Day One:
Husband: What do you mean we don’t talk anymore?
Wife: When was the last time we sat down and just had a conversation?
Husband: For crying out loud. What do you think we’re doing now? I could be watching the game. I could be playing the computer.
Wife: Watch your silly game, okay?
Husband: Fine.
Wife: Alone.
Husband: I usually do.
John Fuller: Hmm. Well, maybe you and your spouse know conflict like that all too well. Uh, like, you’ve memorized the pattern and those habits and the dance steps. And every time you have a disagreement or a tough issue to navigate, there you are again. If you can relate, we have some hope and practical help for you today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.
Jim Daly: You know, how many couples have these disagreements and then hours later, days later, you’re going, “What, what was our problem? What were we talking about? (laughs) What we were fighting about?”
John: Can’t even remember.
Jim: You can remember the intensity of it, but oftentimes you don’t even remember what the, what the noun of the trouble was. You know, what was the subject? And, uh, that’s because we’re reacting out of a dysfunction somewhere that we learned. I mean, it’s a trigger, right?
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And we’re pushing each other’s buttons. It’s one of the things I am way too good at with Jean, at pushing that button. And I feel bad about it, but it’s almost like a reflex. You know, when she says something to me, I just go bing, and then boom, she reacts to that and then off to the races we go.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Now you would think after being married 39 years, we’d have some of this figured out.
John: (laughs) Yes.
Jim: And we do and we’re getting better, but it still comes up. You know, it just pops its ugly head, and then we gotta say, “I’m sorry, will you forgive me?” Which is all good, but why not not go there in the first place, right?
John: (laughs)
Jim: And today we’re gonna give you some tools to be able to recognize those patterns in your life, and then how to maybe, uh, respond with the adult brain that God has given us.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: (laughs)
John: Yeah. Ron and Nan Deal are here. Ron is back here. Uh, he’s, uh, joined us a number of times for a variety of conversations. Uh, he’s a marriage and family therapist, probably best known for his work with step-families. Uh, uh, his wife, Nan, is a former teacher and travels, and, uh, they speak together at marriage conferences. And together they’ve written a terrific resource called The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself. And, uh, you can learn more about our guests and get a copy of this resource. The details are at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Ron, welcome back. Nan, welcome for the first time. It’s great to have you.
Nan Deal: Thank you.
Ron Deal: Thank you.
Nan: It’s good to be here.
Jim: It’s always a little more difficult when the spouse shows up for this kind of interview, right? (laughing)
Ron: It’s gonna be real.
Jim: ‘Cause we sound so brilliant as husbands or as just a wife. (laughing)
Ron: Yes.
Jim: But when we’re together-
Nan: Right.
Jim: … it’s accountability time.
Ron: That’s right.
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: I think Jean might say, “Yeah, you could write the book, The Mindless Marriage.” (laughing) So no, Jean would never say that, but I, I might think that she’s thinking that.
Nan: (laughs)
Jim: But it’s so true. Why? Let’s start right there. Why us, I would say, mature Christians, walking with the Lord a long time-
Ron: Yeah.
Jim: … how do we still fall prey to these kind of traps, that we should be, like Paul says, “Renewing our mind day after day?”
Ron: Right.
Jim: I’ve probably been a Christian for 8,000 days of my life, maybe more.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: And sometimes I still don’t know the right way to respond.
Ron: You guys-
Jim: (laughs)
Ron: … we have learned so much about how the brain and body soul works in the last 20 years. Neuroscience has taught us a tremendous amount about the brain and how it functions. You mentioned 39 years, Nan and I have been married 39 years.
Nan: 39.
Ron: We tell our audiences, “We’re just beginning to figure this thing out.” (laughing) Like, wh-
Nan: Thank goodness.
Ron: … like, why has it taken so long? But I think it’s the same reason why most people listening or watching right now go to church on Sunday, hear truth, and walk out going, “That was for me,” and nothing changes.
Jim: Right.
Ron: Because there are certain things that are set neurologically within the brain. It is our mind that needs to tell our brain how to behave.
Jim: Mm.
Ron: Now think about that for a minute. Paul’s talking about renewing your mind. It’s your mind that is above your brain, but there’s a physicality to your brain that develops neurological pathways that get set. You said a minute ago Jean might say something and you reflex. That is exactly the right word.
Jim: Oh, yeah.
Ron: Your brain has a reflex. And in a nanosecond, you go from zero to 100, because literally what’s happened is something in the prefrontal cortex has been triggered by a pain that you’ve experienced and your midbrain takes over. It’s sort of like your thinking brain goes offline, your midbrain takes over, and all it knows to do is fight or flight.
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: And as long as your mind lets your brain go there, you will do the same thing you did when you were six or 15 or 25, or you’re, you’re… The immaturity-
Jim: Or 50 or 60? (laughing)
Ron: … 50 or 60.
Nan: Yes.
Jim: Really?
John: Yeah.
Nan: Well-
Ron: But the beautiful thing is you don’t have to end there.
Jim: (laughs) Right.
Nan: … and scripture is clear, the flesh wants what the flesh wants.
Jim: Oh.
Nan: But we’re asked and called to walk in the Spirit-
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Nan: … which takes a lot of self-control.
Jim: Yeah, it does. Now you guys have written this book together. And probably the best way to demonstrate some of these things is by your examples. (laughing)
Nan: Yes.
Ron: We have lots of them. (laughs)
Jim: So let’s go to that moment when the bottom was dropping out of your marriage and you felt something. Describe what was going on. What was the phrase or what was said that caught your guys’ attention?
Ron: You wanna tell it? (laughs)
Nan: I think I showed up with suitcases, and I said-
Jim: Wow.
Nan: … “it’s either you or me.”
Ron: Yeah.
Nan: “I am done.” It was just, I was done with that cycle and that dance.
Jim: Did you even understand it at that time, what was happening?
Nan: I didn’t understand what was happening, but I was… Our boys were preteen at the time. Um, I was-
Ron: This is 2007, by the way. Just…
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: … I was tired of chasing after my husband who was chasing after so much in ministry and helping so many other people. And here we are, and I have these three young, about to be three young men, and it was just the same thing. And it just kept cycling. And I kept responding and he kept responding. And it just was, what, were we, 20 something years in?
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Nan: And it was, like, “It’s either you or me, or get us some help,” basically. Because he’s a th-
Jim: Wow. I mean, that’s pretty dramatic.
Nan: … yeah, he’s a therapist.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: I’m like, “Obviously you can’t fix this, so get us some help (laughs) to help fix this.”
Jim: Have you, did you ever say to Ron, “Ron, you’re looking at this stuff all day. Why can’t you apply it in our relationship?”
Nan: Yes.
Jim: It’s not that I haven’t heard that, but… (laughs)
Nan: Yeah. I mean-
Ron: Yeah, yeah right. Right, right.
Jim: I mean, there is, it is an odd thing-
John: Wow
Nan: … right.
