Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One

Preview

Lee Strobel: Can you imagine for just a moment what the perfect father would be like? Just imagine, what would he be like? Oh, well, he’d be gracious, he’d be kind, he’d be your biggest cheerleader. He’d be your biggest encourager. He’d, he’d pick you up in his lap and give you a hug, say, wi… That is the picture of your Heavenly Father.

End of Preview

Jim Daly: Right.

Lee: Your Heavenly Father’s not just a magnified version of your earthly father. He is, uh, fundamentally different. He is the perfect father. He is the father who you long to have for eternity.

John Fuller: Well, that’s Lee Strobel reflecting on the question of whether God is real. And Lee is here with us today on this Best of 2024 episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.

Jim: John, I always enjoy having Lee on the program, uh, just so capable. I love his testimony of being a atheist journalist and then-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … coming to faith in Christ. It’s, it’s one of the most awesome stories, and it just builds the veracity of what scripture’s about and how a life is changed. And he’s down to earth about it too, which is also great.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, sometimes it’s a challenge to explain our beliefs, especially when opponents are saying that God and science can’t coexist, science is winning the day. We’re bombarded by that message-

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jim: … you know, each and every day. But when you peel it back a little bit, I’ve started to realize, ah, I think it’s the opposite.

John: Hmm.

Jim: I think so much today, science is proving God actually does exist. And you hear it in small ways and sometimes in thunderous ways. But even the big bang, what does that mean? Before was nothing and all of a sudden something was. And we’re gonna talk about these great concepts today with Lee Strobel. He’s written the book, the title Is God Real?

John: Hmm.

Jim: That’s the number one question of humanity.

John: Yeah.

Jim: It’s what everybody asks. We get a lot of marriage and parenting questions, but the number one question we get is still, is God real?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, this’ll be a great two-day program.

John: Yeah. Lee is such an engaging person to talk with, and, uh, he’s a bestselling author. He’s been on this broadcast a number of times. Uh, we always get a big response from our listeners. Uh, he currently serves as founding director of the Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at Colorado Christian University. And today, as you said, Jim, we’re talking about his book, Is God Real?: Exploring the Ultimate Question of Life. And of course, we have that book here at the ministry. Get a copy, uh, when you call us, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Lee, welcome back.

Lee: Thanks so much and always great-

Jim: (laughs)

Lee: … to be with you. I love hanging out with you guys.

Jim: It’s so fun. It’s kinda like just sitting on the couch-

Lee: (laughs)

Jim: … talking, right?

Lee: It is.

Jim: Which is so much fun. And you-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … make it so easy. Thank you.

Lee: Well, thanks.

Jim: You know, really, thank you for continuing to be a humble guy. You know-

Lee: Hmm.

Jim: … you might say, “Well, I’m really not if you talk to me wife.”

Lee: I got a lot to be humble about. I mean… (laughs)

Jim: But no, seriously, you are one of those key Christian leaders that has really demonstrated, you know, I’m just a guy.

Lee: Well-

Jim: And the Lord loves me, like He loves you. And you’ve had a lot of notoriety. And so often-

Lee: Mm.

Jim: … Christian leaders fall-

Lee: Ah.

Jim: … in that spotlight because-

Lee: Well-

Jim: … pride gets ahold of them.

Lee: Well, I, I-

Jim: And thank you for not letting that happen.

Lee: That’s very kind of you to say. My wife keeps me in line, you know? (laughs) We’ve been married for-

Jim: Well, that’s a truism for all of us.

Lee: … 20 years.

Jim: Right?

Lee: That’s true.

Jim: (laughs)

Lee: And, uh, she, she never lets me forget-

Jim: (laughs)

Lee: … that, uh, we started out as, uh, we met when we were 14 years old. We grew up together, so to speak, and-

Jim: Came to Christ-

Lee: Uh-

Jim: … kinda together.

Lee: Came to Christ, she was first. She was first. She kinda led me, um, into an investigation that I discovered that Christianity’s real, that God is real. And, um, but she keeps me anchored.

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: She travels with me. She’s, uh, she’s my best friend.

Jim: You know, Lee, for those that don’t know your background-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … just a couple of sentences on that.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: You’re, you’re, you were a hardcore atheist.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: Everything was materialistic to you.

Lee: Right.

Jim: You’re a journalist, investigative journalist-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … so it had to be w- what can I see, what can I touch, what can you prove to me.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: Which does give your testimony so much more veracity-

Lee: Mm.

Jim: … so much more honesty to it ’cause you weren’t looking for something supernatural.

Lee: No. (laughs)

Jim: You were the opposite guy.

Lee: Exactly. My wife came to faith through a neighbor who was a Christian nurse who became her best friend and who took her to church and answered her questions. My wife was agnostic. And, uh, I’ll never forget when she gave me (laughs) the bad news that she had become a Christian.

Jim: Yeah, right. You were angry.

Lee: Angry. I, I, I’ll tell you something I don’t tell normally, but I was so mad, first word that went through my mind was divorce. And she had just planted a flower garden in our backyard, and I was so mad. It was time for me to mow the lawn, so after she told me, I was so mad, I went outside and I mowed down her entire flower garden. And she went out there-

John: Oh.

Jim: Remember that humble thing I said a moment ago?

Lee: Yeah. (laughs)

Jim: I’m taking that all back.

John: Wow.

Jim: I mean, that’s a changed life right there.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: That’s the kind of guy you were.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: When you look at that, I mean, again, you put all the investigation aside, the rigorous scrutiny of the resurrection of Christ and those things we’re gonna talk about-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … but who can take that away from you? You are a different person.

Lee: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think of 2 Corinthians 5:17 talks about, you know, when you come to Christ, you’re a new person. The old is gone, the new has come. And I look at the direction my life was headed, I was a hedonist. I thought, “If there is no God, if there is no judgment, if there is no Heaven, if there is no hell, if there is no, uh, ultimate accountability, best way to live is to pursue pleasure.” And so I lived a very immoral, drunken, profane, narcissistic life. I mean, that’s who I was.

Jim: All right. Let’s get into this book, Is God Real?.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: I mean that, that’s a heady title to be the author of.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: And in that context, I mean, you really do believe if a person comes with an open mind, not predetermined-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … to battle you-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … but even in that case, that’s okay. But with that open mind, you think a fair-minded person will put the pieces together if they’re seeking the Lord.

Lee: You know, the Old Testament in Jeremiah, the New Testament in Hebrews, both say, “If you sincerely seek God, you’re gonna find Him.”

Jim: That’s exciting.

Lee: Yeah. That’s exciting. And I think the key is a open-hearted, open-minded investigation. When I started my investigation, I did a couple things. I said, “Number one, I’m gonna do this like an umpire in a baseball game. I’m gonna call a ball a ball and a strike a strike-

Jim: Hmm.

