing safety so high that I was diminishing connection in the relationships. And so our goal is to bring it back in equilibrium.
Jim: Yeah.
Lysa: We want connections that are safe, and that’s where trust can be found in a relationship.
Jim: And I think for today, we’re right at the end. I think it would be good to put the God capstone on this. And you mentioned it a couple of times, the inkling of distrust for the Lord even because He allowed you to be in the circumstance or allowed these things to occur. If for today we’re saying, “How do we rebuild that trust?” Does it start with yourself? Does it start with the Lord and you’re seeking the Lord to forgive you for that lack of trust you have in Him, or challenge Him with the fist up in the air saying, “Lord, I can’t get over this.”
Lysa: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “Why did you let me down as your daughter?” Just describe that and then fold that into the hope and then we’ll come back next time and dig in some more.
Lysa: Absolutely. Well, I think what I started to realize is ultimate stability is never gonna come from a human-to-human relationship. We can enjoy human-to-human relationships, but we can’t expect other people to never break our trust. Like we can’t build the foundation of this person’s never gonna disappoint me. This person’s never… Those are unrealistic expectations.
Jim: Yes.
Lysa: Interesting in the Bible, the word for trust or trustworthiness is batah, B-A-T-A-H. When it is directed toward the Lord, it’s always in a positive sense. When it’s directed toward other people, it’s almost always in a negative sense. In other words, God understands we are gonna have our trust broken. Obviously, we wanna choose wise relationships where we’re not being emotionally devastated.
But what the Lord, I think, wants us to understand is if we want stability in our life, we have to have that coming from Him. And where I wrestled so deeply is I know God is good, but like I said before, I would get confused. “Why aren’t you being good to me in this?” And so I would make all these suggestions to God. “God, here’s what I think a good God should do. You, like, do this and do that and do this and do that.” The problem is that I can’t possibly know what a good God should do. Like, I am so limited by my own human thinking.
Jim: Well, and selfish, for all of us. Uh, you-
Lysa: And selfish in all of those things, right?
Jim: Yeah.
Lysa: And so, what I have to do is I have to remember God is good and God is good at being God.
Jim: Yeah.
Lysa: God’s plans may be different than mine, but different doesn’t mean that they’re bad. Different can also be good.
John: What a great insight from Lysa TerKeurst today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And I really appreciate her vulnerability as she shares her story and what she’s learned about trusting others.
Jim: She’s so insightful. That’s what I love about Lysa. And there’s more to come next time that you won’t wanna miss. Lysa will explore how our trust issues can affect our relationship with God and how we keep moving forward, which her whole life has demonstrated that.
Let me say that Focus on the Family is also here for you. Our goal is to equip you and provide the tools you need to have thriving relationships. Whether that’s with your husband or wife, your children, your loved ones, your friends, even your coworkers. If you’re struggling and need some guidance, we have a team of caring Christian counselors on staff who can listen to your specific situation, pray with you and offer some direction toward hope and peace. We also have Lysa’s terrific book, I Want to Trust You, But I Don’t: Moving Forward When You’re Skeptical of Others, Afraid of What God Will Allow, and Doubtful of Your Own Discernment. Wow, that is a title.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s full of personal stories and biblical wisdom that will help you examine trust issues in your relationships and encourage you to find healing. You can get that directly from us here at Focus on the Family, and when you do, the proceeds go right back into ministering to others. When you make a pledge today to sustain our ministry to couples and families, and no amount is too small, we’ll send you a copy of Lysa’s book, I Want to Trust You, But I Don’t, as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.
Also, I wanna share this. We recently heard from a listener named Brenda who told us this, “I can’t begin to tell you how much it means to know that Focus on the Family is praying for me and my teen daughter as we walk through some difficult challenges. Over the years, your ministry has helped me through divorce, raising my children as a single parent, and now these present struggles. Whenever I felt like I couldn’t carry one more burden, God has used your resources to renew my strength. Thank you.”
John: Mm. What a wonderful message to hear.
Jim: It is, and Brenda’s thank you extends to you, the donors, because we couldn’t do this ministry without you and we don’t do it apart from you. Every day, Focus on the Family is helping marriages grow stronger, equipping parents, and offering hope to families in need.
If you’re not already part of our Friends of Focus on the Family community, I’d like to invite you to join us during this membership drive. Jean and I support Focus This Way. Our goal this month is to welcome 1,200 new monthly partners who share a heart for strengthening families. Consider becoming one of them.
And we have a really fun campaign. John, you kind of spearhead this, uh, but when you commit to $30 or more a month, we’ll send you a Focus on the Family with Jim Daly travel mug. How do you travel with that thing? I don’t know.
John: It’s… (laughs).
Jim: But along with a four-ounce bag of, uh, our very own coffee blend, and it’s the same one that we use here in the studios with our guests.
If Focus on the Family has encouraged you, uh, or your family, take this moment to partner with us. Your support means changed lives, stronger families, and a brighter future. And if you can’t commit to a monthly gift, we get it and we understand. Uh, for a one-time gift, we’ll also send you Lysa’s book as our way of saying thank you.
John: Donate today, uh, get your copy of the book, I Want to Trust You, But I Don’t, and if you need it, connect with one of our caring Christian counselors all when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
And thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we continue the conversation next time with Lysa TerKeurst, and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
