Part 1:
Preview:
Dr. Gary Champan: If you have feelings over here and ideas over here, far better to share those with each other. You know, you share your perspective, she shares her perspective, we’re on a team. And it’s not that one person always gets to do what they want to do. We share each other’s ideas, trying to listen to each other, see their perspective. Because sometimes after we really see their perspective, we can honestly say, “Well you know, honey, I think what you have in mind is the best way to go on that.”
End of Preview
John Fuller: Well, that’s Dr. Gary Chapman, sharing some simple ways to make your marriage stronger and better. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on The Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: You know, John, marriage is such a gift, and I get to do life with my best friend, Jean. I mean, sometimes she doesn’t feel like a best friend. Not because of her, it’s because of me. But, we just keep moving forward and build the relationship and try to do it better and better and better.
But I don’t think any couple is secure from some kind of issue that might arise. And as you get older, you get more mature, you handle them probably with a little less intensity and those kinds of things. And that’s a great place to be. But not everybody is going to get married. I know that one of the great criticisms is we make marriage an idol, focus on the family is our mission. So we’re going to talk to typically married people and people with kids because that’s what we’re trying to do. Is strengthen marriages and help parents do the best job that they can do, all within the context of their Christian faith. Guilty as charge. We do have a singles ministry called Boundless to help on ramp you into the main Focus on the Family. But if you’re single, that’s good. God wants you to be where you’re at and to serve him where you’re at, whether married or single.
Today we’re going to talk about some really good content for the married couple, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage by Gary Chapman and John Hinckley, and it will be core marriage material.
John: Yeah, this is great stuff. And this is going to be a great tune up program for anybody regardless of your stage in marriage. You can learn more about Dr. Chapman, he’s one of our most popular guests, he’s written dozens of books. He’s pastored for over 50 years, he’s a terrific communicator, always a favorite here at the ministry. Learn more about his book, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Gary, welcome to Focus. You’re remote today because airlines couldn’t get you here. But we miss you physically, but we’re so glad you’re joining us remotely.
Gary: Well, thank you. I’m glad it worked out and looking forward to our time together.
Jim: Yeah, I mean, how long have you and your wife been married now?
Gary: 63 years.
John: Oh wow.
Jim: Oh, you’re like-
Gary: [inaudible] says, “That’s impossible, she’s only 49.”
Jim: That sounds like my mom. She was 49 for like 50 years. But no, that’s awesome. You do have a Ph.D. I was going to say, you’ve got a Ph.D. in marriage. 63, that’s a good run.
Gary: Yes, we’re very excited. I remember the early days though, Jim, when I wasn’t sure what was going to happen. We had a lot of negative feelings, and we didn’t know how to solve conflicts, and we argued a lot. Yeah, I think God let us go through those early stages because of what he wanted to do in my life.
Jim: Sure.
Gary: He gave me empathy for people. When they sit in my office and say, “We’re just too different. This is just not working.” I can identify with that. So God uses even the hard times in making us and also in using us.
Jim: Oh, especially that. But I mean the fact that you’ve gone through those cycles of marriage, like I was talking about. Once you get a certain maturity, things aren’t as tense, I think. I mean, hopefully you’re learning how to deflate and not escalate conflict, etc. I mean you should be getting A’s and Bs at this stage, not D’s and Fs. But just to get the audience involved in your early marriage, we do want to talk about your D’s and your F’s. Sorry about that.
But you mentioned that when you first got married, those expectations and the book talks about this, the expectations that you had. This is so common to every couple. You go into marriage thinking, “We’re so much in love, we’re so much alike. This is going to be wonderful.” And then at some point, six months, six days, six years into that wonderful bliss, something explodes. What typically is the cause of that marital explosion?
Gary: I think it’s because we come down off that high. I was always told when I was growing up, if you’re really in love, if you’ve got the real thing, it’s going to last forever. And that’s what I anticipated. Well, we studied it now. Average lifespan of that euphoric state is two years. Some a little longer, some a little less. The average two years. My wife and I had dated two years before we got married. I came down rather soon after the honeymoon.
Jim: Right.
Gary: And then we found out we didn’t agree on some things. And when we were in love, we never had any problems. Whatever she wanted to do was fine with me, you know. We came down off that high and then we had these conflicts. And so I knew I was right, she knew she was right. So we ended up arguing with each other. I remember one night it was pouring down rain outside and we got into an argument. And in the middle of the argument, my wife walked out the front door in the rain and I thought, “Man, this is bad. When a woman walks in the rain, it’s bad.”
Jim: No kidding. I mean, that’s-
Gary: And so then not only did we have all those arguments, not only did I lose the positive feelings. Now I had some negative feelings toward her. You know, just because she wouldn’t listen to me, and da, da, da, da, da. And so the emotions became negative instead of positive. So it was…it was a hard time for me. And what compounded it for me, Jim, is two weeks after we got married, I enrolled in seminary to study to be a pastor. And here I am studying to be a pastor and just miserable in my marriage, you know, just…
Jim: Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that because you kind of came to that conclusion, but I wanted to know the timeline. You and Carolyn were in this season of disagreement and fighting, and you kind of are coming to your wits end about, did I marry the wrong person? She may have been thinking the same thing. But then you had this turn where you were prompted, you said in the book, to start studying the teachings of Jesus for your marriage. I don’t, I don’t think I’ve ever had that kind of specific thing. Look at the words of Jesus for your marriage. So how did that happen for you, Gary? And how was it so profound?