Lee: … and just let things play out the way they should. Uh, number two, when I have gathered the evidence, I’m gonna reach a verdict. N- I’m not gonna do this forever. When the evidence is in, I’m gonna reach a verdict.” And the third thing I did, and this’ll surprise you I think, I prayed. I was an atheist, and the prayer I prayed was, “God, I don’t believe you’re there. In fact, I’m sure you’re not, but if you are, I wanna meet you.”

John: Hmm.

Jim: Wow, that’s great.

Lee: And I figured, what have I got to lose? 15 seconds, 10 seconds of a prayer. And if God is real, then it changes everything.

Jim: Yeah. Why do you think, uh, this question of God’s existence is something humans have, A, pursued for so long? And I guess when I look at it, one of the most profound statements I’ve ever heard on that, you look at all of humanity around the world-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … and you find religion.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: You find five major religions. Most of them, I’d say all but one, are typically things you do to get to God.

Lee: Right.

Jim: You pray five times a day a certain direction-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … and, you know, you live a very, um, kind of rigid lifestyle.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: And therefore, you will achieve Heaven. I believe Christianity is the only religion, if we use that term-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … that is evidence of God reaching out to us.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: That always convicted me-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … and it seemed to be the right thing when God’s the one doing it-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … not us trying to do it.

Lee: Yes. Uh, e- every other religion is based on the, the, uh, do plan. You gotta do a bunch of things to try to earn your way to God. Christianity is spelled D-O-N-E. It’s done. Jesus died on the cross. It’s finished. And it is a free gift of God’s grace. That makes it distinctive among all the world religions. Um, God offers forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift of grace.

Jim: Well, and the positive construct there is that we’re all looking.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: You know, we’re coming up-

Lee: Well-

Jim: These are isolated areas that maybe-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … back when these religions were started, there wasn’t a lot of exposure to Christianity. But, but people’s hearts-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … are turned toward God. That’s the fundamental truth.

Lee: You know, it’s funny, um, the reason I wrote this book is, um, my publisher actually came to me and said, “We discovered something interesting, our tech people.” I said, “What?” He said, “We’ve discovered that 200 times a second around the clock someone on planet Earth is typing into a computer search engine basically the question, is God real.”

Jim: 200 times a second.

Lee: 200 times a second. And I thought-

Jim: Wow.

Lee: … “If there’s then…” It goes with what you’re saying. There’s this, there’s this innate, uh, desire in us to find, what is our purpose, who is our creator? Are we, am I alone? Is there a future? Is there an afterlife? Is there more than this world that I see and touch? And, um, so I thought, “My goodness.” And yet, as you say, the percentage of Americans who believe in God is now down to its lowest ever, 81%. And yet at the same time, we’re seeing a lot of young people with curiosity about faith, with, um, uh… I, I have a friend whose ministry is to travel the country and to speak to groups of high school and college students. He said, “I’ve seen more teenagers come to faith in Jesus Christ in the last three years than in the previous 18 years of ministry combined.”

Jim: Wow. And why?

Lee: It’s because I think the emptiness that people feel when you extract the belief in God from a culture, uh-

Jim: Huh.

Lee: … people feel that and they say, “Are we without an anchor? Are we without hope? Is this all that there is?”

John: Mm-hmm.

Lee: You know, if God does not exist, if God is not real, we don’t have free will. We have no afterlife, no hope for anything beyond this world. Uh, there’s all these implications that flow out of that. And I think people, when a culture begins to slide in that direction as our culture has, then people begin to say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Um, is there any hope? Is there anything I can grasp onto that can give me something beyond this world?”

Jim: Well, and in that context, I mean we as Christians become very fearful-

Lee: Mm.

Jim: … when we see that slide, yet at the same time it may be the very ingredients that God is going to use for revival.

Lee: Exactly. We’re seeing-

Jim: I mean, that’s the irony. We’re-

Lee: Exactly.

Jim: … “Ah, ah.”

Lee: Yep. But we’re seeing these things-

Jim: But then God’s the ban-

Lee: … around the country, these little-

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: … little revivals breaking out and-

Jim: Colleges.

Lee: Y- y- yeah. And we see that, um, I saw one ministry had 20% more young people come to faith last year than the previous year. So there are these good signs that are going on, and I think it’s incumbent on us as followers of Christ to help young people, uh, recognize that we have a faith that is not based on make believe, wishful thinking, legend or, um, that kinda thing, but it’s built on a solid foundation of historical and scientific truth.

Jim: Mm.

Lee: That is what this book is about.

John: Wow. Lee Strobel on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And, uh, we’re just getting into some of the content of this terrific resource, this book that Lee has written called Is God Real?: Exploring the Ultimate Question of Life. It is a, a fantastic book. We have copies here at the ministry. Uh, find out how to get yours, uh, when you give us a call, 800-A-FAMILY. 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Lee, uh, as a journalist, I mean you set up interviews probably over your entire lifetime-

Lee: Yeah, right.

Jim: … even after becoming a Christian.

Lee: Right.

Jim: So you’re drawing from interviews that you’ve done over the decades.

Lee: Right.

Jim: One person that caught me, and you mention in the book, a PhD in philosophy, uh, Bill Craig.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: And something that he called the Kalam argument.

Lee: Yes, Kalam cosmological argument. Sounds, fancy title-

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: … but it’s a simple argument.

Jim: Yeah. But I, I love this. This is like Occam’s razor.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: You know, take everything to the extreme and is it positive or negative.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: And that usually indicates, you know, what, what is true.

Lee: Right. (laughs)

Jim: So in that context, Kalam’s, uh, argument, what, what is it?

Lee: It’s very powerful. And, and I’ll tell you what, Jim, if I were still an atheist, this single argument for the existence of God would convince me that God exists.

Jim: Huh.

Lee: This would all I need.

John: Hm.

Lee: It’s very simple. It says this. Number one, whatever begins to exist has a cause. Number two, we now know the universe began to exist. Therefore, the universe must have a cause behind it. Now, you think about that. What kind of a cause can a bring a universe into existence? Well, number one, it must be transcendent because it had to be, uh, uh, separate and apart from creation. Uh, number two, it had to be eternal or timeless ’cause it existed before physical time came into being.

Jim: Right.

Lee: It must be immaterial or spirit ’cause it existed before physical things were created. It must be powerful, given the immensity of the creation event. Must be smart, given the precision of the creation event. Must be personal ’cause He had to make the decision to create. Must be creative ’cause my goodness, just look at the wonders of this universe. Must be caring or loving ’cause He fashioned a habitat for us to flourish in. And then Occam’s razor, the scientific principle that says, “Don’t manufacture causes to explain an effect beyond what you need.” You just need one God, so there’d be just one creator. So what have we got? Transcendent, eternal, spirit, powerful, smart, personal, creative, caring, unique. That is a description of the God of the Bible.

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: And you go, that’s, that, this is such an airtight argument that n- no skeptic has been able to shoot it down. And, and Bill Craig, who was popularized, who has two PhDs, um, one of the top philosophers in the world, uh, he’s done debates with, with major philosophers around the world on this topic. And it is-

Jim: Hmm.

