Preview:

Dr. Heather Holleman: 1 Peter 2:9 is astonishing, the idea that we’re chosen to be part of a royal priesthood. That’s the highest designation. If you’re insecure about your title, when I walk into a faculty meeting and I see myself as a royal priest, ’cause again, it says brothers and sisters-

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: … I’m like, “What does this mean?” And I spent a lot of time thinking a royal priest blesses people. We explain God’s Word.

End of Preview

John Fuller: That’s Dr. Heather Holleman, and she’s with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. If you’ve ever felt overlooked, not good enough, or maybe you’ve wondered, where do I fit in in God’s plan, you’ll wanna lean into today’s conversation. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.

Jim: You know, John, I think most of us, when we look back, we want to be chosen. I feel a little guilty ’cause in elementary school, I was big for my age, et cetera, so I was always the playground, one of the two playground captains.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Holleman: (laughs).

Jim: And we’d pick, you know, “I’ll take Kevin, I’ll take Robert.” And, you know, you’re always looking for the best athletic talent in third grade (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: You were picked first.

Jim: I, I was the picker.

Dr. Holleman: Oh.

Jim: I mean, I was the one, they’d say, well, Jim and Rick Linus, my old nemesis, Rick Linus. And, uh, and he and I would pick the teams. I feel guilty about that now ’cause I hear from so many guys that never got picked or they got picked last.

John: Yeah, we were, I was one of the last guys.

Dr. Holleman: It’s not your wound. Yes, John, we need to-

Jim: And I, I’m serious. My heart goes out-

John: Hmm.

Jim: … to those now men (laughs) who, who got picked last. But there’s something in us. I mean, it doesn’t stop there. Think of friendship groups in junior high-

Dr. Holleman: That’s right.

Jim: … and high school and college. And I think it’s important. And somehow, we gotta translate that into God choosing us-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … especially if you carry those wounds out of childhood, that I wouldn’t be worthy enough. I was never worthy enough.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: Well, today we wanna talk to our special guest, Heather Holleman, about being chosen for Christ. And it’s gonna be a great discussion.

John: Yeah. She’s an associate teaching professor of advanced writing at Penn State, a popular speaker and an author. And, uh, Heather and her husband, Ashley, have two daughters. And, uh, amongst her many books, the one we’re talking about today, Jim, you noted it, it’s called Chosen for Christ: Stepping into the Life You’ve Been Missing. And, uh, we have copies of that here at the ministry.

Jim: You know, John, when you say that, the life you’ve been missing, it almost fits now under that category of FOMO, right? Fear of missing out.

John: Oh (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: Right. Exactly.

Jim: That is part of it, isn’t it?

Dr. Holleman: It is.

Jim: And by the way, Heather, welcome to Focus.

Dr. Holleman: Oh, I’m so glad to be back.

Jim: We’re already into it (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: I’m so glad to be back. I know. It feels like we’re old friends.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: I love to be back on your program. This will be a great conversation.

Jim: Oh, it’s always fun and always good. But in that regard, there is an element of that, right? That’s-

Dr. Holleman: Absolutely.

Jim: That’s the, the pain in the heart that I’m missing out-

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: … ’cause I wasn’t good enough. I didn’t measure up. I, you know, whatever.

Dr. Holleman: That’s right.

Jim: Speak to that, that feeling.

Dr. Holleman: Well, this book really became the second part of my journey. Once I understood I was seated with Christ in the heavenly realms, it really healed me from kind of jealousy and comparison. But what happened is a couple years later, I began to get really nervous about other people that were advancing in their careers, being chosen for teaching awards or chosen for this opportunity and even raising girls, seeing them not chosen for certain things. I really began to grapple with, “Wait, what is this life? What happens… Why am I still dealing with this idea that I’m not chosen for things?” And I remembered God speaking to me through this idea, “Look, I chose you before the creation of the world.” And I thought, “Well, what am I chosen for?” And that’s really-

Jim: Yeah, just think about that for a minute.

