Preview:
John Burke: If you fall, if you do wrong, you know, just like in the Lord’s prayer, you know, He said, “Forgive us our sins as we forgive others.” He already has paid for that sin 2,000 years ago, which means He already knows the ones you haven’t even done yet. And He paid for those too.
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John Fuller: That’s Pastor John Burke and he’s with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, these can be tough questions, but do you know someone who’s 100% in tune with God?
John F.: Now, this is a tough question.
Jim: (laughs).
John F.: Uh, I’d have to say I know people, I’ve known people who are really close to and they hear God a lot. I’ve never known anybody that’s 100% in touch with God.
Jim: Yeah. I- it’s kinda like who got a perfect score on the SAT.
John F.: That’s kind of like up here, Jesus. Yeah.
Jim: But, you know, hey, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 tells us, “Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances.” I love that because I think we fail to do that so often.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But, “Give thanks in all circumstances for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.”
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, what a great reminder. And it does get difficult. I gotta admit that. We get into squabbles maybe with our spouse, our kids, things chew at us to where did we really get an A+ in how we reflect God’s character?
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: (laughs). Maybe not always, but the good news is, uh, He makes a way for us to repent, to try again and do over those things that we don’t do so well the first time. Today, we’re gonna give you a clear picture of what it looks like, uh, to do life with God, to challenge yourself, actually to deepen that relationship with the Lord so that more often than not, you’re responding exactly the way you should.
John F.: I like the way you put that. And John Burke is the right man to help us unpack this. Uh, he’s the pastor and founder of Gateway Church in Austin, Texas. Uh, he’s married to Kathy. They have an adult son and an adult daughter and he’s the author of a number of books. Uh, one that we’re gonna be talking about today is called Soul Revolution: How Imperfect People Become All God Intended.
Jim: John, welcome back to Focus.
John B.: Oh, thanks for having me back, Jim.
Jim: (laughs). It’s so good to have you. In from Austin.
John B.: In from Austin.
Jim: Hey, listen, uh, obviously, uh, you’re a pastor, but there was a time, maybe even when you were a pastor, which is probably the core of my question, but there was that time when you really struggled with God over trusting Him. I think that’s every believer’s challenge. I mean, “Lord, seriously?”
John B.: There was a time?
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: (laughs).
Jim: If, then, those kind of questions.
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: If you’re so good, then why is this happening to me?
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: And yeah, I, I love that refreshing idea that even pastors, uh, have that challenge sometimes too, even though they know the word really well. So what was the battle for you in trusting God?
John B.: Well, there hasn’t been one. (laughs).
Jim: (laughs).
John B.: They, you know-
Jim: I appreciate that.
John B.: No, I really, I really do think, you know, God is trying to peel us like an onion down to the core of who we are and who He is.
Jim: Why is that? What is His goal in that?
John B.: Well, I think it gets to what He really wants. But I think part of getting to that, He doesn’t force us. He leads us gently.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John B.: Sometimes not so gently. And so my first disappointment, you know, I was not necessarily … I wasn’t a believer. Um, I was an engineer, uh, before I became a pastor, but my dad died of cancer and I remember standing at his grave site and looking at, you know, these two dates separated by a dash.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John B.: And I was just looking at them and I was thinking about how life gets summed up in two dates in a dash. You know, when we’re born, when we die and, and yet there’s this dash in between.
Jim: Yeah. (laughs).
John B.: And what’s the dash for? Right?
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: What are we gonna make of the dash? What’s it really about? And as I was standing there just thinking about that, you know, my dad had, um, kind of defined success the way everybody defines success in our culture. You know, you make a lot of money, you have a great family, you, you know, take great va- vacations and, you know, you’re independent, financially well off and all that. And yet on his deathbed, he had said something to me. He said, “John, I’d give it all back if I could just have my health and my family.”
Jim: Wow.
John B.: And that marked me.