Lee: … a powerful argument that, again, just became particularly potent in the last few decades because it used to be that until now, uh, scientists thought the universe always existed.

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: Um, but, but Christians always opposed that and said, “No, no, no, wait a minute. According to the Bible, it began to exist at some point in the past.” And that’s exactly what science tells us.

Jim: And it is both interesting and it should not be alarming that the deeper science goes, the more that we see-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … of God’s nature and God’s universe.

Lee: Exactly.

Jim: It does lean and push us toward believing that there is a creator if-

Lee: I think-

Jim: … you’re fair-minded about it.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: I saw the Time magazine when, uh, the big bang was, you know, finally kinda resolved.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: Yes, there was the big bang. And they said all of matter may have existed in the size of a golf ball.

Lee: (laughs)

Jim: And what was interesting is that scripture talks about the entire universe being in the hand-

Lee: Yeah. (laughs)

Jim: … and we’re made in the image of God.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: So I mean, you could put that together.

Lee: Of, of course. I mean-

Jim: A very subtle point.

Lee: Yep.

Jim: Debatable, of course, but that in the palm of God’s hand, whom we are created in the image of-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … everything existed.

Lee: Yeah. It’s remarkable.

Jim: Wow.

Lee: And, and then you look at the way the universe is finely tuned, that, in a way that, that, uh, defies the explanation, oh, it’s just a coincidence. Oh, it just happened by chance. No, it didn’t. I-

Jim: List some of those things, ’cause-

Lee: Okay.

Jim: … it’s pretty remarkable.

Lee: Well, I’ll give you a couple that are my favorite. Uh, the force of gravity, we all know what that is. You drop something, it’s gonna hit the floor. But the force of gravity could’ve been set anywhere along a continuum. If you pictured a ruler across the entire universe and, like, 20 billion light years broken down in one-inch increments, that rec- represents the, plausibly, the range along which the force of gravity coulda been set-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Lee: … anywhere along that ruler. And yet it’s set at the exact right place so that life can exist. What if we changed it? What if we changed the force of gravity one inch compared to the 20 billion light year width of the universe? Intelligent life would be impossible anywhere in the universe. I’ll give you one other example that is probably, thi- this one will just blow your mind. Uh, it’s the ratio of the electromagnetic force to the gravitational force. Now, that’s a complicated deal, but here’s what you need to know. That is finely tuned to one part in 10,000 trillion trillion trillion.

Jim: Unbelievable.

Lee: Unbelie- Now, how do you, how do we visualize that? Well, the astrophysicist, uh, Hugh Ross said, “Here’s an ec- here’s an illustration. Imagine a continent the size of North America piled with dimes all the way to the moon, 238,000 miles.”

Jim: (laughs)

Lee: Okay, you got that? Picture it in your head.

Jim: I got it.

Lee: Okay. Now picture a thousand North Americas with dimes piled up to the moon, okay. Now picture a billion continents the size of North America with dimes piled 238,000 miles up to the moon. Now take one dime and spray paint it red and mix it among the, the billion continents piled up to the moon, and then take one person and blindfold them. And say, “You can reach in one time and you can pick out one dime.” What are the odds it would be that dime that had been spray-painted red?

John: Hmm.

Lee: The odds are one chance in 10,000 trillion trillion trillion.

Jim: Eh, I mean some people, and I’ll get your response to this-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … most rational people will go, “Okay, that’s overwhelming-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … evidence for order and-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … intelligent design and-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … a creator.” There will be someone, a skeptic-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … that says, “Yeah, so we found the one dime.”

Lee: (laughs)

Jim: I mean that’s almost insane.

Lee: Yeah. You know, I asked this, I asked a scientist that. Um, h- he’s a PhD from UCLA and a professor of physics at a major university in the Midwest, secular university. And I asked him, “What are the odds that this coulda happened just by happenstance?”

Jim: That one dime.

Lee: That one dime. And he looked at me and he said, “Well, we scientists have a term for that.” I said, “What?” He said, “Ain’t gonna happen.”

Jim: (laughs)

Lee: It’s just impo- Uh, whe- when you reach numbers like, and remember, keep in mind, that’s just one dial. There’s 50 to 100 of these dials.

John: Hmm.

Lee: And when you get to those numbers, you can say, “It is impossible.”

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: It is impossible. And so i- if you just take the, the origin of the universe that we talked about, if you look at the fine-tuning of the universe, how does anyone who studies this come to the conclusion that there is not a supernatural creator behind it? I don’t know.

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: ‘Cause it would convince me as an atheist.

Jim: You know, it’s int- interesting, I remember when we did the Truth Project, we t- filmed, uh, Dr. Berlinski. I think he was mathematics at Stanford University at the time. But he said, you know, “The dirty little secret between the biology department and the math department is we don’t each lunch together ’cause we don’t agree with their models, like evolution. Just mathematically, there was never enough time for that to occur.”

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: And I thought that was… And he said-

Lee: That’s interesting.

Jim: … you know, “People will say to me, ‘Oh, that, you have that bias because you’re a religious person.’” He said, “I’m not.”

Lee: That’s right.

Jim: “I’m agnostic.” But-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … there is no way-

Lee: (laughs)

Jim: … mathematically speaking-

Lee: Just-

Jim: … that that happened. And it kinda points to your-

Lee: Exactly.

Jim: … truth seeker.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: Uh, eh, speak to that for a moment, though, in this culture where, eh, herd mentality-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … seems to have consumed us now with technology.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: You had the quarantine, you had… You know, people just moved in a herd.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: And when it comes to worldview-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … and understanding things, it seems like we’ve lost so many people saying, “Wait, wait a minute, what about…”

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: You know, kind of the skeptic-

Lee: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: … in all areas.

Lee: Right. And that’s true. And, it, it is easier today to come out as an atheist than it is to come out as an Evangelical Christian, for sure, in our culture. I mean-

Jim: ‘Cause there’s so much support for it.

Lee: So much support.

Jim: Pats on the back.

Lee: Exactly. When I was an atheist, you never told people you were an atheist back then-

Jim: Right.

Lee: … in the 1970s. Are you kidding?

Jim: Think of that turn.

Lee: Oh, people would think you’re a pedophile or something. You di-

Jim: Right.

Lee: … you just didn’t say that. Uh, now it’s the in thing. And so our kids go off to college, um, and they hear things and are, are challenged in their faith by a professor. And they come at Thanksgiving and say, “Ah, I’m not so sure I believe this stuff anymore.”

Jim: Yeah. Lee, we have painted the picture. Let’s go, you know, we talked about the universe-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … and all of that. Let’s go microscopic-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … because, uh, Jean did chemistry degree, my wife.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: And this morning early when I was reading the prep and going through the book, uh, one of the things you captured in there which is stunning, and of course, my wife said, “Yeah, I knew that.”

