Day One
Woman #1: The biggest things I do to be close to my spouse would be making sure that my attachment with Christ is solid, that I’m spending time with Him regularly so that it can overflow into my marriage.
Man #1: We never keep secrets from each other.
Woman #2: We have a date night every Friday.
Woman #3: I think in order for us to stay close is make sure that we are in prayer with each other and that we are doing a devotion every single day to share where we really are in life.
Man #2: Now that school is back in session, my wife and I like to get together for lunch every day as a way to stay connected.
Woman #4: I really take him serious and listen to what he has to say, to hear his words instead of waiting to interject what I wanna say.
John Fuller: What do you think? Those, uh, sound like some great ideas for improving or enhancing your relationship with your spouse. Uh, today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we’ll explore some ideas like that to help you keep your marriage strong and healthy for a lifetime. Thanks for joining us today, I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, over the years, you and I have, uh, gotten a lot of advice from all kinds of experts about how husbands and wives can have a happier, healthier marriage. Uh, Jean might say I’m not always applying-
John: (laughs)
Jim: … it but that’s okay.
John: I do wonder sometime-
Jim: (laughs)
John: … why does it take so long to get there?
Jim: People don’t know the burden that we have.
John: (laughs)
Jim: Our wives expect us to-
John: Yes.
Jim: … have a lot of knowledge on how to do it right.
John: Oh my-
Jim: But, uh, I’m always looking for that golden nugget in these programs, and I do take ’em home and talk with Jean about them. And those are great ideas that, uh, do stand out and can be used even by so-called, so-called experts.
John: Experts. Yes.
Jim: Uh, one of those nuggets, and I don’t even remember who said it was about how some couples don’t need elaborate grand gestures to keep their relationship strong. Uh, things like fancy romantic dinners or a wonderful weekend getaway, which all sounds good. Uh, maybe buying expensive gifts for each other. But in reality, good marriages are built on the little things, the simple ways that husbands and wives show their love each and every day. And again, it’s not complicated or necessarily expensive. All you need to do is speak kindly to one another, listen to one another, spend time together doing things that you enjoy together. It’s just easy everyday ideas like that.
John: Yeah. And what I love about this ministry is we can be kind of a drip irrigation for people who want to keep their marriages in a good place. And, uh, Jim, you’ve compiled some great ideas, simple practical ideas for couples in a new book. It’s published by Focus on the Family, and the title is The Healthy Marriage Devotional: 365 Inspirations to Bring You Closer Together. And what we’d like to share now is a panel conversation we recorded about this devotional, uh, featuring you, Jim, along with Jean and, uh, our colleagues, Dr. Greg and Erin Smalley who lead the marriage effort here at Focus on the Family. Uh, Jim, here’s how you started the conversation on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: One key theme that we wanna address is the importance of nurturing your marriage. I think that’s the probably the number one thing. Would everybody agree here?
Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah.
Jim: Nurturing your relationship-
Jean Daly: Absolutely.
Erin Smalley: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … with your marriage. And, Greg, I understand your dad, Gary. Uh, first of all, he stole all your material-
Greg: Right.
Jim: … is what you told me.
Greg: Right.
Erin: (laughs)
Jim: All the good books that he wrote, multi-million- (laughs)
Greg: They were my ideas. Even at 10, I had some good wisdom-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: … around marriage.
Erin: (laughs)
Jim: Yeah, that’s plagiarism. We should have been able to tell Gary that.
Greg: (laughs)
Jim: But, but you said he, uh, would officiate weddings from time to time. I’m sure it was a privilege for married couples to get married by Gary Smalley.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: But he had a packet of seeds he would carry in his-
Greg: All the time.
Jim: … pocket for that. But what, what was that story like?
Greg: Yeah. I even watched him do this and thought, “What a great idea.” So the very first time I ever officiated a wedding, I’m like, “I’m gonna do what Dad did. I’m gonna have the seed packets.”
Erin: (laughs)
Greg: The idea is to I held up the bride’s bouquet to everyone. Beautiful bouquet and said, “Look how mature flowers are. Look at the colors. Like, this is the marriage that these two are dreaming about.” But I said, “Guys, today again, I learned this from watching my dad. Today, you’re starting off as seeds. So how do you go from these seeds to nurturing your marriage so that it looks like these gorgeous mature flowers?” And I was just gonna give a few points, connect them to some element of growing, you know, flowers. Like I said, you know, Christ has to be the cornerstone of your marriage.
Jim: That’s good.
Greg: That’s like sunlight-
Erin: (laughs)
Greg: … to these flowers. And I talked about something else and I said, “That’s like water to these flowers.” And then I was gonna make this last point, which is 10 minutes of day of this inner life, deeper emotional communication. And I could not, for the life of me remember-
Jean: (laughs).
Greg: … what element of growing flowers.
Jean: Oh.
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: Oh, oh, oh.
Greg: So I’m just like the Statue of Liberty-
Jim: (laughs)
Greg: … just holding these flowers going, “Well, the flowers need stuff.” Like, and I couldn’t come up with it. And so I just went, finally, something popped into my brain.
Jim: (laughs)
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: I just went with it. I didn’t think about it. I just wanted out of this stupid analogy.
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: I’m like, “Thanks a lot, Dad.”
Jim: It’s a good analogy.
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: And so I said, “Yeah, this 10 minutes a day, this deep conversation, that’s like fertilizer.”
Jim: (laughs)
Greg: So I said to them, “You two need to (laughs) spend at least 10 minutes a day fertilizing each other.”
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: And I didn’t hear what that might have insinuated.
Jim: Yeah, exactly.
Jean: Oh.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: What would you think-
Greg: Yeah, so I think I’d-
Erin: I did. I got it. Yeah.
Jean: Roar of laughter.
Jim: … is more fertilizing the relationship.
Greg: Right.
Erin: (laughs) Yes.
Jean: Yes.
Jim: I’ve-
Greg: Be nurturing and doing… It’s, it’s-
Erin: Growing it.
Greg: Well, in Ephesians 5:29, it says, “to cherish and nourish.” The word nourish in, in the Greek actually means to tend to like you would a garden. So it’s just saying we’ve gotta grow not only each other but, but our marriage as well. It’s our vows that we take to having to hold. To hold means to nurture, to grow. And so-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: … i- it’s like you were saying we’ve gotta keep thinking about how we do that then throughout-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: … the course-
Jim: No, it’s so good.
Greg: … of our marriage.
Jim: All right. This is gonna be a little different ’cause you’re gonna turn the tables on Jean and I and you’re gonna-
Erin: Yay.
Jim: … ask us questions too. We’re gonna ask you questions-
Greg: Absolutely.
Jim: … all around this devotional, this marriage devotional. But go ahead.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Fire away.
Greg: Well, the first one-
Erin: (laughs)
Greg: … is something that Erin and I have never heard applied to marriage.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: (laughs) Okay.
Greg: And so when we read it- (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
Greg: … we went, “Wow, this, it- it’s actually is quite brilliant.” So you talk about the second law of thermodynamics, which is about entropy, deterioration-
Jim: Exactly. Right.
Greg: … over time.
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: And, and that really does apply to marriage. So help us to better understand-
Jim: Now, you know the-
Greg: … how does that law apply?
Jim: … there’s so many things that apply to that really. Uh, Dr. Dobson used to use that about managing Focus on the Family, this idea of entropy. You know, if you don’t put energy into it, things decline.
Greg: That’s right.
Erin: Hmm.