Jim: Yeah.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John B.: And I stood there thinking about that and it actually led me on a journey coming to faith in Jesus and at the same time asking the question, “What is success?” You know? And because the truth is I had these deep longings. We all do. We all have deep longings, we have dreams and hopes and aspirations and I had many of the same, you know? I had a plan. I was gonna, you know, get my engineering degree, which I did. I’m gonna get an MBA. I’m gonna start my own company. I’m gonna have beautiful, wonderful wife who loves me and I love her and 2.3 kids and vacations and tra-
Jim: Right.
John B.: Right? And we all have those. And, and yet, uh, it kinda rocked me too thinking back, but it can all be taken away in an instant. So what is it, what is it all about?
John F.: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah, I mean, that’s really good. Let, let me pull you back a bit, ’cause in the book you also mentioned, uh, an experience with your dad about building a train I think when you were a boy. And that had a good analogy for you. You learned something out of that.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I don’t know why you took so long to come to Christ, John, but-
John B.: (laughs).
Jim: I mean, what was that analogy with the train set and building it?
John B.: Yeah. When I was, you know, I don’t know, maybe eight, 10, uh, my dad got one of those HO train-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … sets, you remember those?
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John B.: … that, you know, electric trains and, but we decided to build a, a Colorado-like landscape. Pikes peak, you know-
Jim: Beautiful.
John B.: We did.
Jim: (laughs).
John B.: And, you know, so we paper mache’d, we sculpted it-
Jim: Wow.
John B.: … we laid out the track. It went through mountains and tunnels and there were, you know, towns and all this, and it was ama- … It took us, you know, I don’t know, five months probably to build it.
Jim: Wow. Yeah.
John B.: And it was awesome. And when it was done we high fived and, you know, we turned it on and it went around and it was, it was just, it was amazing.
But after about a month of watching the train go around and around, it started to lose its interest. And what I realized looking back is that it wasn’t just the train moving and going around that was so wonderful about that, it was me and my dad doing it together.
Jim: Uh-huh, sure.
John B.: It was us making it together. The point for us is that there are a lot of dreams we have, there are a lot of hopes, there are a lot of ambitions. They’re not bad. They’re not necessarily bad. In fact, many of them are good. But many of them are like a finger pointing somewhere, and I believe where it’s pointing is relationship. Without the relationship first with God and then with others, all those other things, they lose their meaning. They’re just a train going around and around.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: Just a dash between, you know, two dates.
Jim: You know, it’s interesting because I think of people who tell the story of having that desire to make a lot of money and become a millionaire by the time they’re 25, 30. And then you talk to some people that have actually done it and they speak about how empty it was. You know, they thought it was gonna be something grand, something incredibly rewarding and filling.
John F.: Right.
Jim: And then they get there and they’re going, “It really didn’t have the impact I thought it would.”
John B.: Right. So that’s one of the things I talk about in Soul Revolution. We all have deep longings. They’re good. I think they’re from God, but sometimes we have shallow strategies.
Jim: Huh.
John B.: In other words, we don’t really understand how are these deepest longings gonna be met, but what if you have all those but you still don’t have contentment? Right? What, what if you still struggle with anxiety and worry all the time? And I know multimillionaires who still worry all the time.
Jim: (laughs). Right.
John B.: They’ve told me. So is there something deeper still. You know, or maybe you want security, you want, you wanna know you’re gonna be safe and secure, okay? And maybe you build a fortress to make sure whatever happened in the past doesn’t happen again, ’cause that’s often where it comes from, but what if you can’t trust people and don’t have intimate relationship? What if you don’t really feel loved? Is that security enough? So our deepest longings, when we start to drill down-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John B.: … they’re spiritual.
Jim: Right.
John B.: They’re what God promises by His Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control, those kinds of things. And our deepest longings only get met when we understand what God’s deepest longing is too. And God’s want, God’s dream is for intimate relationship with you. Let, look at me.