Dr. Holleman: Yeah. I’m chosen.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: And that really comes out of just the joy of reading Ephesians, even Ephesi-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Holleman: You know, I focus a lot on Ephesians 2, but in Ephesians 1, I thought, “Well, what are these spiritual blessings? He chose me, I belong to Him. Why doesn’t that seem enough to heal this wound? What am I missing?” And I began to really think about, “Well, God, what am I chosen for?” And that really got me on a journey of thinking first I’m chosen for Christ. I’m chosen for Him. All things were made by Him and for Him. And I thought, “Well, this changes things.”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: So it really began to heal that part of me that needed attention from the world or needed accolades or that sense of being chosen.

Jim: You know, in that context, the, the Scripture’s full of the metaphor of marriage.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: We’re the, the bride.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: He’s the bridegroom. Um, He comes for us.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: And in that context, one of the great, um, challenges in marriage is expectation.

Dr. Holleman: Right (laughs). Right.

Jim: Right?

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: I mean, we all laugh now as married people.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: Um, we create expectations of our spouse. And the analogy is obvious. When you’re talking, what I was thinking about was expectation.

Dr. Holleman: Yeah, what are, what are we doing? Yes.

Jim: Yeah. And we build up what we believe God should do for us or how God should relate to us or what obstacles God should clear for us. There’s a lot of expectation in all of that. And when those expectations aren’t met, whether spiritually or in marriage, we get upset.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: So it is yet a furthering of that journey. And marriage is that metaphor for us to learn how to love somebody when all of our expectations aren’t met.

Dr. Holleman: That’s right.

Jim: I think to be a metaphor in our relationship with Christ.

Dr. Holleman: That’s right. And I think I didn’t know what my expectations should be as I grew in my journey with the Lord. I began to read Scripture and think, “Well, why did you choose me? What’s happening here?” And I thought, “Well, here’s an invitation. I’m chosen to become more like Christ. I’m chosen to complete good works that God’s prepared for me. I’m chosen to worship Him. I’m chosen to live as His treasured possession.” I just began to make a list of every-

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Holleman: … time God says, “This is why you’re in relationship with me.” And it’s amazing. Even to this day, I’m learning more, okay, well, what… When Jesus comes on the scene, He is such a healer, and He says He came to destroy the works of the enemy.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: And I thought, “Well, is that why I’m chosen too?” So completely different from all these accolades people may be thinking. It just kind of reoriented my mindset to think I’m chosen and beloved and I’m His treasured possession and life is gonna start looking really exciting as I live out the good works He’s prepared.

Jim: In addition to expectation, the other is chasing acceptance.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: I gave you the young boys experience on the playground.

Dr. Holleman: Yes (laughs). Yes.

Jim: But I think of the young girl waiting to be asked to the prom.

Dr. Holleman: That’s right.

Jim: Waiting to be asked on a date.

Dr. Holleman: That’s right.

Jim: You know, all of those things. “Am I not good enough?”

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: All that stuff that starts feeding in. I, I think the question is why do we have such deep, is it God-given desire, but such an, like, inside desire to be accepted, to be chosen?

Dr. Holleman: Yes. Well, I think it’s because we’re made for God’s love. We were designed to know Him. I think of Ecclesiastes, you know, that He sort of set eternity in our heart. I love, psychologist Lauren Slater says we ache for something we cannot name. Because even girls that do get invited on the date or they do get the sorority bid or the, the dream husband, life doesn’t seem like they thought it would.

Jim: Huh.

Dr. Holleman: They always say, you know, “There is still this longing in me for something.” And I think it’s that longing to be known by God, to be in His care, to have union with Him. That’s what we’re designed for. And my husband always says too, we were actually designed to consecrate our lives. We were designed to surrender, and that’s how life works best for us. So I think people who, or at least me, I was just longing for that situation that would give me that sense of being chosen when all along it was me just realizing that Jesus is with me. He’s what my heart’s been longing for this whole time.

Jim: You know, here, here’s a common problem that we have as Christians. Um, and you write about it in the book, uh, especially about a season when you felt that, because of the mistakes you made-

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: … um, you’re not worthy to be chosen. Wow, that’s powerful.

Dr. Holleman: This was so difficult for me, and I don’t know why, and I’m jealous of those that were raised in an environment where they knew about assurance of salvation. I didn’t understand really what salvation meant until I was in grad school when I got involved with Campus Crusade for Christ because they were teaching me things that I didn’t know before. So one of the verses I memorized and as I walked around campus was Romans 8, that “There’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” I did not believe that.