Gary: Well, I was pretty desperate and just struggling with this whole thing. And I said to God, “There’s no way I can ever stand in front of people and preach if I’m this miserable in my marriage.” I just couldn’t conceive of doing that. And I said to God, “I don’t know what else to do. I’ve done everything I know to do, it’s not working. She won’t listen to me.” I’m still blaming her. And I just said to God, “I’m asking you. I’m asking you to help me. I don’t know what to do.”
As soon as I said that it came to my mind, a visual image of Jesus on his knees, washing the feet of his disciples. And I heard God say to me, “That’s the problem in your marriage. You do not have the attitude of Christ toward your wife.” It hit me like a ton of bricks. Because I remember what Jesus said after he did that, which was a servant’s job in his day, he washed their feet and then he stood up and said, “You call me teacher and Lord, and you were right. But in my kingdom, the leader serves. Now I’m telling you, you go do what I’ve just done for you. You go serve other people.”
And I realized, you know, that was not my attitude. My attitude was, you know, if you’ll listen to me, we can have a good marriage. And I wept. I just broke down and wept. And I said, “God, forgive me.” And then I asked God, “Please give me the attitude of Christ toward my wife.” In retrospect, it’s the greatest prayer I ever prayed about my marriage because God changed my heart and gave me that concept to serve her. And three questions made it practical once my heart was changed. When I was willing to ask these three questions, my marriage began change. Simple questions. Number one, honey, what could I do to help you? Question number two, how could I make your life easier? Question number three, how could I be a better husband? When I was willing to ask those questions, she was willing to give me answers.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: I started responding. Now, I knew nothing about love language in those days. Looking back on it, her request was telling me her love language, acts of service, you know. And I started doing these things. And it didn’t turn around overnight, but probably within three months, my wife started asking me those three questions. What can I do to help you? How can I make your life easier? How can I be a better wife? So we’ve been walking this road a long time in which I’ve been reaching out to serve her, and she’s been reaching out to serve me. And I really believe that this is God’s intention.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: God never ordained marriage to make people miserable. He made us to serve each other. And if we have the attitude of Christ, that, who said of himself, the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve. And later give his life a ransom for others. So if we get that right and we have that attitude serving each other, we’ll tell each other what they can do. And we’re doing what God intended marriage to be, a loving, supportive, caring relationship in which two are better than one. And that’s what God said in the beginning. Not good for Adam to be alone, I’m going to give him a helper. And when you get helping each other, you’re on the good road.
Jim: No, it’s so good and so true. The, uh, I have a warning though. You and I have talked about that before, those three questions. So I go home and I’m telling Jean, I’m saying, “Let me ask you three questions.” And I said them and she goes, “Oh, who’d you record with today?” And then she quickly had three answers for each question. (Laughter) I mean, it was like right top of mind, I’m going, she’s going to have to really search to answer.
John: She already knew.
Jim: She had three answers for each question ready to go. I said, “Man, how long has that been loaded, that response?” So just a fair warning to those husbands.
But Gary, in all seriousness, and I think this is true. But it didn’t just resolve overnight. It was the beginning of that journey. And I think even with maybe impatience and anger, those were things that you continue to work on. And that helps the rest of us because it’s not like it was immediate. It changed your perspective but speak to that idea of growing in those attitudes, even though you would fail from time to time. Is that accurate?
Gary: Yeah, I think always. I never speak in terms of a perfect marriage. I talk about a growing marriage.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: Because we’re either growing or we are regressing. All of us. We’re getting better in our relationship or we’re getting worse. And so yeah, the whole thing of learning how to listen to her when we disagreed, you know, rather than trying to convince her that I was right and she was wrong. Learning to say, “Honey, I want to understand what your perspective. Now, share it with me, you know. And let me try to get my arms around what you’re saying.” And try to look at the world through her eyes and begin to see her perspective on it, so that I could then say to her, “Well, honey, I can see now how that makes sense. I can see that.” And learning to listen to her and look for solutions then. We still disagree, but the question now is how can we solve this? And rather than trying to win the argument, learning how to solve the problem. And that was huge. And it took time; it took time for that process. But it’s something everybody has to learn if they’re going to have a growing marriage, is how to process our conflicts in a positive way.
John: This is Focused on the Family with Jim Daly, and we’re having a great conversation with Dr. Gary Chapman about his own marriage story. Which is captured in a book he wrote called A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage, Quick Practical Insights Every Couple Needs to Thrive. You can learn about getting a copy of the book at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast.
Well, so Gary, you’re talking about something I think a lot of us struggle with, which is those differences that never seem like they’ll ever change. That’s just in my spouse’s personality. So you’ve given us some good ways to think about that and to approach it with prayer. But practically, what do I do when, once again, either she’s not going to change, or if I look in the mirror, I’m not going to change. What do I do then?
Gary: I think there are some things we have to recognize that we will have to accept and that they will never change. For example, I’ve sometimes said this, uh you know, there are some people who are not wired to keep up with their car keys. And every time they get ready to walk out the door, they say, “Where are my keys? Where did I put my keys? Where did I put my keys?” And I say, “Listen, you can put hooks out there in the garage and tell them, honey, just hang them on the hooks.” They’re not going to do that. I don’t know if they cannot or they will not. I don’t know if it’s genetic or if it’s just a pattern. But some things we have to accept. And one of the things I had to accept was that, about my wife. And so I just say, “Guys, listen, if your wife is that way, the best thing you do is get you two or three sets of car keys, and you say, ‘Honey, use these. We’ll find the others.’ And you will. You’ll find them later maybe in the refrigerator, but you’ll find them.” (Laughter)
Jim: Well, I want to defend all the wives because I think they would say there’s this basket in the room or in the closet.