Jim: And that’s certainly true of our marriage. I mean, if we don’t put the effort into it, it’s not-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … gonna magically happen.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: We’re not gonna get a bouquet of flowers without-
Greg: (laughs)
Jim: … tilling-
Erin: (laughs)
Jim: … planting, fertilizing.
Erin: Fertilizer.
Greg: (laughs)
Erin: (laughs)
Jim: So it’s the same kind of concept, just keeping the energy in there. And I think a lot of marriages struggle and we’ve struggled from time to time with that where we’re busy and we’re not putting in the effort.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And it just kind of coasts, right? And you use that analogy too-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … in terms of the drift. That’s part of-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … you know, the exceptional marriage content that you guys have talked about, that idea of drifting.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: It’s just a different way of applying it. Of course, I’m married to a scientist, so-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … I have to-
Erin: Ah.
Jim: … come up with these scientific things.
Greg: It was brilliant.
Jean: (laughs)
Erin: Yes, brilliant.
Greg: Jean, well done.
Jim: I think we’re experiencing, uh, the breakdown of the second rule of thermodynamics. And Jean goes-
Erin: (laughs)
Jim: … “I know exactly what you mean by that.”
Erin: (laughs)
Greg: (laughs)
Erin: That’s it.
Greg: Yeah. I was like, “Well, there must be a first and a third.
Jim: (laughs).
Greg: I dunno what any of them are. Yeah.
Jim: Do not ask me what those are.
Greg: (laughs)
Jim: But I like the second one. It keeps me motivated.
Greg: Yeah. Well, we see a lot of couples that we, that we talk to work with, they end up administrating their marriage almost to death.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Like instead of nurturing, right?
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: They’re just, they’re having like a perpetual business meeting.
Erin: Yeah. And no one gets married to have a perpetual business meeting.
Jean: No.
Erin: Or the other thing I hear is we’ll worry about our marriage later. We’ve, we’re so busy with everyday things and kids and on and on, and I always say, “There’s no autopilot. We have to pay attention to this marriage and nurture it and grow it and be intentional about that.”
Jim: Yeah. No, that’s good. And, uh, what do you think, Jean?
Jean: No, I, I agree. Life happens, especially when you have young children-
Greg: Yes.
Jean: … in the home.
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: I, you really don’t have enough hours in the day and you are both exhausted and at night or trying to get up a little early to talk. But what we’re talking about is it doesn’t take that much-
Greg: Right.
Jean: … time.
Erin: Right.
Jean: And you’re right to even start with good morning.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah.
Jean: That, that-
Jim: Just investing in little ways.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: That takes three seconds-
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: … before launching into-
Greg: (laughs)
Jean: … the-
Erin: (laughs).
Jean: … to-do list.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: Or even spending five minutes or-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … or the 10 minutes is really helpful. But for someone like me, you know, at, at that time, that busy time of life-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … that’s too overwhelming to do that every day.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: And then I feel guilt and shame.
Greg: Right.
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: But just try twice a week.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: Start with twice a week.
Jim: Yeah.
Jean: Some connection time.
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: That isn’t going through the to-do list or what-
Jim: Budget.
Jean: Yes.
Jim: Yeah. That’s good.
Jean: There, the kids or the-
Jim: You’ve done that really well. I think, um, later in our marriage particularly, um, we’ve made more time for those conversations and things, which is great.
Jean: Well, but it gets easier. (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) With time. That’s true.
Jean: As, as the kids-
Erin: I hope so.
Jean: … get older-
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: … and-
Erin: (laughs)
Greg: That’s true. That’s true.
Jean: … there is more space and time.
Greg: We’ve seen the enemy of marriage and they’re little. That’s-
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: (laughs).
Greg: … that is the bottom line.
Jim: That is true. Hey, we did a survey. You guys participated in that obviously about couples who had been married for several decades and they talked about the secrets of a happy marriage.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: So what do you think some of those were? You probably have the… You looked at the homework already-
Greg: (laughs)
Jean: (laughs)
Jim: … but what did you see in that survey?
Greg: Yeah. Well, just off the top of my mind-
Erin: (laughs)
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: … you know, I, I, w- when I looked at the list, I think what, what really stands out to me is just the, the importance of having fun together and kind of cultivating that friendship. I was-
Erin: I knew that one would stand out-
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: … to you because that’s his love language for sure.
Greg: Well, I always tell, yeah-
Jim: Having fun.
Erin: Having fun or practical jokes.
Jim: Okay.
Jean: (laughs)
Jim: I didn’t know that was one of the five.
Erin: Yeah.
Greg: Just having-
Erin: No, it’s not. Notice.
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: … just enjoying each other.
Erin: Yeah. Yeah.
Greg: I always tell Erin, like, I know that she loves me, like, she made that commitment. I like it better when she says that she likes me over loving me-
Jim: Oh, that’s good.
Erin: Hmm.
Greg: … be- because that implies to me that, that we have a, a connection in a, in a deep friendship.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And, and that’s when I think about marriage, especially for, you know, we’ve been married 32 years, so when I think about 40 and 50 and 60, 70, maybe even 80, maybe-
Erin: Oh, oh, well-
Greg: It’s possible.
Jean: Maybe.
Greg: But-
Jim: That’s what you want to end with.
Erin: (laughs)
Greg: … just to enjoy each other is I want her to be my best friend.
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: And that, that requires that we nurture that relationship.
Jim: (laughs).
Greg: But that’s-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … the one that really stood out for me.
Erin: Yeah. Versus communication, of course, was on the list.
Jim: Right.
Erin: That seems to always make the list. But it’s not just communicating about, like, we were talking ear- about earlier, business stuff or conflict happens spontaneously or just small talk, facts but really being intentional again about going under the waterline and going to that heart connection, the deeper emotional connection. And we have to be intentional about that. It doesn’t happen spontaneously.
Jim: Yeah, that’s good.
Greg: Erin keeps a feeling’s wheel at our dinner table.
Jean: Oh, I have one-
Greg: (laughs)
Erin: (laughs)
Jean: … in a drawer next to our-
Greg: In a drawer.
Jean: … dinner table.
Jim: Yes.
Jean: Yes.
Jim: It came out with the foster kids. I think-
Jean: Yes.
Jim: … we did that-
Erin: Good.
Jim: … originally with the-
Jean: Yes.
Erin: Good.
Jim: … foster kids.
Erin: There’s something valuable.
Jean: Yes.
Greg: It comes out-
Jim: But quickly it turned on me.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: Right. (laughs)
Erin: Wait, I’m gonna bring the pillow home from my-
Greg: Oh my goodness.
Erin: … from my office and keep that right-
Greg: So she’ll say like-
Erin: … at the table.
Greg: … give me three feeling words.
Erin: Uh-huh.
Jim: That’s good.
Greg: So I’ll look at the list. Sexy is one-
Jim: (laughs)
Greg: … of the things on the list.
Erin: (laughs)
Greg: So I go there first.
Jim: You sit down to dinner, she goes, “Are we having a happy face dinner-
Greg: (laughs).
Jim: … tonight?”
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: Yes. It’s happy face.
Erin: Yes.
Jim: That’s funny. Some of the others don’t hold grudges. I mean, I guess we’re kind of gravitating toward the ones (laughs) that mean something to us. But don’t hold grudges-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … is a good one. I think, I think we have done that reasonably well. Probably better in the second half of our marriage than the first half.
Jean: Absolutely. And, you know, I think a lot of it is, it’s a, you can choose to think positively about your spouse.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: And that’s brain science.
Jim: Is that a hard choice?
Jean: We- (laughs).
Jim: (laughs)
Greg: (laughs)
Jean: … well-
Jim: No, I wouldn’t-
Jean: … in general, I’m speaking for others.
