Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One:

John Fuller: Well, today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we’ll be exploring what it means to live a radical life as a follower of Jesus Christ. And our guest shares, uh, one example of what radical living looks like.

Greg Stier: Tim O said, “I want you to go to the mall on a busy Friday night, and I want you to sit there.” I’m 12 years old at the time. I’m like, “Okay.” “And I want you to watch people for 30 minutes, and I want you to put an imaginary tag on their forehead that reads, ‘Bound for Hell.’” First few minutes, I’m, you know, I’m, I feel self-conscious. They, they look at me watching them, they’re watching me watch them, you know?

Jim: Right.

Greg: But then I start imagining Bound for Hell, and I’m seen all the people pass by, and within 30 minutes, I was bawling my eyes out-

John: Hmm.

Greg: … because I could see that sign Bound for Hell, and I knew what life on this side of eternity was like without Christ, and that’s what they were experiencing.

John: That’s Greg Stier, a youth ministry leader who wants to motivate and equip you, as a believer, to live out a revolutionary life and walk in faith with God as He’s called us to do. Welcome to the show, your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: You know, John, Jesus truly was a radical, and we don’t often think of Him in that context, but especially, uh, in modern Christianity, I think we’ve kinda lost that vibe-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … you know, that He was this radical guy that, man, set women free. He did so much to kinda revolutionize the world, right?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And, uh, He was also that rabbi who said, “Love your enemies,” and healed the lepers, the blind, and, I mean, He was the guy.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that’s why history remembers Him the way that we do. And the gospel is still revolutionary today, and I’m not sure we, as Christians, understand it in quite the same way as the first, second century. And our guest today is gonna talk about that radical nature of God. He’s written a book called Radical Like Jesus: 21 Challenges to Live a Revolutionary Life. This is one you want to kick back, grab that cup of coffee, and listen to.

John: Mm-hmm, yeah, and Greg Stier is the founder and visionary for Dare to Share Ministries, and, uh, he’s spent more than 30 years training youth leaders and students in relational evangelism, and he walks the talk. Uh, you can learn more about Greg and Dare to Share, and this book, Radical Like Jesus. We’ve got the details for you at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Greg, welcome back to Focus.

Greg: So glad to be back here.

Jim: Yeah, it’s good, just a little drive from Denver for you.

Greg: It’s a beautiful-

Jim: (laughs)

Greg: … beautiful drive.

Jim: That’s excellent. Okay. Let’s get into it. I mean, how would you define the word radical? What does that mean in the Christian context?

Greg: You know, I, I didn’t call the book Radical for Jesus, ’cause we don’t need any more radicals for Jesus. We need to be radical like Jesus. And He was radical on every level. I mean, He loved the unlovable, He reached out to the bad, the broken, the bullied, and the bullies. Um, He s- s- spoke truth, I mean, you drop the Beatitudes, you know, Matthew 5, I mean, just reverberated throughout the crowd, did the radical gospel of grace, that were saved not by works but by faith. I mean, everything about Jesus was radical, the way He loved, the way He stood for truth. I mean, He purified the temple, and at the beginning of His ministry, at the end of His ministry.

Jim: Yeah. It’s so good. You, uh, you know, I had these experiences like you, uh, early in my Christian walk, where I would spend the night out in the desert and pray to the Lord. You had a similar experience with, um, I think, a mountaintop experience that you w- while writing the book or something?

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: What happened?

Greg: I’m writing this book. I, I normally go to Estes Park. Uh, my-

Jim: (laughs) That’s great.

Greg: My in-laws have a timeshare there-

Jim: That’s beautiful.

Greg: … so we’re up there, and I try to write in the mountains. I’m just motivated, uh, by them. And I’m doing all these chapters about the life of Jesus, and I, I stumble on the passages where Jesus spent the night and the mountains praying to God. I’m like, “Well, I’ve never done that.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: So, I went to the YMCA of the Rockies-

John: Uh-huh.

Greg: … and I did a three-hour hike. You can a- actually get into the Rocky Mountain National Park. I did pay my fee, by the way.

Jim: (laughs)

Greg: And, uh-

Jim: It’s a great spot.

Greg: … three hours into the Rocky Mountain National Park, and, uh, sat on a boulder and tried to pray all night. I emphasized try because I did doze off a few times-

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: … so I thought maybe I, I’d call the book Typical Like Peter–

John: Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Greg: … instead of Radical Like Jesus, because he fell asleep too. Um, but it was a powerful experience, uh, praying all night. I should have chosen a night there was, the moon was out.

John: Hmm.

Greg: It was completely dark.

John: Oh.

Greg: But it really, uh, gave me a view of Jesus and His commitment to prayer.

Jim: Yeah. Why do you think that is? Again, I, I said that, you know, this is back in college when I did that Joshua Tree National Park. Now, I don’t know why I didn’t choose the mountains. That sounds… I went to the desert. (laughs) But there is something amazing about that solitary time with God.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s like He honors that person-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … that will dedicate that time and search for Him and seek Him.

Greg: I think so. And I think we live in such a busy world where everybody’s on their phones or they’re driving somewhere, or they’re late to a meeting to get away and to get with God, and to pray. And, and not just all night on the mountaintop, but, you know, Luke 5 says that Jesus is, His, His habit was withdrawing to pray.

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: I mean, you wouldn’t wanna invite Jesus to be a camp speaker or a conference speaker because He’d be out wandering around somewhere praying. And why is that? Because I think that’s what intimacy with God. He was getting direction from His Father, and He was interceding.

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: And what a lesson to us and really humbled me really studying the life of Jesus and saying, “How can I live this out?” Because that’s, I think that’s the key is, 1 John 2:6 says, “If we claim to abide in Him, we must walk as Jesus walked.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: And so, we have the same Holy Spirit and is Christ in us and through us, according to Galatians 2:20. So, why are we not doing this?

John: Hmm.

Jim: Well, that’s the 50,000-foot question, right? Some people listening right now are going, “Eh, okay, He’s God.”

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: “He had this mission. He knew much more than I know. I’m just a simple human being.”

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: Um, for that person, how would you encourage them to be more radical like Jesus? Because I think as human beings, we’ve, you know, kind of fold into a groove and we go to school, we get a job, we work, we get married, we have family. And, you know, it just keeps rolling. I don’t think we see ourselves as radicals.

Greg: Well, if we allow Christ to live through us. So the illustration I use is from Major Ian Thomas. This is an old illustration. If I had a work glove in my hands right now, the problem with the work glove is the work glove doesn’t work. If I just lay it on the table, it doesn’t work.

Jim: (laughs)

Greg: Right?

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: It just lays there. As soon as you put the hand in the glove, now the glove can do anything the hand can do.