Jim: But can I ask you this question?

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: I think it’s because we perceive we have to earn it.

Dr. Holleman: I… Yes.

Jim: It is so core to us.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: And God is saying, “No, no, it’s a free gift.”

Dr. Holleman: It’s a free gift.

Jim: Like what is it? I mean, Christians, we struggle with that.

Dr. Holleman: Well-

Jim: Is it a free gift or do we earn it?

Dr. Holleman: Or am I working? And I don’t think I understood that when you pray to receive Christ and you’re sealed with the Holy Spirit, the book of John says that nothing can snatch you out of His hand. I did not believe that.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Holleman: I believe that when I sinned or I dis-… Like when I thought about God, I thought, “Well, He’s disappointed or He’s holding some kind of standard up.” Even though I knew the Gospel, I was ra- you know, I went to church growing up, I just didn’t understand those scriptures of when you receive Christ, you are forever covered, clothed in Christ’s righteousness.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: And I didn’t realize that you could, at any time, you can approach the throne of grace with confidence because of Jesus. And I just thought that that was conditional somehow.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: So it was a life-changing thing. I did have to repeat to myself Romans 8, there’s no condemnation. It doesn’t matter what you’ve done.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: Past, present or future.

Jim: I think it’s hard for us because as humans in this sinful world, pride is ever present in us.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: Even believers. And I think it’s hard for us to not want to earn a portion of it. Like it’s in our pride.

Dr. Holleman: Yes. Yes.

Jim: If, if I can earn some, then I’ll, I’ll be the A student.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: “I’ll do what you want me to do, Lord.” Which is actually what the Pharisees and the scribes were attempting to do, to-

John: Mm. Yeah.

Jim: … to live the law perfectly.

Dr. Holleman: That’s right.

Jim: So… And Ray Vander Laan, who’s done our That the World May Know.

Dr. Holleman: Yes. Yes.

Jim: Ray would say, “Don’t be fooled. Those were righteous people.” You would have looked at them and gone, “Wow, they really live it.” Right?

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: But they missed it deeper in their heart. And the point of that is, you, you can be outwardly a very perfect person, a very perfect Christian.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: But then that can wrap around your pride pole (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: You get pride (laughs), your pride pole.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: Well, for me, it was almost the opposite. Even as early as last year, I was dealing with just condemning thoughts. I, I think a lot of people have condemning thoughts. I felt guilty that I could have been a better sister or daughter. Like I had… It’s almost like I woke up with a record of wrongs. And I was at the gym and I’ll never forget, I was listening to a Tim Keller sermon-

Jim: Huh.

Dr. Holleman: … where he, you guys have probably heard this. If you haven’t, it’s worth going to listen to. He says you have to think about it like banking. In the early days of banking in New York City, a woman had no money of her own. So when the bill would come, if she was at a restaurant or out buying clothes, the bill would come and she would say, “You’re right. I owe that. Charge it to my husband’s account. He will pay whatever I owe.” If she wasn’t married, the bill would come and she’d say, “I owe that. Charge it to my father’s account. He will pay what I owe.” So in the sermon, he says to his congregants, “When the enemy accuses you and you feel guilty, you say, ‘You’re right. I owe that. Charge it to Jesus’s account. He will pay whatever I owe.'”

Jim: Which is what He said.

Dr. Holleman: Oh, and I just started weeping. I mean, this is, I’m 50 years old.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: And I thought, “Thank you, Lord. I could have messed everything up. It doesn’t matter. Ch-… Whatever I’ve done, charge it to Jesus. He pays whatever I owe.” It just was a fresh kind of revival in my heart about the power of the Gospel.

Jim: Yeah. And for that person who hasn’t made that commitment, that’s what we talk about.

Dr. Holleman: It’s so beautiful.

Jim: That He paid the price. We use, you know, these-

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: … statements and half scripture that we pull out. And people don’t always understand what does that mean?

Dr. Holleman: Well, there’s a debt to-

Jim: He paid the price.

Dr. Holleman: Well, there’s a debt to be paid because of sin.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Holleman: And, and we understand, I mean, was it, I forget what… I was listening to a theologian say, it’s sort of like you’ve offended a great king.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: There’s something to be owed here, and I cannot pay it.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Holleman: I cannot pay it.