Jim: Okay. Yes.
Jean: It can be-
Jim: We have friends.
Erin: … for Greg and Erin.
Jean: It can’t. (laughs) Right.
Erin: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: For the listener, the watcher. There, those seasons in life-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … where it’s busy and you’re stressed and you’re-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … tired and, and you don’t have much bandwidth, relational bandwidth. But there is a lot of research to support if you can only find one thing positive-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … to think about your spouse-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … think about that.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: Thank God for that aspect of your spouse. And it’s an upward spiral.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mmm. Mmm-hmm.
Jean: If you think more positively about your spouse, you’re going to begin feeling more positive.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: You’re speaking from conviction. I’m a little worried.
Jean: Um… (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
Erin: Read this.
Jean: Yes.
Greg: It’s the third law of thermodynamics.
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: I read about this-
Jim: Notice the positives.
Jean: … somewhere.
Jim: No, that’s fun.
Jean: But it, but it helps.
Jim: That’s good. The other, uh, couple that I’ll just quickly mention, we’ll move on, is your love will change. Kind of that acknowledgement. For me, that’s like expectations.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Uh-huh.
Jim: I- I’m kinda tough on that. I mean, I tend to have expectations and then they get dashed and then I get sour.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: I get into a mood.
Greg: Yeah. Yeah.
Jean: (laughs)
Jim: And, you know, because what I thought would happen isn’t happening.
Greg: Right.
Jim: How, whatever. And I- I’ve tried to become more mature in that way. (laughs)
Jean: (laughs)
Erin: Yes.
Jim: But, uh, just kind of take the deep breath and say, “Okay, maybe I need to work on me, not on Jean-
Erin: (laughs).
Jim: … and that’s a good place to go. And the other one, support your spouse-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … which I think is really important. Uh, I think when you feel supported, you’re a much better spouse.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Right?
Erin: For sure.
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: All right, well, o- on that one, what was really interesting is I just, I was reading Ephesians 5:25 through 27-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … which it starts off to husbands, you know, love your wife as Christ loved the church. So it’s that obvious, okay, the sacrifice for her. But then there’s a- there’s, it goes on to talk about helping to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing of the water, presenting her as a radiant church without stain or wrinkle. Like when I first saw those words, I’ve never connected with them. Like, I’ve just run by that.
Jim: Yeah.
Jean: Right.
Greg: But when you, but when I really, I started to study it the other day and what was really cool, it, it’s exactly that it’s about supporting. It’s, it’s encouraging-
Erin: Mmm.
Greg: … husbands is Christ presented the church, His bride holy and blameless, without stain, all of that. What he was saying is that that he’s investing in her to help her become the best self. Like who God created her, like lifting her up so that she can ultimately be unleashed because that’s-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … what Christ ultimately did with the church.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: The great commission, you know, go out and make disciples. And, and that’s what I love about that thought of, of supporting Erin is going. I- I think, Jim, it’s, it’s at the end of our life as a husband, it’s almost we have to be able to ask ourselves, was Jean, was Erin better off because they married us?
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Ooh, that’s a tough-
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Right?
Jim: I mean, that’s a tough question, a good question.
Jean: Right.
Greg: And it’s fair though. How am I supporting her to help her become that the best who God created her to be so that God can unleash her-
Erin: Mmm.
Greg: … versus, you know, doing things, saying things that-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: … keep her so-
Jim: Good.
Greg: … buried under all this negativity.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What’s good about that, it gives you a compass.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: I think especially for guys, it’s not aimless that-
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … you know what you’re trying to go for-
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … at the end of your life.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You wanna be able to-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … answer that positively.
Greg: I just never saw that-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: … out of the verse.
Jim: It’s good.
Greg: It’s like those words didn’t make-
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … sense for me.
Jim: It’s right there, huh?
Greg: That’s what it’s saying.
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: Okay.
Jean: Okay. Well, it’s only fair that I-
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: … that I get to ask you, Erin-
Erin: Okay.
Jean: … about how you and Greg learned to deal with unmet expectations in your marriage.
Erin: Mmm.
Jean: We all have them-
Erin: Yes.
Jean: … but we don’t necessarily tell our spouse. So how have you guys worked through-
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: … your different expectations?
Erin: We’ve had lots of them-
Greg: Right.
Erin: … because we-
Greg: Great practice opportunities.
Erin: … we all come into marriage based on what we experienced growing up from our family of origin with those expectations. It’s gonna go like that. But often we don’t talk about it. We don’t communicate about it. So then they’re unrealistic expectations. I even think about, I don’t think you, you thought of this, but, um, mowing the lawn. So I expected ’cause my dad mowed the lawn, I thought Greg would mow the lawn.
Jean: Right.
Erin: And it was this battle that I would, I would end up doing it ’cause he is like, “I don’t care about the lawn.” So I would-
Jean: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
Erin: … mow the lawn but I would be so upset, like just pushing the mower. And finally we hired someone to mow the lawn. And that was, that was our, our win-win.
Jim: Well, that’s good.
Greg: Yeah. I don’t… Whatever the re-
Jim: (laughs)
Greg: I had bad allergies, so just mowing-
Erin: Right.
Greg: … a lawn I, I just suffer-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: … after doing that. It, the- there’s all those. I remember one time Erin was out with some girlfriends and, and so I was with the kids and it was just one of those times nothing went right. And (laughs) I finally get ’em down and I’m at the kitchen table doing some work, and Erin walks in and she walks right by our, our kitchen sink. And I can see her and, and I notice that she looks at the sink. I’m like, “Ah.” Because had she looked at the other direction, she would’ve seen all the laundry that I folded.
Jean: Oh, yes.
Greg: But she notices-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … the dishes I forgot to do.
Jean: Yeah.
Greg: And so she yells out, “What am I, the maid?”
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: … and just starts doing the dishes. And it so offended me that I’m sitting, I was working. And so I’m, I, I just remember thinking I, the nerve. Like she, you- you- you’ve been out partying with your friend.
Jean: (laughs) Right. I’ve been home working hard.
Greg: Wha- why would you not even say hello? Like, had you had asked me, you know, “Hello, how’s your night?” I would’ve said how horrible your children are and what they did.
Erin: (laughs)
Greg: And, and, and it was the expectation that I had-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … that when she comes back, especially if, (laughs) if a, a fun night with the gals that she’ll greet me first. Not like notice what-
Jean: Right.
Greg: … didn’t get done.
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: And now thankfully I didn’t say anything. And, and-
Jim: Oh, you’re smart.
Greg: … I kind of calmed down. I, I even said later on, “Hey, did you mean like the homemade thing towards me?” She’s like, “No, I knew that you had some work to do. I told our kids, ‘You’ve gotta do the dishes.’ They didn’t. I was frustrated-”
Erin: Yeah.
Greg: … with them.” Thank the Lord ’cause I would’ve probably said some snarky thing.
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: We would’ve been in some big fights.
Jean: Right.
Erin: Yes.
Jean: Right.
Greg: And so it, it, it is just being aware of what, what are those expectations. And then letting Erin know, you know, for me the expectation is when you come home that we greet each other first-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … not just jump into businessy-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … kind of stuff. And then she gets to decide, is that realistic or not?
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: And, and we can navigate through that-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … and figure out something that feels good to both of us, but it’s most of us don’t even know it’s those expectations that are unspoken-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … that, that, that drive even a lot of our conflict-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Right.
Greg: … can happen from that.
Jean: Yeah.
Greg: So, so next time when you walk into the office, Jim, I expect you to at least hug me and before you yell at me-
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: … for something that I didn’t do right.