John: Hmm.

Greg: So, it’s Christ in us. Jesus said, “Apart from me, you could do nothing.” But if every day throughout the day, we are filled with His spirit, then is Christ living through us. I have a alarm on my watch seven times a day. It just vibrates and says, “Get filled.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: And it’s to remind myself, “Lord, get filled with the Spirit.” Dale Moody said, “We must constantly stay under the fountain of Christ, because we are leaky vessels.”

John: Yeah.

Greg: So, just to remind ourselves to get filled with the Spirit. And when we do that, it’s Christ in us and through us.

Jim: You know, Greg, when you were a boy, this was emerging, uh, in reading the book. I mean, you, you had a sense of the Lord, God was shaping your life even as a boy through difficulty.

Greg: Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Which I appreciate. That was kind of my path as well. But some listening, you know, we have temperaments that are part of who we are and how we’re made. And-

John: Hmm.

Jim: … you know, some people who are extroverted, outgoing find evangelism so much easier than others. And of course, you have prophets and teachers, and the Word talks about those skills, those disciplines that God gives each of us. Do you encounter that with somebody that’s more introverted perhaps, not to… That struggle with, “Okay. I, I don’t like engaging a lot of people. I like three fins really deep.”

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: “I don’t like talking to a wide range of people.”

Greg: Well, I’ve been-

Jim: Are they failing in their walk?

Greg: No, no. I think everybody shares Christ differently. You know, I’m married to someone who is not an extrovert like me, and she’s a public school teacher for 30 years.

John: Hmm.

Greg: Uh, and she would shine the light of Christ in the public school and drop gospel breadcrumbs as she could. And her fellow teachers knew she was a believer in Christ. And when kids would bring up, “Hey, where do you stand?” Which she would seed the conversation and salt the conversation, she would share. The way I describe it, Jim, is this is, it’s like a teeter-totter. All of us are one side of the teeter-totter. One side is relational, the other side is relentless. You know, I’m a relentless side of the teeter-totter. Somebody says it’s hot in here, I say, “It’s hot in hell too. Lemme tell you about Jesus.” Boom.

Jim: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Greg: (laughs) And, uh, my wife is on the relational side of the teeter totter, right?

Jim: Okay.

Greg: And, um, she builds relationships over the course of time. But whatever side of the teeter-totter you’re on is fine as long as you ask the Holy Spirit to sit on the other side.

John: Hmm.

Greg: And so God has, through His Holy Spirit and through my wife’s influence, helped me become more relational. And the Lord has helped my wife, through His Holy Spirit and through me, to help her become more relentless.

Jim: Yeah, that’s great.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: That’s kind of becoming one, right?

Greg: It’s becoming one. Yeah.

Jim: That’s what marriage does for you.

Greg: Amen.

Jim: Uh, in your book, Radical Like Jesus, you identified 21 challenges for believers to live radically for Christ. I think in one of those umbrella statements, you talk about the B word, and you identified, I think, three things, three Bs that you can learn from Jesus’ example.

Greg: Yeah. I- in every chapter, it’s g- it is an interesting exercise because every chapter’s got a challenge that… I wrote it this way, just, just so you know. I think so many times we read and we don’t do.

Jim: Oh, of course.

Greg: You know?

Jim: Yeah, that’s the church’s problem.

Greg: That’s the church’s problem.

Jim: (laughs)

Greg: It’s like pouring milk into a sponge and not squeezing it out. It spoils.

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: And so, the, you know, the goal of the B chapter is based on when Jesus was in the temple, and He was 12 years old. He ditched His mom and dad. They were, you know, frustrated ’cause they had no idea where He was. He was in the temple. He said, “Did you not know I must be in my Father’s house?” And it was there He was asking questions, uh, of the leading teachers of the day, in process and theology and learning… He’s really understanding. Jesus didn’t come out of the womb, uh, quoting the Torah. He had to memorize scripture. He had to process through all this stuff. And you could see that processing happen. That’s when He was with His Father. He was intentional, right? And, and, you know, I, I think one of the things that we need to be in our time with God is we need to be intentional.

Jim: Be intentional.

Greg: Be intentional.

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: And that we’re spending time consistently with the Father, just like Jesus did, right?

John: Hmm.

Greg: Um, I think we need to be curious. We need to be, you know, asking questions when we’re in our time with the Word. One of the things… Just to kinda share a story. When I was a kid, I was raised in this, you know, crazy home. I got away underneath the kitchen sink, when I was five years old, with my Bible and a flashlight. And it was underneath that kitchen sink, to get away from the noise and the violence, uh, that I would just be with the Father. And I would ask questions and I would study. It was my only solace of quiet.

Jim: Why did you have that thought to read the Bible? I mean, what, as a boy, what was in you that said, “This is what will help me”?

Greg: So my mom and my uncles, my uncles were bodybuilders and street fighters. My mom was a partier. My grandparents were Baptists.

Jim: (laughs) So-

Greg: And they-

Jim: … did you guys see them much?

Greg: Yes.

Jim: Okay. That’s good.

Greg: And they, they, I think they felt guilty in how their kids turned out, so they took my brother and I to church. Bethany Baptist Church.

Jim: Huh.

Greg: And I got my Bible and I just started reading it. I didn’t know. I could barely read the King James.

John: Hmm.

Greg: But I knew the answers were in there. And so, I did my flashlight and I would just study and study. I ask my teachers questions, my Sunday school teachers. Matter of fact, I remember when I finally understood the gospel, I went back to my Sunday school teacher, Mrs. Muirhead. I was eight years old. And I’m like, “Hey, all this let Jesus in your heart stuff confuses us kids. We have no idea what that means. I finally heard that Jesus died in my place for my sin, that He was buried, that He rose again, and I’m saved by faith alone in Christ. That’s what you need to preach.” So-

John: Oh my goodness.

Greg: … at eight years old, I was frustrated because it was unclear to me.

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: I was processing like Jesus in the temple. I was processing through. What do I believe? Tell me, Lord, what this means. And the Lord revealed it through the gospel of Christ and everything changed.

Jim: Yeah. Um, the next one is embrace, uh, to embrace God-given identity. This is critical today.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: You know, you look at teenagers, particularly schools-

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: … that are struggling with, uh, reinforcing their God-given identity. Um, I don’t think the culture really understands who we are as human beings created in His image and the identity that that brings us, particularly for the fatherless.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: You’ve mentioned that before. But speak to both camps, those kids that don’t have a dad in the home-

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: … who don’t… Are struggling with their identity, especially boys.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: And then, uh, for the general audience about, you know, our, our identity in Christ.

