Day One:
Brant Hansen: If you don’t bind yourself to causes or things that are important, if you don’t make that decision, like one woman forever, you will not be able to experience some of this freedom, some of this… the joy, the things that could happen later on. You will wind up with yourself.
John Fuller: That’s Brant Hansen, and he’s our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, helping us better understand God’s plan for men and how important biblical manhood is for families and society. Stay with us for a conversation that’ll both challenge and inspire you. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, I think it’s fair to say a lot of guys today are kind of struggling with aimlessness. What’s my goal? There’s certainly a hyper-feminization of the culture. So, what are we about? You know, as men, what do we do? I think it was Ted Cunningham, the pastor that’s been on Focus, good friend-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … who once said, “The biggest challenge we face is picking our own parking spot.”
John: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) Right? And I think the big reason, and I believe our guest today, Brant Hanson, would agree, that people, men particularly, are struggling is, um, we’re seeking pleasure instead of something bigger. A bigger picture, a bigger cause. Uh, maybe you’re feeling like that and you don’t feel, um, that you’re pursuing significance. Today we’re gonna cover it. The great news is, God has a plan and a purpose for your life that is so much bigger than picking your parking spot.
John: (laughs) Right.
Jim: Believe me-
John: Mm.
Jim: … your life can amount to so much more.
John: Mm-hmm. And Brant Hansen is, uh, heard on more than 200 Christian radio stations. He’s won awards, uh, as National Personality of the Year. He’s the author of a number of books. We’ve had him here before, talking about some of the earlier, uh, titles. This, uh, particular book that’ll make up, uh, the basis for our conversation today is called, The Men We Need: God’s Purpose for the Manly Man, the Avid Indoorsman, or Any Man Willing to Show Up. And Brant is married to Carolyn. They have two grown children and he’s already showed me pictures of his one grandchild.
Jim: (laughs) That’s so good. Brant, I gotta ask you, welcome back, first of all.
Brant: Thank you.
Jim: And, uh, you know, what is it like to be the National Personality of the Year? (laughs)
Brant: Well, I, I’m glad it’s phrased that way because originally in my bio, it was written, he’s won multiple Personality of the Year Awards.
Jim: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Brant: Like, Multiple Personality of the year.
Jim: You… Probably not what you want.
Brant: No.
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: We need to rephrase. So, yeah.
Jim: You know, we’re on… We are on a serious topic today, but I’m sure we’ll, uh, you know, weave some humor into this because it needs to have some humor. Uh, speak to this idea of toxic masculinity. We hear it all the time.
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: How do you define it? I’m not sure if I know how to define it really.
Brant: Well, uh, okay, so it’s this domineering thing where the g- where a man dominates people.
Jim: So, that’s the toxic part.
Brant: I think that’s basically it. But this is… This is one reason I wanted to write the book is because masculinity’s been deconstructed so effectively and so much and so over and over, and some of that’s very helpful to deconstruct, okay, we shouldn’t be this or that, okay, but what’s the construction?
Jim: Hmm.
Brant: ‘Cause it’s, it’s easy to actually deconstruct things. We can do that very easily. I learned that just, like, building a Lego tower, like, to, to build the tower to the ceiling for the kids, like it takes a while.
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: And then they can slap it down in one second and laugh, and it’s like…
Jim: Ugh.
Brant: Yeah, the easy part is taking something down, but does anyone have a construction because guys actually need a vision for how to live?
Jim: That is so good. Uh, my thing was the marble thing. You know, you make the marble-
Brant: (laughs) Absolutely, right.
Jim: … go around all this stuff and drop.
Brant: Right.
Jim: And the kids would come in, they’d run right through it after we built it.
Brant: But but-
Jim: Like, what are you doing? (laughs)
Brant: Same thing with, like, setting up dominoes-
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: … or whatever. But again, it could be… I, I appreciate saying this is not the way to lead a family. Like, if you’re dominating, you’re, you are operating by fear or you’re… There’s plenty of toxic stuff in our culture. There’s no doubt about it.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: But what is the, what is the big picture is-
Jim: Yeah, and I…
Brant: … what we’re trying to get at.
Jim: Yeah, and I appreciate the fact that, you know, it’s easy to tear something down. It seems, politically, one side wants to tear things down, the other side wants to maintain and hopefully make things better. That’s a generalization, I get it. But that… It is easy.
Dr. Dobson used to talk about us being in a, you know, uh, the current of a river and it just keeps pulling culture downstream. And if you stand against it, you’re gonna get a lot of pressure, right? And I think that’s what the tearing down, another way of saying that.
Brant: Yeah, I think that’s right. And I think it’s also really important too because we immediately try to fill in the blank then, un- unfortunately, I think. This is coming from my point of view. We fill it in with the trappings of masculinity, not really getting at the heart of it.
Jim: Hmm.
Brant: So, I wrote this book, I’m not the typical man-book-writer. I have neurological problems. I can’t hunt or, you know, I don’t fish, I don’t… I can’t fix stuff. My wife has a honey-don’t list.
Jim: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Brant: Um-
Jim: Honey don’t. (laughs)
Brant: Just made that up.
Jim: I’ve got the same list. (laughs)
Brant: Yeah, exactly. (laughs) “Please don’t try this.” But there’s a lot of things, like, I, I’m not good at that stuff.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: So if, if we’re told you gotta be climbing mountains or you gotta be hunting elk, you gotta… like, all that stuff is fine. There’s nothing wrong with that, but is that actually the heart of what God wants us to be? So I’m, I’m taking a shot at saying this is what it is in the book.
Jim: Well, let’s go there. What is God calling us to be and what’s the role for men in society?
Brant: I think it is what He gave Adam to do, which is be a keeper of the Garden. I think that’s it. And He specifically told Adam that this is his job. And when Adam failed to do it, Adam was passive and he failed to protect Eve.
Jim: Mm.
Brant: He failed to protect the Garden. And I think a, a man at his best… this is what I’m trying to tell younger guys, guys in general. Like, you are at your best when you are someone who creates a space around you where people are secure. Uh, where the vulnerable get to thrive, where, just like in a garden, there’s species in a garden that they couldn’t survive out in the wilderness, but in a garden they… when it’s well kept, they get to thrive and bloom. And I think that’s my role, that’s who I am when I’m at my best. And women, when they hear me elucidate this, they wanna stand and applaud.
Jim: Yeah. Let, let’s, uh, capture some of what you’re saying there because you use that m- that analogy of the garden from the Garden of Eden. Describe what you’re saying there in greater detail. So, Adam and Eve are created. They’re in the Garden. Everything’s going well. Uh, they’re walking with the Lord in the cool of the afternoon.
Brant: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Sounds pretty good.