Jim: I’m gonna be all over you.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs)
Greg: Well, I, I-
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: … I love that you guys are so honest within the book and tell a lot of your stories. So I know that you guys approach life very differently and-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: … in the book, you given a good example (laughs) of, of how this has showed up many times-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: … within your marriage.
Jim: Yeah, you know-
Greg: So what happened?
Jim: … one thing, Kenny Chapman, who’s on the cover with us-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … uh, you know, Kenny does a great job. He writes the scripts for our 92nd commentary.
Greg: Right.
Erin: Huh.
Jim: So a lot of these things came from that 92nd commentary that Kenny has heard my stories and we’ve talked about many things. I think we’ve done over a thousand-
Erin: Wow.
Jim: … of those commentaries.
Erin: That’s impressive.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: So Kenny really gets the credit for compiling these things and, and he does such a good job. I wanna make sure he gets that recognition.
Greg: Thank you, Kenny.
Jim: But one of the stories that I talked about, it’s kind of, you know, it’s one of the more challenging stories. We’ve had fun talking about the lighthearted stuff, but Jean and her family had a tragedy. Their brother passed away many years ago. But I can remember, you know, my thing has always been, as an orphan kid, let’s go, we gotta go, we gotta pick up ourselves and go.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: We can’t sit here.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And I would say upon reflection of that, you know, partly due to my uncomfortableness with that, I don’t like to sit there.
Greg: Hmm.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, it doesn’t make sense to me to be in a-
Greg: Like, is it just the emotions or just-
Jim: I- i-
Greg: … dwelling on the negative?
Jim: I, I think it’s my emotional challenge, to be honest with you, to why sit there and think about something terrible.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I, I’m not, I’m not a good mourner.
Greg: Gotcha.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: If I could say it that-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … way, I want to go.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And that probably is not healthy. I get it. But it’s just the mechanism that I developed as a child-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … losing my mom-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … losing my dad, and-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … so the story goes.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And I remember after a few weeks, I’m even thinking of the timing of this. How, how do I, ’cause she was in a not a good place.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: You know, she was just-
Erin: Understandably. Yeah.
Jim: … mourning the loss of her brother.
Greg: Yeah, lot of grief. Yeah.
Jim: And at some point I was like, okay, I remember being in the kitchen, I know exactly where we were standing, and I said, “You know, we, we gotta pick up now. We gotta get moving.”
Greg: Time to move on.
Jim: “It’s time to go.”
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: And I, I, you know, I, I think it was weeks, not months, certainly not years. I mean, so the timing may have been way too early for me to be talking-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … about this. But I did raise that question. And probably the most, the scariest thing I ever heard from Jean in our marriage was the words that she spoke back to me, which is-
Greg: Uh-huh.
Jim: … “You know what, Jim, not everybody’s wired like you. I can’t do that.”
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “I’ve gotta sit here-”
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “… and mourn this-”
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: “… for a while.”
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: And the scary part was I don’t know that I can do that. Not that I was thinking of leaving.
Greg: Right.
Jim: It wasn’t that kind of thing-
Greg: Right.
Jim: … but I don’t, I’m not equipped to sit here with you.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I, I’ve gotta go.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And i- i- I had to really think about how to, how to do that.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: So it was a, it was great learning, but it was also, you know, pretty good failure on making sure I was everything she needed.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So, I don’t know if you want to fill in any gaps, but…
Jean: You know, in the end it ended up really growing us. And that was-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … I had a, that was, uh, my first brother who took his life-
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … and it was devastating-
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: … for me.
Erin: Yeah, of course.
Greg: On every level. Yeah.
Jean: But because of all of this, I got into Christian therapy-
Greg: Mmm.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … and started going and, and that really helped me with not only mourn but understand myself better. And then she wanted, the therapist wanted Jim to come in and join. So, uh, we ended up doing really marriage counseling and-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … she helped walk us through that. And that was so helpful just for me individually-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … for Jim individually, for us as a couple.
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Erin: Mmm.
Greg: That’s what’s so powerful, I think there was a similar epiphany within our marriage as well as that when Erin would get emotional, I would always tell her, “Hey, you know what? You, you gotta calm down here. You, you need to relax.”
Erin: (laughs) Those are the-
Jean: That’s effective.
Greg: Which is such a-
Erin: Yes. Right. Those are the words not to ever-
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: … say.
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: And, and, (laughs) and as that would lead them to other-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … discussions, very-
Jean: (laughs).
Greg: … spirited discussions, but what I started realizing was the same thing that you talked about, I was wanting her to relax and calm down because I was uncomfortable with the emotions.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: I didn’t know what to do with mine-
Jim: Where to go.
Greg: … or with hers.
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: And, and it was the same thing. I had to then learn, yeah, what does, what does just compassion-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … look like? Like, how can I show up and not feel like I need to solve-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: … how you felt?
Jean: Yeah.
Erin: And so often we think we need to know these things or we come into marriage knowing these things versus we can learn and grow continuously and, you know, how to manage conflict well, how to communicate well, how to sit in someone’s pain with them, we can learn how to do-
Jean: Yes.
Erin: … that and grow.
John: Well, some tender moments in the studio. And of course a lot of laughter. Anytime you have Greg and Erin Smalley in the studio-
Jim: (laughs) That’s true.
John: … and, uh, Jim and Jean Daly, uh, the four of them talking about marriage and about how to keep your marriage strong. And, uh, this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller. Today we’ve been listening to a conversation, reviewing some of the content in a book Jim is compiled, it’s called The Healthy Marriage Devotional: 365 Daily Inspirations to Bring You Closer Together. And I hope you’re interested in getting a copy of this devotional. It’s a really excellent resource. We have it here at the ministry. Just call 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY for details or you can stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to learn more.
Jim: And really the rationale for doing this is for us as a team here at Focus on the Family to do everything we can do, including compiling this devotional for married couples to do together. Jean and I are about halfway through this. Even though we compiled it-
John: (laughs)
Jim: … you know, it was good for us to, to do it. So we’re reading every morning as we have a cup of coffee together. We’ll do one or two of these devotionals. They’re very pithy and they get great points across and kind of open up conversation between you and your spouse.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And, uh, one of our guiding principles is around marriage. The sacredness of that covenant that was designed by God and for us to model His love, uh, to each other and to build stronger and healthier marriages and therefore communities as we build up the family. That is the goal. And now for the last several weeks, we’ve been talking about giving families hope, uh, especially here at the end of the year when life can get busy and stressful. And, you know, this is the highest time for depression and even, uh, anxiety and just all those things. And we want to make sure that we are doing what we can do to help you in that regard. It’s why we’re inviting you to be part of the solution, uh, partnering with us here at Focus on the Family to strengthen and support families and give these couples that are struggling the practical tools they need to keep their marriages strong and healthy. Uh, your generous gift, uh, makes all that possible. And thanks to some wonderful friends. We do this every year. Uh, we have a matching opportunity right now that will double any gift that you send. So $50 becomes a hundred, et cetera. It’s just their way, a fun way to spur on giving for the ministry so we can do more together.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, make that investment today, contribute to the work, the ministry of Focus on the Family. And, uh, we’ll say thank you by sending a copy of Jim’s devotional book, which could be a great Christmas gift for your spouse or another couple you know. Donate and request that book when you call 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or we can contribute and double your gift and get Jim’s book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And on behalf of the team, thank you for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we continue this conversation about growing closer in marriage and help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two
Jean Daly: If you can only find one thing positive to think about your spouse, think about that. Thank God for that aspect of your spouse, and it’s an upward spiral. If you think more positively about your spouse, you’re going to begin feeling more positively.
