Focus on the Family Broadcast

Preview:

John Burke: So here’s what we have to realize. You know, 2 Peter 3:8 says, “To the Lord, a thousand years is like a day, and a day is like a thousand years.” Time doesn’t work the same way, and they say this. And so God simultaneously is full of joy and at the same time, but even when I say the same time, that’s time bound. So we can’t do that. Grieves over his lost children. And so what we have to realize is that the cross is where God’s justice and His immense love came together, and made a way for every one of His children to come back home.

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John Fuller: That’s John Burke, and he’s our guest today on Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller. Thanks for joining us. Your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: Can you kinda feel I’m exploding here? I love having John Burke on the broadcast, and-

John: He’s energizing.

Jim: He is. And the- the information he’s talking about is so enlightening, and it just makes you think more broadly about the Lord and what He’s up to, and His attributes. And I think it’s all good and information that every one of us should be devouring, because of the people around us, so we can articulate, um, who God of Heaven is like, what are His attributes, what these experiences are that near-death people have. They go through something that most people would say is unexplainable. But John has done such a great job to capture those stories, to categorize them, kinda putting his engineering mind to work.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then explaining ’em through scripture. Not something we need to back away from or shy away from, but something we need to embrace and say, “Hey, we know why they’re having these experiences,” right?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s such a refreshing way to go, and I’m looking forward to today’s program.

John: And if you didn’t catch the last episode, where John kinda laid the foundation for what we’re talking about today, go back and watch or listen. Uh, we’re talking today about John Burke’s book, Imagine the God of Heaven: Near Death Experiences, God’s Revelation, and the Love You’ve Always Wanted. And, uh, we said this quickly last time, Jim. Uh, let me just punch it again. John founded Gateway Church in Austin, Texas. He served there many, many years. Uh, he and his wife, Kathy, have two adult children and two grandchildren, and, uh, that book is available from our website, that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: John, welcome back.

John B: Great to be back.

Jim: (laughs) Okay, so people that missed last time. They’re just turning in right now. Uh, that quick recap. Uh, your father, near-death experience. Why in the world did you get interested in this as an agnostic? Who cares what’s after this life, kinda attitude.

John B: Yeah. Yeah, I was an engineer before I went into ministry. I was agnostic and skeptical, um, about God, about Jesus, all of it. And-

Jim: I think that gives great validity to what you have discovered, frankly.

John B: Well, and I think it’s… I think I’m a case in point of what God is doing through these testimonies.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: And I think that’s what they are.

Jim: You’re evidence of it.

John B: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs).

John B: So I read the first study o- that coined the term, “near-death experience,” and I said, “Oh my gosh, this could be evidence that this stuff is real.”

Jim: Right.

John B: And that led me ultimately to get in, you know, studying the Bible, and I came to faith in Jesus, and left engineering, uh, for ministry. And I’ve always had a curiosity, what are these near-death experiences? When someone clinically dies, but is resuscitated. Sometimes minutes, sometimes hours later, and they say experienced Heaven, sometimes hell, God. And after 35 years of studying these, thousands of them, I wrote Imagine Heaven back in 2015. And really showing how what these people are saying they’re experiencing of Heaven, of hell, is what the Bible’s been saying all along. In Imagine the God of Heaven, which, uh, I’ve just coming out with, I’m writing similarly, but focusing on something that they would say to me over and over and over again, which is, “Of all the beauty of Heaven, of all the wonderful reunions, of all the mysterious, uh, colors and beauty, all that, nothing-” and they said, “Nothing could compare to being in the presence of God.”

Jim: Wow.

John B: And so Imagine the God of Heaven is really a comprehensive book about God’s love story. You know, the scriptures from beginning to end, you know, from Genesis to Revelation starts with a relationship, relationship gone south. Relationship pursued, to the point of sacrifice. And it ends with a wedding.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: It’s a love story. That’s the context. But I’m also showing the character, and the heart, and the attributes of God, the mystery and majesty. You know, like the Trinity. Like, how do you make sense of that?

Jim: Oh, yeah.

John B: And-

Jim: Yeah.