Jim: Yeah, let me get into that a little bit because in the book you talk about God’s longings. I don’t know that I’ve ever thought of that-
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … other than God loves us and God built us for relationship with Him. And … But I didn’t carry it to the next conclusion, which is why did He do that?
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: And that’s your point.
John B.: Well, and if you think about it, you know, if His main desire was to get people to do right and quit doing wrong, if He’s God, couldn’t He make us? Couldn’t He force us to stop doing wrong and do right?
Jim: Right. Autocratic.
John B.: Right. He could. So why doesn’t He? Well, because there must be something deeper He wants. He allows free will even against His will. Why? Well, because you can’t have love without free will. You can’t-
Jim: Exactly right.
John B.: I mean, let’s say, let’s say you fall in love with some person, right?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John B.: And you want them to love you back. You could shower them with gifts, right, with good things, but they might love the gifts, but not so much you still, right? So you can’t actually buy real love. You could try to force them. I guess you could put a gun to their head and say, “Marry me or love me or …” And they might out of fear parrot it, but we would all know that’s not love. Love must be free. That’s true for God as well. And so that explains a lot of why God allows the things He allows in this world and even uses our disappointments to show us what it is deep down we really are longing for as well.
Jim: No, that is so good. You, you know, it’s interesting though because we typically, in the church, will lean toward living a life that’s more perfect, that is, you know, sinless because it’s pretty obvious in scripture that’s the goal. But the irony of ironies is the Lord is saying everything that you’ve just said, that, you know, you’re gonna learn more about me through those valleys that you go through, sinful valleys, right?
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John B.: Well, and-
Jim: And, and we don’t really, we don’t understand that I think as well as we should, that God, we’re not sh- … We tend to think of God as like a grandfather who’s shocked at our behavior that would’ve never thought that you-
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: … could do that.
John B.: Yeah.
Jim: But He knows everything. He knows how we behave as human beings, sinful human beings. Nothing is gonna shock Him.
John B.: And the other incredibly freeing truth is that the life God wants with us is so simple. It’s so simple.
Jim: (laughs).
John B.: It really is. And we don’t have to work real hard. We don’t have to try real hard. You know, when, when my dad said that on his deathbed-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … the reason it struck me is because what someone says as their last words is what, you know, that-
Jim: It’s pointed.
John B.: … that the salient point of life-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … to them, right? Well, you know, Jesus did the same thing. He told us what matters most and it’s one thing. There’s only one thing you have to do as a Christian. Listen up. (laughs)
Jim: Yeah.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John B.: Leaning in. But, but, but think about it. When Mary and Martha, uh, were preparing dinner for Jesus and the disciples, remember?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John B.: You know, and Martha’s busy, busy, and she’s frustrated with Mary sitting there listening to Jesus and Jesus says to her, “Martha, you’re working so hard. You’re so stressed out. There’s only one thing necessary, and Mary’s chosen it.” Okay, so s- just pause. Like, one, only one thing is necessary?
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John B.: Well, we better figure out what that one thing is-
Jim: (laughs) Right.
John B.: … and focus on that. And that is the same thing Jesus was saying His last night on earth. So John 13-17 is actually what I base Soul Revolution, the book, on because Jesus said to us what was most important and it’s the same one thing. So the one thing He said to Mary and Martha was listening.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John B.: Listening to the Lord is what’s most important, but He said it in a different way His last night on earth. So He knows He’s gonna leave. He’s trying to get it across to them. John 15, He says, “Look, I am the vine, you are the branches.” And I, and I believe they’re actually going from the upper room down to the garden of Gethsemane. He, I think He, they were going through the vineyard. He picks up a branch and He goes, “Let me just stick it in your head, guys. It’s this simple. A branch doesn’t have to work hard to produce fruit. All it has to do is stay connected to the trunk, the vine, and fruit happens naturally.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
John B.: “I’m the vine, you’re the branches, stay connected to me and you will bear much fruit. Apart from me you can do… some good things.”
Jim: (laughs).