Greg: You know, you know this with your background, and I know this is my background, not, not ever meeting my biological father, that there is something about a dad that says, “I’m proud of you. Way to go.” That, you know, I’ve never experienced. But Jesus, if you look in Matthew 3, in Luke 3, the Father at His baptism said, “This is my Son whom I love. With Him, I’m well pleased.” And that was before He did any of His earthly ministry. And that same love…Here, and here’s the beautiful thing is through Christ and in Christ, we have a heavenly Father that says, “These are my… These are my sons and daughters whom I love. In them, I’m well pleased through Christ.” Knowing that, understanding that, you know, I, I never knew my dad. When my mom was dying, she said, “Do you remember what you used to say when kids would make fun of you for not having a dad?” I said, “I don’t remember.”

John: Hmm.

Greg: She said, “You used to say God’s my dad.”

John: Huh.

Greg: And I said, “I don’t remember saying that, ma.”

Jim: Wow.

Greg: But I remember feeling that.

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: And no one, you know, kids are struggling to self-identify, how do you self-identify the language of the day? And I’m like, “Listen, we self-identify as children of the living King if we put our faith in Christ.” You know.

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: Children of the living King. And knowing that identity gives you holy, humble swagger.

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: You know.

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: And helps these kids make it through this confusing life-

John: Yeah.

Greg: … so that identity is so important.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly is Greg Stier, and we’re covering some of the concepts in his book, Radical Like Jesus: 21 Challenges to Live a Revolutionary Life. Get a copy of the book from us here. We’ve got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And Greg, I, I so appreciate what you’re saying. I think even today, I struggle with my identity in Christ. It feels like the enemy and the world just kind of crushed that out of us. And you had a pretty poignant story about your son at school, and his identity was kind of, uh, called out in, in a negative way-

Greg: Oh, yeah.

John: … uh, by a teacher. Uh, share that with us.

Greg: Yeah. When he was in elementary school, um, he did something wrong. It wasn’t that big of a deal, but she said, “You- you’re a disgrace to your father.”

John: Hmm.

Greg: And he came into the car with my wife and I when we picked him up, and he just began to weep. And we, we heard what she had said. And, you know, I mean, we made a meeting with the principal and that-

Jim: (laughs)

Greg: … teacher right away, and-

Jim: Of course.

Greg: … heads rolled. I mean-

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: … I was not, I said, I told the lady, I said, “Listen, I’ve worked my entire life, uh, since, you know, Jared, since we’ve been parents, to be a kind of a parent that they know we love him no matter what. And no matter what mistakes he makes, he’s still, you know, our son-

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: … and we love him.” And so, I really think understanding the fact that through Christ, you know, when, when we put our faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross, we trust in Him, we’re born again into God’s family, and He’ll never leave us or forsake us. He’ll discipline us.

John: Yeah.

Greg: You know, take us to the woodshed, so to speak, and when we need it. But He loves us so, so much. And I think it’s, you know, important for, for our sons and daughters to know that, but I think spiritually, it’s important for us to remember that with our Heavenly Father.

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: It’s, it was interesting just with Jeremy, he, uh, when he was a senior in high school, he went through a time of secret rebellion.

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: Went to a Christian school. He woke me up at 1:00 in the morning.

John: Hmm.

Greg: My wife was downstairs. She had fallen asleep grading papers by the fireplace.

Jim: Oh, gee.

Greg: And, uh, he said, “Dad, I gotta confess something. Last school year, uh, for about six months, I was vaping.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: “I was doing marijuana. I was secretly getting drunk.”

John: Oh.

Greg: “And I can’t take it anymore. I feel too guilty. And I just wanna confess to you. What are my consequences?” And I’m like, “Jeremy, you woke me up at 1:00 in the morning.”

John: Yeah.

Greg: “I have not processed this. Your first consequence is going to wake, wake your mom up.” And we went down and woke her up, and it was a long night, long dark night of the soul, and until the sun came up.

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: Lots of tears, lots of crying. He was nervous that I would turn him in to the Christian school ’cause he had violated the honor code the last school year. And that was my tendency. I’m kind of a first time obedience kind of guy. And my wife says, “Hey, we need to pray and process through this.” So, we told Jeremy, “You need to give us two weeks to pray through the consequences.” During that two weeks, we discovered he had borrowed $500 for food over the course of that six months. It wasn’t for food, it was for alcohol, it was for marijuana, it was for vaping. And we started making a list of all the things he had done wrong. And we sat down two weeks later, he’s like, “Dad, what are my consequences?” I go, “First of all, I want you to look at this list of all the things you’ve done wrong, all the potential consequences.” He turned pale. He’s like, “Dad, these are all… These are all true.” He did not want us to turn ’em into the Christian school. You know, that was his big nervousness of getting kicked out, expelled. And he goes, “What are my consequences?” And I took a big black Sharpie and I wrote the word “tetelestai” over it. And he goes, “What does that mean?” I go, “That’s what Jesus said on the cross. Paid in full.”

John: Hmm.

Greg: “It is finished.” He goes, “Dad, I’m not worried about Jesus.”

John: Yeah.

Greg: “I know I’m forgiven by Him. I’m worried about you guys.” I go, “Jeremy, you’re not getting it. Here’s your consequence. You came to us, you confessed. Here’s your consequence. There is no consequence. I’m not gonna make you pay back the $500. We’re not gonna ground you. We’re not gonna turn you into the Christian school.” And then, I leaned over the table and said, “Unlike Jesus, this is a one-time deal.

Jim: (laughs)

Greg: Because I’m going Old Testament.

Jim: (laughs)

Greg: If you do this again.” And it grace so overwhelmed and broke him, forgiveness, really knowing he’s forgiven by Christ and by his parents. And that began an upward trajectory in his life. And he ser- he and his wife are serving the Lord today.

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: And I think a, a lot of that had to do with experiencing the forgiveness of Christ through mom and dad. You know? I’m not saying we should do that every time our children disobey or this. This is this one-time exception that we said, “You know what? He confessed. This is an opportunity to show the power of the grace of God,” and it impacted him.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Well, you’re into one of the other 21, which is to forgive.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: That idea of forgiveness. And you’re covering kind of two sides of this, and I’d like to get your response on both, the person that is… Maybe the parent watching or listening right now, who’s saying, “You know, I’ve, I’ve not shown that kind of grace.” And the difficulty of that, you can go to bed at night and feel like, “Okay.” Especially as a Christian parent, you held the line, you did what the Word said to do, except for the fact that you may have missed that opportunity to show what grace is.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: And so for the hard line, rules-oriented, temperament, again, of a parent-

Greg: Which is, which is me.

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: The ability to slow down and think about how do I express grace when really what I wanna deliver is the law.