John: The junk thing. Yeah.
Jim: No, to put your dirty clothes in. And for some reason you lay them all over the room. Is there some problem with putting them in the dirty clothes hamper? Has anybody had that experience? I have piles. I got the once-worn pile because, ‘cause, that way I could wear those pants or that shirt again. Right?
John: Well, I guess so.
Jim: But once you have a few piles, your wife usually is going, can you give me the code to all this?
John: So has Jean accepted this about you?
Jim: I think … well, you know Jean’s solution was, why don’t you just do your own laundry? So I did. I do my own laundry, which it’s a good solution actually. Because I know what I need when I need it for a trip or something like that.
But some of this is lighthearted, but it can be really big friction. I think my question, to piggyback on what John was talking about, you know, we’ve done some programs where we talk about being in the marital rut. So it is … I’ll use the word, it’s kind of stupidity that we keep doing the same things and expect different outcomes. Much like your experience when the Lord laid that vision on you of you know, serving your spouse, serving your wife. So why don’t we, or why we are we slow to lean into doing something differently for Christians informed by scripture, trying the things that Jesus suggested we do? Especially in our marriage to serve one another. Why are we so slow as human beings to do those things?
Gary: You know, I think we’re creatures of habit, and we have … before we got married, we had a lot of habits about various and sundry things. And so I think that because we are creatures of habit, we tend to just stay in the rut that we grew up with. I grew up, for example, washing dishes. My mother taught me how to wash dishes you know. And when the dishwashers came along, because we didn’t have one in the early days of my life. Dishwashers came along, I learned how to load a dishwasher, so everything gets clean and nothing gets broken.
And my wife loads the dishwasher like she was playing Frisbee. Just throw it all in there. And I tried to negotiate with her. Honey, these two spoons will with peanut butter between them, they’re not going to get clean, Honey. And these glasses, the way you’ve got them in there, the glasses are going to break.
Jim: That’s admirable.
Gary: I tried … and you should try to negotiate. But there’s some things that they will not change or cannot. Again, maybe … what she said to me was, “Honey, I don’t have time to load the dishwasher while I’m cooking.”
Jim: Okay.
Gary: Okay. So I’ve got a little insight there on that. And then one day she finally said, “Honey, if it’s so important to you, why don’t you just load the dishwasher?” Just what your wife said to you about the clothes.
Jim: That’s a good tactic.
Gary: I said, “Well, Honey, I could. I could now. But you know, Honey, some nights right after dinner, I have to go back to the church for a meeting. And so on those nights I couldn’t load it.” And she said, well, I don’t mind loading it. And I’m thinking, I know you don’t, but I’ve got to unload it in the morning because I was the morning person already.
But here’s something I learned, Jim. I wrote this in another book that I wrote called, On the Second Half of Marriage, Married and Still Loving it, the Joys and Challenge of the Second Half. What we tried to do was determine what is the difference between couples who thrive in the second half and those who just survive. And one thing we found out is they have come not only to accept those things where they differed, but they’ve come to laugh about them.
Jim: That’s good.
Gary: So now if my wife does load the dishwasher and I open it in the morning, I look in there and laugh. The knife lying this way instead of like this, you know.
Jim: Oh yeah.
Gary: And the glass laying on its side. And I look in there now and just laugh.
Jim: Oh, of course. I mean, that’s part of it. You know, one of the things that people respond to us, and we welcome everyone’s response, it’s great to have dialogue from those listening or watching on YouTube. But when we talk about arguing in a marriage, some people will respond and say, you know, if you’re a Christian couple, you really shouldn’t argue. So I started to call it deep discussions or deep disappointment or whatever, just to not trigger people. But speak to that idea of couples that we’ve never argued. We’ve never had a fight, Gary. I’m sure they exist. I don’t know if that’s supernatural or if it’s just one person rolls over a lot and says, “Yeah, whatever. I don’t care.” Describe that. You’ve probably counseled couples that have said that to you, “No, we never fight.” But that’s not necessarily a mark of healthiness.
Gary: Yeah. Well, I’ll be honest with you, I’ve never had a couple in my office who said that. (Chuckles)
Jim: I guess they wouldn’t be in your office if that’s the case.
Gary: Yeah. Now, maybe outside the office, people that don’t go for counseling, they might say that. And it may be true, as you said, I don’t know. It may be true. But I don’t think it’s necessarily healthy. I think the reality is we are going to have differences. So some way we’re handling those things, and maybe it’s what you said. Maybe one of them is just kind of easygoing and well, Honey, if that’s the way you want to do it, just go ahead. It’s okay, it’s okay, it’s okay, it’s okay. And maybe that’s why they don’t have fights because one of them, you know, just lets the other person do what they want to do.
But to me, that’s not a healthy relationship. If you have feelings over here and ideas over here, far better to share those with each other. You share your perspective; she shares her perspective. We’re on a team. And it’s not that one person always gets to do what they want to do. We share each other’s ideas, try to listen to each other, see their perspective. Because sometimes after we really see their perspective, we can honestly say, “Well you know, Honey, I think what you have in mind is the best way to go on that. I really do. So that’s fine. Let’s do that.” But it wouldn’t always turn out that way. Sometimes we’re going to meet in the middle you know, and say, “Well, how about this?” It kind of helps both of us and both of us feel good doing it that way.
Jim: I think a light test of this is for the couple to say, “What do you want to have for dinner tonight?” And the spouse says, “I don’t care.” And then you say, “Okay, how about Chinese?” “I don’t want Chinese.” Now you’re on the road to conflict, this is good. Maybe you end up at a burger place or something. But I mean, that’s the kind of thing we’re talking about.