Brant: Yeah. And then, I always thought that Adam was way far away, like, naming animals or something when Eve was tempted, but if you read the actual scripture, it’s apparent that he’s right there. He’s with her and he’s doing nothing.
John: Mm.
Brant: And this is a thing, when I talk to family counselors, and it happens a lot in, in Christian families too, but there’s the toxic, domineering male idea. But there’s also a toxic passivity that can happen too-
Jim: Ah, yeah.
Brant: … where you start to check out. I think that’s where Adam is. But when they both blow it, they both sin, when God comes into the Garden, He says, “Adam, where are you?” And I think it’s because I made you to be the protector of this place. I made you to be the one that could… that, that would be the keeper of this garden and you failed to do it. So, that is a failure that I have to avoid myself all the time and I, I… But it’s a task that anybody can do. You don’t have to be great outdoors men to do this. You could be a accounting professor, you could be… you could be a plumber, you could be anything. But once you understand that this is my role, people respond to that.
Jim: No, and it’s interesting, and going back to the comment you made about women who applaud you when you speak about this topic, it’s an insight into what they’re actually looking for.
Brant: Yes, totally. So, the thing that tipped me off to this… And I, I talk about this at the beginning of the book because I want to get guys’ attention. But the best-selling poster of all time, I found in college, it was in every girl’s room in college. And it was at the University of Illinois, this is the late ’80s, but it’s still the best-selling poster ever, and it’s a guy.
And I asked the… I asked the lady, like, “What, what is the deal with this guy? Why is he so attractive?” It’s a picture of a guy, he’s profiled, and I know he’s a good-looking guy. But they’re like, “It’s not the guy, it’s the fact that he’s holding this baby, and it’s the way the baby’s looking at him.” So, it’s just a guy holding a baby. It’s the best-selling poster.
And the baby’s look, he’s looking up at this guy and the baby, you could tell, is vulnerable, is looking to him for protection. And that captured these… every girl’s heart.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: That… It indicates something to me. And the fact that every time when you ask women, like, “What’s the most attractive occupation?”, they never say radio host, unfortunately. They say, “Firefighter”.
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: And so I joke about that in the book. I’m like, it’s guys-
Jim: We’re out, John.
John: Yeah. I guess so.
Brant: Well, it’s, I mean, me too. But it’s like… It’s like… But what, what is… What is really attractive about it?
Jim: Mm.
Brant: I, I joke in the book it’s not the reflective pants, because I tried that. It didn’t… It doesn’t do it anymore.
Jim: (laughs) That was also an ’80s thing.
Brant: Yeah. Right, right, it was.
John: (laughs)
Brant: I tried to move past that. But it’s like, when women respond this way, they find it highly attractive when men create secure spaces around them. And if guys did this role of Keeper of the Garden, there wouldn’t have been a need for a MeToo movement.
John: Mm.
Jim: Yeah, interesting.
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: Let’s move to another area, I think, uh. What is the most terrifying thing that can happen to a man in his lifetime?
Brant: I think it’s looking back and saying, “I never became who I was supposed to be.”
Jim: Wow.
John: Mm.
Jim: Okay. That hits me with a sledgehammer.
Brant: Well, it, it, it’s… But that’s because it’s, it’s resonant for all of us too.
John: Yeah.
Brant: But again, if, if I’m never given the picture of what is masculinity, if I’m never given the box top for the puzzle where I can see what I’m supposed to be doing, I am… I wind up with all these pieces of-
John: Yeah.
Brant: … okay, big truck, I guess, um, you know, good with ax throwing, whatever it is.
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: Those things are fine, but they’re not the heart of this. And what’s wild too about the, the woman’s instinctual respect for a man like this, she’s attracted originally maybe to your muscles, because it looks like you’ll be somebody who’s a protector and somebody who can be s- provide security. But if you don’t provide security, if you are all about your body, you know, just bodybuilding or you just flirt with women or what, she’ll resent your muscles.
Jim: Hmm.
Brant: What she’s attracted to is security. So you can be a guy that’s not… You, you know, you don’t look like you belong on a fitness magazine cover, doesn’t matter. She will find you very attractive if you’re fulfilling this role of Keeper of the Garden. I just find that so interesting. I tell guys, “I don’t want you to do this role just because women think it’s attractive, but that should point you some direction about what we’re actually for and what we are when we’re at our best.”
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: And, and you can use whatever talents you have to do that.
Jim: Well, and I think, you know, some people are going, “I can’t be reduced to that simple a term.” But you… Generally, you’re just saying God put a hole in peop- in women’s heart for this kind of connection and for men to step up to that kind of behavior and that kind of attraction.
Brant: And I’m saying that women are brilliant and they intuitively know what we are for when we’re at our best.
Jim: Huh.
Brant: And so when we abandon that, when we don’t know what we’re for, they will resent that. And they should.
Jim: Mm.
Brant: So-
Jim: Yeah, interesting.
Brant: That’s what I’m saying.
Jim: Explain how a life of commitment is different from a life of insulating from personal connection.
Brant: It will make you grow up. It will provide poetry in life. There is no poetry in life without commitment. And I’m trying to tell guys this too, because we all wanna be free agents, especially in a… in a very consumer successful society. But if you don’t… If you don’t bind yourself to causes or things that are important, if you don’t make that decision, like one woman forever, you will not be able to experience some of this freedom, some of this… the joy, the things that could happen later on. You will wind up with yourself.
So, I’m trying to tell guys that too, like, if… The only poetry in life will come from actually binding yourself to the right causes and people and to God.
Jim: Huh.
John: Yeah. So, you’re not saying it has to be in the context of marriage.
Brant: No.
John: That’s a, that’s a great commitment, but not just marriage.
Brant: Doesn’t have to be in community and o- obviously, like, through your commitment to the Lord, I think is, is where-
John: Mm.
Brant: … all of this profundity is gonna come from.
John: Yeah.
Brant: But when you are in community, and marriage is a, a hyper intense example of community, when you are, it will make you grow up. A real woman will call you out to actually do things-
John: Mm.
Brant: … that you don’t want to do-
John: Yeah.
Brant: … like go to CVS at 2:00 in the morning to go grab something, like, because she doesn’t feel well. Well, a, a fake woman, a pixelated woman on a screen will never ask you to do that.
John: Yeah.
Brant: So, you will remain a boy.
John: Yeah.
Brant: But if you can’t explain to guys, like, why this is better, they can’t… It’s hard for them to put away the childish stuff. Once they have a bigger vision, you can start to go, “Hey, yeah, I don’t want to do this anymore.”
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. My oldest son, as a single, plugged into a church and, and had a commitment to the people there. He got a call at 2:00 in the morning from somebody that was in that group and in trouble.
Brant: Mm.