Greg: Exactly. And I think, you know, it, it really, you know, my wife was right, “Let’s take some time and pray through this.” And it took, you know, it was three days before that two-week deadline was up that God gave us the answer.

John: Hmm.

Greg: So, really wrestling through the holy, with the Holy Spirit on how should I best deal with this.

Jim: Yeah. And out of your context, the general application, the person who says, “I can’t forgive those people for what they did to me.”

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, it wounded me badly.

John: Hmm.

Jim: What’s the advice on that? How do they get their heart in a better place to say, “Hey, Jesus forgives you for everything”?

Greg: Yeah. When I was 12 years old, I found out that I was a one night stand.

John: Hmm.

Greg: And I found out my biological father abandoned me and my mom before I was even born. I was crushed not because of that, because I found out my… I realized my brother and I were half-blood brothers. And that just, for whatever reason, really crushed me. So I, I hated my biological father. And people would ask me, “What are you gonna do if you ever meet your biological father?” I said, “I’m gonna kill him.” I know where grandma keeps the 357 Magnum. He abandoned me and my mom, and I hated him.

John: Hmm.

Greg: I was at a conference with 5,000 teenagers when I was 15 years old. Our Christian school made us go to it. And the speakers spoke on forgiving your biological fathers.

Jim: Huh. (laughs).

John: Oh.

Greg: And he talked about no matter what the whole talk was that, no matter what your dad has done to you, it’s nothing compared to what you did to Christ on the cross with your sin. And he just painted a picture of Christ on the cross and the power of forgiveness, and that when we put our faith in Christ alone, we are completely forgiven for everything. So if Christ forgave us for everything, we can forgive anyone for anything. And I’ll never forget sitting in that auditorium. It was at Denver Coliseum, and I just yelled out, “God, I, I, I forgive my dad.”

John: Hmm.

Greg: And then, “Dad, I forgive you,” and I wept. And all my friends thought I had lost my mind, and I did, because I felt that burden falling off my back.

John: Hmm.

Greg: And I ex- And I had to forgive him a thousand times after that, but that first time was the hardest time.

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: And it was the shadow of the cross that gave me the, the power to be able to forgive.

John: Oh.

Jim: And that’s on that end of it. What about that person that says, “I’m unforgivable”?

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: Your dad’s side of this.

John: Hmm.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: You know, and how, how does a person come to that understanding that, well, you are forgivable and Jesus has done this for you.

Greg: It’s actually, y- y- you know, my m- I’ll put it my mom’s side of that. My mom was a woman that was covered in shame. She had shame-fueled rage. She- five bodybuilding, street-fighting brothers that were all afraid of her, ’cause she wielded a bat when she fought, and I watched her destroy her, um, one of her husband’s cars with a baseball bat when I was five years old. And then, he got out to stop her and she destroyed him. I mean, she was a very violent lady.

John: Hmm.

Greg: It was a shame-fueled rage. And when I was 12, I was equipped to share the gospel and I began to share Christ with my mom. And it took three years and fin… She… You know what she would always say, Jim? She would say, “You don’t know the things I’ve done wrong.”

Jim: Right. That’s exactly the person I’m talking about.

Greg: My, I knew ’em all ’cause my grandma had told me everything.

John: Right.

Greg: You know, I knew she almost aborted me. She drove from Denver to Boston to have an illegal abortion when she found out she was pregnant with me, ’cause she didn’t wanna disappoint her strict Baptist parents-

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: … once again with another bad decision. And while in Boston, stay with my Uncle Tommy and Aunt Carol. They talked her out of it. She came back and she just, when she would look at me, she would burst in tears oftentimes. And I always wondered why till I was 12, and I found out why, found out about my biological father. But I also found out that my mom was filled with, with shame because of the, almost aborting me. And it took three years, and I just shared Christ with her again and again. And finally at the age of 15, I said, “Ma, sit down,” and I laid out the cross one more time. Jesus died for everyone. She goes, “What about my really bad sins?” I go, “They’re all bad. And Jesus said, ‘It is finished.’ Trust in Him.” And she was smoking a cigarette, I’ll never forget. She goes, “I’m in.” And she took another drag. And I said, “Yeah. So where are you gonna go when you die, ma?” She goes, “I’m going to heaven. Cigarettes and all.” I go, “Yeah. Well, heaven’s non-smoking, but yes, you are-

Jim: (laughs).

Greg: … you are, you are going to heaven.” And from that moment on, I’m not saying it was perfect, but she experienced the grace of God. And 20 years ago, she went to be with the Lord, guilt free, sin free, and shame free. It makes me so, so happy.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Absolutely. I could hear it in your voice.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: Greg, this has been great. Let’s come back next time.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Let’s, uh, continue the discussion and talk about these 21 characteristics.

John: Yeah.

Jim: The 21 challenges, uh, to a radical life like Jesus. Um, it’s a great concept and what a, what a great depiction of how the power of God not only works in our own heart, but works in those in our family, our friends, and those around us if we’re willing.

Greg: Amen.

Jim: If we’re willing. Let’s do that. Let’s come back next time. Uh, I can’t imagine you don’t want to get a copy of the book. I’m gonna… Jean and I, I’m gonna take it home tonight and start looking it over with Jean and looking at those challenges. So maybe, you’ll want to do that as well.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Get ahold of us here at Focus and what we often do, if you can just make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. That’s a good way to do it. And, uh, that way, you can participate in helping others find the Lord. I think last year, we had a n- 190,000 people come to Christ through Focus.

Greg: Wow.

Jim: So, man, it’s, it’s a great number, but praise God that the family is a conduit for finding Christ and salvation in Christ.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: If you’re that person and we know that there are people that don’t know the Lord, listening and watching, get ahold of us, call us. We are here for you. We’ll explain in greater detail what it means to become a Christian. We have a great PDF download-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that’s called Coming Home. It’ll give you all the information that-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … you need to know about making a commitment to Christ. What does it mean to open your heart to the Lord? Uh, as Greg was describing earlier on this program.

John: Yeah.

Jim: So, just do that. It, uh, it’ll change your radically.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And it’s all about shalom and peace over chaos.

John: Hmm. Yeah. You can find that peace in Christ. And, uh, if we can help you in that process, it’d be a privilege. And our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Uh, we’ve got a link over to that, uh, little booklet that Jim mentioned, that online article, Coming Home. Uh, we also have a link, uh, so you can find out more about the book, Radical Like Jesus: 21 Challenges to Live a Revolutionary Life. You can donate and request the book when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Greg, thanks again. Let’s come back and, and talk more about the love of the Lord.

Greg: Looking forward to it.