Lee: Yeah. (laughs)

Jim: Which is in every cell in-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … the body, 100 trillion cells we have-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … generally.

Lee: Right.

Jim: I’m not counting your cells, John-

John: (laughs)

Jim: … but you could do that later.

John: Yeah.

Lee: Not gonna do that.

Jim: A hundred trillion. Um, but within each cell, there’s six feet-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … of DNA.

Lee: That’s right.

Jim: I was like-

Lee: In every cell.

Jim: … “That blows me away as an MBA.”

Lee: Yes.

Jim: (laughs)

Lee: Yes. It’s, it’s remarkable.

Jim: I said that to Jean and she goes, “Oh, yeah.”

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: I’m like, “That’s unbelievable.”

Lee: It is unbelievable. If you open any cell in your body, a cell, and unwind the DNA, it’s six feet tall. And here’s the thing. Embedded in that DNA is a four-letter chemical alphabet that spells out precise assembly instructions for every protein out of which you’re made. So in other words, just like English uses a 26-letter alphabet to spell out words, uh, DNA uses a four-letter chemical alphabet to explain how to-

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: … create us, how, how to-

Jim: How to make a heart.

Lee: … how to make a heart.

Jim: How to make a liver-

Lee: Exactly.

Jim: … a skeletal system.

Lee: And it’s just, it-

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: … there is more information, there are more words in every cell in your body than in 200 years of the Sunday New York Times, in every cell in your body.

Jim: Hmm.

Lee: And the question is, where did that come from? Because every time, without exception, when we see information, there’s always an intelligence behind it. So, uh, nature can produce patterns. We know that. I live in Houston, uh, a lot of times, and… a lot of my time, and if you go down to Galveston Beach on a, on a morning and the sand is wet, you can see ripple marks in the sand. And it is logical to say that the waves made those ripple marks. Why? Because nature can produce those kinda patterns. But if you’re walking down the beach in Galveston at dawn and in the wet sand you see John loves Mary and a heart around it and an arrow through it, you wouldn’t say, “Oh, the waves created that.”

Jim: Right. (laughs) Those are smart waves.

Lee: Yeah, those are smart waves. They’re intelligent.

Jim: (laughs)

Lee: That’s right. There has to be an intelligence behind it. So whenever there’s a computer code or a book or a painting on a cave wall, there is always, always, always an intelligence behind it.

Jim: Let’s end here. This is kind-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … of whiplash, so I wanna prepare the viewers and the listeners.

Lee: (laughs)

Jim: We’re gonna end with this question because I think it’s setting up for tomorrow’s discussion-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … which I’m looking forward to already.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But, uh, you said Easter, and you’ve mentioned this in the opening-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … that basically, the resurrection of Christ is the defining moment.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: That Jesus could’ve claimed to be the Son of God, but if there was no resurrection, there’s nothing special-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … other than a really good human being that lived a good, good life and-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … taught many good things.

Lee: Right.

Jim: The resurrection is it. You once interviewed Hugh Hefner-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … from Playboy-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … about this content. And, uh, what did he have to say about the resurrection? I can’t believe you asked him about it, but-

Lee: Yeah. (laughs)

Jim: … the resurrection of Christ to Hugh Hefner.

Lee: I actually got to interview him in the Playboy Mansion about his bel- beliefs about God. It was a, I used to have a TV show, a national show called Faith Under Fire. And they got-

Jim: Yeah, no kidding.

Lee: Yeah, no kidding.

Jim: There’s example of it.

Lee: Right. So here he is in his traditional si- silk pajamas and smoking pipe. And, and I said, “Well, um, what do you think about the resurrection of Jesus?” And he looked, his eyes got wide, he said, “Oh, well, if the resurrection is true, my goodness, it, it knocks over a series of dominoes that lead to all kinda wonderful things. It means that there’s an afterlife, there, there’s so many things.” And, and so I said, “Well, have you ever looked into the resurrection? Have you ever, uh, looked at the evidence for the resurrection?” He said, “No, no. I, I just don’t believe it’s true. I, I, I don’t believe that, that Jesus is more God any more than you and I are.” And so I go, “Well, wait a minute.”

Jim: Hmm.

Lee: He, he’s a, he’s a bright, he was a bright guy, and, and he understood even as an atheist or as a skeptic, he under- he understood the relevance and the implications if the resurrection is true. And yet he never took the time to investigate. And that is so true of so many of us.

John: Mm.

Lee: The greatest lawyer who ever lived, Sir Lionel Luckhoo in the Guinness Book of World Records, have w- won more murder trials in a row as a defense attorney than anybody in history, knighted twice by Queen Elizabeth, appointed to the supreme court of his land, and he was a skeptic about the resurrection until somebody went to him and said, “Sir Lionel, you’re the greatest lawyer who’s ever lived. Have you ever investigated the evidence?” And he said, “No, I haven’t, but I will.” And he spent years doing it. And I’ll recite to you one sentence he wrote that summarized his conclusion. He says, “I say unequivocally that the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof, which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”

Jim: Ah.

Lee: This from the most successful lawyer who’s ever lived.

John: Mm. Some great stories and powerful insights from Lee Strobel today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And I hope you’ve been, uh, moved by what he said and assured in your heart, uh, about the truth of Jesus Christ. And there’s more to come next time.

Jim: Lee’s done a great job presenting the evidence for the existence of God. I mean, I’ve given out so many of The Case for Christ books.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And you know, he brought his journalism background into his pursuit of disproving God. And you’re certainly familiar with that, I’m sure. But I love the way he’s shown us that science and faith actually, uh, match up.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: They come together in many ways. And you know, this is one of the reasons that we try to present this great material. Evangelism is one of the things we try to do here at Focus. Last year with our survey work, about 190,000 people came to Christ.

John: That’s huge.

Jim: That-

John: 190,000 people.

Jim: 190,000. We don’t think of Focus in that way, like doing a big rally, but the family is a great tool to talk to people about the Lord and the need for the Lord. So it’s been a very successful endeavor. That’s why we do programs like this. And if Focus has helped you in that way or in marriage or parenting or maybe in a pro-life sense, man, I hope you can give back to the ministry. We need to hear from you right now. We’re running behind at the year-end budget, and we do need people to step up and say, “We’re with you.” And it’s been a pretty difficult year with the election and just the economy not being in a healthy place. You can be part of that giving community, and we want to give families hope. And you can be a part of that through Focus on the Family. When you give any amount today, as our way of saying thank you, we’ll send you a copy of Lee’s outstanding book, Is God Real?: Exploring the Ultimate Question of Life. Now, who doesn’t want that book?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: (laughs) I mean, right? And it will, uh, certainly change your walk and your commitment, I believe. And it’ll help strengthen your faith in Christ.