John B.: No. (laughs). You can build big businesses, you can have great families, you can do this and that, but nothing that He intended. Nothing that gets at the deepest longings. “Apart from me, you can do nothing.” So this would be the one thing. That’s the whole point that I’m trying to get across in Soul Revolution.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John B.: That actually all we have to do is learn to stay connected moment by moment to God’s Spirit and the rest of the things take care of themselves.
Jim: Right.
John F.: And John Burke is our guest today on Focus on the Family. He’s referenced the book, Soul Revolution: How Imperfect People Become All God Intended.
Jim: (laughs).
John F.: We’ll encourage you to get in touch with us for your copy, the details are at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast, or call 1-800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.
Jim: Uh, John, that’s the core of the book, this idea of the 60-60 experiment. So describe what that is and let’s talk about it.
John B.: Well, let me tell you how I came to it.
Jim: Okay.
John B.: Because just like anything else, many times it only comes through disappointment. Trying to get my deep longings met with a shallow strategy and God using that to show me, how do I get what I really want with connection to Him. So when we planted Gateway Church, nothing went as planned (laughs).
Jim: (laughs). And here’s a disclaimer. Normally with the Lord, it doesn’t (laughs) work out the way you think it should.
John B.: Well-
Jim: It’s rare.
John B.: Yeah. And, and we all know that, but when it actually hits, our response is different, right?
Jim: Right.
John B.: You know, so we were supposed to launch in the General Cinema movie theater. We had, you know, built this core group, raised money. We’re, you know, we sent out invitations and mailers and two weeks before, General Cinema Los Angeles calls me and says, uh, “You can’t do church in our movie theater. It’s bad for business.” So I go back to the guy in Austin who signed the contract and, you know, well, he wasn’t supposed to sign the contract apparently. I’m talking to lawyer friends, I’m trying to figure out-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … what to do. We’re gonna have a bunch of people show up in two weeks and no one, we can’t meet. And, um, nothing worked. And finally in desperation, finally (laughs), we call prayer meeting of our core group (laughs).
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John B.: And, and on my way out the door to this prayer meeting, the phone rings. This is back when phones rang-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … you know, and you had to go back and get them.
Jim: You’re right. Yeah.
John B.: (laughs).
Jim: That you didn’t put them in your pocket.
John B.: It wasn’t my cell phone.
Jim: (laughs).
John B.: And, uh, it was a pastor friend in Cincinnati who had this prompting to get someone he had led to the Lord connected to our church who was moving to Austin. And I told him, “Well, I don’t know we’re gonna have church.” And I told him why. And he said, “Well, I think there’s someone in my church who might know someone in the movie industry. Want me to talk to him?” And I said, “Sure.” I didn’t think about it.
Jim: Right (laughs).
John B.: We go and we pray. The next week I was like one desperate attempt. I go back to the movie house in Austin and when I walked in, the guy goes, “Well, you guys have good connections.” I’m like, “What do you mean?” He goes, “You haven’t heard?” He said, “The president of General Cinema in New York called the Los Angeles office and said, ‘Work it out with the church in Austin.’
Jim: Oh.
John B.: So you’re good to go.
Jim: (laughs). That was a good friend.
John B.: Well, it was God’s prompting of my friend-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: … to call me and he knew someone who knew someone, who knew the president. Now, I thought everything was gonna go great. Six months later … Because, hey, God worked it out, right?
John F.: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: But then six months later, we get kicked out and then we had to move to six different locations during two years. Every time we moved, we lost people, we’re reaching-
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: It was so frustrating. I’m like, “Lord, what am I doing wrong?” And I got to the end of myself in disappointment and frustration, and frustration with God.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: ‘Cause He’s not doing His will the way He’s supposed to.
Jim: And look what I’m trying to do for you.
John B.: Uh, look what I’m doing for you.
Jim: (laughs).
John B.: Look what all I’ve given for you. And in that, He started whispering something into my mind over and over when I would start complaining for about a year, but it was the same thing every time. “Am I enough?”