John: Hmm. And I hope you’re looking forward to joining us next time as well. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time, as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Day Two:

Preview

Greg Stier: All of us are at one side of the teeter-totter. One side is relational, the other side is relentless. You know, I’m a relentless side of the teeter-totter. Somebody says it’s hot in here. I say it’s hot in hell too. Lemme tell you about Jesus, you know? Boom. My wife is on the relational side of the teeter-totter, right?

Jim: Okay.

Greg: And, uh, she builds relationships over the course of time. But whatever side of the teeter-totter you’re on is fine as long as you ask the Holy Spirit to sit on the other side.

John Fuller: That’s Greg Stier describing how you can live a revolutionary life of faith by following the extraordinary example of Jesus Christ. Well, welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and we’re really excited to have Greg back with us today.

Jim Daly: We are, John. And last time we had a fascinating conversation with Greg about what it means to live a radical life for God the way Jesus did it. And, you know, we talked about, yeah, but I’m not Jesus. And you can go back and listen to that, get the smartphone app.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Or come to the website, wherever you can get it, uh, we’ll have it there for you.

John: Absolutely worth reviewing.

Jim: And, uh, some of this ground we’ve covered. Unfortunately, it’s so easy for us to get caught up in the cultural norms and expectations of our day. We just get into that rut. I referred to it as the rut last time. Just, you know, we get married, we have the kids, we’re working our careers. We’re going to church on Sunday. We’re loving the Lord, but God’s calling us to something far more challenging is the point. And it’s to serve, to sacrifice, to fight and forgive, and to live by the Holy Spirit’s power. Um, I’m excited to talk to Greg more today.

John: Yeah, there’s, there’s a fullness of the Christian life that we’re touching on and, uh, again, as you said last time, it was great. Uh, today we’re gonna continue discussing some of the concepts that Greg has captured in his book, Radical Like Jesus: 21 Challenges to Live a Revolutionary Life. And you can learn more about Greg and about Dare 2 Share, the ministry that he founded over 30 years ago, and, uh, this book by stopping at our website, that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Greg, welcome back to Focus on the Family.

Greg: Glad to be back.

Jim: Yeah, it’s so good. You know, I was gonna raise this last time, but I, I’ll save it for the opening today. I had lunch with David Horowitz, who’s not a believer, a secular Jewish man, but he went from being a real liberal to a real conservative, especially around the area of education and school vouchers and all that. But it was so funny, we were at lunch and he was saying to me, “Jim, don’t you know, you’re in an alley fight and the opposition, they have switchblades and they’re coming for you.” I said, “David, we’re not stupid. We get that as Christians, but the weapons we bring into the alley are love, joy, peace.” And he goes, “Wow, those are really bad weapons.” But that’s the distinction.

Greg: Yeah.

John: Yeah.

Jim: That’s what we’re talking about. That is how the world fights. And you see that in politics constantly.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: Which is why it’s so rough for Christians in that arena, because we’re bringing an entirely different message.

Greg: Yeah. Romans 1:16, “I’m not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes.” And, you know, I, I think sometimes as Christians, as parents, maybe as grandparents, we underestimate the power of prayer, the power of the gospel, uh, the power of God’s Word.

Jim: Yeah.

Greg: And I think we have to unleash it and through our lives. You know, it, it’s interesting ’cause I… In our last conversation, we talked a, a, a little bit about people. You know, well, I’m not Jesus, you know.

Jim: Sure. (laughs)

Greg: How can I be radical like Jesus? I was a roofer for eight years before I was a preacher.

Jim: I wish I would’ve known that. I just got my roof done.

John: (laughs)

Jim: Man, I would’ve called you.

Greg: See, I’m, I’d be there, I’d be there for you. And four years into my roofing experience, I was miserable. ’cause I knew I was called to be a preacher. And my boss, Kenny Sanchez, pulled me aside. He was a believer. He’s like, “Stier, I can tell you’re depressed. I know you’re called to be a preacher someday. Everybody on the roof knows-

Jim: (laughs).

Greg: … you’re called to be a preacher someday but you’re called to be a roofer today, so roof every house for the glory of God.” And something shifted inside of me. I began to roof every house like it was a roof of Christ Himself. Christ was roofing that roof through me for the glory of the Father. And all of a sudden, everything became worship. It totally changed my perspective. And so, you know, if you’re listening to this and you think, well, I’m just, I’m just a grandma, or I’m just a construction worker, or I’m just a doctor, or I’m just this or that, no, Christ is in you and wants to live through you and sanctify that job that you’re doing for His glory.

Jim: Yeah. And I think right now, uh, when you look at the culture and how we apply our faith in the culture, not just our own hearts and our own homes, but how we’re out in the culture, I, I go back to that comment by David Horowitz because I think, you know, in the church we have to decide what we’re gonna fight for as well. So, when you define radical, which I want you to do in just a moment, it’s in that context of we’re not talking about worldly radicalness. We’re not talking about outta control toxic masculinity. We’re talking about God-defined identity and application, which is love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, mercy, all those fruits of the spirit that, uh, come to bear on a chaotic world. But give us that definition of radical once again.

Greg: Well, I think radical is just, uh… Being radical like Jesus just means, means taking Jesus seriously and literally, and putting into practice what He told us to put into practice through the power of His spirit who dwells inside of us. And when we do that, we become change agents everywhere we go, because it’s Christ through us. And we seize those opportunities. You know, I have, a lot of times people tell me, well, these crazy things happen to you. I go, they happen to you too, but you gotta walk through the door. You know, doors are open all around us, conversations about Christ ready to happen, but we have to walk through the door. So, I, I believe, uh, when we let Christ live through us, we start seeing every conversation, every situation as an opportunity to let Him live His life through us.

Jim: Where is that lack of courage? I mean, and I’ve had it too, when, you know, I’m thinking, okay, is this an opportunity, Lord? And I’m waiting for the Lord to say, yes, Jim, this is the opportunity. (laughs) You know, but how do you process that to say, okay, this will be safe. This will be a good time to say, can I talk to you about Jesus?

Greg: Yeah. I don’t know if there’s a, a perfect, like a… I don’t hear the voice of the Lord saying, go, but I hear the voice of Jesus in Matthew 28 said, “Go and make disciples.” So, I’m always trying to turn every conversation into something. So, I, I use what I call, ask, admire, admit. I ask questions. I get to know a person. I find out where they’re at spiritually. I admire what I can like Paul did in Acts 17 with the men of Mars Hill. And then I admit, the reason I’m a Christian is I’m so desperately sinful I needed Jesus to save me. And I share my testimony and I sh- share the gospel. And if they shut the door, uh, to that conversation, I’m kind. And I try to leave them a, a good taste in their mouth. Uh, and if they, if they continue to wanna have that conversation, I just continue going down the road.