Jim Daly: You’re speaking from conviction. I’m a little worried. (laughter)
Dr. Greg Smalley: It’s the third law of thermodynamics.
Jean: I’ve read this.
Erin Smalley: Yeah. Yes.
Jean: I’ve read about this-
Greg: Notice the positive.
Jean: … somewhere.
Jim: No, that’s fun.
Jean: But it, but it helps.
Jim: Yeah, it’s good.
John Fuller: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and, uh, that was a moment from a conversation we featured last time on the show. Our panel consisted of Jim and Jean Daly, and they were joined by our colleagues, Dr. Greg and Erin Smalley, who head up the marriage team here at Focus on the Family.
Jim: Well, it’s obvious we were having a great time in the studio, and it’s always fun to have to Jean join me.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I always feel blessed when she’s here with me. And of course, having Greg and Erin in, uh, they’re walking in the door every day trying to do all we can do to help marriages, so they’re on top of things and they’re strategically thinking every day how to help you and so many more, uh, married couples. There were some serious moments mixed in there. I think we were very vulnerable, which I appreciate.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I’ve always said, we need to show that vulnerability. We are not perfect people, and we don’t wanna project that. Uh, we were discussing some simple, easy ways that couples can improve their relationship. Things like nurturing your marriage and letting it grow into everything that God intended your marriage to be. And we’re still working on that, that’s the confession. We also talked about working through unmet expectations and how men and women tend to think and act very differently from each other. (laughs) You know, it’s so true, and we said it in the program, you know, your, first you say, “We should get married, we’re so much alike.” And then you go, “Wow, how are we so different?”
John: (laughs) Yes.
Jim: And it’s all solid, practical advice that we just, uh, uh, sometimes need to be reminded of, but it, uh, helps to know where to go and have a plan. And if you missed the conversation last time, get the download or watch the previous episode on YouTube, or better yet, get our Focus on the Family app and you have access to the entire library of the Focus program.
John: Yeah. We have so much to offer, and as was mentioned last time, uh, much of what you’re about to hear was published by Focus on the Family in a book that Jim has compiled called The Healthy Marriage Devotional: 365 Daily Inspirations to Bring You Closer Together. It’s a wonderful resource, and you can learn more at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And Jim, here’s how you began part two of the panel conversation on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: You talk about this why couples need to choose, uh, kinda who is going to win when they get into that argument. I, you know, when you’re getting into a little discussion, I’ve had people, you know, text us and say-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … “If you’re Christian, you shouldn’t argue.”
Greg: (laughs) Yeah.
Jim: And I, okay, but-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … you know, the real world is, uh-
Jean: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jim: … you do come to some differences.
Greg: Right.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: But I like that idea, thinking through who’s gonna win here.
Erin: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jim: And your, I, I know your answer, obviously, but sometimes stopping to think that through-
Erin: Uh-huh.
Jim: … in the middle of emotions is a-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … little hard, but explain who wins.
Erin: Yeah. Well, oftentimes we’ll oppose our spouse, and-
Jim: Oftentimes? (laughter)
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Erin: Well, yes, because-
Jim: Most of the time.
Erin: Yes. When we’re triggered, we’re not thinking about our spouse and their pain, their feelings, how they’re doing. All, our pain is screaming, and so sometimes we end up setting it up that one of us is gonna win, one of us is gonna lose.
Jim: Yeah.
Erin: And then our team loses. So, really looking at when we’re entering into differences and differences of opinion, different likes, dislikes that, you know, what is it really that’s gonna work for our team?
Jim: Mm.
Erin: What’s a win/win? So how can we win together? And I can think about several years back, we moved, we sold our house and we were moving into a new house, and the people buying our house wanted a lot of our furniture. They wanted to buy our furniture, so we kinda had a running list of what we could do for the new house, and it was very succinct. And so one time we were with all of our kids and the girls and I were talking about what I was gonna purchase first, and so I was just going on and on, you know, “Oh, and we need that new couch and that table, and blah, blah, blah.”
Greg: What about our hot tub? What about… Yeah.
Jim: (laughs)
Erin: And all of a sudden he snapped like right in the middle, and I was like, “What just happened?”
Greg: Oh, ’cause it was so stressing me out, because the list got so long (laughter) that it was like double of the money that we were gonna spend.
Erin: He t-
Greg: And, and, and so it stressed me out to the point that I did, I said, “Erin, you promised you’ll stick in the budget and nothing you’re talking about is in the budget.” And all the kids wide-eyed looking at me like-
Erin: Right.
Greg: … “What is wrong with dad?”
Erin: What just happened?
Jim: Budget master.
Greg: And so I’m kinda, you know, huffing in my chair, and Erin gets up and walks straight at me. A- and it was the first time in our 32 years of marriage that I really was like-
Erin: (laughs)
Greg: … i- is she gonna grab me? (laughs) Is sh… Certainly she won’t hit. Like, what’s about to happen? She came right over and grabbed my cheeks with both her hands and held me, and she got real close. And I am so confu… I had no idea.
Erin: (laughter) His eyes were like, “What’s happening?”
Greg: What is gonna happen? And she goes, “I want you to remember one thing.” I’m like, “Yes, ma’am.” (laughter) She goes, “We are on the same team, and because of that, I won’t spend a dime unless it’s something that you and I agree to and we decide together.”
Jean: Oh-
Greg: “You matter and I matter. We’ll figure this out together, teammate.” She kissed me and then just like dropped my head and I flung back in the chair, and then she goes right back over and the girls and her kept dreaming up of all this whatever she was gonna get.
Jean: That’s beautiful.
Greg: It really was.
Jim: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: It, we had, we had taught that idea for, for years, but it just, it was such a comfort being reminded-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … that we are on the same team.
Jim: Okay.
Erin: We’re in this together.
Jim: But I gotta ask the question, did she go over the budget?
Greg: She did not. (laughter) I- in the, in-
Jim: Way to go.
Jean: Wow. Well done.
Greg: That was the whole-
Jim: S- somebody out there’s thinking, “Well, did she go over?”
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: “And what’d you do about it?”
Erin: Right.
Greg: We onl- I mean, we, we even got different stuff than even was on the list-
Erin: Yeah. (laughter)
Greg: … but we talked that through. And that-
Erin: Right.
Greg: That’s what’s cool about that.
Jim: That’s good.
Jean: Yeah.
Jim: Well done.
Greg: … is just, it just relaxes everybody.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah, it’s so true.
Greg: We didn’t get a hot tub though, so I’m still reeling for that. (laughter)
Jim: You’re angling for that.
Greg: Exactly.
Erin: So Jim, in the book, The Healthy Marriage Devotional, you write about the wrong formula couples use in conflict. So, if you write about the wrong one, what’s the right one? (laughter)
Jim: No, that’s a great question. I think Jean is probably better at this, and I think you taught me th- what, how to do this a little better over the years. You’ve just become so skilled at slowing down, thinking about what you wanna say.
Erin: Mm.
Jim: And I, I think I’ve learned this through observing her-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and how she began to treat our conflict from time to time. And, you know, she would say, “Let’s deal with this later.” Or, “Let’s calm down.” Or whatever it might be. And you need that.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: You need some cool head in the moment to say-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … “I don’t think this is the healthiest time to be-”
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: “… doing this.”
Greg: To take a break or, yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I would say I, I actually didn’t come up with it myself. I really observed it in how Jean began to deal with those moments when we had conflict.
Erin: Mm.
Jim: And she would slow us down together and kind of say, “Let’s take this up later tonight, or-”
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: “… not right now.”