John: And so, um, that’s kind of a parallel for a single person. Again, I think… I, I’m with you, marriage is huge in that ra- in that way and that… the way it shapes us.
Brant: Yes.
John: But it’s not the only way.
Brant: No, it’s not.
John: Yeah.
Brant: And it’s just a very focused, white-hot, you know, intensity-
John: Deep dive, yeah.
Brant: … uh, furnace to, to change and be, be molded.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Mm.
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and today we’re talking to Brant Hansen about his book, The Men We Need: God’s Purpose for the Manly Man, the Avid Indoorsman, or Any Man Willing to Show Up. Get your copy when you call us. Our number’s 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Uh, Brant, you came up with six decisions men can make that will set them apart in the ways that we’re talking about. Uh, list those for us and then we’ll spend a little time diving into each one.
Brant: Yeah. The first one is about forsaking the fake and relishing the real, which is a huge issue.
Jim: And what are you aiming at with that-
Brant: B…
Jim: … statement?
Brant: There are… There are fake ways to live available to us, um, and have been, especially with video games, especially with pornography escp- especially like-
Jim: Screen stuff.
Brant: Screen stuff, but it’s also, like- it gives you a dopamine hit.
Jim: Uh-huh.
Brant: But it’s not real life. So it’s fake, obviously.
Jim: Right.
Brant: But it will make you depressed because the reason we feel meaninglessness is because we do meaningless things. I’m convinced of it.
Jim: Right.
Brant: I know this from personal experience.
Jim: What… Let me ask you this. I mean, guys that struggle with that… the, you know, this idea of that short-term gain versus a long-term commitment to Christ, to your spouse, to your family, et cetera, it does require decision-making.
Brant: It does.
Jim: You’re at a fork and you gotta say, “This is more important than that.” But so many guys… You look at some of the data, it’s horrific, like, 68% of Christian men-
Brant: It is.
Jim: … view pornography.
Brant: You know-
Jim: I find that, that data point shocking, frankly.
Brant: It’s, it’s… But no one’s ever had this before. No one… No culture, no humans in history have ever had this available like this before. And so, what I wanna say in this book too to guys is, I am sorry. That it wasn’t supposed to be this hard. It was not supposed to be this difficult in life. Guys that… You would live in a village, people knew you, they’re in and out of your house, you’re all building the wall together, you’ve all got a purpose, you all are defending the area, you’re working in an agrarian culture, you’re growing things. Like, you’re…
People know you. You don’t have downtime, you don’t have isolation, you don’t have all this mass loneliness. But I say that because we can feel guilty about the stuff we get caught up in, but I also wanna… I also wanna go, uh, to especially younger guys, like, I’m s- it’s… it hasn’t always been this difficult. And I’m sorry, but there is a better way to live and it’s gonna be from you actually making decisions, not in the moment necessarily. It’s gonna be making decisions about how you structure your life so that you’re around people more and you’re busier.
Jim: Well, and I guess that’s the real question right there is that people… You have to perceive there’s a greater benefit-
Brant: Yes.
Jim: … in choosing this over that.
Brant: Right.
Jim: And th-
Brant: Just like any addiction.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: That… And, and people will tell you, “I can’t say no to this unless I’m saying yes to this other thing that I love more.”
Jim: Uh-huh.
Brant: So, how do you do that if you don’t know what your purpose is, if you don’t have a bigger purpose in life to be driven by? So, what I’m saying is, this is all part of this when I’m trying to paint a picture for a guy to say, look, you’re here to be this Keeper of the Garden with whatever you have, whatever sphere of influence you have, whatever skills you have. They may be, like me, I’m just… I, I’m verbal. I write things, but I use my platform to try to protect people.
John: Mm.
Jim: Yeah, that’s a good point, and, and a good talking point to have with your, your young men today. I hope people are catching that.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Let’s move the… to the, uh, second decision, uh, it is to protect the vulnerable. Uh, you had an amazing experience holding a little baby in Afghanistan, I think it was.
Brant: Well, yeah, that’s a… The first time I went to a, a CURE Hospital… And CURE is, is, they’re all about Jesus, like, uh, healing and then telling the families and kids about, about Jesus. The first time I went, I was… They had me do kangaroo duty, it’s called, and I had no idea what that was. And they sent me to the neonatal intensive care unit and I had to unbutton the top part of my shirt and they handed me a one-pound child to hold against my skin-
Jim: Mm.
Brant: … underneath my chin. And I realized as I was rocking her for a couple… everybody left. I had a couple hours with this unnamed human, because they didn’t think she was gonna live, so what’s the point of naming her?
Jim: Mm.
Brant: I just thought she’s an Afghan woman. She’s sick. She has no money, no identity, no nothing, and I know God loves her.
Jim: Mm.
Brant: And I thought, I wanna be like that. Like, if God is a defender of the vulnerable, if He’s a champion of widows, He’s a defender of orphans, then that’s what a godly man is too, right?
Jim: Should be.
Brant: Should be. So, I was just thinking. But I, I’m not… I’m not jacked, I’m not a big athlete, I’m not a special forces guy, I’m not… those things are all great. I’m not a hunter. Uh, I play the accordion, as a matter of fact, so that should put everything in perspective.
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: Um, I’m not that guy, but what can I do? And it turns out, anybody who wants to show up, you can become a defender of the vulnerable in your own way, in your own sphere. But that, that really ignited something for me, so I’ve been working with these hospitals ever since. And so, for a guy who’s kind of… honestly, I’m a nerd, but I get to be a part of defending these kids with disabilities all around the world in the name of Jesus. And that’s a pretty sweet thing.
Jim: Absolutely.
John: Mm.
Jim: You had another overseas trip, uh, where you had a different experience helping a needy woman. What was that about?
Brant: Oh. Uh, it’s… I failed. I, I wrote about it in the book, but it was a… We were in Senegal in Africa and this woman was chasing us, trying to sell us some, some peanuts, I believe, in a bag on the… on the street. And she was wearing this very long, vividly blue-purple dress, and we drove away because we were like, we’re not hungry. That’s the gist of the story. But I was haunted looking out the back of the van. It’s so dusty and it’s maybe 100 degrees and seeing her desperately chasing after the van, and then thinking, why didn’t I do something? I have, like, 50 bucks in my pocket, like. And, and it, it… I realized that what we do matters, what we don’t do, what we do. And s-sometimes you just have these memories and things that you’re… it’s kind of a kick to the gut-
John: Mm-hmm.
Brant: … because you’re like, “Why didn’t I do that?” I think a lot of people can relate to that, but I, I wanna… I wanna go from there and go, “Okay, so if what I do matters, I need to… I need to show up and not just walk away.”
John: Hmm.
Brant: That’s all.
John: Hmm.
Jim: No, I mean, everybody I think can relate to an experience like that where you missed it.