Jim: Last time, you alluded to the fact that you came from a family that was pretty violent, you know?

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: And your mom was violent and her brothers were violent. And you didn’t have that, that fiber, you didn’t see yourself as a fighter.

Greg: No.

Jim: But you ended up in a high school boxing match.

Greg: Oh, my-

Jim: You know, not to embarrass you too much but, uh, I thought I’d bring this up since you wrote about it in the book.

Greg: Yeah. You know, it’s funny because my whole family was worried about me because all of them were street fighters. I mean, the Denver Mafia, the Smaldones, nicknamed my uncles the crazy brothers. So, when the mafia thinks your family’s dysfunctional, that’s not good. (laughing) And I was more like young Sheldon in the hood. I was a terrified, nerdy little kid. I carried a dictionary with me. I just did not have that gene. And all of a sudden, I’m at this Christian school, this Christian school would make you box in gym. And I got slated with this kid named Salazar, who did not like me anyway, uh, he’s 20 pounds heavier than me, and he knew how to box. And I remember, we got, we got the opponents on Monday, and we, we boxed on Friday. And so, on Friday, I’m… All during the week, I said, okay, how do I prepare for this? I should have talked to my uncles. Instead, I rented the movie Rocky, and I watched it every night.

Jim: (laughing)

Greg: And-

Jim: That’ll make you a fighter. (laughs)

Greg: Oh, yeah. I’m figuring, you know, and I’m shadow boxing and all this stuff. And on Friday, I look across the ring and there is Salazar with his head gear. And I all of a sudden realize, I’m gonna get killed. I have no idea what I’m doing. This guy knows how to box. And then something shifted inside of me. I was like, you know what? He can’t box without a head. And if I hit him so hard, his head falls off-

Jim: (laughs)

Greg: … he ain’t gonna be able to hit back. And something happened down deep inside, I found out, I found a family gene.

John: Oh.

Greg: And I went out and I hit him so hard, his head gear turned and he couldn’t see. And I hit him again, and I jumped on top of him. I think I was drooling when the, when (laughs) when the ref pulled-

Jim: Like he was down on the canvas-

Greg: He was on the ground and I wouldn’t stop.

Jim: And you were still hitting him?

John: Wow.

Greg: And, and, and they pulled me off. And then after that, I kept chasing him. I’m like, “Come on,” I used to call him salad bar, “come on, salad bar, I’m gonna get you.” And from that moment on, nobody wanted to box me. Well, here’s the thing that, that I realized is I wasn’t a fighter, but I was. And so many of us don’t feel like fighters. We don’t feel like we can fight, but all of us are called to fight. Against who? Against Satan. And where, where did Jesus do that? In Matthew 4, 40 days in the wilderness, 40 days of fasting, Satan tempts Him with his best, his… You know, think of, you know, Satan come at Him with his best shots, trying to knock Jesus out and make Him unqualified for the cross. What does Jesus do? Three times, it is written, it is written, knock out, blow. It is written.

John: Mm.

Greg: Jab, jab, boom, knocks him out because he had the Word of God memorized. He had memorized scripture. Jesus was not born with a Torah memorized. He had to memorize it just like every other Jewish kid. So, my whole point in the book is, let’s be ready to fight. You may not feel like a fighter, but Satan is coming after you, memorize verses of scripture, whatever you’re tempted with, memorize those verses of scripture and fight back. It is written, boom.

Jim: You know, Greg, sometimes, uh, in our individual walk, or if a person doesn’t know the Lord, this concept in your book about wrestling with God.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: Um, you know, I, I applaud people that shake their fist at the Lord when something really super negative happens in their life, loss of a child. But keep your heart open. God can take that shaking fist, but then you’ve got to trust that He’s gonna speak to your heart at a deeper level and speak to that idea of wrestling with God and how God is all in for that wrestling match.

Greg: You look in the Old Testament, you look at Jacob wrestling all night with the angel of the Lord, which many theologians believe, uh, that was, you know, Christophany, it was Christ, you know, uh. And they’re wrestling all night. And he’s, he’s like, “Let me go.” And, and Jacob says, “I won’t let you go until you bless me.” And, uh, he even touches his hip and wrenches Jacob’s hip, and he still won’t let him go. I won’t let you go until you bless me. And finally, he changes his name. And from that moment on, Jacob walked with a limp, but he walked with a new name, he wrestled with the Lord and came out changed.

John: Mm-hmm. Mm.

Greg: Um, I think of my, uh, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Garden of Gethsemane. I mean, He wrestled for three hours. He was bursting blood vessels in His prayer, looking for a clause in the atonement contract. If there’s any other way (laughs) than dying on the cross, being separated from you, feeling your wrath, you know, make it so. And at the end, He taps out, nevertheless, not my will, but yours. He taps out, He submits to the Father, and He takes on the cross wrestling with the Father. And I think about this, I think of my daughter, Kailey. Uh, I’d go on these trips. I would travel, hey, I’m a traveling evangelist. And I’d come home and my little five-year-old daughter would say, “Daddy, let’s wrestle.” And we would wrestle, you know, and I’d fake, you know, WWE to the ground. She would win. I would win. But she was, you know, she would do this. And when she turned 12, she, I came home from a trip, she’s like, “Dad, let’s wrestle.” And I talked to my wife and I’m like, “Deb, she wants to wrestle at 12.” She goes, it’s just her way of being close to you. She started struggling in middle school with debilitating anxiety, like to the point where she couldn’t sleep. She would come in and she was, you know, tears. We brought her, got her to counseling, went through all the stuff. And, and, uh, and I said, “You know, Kailey, perhaps anxiety is God’s way of saying to you, let’s wrestle.” And she began to write music. And she would pour out her heart to God, uh, and her anxiety in the form of music. And she began to pray. And she’s in the Word. And to this day, I mean, she’s a, she’s a freshman in college. She’s serving the Lord. Not that she never struggles with anxiety ever again, but she has been brought close to the Lord as a result of her anxiety. Instead of pushing her away from Christ, it’s pushed her to Jesus.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: And so, you know I think-

Jim: The wrestling match.

Greg: Yeah. Wrestling match with God.

John: Yeah. Uh, we’re listening to the insights and wisdom and stories of Greg Stier today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Greg has captured many of these stories and insights in a book called Radical Like Jesus: 21 Challenges to Live a Revolutionary Life. And you can, uh, get a copy of that book and be motivated to live this radical life that Greg is calling this to. And you can get this book and, uh, start to really lean into these challenges, uh, when you call 1-800-A-FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Greg, another challenge of the 21 challenges. And we’re not covering ’em all.

John: No.

