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Dr. Gary Champan: If you have feelings over here and ideas over here, far better to share those with each other. You know, you share your perspective, she shares her perspective, we’re on a team. And it’s not that one person always gets to do what they want to do. We share each other’s ideas, trying to listen to each other, see their perspective. Because sometimes after we really see their perspective, we can honestly say, “Well you know, honey, I think what you have in mind is the best way to go on that.”
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John Fuller: Well, that’s Dr. Gary Chapman, sharing some simple ways to make your marriage stronger and better. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on The Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: You know, John, marriage is such a gift, and I get to do life with my best friend, Jean. I mean, sometimes she doesn’t feel like a best friend. Not because of her, it’s because of me. But, we just keep moving forward and build the relationship and try to do it better and better and better.
But I don’t think any couple is secure from some kind of issue that might arise. And as you get older, you get more mature, you handle them probably with a little less intensity and those kinds of things. And that’s a great place to be. But not everybody is going to get married. I know that one of the great criticisms is we make marriage an idol, focus on the family is our mission. So we’re going to talk to typically married people and people with kids because that’s what we’re trying to do. Is strengthen marriages and help parents do the best job that they can do, all within the context of their Christian faith. Guilty as charge. We do have a singles ministry called Boundless to help on ramp you into the main Focus on the Family. But if you’re single, that’s good. God wants you to be where you’re at and to serve him where you’re at, whether married or single.
Today we’re going to talk about some really good content for the married couple, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage by Gary Chapman and John Hinckley, and it will be core marriage material.
John: Yeah, this is great stuff. And this is going to be a great tune up program for anybody regardless of your stage in marriage. You can learn more about Dr. Chapman, he’s one of our most popular guests, he’s written dozens of books. He’s pastored for over 50 years, he’s a terrific communicator, always a favorite here at the ministry. Learn more about his book, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Gary, welcome to Focus. You’re remote today because airlines couldn’t get you here. But we miss you physically, but we’re so glad you’re joining us remotely.
Gary: Well, thank you. I’m glad it worked out and looking forward to our time together.
Jim: Yeah, I mean, how long have you and your wife been married now?
Gary: 63 years.
John: Oh wow.
Jim: Oh, you’re like-
Gary: [inaudible] says, “That’s impossible, she’s only 49.”
Jim: That sounds like my mom. She was 49 for like 50 years. But no, that’s awesome. You do have a Ph.D. I was going to say, you’ve got a Ph.D. in marriage. 63, that’s a good run.
Gary: Yes, we’re very excited. I remember the early days though, Jim, when I wasn’t sure what was going to happen. We had a lot of negative feelings, and we didn’t know how to solve conflicts, and we argued a lot. Yeah, I think God let us go through those early stages because of what he wanted to do in my life.
Jim: Sure.
Gary: He gave me empathy for people. When they sit in my office and say, “We’re just too different. This is just not working.” I can identify with that. So God uses even the hard times in making us and also in using us.
Jim: Oh, especially that. But I mean the fact that you’ve gone through those cycles of marriage, like I was talking about. Once you get a certain maturity, things aren’t as tense, I think. I mean, hopefully you’re learning how to deflate and not escalate conflict, etc. I mean you should be getting A’s and Bs at this stage, not D’s and Fs. But just to get the audience involved in your early marriage, we do want to talk about your D’s and your F’s. Sorry about that.
But you mentioned that when you first got married, those expectations and the book talks about this, the expectations that you had. This is so common to every couple. You go into marriage thinking, “We’re so much in love, we’re so much alike. This is going to be wonderful.” And then at some point, six months, six days, six years into that wonderful bliss, something explodes. What typically is the cause of that marital explosion?
Gary: I think it’s because we come down off that high. I was always told when I was growing up, if you’re really in love, if you’ve got the real thing, it’s going to last forever. And that’s what I anticipated. Well, we studied it now. Average lifespan of that euphoric state is two years. Some a little longer, some a little less. The average two years. My wife and I had dated two years before we got married. I came down rather soon after the honeymoon.
Jim: Right.
Gary: And then we found out we didn’t agree on some things. And when we were in love, we never had any problems. Whatever she wanted to do was fine with me, you know. We came down off that high and then we had these conflicts. And so I knew I was right, she knew she was right. So we ended up arguing with each other. I remember one night it was pouring down rain outside and we got into an argument. And in the middle of the argument, my wife walked out the front door in the rain and I thought, “Man, this is bad. When a woman walks in the rain, it’s bad.”