Jim: … because we sit here and we do the things we do, we write the books, we write.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But even for us, being steeped in the information-
Nan: Sure.
Jim: … we still struggle with the things that you defined at the opening.
Ron: Absolutely. And what I wanna say is, it’s not like, and I think most married couples listening can relate to this, it’s not like it’s black or white; either your relationship is all great or all bad. As a matter of fact, most of us, and to that point in our marriage, I would say we were among those who had lots of good-
Nan: Yes.
Ron: … lots of positive.
Nan: Yes.
Ron: There had been lots of growth and change and-
Nan: Yes.
Ron: … um, I had been working on some of Me and Family of Origin stuff. But at at the end of the day, there were still those dysregulated, reactive moments that were really, really bad. It’s not like it’s awful all the time. It’s just when it was bad, it was bad.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Ron: Or when I was neglectful, I was neglectful. And why was I neglectful is really important to the story, because I had no idea. I just knew I was working hard and I felt called by God and all that kind of stuff that helps you justify the intensity of your work. And I certainly didn’t understand how abandoned and neglected she felt in that moment.
Nan: True.
Ron: Those were just the surface level experiences of what was going on with us. And it’s this journey that we recount in this book-
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: … and discovering restoration therapy and how that opened up all that for us. And then we had to chase the pain really.
Nan: And-
Jim: And we’re gonna, we’re gonna unpack that today and tomorrow, which is great. And that’ll fill in some of the definitions of, uh-
Ron: Yes.
Jim: … the, the dysfunctional things and those kinds of things. But, but in this moment, because it’s so poignant and-
Nan: … yes.
Jim: … most of us as couples have been to a spot like this.
Ron: Yeah.
Jim: It may not have been bags packed, but it was, like, “I’m at the end of my rope.”
Nan: Yes.
Jim: “We got, we, we need change.”
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Ron: “Don’t know how to do this.”
Jim: How did you respond with Nan’s declaration-
Ron: Yeah.
Jim: … of, “I need more?”
Nan: I truly believe it was H- now looking back, Holy Spirit moment of… Because he didn’t bow up like he usually does-
Jim: Uh-huh.
Nan: … and get defensive. He was like, “I’ll do whatever it takes.”
Jim: It was more serious for some reason.
Nan: Yeah, he got down on his knees-
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Wow.
Nan: … and said, “I- I’ll do whatever it takes.” I don’t know what I said that night (laughing) or how I said it, but you knew I meant business that night.
Jim: Wow.
Nan: And so the next day-
Ron: Yeah, I was deeply convicted in that moment.
Nan: … we were in Terry’s office.
Ron: And she started saying, “Get us some help.” And I said, “Okay, who do I trust?” Um, and there were a couple of people, and they, I called and they were occupied, uh, unavailable.
Nan: You did come at me with, “Terry has a two-year waiting list. I don’t think he’ll see us.” And I said, “Call him right now.” And it was, like, 9:00 PM.
Jim: Oh, wow.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Nan: And we were in his office the next day.
Jim: Wow.
Ron: He lived in our community. And I had a deep respect for Dr. Hargrave.
Nan: He’s a gift.
Ron: So we ended up in his office the next morning.
Nan: (laughs)
Ron: And, and that too had to be God’s intervention.
Jim: So this is Dr. Terry Hargrave, who-
Ron: That’s correct.
Jim: … uh, taught you really this modality of-
Ron: That’s right.
Jim: … of marriage.
Nan: And here’s how that went down.
Ron: (laughs)
Nan: Dr. Terry Hargrave, and I married to a marriage and family therapist, I stood at the doorway and I said, “No psychobabble stuff right here, the two of you.”
Ron: (laughs)
Nan: “I want you to land the plane with me. No funny business between the two of you. And I wanna be heard.”
Jim: (laughs) I could see it in your face right now, man.
John: Wow.
Ron: She was serious.
Nan: And Ter- and Terry said-
Jim: “Okay.”
Nan: … and Terry said, “Go ahead.”
Ron: (laughs)
Jim: Wow.
Nan: And I laid it all out there. And then the next thing was so beautiful.
Ron: (laughs)
Nan: It was like-
Jim: It was what you’d been waiting for, when Terry said what to Ron?
Ron: He said-
Nan: … he nailed him.
Ron: … (laughs)
Nan: He nailed him to the wall and I got to watch it.
Ron: This is really important how it came down, but-
Nan: It really is important. And my husband broke down.
Ron: … yeah.
Jim: What did Terry say?
Nan: And it was the beginning of really a humbling moment.
Ron: He was looking at Nan. She had just s- talked for 20 minutes about all her pain.
Nan: Oh, my goodness.
Ron: And he looked at her with a, a simple, little reflective statement, but he was talking to me.
Nan: He was.
Ron: He was looking at her, but he was talking to me. And he said, “Well, Nan, what I think you’re telling me is that the reason Ron threw you under the bus is because God told him to.”
Jim: Wow.
Ron: And I instantly know God would never tell me to do that, that I had been justifying some things out of my own needs. And I don’t know why, but it’s wrong, and I felt a deep, deep conviction. They kept talking, and I was just sitting in my little space going, “Ooh something’s wrong, and I gotta deal with me.” And that was the beginning of a humbling process, a, “What is this thing?” And, you know, it certainly involved Nan as well.
Nan: Oh, he s-
Ron: It wasn’t just me that needed it. We just-
Nan: … he said something very poignant to me as well. He looked me straight in the eye and he said, “If you will allow God to heal all of this brokenness in you, it’ll be the most beautiful thing that will come out of your life.”
Jim: And what did you feel inside when he said that?
Nan: I was like-
Jim: It’s gonna be impossible? Or, “Okay, I’m willing?”
Nan: … I was like, I, I had no idea what he was saying at that moment because I had so much brokenness, and I thought I could take care of it and not allow God… I couldn’t trust God with it. It was too much, from family to Ron. And I just sat there and went, “I don’t know.” And I didn’t know what he was saying to me till years later.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Wow. You know, uh, we have something called Hope Restored. It’s a marriage intensive. We talk about it often. And the one question on the intake side, when these couples are hurting desperately, like where you guys were at-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and they, uh, start the application process-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … they’ll ask ’em one question, “Do you believe God can work a miracle in your marriage?” If they say, “No,” they don’t get in.
Ron: Mm.
Nan: Mm.
Jim: ‘Cause what we have found is that basic ounce of hope-
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: … is what’s required-
Ron: That’s right.
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: … um, for that failure rate.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, if you’re already in a place where not even God can work a miracle-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … you, you don’t have a chance.
Ron: Yeah.
Nan: True.
Jim: But if you can say, and it usually goes like this, and Nan you’ll be able to relate to this, “Yeah, God’s the only one because my husband’s such a jerk.”
Ron: (laughs)
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: But that’s hope.
Ron: Yes.
Nan: Sure.