John: And right now, your year-end gift will be doubled thr- through a special match opportunity. Twice the families will receive the help they need thanks to your generosity. Donate today and get your copy of the book, Is God Real?, when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459, or you can go online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And while you’re at our site, sign up for our Best of 2024 audio collection. It’s free and you’ll have access to our entire library of the best episodes from this past year, addressing faith, parenting and marriage. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we hear more from Lee Strobel and help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Day Two

Lee Strobel: If God is not real, we don’t have free will, we have no afterlife, no hope for anything beyond this world. Uh, there’s all these implications that flow out of that. And I think people, when a culture begins to slide in that direction, as our culture has, then people begin to say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Um, is there any hope? Is there anything I can grasp onto that can, uh, give me something beyond this world?”

John Fuller: Well, that’s Lee Strobel and he’s back with us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. This is one of our Best of 2024 episodes, and thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, uh, again, I’m so excited to have Lee back, day two. This is my, you know, hot house.

John: You have, uh, stepped up.

Jim: (laughs)

John: You’re very engaged on this topic.

Jim: I just love the topic.

John: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, to me, it’s one of those questions, why, as a human being, would you not try to answer “is God real”, which is the title of Lee’s book. It’s a great title.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: ‘Cause it’s the number one question when you look at searches, et cetera. Is God real? I would tell you, if you’ve never answered that question, get on a horse and start trying to find the answer. What I mean by get on the horse is get the evidence, do the research. There’s so many great resources now that can guide you in that way. It’s not a brainwashing. This is factual data. Did Jesus rise from the dead, yes or no? That kind of is the game changer. If he claimed to be the Messiah, and died, and was resurrected, wouldn’t you wanna embrace that?

John: Hm.

Jim: And, uh, that’s what we’re talking about, Is God Real? Wonderful book. And, uh, all I could say is we’re gonna do the best job we can to present the material, then it’s up to you. And this is one place you should not hesitate to investigate and determine for yourself, “Yes, I believe in Jesus,” or, “No, I don’t.”

John: Hm. And Lee Strobel is back with us. As I said, he has been here a number of times on the broadcast. He currently serves as founding director of the Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics, uh, at Colorado Christian University, just up the road. And of course, uh, he is a bestselling author. Uh, the book that, uh, really forms the foundation for our conversation today, um, and we can’t cover it all. So get a copy of the book, as Jim said.

Jim: (laughs) For sure.

John: Uh, the book is Is God Real?: Exploring the Ultimate Question of Life. And, uh, we’d invite you to call us for a copy 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Lee, it’s great to have you back.

Lee: Oh, wonderful to be back.

Jim: (laughs) Day two.

Lee: Yeah, there you go.

Jim: I could probably do a month’s-

Lee: (laughs)

Jim: … worth of programming with you. But, uh-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s just so much fun. And it’s like, you know, the spirit within us when we talk about is God real?

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, I think there’s something in me that gets excited.

Lee: Me too. (laughs)

Jim: I mean, yeah. What a wonderful way to spend your life. (laughs)

Lee: Well, you know what, and I find out in our culture today, which is increasingly skeptical, and even hostile toward the faith, more and more people are saying, “Is there evidence? Is there any reason to believe? Is it rational? Is it logical? Does it make sense?” And I wanna say, “Yes, a thousand times, yes.”

Jim: It’s great to start there. We touched on it last time.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: And then if you miss the program last time, get the download.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Go to the website at Focus, get the app for your smartphone. You can listen to every episode that way.

John: Mm-hmm. Right.

Jim: And, uh, boy, get to it, because that was some great content yesterday. But we touched on it and didn’t dig any deeper. But there does seem to be a slight decline in those who believe in God.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: Uh, give us those numbers-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … and your perceptions to what’s going on.

Lee: Yeah. I met my wife in 1966. Uh, back then in 1967, according to the Gallup Poll, 98% of Americans believe in God.

Jim: Think of that.

Lee: 98%. Today, the number is 81%, the lowest in history. And if you ask people, “Are you sure that God exists?” Goes down to the 60s, about, about 65-

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: … 64%.

Jim: Uh, so the question is, why is that happen? And, and what are your observations about it?

Lee: I think there’s a lot of reasons, but I think one that’s particularly relevant to Focus on the Family is I, I, I see this correlation between two trends in America. One is the increase in spiritual skepticism, people who question whether God exists. And the other trend is the increase in fatherless families.

Jim: Hm.

Lee: I think there’s a connection. Paul Vitz, who was a PhD, uh, at, uh, New York University, wrote a book called Faith of the Fatherless years ago. And what he did is he researched the lives of famous atheists through history, Camus, Sartre, Nietzsche, Freud, Voltaire, uh, Wells, Feuerbach, O’Hear, every single one of them either had a father who died when they were young, divorced their mother when they were young, or with whom they had a very difficult relationship. And the implication is, if your earthly father has abandoned you, disappointed you, hurt you, abused you in some way, then you don’t really wanna know about a Heavenly Father because you think He’s just gonna be a magnified version of your earthly father. He’s only gonna hurt you more. And so you’ll find, uh, you, s- you, you don’t realize this is going on, but y- it will cause you to kind of manufacture reasons not to believe. I was an atheist for much of my life, and I had had a terrible relationship with my father.

Jim: So you fit the mold.

Lee: I fit the mold.

John: Hm.

Lee: I remember my dad looking at me on the eve of my high school graduation. We had a big blowout argument. And he said, “I don’t have enough love for you to fill my little finger.”

Jim: Wow.

Lee: And so we had a difficult relationship. Did that influence me to walk down the road to atheism? I think so. Was I aware of it? No. And so I think, now, by the way, I’ll mention this. If, if somebody’s listening and saying, “Oh my goodness.”

Jim: “Never thought about it.”

Lee: “Never. Maybe that’s true for me. Maybe it’s true for my best friend or whatever.” Here’s the antidote. C.S. Lewis said this. He said, “Imagine,” say to your friend or whoever’s going through this, say to your friend, “Can you imagine for just a moment what the perfect father would be like? Just imagine. What would he be like?” “Oh, well, he’d be gracious. He’d be kind. He’d be your biggest cheerleader. He’d be your biggest encourager. He’d, he’d pick you up in his lap, and give you a hug.” And say, “Well, that is the picture of your Heavenly Father.”

John: Right.

Lee: “Your Heavenly Father is not just a magnified version of your earthly father. He is, uh, uh, fundamentally different. He is the perfect father. He is the father who you long to have for eternity.”

Jim: Uh, Lee, last time, and this should en- e- entice people to go listen, we ended with a story of you interviewing Hugh Hefner from-

Lee: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … Playboy and talking to him about the-

Lee: Yeah. (laughs)

Jim: … resurrection of Christ. So God bless you for even-

Lee: (laughs)

Jim: … doing that.

Lee: (laughs)

Jim: I mean, that’s amazing courage. And, you know, an iconic figure-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … in atheism, agnosticism, whatever you want to call it-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … Hugh Hefner. You also had some discussion, I believe, with, uh, Evel Knievel, or you-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: You know, you are interviewing some very interesting people.