You know, Gary, I want to make sure we capture the art of the apology, as you’ve talked about it too, because you’re tipping in that direction now. It, it, you know, so often when you apologize, and I’m sure everyone listening has had this experience where you say, “Yeah, I’m sorry.” And people walk away going, “He wasn’t really sorry.” Or they feel like, “Nah, that wasn’t a genuine apology.” So how … when you really mean it, how do you apologize in a way that is convincing?
Gary: I think what we have to recognize is that not only do people have a love language, they have an apology language. I wrote a whole book on that. But our recap, but in this book that we’re talking about today, A Simple Guide to a Better Marriage, is to realize the idea you have as to what a sincere apology is like, is probably different from your spouse. We typically learn from our parents how to apologize. If our parents taught us, he pushes his little sister and the parents says, “Honey, you don’t push sister, go tell her you’re sorry.” So he says, “I sorry.” Even if he’s not. He’s 23 now, in his mind, if he does something to offend his wife, he’s going to say, “I’m sorry.” That’s all he was ever taught.
The fact is we discover … we ask thousands of people two questions. When you apologize, what do you typically say or do? When someone’s apologizing to you, what do you want to hear them say and do? And their answers fell into five categories. And so these are five ways to apologize. And if you don’t apologize in the way that’s meaningful to them, they don’t see it as sincere. And that’s what we’re trying to judge, whether they’re sincere.
So one of them just quickly, one of them is, I’m sorry, it’s expressing regret. But tell them what you’re sorry for, not just the words, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, I lost my temper and yelled at you. Or I’m sorry, whatever. Tell them what you’re sorry for. And the second one is accepting responsibility. I was wrong, should not have done that. I take full responsibility. The third one is offering to make restitution. How can I make this right? What can I do to make this right? For some people, if you don’t ask that, you’re not sincere. If you were sincere, you’d want to make it right. And then the fourth one is expressing the desire to change your behavior. It’s the biblical word, repentance. Turn away from that behavior.
I had a lady tell me just recently, she said, “Every time he apologizes, he says, ‘Honey, I’m sorry I hurt you. I didn’t mean to hurt you.’ And he does the same thing the next week, and he comes back and says the same thing.” She said, “If he were sorry, he would try to change his behavior.” She’s begging for him to express the desire; I don’t want to keep doing this.
And then the last one is actually requesting forgiveness. Will you forgive me? Or I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. And I have to be honest, that one was not on my radar. I thought you would know if I’m apologizing in any manner, I’d want to be forgiven. But some people, they’re waiting for you to ask for forgiveness. So if you want to be sincere, you can learn all five of these. You’re bound to hit it. But you and your spouse can sit down and talk, “Honey, what do you consider to be a sincere apology?” And I can guarantee you, most couples have never even talked about that topic.
Jim: No, that’s really good.
Gary: What do you consider to be a sincere apology? And you may be shocked at what you hear. But it will give you valuable information on how to apologize in a meaningful way.
Jim: No, that’s good. I’m giggling because I’m going to go home tonight and say, “Jean, I need to know how do you like me…?” “Who did you record with today?” That’ll be the next one. Gary Chapman again. So-
John: Oh my.
Jim: Gary, this has been terrific. Thank you so much. I think people get of, a taste of, you know, exactly right, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage. This isn’t the deep trauma of infidelity or deep child wounds that you’re carrying into your marriage, that you need counseling. This is great tune-up stuff and things to be mindful of, to make your marriage better. Which every Christian couple should be aiming for. Try to get out of that rut like we talked about, and, you know, let’s make it fun.
Send a gift of any amount to Focus, and we’ll give you a copy of Gary’s book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Let’s work together to strengthen and support marriages today. And if you want to do something really amazing, we have an exclusive offer for anyone who’s willing to make a monthly pledge of $30 or more. If you can do that, Jean and I do that, I know you and Dena do as well, John. But for those of you that are willing to do this for $30 or more, we’ll send you a Focus branded coffee tumbler and Gary’s great book, all to say thank you for becoming a Friend of the Family.
John: And Jim, the mug is something we use all the time in here. It really keeps the coffee warm in this cool studio. And it might be fun for you to have those in hand to enjoy the coffee as you listen or watch Focus on the Family.
Jim: This is something new we’re trying, this week only, to see if we can add more monthly givers to our support team. Monthly support helps stabilize our budget throughout the year so we can do what we do best, help families. So we invite you to join our team and become a member of the Friends of Focus on the Family today.
John: Our number is 800-the letter A and the word FAMILY, or you’ll find details at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast. And when you’re at our website, be sure to check out our free marriage assessment. Over a million people have taken this. It’s a 10 or a 15-minute investment on your part, and you’ll find out what’s working well and an area or two of improvement. It’s a great assessment that will provide you and your spouse lots of conversation. So take that assessment, the link is on the website.
Jim: Gary, again, let’s stick with it, come back and continue our discussion. Can we do that?
Gary: Surely. Happy to.
John: Well, we hope you can join us again next time. On behalf of the team, I’m John Fuller, and this has been Focused on the Family with Jim Daly.
*****
Part 2:
Preview:
Dr. Gary Chapman: When I was willing to ask these three questions, my marriage began to change. Simple questions. Number one, Honey, what could I do to help you? Question number two, how could I make your life easier? Question number three, how could I be a better husband? When I was willing to ask those questions, she was willing to gimme answers.
End of Preview
John Fuller: Dr. Gary Chapman is back with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, offering some practical ways that you can improve your marriage relationship. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, the last time we had a great conversation on basic stuff. You know, how we treat one another in marriage, and I don’t know if you were convicted. I was. (Laughs).