Jim: That’s saying, “God, I think, can work that miracle.” And that’s the difference. And that’s where you guys were at.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that’s so beautiful. Let me ask you, Ron, uh, y- you know, people listening, we got the whole spectrum, people that respect a PhD in psychology-
Ron: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jim: … and then people that are theologically rooted and saying, “You know, I don’t, I don’t know that psychology delivers that much. It could be psychobabble.”
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: Exactly what you said, Nan. But, uh, Dr. Hargrave introduced you to this restoration therapy, which really is rooted in 2 Corinthians 5, I believe.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So connect that for the skeptic, the listener, the viewer who’s going, “Eh, I don’t know about that.” But the study of science is really the study of God’s creation-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … when it gets down to it. People will manipulate that. But when we match these things, which of course Dr. Dobson did-
Ron: Yes.
Jim: … as a PhD in child development, and so many who have come behind them now, that they’re both Christian and experts in these areas, you can pick up patterns that God has created.
Ron: Absolutely. All truth is God’s truth. Uh, we know medical science truth that we all live by every single day when you go to the doctor and he s- he or she says, “Do this, don’t do that, take this, don’t take that.” Like, we’re trusting a lot in medical science. And is there a God behind all of that that makes all of that make sense? Absolutely. And I think the social sciences are very similar to that. They will always ult- Uh, biblical truth is the ultimate truth. It will always point us in the right direction. And any other truth that’s discoverable, if we could say it that way, will line up ultimately with biblical truth. That’s why I said what I said earlier about we’ve learned more about the mind and the brain and the distinctiveness there and how it works. It’s adding more layers to our understanding of the flesh. As Nan said in Romans 7, Paul said, “Why do I keep on doing the things that I don’t wanna do?”
Jim: I’m so glad he wrote that.
Ron: Me too.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: (laughs) I mean, thank you, Paul.
Ron: Hallelujah. Like, yeah.
Jim: Seriously, that’s one of the best lines of scripture for human beings.
Nan: It truly is.
Ron: It’s the human experience.
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: Like, so here’s a guy who knows better, but can’t quite get to the living better. There’s a gap there. Absolutely there’s a gap. What is that gap and why is that gap exist? Well, we know a little bit more about that gap now, if I could say it that way. When it comes to spiritual walk, discipline and walking with God and having self-control to live and obey the way He’s asked us to obey-
Jim: Boy, it’s so true.
Ron: … my flesh constantly, and part of that is my brain, constantly wants to go back to what it knows.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: And those are old patterns that are really deep-rooted. They’re neurological at this point in my life. Neurological.
Jim: And that’s that restoration therapy. Give us that quick definition.
Ron: Okay. So restoration therapy really integrates a number of things that you guys have talked about many times on this program. Attachment theory, what we know about how we work in terms of relationships, how we connect with other people, the neuroscience-
Jim: You learn this as a child mostly.
Ron: … e- exactly, exactly. And it sets those styles in us that then pour out us as an adult. But the question is, what do we do about it? And what Dr. Hargrave, restoration therapy does, is take all of that know-how and then merge it with New Testament theology around your old self and your new self. If there is one thing that we ought to be teaching and preaching (laughs) in, in church on a regular basis, it’s this reoccurring theme in the New Testament about, it is my job as a follower of Jesus to take off my old self, the part of me that is not like Christ. I’m listening to the Spirit, I’m trying to merge my body, soul, mind, processes along with the Spirit so that I can live out what He has called me to do. There’s the gap between my flesh and the living by the Spirit, right? This is over and over. Galatians 5, this is Philippians 4, this is-
Nan: Ephesians.
Ron: … Galatians 3, this is Ephesians 4, this is, uh, 2 Corinthians, you mentioned. This is over and over, “Take off the old self and put on the new.” It just turns out there’s quite a journey but to do that.
Nan: Yeah.
Ron: And Dr. Hargrave has figured out a, a process, a system that really helps us navigate that space, become less and less like our old flesh and more and more like Christ. And when I do that in the context of my marriage, in the moments when I’m triggered and all my bad self comes out, if I can put on self-control, I can bring a better me to the next moment in my marriage. And it’s transformative for relationships.
John: Mm. Well, our guests today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly are Ron and Nan Deal, and we’re talking about their book, The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself. It’s a really good book and you can learn more at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And Ron, uh, in the book, you use the analogy of being on a trail. And, uh, you, you talk about kind of this pain cycle and likened it to finding a snake on the trail.
Ron: Yes.
Nan: (laughs)
John: Uh, I saw a snake-
Ron: A rattlesnake. (laughs)
John: … I saw a pretty serious snake on a trail one time in Arkansas of all places. (laughing) Uh, what were you thinking of when you wrote that?
Ron: Well, I, I was probably reacting the way you were reacting.
John: (laughs)
Ron: You know, it’s funny, John, when you see a rattlesnake, we were walking through a canyon with all of our kids-
Nan: Yes, with the boys.
Ron: … uh, on this occasion. You don’t have to form a committee and say-
Jim: (laughs)
Ron: … “we have a rattlesnake. What should we do about…” No, your midbrain kicks in. It’s God’s gift to us, this fight or flight reactivity that says, “Danger, danger, Will Robinson. Back up, get away, protect your kids.” You don’t have to pause and ponder. And that’s, your brain will take care of you. That’s the good news. The bad news is that in life, my brain doesn’t know the difference between a rattlesnake and Nan’s criticism.
Jim: Ah.
Ron: My-
Jim: They both bite. (laughs)
Ron: … they both bite.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: Yes.
Ron: And my brain doesn’t know the difference. All it knows is, “Danger, danger. What do you do, Ron?” Well, in my case, and there’s four different ways people respond in fight or flight at that point in time, but for me, I go into either blame or defensiveness or control. Like, I’m, I’m either going to control her, I’m going to perform and get better at something so that she has no reason to be upset with me, or I’m going to counter-blame and somehow make it to be about her. Now, all of that stuff that I do, here’s the crazy thing, guys.
Jim: (laughs)
Ron: It’s all in effort to restore peace within me and with, between us, in our us-ness, as we like to call it. So think about that. That really doesn’t make sense and it’s not helpful.
John: It doesn’t feel right in the moment.
Ron: Rattlesnake, criticism, I need to defend myself and prove to her that she’s wrong about me. So now I’m arguing her into liking me, which never works.
Nan: (laughs)
Ron: Thank you very much. And now she’s even more upset because I’m not listening, I’m not considering what she had to say. And we escalate our negative behavior. Am I getting to peace? No. I’m getting to more conflict. And it’s because my dysregulation triggers her dysregulation and there we go. We’re off and running.
Nan: And round and round it goes.
John: Yeah.
Ron: If I don’t learn how to manage that nanosecond between rattlesnake and my response, things get worse.
Jim: You know, when you say that, it sounds kind of ridiculous. I, I mean that very respectfully.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But it is the mechanism.
Ron: It is the mechanism.