Jim: So, people can order the book and, you know, get them all, which I would strongly, uh, encourage you to do so. But another one is proclaim that we should be bold in our witness for the gospel. That makes sense. Sometimes, that’s our struggle with the Lord, right? Lord, do you want me to be stronger? How do I be stronger? That’s fair. But you have a remarkable story about a fifth grade student named Vicki in a school. What happened with Vicki that should encourage all of us?

Greg: So, my wife, public school teacher for 30 years, and she could not, you know, jump up on her desk and give the gospel. Uh, she, you know, she could do it once, it’d be her last day of school, right?

John: Right.

Greg: Um, but she knew how to seed conversations. And, uh, so she set up a debate between Vicki and Dan. And Dan was the evolutionist kid that was atheistic. And Vicki went to our church, uh, when I was a pastor. And so, I trained all of our, you know, church from elementary school through, you know, senior citizens, how to share the gospel. So, she stood up and she was gonna debate. They were having debates, and they were debating on creation versus evolution. And Vicki represented creation. And she laid out the, you know, the case for creation. But she’d laid out the gospel in the midst of it. She said, “Hey, God created us to be with Him, and our sins separated us from God. And sins cannot be removed by good deeds. But paying the price for sin, Jesus died and rose again. And everyone who trusts in Him alone is eternal life. And life with Jesus starts now and lasts forever.” That’s actually a gospel acrostic that we train-

Jim: Boom.

Greg: … students in, GOSP. And so, he laid the gospel out.

Well, Dan started making fun of her. The kids started making fun of her. She began to weep. She said to my wife, “Mrs. Stier, can I go in the hallway?” And so, she grabbed her backpack, went in the hallway, my wife thought, well, to collect herself, right? So, she rebuked Dan and she rebuked the kids for making fun of her. She set up the next debate. My wife walked out into the hallway and she was shocked at what she saw. Vicki was on her knees with her Bible open tears streaming down her face, interceding for Dan to come to Christ for all her fellow students to come to Christ. She wasn’t embarrassed. She was broken.

Jim: Mm, for them.

Greg: For them that they did not know Christ. And today, her and her husband, by the way, are missionaries. But I wanna tell you that the power of proclaiming the simple gospel message, you know, I’ve used this illustration and I’ve heard other people use it. If we had the cure to cancer and someone had cancer, we would not hesitate. You know, we would tell them out loud with words, here’s the cure. We would get on the radio. We would travel the world. We would share with strangers and friends and neighbors the good news that we have the cure to cancer. Well, we have the cure to something infinitely worse than cancer. And our friends and our family, and our neighbors and our grandkids and our kids that don’t know Christ are headed somewhere infinitely worse than death. We have to share the cure. And the cure is Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again. And if we place our faith alone in Him alone, we are born again. We’re saved, we’re delivered from hell, the hell that we’re headed to, but also the hell that we’re going through apart from Christ.

John: Hmm.

Jim: That’s so good.

John: Yeah. That is proclaiming the truth of the gospel in simple terms. Greg, talk about how that message, uh, that simple but profound message, resonates with today’s teens. I mean, you’ve got a whole ministry to activate teens to share. Uh, what are you seeing in teens today and what kind of impact is Dare 2 Share having right now?

Greg: Well, we’ve been training teens for 33 years all around the world-

John: Yeah.

Greg: … to share the gospel. And what I’m seeing is a generation that is waiting for a mission and a challenge. You know, we ha- we do a thing called Dare 2 Share life, where it’s a global day of youth evangelism. We had 45,000 teens in 100 countries trained, equipped, and mobilized in one day for the gospel.

John: Wow.

Greg: And I want to see that turned into 450,000 and, you know, 4 million and let’s raise up an army. I think so many times we’re playing so much defense. We’re, we’re, we’re so worried about losing our kids. I’m like, you know what? We need to give our kids three things. Dr. Kara Powell says, every teen needs three things, identity, belonging, and purpose. Well, guess what? You get in the gospel identity as a child of God, belonging with the people of God and purpose, with the mission of God. So, if we help our young people have their identity in Christ, they’re belonging with the church, the people of God, and then put them on mission. You know, like if your teen or your grandkid goes to a public school, they’re a federally funded missionary. (laughing) And if they go to a Christian school, they can rally other Christians to go out and share the gospel. We need to put our young people on mission with the best news ever.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Are you finding that courage in the younger people?

Greg: Oh, my.

Jim: I am.

Greg: Yes. They’re waiting for this. They’re wait, you know, everybody talks about why, you know, teenagers are leaving the church and people, you know, after they graduate from high school, they leave the church, they’ve left the church a lot earlier. They’ve mentally checked out. They stop going when their parents make ’em stop going, with the exception of this. If they go to a youth group that gives them mission, you know, and a purpose, then they stay. Not only do they stay through high school, they stay after they graduate that, because they have a mission. And that mission is to go and make disciples of all nations. Think of Jesus, He was a youth leader. In Matthew 17, Peter, Jesus and the disciples go into Capernaum, but only Peter and Jesus paid the temple tax cross-reference that with Exodus 30:14. The temple tax was for those 20 years old and older. So, all the disciples are there, but only Peter and Jesus pay. So, if I’m reading that right, Jesus was a youth leader with one adult volunteer, right? Peter and one rotten kid named Judas and no budget. With that youth group, He changed the world. So, we need to mobilize our kids, our grandkids, our youth groups to share Christ and change the world.

John: Mm-hmm.

Greg: Stop playing defense. Start playing offense. Let’s mobilize.

Jim: Yeah. Proactively. I love it. The last challenge that we’re gonna cover is Rise. Um, but again, people can get the book for all 21, obviously. But in that context, it’s how we live for Christ and through that resurrection power that Jesus and the Holy Spirit provide us. You have a kind of fascinating analogy that many Christians use jumper cables to spark their faith. Now, that… I’m thinking, okay, how’s Greg gonna get from jumper cables to a spiritual application? But give it to me.

Greg: Well, we’ve seen it at, you know, camp where you go to a conference and everybody gets fired up. They, they put their jumper cables to the pulpit and they get pumped up. But then when they leave, they kinda lose that energy and wind down, and then they need to go back again to church or to that next conference or to that next camp and get fired up again. And then they lose their energy and come back. We need to realize we have the steady current of the spiritual electricity, the Holy Spirit who dwells inside of us, and we need to learn how to plug in. So, be a spirit-charged super saint, right? Instead of a jumper cable Christian.

Jim: Okay.

Greg: Don’t just depend on the meetings and the excitement but plug in every day.

Jim: So, in a Tesla context, be the power unit-

Greg: Exactly.

Jim: … not the, just the recipient of the power.

Greg: That’s it.

Jim: We’ll talk in EV terms.