Lee: I’ve had some fast, and, and-

Jim: (laughs)

Lee: … Charles Templeton, the famous-

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: … skeptic from Canada, the number one skeptic.

Jim: So let’s, let’s kick off day two-

Lee: Yeah. (laughs)

Jim: … with your Evel Knievel discussion.

Lee: Oh, sure.

Jim: What’d you say to him?

Lee: Well, Evel Knievel was on a beat, you know, Evel Knievel lived, he was a womanizer, he was a drunk, he was a gambler. He was a (laughs) … He was a bad dude.

Jim: He didn’t seem to respect life very much.

Lee: (laughs) No.

Jim: I mean, like his own.

Lee: He had more broken bones than anybody in the world, according to Guinness Book–

Jim: He had broken every, everything.

Lee: … of World Records, broke everything. And here he is on the beach in his later years, and God spoke to him.

Jim: Huh.

Lee: A- And, and he said, “I felt it on the inside. And God said, ‘Robert, I’ve saved you more times than you’ll ever know.’”

Jim: (laughs)

Lee: “Now you need to come to me through my Son Jesus.”

Jim: Wow.

Lee: And it freaked him out.

Jim: Hm.

Lee: So he didn’t know. He, he said, “I don’t even know who Jesus is.” So he called the only Christian he knew, Frank Gifford, the sportscaster.

Jim: Yeah. Yeah.

Lee: Kathie Lee Gifford’s husband.

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Lee: And said, “Frank, I had this experience and God spoke to me, and … But who is Jesus?” And Frank said, “Um, get that book The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. That will- ”

Jim: Oh, you gotta love that.

Lee: “That will kind of explain it.”

Jim: Oh my. (laughs) That’s great.

Lee: So anyway, he reads my book. He becomes a radical born-again believer.

Jim: How old is he at this point?

Lee: Well, he’s in his, he’s in his, um, uh, late 60s, early 70s.

Jim: Huh.

Lee: But his health was failing. And he, um, probably the most radically transformed person I’d ever encountered, 180 degree change. So much so that, uh, when he was baptized, he gave his story, he gave his testimony, and then he looked at people out there in the congregation, said, “Do you know Jesus? Have you met Him?”

Jim: Wow.

Lee: “Have you encountered Him? Have you experienced Him?” And, and the pastor literally ripped up his sermon and said, “You’ve heard the Gospel, if you wanna right now, get a … ” And this is a church that never to my knowledge, had an altar call.

Jim: Ah.

Lee: He said, “If you want to get up right now, and come forward, and receive Jesus, and be baptized, come forward.” 700 people-

John: Huh.

Lee: … came forward in two services to receive Christ and be baptized on the spot.

Jim: Uh, let’s speak to couple of other illustrations or examples-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … you have in that regard.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: We hear a lot from the Middle East about Muslims having dreams.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: That we’ve had a couple of guests on, uh, that have talked about those experiences.

Lee: Yes. Yes.

Jim: Their ministries are in that part of the world. We don’t wanna-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … talk more about that because of the dangers involved.

Lee: Right.

Jim: But, uh, they are reporting that.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: That there seems to be this like incredible harvest-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … spiritual harvest taking place-

Lee: That’s right.

Jim: … with Muslims.

Lee: That’s right.

Jim: What’s happening?

Lee: This is in closed country, where it’s illegal to share the Gospel.

Jim: Right.

Lee: And what we’re seeing is a third to a quarter of Muslims who come to faith in Christ are because they have a Jesus dream. Now, what’s interesting about these dreams is that they don’t go to sleep as a Muslim, meet Jesus in their dream, become a Christian, generally. What happens is, and this shows that the dreams are not just subjective, but there’s something objective really going on, is that it will, uh, the dream will point them towards something else that will explain the Gospel and, and lead them to faith. So I’ll give you an example. There’s a woman named Noor in Cairo, mother of several children, Muslim woman. Uh, she has a Jesus dream. Jesus appears to her. She feels the love, the grace. She’s never experienced this before. And she’s talking to Jesus. They’re walking along a lake. And she said, “Jesus, tell me more. Tell me more.” And he says to her, “My friend will tell you.” And she said, “Who’s your friend?” And then she realized there was another man walking with them. And, and Jesus said, “My friend will tell you.” Well, she wakes up from the dream. Next day she goes to the crowded marketplace in Cairo. And she sees the man from her dream, the exact man who had been walking next to Jesus. She goes up to him, says, “You, you.” And the guy, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.”

Jim: (laughs) Yeah.

Lee: “What’s what?”

Jim: Right.

John: (laughs)

Lee: “Yeah. What’s going on?” And she said, “You were in my dream. Same glasses, same face, same clothes. You were in my dream.” And the guy says, “Did you have a dream about Jesus?” And she said, “Yes.” Well, he was a missionary. And the only reason he had come to that crowded marketplace that day is because he felt God leading him to go to that crowded marketplace on that Friday. He, and ki- and, and then, so he opens the Bible and he shares the Gospel with her.

Jim: Ah.

Lee: So this is what generally happens. So this tells me this is more than just something going on in somebody’s head. This is something supernatural going on, and this is the pattern that we see.

Jim: You know what I love about that? Y- Last time we talked about God’s intricacy and detail orientation about setting the universe in exactly-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … the right way, that any one thing that would’ve been just off would not have allowed things to occur-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … like we experience them today. That’s amazing. That sounds like a job for God.

Lee: (laughs) Yeah.

John: (laughs)

Jim: Right?

Lee: Right.

Jim: Setting these things. But then you turn around and talk about that same God-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … who is creating this situation for a woman, and to reveal Himself. I mean, that is God.

Lee: It is.

Jim: It’s not just the working of the universe, but the tilt that He wants to have you come into a relationship with Him.

John: Hm.

Lee: That He would care about-

Jim: It’s all of that.

Lee: … each, each of us.

Jim: Yeah. I mean, it’s-

Lee: We’re all made in His image.

Jim: It’s hard-

Lee: He loves us.

Jim: … to even believe.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: I think it’s uncomfortable-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … a bit to believe that God would know me and care about me like that.

Lee: Yeah.

John: Hm.

Jim: “Don’t look at me, Lord.”

Lee: I talk in the book about the instances where people like Evel Knievel have had these direct experiences of God, where He just literally intervenes in their life. Um, my friend Nabeel Qureshi, who was a Muslim and, uh, very anti-Christian, and he got in all these debates with Christians, trying to convince them that Christianity was false. And, and he had a dream. And in this dream there was a banquet. And yet, as he looked into this banquet, he realized he was excluded from the banquet. He wasn’t invited to the banquet. He didn’t accept the invitation to the banquet.

Jim: Wow.

Lee: And it was a chilling dream to him. And he woke up. And he said to his Christian friend, “Hey, I just had this weird dream. What does it mean?” He said, “Look, in the Gospel of Luke, ’cause you just dreamed a scene from Luke’s Gospel- ”

John: Hm.