Nan: Yes.
Jim: We can’t distinguish that. So, you know, when we’re talking about slowing down or taking a step back emotionally, how do you help yourself from not noticing the difference?
Ron: Well, you have to understand what I normally do. Like, one of the beautiful things about this book and, uh, Dr. Hargrave’s work, is that you are gonna do some exercises and you’re gonna map and sequence what are the triggers for me, what’s the pain points, and what does it mean to me, and what do I do with it? That’s called coping. And once you see that, it doesn’t mean you can a- instantly change it. There’s a, you need to have a mechanism, we call that the four steps, where you learn how to talk through creating a new response instead of just doing the same old stuff.
Jim: And all of that is to help you self-regulate-
Ron: That’s it.
Jim: … your emotions.
Nan: Exactly.
Ron: And, I mean, the biblical word is self-control.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: Yes. Yes.
Ron: I gotta put on self-control when I, when I feel rattlesnakes in my marriage. And here’s the crazy thing. Most of us spend our entire life trying to get the spouse who, uh, “You’re the rattlesnake, so you’re the one who has to change,” and now I go with some agenda of trying to fix her.
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: The subtitle of this book is Understanding and Managing Yourself. Like, it’s my reactivity that I am in charge of, not her reactivity. And that is a game changer moment that helps couples who often get caught in this escalation to begin to unwind it.
Nan: I was triggered yesterday coming here, all right. I was in pain.
Jim: John will do that to you.
Nan: (laughing) Coming here, coming here with my husband who has, this is his seventh time here.
Jim: Uh-huh.
Nan: All right. So in the previous times coming here, Ron would be a week in his head before he’d come here. Then he’d come here and he’d do his thing, unavailable while he’s here.
Jim: That’s right.
Nan: Maybe other meetings after that outflow after that.
Ron: Sorry. (laughing).
Nan: And then as he, and then as he comes home, he’s still in his head about being here because it might lead to something else, to something else, to something else.
Jim: He’s debriefing in his mind.
Nan: Yes.
Jim: Yeah. And that caused you what?
Nan: So coming here is a trigger of pain-
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: … abandonment.
Jim: Wow.
Nan: “Where are you?”
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: And we’re coming here and I’m thinking, I had to be very mindful on the plane as I’m touching down and he’s talking about, “Well, we’ll do this, and Jim will say this,” and he’s doing all the things. And I’m thinking, “I’m feeling something rising in me. I’m feeling triggered.”
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: And I had to stop and go, “Okay, what am I feeling?”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Nan: “What would old Nan normally do?”
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: Old Nan would normally really get critical and, “Oh, I know exactly what you’ll do while you’re here,” or blame or whatever, take control of the situation. And I had to stop, pray, get grounded and say, “Okay, Holy Spirit, I need some help here.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Nan: “I know you’re my helper. I normally would do this, but I know that I’m God’s child. I know that you’ve given us this opportunity together. And I know that I can walk this out with humility and with the Spirit’s help.”
Jim: You know, and, and the key there, I’m hearing you, Nan, is you have to do this probably several times a day because of that triggering-
Nan: Definitely.
Jim: … mechanism. It’s not just once in a while.
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: These are patterns that we’ve developed.
Nan: Oh, yes.
Ron: That’s right.
Jim: And I think as a couple, h- how to handle that together-
Nan: Mm-hmm. .
Jim: … you know, we, Jean and I have one. We go to dinner and we have a pleasant time and then she wants to bring up family stuff.
Ron: Mm.
Jim: You know, the boys aren’t doing something that we would like to see them do.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And it, it can end in a not so warm place, right?
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, but it’s a pattern. And I’m sure I have my patterns, and I’m less likely to see those-
Nan: Right.
Jim: … as I am to see hers, right? Is that part of the deal?
Nan: Exactly.
Ron: Yes, absolutely.
Nan: Oh, definitely.
Jim: We’re very in tune picking up on their problem. (laughs)
Ron: Right. Exactly. We are super in tune with the speck in the other person’s eye, Matthew 7, but rarely do we notice that log in our eye and take responsibility for it.
Nan: ‘Cause can I-
Ron: I gotta say, I, I wanna compliment her. I mean, listen to what she went through.
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: Listen to the internal, “What’s the truth? I know what the pain is. I know the truth. Um, and I’m gonna choose to respond differently in this situation.” Wow. Right? So by the time she and I began to process, yeah, this is sort of, like, coming back to Ron’s lover.
Jim: Mm.
John: Mm.
Ron: Wow, like, heavy, right? By the time we begin to process that, she’s not coming at me a- as a rattlesnake. She’s coming gentle, she’s coming soft, she’s talking through, she’s taking ownership of… And by the way, we’ve spent many years working through all this pain together. So I’m quick to go, “Yeah, I totally see how this is a space that’s difficult for you and, and I get that and I see that.” And, and I’m over here saying, “Yeah, I’ve been trying to manage me and not be super control guy and come and perform like I always used to do.”
Jim: Right.
Ron: By the way, I was chasing my identity and, and my work. And so to be able to relax and come here and just say, “Yeah, we’re just having a conversation with Jim and John. This is not a big deal,” puts me in a different place.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Ron: See how we’re both understanding and managing ourselves, and that allows us to then bring a better us to one another.
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: It’s a game-
Jim: Well, some of it is understanding the why, you know?
Nan: … yes.
Jim: She needs a space in our case-
Nan: Yes.
Jim: … to be able to express her concerns. And it just seems to be that moment. And I’ve seen that pattern. But obviously there’s not enough time in the rest of our day or something’s going on that this is the place where… And for you, Nan, that’s also true. And this has been so good. It really has. Thank you for being with us. And I do wanna come back next time and pick up the conversation to give people more insight into what you’ve discovered. Man, isn’t it exciting for 20, 30-somethings who are married to say, “Hey, let’s learn from these older couples mistakes,” right?
Ron: Yeah.
Jim: But in the meantime, uh, get a copy of this great book, The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself. And to all of us mismanaged people, (laughing) Amen. Uh, it’s our goal here at Focus to equip you and your spouse, f- uh, to give you those tools that you need to have a wonderful, healthy, thriving in Christ marriage. And I think this is one of the best resources on that marriage topic. Um, these resources do cost money. So we depend on your partnership to help us reach more husbands and wives with this good news message. And according to our research, more than a half a million marriages have benefited from Focus resources just in the last 12 months. And I’m really proud of that.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, that’s reach and impact that we’re doing together. And if I could ask you to consider a gift to the ministry, that’s how it gets done. It’s not our, our twinkle in our eye (laughs) that can make this happen. The power of the Holy Spirit and funded by friends of the ministry is how we change lives. So let’s do it together. Let’s save more marriages.