John: (Laughs). Yes.
Jim: I was sitting there going, I should know this stuff.
John: Take note.
Jim: But you know, whether it’s, uh, how you do the dishes, which we talked about, or how you throw your laundry on the floor, which is a problem I’ve suffered from for a long time, you know. But, uh, just good stuff on how to serve those that we’re employed by. It’s uh, and you know, we do that with friends. We do that in our vocation. We wanna do well at work and we serve those that we’re employed by, let’s say. But man, applying that in your marriage should be job one.
John: Yeah.
Jim: And, uh, Gary Chapman, our guest, brought that to a fine point and it was something he experienced. If you missed the conversation last time, go to the website. You can download it there. You can get the app for your smartphone and listen to the entire library at Focus on the Family.
John: Right.
Jim: And, uh, I’m looking forward to talking with Gary again today.
John: Mm-hmm. And he is, of course, a bestselling author, well known for his love languages books. And, uh, he’s written a variety of others as well. And today we’re talking about the title, A Simple Guide For a Better Marriage: Quick Practical Insights Every Couple Needs to Thrive. And Jim, I was tracking with you. There’s so much good stuff here.
Jim: (Laughs). It is.
John: So much applicable information and, uh, we’d like to encourage you to get a copy of the book from us here at the Ministry. Stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to get yours.
Jim: Gary, welcome back. It was a fun discussion last time. Thank you for that.
Gary: Well, thank you. I’m glad to be back with you.
Jim: You do deliver great content, especially in this area of marriage. Let’s pick it up there. Um, I think we have a very contract-based culture. Um, you know, we just learn to do that. Keep your receipts and take something back and, you know, you did then, if, then if you do this, then I will behave this way. And then we take that right into marriage, you know, kind of that contract orientation rather than what God is expecting in that covenant relationship. Most of us, as Christians, may not even know the distinction. Talk about contract versus covenant.
Gary: Yeah. I think, uh, our culture is a contract culture. And there’s nothing wrong with contracts. You know, you can drive this car if you pay the monthly bill, you know.
Jim: Right.
Gary: Nothing wrong with contracts. We make them in our culture all the time. Uh, but I think when we take marriage in that, with that attitude, uh, and many people do, you know, I’m in this for you to make me happy. You make me happy I’m here. Many of the divorces that take place in our country is because a person gets to the place where they feel like, you’re not meeting my needs. You’re not making me happy. You’re not loving me, then I’m out of here. It’s a contract. I’m here for you to make me happy. I’m here for you to meet my needs. If you don’t meet my needs, then I’m gone. The Bible is not a contract mentality. It is a covenant relationship. First of all, a covenant is always made for the benefit of the other person. God made a covenant with Noah that saved his whole family.
God made a covenant with Abraham, he promised. It’s a decision we make for the benefit of the other person. Now, I admit most people do not enter marriage when they’re think… standing there at the altar. I’m in this thing to make you happy and meet your needs and give myself to serve you the rest of my life. (Laughs). Even though we use that language, in sickness and in health. That’s the language of covenant. So long as we both shall live, that’s the language of covenant. So the covenant’s made for the benefit of the other person. And it’s lived out. I’m in this relationship to enrich your life. Whatever I can do to help you become the person that God wants you to become; that’s what I want to do. And if we both have that idea of the covenant relationship and the covenants are made for a lifetime, they’re not made, I’m with you and I’m into this… You see the whole framework today in American culture where many people are living together before they get married, the concept is, I’m gonna try this out. (Laughs).
Jim: Right.
Gary: And most of them don’t get married because in trying it out, they, they have the normal things they would have if they were married, but now they just bail out because I’m not gonna stay here and be unhappy in this relationship. So they bail out and go from one person to another person. They’re never gonna find ultimate fulfillment in a marriage. The divorce rate in second marriages is higher than first marriages. Obviously, the answer is not running and finding somebody else. The answer is learning. And so when we have the covenant concept that we are committed to each other for better or for worse, and if it gets worse, we gonna make it better. With, with God’s help, we’re gonna turn it in a positive direction. And that’s why reading books like this, going to marriage conferences, getting counseling, all those things are there, available to help us turn it in the right direction.
Jim: And Gary, you, you have counseled probably tens of thousands of couples, uh, during your career. And in that respect, I think it’s baffling to a degree. I get it. But especially couples that it’s just a wearing down over time that, you know, I’ve just fallen outta love. I just don’t feel like we have that magic anymore. However you want to describe it. I’m tired of picking up your messes or whatever, kind of that slow erosion, not the big infidelity issue. Those exist as well. But I’m talking about that couple that it just grinds to a point where you’re going, I, I don’t think we have it anymore.
I, I think it’s right to talk to that marriage right now. Somebody listening, I’m sure there’s gonna be one or many couples that are in that spot. And to your point, I remember reading a University of Chicago study, and I’m not sure how they did this, but they took two cohorts, two groups, all of them having marital difficulty, but they convinced one group of 300 or so to go for counseling, continue to fight for their marriage. (And that was part of the agreement in the research.) So they did. And the other group they encouraged to go through with the divorce, I mean, think of that.
John: Mm.
Jim: So, you know, just give up. And so they watched these 300 couples on this side and 300 couples on that side. Five years later, they followed up with them. 85% of the couples that stuck with it were glad they did. Were happier than they were five years ago, but were so, uh, positive about the fact that they stayed together. Ironically, the same number, 85% that divorced felt they had made a mistake not fighting for their marriage.