Lee: ” … about a banquet that God invites us to, but we have to accept the invitation.” And Nabeel Qureshi ended up not only coming to faith, but then becoming a great apologist and evangelist before-

John: Hm.

Lee: … his untimely death in 2017.

Jim: Yeah, amazing.

Lee: And, uh … Yeah. So, and wrote a great book called, uh, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus.

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Jim: Oh, there you go. It’s a top seller in the Middle East.

Lee: Yeah.

John: Huh.

Lee: I tell ya. He was awesome.

John: Well, we’re talking today with Lee Strobel on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And, uh, this is the personal God of the Bible that we see. And, uh, Lee has, uh, taken, uh, to task a very big, ginormous task, Is God Real?, is the, uh, name of his book, Exploring the Ultimate Question of Life. Uh, we’re touching on, uh, portions of the book, uh, last time and today, but, uh, get a copy of this. Go through this. Be, uh, encouraged in your faith or, uh, maybe answered in your doubt through this book. We have details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or give us a call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY.

Jim: Lee, I’m gonna ask a couple of questions about wickedness, evil.

Lee: Hm. Yeah.

Jim: If the question is, “is God real,” the second question is, “If there’s a loving kind, God, why does evil occur?”

Lee: Yes.

Jim: “Why do babies die?”

Lee: Yes.

Jim: That kind of line-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … of reasoning and fair question.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: It’s not an off the table question, especially if you’ve sat in front of people that great losses occurred in their life-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … like the loss of a child.

Lee: It is the number one question. And it, it’s interesting that every world view has to respond to this question-

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: … not just Christianity. But I think we’ve got the best answer.

Jim: And I’m, y- Again, I’m gonna l- ask a couple of questions-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … that get us there. But first is your experience as a journalist training-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … in university. You g- got an assignment to go look at the underbelly of Chicago.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: That kinda reinforced your atheism, if I remember correctly.

Lee: That’s right.

Jim: Describe that, uh, assignment.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: Why did it i- affirm your atheism?

Lee: Yeah, I mean, when I saw the, the kind of poverty, I mean, I grew up in the suburbs. My dad was pretty wealthy. Um, we lacked for nothing. And-

Jim: Except love.

Lee: Except love, yeah, in many ways. And, uh, and yet, um, uh, a- as a journalist at Chicago Tribune, I remember one of my first assignments was to do a 30-part series on the poor of Chicago, to profile a poor family or a poor person every day for 30 days.

Jim: Wow.

Lee: And so I went out into the poorest sections of, of Chicago and found these people who lived in desperate situations. And it did dig my, uh, hole of atheism even deeper.

Jim: Why?

Lee: Because I thought, “How could there be a loving God if, if I’m in comfort in the suburbs, and yet just 30 miles away, people are living in poverty like this?” It just reinforced my idea there is no God. Um, and this is the number one objection that’s raised. I did a study, um, a few years ago. I hired Barna’s organization to do a scientific poll. And I asked Americans, “If you could ask God any one question and you knew He’d give you an answer right now, what would you ask Him?” And by a factor of 80% or so, the question is some permutation of, “Why does God allow suffering?” And, um, you know, my wife has a neuromuscular condition that has her in pain every single day. So she’s been in pain every day for 20 years. She’ll be in pain every day for the rest of her life. She has an incurable condition unless God does a miracle-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Lee: … which He has not done.

Jim: Wow.

Lee: And so this is a personal issue. And, and I bet for people listening, too, who say, “Yeah, it’s a personal issue.” And, uh, fortunately we have a personal God-

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: … who provides good answers.

Jim: In that context, you interviewed Peter Kreeft-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … who’s a PhD.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: I don’t know if it’s philosophy, or-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … in philosophy. You quote him in the book and I just wanna read the last line of that-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … quote, because it’s so powerful and it maybe for the first time, kind of put it in context for me.

Lee: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Because it’s okay to s- to be upset about suffering.

Lee: That’s right.

Jim: I mean, God is big enough to take that.

Lee: Right.

Jim: I think suffering, as scripture talks about, certainly leads to good things-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … if we allow it to do its good work.

Lee: Right.

Jim: And, uh, yet at the same time, it shouldn’t be the obstacle to why we believe in God.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: But the quote was this, “The source of evil is not God’s power,” I would even add His existence.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: ” … but rather mankind’s freedom.”

Lee: Right.

Jim: “That we create the evil- ”

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: ” … upon other people.”

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: Um, that’s a powerful quote. And that-

Lee: It is.

Jim: … probably covers a good percentage of the evil that occurs in this world.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: You still have death of an infant.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: But speak to those-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … things.

Lee: Well, here’s, here’s what he means. Um, God has existed from eternity past as God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit in a perfect love relationship. And so the greatest value in the universe is love. And when God decided to create humankind, He wanted us to be able to love, love Him, and love each other. But the only way you can enable someone to love is if you give them free choice, freedom of the will. Why? Well, when my daughter was little, they used to have a doll called Chatty Cathy.

Jim: Yeah. I remember.

Lee: Yeah. Remember Chatty Cathy?

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: And it had a string on the back.

Jim: I thought it was called Irritating Cathy, but.

Lee: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs)

Lee: If you pull the string in the back and let go, it would talk to you. And so my, my daughter would pull the string and let go. And the doll would say, “I love you.”

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Lee: That’s how good the technology was.

Jim: Yeah.

Lee: But the point is, did that doll love my daughter? No, of course not. It was a mechanical device. It w- It was programmed to say that. It had to say that. Real love always involves a choice. And so what has humankind done with its free will? We’ve turned our back on God. We hurt each other. We’re, we’re selfish. I mean, I can take my hand, and I can feed a hungry person, or I can take that same hand using my freedom of will and pick up a gun, and kill an innocent person. We are out- Uh, our freedom of will has opened the door. Now, God created the potential for that to happen ’cause it’s the only way we could love. But we activated that potential, uh, by inviting evil into the world. And the Bible says that it’s even corroded creation itself. The creation is groaning-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Lee: … for redemption that will someday occur and for things to be made right. So I think this, this goes a long way toward us understanding how, um, uh, our choices can open the door to-

Jim: Right.

Lee: … evil entering into our lives.

Jim: The other contrast would be in my mind, uh, you know, the fall of Adam and Eve-

Lee: Yes.

Jim: … invited sin into the world-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … the chaos that’s in the world.

Lee: They used their freedom of the will.

Jim: You also talked, uh, you mentioned this a moment ago, Charles Templeton.

Lee: Yes.

Jim: ‘Cause I thought the example that he had comes to the core, not so much of man’s evil against man, but circumstances that occur. And I think Charles Templeton, who was a pastor who claimed he had lost his faith when he saw a Life Magazine photo of an African woman holding a dead child because of drought.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, describe that, because that maybe cuts closer to the core of why would that happen? Why wouldn’t God just make it rain?