Brant: Yeah, exactly.
Jim: But you wanna come back and remember to do it-
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: … next time.
Brant: Yeah. And it’s, it’s… I think it’s a… God’s merciful. I know He’s good, so He can take some of that stuff, and make something beautiful out of it in the end.
Jim: Mm.
John: I think I respond to those moments with logic, not heart, and I can kind of justify why, as you did, I’m, I’m not hungry, so I’ll move on.
Brant: R-right.
John: And it takes the Holy Spirit a little bit of time to, to really get to my heart.
Brant: Yeah, me too, me too. And I wanna be ready when those opportunities manifest themselves, because when I… when you redefine yourself as, I’m not a consumer of peanuts, that’s not the point.
Jim: (laughs) The peanuts aren’t the point.
Brant: The point is, how do I bless people?
John: Mm.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: And I protect what’s probably a desperate mom who’s trying to sell something so she can have something to take home to her kids. Like-
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: So anyway, that’s… I, I just wanna be ready.
Jim: You know, Brant, one of the things, there’s so much to do, right? There’s so much we have to be. And as you pointed out so well today, um, so many young men in particular, but older guys too, that have just wandered in this culture of, again, decreasing masculinity, attack on masculinity that people don’t even know what to do. I’ve been on plenty of airplanes where a woman’s struggling to get her suitcase up and some guy popped up and sometimes it goes well, like, she says, “Thank you so much.” Or other times it’s like, “I don’t need your help.”
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: You know? And it’s like this total… You just don’t know what you’re gonna get.
Brant: That’s right.
Jim: And I think in that context, pressing ahead and being that godly man is just the right thing to do, no matter what everybody else says around you, right?
Brant: I think so too.
Jim: And the right person is gonna be drawn to that. Um, for the single guy, that’s great. I think a, a very engaged, single woman might say, “Wow, he’s the kind of guy I’d like to find.” The question is, in this culture today with all the things we’ve talked about with screen time and kind of, um, an imposed separation, young men sitting in their rooms doing things they probably should not be doing, how does a woman, a young woman find this kind of guy? Where is she gonna find this guy that’s out there looking out for the vulnerable somebody who knows what their mission is?
Brant: Well, I have a horribly self-serving idea, but that’s… Voice this book on him, because I… Or at least the first chapter-
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: … or at least tell him about the first chapter. Because again, when a guy realizes that this is actually what he’s supposed to be and that women find it attractive and it actually makes his heartbeat faster because at a deep level it resonates with him-
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: … you’re gonna be able to call that out of a man as well. My wife shapes me when she says, “Wow, when you did that, it was really attractive.”
Jim: Well, that’s an interesting concept. Either be shaped now, or if you get married, she’ll shape you then and it’ll be a little more difficult.
Brant: Well, if you put this in… If… As a parent or as a wife or as a… as a potential wife, like, you’re putting this picture in front of him, like, I see things in you, and you’re complimenting those things that you do find attractive when he does the right thing, that’s a great way to shape him. It’s not nagging.
Jim: Right.
Brant: It’s positive.
Jim: Right. But I mean it’s what we all say, “Our wives make us better people.”
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, I totally believe that. It’s true in my life with Jean.
Brant: So-
Jim: She makes me a much better person.
Brant: My, uh… Recently there’s some kind of brouhaha going out in the street in front of our house at about 11 o’clock and I don’t know if it was a bunch of teenagers or college age, I don’t know what was going on. But it was like they’re wrestling or figh- And they’re… It’s a big group of kids, not normal. And we were upstairs in bed and I’m like, “Don’t worry about it. They’re just goofing around.” Sh- My wife’s looking out the window and she’s worried about it. And I’m like, “Well, just turn the, the noisemaker up, you know, whatever.” So, she was bothered. She actually went downstairs.
Jim: Oh, no. (laughs) That’s the worst outcome!
Brant: Now I’m lying in bed. Exactly. That’s exactly right.
Jim: (laughs).
Brant: So, I’m lying… I’m prone, inert, you know-
John: You’re, you’re Adam, totally passive.
Brant: Right.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: Doing nothing. So I’m like, I can’t do this. I can’t… I just wrote a book about this. Like, I can’t do it. No, like… What am I supposed to do? Well, I just went downstairs, I put my c-, you know, got dressed, went out the door to go confront, whatever. And as I’m going out there, they all dispersed and I don’t even think it was because of me. I think they probably already were dispersing.
So I just turned around and came back in the… in the house and my wife said, “That was really attractive.”
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: And I said, “I didn’t even do anything. I just walked out the door.” She’s like, “Yeah, but you were willing to.”
Jim: Oh, that sounds like fun. (laughs)
Brant: Yes. Well, just, just the willingness.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: It, it, it spoke to my wife-
Jim: Mm.
Brant: … that she is reassured that if needed, I’m going to be the Keeper of this Garden. I’m not going to be passive about it.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: And that’s so… When… Again, when I’ve… When I’ve talked about this around women or been interviewed on shows where a woman’s part of the interviewing, they are like, “This is exactly correct.”
Jim: Yeah, of course, of course.
Brant: As far as what we want from men.
Jim: It’s attractive, like you’ve said. This has been really good. It’s just to start. We got more of those six decisions. We’ve covered two. We’ll come back next time and do the four… the additional four.
But what a great book to get. I’m thinking about reading this with Trent and Troy-
Brant: Mm.
Jim: … uh, just to make sure that base is covered. Do you know exactly what it means to be a man? And, you know, in so many ways, we use scripture rightfully to do that. We teach them. We… Man, almost, uh, two, three times a week I’m shooting scripture to the boys, saying, “Check this verse out and…” You know, it’s just the basics. But to really go deep-dive and talk about these six decisions, make sure your sons and you as a father are really grabbing hold of these things, because it does make your life much more rewarding and much more fulfilling.
Get a copy, as we often do. If you can, uh, contact us here at Focus on the Family and make a gift of any amount, maybe a monthly gift that’ll help us with our budgeting process. That’s a great way to support the ministry. It’s how Jean and I do. I know it’s how you and Dena do as well.
John: We’re signed up as well.
Jim: And, uh, you know, that way, uh, it’s steady and we can reach more and more people in the name of Christ. One time gift is great as well, but we’ll send you a copy of Brant’s book, The Men We Need, as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.
John: Yeah, donate generously as you can and request that book when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Hey, Brant, again, thank you. Let’s come back next time and keep it going.
Brant: Awesome. Thank you.
John: And on behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team here, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Brant Hansen: Masculinity’s been deconstructed so effectively, and so much, and some of that’s very helpful to deconstruct, “Okay, we shouldn’t be this or that.” But what’s the construction?