So that really gets down to about 15% on that side that probably were gonna get divorced no matter what. But isn’t that interesting that 85% of those that divorce said they should have fought for their first marriage, and they brought the same garbage into their second marriage and third and fourth. And it just isn’t the answer to find somebody new.
Gary: Yeah. You’re exactly right. I’ve had many people in my office who had been divorced and remarried and were having struggles in their, in their second marriage. But I’ve had them not normally in the presence of the other person, but often when there was just the two of us say, you know, if I had read your book on the love languages, I probably would still be married to my first spouse.
Jim: Right.
Gary: You know, they’re looking back and realizing what they’re learning some things now that they wish they had learned earlier in the relationship. So I, I think, yeah. And what I, what I try to emphasize is this, I, I’m empathetic with people who are in marriages that are struggling. I mean, I’m certainly empathetic because I’ve been there. But here’s the thing. We typically start in the wrong place. If you want to have a better marriage, where do we start? Most of us by nature start by trying to get our spouse to change some things.
Jim: That would be so easy.
Gary: I know.
Jim: (Laughs).
John: [inaudible] (laughs).
Gary: If they would just change this. If they would just change this. They would just change this. Jesus had a different idea. He said, first, get the plank out of your own eye and then you can see more clearly to help your spouse get the speck out of their eye.
Jim: Mm.
Gary: Yes. It would be nice if your spouse would change some things, but the place to start is not trying to get them to change. The place to start, I think as a Christian, you would say to God, Lord, you know what I’m married to, and you know where we are in this marriage. And you, I, you know, don’t have positive feelings for ’em. And you know, if they would just change some things, I would think things would be better. But right now I want to ask you, where am I failing in this marriage? It’s a prayer God will answer. It’s a biblical prayer. David prayed that prayer. And so if we start where God told us to start and ask God to show us where we’re failing, and they can be little things or big things, write them down and then confess them to God and accept his forgiveness because Christ has paid for those things, then go to your spouse and say, I’ve been thinking about us.
In fact, the other night I actually asked God to show me where I have been failing you. I know I’ve been on your case a lot, but I asked God to show me where I’ve been failing. And he gave me a pretty good list. And if you’re open to it, I would like to share these with you and ask if you could forgive me for these things. Well, when I’ve shared that idea with couples, first of all, they’re asking, well, if I do that, you think they’ll come back in three weeks and confess their sins?
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: (Laughs). And I say, I don’t know. I don’t even know that they will forgive you. But I’ll tell you this, they’ll walk away thinking, wow, I can’t believe this. For three years they’ve been telling me how bad I am. They actually came and asked me to forgive them for stuff. God can use your behavior to touch their hearts. I can’t guarantee you that they will all turn around, but I’m telling you, that’s where Jesus said to start. You know, I had one lady say to me, she said, Dr. Chapman, I hear what you’re saying. She said, but what if your husband really is the problem? (Laughs).
Jim: (Laughs). I guess that’s a fair question.
Gary: And I said to her, well, okay, let’s assume he’s 95% of the problem. That would only leave 5% for you. I said, you wouldn’t say you’re perfect. No, no, no. She said, no one’s perfect. You know, I said, okay, you’re just 5%. Ask God to show you your 5%.
John: Mm.
Gary: You can’t make him apologize, but no one can keep you from apologizing. You know, you deal with God, then, then go confess to him and God can use it. So it’s a first step. It’s not everything, but it’s a first step.
Jim: Yeah. I would imagine you’ve observed this, but I, I, I think a person that asks the three-week question, I mean, it’s almost again like that if then kind of comment, right? If I do apologize, then when will they apologize to me?
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It’s probably a non-starter. ‘Cause you already know that’s, that’s showing you their hand. It’s tipping their hand to say, what I’m really after is for them to apologize to me and I will feign the apology. I mean, they’re not gonna even know that that’s their motivation. But you hear it as a counselor on the other side of the desk, don’t you?
Gary: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jim: And what do you say to that person when you, when you call ’em out?
Gary: We cannot manipulate another person. What we wanna do is love them. And they say, well, I don’t have any, I don’t, I, I don’t love them. I understand you don’t have any love feelings. In the Bible love doesn’t start with a feeling. It starts with a way of thinking, an attitude. Then I said, God loves your spouse and you’re married to them. You’re in the best place of anyone on earth to communicate God’s love to them. Romans chapter five and verse five, the love of God is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. So you just say to God, I don’t have any love feelings for them, but I know you love them. So I’m opening my heart. You pour your love into me and I’ll, I’ll love them. And then if you know their love language, that whole concept, start expressing love in their love language, you’ve apologized to them now start to loving them.
And I’m telling you, if they don’t turn around in six months, you can look God in the face. You can look yourself in the mirror and know you’ve done the most powerful thing you could do to try to stimulate growth in your marriage. Then you can apply tough love. Then you can say, Honey, I don’t know how you feel, but I feel like the last six months I have really been loving you. And it appears to me you really don’t care about me or our marriage. And so I have decided that I’m gonna move in with my mother for a while. I’m not leaving you; I’m not divorcing you, but I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna move out because I don’t think I’m helping you by loving you in all the way I’ve done. But if you want to and go with me for counseling, I’m open for counseling.
Or if they have a real severe problem, if you’re willing to deal with that and you get counseling for that, then I’ll go with you for counseling. You know, the problem, Jim, is people apply tough love before they ever do tender love. And so if you just, you just go in one day and say, okay, I’m just, I’m sick and tired and da-da-da-da-da, and I’m out of here. They’re thinking, good riddance. I’m tired of all you yelling at me and screaming at me anyway. But if you could do an apology and then you try tender love for several months, we can’t make them change, but we can influence them.