Jim: And God is not saying you pay for the food or-

Dr. Holleman: No, no.

Jim: … I’ll pay for the food and you get the tip.

Dr. Holleman: Yes. Right. Right.

Jim: That’s not what the Word is saying. “I got it all.”

Dr. Holleman: “I got it all.” And He-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: He also says that when you receive Christ, you’ve been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: You don’t go back. You can, of course, not keep in step with the Spirit. So I’ve wondered, you know, what happens when I sin? I love Galatians 5, because you still can choose to keep in step with God’s Spirit, but at no point is your relationship in jeopardy. I just had really bad theology up until about my mid 20, you know, 20s, getting-

Jim: That’s pretty much all our problems.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: Bad theology. But I love, um, once you understand, um, that security of your relationship with Christ, so much changes. You’re not working for approval. Um, and then you can really relax and enjoy your relationship with Him.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: And the good gifts He has for you.

John: Yeah. Yeah, that’s so good. I appreciate your insights and it’s a challenge. Uh, it’s a discipline to keep our eyes open-

Dr. Holleman: It is.

John: … to what God’s doing. Our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly is Dr. Heather Holleman, and we’re, uh, talking about some of the content in her book, Chosen for Christ: Stepping into the Life You’ve Been Missing. And, uh, it’s an excellent book. We have copies of it here at the ministry. Uh, stop by our website, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And just continuing on with that theme of children-

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

John: … you had a great story in the book about a very big and boisterous Italian family gathered for a meal.

Dr. Holleman: (laughs) Oh yes. Yes.

John: I loved where that landed.

Dr. Holleman: Did you? This was sweet. I was speaking at a church in New Jersey, and I was invited to dinner at a big Italian New Jersey dinner.

Jim: Love it.

Dr. Holleman: These, this was… It was a huge table. Uh, the father, uh, was this very strong Italian presence, and I’ve never been… And I can say this, my best friends are New Jersey Italians (laughs). You know, it was just such a loud, animated dinner, everyone talking, everyone sharing stories. And I noticed the littlest daughter, she must have been seven years old, she just looked so discouraged. And I saw her get up from the table and she goes over to her father and she says, “Daddy, I can’t find my space. No one can hear me. I can’t find my space to talk.” And the father lifts his hand up and silences the whole table, and he says, “This little one has something to say.”

Jim: Uh-huh.

Dr. Holleman: And it was about a loose tooth.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: It was so sweet. But what I loved about that is-

Jim: Mm.

Dr. Holleman: … so many people, they think, “I don’t know what my message is. I don’t have anything to say. There’s so much clamoring. No one’s… I, I have no voice. There’s nothing here.” And to just see that father say, “I’ve got this. If you have something to say, come to me. I will make space for you.”

Jim: Yeah.

John: Mm.

Dr. Holleman: It was so sweet. And I think I needed to see the power of a strong father who just controlled that conversation.

Jim: Right, the imagery of it.

Dr. Holleman: And, and the strength of him compared to this tiny little girl that-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: … said, “Daddy, I can’t find my space here.”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: And you know, I know a lot of people who wanna have an impact in the world. They wanna have a ministry. They wanna find their space and their voice. And so many times, if you think you’re seated with Christ, just remember the end of Ephesians 2:10. He has good works prepared in advance for you to do. He will make space for what He has planned for you in His kingdom.

Jim: That’s so good. Heather, uh, there’s another maybe more adult translation of this, uh, about resting in Him.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: You, you got sick and, uh, you had to take rest to recover. Most people would see that as God failing me.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: How did you translate that moment of, of illness into God’s blessing of rest?

Dr. Holleman: Well, I had to cancel a speaking event, which you know is a big deal.

Jim: That’s tough. It’s a big deal.

Dr. Holleman: And I’m also suffering in the emergency… This was an emergency kidney stone surgery. It happened once, but not-

Jim: Yee.