John B: … and the wonders of God’s sovereignty, and yet, our free will. And all this mystery. And then the joy of God.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: And walking with a God of, who- who’s actually fun.

Jim: Which is what it should be.

John B: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, I so love those attributes of God. I look to those. Love, joy, peace, goodness, you know-

John B: Yeah, so what I-

Jim: … patience, wow.

John B: … what I’m trying to do is show what the scriptures teach-

Jim: Yeah.

John B: … but illustrated through 70 of these people. And I’ve interviewed almost all of ’em.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: Personally.

Jim: I know. This is great. Um, let’s… Chapter two in your book. You deal with some of the nay-saying.

John B: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, in fact, one of the most common things that professionals will say, medical professionals, “Well, maybe the brain is releasing dopamine, and this is a- a way for the human being to slip into death, uh, in a more euphoric way.”

John B: Right.

Jim: That’s been a common medical-

John B: Right.

Jim: … retort.

John B: Right.

Jim: But you’ve- you’ve got an answer for that. What is it?

John B: Yeah, my whole chapter two is, uh-

Jim: (laughs).

John B: … NDEs, skeptics.

Jim: The near-death experience people.

John B: Yeah, near-death experiences and skeptics. And, um, these are common. I just read a headline that everybody sends me, of course.

Jim: Of course.

John B: With every headline. CNN, um, “New study finds that near-death experiences are just in the brain.” And, eh, even the article, that’s not what it… the article concludes-

Jim: When you read the article.

John B: No.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: You have to actually read the article and realize that the brain blips they’re getting studying people whi- while they’re dying, none of the people that reported NDEs had the brain blips.

Jim: Yeah, they’re brain-dead.

John B: But, oh, well, forget the facts, right? (laughs) You know. But here’s the thing. Uh, there have been about 30 alternate explanations to, you know, negate what near-death experiencers commonly say, which is, “The soul lives on after this life. There is a real Heaven and hell, and there is a real God.” That’s their simple explanation. All the alternate explanations are trying to wipe that away.

Jim: No matter what their background.

John B: Oh, yeah.

Jim: I mean, these are religions-

John B: It could be-

Jim: … from around the world.

John B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jim: Yeah, that’s what I mean.

John B: What people are experiencing-

Jim: I mean, it’s not predisposed.

John B: No, no.

Jim: And it’s not pushing a Christian perspective, although that’s what they encounter.

John B: Right.

Jim: Because it’s true.

John B: Yes.

Jim: That’s why I get so excited about this, John, because I think it is so revelatory that Christians should embrace this, not run from it, not be shy about it.

John B: No, I think-

Jim: We should have the explanation.

John B: I think this is God’s global apologetic in our age of, you know, globally interconnected-

Jim: Yeah. Which is exciting.

John B: Yeah. Um, but, but important. It is important that Christians make sense of it. Because otherwise-

Jim: Right.

John B: … people are going to interpret it however they’re gonna interpret it.

Jim: Correct, absolutely. Last time we talked about that attribute of God that we so appreciate, which is His love for us. And you described it as something we can’t even imagine. We think we know the word love, but when you’re in the presence of God, love is defined very differently, right? Like an atomic bomb going off.

John B: Well, and not only that. That’s why I- I try to give so many of their perspectives in their own words because that’s what-

Jim: Yeah.

John B: … it expands your categories of… ‘Cause we… God is love. Okay.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: But what does that mean?

Jim: Right.

John B: And how does that change us now? And that’s what I think, when you listen to the way people experience… three of them in Imagine the God of Heaven say the same thing that just hit me. And what they said is, “You know, I’m standing there in God’s presence, and I knew this wasn’t the case, but I felt like I was His special kid. Like I was the only He loved.”

Jim: (laughs) Right.

John B: Dean- Dean Braxton told me, he said, “I, you know, I felt like I was the only one He loved, but then I thought about my wife at the time, and, and I realized He loved her the same. And then any person I thought of, I realized, He sees them as the only one.”

Jim: Yeah.