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Mm.
John B.: “Am I enough?” And at first I was mad. I was like, “What? I left my engineering career to follow you into ministry. I left that ministry to come plant a church to help reach people. What do you mean am I enough? Haven’t I showed …” And then I realized, “Oh, I guess not.” ‘Cause the truth is if God, you know, loving God, loving my family, loving the people who are coming and even with the difficulties that come, is not enough, God has to do things my way or I get mad and angry and frustrated with Him. And so what I realized in this, and this is getting to the core of this whole 60-60 experiment in Soul Revolution, is Jesus’ prayer, what He taught us to pray is, “Your kingdom come, God, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” ‘Cause God’s will mostly is not done on earth because we spend most of our time trying to get my will be done.
Jim: Sure.
John B.: And that includes Christians and even pastors. And so I spent a whole year just practicing waking up every morning, surrendering my will and trying to only do God’s will during that day as best I understood it.
Jim: Right.
John B.: And it was amazing.
Jim: Well, and that’s the challenge you put in the book. So let’s talk about 60-60. What, what are you challenging your readers to do?
John B.: Yeah. So it came from that year of this experiment I did personally and the joy I started to feel, the peace I started to feel. A, a deeper love for my children. I mean, these things that I really wanted, it was amazing. And I’m mowing the yard one day and I have, I’m talking to the Lord about it and I’m just saying, “I wish the people in my church could understand how great this life is with you.” And I had the thought do an experiment for 60 days. You know, it takes time to change a habit.
Jim: Right.
John B.: 60 days, every 60 minutes set your, your watch beeper to go off, set an alarm to go off or something to remind you, “Abide in me, remain in my love,” as Jesus said in John 15, you know, “and you will bear much fruit. Apart from me you can do nothing.” So just get him to try it for 60 days and see what happens. And we did it, thousands of people have done this experiment and it’s life changing.
Jim: That’s amazing.
John B.: It’s life changing.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: But it’s what Jesus said over and over, right? Paul said it in Galatians 5, 5:16, “Walk by the Spirit and you won’t carry out the desires of the flesh.” You don’t have to try to stop sinning or try to break that habit or this habit or that addiction. Just walk by the Spirit and you won’t do that. Instead, the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, all that will start to grow.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: “Only one thing is necessary, Martha.”
Jim: Listen.
John B.: It’s, it’s the one thing. So we have to learn to stay connected. So that’s the experiment. And here’s the whole idea. We’re all in the habit. I mean, just think about it. When you wake up on the typical day, how much time do you spend making your plans and thinking about how to get them done versus, “Lord, what are you doing and what do you want me to do in each thought, in each moment, in each decision with, with my coworkers, with my children?” And do we realize how much God loves us and is always with us and actually wants to guide us? That’s what Jesus said in John 16. “I’m gonna send my Spirit. He will always be with you and He will lead you into truth.”
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: “He’ll lead you in the way of truth.”
Jim: You know, John, in that regard, uh, some people that might read the scripture says, you know, pray unceasingly. And you go, “Seriously? How do you even do that? How do you, you know, you, you gotta go to do your banking, you gotta work. How do you pray unceasingly like you’re constantly in a state of prayer?”
John F.: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It has that fee to it like, man, it, it sounds impossible to do every hour, every 60 minutes. But yeah, people … Really, John? I mean, really?
John B.: And that’s what I like to say is that’s not what we’re doing. We’re not trying to beat the Muslims, instead of five times of prayer a day, we’re gonna do 12.
Jim: Right (laughs).
John B.: That’s not it. That’s not it. It is learning to do life with this God who wants to do life with us, who truly loves us more than we can possibly imagine. And God is so good. I mean, this is, this is the thing is we’ve gotta realize how much He loves us. In fact, one little experiment I’ve asked people to do sometimes is to realize that all love we experience is borrowed love. You know, the, this hit me one time when my children were little and you know when your children are little, they’re so cute. They’re so wonderful. But they’re cuter when they’re sleeping (laughs).