John: Yeah, make a donation as you can, either a monthly pledge or a one-time gift, and we’ll say thanks by sending the book to you. And, uh, you can donate, get the book, and also connect with one of our counselors, uh, when you call 800-232-6459. That’s 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And thanks for joining us today for this episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Day Two:
Nan Deal: And it was just the same thing, and it just kept cycling, and I kept responding, and he kept responding. And it just was, what were we, 20 something years in and it was like, “It’s either you or me or get us some help,” basically.
Jim Daly: Wow. I mean-
Nan: Because-
Jim: … that’s pretty dramatic.
Nan: … he’s a ther- yeah, he’s a therapist.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: I’m like, “Obviously you can’t fix this, so (laughs) get us some help to help fix this.”
John Fuller: Well, that’s Nan Deal describing, uh, some of the pain points in her marriage to her husband, Ron. And, uh, they’re with us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to unpack a little more, and to help us understand how we can, uh, get to a better spot in our own marriages. I’m John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.
Jim: You know, John, um, I think a- after yesterday’s program, it made me think about the speck in the eye. And I’ve-
John: Mm.
Jim: … never really thought about that verse in the context of marriage, but it’s glaringly obvious. I mean, who’s closer to you than your spouse?
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So that speck in the eye analogy that Jesus gave us in Matthew, which is, look at that log in your own eye before you look at the speck in your spouse’s eye.
John: Mm.
Jim: I’m saying it that way for that application.
John: Right.
Jim: Uh, but man, isn’t that so true, that we’re so quick to see the other person’s faults before we see our own, which is what he’s saying.
John: Right. And I don’t know why, but we, we’re, tend to think it’s, “I’m fine, I’m fine. It’s them. They’re the problem.”
Jim: How about this? “If you can just get your act together, we’d have a great marriage.”
John: (laughs).
Jim: I mean, I think at some point in our 39 years, I think I may have thought of that.
John: (laughs).
Ron: (laughs).
Jim: I don’t want to admit it, but, uh, we’ve had a great discussion last time with Ron and Nan Deal, and we’re gonna continue that discussion today. And we covered concepts about how we trigger one another. And I did confess at that point that I’m really good at pushing those buttons. And that’s probably true for many married couples. We just don’t get off that craziness and, uh, we keep doing that.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: When she hurts me, I push that button. That’s how I get my reward. And it’s not a smart way to do your marriage. And we’re gonna continue today to talk about how to have a better marriage by loving one another.
John: Mm. Yeah. And, uh, the book that forms the basis for our conversation is The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself. And of course, we have copies of that book here at the ministry.
Jim: Ron and Nan, welcome back to Focus on the Family. Good to have you for day two.
Nan: Thank you.
Ron Deal: Thank you. Thank you.
Jim: Yeah. Let me, uh, I couldn’t ask this question because of time constraints last time, but I do wanna pick up with this one. Because in the book you relate to those feelings we have, and the way that we misinterpret communication from our spouse-
John: Mm.
Jim: … based on what we learned reflexively as a child, whatever that might be. And the-
Nan: Mm.
Jim: … book goes into great detail for people to be able to self-analyze and say, “Yeah, that’s me. This is why I react-”
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … “when you push me. I feel insecure. I feel abandoned,” as you mentioned last time, Nan. But in that regard, it’s not true.
John: Mm.
Jim: What we’re experiencing is not the truth.
John: Yeah.
Jim: And that is so critical. I mean, the scripture is full of that example, right? Know what is true.
Ron: Exactly.
Jim: And we know that through knowing scripture, knowing the Lord, loving the Lord. But tie that in a bow for me.
Ron: Yeah. What I would say is there is a truth. To me, my big, um, pain point is I’m not good enough, um, I’m inadequate. And I’m trying to outrun that label, in my own head, and in my wife’s head, and anybody else’s head 24/7, unless I come to see what the capital T truth is, right?
John: Mm.
Ron: There’s a little truth that sometimes I do feel inadequate, and sometimes I’ve really messed up. And whether it was childhood or marriage now, um, yeah, that’s true. But what does that mean? Does that add up to, I’m not okay as a person? That I, my worth and value is gone? No, it doesn’t. I’ll never forget, guys, the day I realize, here’s that capital T truth, God whispering to me. Nan could be disappointed with me in any given moment, and it does not mean (laughs) it’s the end of our marriage.
It doesn’t mean it’s the end of me. It doesn’t mean that that adds up to my worth and value, and that I could actually admit that I was disappointing to her, and it wasn’t going to be the end of the world. Now, I know that sounds really f- funny to say out loud, but for some reason, somewhere in my history, I kind of decided that’s what’s at stake here. And as long as I live with that hypersensitivity, then any disappointment is a monumental moment-
John: Yeah.
Ron: … and I am gonna fight against it as m- much as I can. Well, that just brings out the worst in me, and things spin in all the wrong directions. So for me to be able to go, “Oh, no. No, what is the truth?” God tells me my worth and value is in Jesus Christ, that’s number one. We always say go vertical before you try to do the horizontal. So you remember who you are in Christ. Okay, with that, I also know Nan loves me, and she can be upset or irritated in any given moment. That’s not the end of us. We’ll get through this. I may have something to learn. I can reflect on that. We’ll find our way through. Just relax. Like, all of that sounds simple, but when your brain (laughs) neurologically sets off on a pathway of doing what it knows to do, reacting how it knows to react, it is not simple to slow that thing down and go, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what’s the truth, and how do I live out of it?
Jim: Ron, for us, let me speak from the, the husband’s side-
Ron: Right.
Jim: … because this, this is what I know best. (laughs).
Ron: (laughs).
John: (laughs).
Jim: But, um, there was a day for you where you missed a couple of Nan’s phone calls-
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and you started to fret.
Ron: Yep.
Jim: Like she’s gonna be upset. Has any other guy ever been in that place?
John: Mm. Yep.
Jim: (laughs) All her hands go-
John: Yes.
Jim: … yeah. And we’re running in our heads like-
Ron: Right.
Jim: … “Ugh, I know she’s gonna accuse me of being distracted-”
Nan: Mm.
John: Mm-hmm.
Nan: … fill in those blanks. And then Nan, tell us … And it’s, this is healthy, how you processed it and where your head was at.
Ron: Yeah. So, if anybody who saw and listened yesterday will know that me overworking is part of the things that I do to cope with feeling inadequate. So when I miss those calls, I’m thinking, “Oh, here we go. She’s gonna be mad. She’s gonna walk in a door, she’s gonna unload, and I need to get prepared for that.” And then I remembered my four steps and I said, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. That’s the old Ron, who’s fretting, and anxious, and upset, and already guarded, and already defending myself before she’s ever even come back.”
Jim: (laughs).
Ron: What’s the truth? Well, the truth is maybe I m- m- may have made a mistake. Uh, maybe I missed. Uh, or the truth is she’s not gonna leave me if, even if she is disappointed. So calm down, Ron, let’s give her … And here’s another truth. Nan’s growing. We’re changing. Our usness is different than it used to be. Let’s give this a chance to see how it plays out and be more calm about it. Sure enough, she walked in the door-
Jim: And let’s give it to Nan.