Jim: No kidding. I mean, that’s-
Gary: And so then not only did we have all those arguments, not only did I lose the positive feelings. Now I had some negative feelings toward her. You know, just because she wouldn’t listen to me, and da, da, da, da, da. And so the emotions became negative instead of positive. So it was…it was a hard time for me. And what compounded it for me, Jim, is two weeks after we got married, I enrolled in seminary to study to be a pastor. And here I am studying to be a pastor and just miserable in my marriage, you know, just…
Jim: Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that because you kind of came to that conclusion, but I wanted to know the timeline. You and Carolyn were in this season of disagreement and fighting, and you kind of are coming to your wits end about, did I marry the wrong person? She may have been thinking the same thing. But then you had this turn where you were prompted, you said in the book, to start studying the teachings of Jesus for your marriage. I don’t, I don’t think I’ve ever had that kind of specific thing. Look at the words of Jesus for your marriage. So how did that happen for you, Gary? And how was it so profound?
Gary: Well, I was pretty desperate and just struggling with this whole thing. And I said to God, “There’s no way I can ever stand in front of people and preach if I’m this miserable in my marriage.” I just couldn’t conceive of doing that. And I said to God, “I don’t know what else to do. I’ve done everything I know to do, it’s not working. She won’t listen to me.” I’m still blaming her. And I just said to God, “I’m asking you. I’m asking you to help me. I don’t know what to do.”
As soon as I said that it came to my mind, a visual image of Jesus on his knees, washing the feet of his disciples. And I heard God say to me, “That’s the problem in your marriage. You do not have the attitude of Christ toward your wife.” It hit me like a ton of bricks. Because I remember what Jesus said after he did that, which was a servant’s job in his day, he washed their feet and then he stood up and said, “You call me teacher and Lord, and you were right. But in my kingdom, the leader serves. Now I’m telling you, you go do what I’ve just done for you. You go serve other people.”
And I realized, you know, that was not my attitude. My attitude was, you know, if you’ll listen to me, we can have a good marriage. And I wept. I just broke down and wept. And I said, “God, forgive me.” And then I asked God, “Please give me the attitude of Christ toward my wife.” In retrospect, it’s the greatest prayer I ever prayed about my marriage because God changed my heart and gave me that concept to serve her. And three questions made it practical once my heart was changed. When I was willing to ask these three questions, my marriage began change. Simple questions. Number one, honey, what could I do to help you? Question number two, how could I make your life easier? Question number three, how could I be a better husband? When I was willing to ask those questions, she was willing to give me answers.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: I started responding. Now, I knew nothing about love language in those days. Looking back on it, her request was telling me her love language, acts of service, you know. And I started doing these things. And it didn’t turn around overnight, but probably within three months, my wife started asking me those three questions. What can I do to help you? How can I make your life easier? How can I be a better wife? So we’ve been walking this road a long time in which I’ve been reaching out to serve her, and she’s been reaching out to serve me. And I really believe that this is God’s intention.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: God never ordained marriage to make people miserable. He made us to serve each other. And if we have the attitude of Christ, that, who said of himself, the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve. And later give his life a ransom for others. So if we get that right and we have that attitude serving each other, we’ll tell each other what they can do. And we’re doing what God intended marriage to be, a loving, supportive, caring relationship in which two are better than one. And that’s what God said in the beginning. Not good for Adam to be alone, I’m going to give him a helper. And when you get helping each other, you’re on the good road.
Jim: No, it’s so good and so true. The, uh, I have a warning though. You and I have talked about that before, those three questions. So I go home and I’m telling Jean, I’m saying, “Let me ask you three questions.” And I said them and she goes, “Oh, who’d you record with today?” And then she quickly had three answers for each question. (Laughter) I mean, it was like right top of mind, I’m going, she’s going to have to really search to answer.
John: She already knew.
Jim: She had three answers for each question ready to go. I said, “Man, how long has that been loaded, that response?” So just a fair warning to those husbands.
But Gary, in all seriousness, and I think this is true. But it didn’t just resolve overnight. It was the beginning of that journey. And I think even with maybe impatience and anger, those were things that you continue to work on. And that helps the rest of us because it’s not like it was immediate. It changed your perspective but speak to that idea of growing in those attitudes, even though you would fail from time to time. Is that accurate?