John Fuller: Uh, great question from Brant Hansen and he joins us again on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Last time we had a wonderful conversation with him about living out your true calling and purpose as a man. And today, we’ll hear more of his insights and thanks for listening. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, it was a great discussion yesterday with Brant and you know, the thing that caught me is this idea of tending the garden, right out of Genesis. The fact that Adam kind of looked the other way while Eve was being lured in, and he was standing nearby, according to scripture.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: He didn’t step in and kind of defend her and aim things in a more godly way. And you know, we all suffer from that poor decision that Adam made. It’s called a sinful environment now because he disobeyed God. And what a beautiful, uh, analogy to bring that forward, and teach each of us men how to be, uh, the healthier Adam.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: The better Adam, the “tender of the garden”, Adam.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that means your marriage, your household. If you’re a single guy, developing yourself and aiming for something that’s more meaningful than the dopamine hits we get from gaming and pornography and those things that take us down. I thought it was really powerful.
John: Yeah, it was a very proactive, engaging conversation, and Brant is an author and radio host. He’s heard on over 200 Christian radio stations. He’s authored a number of books. And today, we’re focusing on The Men We Need: God’s Purpose for the Manly Man, the Avid Indoorsman, or Any Man Willing to Show Up. And of course, we have copies of that book here at the ministry.
Jim: And John, you missed one of the biggest points. He won Personality of the Year.
John: Oh, yeah.
Brant: (laughs).
John: He got a special parking spot, I’m sure.
Jim: (laughs) I’m just- I’m just fixated-
John: (laughs)
Jim: … on that.
Brant: The irony is I don’t have that much personality. That’s …
John: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) No, I think it’s just such a great little award-
Brant: It’s funny, yeah.
Jim: … you know?
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: You said last time they gave it … what was it, you said?
Brant: Well, they, since I’ve won more than one, they said I’ve won- I won multiple personality of the year awards.
John: (laughs)
Jim: (Laughs) I just love that.
Brant: Yeah, I’ve- like, “You got to phrase that differently.”
John: Different iterations of Brant get different awards.
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: It’s so great.
John: And you know, for the listener, they might remember you being on the program. You do struggle with autism.
Brant: Yeah.
John: That’s something that’s part of your life.
Brant: Yep.
John: And you’ve really done such a fantastic job overcoming-
Brant: Well, thanks.
John: … those obstacles. And you’re an author and, I mean, you’re a radio personality so you- you’ve done well. Well done.
Brant: Well, thanks. And, uh, I think it’s one reason this book is different than maybe a lot of man books.
John: Huh.
Brant: I’m hearing that. It’s biblically-based and whatnot because I’m … I’ve got neurological problems, being on the spectrum, like my eyes move back and forth. I have a thing called nystagmus. It’s pretty profound. I have to move my head to negotiate for that, so it’s very obvious to people when they first meet me. But that kept me from … Like, I can’t do axe throwing. You don’t want the guy-
John: (Laughs) Yeah, right.
Jim: I can understa- … I wouldn’t volunteer to be, uh-
Brant: Yeah, don’t bring me to your church axe throwing night with guys.
John: (laughs)
Jim: … receiver of your ax throwing.
Brant: Right. No. How about not?
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: We find you something else to do? Like … So, coming at it from that angle for guys that aren’t into that stuff, like to be able to say, “Everybody’s welcome here.” When people say, “Guys need to stand up and be guys,” like, what do you mean?
John: Hmm.
Brant: Cause for a lot of us, we don’t, I can’t play football. I can’t do the thing with, again, like special forces stuff. Like I couldn’t qualify for the military. I can’t … So what, what does masculinity look like then for all of us?
John: Mm.
Brant: And I think there’s gotta be a deeper thing that underlies, and I think this is it. I think it’s the keeper of the garden thing that Adam was given to do specifically by God.
Jim: Yeah. And I so appreciate that. And it definitely will guide my conversations with my young adult sons now that are in their early 20s.
Brant: Yes.
Jim: And we’re gonna have that talk, and use that metaphor, and apply many of these things. Uh, last time we talked about forsaking the fake world of technology, to relish what is real, and investing in relationships. Which again, everybody struggles with generally, but the younger generations particularly are really struggling in that area. The second one was protecting the vulnerable.
Uh, if you missed it last time, go back and listen again, get the app for the smartphone, whatever you need to do. Call us and we’ll, uh, send you the download so you can hear it.
Let’s pick it up with the third decision that you’ve encouraged guys to make, and this is a biggie, uh, “Be ambitious about the right things.” Uh, why do you think so many men are dissatisfied about the regular world if, I could call it that? Is it about their choices, or what’s going on for them to have such dissatisfaction with “normal”?
Brant: I don’t think they have any idea what they’re supposed to be doing, and what would actually be life-giving to them-
Jim: Huh.
Brant: … and to the people around them. They don’t know. So they have to be told, just like we all are … can be trained into things. This is what it … this is called discipleship, but you have to give people a picture for it. What I find a lot of guys, though, left without being told wisdom about what it means to be a man, to be a keeper of the garden. Absent that, you just go towards whatever the culture is pushing on you.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: And it can be various shades of things that are offered. But the problem is if you’re ambitious, even if you’re like, “Well, I’m gonna- I’m gonna work hard, and make a lot of money, and so on and so forth, be a good citizen.” Like, okay, but let’s say you got little kids in the house now. Is it all about your work now? Because you need to be … Being ambitious isn’t enough. It’s being ambitious about the right things. And what I’m trying to say, for example, in that scenario is, you need to understand life is in seasons. And right now is little kid season. This is it. So you make decisions based on that. You have to be … This is what wisdom is. It’s knowing what’s valuable versus something else.
Jim: You said you made perhaps one of the best right decisions when your kids were young when-
Brant: I totally did.
Jim: … all that happened.
Brant: Out of all the dumb decisions I made-
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: Seriously, like, I tell people this too, I nailed this one.
Jim: (Laughs).
Brant: So, I had a very stressful job. I was doing talk radio.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Brant: It was three hours a day of arguing about politics and whatnot, and I was fairly good at it when … The ratings were fine, but stressful. Well, I thought, “You know what? I’ll go to law school just to shift gears and do something less stressful.” So I went ahead, got into law schools and stuff, got some really sweet offers and stuff. But I was talking to my lawyer friends who said, “When you get out of law school, you’re gonna have to take a job at a big firm. You’ll be home one evening a week.”
Jim: Wow.
Brant: And so I took a job that paid almost nothing, and we moved the family down to South Florida at the time. But I was done with work at noon every day and since we homeschooled the kids, I had every afternoon to play with them. And mainly, I played. I should have helped more with the homeschooler-
Jim: (laughs).
Brant: … you know, I mostly just took them to this pool to the beach, played-
Jim: You’re the PE director.