Dr. Holleman: Not once, but twice.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: So everyone drink your water.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: Um, and I remember thinking, “God, I’m sitting here and I can’t do anything and I’m not productive and nothing’s happening.” And it was one of the best seasons of blessing because that was when Ash and I first connected with our life group at church and they all brought food and they all came to talk to me. And it was just such a sweet time of… I mean, I value productivity and efficiency, and I think in God’s economy and His kingdom, I think when you look at John 15, if you abide in Him, you will bear the fruit that He’s ordained for your life. And you have to trust Him for just seasons of profound rest where it doesn’t seem like anything’s happening. Sort of like that gardening imagery. It, you know, berry trees.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Holleman: They’re not gonna produce fruit the first year or the second year or the third… No, third year in Pennsylvania-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: … you might get berries, but you’re supposed to remove any sign of visible fruit. And do you know why?

Jim: Uh-uh.

Dr. Holleman: When you prune your berry trees and remove any sign of visible fruit those first two years, it’s so the tree directs all of the nutrients to create an indestructible root system.

Jim: Oh.

Dr. Holleman: So some-

Jim: So you put it under stress.

Dr. Holleman: Yes. So sometimes when I’m speaking to women, I can, you know, at women’s events, I’ll say, you know, “This may not be your year.”

Jim: Mm.

Dr. Holleman: “Next year may not be your year but keep abiding. Keep building that root system going deep in the Lord. And year three, you don’t know what’s gonna happen.” But sometimes life doesn’t look very productive, but it’s ’cause you’re abiding in Him, you’re learning the Word, you’re being prepared for something. And always remember, when you read John 15, it’s inevitable, you will bear fruit. That is what God is doing.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: And Ephesians 2 is just so life changing. He has good works that you’ll complete as you abide in Him.

Jim: Yeah, that’s so good.

Dr. Holleman: And you don’t need to compare them or worry about them.

Jim: We have good friends, Larry and Janice, out in California. They have pistachio trees.

Dr. Holleman: Oh, I love pistachio.

Jim: It takes like seven or eight years.

Dr. Holleman: Oh, it does.

Jim: For those trees to produce fruit-

Dr. Holleman: I’ve learned so much about the patience and, and uh-

Jim: … or nuts. Yeah. It’s a great analogy. And you know-

Dr. Holleman: … pesticides.

Jim: … like Paul says, you-

Dr. Holleman: Yeah (laughs).

Jim: … can look at God’s nature and know there is a God.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: All these analogies we’re talking about.

Dr. Holleman: All these analogies.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Um, one thing you said there I really wanna jump on because one of the things I see in research, for the Christian community particularly, whether we’re looking at divorce statistics or anything, all of life is built around that depth of commitment with the Lord.

Dr. Holleman: It… Yes.

Jim: What you just said there a moment ago.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: Abide in Him, or, “Abide in me” as He says. There’s the, the difference between those that are living fullness in Christ versus those that are experiencing difficulty. I mean, significant, divorce within their marriage. And I don’t mean to simplify it down to that, but what I’m saying is when there is high commitment, there typically is the flow of blessing from the Lord. Um, and I’m not talking about prosperity kind of thing.

Dr. Holleman: Right.

Jim: I’m just saying it doesn’t mean you’re not gonna have hard circumstances, but you’re in such a place that your maturity in Christ kind of flows over your temporary circumstances in this life.

Dr. Holleman: No, that’s right. That’s right.

Jim: And those marriages stay together and those kids come around, not formulaically, but there’s just something about the difference between Christian light and Christian deep.

Dr. Holleman: I think so. I mean, Ash and I have been married 25 years, and the best part of our day is getting coffee in the morning and having that extended time with the Lord. And then we can come back together, talk about what God’s been teaching us. And then at night, praying together and talking about what the Holy Spirit’s doing. It changes everything about your marriage. It’s our… It’s my favorite part of our marriage.

Jim: Jean and I’s marriage-

Dr. Holleman: Just… Right?

Jim: … is doing far better when we do that.

Dr. Holleman: And I know people think, “Oh, is that legalistic?” Well, I have to sort of get my mind right every morning. I ask the Lord, “Keep me in step with your Spirit.” And I even can ask Him, “How do you want me to bless Ash today?”

Jim: Yeah. It’s so good.

Dr. Holleman: Yeah.

Jim: And the joy of the Lord’s all over you. Hey, one of my favorite stories in the book was about a pumpkin patch.

Dr. Holleman: Oh.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: I love this.

Jim: And, and just this unexpected harvest became a picture of the way God can redeem the messes and disappointments and maybe even the garbage in our lives.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: How did a pumpkin patch deliver all of that?