Erin: Mm, mm-hmm.
Jim: And it, those are some of the things. I mean, I’m not a big formula guy, that’s my spontaneity. (laughter)
Jean: Yeah, right.
Jim: I mean, so I g- I, I even cringe a little thinking formula, but there are good predictive behaviors that we can do-
Jean: Yeah.
Jim: … that give us better results, and that, that was part of it. Just how do we ratchet down the emotion-
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … in the moment so we can get to a better place emotionally-
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: Yeah.
Jim: … and talk these things through?
Jean: Yeah.
Jim: And that’s I think the secret.
Greg: Well, even, uh, I mean, d- it’s not necessarily a formula, but, you know, in, in Matthew where Jesus is saying, “Hey, why do you look at the dust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention-”
Jean: Oh.
Greg: “… to the log?”
Jean: Yes.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And he does kinda give us a formula and order. First, get the-
Jean: Yes.
Greg: I always wanted to say, “Get the dust out of your brother’s eye.” ‘Cause I’m so aware of what Erin could do in that moment to change or to do different-
Erin: Oh, I know.
Greg: … so that I feel better. (laughs)
Erin: I know.
Greg: I’ve tried to help her, it just doesn’t… (laughter)
Jim: Well, yeah. Totally.
Erin: And that works so well.
Jean: Right.
Greg: Versus the, the right thing is, though, is w- how do I get the log out of my own eye? And what you’re saying is-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … how do I take that break-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … to allow my emotions to calm down?
Jean: Right.
Erin: Well, and we have choice-
Jim: Yeah.
Erin: … in what we do. I always thought, just do what comes naturally. That doesn’t work-
Jean: No.
Erin: … by the way.
Jim: Yeah.
Erin: So, by being intentional-
Jean: (laughs) No.
Erin: … slowing it down, I can actually calm down inside and think rationally-
Jim: Mm.
Erin: … about what I want to do, how I wanna show up.
Jean: Yeah, yeah.
Greg: Yeah, well the scriptures talk, you know, to husbands to treat your wife in a tender, kind way, and we can’t do that when our emotions are all heightened.
Jean: Right.
Jim: That’s true.
Greg: So even that-
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: … requires that break that you’re talking about. That’s a good part of the formula.
Jim: Well, it’s right in the Word and we gotta know the Word to apply the Word.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So read the Word.
Greg: It helps. (laughter)
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: Well, I have a question for you, Greg.
Erin: Ooh.
Greg: Oh, boy.
Jim: This is good. I like this.
Erin: (laughs)
Jean: Uh, you’ve written a lot of books about marriage, and one of the strategies you urge couples to use is something you call heart talk.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm.
Jean: So what is heart talk and how does it work, especially when there’s a conflict-
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: … between a husband and wife?
Jim: You’re the one that came up with that?
Greg: No. That was probably s- Bob Paul, our, our colleague, (laughter) that came up with that.
Jim: That’s funny.
Greg: You know, I, one of the things that I learned that was so helpful is that there’s a great researcher, John Gottman, and he talks about, he says that 70% of all arguments are perpetual. In other words, there’s not a solution. And, and what that means is that you, you think about that we’re trained to do conflict resolution, to find the solution, to fix whatever the problem is, and that’s not reality. The, the truth is that most of our conflicts are about personality differences. Erin’s extroverted, I’m introverted, that, we’re not gonna chan- that’s not gonna change. (laughter)
Erin: Although it, it is some, some… You’ve, you’ve prayed long enough.
Greg: S- you’ve become more introverted, which is good. (laughter) But, but, but so it’s not how do we resolve that-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … personality differences or even lifestyle. You know, Erin and I battle over lights being on in our home. (laughter) Erin, lifestyle wise, loves having every light on-
Erin: Uh, not every light.
Greg: … and it drives me crazy.
Erin: I like to create a mood in the house.
Greg: Last night I went-
Jim: Don’t ever use every or most or always.
Greg: Well, it’s always. It, I’m telling you. I went to bed early last night, got up because something was bugging me, and, and I realize someone left the hall light on.
Jean: Oh, yes.
Greg: All night long.
Jean: I can see that.
Greg: Like, all the money that we wasted.
Jim: 30 cents.
Greg: We could’ve given that to Focus on the Family, but that’s gone now ’cause the lights were on. That stuff’s not going away.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And so the goal really for me changed from how do we resolve or solve the problem to how do we repair it? Which requires us to lean in more to the emotion, and that’s the heart talk part. I love Teddy Roosevelt said, “People don’t care what you know, so they don’t care how you’re gonna solve it, resolve it, until they know that you care.”
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: That’s right.
Greg: And, and that, that-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … took me a long time to realize actually the best place to begin for me with, when we’re trying to work through a conflict is just to lean into the emotions, to care about how did that impact Erin?
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: Not how do we solve it, how do we figure out what the right temperature setting is for our home, which is (laughter) 65 degrees, by the way. It, it’s, it’s just caring about that.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: So it, it took me to learn that, that I have to look at our conflict very differently and go-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … “How do we just re- repair-”
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: “… the inevitable stuff that comes up around the differences and, and all that?” And that just means the heart talk part is, is prioritizing how that impacted her heart, how that caused her to feel.
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: And so, you know, eh, whenever we argue now, that’s, I can always go to that place of going, “Okay, so when this and this and this happened, how did that make you feel?”
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: “What was that like for you?”
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And just care.
Erin: Yeah.
Greg: And th- and that’s, that’s-
Jean: Yeah. Yes.
Greg: … transformed our conflict, because it’s, it’s the right goal.
Erin: Right.
Jim: And you’re tipping into the question I wanted to ask everybody, but Jean, you don’t have to answer this one. (laughter) Um, when it comes to the intimacy issue.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: I mean, intimacy is much bigger than just physical intimacy-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … it’s that emotional intimacy.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And this is a great battle between male and female. You know, it’s, part of it is brain chemistry and wiring and what the Lord, uh, you know, how He’s created us.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But, um, you mentioned developing that intimacy throughout the day-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and, and then being able to combine that for emotional intimacy-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … physical intimacy. It’s probably, you know, finances and physical intimacy are probably the two biggest problems that arise in marriage.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And-
Greg: Huge arguments, right.
Jim: So in that regard, speak to the, uh, right way to see this and how to sow the seeds-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … going back to yesterday-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … so that, you know, this doesn’t become a big debate issue in your marriage.
Erin: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Well, uh, as we talked about on day one, we’re busy. People run at fast paces, and small kids or big kids or-
Jim: (laughs)
Erin: … work or church commitments.
Greg: We’re exhausted, yeah.
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: Right.
Erin: And so it’s, we encourage couples to look at things that are already happening on their plate and utilize those to, to build connection throughout the day. You know, simple things, we call them connection rituals. How do we say goodbye when someone’s leaving? How do we show each other we care about each other before we part ways for the day? Do we check in throughout the day? Um, how do we greet each other when we come back home? Are we dropping what we’re doing and turning toward and, you know, meeting each other with a holy kiss?
Jim: (laughs)
Erin: Greeting each other-
Jim: I like holy kiss.
Erin: … with a holy kiss.
Jim: It’s good.
Erin: Yeah.
Greg: It’s beautiful, really.
Erin: But especially, how are we saying goodnight? At the end of the day, what are we doing in that moment? Are we praying together? Are we offering praise to each other? You know, uh, are we affirming each other before we go to sleep? Because that’s the last word our spouse-
Jim: Ah.
Erin: … is gonna hear from us before they drift off to sleep.