John B: I mean, you know, for me, you- you’ve heard people sometimes maybe say, “If you were the only one, Jesus still would have gone to the cross for you.”

Jim: Yeah, yeah.

John B: But is that true? I don’t know. I mean-

Jim: But it’s what you feel.

John B: But these people, these people are saying-

Jim: In His presence.

John B: No, He really does feel that way about you.

Jim: Yeah. That- that’s so exciting. So, again, for the viewers, for the listeners, if they didn’t hear that description last time, go back and listen to it. You’ll be encouraged. That’s God’s love. God’s compassion. You have a story of a man, I think, in Australia, who demonstrates this. I think his name is Wayne. And, uh, but in that compassion category. God’s compassion for us.

John B: Well, Wayne, yeah, Wayne is an aerospace engineer and a lawyer. Um, and you know, when he- he died, uh, had a massive heart attack, and then was revived. He said this God of light. He can see, and he’s coming towards this God of light. But then he sees these arms stretched out wide deep in the light. Two arms stretched out-

Jim: Yeah.

John B: … like, like, “Come on.”

Jim: “Give me a hug.”

John B: “Give me a hug.”

Jim: (laughs).

John B: And- and they do experience that. But as he was moving toward the Lord, um, and he had just recently accepted Jesus, like, a week before this happened.

Jim: Oh, man.

John B: Yeah. And he said, “I feel so filled up with this enormous love.” He said it kept growing and growing, “Until I thought I’m going to burst.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

John B: And then, um, it starts to go down. It starts to subside a little. And he realizes, “He heard my thoughts.” And then he goes, “Don’t stop, I want more.”

Jim: (laughs).

John B: And he hears a chuckle from the Lord, and He fills him back up, till he’s, like, gonna burst.

Jim: I love it.

John B: And- and this is the thing that’s just… It’s hard to imagine, but it’s important to imagine. What people say in God’s presence is that every relationship we have on Earth is just a metaphor of this relationship we were meant to have with the one who created us.

Jim: That makes perfect sense.

John B: Even, I mean, not only child to parent, friend to friend, best friend who knows you and gets you and does things with you. But also spouse to spouse.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: Like, they talk about an ecstasy that there’s no other thing like-

Jim: On Earth.

John B: … on Earth-

Jim: Yeah, think of that.

John B: Well, think about that. Because, and this is a really important thing. Because so many times on Earth, we’re like, “I- I missed it. My life has missed it. I’ve- I’m never going to experience this, or I’m never going to experience that.” Or, it’s not true. It’s not true. Everything on this Earth is but a shadow-

Jim: Right.

John B: … of the real thing to come.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: And so, you don’t have to live in regret. You don’t have to live with remorse, wondering, you know, “Did I just miss it?” No, live for the Lord, ’cause you haven’t missed it.

Jim: Right.

John B: And you won’t.

Jim: And it’ll come.

John B: It’ll come.

Jim: John, there seems to be, and there, uh, is always this tension between His justice, His righteousness, and His love. And it’s almost like we fall into two camps as human beings. People that are, you know, drawn toward the love of God and feel forgiven, and that’s good. And then others that are drawn toward the righteousness of God. And they live a life of that, um, uh, righteousness, and…But speak to that tension that exists, and then what does God want from us? I mean…

John B: Well, God experiences the same tension. And, and this is the beauty of hearing people talk about in His presence, as we talked about in our last broadcast. Several of the people I interviewed talked about In Heaven’s, one, you know, I talked about, um, Erica. But also Randy K., who’s a CEO, who had embolisms, just shut his body down. And, um, he cries out to Jesus. He’s in Jesus’ presence. Jesus takes him to the throne of God. And there, um, not only has he experienced the love of God, but he also, there comes a point where the Lord shows him people on Earth who are going about their lives completely just-

Jim: Oblivious?

John B: … oblivious to His-

Jim: (laughs) Yeah.

John B: … to His nearness. He’s near to all of us.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: He’s near to all of us. Mo-

Jim: Busyness does keep us from understanding that.