Gary: Yeah, I think always. I never speak in terms of a perfect marriage. I talk about a growing marriage.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: Because we’re either growing or we are regressing. All of us. We’re getting better in our relationship or we’re getting worse. And so yeah, the whole thing of learning how to listen to her when we disagreed, you know, rather than trying to convince her that I was right and she was wrong. Learning to say, “Honey, I want to understand what your perspective. Now, share it with me, you know. And let me try to get my arms around what you’re saying.” And try to look at the world through her eyes and begin to see her perspective on it, so that I could then say to her, “Well, honey, I can see now how that makes sense. I can see that.” And learning to listen to her and look for solutions then. We still disagree, but the question now is how can we solve this? And rather than trying to win the argument, learning how to solve the problem. And that was huge. And it took time; it took time for that process. But it’s something everybody has to learn if they’re going to have a growing marriage, is how to process our conflicts in a positive way.
John: This is Focused on the Family with Jim Daly, and we’re having a great conversation with Dr. Gary Chapman about his own marriage story. Which is captured in a book he wrote called A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage, Quick Practical Insights Every Couple Needs to Thrive. You can learn about getting a copy of the book at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast.
Well, so Gary, you’re talking about something I think a lot of us struggle with, which is those differences that never seem like they’ll ever change. That’s just in my spouse’s personality. So you’ve given us some good ways to think about that and to approach it with prayer. But practically, what do I do when, once again, either she’s not going to change, or if I look in the mirror, I’m not going to change. What do I do then?
Gary: I think there are some things we have to recognize that we will have to accept and that they will never change. For example, I’ve sometimes said this, uh you know, there are some people who are not wired to keep up with their car keys. And every time they get ready to walk out the door, they say, “Where are my keys? Where did I put my keys? Where did I put my keys?” And I say, “Listen, you can put hooks out there in the garage and tell them, honey, just hang them on the hooks.” They’re not going to do that. I don’t know if they cannot or they will not. I don’t know if it’s genetic or if it’s just a pattern. But some things we have to accept. And one of the things I had to accept was that, about my wife. And so I just say, “Guys, listen, if your wife is that way, the best thing you do is get you two or three sets of car keys, and you say, ‘Honey, use these. We’ll find the others.’ And you will. You’ll find them later maybe in the refrigerator, but you’ll find them.” (Laughter)
Jim: Well, I want to defend all the wives because I think they would say there’s this basket in the room or in the closet.
John: The junk thing. Yeah.
Jim: No, to put your dirty clothes in. And for some reason you lay them all over the room. Is there some problem with putting them in the dirty clothes hamper? Has anybody had that experience? I have piles. I got the once-worn pile because, ‘cause, that way I could wear those pants or that shirt again. Right?
John: Well, I guess so.
Jim: But once you have a few piles, your wife usually is going, can you give me the code to all this?
John: So has Jean accepted this about you?
Jim: I think … well, you know Jean’s solution was, why don’t you just do your own laundry? So I did. I do my own laundry, which it’s a good solution actually. Because I know what I need when I need it for a trip or something like that.
But some of this is lighthearted, but it can be really big friction. I think my question, to piggyback on what John was talking about, you know, we’ve done some programs where we talk about being in the marital rut. So it is … I’ll use the word, it’s kind of stupidity that we keep doing the same things and expect different outcomes. Much like your experience when the Lord laid that vision on you of you know, serving your spouse, serving your wife. So why don’t we, or why we are we slow to lean into doing something differently for Christians informed by scripture, trying the things that Jesus suggested we do? Especially in our marriage to serve one another. Why are we so slow as human beings to do those things?
Gary: You know, I think we’re creatures of habit, and we have … before we got married, we had a lot of habits about various and sundry things. And so I think that because we are creatures of habit, we tend to just stay in the rut that we grew up with. I grew up, for example, washing dishes. My mother taught me how to wash dishes you know. And when the dishwashers came along, because we didn’t have one in the early days of my life. Dishwashers came along, I learned how to load a dishwasher, so everything gets clean and nothing gets broken.
And my wife loads the dishwasher like she was playing Frisbee. Just throw it all in there. And I tried to negotiate with her. Honey, these two spoons will with peanut butter between them, they’re not going to get clean, Honey. And these glasses, the way you’ve got them in there, the glasses are going to break.
Jim: That’s admirable.