Jean: And each of those things you just mentioned, those do not take much time-
Greg: No.
Erin: No.
Jean: … at all.
Erin: And they’re already happening.
Jim: Yeah.
Jean: What you’ve mentioned like three minutes-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … totally in the day. And it is, in part, dying to ourselves.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: You, maybe you don’t feel like affirming your spouse, but that’s the right thing to do.
Jim: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: And as you affirm your s- we affirm one another-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … then you feel more in love with your spouse-
Jim: Yeah.
Jean: … and they become more kinder and gentler-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … towards you.
Jim: And it kinda feeds e- on each other in a good way-
Erin: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jim: … a positive. Um, you know, we talked about the secrets of a happy marriage through the survey results.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And one thing in there was find activities that you like to share together. So Jean, y- you’ve done a great job. I mean, y- you could care less about football years ago.
Jean: (laughs)
Jim: And of course, I would wanna watch a football game, but-
Greg: That breaks our hearts-
Jim: … over-
Greg: … to know that.
Jim: … over time, you know, Jean would sit there with me and-
Greg: (laughs)
Jim: … “Tell me more about that guy’s family.” (laughter) “I don’t know anything about his family!”
Jean: (laughs) Right?
Erin: Yeah.
Greg: I just wanna watch.
Jim: Yeah. “Does he have children?” “I don’t know.” (laughter) But it, but it is fun. I mean, and you’ve, you’ve really done that. I mean, you’ve become a fan, and you sit with me for a bit of the game and, and, or all the game if it’s a Broncos game. (laughs)
Jean: Right. But I, uh, you’re right, initially I didn’t care. (laughter) But I wanted to be around you.
Jim: Yeah.
Erin: Mm.
Jean: But, oh, no, the NFL has my number. I’m their target audience. (laughter) They do those little side stories about the family and-
Erin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jean: Oh, and then I’m gonna-
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Pulls you in.
Jim: The hook is in.
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: Yeah, so I have become quite a fan, but it started with just wanting to spend time with you and getting into your world.
Jim: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I think the other thing, although now it’s a little more difficult physically ’cause I’ve got a hip issue, but walking with you-
Greg: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … is something I’m, I try to do with you, uh, a little more.
Jean: Right, and that’s true, and I love to go on kind of easy hikes.
Greg: Mm.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: And I know Jim has done that with me, uh, not because you love hiking, but because he knows I enjoy it. We drive together-
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … so you talk together. And I would say, you know, one of the simplest things we do now, but we do have more time and space in our life, the, our morning time together. So we’ll have coffee together.
Erin: Mm.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: And we do often have a quiet time together, do some reading and praying, and that, I, I think we both enjoy it-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … and it is such connection time for us.
Erin: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jim: V- verily bonding.
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, that’s one of the things every couple should do.
Greg: Right.
Jim: Christian couple, for sure.
Erin: Yeah.
Greg: Right. And the beauty of what you’re talking about is the reason why that’s important is ’cause we’re always changing.
Jean: Right.
Greg: And so if we don’t have those little devo times or those walks to where we’re asking the questions to stay current and updated-
Erin: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Greg: … then, then Erin and I will lose sight of each other. We start to drift, and then all of a sudden we feel like married roommates.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: And so that’s what’s so cool about that. It’s not just, “Hey, we’ll have coffee together.” It’s you’re using that to ask each other, “Hey, tell me about your day.” Or, “How you feeling about this?”
Jean: Right.
Greg: “What’s God been teaching you?”
Erin: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Greg: All those conversation starter kinds of stuff.
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and our panel of guests include Jim’s wife, Jean, and our colleagues, Dr. Greg and Erin Smalley. And they’re discussing a new Focus on the Family book compiled by Jim, uh, the title is The Healthy Marriage Devotional: 365 Daily Inspirations to Bring You Closer Together. We’ll tell you more about the resource when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or visit focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And now, the conclusion of our panel conversation on today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: Greg, before the little break, I wanna finish that idea, uh, y- of intimacy. You have talked a lot about the importance of sharing things with your spouse first.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: I don’t know if she wants to know my golf score. (laughter) I don’t know, Jean, are you-
Greg: Depends on how impressive it is.
Jim: … happy with it-
Erin: Yeah.
Jean: No. Okay, yeah.
Jim: Maybe not.
Jean: I, I don’t love hearing the golf score.
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: But if it’s important to you, then-
Erin: Y- y- yes.
Jean: … I want you to share that with me.
Jim: Just as an example. But what are you getting at with share things with your spouse first?
Greg: Yeah. I- it’s kinda that idea biblically, first fruits, and, and just giving our very best-
Jim: Oh, that’s a good concept.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: I, I know for me, I’ve had the privilege of preaching, you know, at church before, and, and when there’s multiple services what really stood out is that first time that, that I share that particular message, man, I bring the passion, the emotion, the energy. It’s the best in that-
Erin: Mm.
Greg: … sense. You know, the second or third service, it’s polished, you know, I figured out now the right timing, but it, it’s that first time that we share something has all that emotion, the passion and that energy that Erin deserves.
Jim: Oh, t- yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Greg: And so why I wanna share things with her first is ’cause I wanna offer that, that gift of going, “Man, you d…” You know, even, even if it’s clunky and-
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Greg: … I don’t have all the right details or I go on and on about something, i- if, if she gets to hear that first, she gets to see probably the, the, the real me, versus the, this is my third time to say it so now I’ve got it down and it’s even funnier, and I don’t cry this time.
Jean: (laughs)
Greg: It’s, it’s, that’s the benefit of sharing with her first.
Jim: It’s good. That’s a great concept.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I’m kinda smiling because, uh, you know, in terms of sharing (laughs) with your spouse first, so I, I remember one time we did a broadcast with a marriage expert and, uh, I can’t remember all the content, but they said, “You know, you need to do three things when you see each other at the end of the day. Have a long kiss. Look at each other in the eye for 10 seconds, and then ask one another how your day was.” So I, I, that’s really good, I like that. So I get home that night (laughter) and I pop in the door, “Hun, come give me a big hug.”
Greg: That’s right, we’re locking lips.
Jim: And I’m going, “One, two, three.” (laughter) Trying to get to 10. And then I’m like, “Okay, kiss me.” Big kiss. And then I said, “Was there something about your day that was great or not so great?” And (laughs) Jean goes, “Who did you record with today?” (laughter)
Erin: She’s onto you.
Jim: I thought that was so funny, ’cause she s… You know, it’s not the-
Jean: It was obvious, but he’s trying.
Greg: That’s right.
Erin: Yes.
Jim: It wasn’t the normal way I would come home.
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: But sometimes I do that, I still do that, you know-
Greg: See?
Jim: … when there’s a great tip ab- oh-
Greg: It’s about growth. That’s right. Yeah.
Jim: … about marriage, I’ll come home and Jean’s m- Jean’s my guinea pig. (laughs) And you’re sharp.
Jean: But I don’t ask anymore.
Jim: You d-
Erin: Who, who was your guest?
Jean: I don’t, because that, that’s a slam. I mean, he’s trying.
Erin: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: He’s trying, so I never ask-
Greg: He’s trying.
Jim: But in the back of your head-
Jean: … who you’ve recorded with.
Jim: … in the back of your head you are thinking.
Jean: Sure, but that’s okay.
Jim: “I wonder who he recorded with.” (laughter)
Jean: That’s okay. You’re trying.
Jim: Well, that’s a good thing.
Greg: Jim, I’ll never forget Erin and I celebrating our 25th anniversary on a cruise. So we’re up on the top, sun is dipping below.
Jim: Wow.