John: Yeah. (laughs)
Nan: And I was like, “Hey.”
Jim: (laughs)
Ron: She was nice. Sweet.
Nan: How are you?
Jim: Well, not only that, but you had earbuds in, right?
Nan: Yes.
Jim: And you weren’t that concerned about Ron’s day. (laughs)
Nan: No, I wasn’t that concerned.
Ron: (laughs).
Nan: And, you know, my triggers are abandonment. And so not him picking up, or even answering a text or a call-
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: … is, “Oh, he’s too busy-”
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “For me.”
Nan: “Everything else is more important-”
John: Yeah.
Nan: … “than me.”
Ron: And the beaut-
Jim: But that, you didn’t experience it.
Nan: I did not experience that-
Jim: Yeah. Wow, that’s growth.
Nan: … because I’ve been working on-
John: Yeah.
Nan: … me.
Ron: There it is.
Nan: And being mindful of me.
John: Yeah.
Nan: You know, I can see now, a- that day we went into Dr. Hargrave’s office, and I saw him, with a sentence, humble Ron, I really in that moment thought, “Yay, he has fixed him.”
Jim: Mm. (laughs)
Nan: When in fact, there was so much in me that I needed to trust God with, and I needed to work on me.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: And so in that moment walking in was after months of, “Wait a minute, he could be busy. He could be really doing something very important, and was it really important what you needed? And if you really needed him, you could’ve said, ‘I’ve fallen and (laughs) I can’t get up.'”
Jim: (laughs).
Nan: I mean, you could’ve given him a different message, but it’s more of a mindfulness in me of he’s changing and you can change your response in this moment.
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: Guys, h- you gotta hear that. She comes in in peace.
Nan: I don’t just assume the worst.
John: Yeah.
Ron: I was sitting in peace.
Nan: Yes.
Ron: What for a n- a second or two, I thought was about to be a disaster, turned out to be absolutely nothing, in part, due to both of us doing our work.
John: Yeah.
Ron: Dealing with the log in our own eye. So when we finally got together, I was abl- she walked by, said hello, had a smile. I’m like, “Wow, this is amazing.” And a few minutes later, I just checked in, “Hey, sorry I missed your calls. Was that anything?” And she was like, “Yeah, no, it wasn’t a big deal, but yeah, we can talk about that.” And so it didn’t have to be about abandonment and inadequacy.
Nan: Right.
Ron: Because-
John: Yeah.
Ron: … we didn’t let it go there.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. And I think, um, you know, here you are working on things, this is good.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And you’re moving forward, and you have these examples of where it’s not the same pattern.
Nan: Yes.
Jim: It’s a better, new pattern.
Nan: Yes.
Jim: And you’re racking up victories in-
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … your relationship.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Nan, you then started to experience something with your son, both of you.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But it really devastated you, a- a- as it should, obviously.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But what happened with Connor, and what was your reaction over the long haul?
Nan: Well, we saw Terry in 2007, and our son died of a MRSA staff infection after being sick for just 10 days, which came out of nowhere.
Ron: Yeah.
John: Mm.
Nan: He was 12.
Jim: And that was in ’08?
Nan: 0- ’09.
Jim: That was ’09.
Nan: So truly the Lord’s provision, being in Terry’s office and working with him for two years, to set a stage for then, the rug just was completely pulled out from underneath us.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Nan: And then at that point, Terry was just our grief counselor.
Jim: Right.
Nan: And, um, so very grateful for the time he spent with us, just caring and hearing our grief. He was so kind with it, wasn’t he?
Ron: Yeah, absolutely.
Nan: But, um, in the beginning, Ron and I grieved very much the same, and he never left me.
John: Mm-hmm.
Nan: It was, we were thrust together, we had the same sorrows, we had the same anger, we had the same doubt and disillusionment with faith in God and what has just happened, and we were saying “Why?” together. And then about four years in, (laughs) I saw him journeying to some resolution, so to speak-
Jim: Uh-huh.
Nan: … as he was, uh, reading Job. And he had some, not just it’s over, but some peace about it.
Jim: Mm.
Nan: And some surrender with his grief. And I was still just feeling so abandoned.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: So abandoned, so lost. But you have to understand, um, I poured myself into my boys, I feel like it was my identity, and Connor and I had such a- (laughs).
John: Mm.
Nan: … sweet and special relationship. Um, he was the one that had my back. All three of my boys adore me, but Connor just had my back. And I just-
Jim: He had something special.
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Nan: It truly was.
Jim: And that’s good.
Nan: And he, um, he was the glue in between the boys, too. So there was-
Jim: Mm.
Nan: … not only my loss and Ron’s loss, but it just completely devastated our family and our other two children. So-
Jim: Right.
Nan: … our youngest is sleeping beside our bed for two years-
Jim: Mm.
Nan: … our oldest is 14 at the time, and who wants to be the 14-year-old brother who has a, a brother that’s gone? I mean, going to middle school like that?
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: Middle school’s hard enough. And so, um, I’m navigating all of that and just feeling like, “Where are you, God, in this?” And, um, as you said, I feel like my faith wasn’t as strong as it is now.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: And so there were just avenues and ways with numbing, with alcohol and prescription medication, that was my way of coping for about a decade.
Jim: Yeah. I mean, that’s big.
Nan: It’s true.
Jim: And again, I so appreciate that, because people are there.
Ron: Yeah.
Nan: Oh, sure.
Jim: You know, these are-
Nan: It’s-
Jim: … good Christian people-
Nan: … it’s huge-
Jim: … but it-
Nan: … in the grieving community.
Jim: … that’s probably one of the most difficult things somebody can experience in life. My brother, my oldest brother, Mike, and his wife-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … had that-
John: Mm.
Jim: … similar loss with cancer, with their son.
Nan: I’m so sorry.
Jim: But i- it happens.
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: And, and just that, I mean, it’s like, Lord-
John: Yeah.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … you know, you start doing the equation, right?
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “I’ve lived my life for you.”
John: Right.
Nan: Sure.
Jim: “Why would you take my son or my daughter from me?”
Nan: Sure.
Jim: And it’s not a healthy place to be. We don’t have those answers.
Nan: Right. But- And I feel like I was doing it well, because also (laughs) this is a prideful part of me, I feel like I was doing it right.
Jim: Hmm.
Nan: Because I didn’t have that growing up.
Jim: Right.