Gary: I tried … and you should try to negotiate. But there’s some things that they will not change or cannot. Again, maybe … what she said to me was, “Honey, I don’t have time to load the dishwasher while I’m cooking.”
Jim: Okay.
Gary: Okay. So I’ve got a little insight there on that. And then one day she finally said, “Honey, if it’s so important to you, why don’t you just load the dishwasher?” Just what your wife said to you about the clothes.
Jim: That’s a good tactic.
Gary: I said, “Well, Honey, I could. I could now. But you know, Honey, some nights right after dinner, I have to go back to the church for a meeting. And so on those nights I couldn’t load it.” And she said, well, I don’t mind loading it. And I’m thinking, I know you don’t, but I’ve got to unload it in the morning because I was the morning person already.
But here’s something I learned, Jim. I wrote this in another book that I wrote called, On the Second Half of Marriage, Married and Still Loving it, the Joys and Challenge of the Second Half. What we tried to do was determine what is the difference between couples who thrive in the second half and those who just survive. And one thing we found out is they have come not only to accept those things where they differed, but they’ve come to laugh about them.
Jim: That’s good.
Gary: So now if my wife does load the dishwasher and I open it in the morning, I look in there and laugh. The knife lying this way instead of like this, you know.
Jim: Oh yeah.
Gary: And the glass laying on its side. And I look in there now and just laugh.
Jim: Oh, of course. I mean, that’s part of it. You know, one of the things that people respond to us, and we welcome everyone’s response, it’s great to have dialogue from those listening or watching on YouTube. But when we talk about arguing in a marriage, some people will respond and say, you know, if you’re a Christian couple, you really shouldn’t argue. So I started to call it deep discussions or deep disappointment or whatever, just to not trigger people. But speak to that idea of couples that we’ve never argued. We’ve never had a fight, Gary. I’m sure they exist. I don’t know if that’s supernatural or if it’s just one person rolls over a lot and says, “Yeah, whatever. I don’t care.” Describe that. You’ve probably counseled couples that have said that to you, “No, we never fight.” But that’s not necessarily a mark of healthiness.
Gary: Yeah. Well, I’ll be honest with you, I’ve never had a couple in my office who said that. (Chuckles)
Jim: I guess they wouldn’t be in your office if that’s the case.
Gary: Yeah. Now, maybe outside the office, people that don’t go for counseling, they might say that. And it may be true, as you said, I don’t know. It may be true. But I don’t think it’s necessarily healthy. I think the reality is we are going to have differences. So some way we’re handling those things, and maybe it’s what you said. Maybe one of them is just kind of easygoing and well, Honey, if that’s the way you want to do it, just go ahead. It’s okay, it’s okay, it’s okay, it’s okay. And maybe that’s why they don’t have fights because one of them, you know, just lets the other person do what they want to do.
But to me, that’s not a healthy relationship. If you have feelings over here and ideas over here, far better to share those with each other. You share your perspective; she shares her perspective. We’re on a team. And it’s not that one person always gets to do what they want to do. We share each other’s ideas, try to listen to each other, see their perspective. Because sometimes after we really see their perspective, we can honestly say, “Well you know, Honey, I think what you have in mind is the best way to go on that. I really do. So that’s fine. Let’s do that.” But it wouldn’t always turn out that way. Sometimes we’re going to meet in the middle you know, and say, “Well, how about this?” It kind of helps both of us and both of us feel good doing it that way.
Jim: I think a light test of this is for the couple to say, “What do you want to have for dinner tonight?” And the spouse says, “I don’t care.” And then you say, “Okay, how about Chinese?” “I don’t want Chinese.” Now you’re on the road to conflict, this is good. Maybe you end up at a burger place or something. But I mean, that’s the kind of thing we’re talking about.
You know, Gary, I want to make sure we capture the art of the apology, as you’ve talked about it too, because you’re tipping in that direction now. It, it, you know, so often when you apologize, and I’m sure everyone listening has had this experience where you say, “Yeah, I’m sorry.” And people walk away going, “He wasn’t really sorry.” Or they feel like, “Nah, that wasn’t a genuine apology.” So how … when you really mean it, how do you apologize in a way that is convincing?