Greg: There you go.

Jim: Anyway, hey, uh, uh, another incredible story that you share in the book, Radical Like Jesus is very personal, and this is probably where we’ll have to end, but in your own marriage.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: Um, you and Debbie, I think you were fighting, as you described it. And, uh, tell me what was going on there and how does this all apply to our very close relationship and marriage?

Greg: You know, I, I married way outta my league. You know, I was a, I was a trailer kid, apartment kid. My, my wife, uh, you know, came from a, a very godly family. She’s relational, I’m relentless. Um, I’m very consumed. I’m a very focused guy. And I was pastoring a church and doing Dare 2 Share at the same time, so I was gone every weekend. I was gone every night doing church stuff on the way to a Bible study. One night we got into a raging argument. This is, I don’t know, three, four years into our marriage. And I’m like, “Put on a happy face. We gotta go in.” We go in. Thank the Lord, I’m not leading the Bible study, the associate pastor, pastor Green is. And he goes, you know, tonight… And my wife’s still upset, but she’s quiet, right? And, um, he’s like, “Tonight, instead of going through the Bible study, let’s go around the circle and see how we’re all doing.” I’m like, “Oh, no.”

Jim: (laughs) Oh, man.

John: Goodness.

Greg: Finally gets to me, he goes, “Hey Greg, how’s it going?” I go, you know, “Just pray for, pray for my wife and I.” I said, “I’m gone a lot. We’re trying to find that ministry life balance.” But you know, I’m spinning it. And it gets to my wife. And my wife, again, is more of an introvert. He goes, “How’s it going, Debbie?” She goes, “Not good.” And everybody looks up. She go, they’re like, “What?” She goes, “My husband’s gone every weekend. He’s gone every night. He has nothing left for me in the tank. We got in a fight on the way over. I can’t take it. I can’t fake it anymore. My husband’s a jerk.” I’m like, “You wanna do this right now in front of God and everyone?” She goes, “Yeah.” I go, “We’ll let’s get it on.” And so, we start going-

John: Oh, my goodness.

Greg: We start arguing. Everybody thinks it’s a skit. They think it’s some sort of skit.

Jim: (Laughs).

Greg: But it’s not a skit. And Pastor Green, the associate pastor who’d been ticking me off in staff meeting anyway, he goes, “You, you think you’re all that. The president of Dare 2 Share the, you know, pastor of this church. You don’t, you’re nothing if you don’t take care of business at home.” I go, “You may be right, but I’m about to kick your rear.” I stand up, I charge him.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Greg: Everybody-

Jim: (laughs)

Greg: … in the small group is like, whoa, I love this church. It’s like the UFC.

Jim: (laughs)

Greg: And I get right in the middle of the room and the Holy Spirit hits me. It’s like I hit a wall and I fell to the ground. And I knew he was right. And I knew she was right. And I wept for 30 minutes straight, which led to another awkward moment because nobody, how is the pastor?

Jim: Yeah, what do you do with that?

Greg: They’re like, “Do we call a, you know, a priest? What’s happening here?” They all laid hands on me and pray. I’m telling you, it was the most embarrassing, humiliating moment of my life and it saved my marriage ’cause there was no more hiding. And the older couples in the church took my wife and I under their wing. They discipled our marriage and poured back into us. We’ve been married for 34 years now. And, uh, you know, every marriage there’s a Waltz’s and there’s the Tango’s. Ours is a tango. You lead. No, I lead, no kiss me, no dance. You don’t know what’s gonna happen. But we are happily married. And it, it started when I was crushed in the middle of that Bible study circle. And I learned what it means to be radical like Jesus in my own marriage.

Jim: Yeah. That’s amazing.

Greg: Oh, man. It’s amazing now. It was very embarrassing then.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Yeah.

Jim: But how refreshing, uh, to have that moment, even as embarrassing as it was, the fruit from it is-

Greg: Amen.

Jim: … is obvious.

Greg: Amen.

Jim: And I’d love to meet Debbie someday. She sounds like she’s got some spark.

Greg: (laughs) She’s in the studio audience.

Jim: Well, we’ll get her side of the story.

Greg: There you go.

Jim: It, it’s nice that it, it’s in a better place. You know, I, I’ve heard from people when we talk about arguments here, I would on Focus, people respond and say, “Christian couples should not argue.” I, I think actually, no, there should be some arguing. ’cause we’re humans.

Greg: Yeah.

Jim: We’re gonna have disagreement. And if we’re not getting that out on the table, there’s probably something far deeper and more sinister going on if you’re just saying yes to everything and sucking it up, so to speak and just not, not giving your, your spouse honest feedback, even if it hurts.

Greg: I agree. I call it fight through to breakthrough. You know, you fight-

Jim: Fight through to breakthrough.

Greg: Fight through to breakthrough and, and to you work it, really work it out without stuff underneath the surface.

Jim: Well, how about this? Uh, Radical Like Jesus, it’s a marriage book, a parenting book, (laughing) a salvation book. Man, this is great. 21 Challenges to Live a Revolutionary Life. Get a copy. Uh, there’s challenges within each chapter. And like I said, uh, I’m gonna take this home and Jean and I are gonna take a look at these challenges and read those chapters. Something you may wanna do as well. That’s what Greg said, he and Debbie did. And uh, and churches are also using this in their Bible studies, right?

Greg: Yeah. We have churches using it in their Bible studies. Some churches are doing it church-wide. It’s exciting.

Jim: That is great. Greg, thanks so much for being with us and for allowing the Lord to pen this through you. A wonderful resource. And I can’t wait till we’re together next time.

Greg: Thanks for the privilege, Jim and John.

John: Well, get a copy of the book, Radical Like Jesus, when you donate generously to Focus on the Family today, either a monthly gift or one-time pledge. And, uh, we’ll say thanks for being a part of the support team by sending the book to you. You can donate and request the book when you call 800 the letter A and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459 or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: John, let’s also mention Coming Home, a great PDF download that people can access. And it really explains what it means to become a Christian, soup to nuts. And, uh, we’d love to get that in your hands. Absolutely free, of course. We just want to encourage you to explore that relationship with Jesus, which the three of us have encountered. And, uh, as Greg said earlier, it’s like bigger than the cure to cancer. This is the cure for your eternal life. And we want you to at least get a chance to read that and think about it.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you can access that article on our website, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast coming up tomorrow. We’ll hear from Arlene Pellicane offering advice to married couples about ways to better love your spouse.

Arlene Pellicane: I should be grateful. I am grateful, and I forga- James and I talked about it later, and I forgave him. And there is something beautiful and lovely that happens when we can say, “You know what? I make mistakes. You make mistakes. Let’s just move on.”