Greg: It’s beautiful, and I was all inspired.
Jean: Nice.
Greg: It felt like a really great season in our marriage, so I say to Erin, “Hey, how would you rate our marriage-”
Jim: Oh, yes. (laughter)
Greg: “… from 0 to 10?”
Jean: Oh.
Greg: Thinking certainly an 8.9, if not 9.
Jim: Leave her room to grow.
Jean: Oh, yes.
Greg: Yeah, and so she goes, “Eh, if I’m being honest, probably a 6 or a 7.” (laughter) And I felt so devastated thinking-
Erin: You were so insulted.
Greg: … I was so, such a failure as a husband, even though we’re sitting in this beautiful place. And I know in the book you asked a very similar question, which takes a lotta courage.
Jim: Yeah.
Greg: You gotta be brave. I think you asked Jean, “What are two things that I can be doing to improve our marriage?” Wow.
Jim: Yeah, and I’ll get to that, but we did have that discussion too-
Greg: Did you really?
Jim: … the rating game. I think I was a 9 and she was a 3. (laughter)
Jean: Oh, yes.
Jim: You remember that?
Jean: Yeah. I don’t recommend rating-
Erin: No.
Jim: That’s not a good thing.
Greg: Well, wait, like you rated her a 3 and she rated you a 9?
Jim: No, no, no.
Greg: Oh.
Jim: I rated our marriage a 9.
Greg: Got you, and she s-
Jim: And, you know, a little r… She said, “I think it’s a 3.”
Greg: Wow.
Jim: (laughs) Oh, man.
Greg: W-
Jim: Okay, which led then to the next step.
Greg: Yes.
Jim: Uh, I remember taping with a marriage expert, and I come home and I say, uh, “What are two things I can do to improve our marriage?” And she like, “Well, one…” Boom, and told me.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: “And two…” Boom.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: And I think you even had a third.
Greg: And three and, and four.
Jim: Just in case.
Jean: I’m sure. (laughter)
Greg: A bonus. It’s a bonus, really.
Jim: So, but I mean, it’s like, wow, she had this ready-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … to go. And I was kinda shocked by that actually. (laughs)
Jean: Which, I have always been shocked that you were shocked by that. Yes.
Jim: That’s true, you are prepared for everything, every potential outcome. (laughter)
Greg: You should know that you need to improve.
Jean: Right.
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: I just, I didn’t realize it had been 15 years she had been waiting for that question. (laughter)
Jean: S-
Jim: But it was good. I mean, it wasn’t dramatic stuff. It was like-
Jean: No.
Jim: … “I just want like heart talk.”
Greg: Mm.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I want more meaningful talk.
Jean: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I don’t wanna talk about superficial things-
Greg: Yeah.
Jim: … always.
Greg: Nice.
Jim: Which that was good. And then I can’t even now remember the second one, which is probably-
Jean: I actually can’t remember the other one either, but obviously-
Jim: All right, well here we go. Hang on.
Jean: … I’d been waiting for you to ask me.
Jim: Yeah. Hang on. Okay. What are, what-
Greg: But it, it’s hard. Why do you think it’s so hard for guys to, to hear that sort of feedback from our wives?
Jim: (laughs) ‘Cause we’ll have to change the way we behave. (laughter) That’s it, but here the question. Okay, what are two things I could do to improve our marriage now?
Greg: Oh, boy.
Erin: Oh, he’s being brave.
Jim: Yeah. I’m out there.
Jean: I-
Jim: Oh, that is awesome.
Jean: I, right?
Jim: Yeah, it wasn’t this last time.
Jean: I really-
Jim: It was like, “One, two, three.”
Jean: … have to think about that.
Erin: Hm.
Jim: So that’s an improvement.
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: That is definitely an improvement.
Jim: Yeah. Oh, what a place to end the program today.
Jean: Yes.
Erin: (laughs)
Greg: Just Jim has no improvement points, yeah.
Jean: Well, and, and I just wanna share with listeners or those watching, I mean, you may th- be thinking that we each have, of course we have perfect marriages.
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: You know, you two are therapists-
Greg: We’re good enough marriages, right? Yeah.
Jean: … and write books, and Jim heads up Focus on the Family. But we don’t have perfect marriages-
Erin: Nuh-uh.
Jean: … because we’re imperfect people.
Greg: Right.
Erin: Right.
Jean: We’ll, we’ll always be imperfect people.
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: But I do encourage people to stick with it.
Jim: Mm. Totally.
Jean: You know, it, your perfect person isn’t out there.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: They’re likely in your home with you.
Jim: (laughs)
Jean: And it is all about, you know, trying to become a better you.
Erin: Right.
Greg: Yeah.
Jean: You know, working on me, working on my relationship with the Lord, looking at my heart, eh, which helps me become a better spouse. And-
Greg: Love it.
Jean: And if I’m kinder to Jim, he becomes kinder and a b- a better spouse to me, so it really is worth-
Greg: Yeah.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jean: … working on.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s a great thought and a good place to end. Uh, let me say thanks for being here, Greg and Erin.
Greg: Absolutely.
Erin: Yes.
Jim: It’s so good to have you, always.
Greg: It was fun.
Erin: So fun.
Jim: And Jean, thank you.
Jean: Absolutely.
Jim: Yeah.
Jean: This was great.
John: Some pretty profound insights from our panel on this episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Uh, Jim, you were joined in the studio by your wife, Jean, and our colleagues, Dr. Greg Smalley and his wife Erin to discuss a book you’ve put together. You’ve compiled, uh, a lot of great little, uh, nuggets of truth. The Healthy Marriage Devotional is the title of the book. The subtitle, 365 Daily Inspirations to Bring You Closer Together.
Jim: Yeah. It was, uh, my privilege to work on this with Kenny Chapman, who helped me, uh, collect and organize various tips and stories about marriage that we featured on this program from many of the experts, uh, you and I have interviewed, John. And it was a lotta fun reviewing that content, compiling it. And again, with Jean and Greg and Erin, uh, getting their input on that as well. It’s always wise to get the input of your spouse. (laughs)
John: E- especially when you’re writing about marriage.
Jim: Yeah. You don’t wanna do that out there on a limb. Uh, of course we wanna pass this resource on to you. Uh, if you can send a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family, we’ll say thank you by sending you this devotional. Uh, think of it as an early Christmas gift for your marriage, or for another couple you might know.
John: Yeah. In that context, you might want several copies. Uh, either way, donate generously, request the book. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or you can contribute to the work we’re doing here to strengthen marriages at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: And when you get in touch, please consider a year-end gift to the ministry. A lot of families are planning their end of year giving right now, and we’d appreciate your consideration here at Focus on the Family. Uh, the bulk of our yearly budget, about half, is raised during this critical time. And thanks to the generosity of some friends, uh, here at Focus, we have a fun kind of incentive going on, as we normally do at the year-end, where you can send a gift of any amount and that will be matched dollar for dollar. That’s, you know, 25 bucks becomes 50, and 50 becomes 100 and so on. It’s a great opportunity for everybody, and for you, because you can do twice as much with that gift that you give to Focus. And I do wanna say thanks to you and thanks to those generous people putting up the seed investment for this.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, your support helps us give families hope as we work together to strengthen marriages and empower parents and save preborn babies and so much more. Again, our number, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or you can double your gift at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And coming up tomorrow, some practical help from Dr. Gary Chapman about how to navigate the relationship between parents and adult children.
Dr. Gary Chapman: We can’t change our adult children and their decisions. We can’t control them.
Jim: Right.
Dr. Chapman: When we do, we lose the opportunity to influence them.
John: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