Gary: I think what we have to recognize is that not only do people have a love language, they have an apology language. I wrote a whole book on that. But our recap, but in this book that we’re talking about today, A Simple Guide to a Better Marriage, is to realize the idea you have as to what a sincere apology is like, is probably different from your spouse. We typically learn from our parents how to apologize. If our parents taught us, he pushes his little sister and the parents says, “Honey, you don’t push sister, go tell her you’re sorry.” So he says, “I sorry.” Even if he’s not. He’s 23 now, in his mind, if he does something to offend his wife, he’s going to say, “I’m sorry.” That’s all he was ever taught.
The fact is we discover … we ask thousands of people two questions. When you apologize, what do you typically say or do? When someone’s apologizing to you, what do you want to hear them say and do? And their answers fell into five categories. And so these are five ways to apologize. And if you don’t apologize in the way that’s meaningful to them, they don’t see it as sincere. And that’s what we’re trying to judge, whether they’re sincere.
So one of them just quickly, one of them is, I’m sorry, it’s expressing regret. But tell them what you’re sorry for, not just the words, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, I lost my temper and yelled at you. Or I’m sorry, whatever. Tell them what you’re sorry for. And the second one is accepting responsibility. I was wrong, should not have done that. I take full responsibility. The third one is offering to make restitution. How can I make this right? What can I do to make this right? For some people, if you don’t ask that, you’re not sincere. If you were sincere, you’d want to make it right. And then the fourth one is expressing the desire to change your behavior. It’s the biblical word, repentance. Turn away from that behavior.
I had a lady tell me just recently, she said, “Every time he apologizes, he says, ‘Honey, I’m sorry I hurt you. I didn’t mean to hurt you.’ And he does the same thing the next week, and he comes back and says the same thing.” She said, “If he were sorry, he would try to change his behavior.” She’s begging for him to express the desire; I don’t want to keep doing this.
And then the last one is actually requesting forgiveness. Will you forgive me? Or I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. And I have to be honest, that one was not on my radar. I thought you would know if I’m apologizing in any manner, I’d want to be forgiven. But some people, they’re waiting for you to ask for forgiveness. So if you want to be sincere, you can learn all five of these. You’re bound to hit it. But you and your spouse can sit down and talk, “Honey, what do you consider to be a sincere apology?” And I can guarantee you, most couples have never even talked about that topic.
Jim: No, that’s really good.
Gary: What do you consider to be a sincere apology? And you may be shocked at what you hear. But it will give you valuable information on how to apologize in a meaningful way.
Jim: No, that’s good. I’m giggling because I’m going to go home tonight and say, “Jean, I need to know how do you like me…?” “Who did you record with today?” That’ll be the next one. Gary Chapman again. So-
John: Oh my.
Jim: Gary, this has been terrific. Thank you so much. I think people get of, a taste of, you know, exactly right, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage. This isn’t the deep trauma of infidelity or deep child wounds that you’re carrying into your marriage, that you need counseling. This is great tune-up stuff and things to be mindful of, to make your marriage better. Which every Christian couple should be aiming for. Try to get out of that rut like we talked about, and, you know, let’s make it fun.
Send a gift of any amount to Focus, and we’ll give you a copy of Gary’s book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Let’s work together to strengthen and support marriages today. And if you want to do something really amazing, we have an exclusive offer for anyone who’s willing to make a monthly pledge of $30 or more. If you can do that, Jean and I do that, I know you and Dena do as well, John. But for those of you that are willing to do this for $30 or more, we’ll send you a Focus branded coffee tumbler and Gary’s great book, all to say thank you for becoming a Friend of the Family.
John: And Jim, the mug is something we use all the time in here. It really keeps the coffee warm in this cool studio. And it might be fun for you to have those in hand to enjoy the coffee as you listen or watch Focus on the Family.
Jim: This is something new we’re trying, this week only, to see if we can add more monthly givers to our support team. Monthly support helps stabilize our budget throughout the year so we can do what we do best, help families. So we invite you to join our team and become a member of the Friends of Focus on the Family today.
John: Our number is 800-the letter A and the word FAMILY, or you’ll find details at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast. And when you’re at our website, be sure to check out our free marriage assessment. Over a million people have taken this. It’s a 10 or a 15-minute investment on your part, and you’ll find out what’s working well and an area or two of improvement. It’s a great assessment that will provide you and your spouse lots of conversation. So take that assessment, the link is on the website.
Jim: Gary, again, let’s stick with it, come back and continue our discussion. Can we do that?
Gary: Surely. Happy to.
John: Well, we hope you can join us again next time. On behalf of the team, I’m John Fuller, and this has been Focused on the Family with Jim Daly.