John B: Yeah. And, and he said, “All of a sudden, I felt, I heard a moaning throughout Heaven.” He said, “It was a… like, a moa- like, a grief, but a deep, deep grief.” And he realized, it was the Father’s heart for His lost children.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

John B: A deep moaning. Now, several, I told you, had that. And at the same time, God experiences this joy, laughter, fun, and so here’s what we have to realize. You know, 2 Peter 3:8 says, “To the Lord, a year, a thousand years is like a day, and a day is like a thousand years.”

Jim: Uh-huh.

John B: Time doesn’t work the same way, and they say this. And so God simultaneously is full of joy and at the same time, but even when I say the same time, that’s time-bound.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: So we can’t do that.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: Grieves over his lost children.

Jim: Like a father.

John B: And so what we have to realize is that the cross is where God’s justice and his immense love came together and made a way.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: And made a way for every one of his children to come back.

Jim: Can I ask you this? Sometimes I feel like we’re stressing out about those two attributes of God. And there is a sense of, “Relax and fall into God.”

John B: Trust.

Jim: I mean, trust him. He will show you.

John B: Trust Him.

Jim: I mean, we get wrapped up about not living perfectly. We blown it. Now we’re on this just side of God, feeling the shame of not living up to the standard. And then, you know, desiring to fall into the love of God. And then that gets sloppy because you can go anything you want. Then you just go say, “Dad, forgive me, okay?”

John B: Exactly. And that’s why, I think- I think reading Imagine the God of Heaven, which is both the scripture with these 70 people and what the experienced in His presence will show you that it’s not an either/or.

Jim: The tension is what God wants.

John B: Well, but I would say it’s the ri- getting the right focus.

Jim: Okay.

John B: So the right focus, the… If God were primarily interested in our morality, in us doing right and not doing wrong, if He’s truly God, don’t you think He could make us do right-

Jim: (laughs).

John B: … and prevent us from doing wrong?

Jim: Right.

John B: So why all this ridiculous freedom to do wrong? If He just was cared about us doing the right thing and not the wrong thing.

Jim: ‘Cause He wants your heart.

John B: ‘Cause He wants you.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: He wants you. He doesn’t want your righteousness. Your righteousness to Him is like filthy rags.

Jim: Right, you can’t do it.

John B: So if we think we’re really good and we’ve done good, and these other people haven’t, you know, come to the Lord and experience His grace.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: Because none of us have.

Jim: John, let’s move to, since we’re in the deep weeds here on (laughs) God’s attributes, theology, which takes us to something, the Christian community, we call the Trinity.

John B: Yeah.

Jim: So for some listening, they may- may not even understand what that is. Many Christians may not understand. Describe the Trinity and what person did you encounter that had a near-death experience that related to the Trinity.

John B: Yeah, and this is one of my-

Jim: (laughs) This is big.

John B: … this is one of my favorites because, you know, in section three of the book, we go into the majesty and the mystery of God. These things that are category blowers. I mean, they just-

Jim: Yeah, it’s hard to fathom-

John B: … they blow your mind.

Jim: … in- in this human life.

John B: And the- f- God is one God. And- and so the Bible speaks of God as one, and yet even in the Jewish Old Testament, you start to see this Son of God who is going to come as the Messiah and the Savior. And so we… I go into that, how that was before Jesus ever came. And so the Bible reveals God in a mystery. There’s only one, but revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jim: Right.

John B: Now, to us, that is a contradiction. But it’s actually, it’s a paradox. It’s not a contradiction. There are a lot of paradoxes in science. I go into some of them. The, you know, quantum double-slit experiment. I’m not gonna go in, to waste time on it.

Jim: Thank you (laughter).

John B: But- but there are paradoxes that we see even in nature. Our scientists have posited the only way to make sense of this is there’s a fifth dimension beyond our three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. Or more dimensions. Well, I think that’s what… In fact, these people that I interviewed said, “Yeah, this is an experience in dimensions beyond ours.” And so, the interesting thing is, you have people experiencing the triune God. And by the way, trinity’s not a word in the Bible, right? It’s just this mystery revealed. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But some of them that… They just blow me away. For instance, um, these two young girls who both became nurses later in life. Heidi and Suzanne, who knew nothing about the Bible, experience Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God. Which they even now say, “I can’t really put it into words.”