Nan: So I’m gonna do it right. And you know what? We were great. Of anything in our marriage, parenting was great.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: We just connected and did it together in tan-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Nan: … it was just a beautiful thing. And I just feel like we had this Norman Rockwell painting, with this gol- we truly had a golden retriever-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Nan: … and it just, the boys would hug each other and kiss each other before they’d go to bed at night. And Connor was reading to us out of his chapter book, and a- things were beautiful like that with the boys. And it, you know, we were on the cusp of the preteens. So it was, everything was still really-
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: … just sweet. It was a sweet season and it was like … And we prayed for them, and prayed about them and, and then it was like … and we were taking them to church. I feel like, you know, I was checking off all those boxes, Lord.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Nan: I was doing A and B and C, and really. And he was a healthy kid. It came outta nowhere and I just, we n- uh, we never saw it coming.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Let me, i- there’s two questions here. I think one, Ron, is for you, seeing Nan suffer in that way.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And like she described, you’re coming to this place of some resolution. You never g- gonna be-
John: Mm-hmm.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … completely resolved on that-
John: Right, right.
Jim: … with the Lord. But, but you’re getting to a place saying, “Okay, Lord, I feel like I’m through it. I’m moving forward.” But Nan is in trouble.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, drinking, and even prescription drugs, like you said-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … for about 10 years.
Nan: Yeah.
Ron: Yeah.
Jim: What are you thinking at that point?
Ron: Yeah. It was really difficult. Um, i- safety in a relationship is everything. And, um, the more she numbed, the less safe things got in our relationship, right?
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: So some of those old triggers are now super sensitive.
Jim: Sure.
Ron: And I’m trying to manage me, and trying to figure out how to love-
Nan: Yeah.
Ron: … and be in connection with her, and be supportive. And at the same time, not liking how she would react and respond.
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: And by the way, I didn’t even fully understand the depth of it.
Nan: Yeah, he did not know-
Ron: Like she would wait till I would go to sleep, and then she’d get out-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Ron: … that second bottle of wine. And-
Nan: Yeah.
Ron: … so by day, things were sort of okay, you know?
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Ron: It was just by night-
Nan: Mm.
Ron: … things got-
Jim: Right.
Ron: … really difficult. Yeah, it was hard.
Nan: In his defense, um, and I was lying to everybody. I was lying to all my physicians-
Jim: Mm.
Nan: … to keep the prescription medication going. Yeah. A lot of that-
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: … kinda had the same effect as alcohol, you know, just-
Ron: Yeah.
Nan: … to numb the feelings, um, the a- anxiety medication. And then, um, it was always at night, and as soon as he’d go to bed, and he’s a deep, deep sleeper. And, you know, we’re empty nest. My boys are off to college and living their lives, and, um, it really took on a life of its own. It truly took on-
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: … a life of its own. And I, I lied to a lot of people. As I’ve come out with this, I’ve had dear friends going, “Why didn’t you tell me?”
Jim: Right.
Nan: My sister, sister-in-law, family, frie- you know, I-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Nan: … and I feel like it was the enemy’s way of isolating me.
Jim: Absolutely.
John: Mm-hmm.
Ron: Yeah.
Nan: I, I truly was in bondage with it, because there were multiple times I tried to get off of it, and I had so much withdrawal. That scared me. But also, he would be whispering to me all the time, like, I’d think maybe I should go to rehab.
Jim: Mm.
Ron: Yeah.
Nan: And I remember thinking, “Yeah, go to rehab? And your husband’s just started this huge ministry.”
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: “You’ve moved to Little Rock, and here you go. Oh, you’ll ruin that for him.”
John: Mm.
Nan: I mean, the lies of the enemy.
Jim: Mm.
Nan: And I tell you, all of that from childhood-
Jim: Oh.
Nan: … me taking care of things myself, taking care of self with marriage, and then that was my way of taking care of this grief-
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: … and it just became chains.
John: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. You know that-
Nan: Bondage.
Jim: … that, that scripture-
John: Mm.
Jim: … John 10:10, some people may not know it.
Nan: Oh.
Jim: Christians who read the Word know this one. This was the first scripture that, uh, a family who gave me a Bible when I was 15-
Ron: Ah.
Jim: … wrote in there, John-
Nan: Oh.
Jim: … 10:10.
Ron: Ah.
Jim: And I read it, you know, it’s a little freaky.
Nan: It’s scary.
Jim: You know, the, the thief, Satan, the thief comes to-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … steal, kill, and destroy. That’s an example of it.
Ron: Yeah.
Nan: Yes, exactly.
Jim: How that isolation, you know-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and, and that’s exactly what he does. Each and every day we live-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … he’s trying to do that to us. As five-year-olds, as 15-year-olds-
Nan: Yes.
Jim: … as 25-year-olds-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … all the way up to 70-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … 80-year-olds.
Ron: That’s right.
Jim: It’s his mission every day-
Nan: It is.
Jim: … to take us out.
Nan: It is.
Jim: I need to ask that question, h- how did this come right? ‘Cause people are maybe even in that spot.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Nan: Yeah, sure.
Jim: We did a broadcast not long ago with a woman who was in a very similar situation-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … as you.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Jim: A- alcohol became her night beverage to cope.
Nan: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Jim: How did you rectify that? How did you come out of that dark place?
Nan: It was COVID. (laughs).
Ron: (laughs)
Jim: Yeah, okay.
Nan: COVID was so good to me.
Ron: (laughs).
Jim: Mm.
Nan: Um, Ron had gone on a five-day working trip, and had caveated it with, “Hey, I’m gonna be going here and here and here, and I’m, may not be accessible to you,” which triggered the abandonment and the pain. I went on a five-day bender, he was gone for five days. He comes home, I’m teaching at the time, and we are sequestered, like the kids are saying, “Mrs. Deal, will I see you?” And I’m like, “Well, I don’t know.” And, you know, school shut down.
Jim: Mm.
Nan: Anytime he traveled, boy, I had somebody for lunch and breakfast and, uh, Nan would take it on herself to just have things in place so I wasn’t alone. And, um-
Ron: COVID stripped all of that away.
Nan: COVID stripped-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Nan: … everything. The restaurants were closing. Friends were saying, “I can’t come for the weekend.” And he was gone, he came in, and our country, our world was shutting down.
Jim: Uh-huh.
Nan: I had no job, I had no anything. He gets up, he comes home, and he had a look on his face of … I mean, I had hit bottom. I had gone on a bender that weekend-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Nan: … probably 52 calls, and so many terrible texts that I sent him-
Jim: Mm.
Nan: … unbeknownst to me, not knowing that I had done it, um, very angry, bitter, and, um, he comes home and he goes, “Who, who are you and what is happening?”
Jim: Mm.
Nan: And I knew in that moment that I was probably losing him, but I had already looked in the mirror and said, “I don’t even know who you are.”
Jim: Yeah, you’re losing yourself.
Nan: I- I’d already lost myself.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: And, um, we get up that Monday and he’s like, “Hey, I gotta get on a Zoom (laughs) and figure this Zoom thing out and this pandemic thing with my team,” which kind of was triggering, but I was like, “Okay.” I had nothing. What are you gonna do with kindergartners at that point?
Ron: (Laughs).
Nan: I mean, they’re just saying, “Just stay at home.”
Jim: (laughs).