Brant: … Laughed. Yeah-
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: … that’s what I was. Thank you. Good call. Um, but I know my kids.
Jim: Mm.
Brant: And then later on, guess what? My career was fine later on when I had more time.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Brant: And that was a brilliant move.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: We did not have much money. We were stressed out a little bit about the money thing, but honestly, God provided just enough the whole way. And I would never trade that.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Boy, think of that. That’s a big statement.
Brant: Totally.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: So I don’t have those regrets. Like, but it’s so important to ask God, I’m telling guys this, like, to understand what’s a value and what’s not right now. And that’s a big part of being ambitious about the right things.
Jim: Yeah. And I think, you know, guys find it hard to figure out where that trigger is, you know? So, if I’ve gone to business school, just fill in the blank, whatever-
Brant: Right.
Jim: … education you have, or vocation, let’s include those folks that aren’t going to college. And they’re getting on the fast track to do their vocational trade. It’s hard to manage that. And you think it’s, the number one thing is, “We need resources, financial resources-“
Brant: Understood. Yeah.
Jim: … “to pay the mortgage to feed the kids, to get them to school” stuff. And especially in this environment, with hyperinflation and everything we’ve got going, it may not even show up on the screen. “What if we were to do less, I have more time with the kids.”
Brant: Yeah. Well-
Jim: “And we’ll have to stretch every penny.”
Brant: Yeah. For some people, this is impossible. It’s like they’re just in a financial situation. You can’t do anything. But for most people, I don’t think that’s true because of the buying decisions.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: And you wind up serving this ca- … Like, why do I have to have this nice truck?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Brant: Why do I have to have this nice car? Am I James Bond or something? Why can’t I drive a ’87, like, Corolla if I have to?
John: (laughs) Yeah.
Brant: I can.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: I can. So, there are decisions a lot of times that I can make that will free us up from stress and allow me to enjoy my wife and enjoy my kids before it’s too late because you do not get those years back.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What’s so interesting is your example, what you did, the one right thing (laughs) you said that you did.
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: There’s not a plethora of those examples. There’s plenty of examples of men who chose career.
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: And we can list what the outcomes of their family life was like. Typically: divorced, remarried, maybe divorced twice, remarried, who knows?
Brant: Well, if they were given a vision of being a keeper of the garden, this is your actual role in this world. So these people around you need to thrive and bloom. You’ve been entrusted with these humans. You’re not about- all about domineering them, you don’t own them, all that sort of stuff. What you do as a loving father and husband in this scenario is like, “These people should … I’m gonna make sure that they can thrive.”
Jim: Mm.
Brant: They get to bloom. I will defend them. I will create a secure space for them, and part of that security is knowing that you’re there.
Jim: So that’s being ambitious for the right things. That’s the third one. The fourth one now, make women and children feel safe, not threatened.
Brant: This is a big thing, because a lot of us will pat ourselves on the back. And I’m- again, I’m talking as a married guy here, but a lot of us will pat ourselves on the back and say, “Well, if an intruder ever came into my home, I would defend my wife against him. I would do whatever it takes to defend.” And most of us would. That’s good. The problem, and I read this account in another book, but I had to put it in mine too because it’s like so honest. The guy’s friend was just said, “You know, the problem is most of the time, that doesn’t happen. But the intruder is me, with my words-”
Jim: Right.
Brant: “… with the … Like, my wife has to guard herself against my attitude, my words, my lack of involvement, my lack of security, my hurtfulness.” You can pause and hurt your wife. If she says, “I love you,” and you’re like, pause, “Yeah, I love you too.” Like, it’s all about even the slightest things can be a curse to somebody.
Jim: Mm.
Brant: So, what I’m trying to say is to guys to rethink that scenario where, “Well, I- I would defend my wife.” Okay, start with your presence and your words. And when you see that, it’s not a guilt trip, because a lot of guys can be hearing this and going, “Oh boy, you know, I guess I’ve blown …” Like, no, no, no. It’s an opportunity. We can change.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: Starting today.
Jim: I- you know, for our Hope Restored program, this is the main thing they talk about-
Brant: Huh.
Jim: … is security.
Brant: Huh.
Jim: That women need security, and they need to feel that from their husbands. You know, one of the things too, I don’t even realize this at times. I mean, I’m a pretty big guy. I played football. And sometimes when I’m talking to the boys or to Jean, I mean, Jean will say, “Whew, you’re coming off a little strong right now.” I don’t even know it.
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: Honestly, you don’t even know.
Brant: Me too.
Jim: You’re kind of, woah, and, you know, getting up for the big game, I guess.
Brant: Me too.
Jim: And she’ll be able to talk me down a little bit. Uh, I didn’t even realize it.
Brant: Mm.
Jim: I didn’t know I was being aggressive.
Brant: Yeah. And I get all lawyerly-
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: … and-
Jim: That’s too bad.
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: (laughs) And insistent in whatever, and my wife has had to make me aware of that. And now-
Jim: But those are threatening things, right?
Brant: Exactly.
Jim: I wouldn’t think that, especially if I’m up against another guy, and we’re in the weight room talking.
Brant: Right, right.
Jim: You know?
Brant: You don’t think it, at all.
Jim: Yeah. This is the way we banter.
Brant: But this is my garden.
Jim: Right.
Brant: And these are the species in my garden which I love. And again, I want them to thrive and flourish because they knew me. I want them to flourish because they knew me.
John: So when your wife calls you on being lawyerly, is it against the backdrop of, “I know your heart but right now,” or- or does she tend to be a little firmer on that?
Brant: She’s pretty firm. Um, my wife’s brilliant and she’s also direct and firm. Um, but, I mean, she’s right. So I have to- I have to be able to be willing to- to understand she respects me more when I’m embodying this thing that I’m talking about here about being a source of security.
John: Yeah.
Brant: People are drawn to that too because everybody’s so insecure now. This is men, women, everybody, children. But to have somebody who’s not anxious, somebody who’s at peace, somebody who’s not angry, uh, who is secure, people are drawn to it because there’s just not much of that.
John: Mm.
Jim: Yeah. Uh, protection and safety, I mean, it goes beyond the physical needs. We’ve alluded to that, how we speak, the posture that we take. Um, how did Jesus model this for us with His statements and His actions?
Brant: Yeah, I wrote a-
Jim: I mean, whipping the tables, that’s pretty aggressive.
Brant: (Laughs)
Jim: Right?
Brant: Well-
Jim: But then asking the questions of the woman at the well. It’s pretty gentle.
Brant: Yeah. I write one chapter called “The Jesus Masterclass on How to Treat Women.”
Jim: Mm.
Brant: And there’s several things that He does.
Jim: Oh, give them to me.