Jim: Right.
Gary: And that’s the most powerful influence you can have.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s so true.
John: Yeah. Uh, great insights today from Dr. Gary Chapman on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. He’s touching on some of the concepts in his book, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage: Quick Practical Insights Every Couple Needs to Thrive. Get a copy of the book from us here at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast and let me just remind you about an exclusive offer. And today is the last day that we can do this. Uh, we’re inviting people to make a monthly pledge of $30 or more. And when you sign up and, uh, join the Friends of Focus on the Family team, we’re gonna say thanks by sending a Focus on the Family, uh, with Jim Daly travel mug. It’s a metal tumbler. It’s great. It’s what we use here in the studio. And we also have a small bag of Jim’s special blend coffee. It’s a fun way for us to say thank you for supporting the ministry on a monthly basis. And you can stop by the website for the details.
Jim: Gary, let me ask you this, steadfast love; the term steadfast seems to repeat itself in scripture as well. We could all conjure up what that might mean, especially if you played sports. You know, that’s the goal line stance. You know, they’re not gonna score and I’m gonna be steadfast. Um, that’s kind of an athletic application. But what is the scripture mean by steadfast love?
Gary: I think it means that we love the other person regardless of what they do, the way God loves us, no matter what we do. Now, because He loves us, He lets us suffer the consequences when we do wrong.
John: Mm.
Gary: And because He loves us, He will discipline us because we’re his children. His discipline comes out of His love. So if we have children, we discipline them because we love them. So steadfast love means that whether they’re doing what we fit, thinks they ought to be doing, or whether they’re doing something we think they shouldn’t be doing, we still love them. I often apply this not only in marriage but also like to adult children who are making decisions that break the heart of their parents.
And I’m facing a lot of that in these days, uh, from, from parents who just saying, Dr. Chapman, we just found out this, or this, or this about our adult child and, and it’s just breaking our hearts. And what are we going to do? What did we do wrong? And, and first of all, I say don’t assume that you did something wrong because adults are free to make their decisions. God gives us freedom. We have to give the freedom to our adult children that God gives us. So if they’re making wrong decisions, you can’t make them do right.
But you can say, I want you to know though, even though my heart is broken with the lifestyle you’re living, that I want you to know I love you. I will always love you. And I will always be here for you. And I hope we can have a relationship together because I love you in spite of the decisions you’re making.
John: Mm.
Gary: Again, you give them that freedom. But you’re doing exactly what the prodigal son’s father did. You know, he didn’t try to make him come back. He kept the farm going so that when he came back, there’s a place to come back to. You keep your marriage going, and then you give that adult child a chance to come back. And if they come back, you stand with open arms.
John: Mm-hmm.
Gary: Yeah. That’s good.
John: Mm.
Gary: Uh, Gary, you described counseling a woman in the book. I think she had been married 15 years. Now this is gonna connect with everybody and I tested this with Jean this morning. Um, a woman particularly who feels like I’ve been married 15 years and I feel like totally disconnected from my husband. We don’t talk about meaningful things. Anybody heard this before?
John: (Laughs).
Gary: (Laughs).
Jim: And you make a recommendation there that I, again, I mentioned it to Jean early this morning, reading the book, reading the prep for the program, about applying your senses to this. Like something you’ve seen, something you’ve heard, something you’ve tasted. Jean just lit up with that. She thought that was brilliant by the way. And this idea that you apply your senses to these things as a husband, I’m just, I am caricaturing here a bit, and then the shoe could be on the other foot.
Gary: Sure.
Jim: But you know, so that it’s not news, weather and sports, which is where guys typically like to hang out. But you apply that, describe how you would apply that and how you helped this woman and her husband, it sounds like, feel better connected to each other.
Gary: You know, I think there are a lot of couples that just aren’t talking much at all, you know, and they’re just each living their own life and they’re cordial. It’s just that there’s, there’s no exchange. They don’t know what the other person’s thinking, feeling or whatever. So again, having some kind of plan can be extremely helpful. One plan, for example, would be to say, why don’t we each share with the other three things that happened in our lives today and how we feel about them. They can be positive things or negative things. They can be little things or big things. They can be, Honey, one of the thing I did is I stopped, uh, by, on the way home and put gas in the car.
Jim: (Laughs).
Gary: And she said, well, how’d you feel about that? He said, to be h-honest, I felt angry. I looked at the price and I felt angry. You know. It is, is just sharing life. It’s… well, but we’ve got an organized way to do it. And then you mentioned that, you know, another one is, thinking in terms of Honey, tell me something that you tasted today that, or yesterday or that… last week. What’s the best thing you’ve tasted today? Who’s ever asked that question? You know?
Jim: Yeah. Ice cream.
Gary: Or, yeah. Yeah. Or what did you, what, what did you see today that really encouraged you? You know. Or what did you see today that really, uh, made you sad? Or what did you hear today that encouraged you? Somebody said something that encouraged you. Or what do you remember today that you said that might encourage somebody else? Just again, thinking of the five senses, you know?
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: Or did anybody give you a pat on the back today? Anybody touch you with a high five today? Again, we don’t think in terms of talking about those kind of things, but it’s a easy way to talk with each other about things that, that you wouldn’t normally do. Th- those two ideas can help couples who are just kind of in a, a pattern, you know?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Gary: Of the same old thing every day. Every day.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: And they’re, they’re not really talking with each other about much of, much of anything.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: It’s a easy way to, to break out of that habit.
John: Mm.