Lee: Yeah, exactly. Um, Charles Templeton was the number one skeptic in Canada. Uh, he wrote a book once called Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith. So that’s kind of the opposite of my book.

Jim: Right.

Lee: Um, and now I will, here’s a spoiler alert, but in my book, I disclose what, something that most people don’t know, which is that on his deathbed, it appears that he did come back to faith in Jesus Christ.

Jim: Wow.

Lee: Yeah.

John: Okay.

Lee: Um, so thank God for that. But, uh, he raises the question of, “What about this suffering? What do we do with this?” And, and, uh, a lot of people see this. I see the suffering in my wife and say, “Uh, how can God tolerate this?” And yet the Bible says that God can cause, if we follow Him, if we’re committed to His ways, in this world or the next, He can take our suffering and He can draw good from it.” Now, sometimes that gets thrown out by Christians. It’s Romans 8:28. You know, “God can cause us all things to work together for good, for those who love Him and those are called according to His purpose.” And sometimes we’re a little, we’re a little flippant with it. We’re a little blithe with it. We, we, you know, someone is going through a tough time. “Oh, Romans 8:28, God’s gonna draw good from it.”

Jim: Right. I … we … I don’t feel like we are ill willed in doing that.

Lee: No.

Jim: But the way we say it can come across as cold, it’s something-

Lee: It can.

Jim: … to think about.

Lee: It can. And, and yet one thing that Peter Kreeft said to me that, uh, that changed my life, he said to me, I’ll never (laughs) forget when I told my wife this, that she cried. He said, “God has taken the worst possible thing that could ever happen in the universe, which is the death of the Son of God on the cross.”

John: Hm.

Lee: “And from that, He has drawn the best thing that could ever happen in the universe, which is the opening of Heaven to all who follow Him. And if God can take the worst thing in the universe and turn it into the best thing in the universe, He can take even our sufferings, even my wife’s pain that she goes through, He can take that, He can redeem it, He can draw good from it.” And you know what? I see how He draws good from it. I see how it has changed her life in a way where she is so empathetic and caring toward other people who are hurting in a way that she probably wouldn’t be if she personally had not gone through this, uh, experience that she’s gone through.

Jim: And I think when you look at it, all of the evidence, which we talked about last time, this time-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … the book, far more discussion about the evidence there-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … the resurrection, et cetera. It’s all critical, especially for thinking people. You need to feel it-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … understand it, touch it, rationalize it, believe it.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: But in the end, it’s kinda like, you know, Revelation 12:11, which is a scripture I’ve often thought about, where it says, “They have conquered him,” meaning Satan.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: “By the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they love not their lives, even unto death.”

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: And that’s what you’re kind of describing-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … uh, suffering and pain.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: But the idea that no one can steal from you, your testimony.

Lee: Right.

Jim: I mean, they can tell you, “Right is wrong and wrong is right.”

Lee: Right. (laughs)

Jim: But they can’t replace in your heart what God has done to you, the way that you’ve heard His still voice in your heart.

Lee: That’s right. They can’t challenge the-

Jim: So-

Lee: … fact that God has changed your life.

Jim: Right.

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: Or the fact of the re- the death and resurrection-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … the blood of the lamb. That’s what-

Lee: Right.

Jim: … that’s referring to-

Lee: Yeah.

Jim: … the evidence of the resurrection.

Lee: Right.

Jim: That combination is unassailable.

Lee: Yeah, it is. And I’ve found, frankly over the years, uh, uh, that I’ve changed my approach in talking to people who raise questions about pain and suffering. What I used to do is, “Oh, if you could ask God any one question, you knew He’d give you an answer, what would you ask?” “Well, I’d ask, why does He allow suffering?” “Oh, well, let me give you a five point sermon on why God allows suffering.” And I’d give a five point sermon. And ’cause I think we have good reasons to understand why God would allow that. I don’t do that anymore.

Jim: Huh.

Lee: What I do now is I ask a followup question, “Why did you ask that one?” Now they get personal. Now they say, “Because my wife was just diagnosed with cervical cancer and I wanna know where’s God in the middle of that?” Or, “We lost a baby in childbirth five years ago. Where was God when that happened?” And I’ve come to realize what that person probably needs from me right now as a follower of Jesus is probably not a five-point sermon. What he needs from me is to put my arm around his shoulder, and to sit next to him, and to cry with him, and to be Jesus with him in that moment. And I, I, I think maybe my own brush with death has given me sensitivity to this. And so I found that, that at some point, yes, let’s deal with the intellectual question, but the love of God, the grace of God, if I can be a conduit from that into a hurting person’s life, God uses that in remarkable ways.

John: Hm. It’s always great to hear from Lee Strobel and, uh, boy, he had such great things to share today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Such wisdom and insight that really helps all of us, I think, grow in our faith.

Jim: You know, right at the end, there, that concept of the love of Christ, I’ve always felt like the one weapon that the enemy of our soul cannot compete with is God’s love.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, everything else he can manipulate, our intellect, you know, he can twist people into thinking taking their own baby’s life is a-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … good thing. I mean, it’s unbelievable what the enemy can do to twist our heart. But the love of God, no, nothing on this earth can compete with that.

John: Yeah.

Jim: And Lee so brilliantly expresses that, and he gathered all those experts to validate the existence of God. And that gives us such, uh, a solid undergirding for our beliefs. And here at Focus on the Family, we want to give you the tools you need to build a solid relationship yourself with the Lord, and live in His peace and love. And if we’ve helped you to do that, I’d like to ask you to consider giving back to help others find that love and peace as well, especially here at the end of 2024. We have been running a little behind and I wanna kinda put the pedal to the metal, as they say. We need to hear from folks. And if you’ve supported us in the past, I’d like to encourage you to pray about supporting us again. And if you haven’t supported us, step up and be part of the financial team that-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … helps us get this done. When you give a gift of any amount today, uh, to the ministry, we’ll send you a copy of Is God Real?: Exploring the Ultimate Question of Life as our way of saying thank you for helping others.

John: Yeah. Partner with us today to give families hope. And on behalf of all those that you’re gonna help through Focus on the Family, thank you. Now, today, when you donate, your gift is gonna be doubled, thanks to a limited time matching opportunity. So please consider how you can donate today our number’s 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. Or you can donate and get a copy of the book, Is God Real?, at our website, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And when you’re online with us, be sure to look for our Best of 2024 audio collection. It’s free, and it’s got all the best content from this past year addressing faith, and marriage, and parenting, and more. Now, tomorrow we’ll have another of our Best of 2024 programs featuring comedian Jeremy Nunes, who has some great insights about family humor, uh, like what happens when you’re six feet, six inches tall.

Jeremy Nunes: He wanted to be done with this food. And I said, “Nope, you did not eat all your vegetables, you’re not done.” And my wife goes, “Yeah, don’t you wanna be big and tall like Daddy?” And he goes, “Well, I wanna be tall, but Dad is freak tall.”

Audience: (laughs)

Jeremy: “I ate just the right amount.”