Brant: It’s very honori- … Well, uh, just an example, like the- the Jayrus or Jairus, I don’t know how to pronounce it, but he’s the head … he’s like the head guy at the synagogue. So he’s a big shot, important guy. His daughter’s sick. Jesus puts him on the back burner for a woman who wasn’t even supposed to be there-
John: Mm.
Brant: … in the crowd, who’s bleeding, and is embarrassed, and unclean. And Jairus and his retinue had to be like, “Wait, her? Why?” He elevates her. You’re not supposed to do that in that culture. You don’t even do that in this culture very often where you’re like, bump a woman who’s considered unclean above an important guy. Or when He has- He’s at Mary and Martha’s, and Mary comes in and sits at His feet. Or she’s in the living room, sitting on the floor, probably they all were with … That’s where the guys go. Like I’ve been in cultures if you travel-
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: … there’s cultures where you don’t see the women of the house. They stay in the kitchen, and they pass the food underneath the curtain, where all the guys are sitting in the main room or they have the kids bring out the food and set it down there.
Jim: Huh.
Brant: Mary’s like, “No, I’m going to learn from this man.” He was doing something revolutionary by saying, “You’re welcome here, and this is a very good idea.”
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: Like there’s a- there’s a- a million ways that Jesus subtly and not so subtly elevates women and respects them in a lot of ways that we just don’t even think about.
John: Hmm. Well, you’re hearing today from Brant Hansen, and he’s our guest on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Uh, the book that forms the foundation for this conversation is The Men We Need: God’s Purpose for the Manly Man, the Avid Indoorsman, or Any Man Willing to Show Up. Get a copy when you call us, our number’s 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by our website, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Brent, becoming a godly man is, uh, all wound up, I think, in point five, which is, um, choosing today who you wanna become tomorrow.
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: I like that. Um, for the guys that are feel- feeling guilty right now, or maybe the wives that are listening, saying, “Oh, Bob’s not gonna like this.” Um, there’s always tomorrow. I mean, the Lord gives you breath-
Brant: Right.
Jim: … and you wanna wake up and do things better. So speak to that idea of having a plan for correcting those things that aren’t tending the garden.
Brant: H- well, here’s the plan, and I like that it’s hopeful. Again, like you said, this isn’t about beating ourselves up because we’ve failed and wa … We didn’t know sometimes we didn’t know exactly what we’re supposed to be doing sometimes, and we were also … we make mistakes.
Jim: Uh-huh.
Brant: The plan is this, you’re gonna become whatever you’re paying attention to right now.
Jim: Huh.
Brant: That’s it. What you pay attention to is who you’re gonna become and you do pay attenti- … You pay to attend things. Your brain can sit and attend to this or that, but that’s shaping who you’re becoming.
Jim: Yeah. I think it was the late Larry Crabb, who we had on the program many times here at Focus, who said, “Line up 100 men, watch them closely for a week. 70 or 80 of them will be ruled by a passion called neediness.”
Brant: That’s right.
Jim: What was he driving toward there? I think I get that, but what’s the difference? What is the neediness that- that 80% are looking for, and what’s the opposite of that?
Brant: Still trying to achieve significance on their own.
Jim: Through?
Brant: Through whatever.
Jim: Tick some off for me.
Brant: Something. Well, like, uh, career achievement, money, uh, sex-
Jim: Cars.
Brant: … like, yeah, attractiveness. Like, it could be a million different things. But, like, that they’re still not secure as men just comes bleeding out, especially in a workplace environment where there’s like, why is this so competitive or fear-based or something? Like, what- this is just a weird thing? It’s because people are still trying to … They’re- they’re still needy.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: And to get to a point where, again, you start paying attention to the right things, I’m talking about bringing the Lord into your mind, growing, listening to things that are wise, paying attention to wisdom, like, being around the right things, paying attention to right thing, you will become a more secure person.
Jim: Yeah. No, it’s so true. I, you know, so many, uh, wealthy people, wealthy men that I’ve met, they tend to, especially the non-Christian, I think Christians tend to do this better, not perfectly, but better. Um, where they’ll say, “You know, I was aiming for that next deal. And I just told myself, ‘If I get that next deal that’s gonna give me X amount of money, I’m done. I’ll be fine.'” And then what they find is when they get there, uh, it’s really the next deal.
Brant: Right.
Jim: It’s like a deal junkie, you know? They-
Brant: Right.
Jim: They’re never gonna have enough, it won’t be the perfect deal, therefore we gotta move to the next deal to get that satisfaction-
Brant: Or just-
Jim: … or that significance.
Brant: … just needing complimented-
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: … all the time, needing this for that, for what … Here’s wonderful thing that C.S. Lewis was talking about. He said, “You really have to watch when you’re younger because you’re on a trajectory.” So a little attitude, he called it a grumble. If you’re a grumbly person when you’re 25, people are like, “Okay, well, it’s- you know, it’s all right.” But you, you’re on this trajectory, you wind up when you’re older, you become just a grumble.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: Like, we become more and more a caricature of what we’re fostering in our lives.
Jim: Interesting.
Brant: And it’s like, I mentioned in the book, like, you- you will … If you’re off by one degree for a moonshot, you miss the moon by 3,100 miles-
Jim: Right.
Brant: … because of the trajectory of things. So that’s why I think a lot of older people, you can look at this person and say, “Man, he’s- he’s a saint, he listens, he offers wisdom, he’s- … Everybody just loves being around him.” Or you can see the anger on somebody’s face, they become nothing but anger, and they’re-
John: Mm.
Brant: … they’re at the grocery store, hitting you with their shopping carts. It’s like you become this extreme thing that you were fostering when you were younger.
Jim: You know, Brent, let me ask you this in the context of your old radio days, doing a lot of political commentary. That’s an environment where … I mean, you do get angry.
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: Cause people seem like they’re not thinking (laughs) I’ll be polite.
Brant: Right.
Jim: The word stupid comes to mind. But policies that are put in place, kind of the things that aren’t helpful for the most people are put into place. And I mean, you look at public education, all the things that are going on-
Brant: Absolutely. Right.
Jim: … there, what’s being taught. You can gin that anger up to where you’re really behaving as poorly as those you’re opposing.
Brant: Or, here’s another thing that happens, and I think it’s more subtle, especially I see this with older folks, and I’m getting to be one of those older folks.
Jim: (laughs)
Brant: We need you to be at peace. Like we need you to be the voice of the family or the voice of your neighborhood, the voice of your church, where you’re thinking in terms of the kingdom of God.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: But if you’re sitting there basting in propaganda, whatever the propaganda is, whatever the news is, whatever … If you’re watching that all the time, you’re not gonna be that person.
Jim: Mm.