Jim: Huh.

John B: So Heidi, um, who has become a dear friend, uh, she grew up in a Jewish home with a father and mother who were- were atheists, agnostics. And her father had a mantra that he said every day to his three girls. “There is no God, your life is worthless. Jesus Christ is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind.” And it was a pretty abusive home, by the way.

Jim: Yeah, it sounds like.

John B: But she… Oh, well, way more than that.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: But she always believed in God.

Jim: Huh.

John B: And she always prayed to God and felt every night that He was comforting her in all of her… She would, you know, tell Him, wha- all the injustices happening. She felt comforted and kinda rocked to sleep. Every night as a little girl. When she’s 16, her horse, she loved horseback riding. Flying down, you know, bareback. But her horse rears up, steps off a cliff and falls on- across her chest and crushes her. She’s 30 feet above her body, sees her, you know, she knows she’s dead. And she said, “I felt great. The only problem is, I didn’t like that my sisters had to see me die.” And Jesus then takes her hand and she says, “They take off.” She said, “Like Superman and Lois Lane flying.”

Jim: (laughter).

John B: But they weren’t just flying. She said it was, “I looked down, and it was like a wave of light pushing us, like at the speed of light.” And she kept looking her, and Jesus is grinning at her and just saying, “Isn’t this the coolest thing?”

Jim: (laughs).

John B: And she said, “It was the funnest thing I’ve ever done in my life.” And she later reflected, and she said, “I think Jesus did that ’cause He knew how to hook me.”

Jim: Right.

John B: He knew a 16-year-old would love that. She said, “I- I loved it.” And then He takes her into this light that she said was infinite. Infinite. And they go into this light, and this light is love, and suddenly, she finds herself at the throne of the Father. Sitting with Him. She said, “But He was huge. But he was also Jesus, but they were separate.” And then she says, “I can’t explain how God can be a man and light and love. I can’t. But that’s what I experienced.”

Jim: Yeah.

John B: And then He puts her back in her body, and Jesus leaves, but she feels a presence with her, His presence. And she said, “I later realized, that was the Holy Spirit.” And she loves and follows Jesus today as a messianic Jew.

Jim: (laughs) That is a great story.

John B: But multiple ones like that.

Jim: Yeah, I mean, that’s what, you’re- you’re filled with these stories, John.

John B: Oh.

Jim: That’s what I love. I mean, you’re beaming with evidence of God.

John B: But they’re not my stories.

Jim: I know, but you- you’re-

John B: They’re God’s-

Jim: … the journalist that’s collected ’em.

John B: I know. I am. And that’s why I get so excited, ’cause I want people to see what God is doing.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: He is showing evidence of Himself all over the globe.

Jim: John, this is so good, and there’s so much information. It’s just hard, you- to compress it in a half hour. I mean, it’s impossible.

John B: I know.

Jim: I’m thinking right here at the end, of the person who says, “Oh, that’s really good for people that had that sense as a little girl to ask God to comfort them, but I’m so bad, I’ve never gotten there. I’m not even sure if what you’re talking about is true, or if you’re all full of hooey.” You know, whatever.

John B: Yeah.

Jim: I’m talking about a person listening that might feel that distance from God. What- what would you say to them right here at the end? And for the person that is living a, you know, a everyday life for God.

John B: Yeah.

Jim: How do we encourage them to say, “Get excited?”

John B: Well, one of the things I think will excite you is, as you read the stories in this book, you’ll realize, these aren’t good Christian people.

Jim: Right.

John B: And, and I mean…

Jim: But God still loves them (laughs).

John B: He’s crazy about them.

Jim: Yes.

John B: Now, they come back, and they want to change their ways. Corina, who’s from Colombia. Um, she’d had a very, I mean, a lot of abuse in her background. And when she dies, she realizes, “Oh my gosh, this is real. There is a God. He’s real.” And she had learned the Our Father, the Fa- the Lord’s Prayer in Catholic s- you know-

Jim: Yeah.