Nan: I have nothing. My boys are gone, Ron’s in there, he’s gone. It is a pandemic and I am a- completely isolated. But I go into our guest bedroom and I think, “Oh, I’ll do yoga. That might help.”
Jim: (laughs).
Nan: And I laid down on that mat and couldn’t get up-
John: Mm.
Nan: … off from that mat for about two hours. It was my bottoming.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Mm.
Nan: I cried for two hours, like I used to cry over my son.
Jim: Oh, yeah.
Nan: I was at the end of me, and I cried out to the Lord and I said, “I cannot do this anymore. I have nothing.” I literally cried uncle and I said, “If, if you would have me, I wanna do it your way.”
Jim: Wow. Yeah.
Nan: And I felt that peace that surpasses all understanding that day.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: It was as if He had taken His hands and completely wiped me off, and I got up off that mat and I was like, “I am going to do it your way.” And-
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: … I did not stop the medication right away, but that night I had no alcohol, and I had not one withdrawal.
Jim: Yeah. You know, Nan-
John: Mm.
Jim: … um, the scripture in Psalms that says He’s close to the broken-hearted-
Nan: Broken-hearted.
Ron: Yeah.
Jim: … and saves those crushed in spirit-
Nan: Crushed in spirit.
Jim: … the right question for us is run there.
Nan: Yeah.
Ron: Yes.
Jim: Why don’t we run there?
Nan: Surrender.
Ron: Humility.
Jim: ‘Cause that’s where you’re gonna meet the Lord, even in that pain.
Ron: Yeah.
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, your tears are real.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But isn’t it amazing of, like Romans 8:28, the good-
Ron: Yeah.
Nan: Yes.
Jim: … that God brought from your bottoming out?
Nan: Yes.
Jim: I mean, it is a humiliating thing-
Nan: I’m-
Jim: … thing to do.
Nan: … grateful for that day.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: March 17th.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: 2020.
Jim: I mean, remember it forever.
Nan: Forever.
Jim: ‘Cause that was really when it happened.
Nan: And it was, I really feel as if He was like, “I’ve been waiting for this-”
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: … “all your life-”
Jim: (laughs).
Ron: Yeah.
Nan: … “for you to let go of the reins. Yay. Okay, now we can do this.” And that moment-
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: … that Terry said-
Ron: Hmm.
Nan: … “If you’ll allow God to heal all of the brokenness, it’ll be the most beautiful thing that will come out of you.” I get it now.
Jim: Yeah.
Nan: I get it now. And I wanna bring God glory, because I know there are other people like-
Jim: Oh, you’re talking to them right now and, uh, people are in that place, hurting in one way or the other and-
Nan: Yep.
Jim: … you know, there’s many more things to say here, Ron.
Ron: Yeah.
Jim: A- I think one of the things, to tie a bow around this, a concept of the peace cycle-
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Nan: Mm.
Jim: We talked about the pain cycle. I think this would be a good place to talk about the peace cycle.
Ron: The pain cycle-
Jim: And, and then people need to get the book.
Ron: Right.
Nan: (laughs).
Ron: The, the pain cycle for her was in abandonment, run and escape. Um, the peace cycle for her is, “No, with God, I can face my pain, I can move toward-”
Nan: Face my fear.
Ron: … “Ron rather than run away from Ron.” Um, i- I’m working on me, she’s working on her. We have a totally different dynamic between us. We are far from perfect. We are still working on us-
Nan: Right.
Ron: … every single day. There’s a humility decision to be made, and, and yet it just brought us to a totally different place. I, I will comment, that was day one of her recovery.
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Ron: She got into a 12-step group, s- kept going. We work with a, a parents who have lost a child group. Like, we are still giving, receiving, exploring-
Nan: Mm-hmm.
Ron: … learning. Every day we get triggered, every day we have an opportunity to deal with the log in our own eye and manage us. And man, the Lord is doing some really amazing things.
Jim: I think it’s great. Nan, I, you’re my hero.
Nan: (Laughs) Oh.
Jim: No, seriously, I-
Nan: God’s good.
Jim: … you know, it chokes me up. That vulnerability is-
Nan: God’s good.
Jim: … good.
Ron: Mm-hmm.
Jim: ‘Cause people, you know, people look at Christian people and go, “Oh, they’re perfect.”
Ron: Yeah.
Jim: “They’re not broken like me.”
Ron: Nope.
Jim: And we’re all broken.
Nan: Yes.
Jim: And that’s the beauty of it, but not everybody realizes their brokenness.
Nan: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jim: So thank you.
Nan: You’re welcome.
Jim: Really, thank you so much for that-
Nan: Thank you, God.
Jim: … openheartedness and, and I’m just praying that if you’re in that spot, you don’t hold back.
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: Get in touch with us. We’re here. We got counselors who can help you. We’ve got a heap of resources, including Ron and Nan’s book, The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship through Understanding and Managing Yourself. There’s an idea.
Nan: Yeah.
Jim: How do we get control of these things that shaped us as children, mostly in the wrong way, and then reshape them for a godly way.
Ron: Mm.
Jim: And that’s the broad concept here-
John: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Jim: … live your life in a Christlike way and, uh, great to do that in your marriage. So again, thanks for being with us.
Ron: Thank you.
Nan: Thank you for having us.
John: Yeah, there are so many ways Focus on the Family is here for you in your marriage. Give us a call, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And we can schedule a time for you to speak with one of our caring Christian counselors. We’d be happy to tell you about our Hope Restored Marriage Intensives. We also host marriage getaway weekends for you and your spouse if you just wanna reconnect and, uh, renew your commitment to each other. And of course, we have Ron and Nan’s book, and, uh, we’d be happy to tell you more about that. Uh, we’ll send a copy when you make a donation of any amount. Uh, it all begins with that call to 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: And John, here’s a comment from a woman named Joy who recently attended Hope Restored with her husband. Joy said, “Over the years, I have let my heart become hardened into something I didn’t recognize or wanna be, but this intensive helped me show my heart and my feelings to my spouse, and give our 30-year marriage a chance. I am leaving here with renewed hope for our marriage, and I believe the Lord worked miracles in our hearts and lives.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Wow.
John: I love hearing that. That’s j- that’s an amazing transformation.
Jim: It is, and that’s what we’re looking for. We hear miracle stories like that literally every week, and that’s how your generosity is impacting couples and transforming families. Think of keeping a family together, what that does for them as a couple, but what does that do for their children? And I wanna invite you to do ministry through Focus on the Family today. Give generously, it’s a lifetime investment into God’s kingdom.
John: Yeah, and our number again, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or make that contribution at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And coming up tomorrow, Rhonda Stoppe has some powerful lessons about motherhood from moms in the Bible.
Rhonda Stoppe: That’s such an important season in our children’s lives to pour into them. And I can only imagine Jochebed nursing that baby, singing songs to him of deliverance, songs of Yahweh, and imprinting on him a love for her God. Even in the short season, she had him.