Jim: (laughs).
John F.: (laughs).
Jim: Not always, those little cutie pies.
John B.: Yeah. Well, and, and you know, they’re just, they’re just there and there’s just a little angelic face sleeping. And one night I was just watching my, my daughter’s sleep-
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John B.: … and just praying over her and I just had this overwhelming sense of love for her, you know?
Jim: Right.
John B.: Just overwhelming. And in that moment, I heard the whisper of God say, “I love you more.” And it, it shocked me.
Jim: Right.
John B.: I mean, it wasn’t audible.
Jim: Right.
John B.: It was just a thought.
Jim: It came out of left field.
John B.: Came out of left field.
Jim: Yeah. I know the feeling.
John B.: But then I, as I started to ponder it, you know, the Bible tells us God is love. There is no love apart from Him, which means that all the love I’ve ever felt or given is just borrowed love, and He loves me more and He loves you more. Whoever, whoever you are, whatever you’ve done, it doesn’t matter. He loves you more than you love your children, your spouse, more than you’ve experienced love from your grandparents, your parents. It’s all borrowed love.
Jim: Man, it’s so good.
John B.: And the point of that is unless we realize who God is and that because of what He’s done for us in Christ, He did that so we will walk with Him. He didn’t do that just to get us into heaven one day. And believe me, I wrote about heaven. I, I, I know about that, right?
Jim: (laughs). Yeah.
John B.: That’s not why. He wants us to do life with Him in, in this loving relationship. That’s what Jesus was trying to get across in John 15.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you,” right?
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And no greater love than to lay down His life. And abide, He said, in that love. “And you will abide in my love when you obey me, when you obey my commands, when you do what I, what I say.”
Jim: When you listen.
John B.: Listen.
Jim: (laughs). Yeah.
John B.: And respond.
John F.: Mm-hmm.
John B.: So that’s the 60-60 experiment.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: So what I say is it’s not stopping every 60 minutes to pray. It’s not that. If you do that, it’s good, it’s just totally missing it (laughs). What it actually is, is it’s trying to reorient ourselves from a habit of ignoring God most of the day to realizing that God is with us all through the day and loves us and actually wants to guide and help us.
Jim: Yeah.
John B.: And I think what, what helps people is realizing it’s not changing your life, it’s reorienting your life. So in other words, you don’t have to change necessarily anything you’re doing, but do it with the Lord. Think about it this way. You’re already going through life talking to yourself anyway. “Okay, what am I gonna do now? Oh, why’d that person do that? Oh.” You, you’ve got this constant conversation in your head between you and yourself. Just let God in.
John F.: What a great idea from John Burke to stay connected with God every 60 minutes for 60 days. You’ve been listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and I hope you’ve been inspired to take on this challenge.
Jim: You know, the grace aspect John talked about is so important. It allows us to experience freedom in Christ and this is why Focus on the Family exists. We want to encourage you in your relationship with the Lord and give you the resources you need to step out in faith. If you’re having some trouble in that area, whether you’ve been hurt by past relationships or you would like to develop more courage in your faith, we have caring Christian counselors who can give you some direction and get you on a path toward healing. Another solid place to start is the book we talked about today, Soul Revolution: How Imperfect People Become All God Intended. And we’ll make it easy for you. When you pledge a monthly gift for any amount, we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for supporting the ministry of Focus on the Family. And if you can’t afford that, we’ll send it to you for a one-time gift as well. Your continued prayers and financial support allow us to provide much needed help to individuals, couples, and families. Over the past 12 months, close to 500 people each day tell us Focus on the Family has helped them commit or recommit their lives to Jesus.
John F.: That is an incredible number.
Jim: It really is. And we couldn’t do this ministry without you. So if possible, support the ministry today.
John F.: Yeah, do so when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Uh, that’s also the number to reach out to one of our counselors and, uh, to request a free consultation with them. Or stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