John B: … growing up as a Catholic in Colombia. And she starts praying it, and then, but the, “Forgive me. Forgive us our sins,” she was, like, sincere. She was like-

Jim: Yeah.

John B: “… I realize, Lord.” Long story short, and many times this happens, the Lord allowed her to see where she was headed. But then He takes her into Heaven, and she experiences not only the beauty and the wonders of Heaven, but then He asks her, “Do you want to go back,” and she says yes. And right before He does, she finds herself face down before the throne of God on this, what she describes as a sea of glass. She had never read the Bible.

John: Right.

John B: She had no idea. Like, a lot of these people describe-

Jim: Right.

John B: … what they later read in the Bible. And she sees Jesus coming toward her. Uh, she can barely look up at Him. And she can also hear the Father. So they can hear distinct- they know they’re speaking to one God, but they know the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, who are also separate, are hearing the same. They’re speaking to one.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: In three. And another person said, “You know, we ask, how can that be?” It’s not even a question in Heaven.

Jim: Right.

John B: It makes-

Jim: It just is.

John B: … perfect sense.

John: Yeah.

John B: It’s another dimension of reality that we don’t have.

John: Yeah.

John B: It makes perfect sense. But the last thing, before she went back, that she heard the Father say to her. What she said, I love this. ‘Cause she said, “Can I tell others what I’ve seen?” And He said, “They’re gonna think you’re crazy.” She said, “I don’t care. Everybody’s gotta know this beauty, and the wonders, and how wonderful you are.” She said, “I- I’ll be back, Father. I’m gonna be back with many.” And He says to her, “You’re awesome.”

Jim: (laughter). That’s great.

John B: And she said, she said, “What?”

Jim: (laughs).

John B: The Father speaks like this, “You’re awesome?”

Jim: (laughs).

John B: And you start to realize, you know-

Jim: Yeah.

John B: … God created us. If we think He doesn’t get us and is not relatable, we gotta blow our box apart.

Jim: Yeah.

John B: We got Him boxed in too small.

Jim: So good. So good. John, this has been encouraging and uplifting. Your, uh, research and stories remind me of why we have so much hope as Christians. And to, our listener, Focus on the Family is here for you. If you’ve never given your life to Jesus Christ, we’d love to talk to you about this very important, the most important decision you’ll ever make. And we have many resources available for you, like our free booklet, Coming Home. You’ll learn about God’s love and grace and the steps you can take to become part of God’s family.

John: Right, and that’s online. And so many people have understood what the Christian life is all about through that booklet. And then, of course, we also have the book we talked about today with John Burke, Imagine the God of Heaven, which we suggest you get directly through us, uh, because your donations go right back into ministry and provide hope and help to families just like yours.

Jim: And if we’ve helped you today, please consider giving back to help others, especially as the Christmas season is approaching. Thousands of people reach out to Focus on the Family for help by phone, mail, and email. Couples heading for divorce, parents who are stressed, mothers considering abortion, and others who simply need your help. But we couldn’t do this without you. Uh, God will use your support today to provide biblical resources and programs to save and strengthen families just like yours. When you give a gift of any amount today to the ministry of Focus on the Family, we’ll send you a copy of Imagine the God of Heaven, as our way of saying, “Thank you for joining us in ministry.” So please partner with us. Give families hope through this Christmas season. And on behalf of those who you will help through Focus on the Family, let me say thank you.

John: And this, uh, reminder that when you donate today, your support goes twice as far, thanks to a limited-time match. Your gift will help strengthen families, and it’ll be doubled. So donate today, and request your copy of Imagine the God of Heaven, when you stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or call 800-232-6459. That’s 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Well, join us again tomorrow. We’ll hear from Kathi Lipp, offering tips on getting organized for Christmas and how you can better enjoy this season.

Preview:

Kathi Lipp: I would like us to come out of Christmas better than we entered. And so, this is what I’m saying. Often times, if we are not purposeful about what we want to do about Christmas, then we’re gonna let others dictate what it’s going to look like.

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