Jim: Hey, speak to the importance of a healthy balance between our work and our marriage. I mean, that can be so tough for both husbands and wives now because for the most part, we’re two-income families for a lot of people. But how then in that busyness, how much more so you need to prioritize time like this and open communication and dialogue ’cause everything’s pulling at you in every direction.
Gary: I think that’s a challenge that almost all couples face in our culture today, is how do we balance work and family? And I don’t think there’s a magic wand to be waived. There’s no one answer for every couple that works, because our work schedules are so different and all that sort of thing. But I do think we have to ask ourselves the question, what is the quality of our marriage? And what is the quality of my interacting with my children as opposed to my, the time I spend at work.
John: Mm-hmm.
Gary: And some of us will likely make some huge changes if we understood what really is happening.
John: Mm-hmm.
Gary: I, I was at a funeral not long ago, and the father had died, and I had never met his son. He was a 25-year-old son. And after the funeral, I was just talking to him and I said, how’d you and your father get along? And he said, I never knew my father.
John: Hmm.
Gary: I said, what do you mean? He said he had a job that he left on Monday morning, and he came home on Friday night. And then all-day Saturday he played golf with his buddies. And then Sunday morning he slept till noon. And then he watched, uh, football and so forth on Sunday afternoon. He said he never came to any of my games. He never talked to me about anything much at all. He said, I just, I just never knew him. And I, I, tears came to my eyes when I walked away and I thought if that father had known how that son was gonna feel through all those years, he may have made some pretty radical changes in order to spend more time with his son. You know? So, uh, I, I just think we have to constantly evaluate our work style, our work pattern, and our family, because if we don’t make time for our family and our marriage, we will regret it.
Jim: Yeah.
Gary: Down the road.
Jim: I, so I agree so wholeheartedly, you know, regrets are not good. And you think about that with parenting, you know, we always talk about the do-over, but man, try to do it the first time in such a way that you don’t have those regrets. B e ahead of the curve. Gary, right at the end here, uh, I want to ask you this, a story that you had in the book about visiting two different homes, one meager, the other lavish, and what did the Lord speak to your heart about those two different homes?
Gary: Yeah. Well, I was visiting both on the same night, you know, visitation from our church. And as you said, one was very, very meager. You know, just a house, very meager and all. But the couple were so, uh, i-into each other and shared their life with me and shared with each other. And it was just obvious to me. They just, they had a great relationship.
And the other home was just unbelievably lavish, you know. But in my contact with them and talking with them, it was obvious to me they weren’t very connected.
John: Mm.
Gary: They weren’t very into each other. They didn’t have much of a quality of a marriage. And when I walked out of there, I just said to myself and to God, I said, God, if ever I have to choose between one of those, please gimme the log cabin.
Jim: Wow.
Gary: And I think most couples, if they think about it, would rather choose a small little house or whatever, and a, and a meaningful close marriage than to have a lavish place to live and a lot of possessions, but not have a close relationship in their marriage. It’s just that, you know, Jesus said it, life does not consist in the abundance of what we possess. Life’s meaning is found in relationships, not in things. So where we live doesn’t necessarily determine the quality of our marriage. Any couple can have a growing marriage.
Jim: Hmm.
Gary: I don’t care whether you have little or whether you have much. We can have a growing marriage if we take steps to learn how to pleasure each other, how to serve each other, how to help each other bend our lives in a meaningful way in service to others in the name of Christ.
Jim: Well Gary, that’s a great call and a great way to end today. Your book, A Simple Guide for a Better Marriage: Quick Practical Insights Every Couple Needs to Thrive. I mean, that’s right up our alley here at Focus on The Family. We’re trying to do that. And we’re so grateful how you pour into Focus on the Family and allow us to, you know, spread the content that the Lord’s given you through radio programs and podcasts. You are always willing and desirous for us to, to work with you in that way. And that’s, that’s so good because uh, you have so many great things to say that the Lord has given you. So thank you once again for being with us and, uh, sharing the good news about healthy marriage and the benefits. Thanks for being with us.
Gary: Well, thank you. I always enjoy being with you and thanks for all that you’re doing at Focus on the Family.
Jim: And if you’re in that spot, you have an okay marriage, but wanna make it better; get a copy of Gary’s book, send a gift of any amount to the ministry, and we’ll get it right out to you. It’s a win-win opportunity. We’ll get a great resource and together we’ll do more ministry to help families. Before we close today, we have something a little unusual going on this week, and today’s the last day. We’re looking for more monthly sustainers, people who are willing to donate every month to help us build stronger marriages and provide practical tools for parents and equip Christians of all ages to grow in their faith.
I think that’s a good goal. And today, like I said, is the last day for this exclusive offer. If you commit to a monthly pledge of $30 or more, we’ll send you Gary’s great book along with a Focus branded coffee tumbler, and a small packet of the coffee we drink every day in the studio that John helped to procure. Uh, and trust me, it’s really good.
John: It really is. We call it Jim’s Blend.
Jim: It should be John’s Blend.
John: And we send it off with every guest. And, uh, this is just a fun way for us to say thank you for partnering with us in ministry. Uh, join us and help thousands of married couples, uh, that we help every year.
Jim: That’s right. Our research shows we’ve helped more than 530,000. That’s right. You heard that right. 530,000 couples have better, healthier relationships with each other, and that’s just in the last 12 months. So I’m excited about that. And, uh, if you want to be involved with us in that way, become one of the Friends of Focus on the Family. And again, that’s for a pledge of $30 a month.
John: Call today. Our number is 800, the Letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. And we’ve got details at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time, as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