Brant: And now we’re missing you. And people need older people with wisdom in the culture, but you’re like so awash in this stuff. And I know the news of the day is important. I know all this stuff is. It’s true. But we need somebody to offer some peace and a lack of anxiety. Instead, you’re anxious now because you’re sitting there, like, getting all ginned up.
Jim: Well, and, I mean, yeah, I’m thinking nobody’s tending that garden-
Brant: Right? (laughs)
Jim: … Of politics. My gosh, it’s overgrown, it’s weed-infested, it’s gnarly. But we need to be Christian men, and do the right things, and do it with the right attitude. Um, the key, though, is the alternatives to that neediness that we were talking about a minute ago. If we could take that from 80% to 10%, how would we do that, uh, to get men focused on the right things again?
Brant: Well, this is … Uh, I’m taking a shot with writing this book. Like I don’t know.
Jim: Yeah, I mean, you wrote the book, not me. (laughs)
Brant: I- I really don’t know beyond that. Like to try to explain, I think this is God’s vision for us. I think women respond the way they do because they intuitively know it is-
Jim: Mm.
Brant: … to be a keeper of the garden, to be a source of security. For the vulnerable around us. Your neighborhood should be safer just because you’re there.
Jim: Let’s move to decision six, uh, take responsibility for your own spiritual life. Seems right. (laughs)
Brant: It is. But if I were just looking at that chapter, I’d be like, “Okay, here we go. It’s the old, you need to do this and that.” I- it’s actually good news. It’s not a guilt trip, again, for guys. I’m saying for a lot of guys, they associate spiritual because our culture does this with emotional. So, a lot of guys feel left out or they’ve done something wrong with God, they don’t even understand the whole thing. It doesn’t compute. If you’re more analytical … This can be for more analytical women too. That’s definitely me. I don’t respond emotionally to a lot of stuff that other people do. Like a certain song, everybody’s, “Wow,” like we went to the chorus, and we modulated up, and now our-
Jim: (laughs).
Brant: … hands are in the air. Like I’m sitting watching them like, “Yeah, but they do that the Journey concert too. Like-
Jim: (Laughs).
Brant: “… when they modulate or they hit that chorus again.” So I’m always analyzing.
Jim: Right.
Brant: Maybe I’m too skeptical. And I’m, okay, so it’s … But what I’ve realized, reading the stories of people in the Bible is … Spiritual isn’t about emotions. Being spiritual is about loyalty.
Jim: Huh, faithfulness.
Brant: Yeah, faithfulness to God. You just keep showing up.
Jim: Yeah. That’s the fork in the road, as we’ve talked these last couple of days, that decision tree that’s always in front of us as guys. Do we look at this? You gotta say yes or no.
Brant: Yeah, just- just-
Jim: You know, and loyalty and faithfulness is what should drive you to God.
Brant: And when you understand that, when guys understand that-
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: … we’re like, “I can do that.”
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: Like I get it. Guys, this is part of … if you’re in the military, you have a job or, like … to people around you. Like, I can keep showing up, but God deserves my believing loyalty.
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: And that daily thing where it’s like, “I’m going to partner with God in life,” like Abraham.
Jim: Brent, let’s wrap up right here. I mean, these are great concepts. I’m actually quite excited to talk to Trent and Troy about this.
Brant: Hm.
Jim: I don’t know if it’s gonna be drip irrigation or Niagara Falls.
Brant: (laughs)
Jim: I’ll have to make that, “Yeah, we’re gonna sit down and read this book together. Let’s do it.” But the concepts are great and the vision is so strong about being the Adam, tend the garden, protect Eve, protect your children, help the vulnerable, all the things that we’ve talked about these last couple of days. But I- I am thinking of the guy who’s maybe in his 60s, maybe older, who is looking back going, “I really … This is the first time I’ve really heard this.”
John: Mm.
Jim: “I did chase the money.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “I did go through two marriages.” Whatever it might be, how would you encourage him? What- what would you say to him to pick up today and move forward?
Brant: It’s not too late. And in fact, somebody … Repenting is what we’re talking about, rethinking. Somebody who repents or rethinks gets humble when they’re in their 60s-
Jim: Ah.
Brant: … or 70s, it’s more impressive.
Jim: It is.
Brant: All I can say to somebody who’s listening and going, “Well, I wish I would have thought about this before. I wish I would have had that idea before, but I didn’t think about that. I didn’t live that way.” All I can tell you is much respect to you for saying, “But now, I will.”
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: I just have tons of respect for that. So that’s all I have to tell you. (laughs)
Jim: You know, it- it’s interesting. I’m thinking of something someone once said to me about the Holy Spirit, that evidence of the Holy Spirit in a Christian’s life is a changed heart.
Brant: Yeah.
Jim: Changed actions. That’s the thing that really is the evidence.
Brant: And it’s continuing.
Jim: He was this, and he’s now this.
Brant: Right.
Jim: That’s a changed heart.
Brant: How impressive is that? Where do you see that anywhere else in the world where- where-
Jim: (laughs) Right.
Brant: … in your 70s, like, “You know what? I realized I got to do this, and now I’m gonna serve people in this way better.”
Jim: Yeah.
Brant: Like that alone makes me believe in God even more.
John: Mm.
Jim: Yeah. And it’s so good. Brant, you’ve done a wonderful job with this book, The Men We Need, and I think it is one of those resources that every dad, A, should digest, and every husband, to be able to be that garden tender, uh, and hopefully not miss the way Adam did miss.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s the goal.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, then to teach your sons what it means. You know, I hear from so many Christian parents who have daughters. I’ve not been blessed with a daughter.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I wish I had one, but I don’t. But how they say, “Where are the Christian guys that my- my daughter can marry?”
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that’s my job-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … with two boys. I’ve gotta help prepare my sons to be the husbands they need to be.
John: Yeah.
Jim: And this is one of those resources.
John: Mm.
Jim: So if you can, like we often do, if you can, uh, join us and be a part of the ministry, make a gift of any amount. A monthly gift is best for us. That’s how John and I both do this-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … with Focus. We support Focus monthly. Uh, but a one-time gift is good as well. Uh, we’ll send you the book as our way of saying thank you if you can support us that way. If you can’t afford it, uh, we’ll get it in your hands as part of the ministry here at Focus on the Family. We believe in the content that much and what Brent has to say here. So just ask for it, and we’ll get it to you. And, uh, most importantly, apply it-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and we’ll have a different world.
John: Yeah, contact us today. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or visit focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Next time, Dr. Gary Chapman explains how to make a better apology.
Dr. Gary Chapman: So, what I’m suggesting is this, that each of us has a primary apology language. One of these five speaks more deeply to us emotionally than the others. Now, we would appreciate any of these, but if you don’t speak the primary language, chances are, in my heart, I’m asking, “Are you really sincere?” I mean, “I’m sorry” is not enough for me.