Dr. Holleman: Well, I always share this when I’m speaking, um, at women’s retreats and I have pictures. We have a compost pile and-

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: … one year this vine came out of it that overtook the entire hou- you know, the whole backyard. And I have pictures of this, and I called in my friends. I said, “I don’t understand. What is this? Is it squash? Is it watermelon?” And the horticultural professor, he just said this, “What did you throw in your compost pile?”

Jim: Oh my.

Dr. Holleman: And I said, “Nothing. I don’t… I throw eggshells and coffee grounds. I did not put anything in there.” And he said, “Are you sure?” And this was in July. And I said, “Well, maybe in October we had carved a pumpkin or something.” And I said, “But I promise you, we got all those seeds and I roasted them there. I didn’t put any seeds in there.” And this is what he said to me, “It just takes one seed.”

Jim: Huh.

John: Mm.

Dr. Holleman: One pumpkin seed. Our backyard became a pumpkin patch.

Jim: (laughs).

Dr. Holleman: Neighborhood children were coming to, you know-

Jim: Freakishly big.

Dr. Holleman: Yeah. And it’s this idea of Galatians that when you sow to please the Spirit. And what matters about the compost pile, I was speaking in Pittsburgh and a lot of the women who came were coming out of recovery, heroin or they’ve been on the streets.

Jim: Wow.

Dr. Holleman: And I said, “A compost pile is the garbage of your life.”

Jim: Mm.

Dr. Holleman: And I brought some friends over who were really struggling. I said, “I want you to look at this. When you sow to please the Spirit, it says you’re gonna have a harvest of righteousness. Something’s gonna happen when you invite the Holy Spirit into your life. It doesn’t matter what the garbage is, and it just takes one seed.”

Jim: Mm.

Dr. Holleman: And when you turn to Him even a little, God’s power comes in. And they loved it. We cried about the hard things they were going through. So my pumpkin patch has become a big part of, you know, seeing those pumpkins.

Jim: It’s a beautiful analogy.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: You know, right at the end here, that person that feels like, you know, “I’ve made a commitment to Christ, salvation is sure.”

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: “I don’t feel chosen.”

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: “I don’t feel, you know, protected perhaps, whatever, from the Lord.” What do you say to them to move them into a deeper understanding of who they are in Christ?

Dr. Holleman: Well, I would read John 15, what we talked about. I would also focus maybe on Galatians now that I’ve, now that we’ve talked about it, and just fill your mind with God’s Word and this idea of what’s happened to you now that you’re in Christ-

Jim: Mm.

Dr. Holleman: … and what the fruit of the Spirit looks like. And ask every day, “God, would you control and direct my life?”

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: “Keep me in step with your spirit,” and you’ll begin to experience what Paul calls the fruit of the Spirit. I love that. So again, like I said in other broadcasts, my answer to everything is read God’s Word (laughs).

Jim: (laughs) Yeah. It’s pretty good.

Dr. Holleman: Let it, let it transform your mind.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: So-

Jim: You know, it’s so kind of the Lord to write that down.

Dr. Holleman: The Word, I know. Yes.

Jim: Well, in Galatians. If you’re in me-

Dr. Holleman: I love Galatians.

Jim: … here is what you will be expressing.

Dr. Holleman: And the fruit of the flesh.

Jim: Love and joy. And 5:19, the fruit of the enemy.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: Which-

Dr. Holleman: And it’s predictable.

Jim: Which actually, I think many of us in the church do lean into some of that ugly fruit-

Dr. Holleman: Well, it’s mostly-

Jim: … like dissension, disunity, lies.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: We shouldn’t be.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: But, you know, again, we’re living in the-

Dr. Holleman: Selfish ambition.

Jim: … the, the froglet.

Dr. Holleman: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: Fits of rage. Um-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Holleman: Early in therapy, we made a list of, uh, predictable evidence of the flesh because he said it’s really important to think about what is the fruit of the Spirit to know you’re operating out of that. It was really life changing for me to study Galatians 5.

Jim: Yeah. And I think right here at the end, it, be serious about it. God took the time to have Paul or other writers of the New Testament put it down.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: He listed it for us.

Dr. Holleman: Yes.

Jim: “This is what you will behave like if you’re in me.”

Dr. Holleman: This is what you’ll experience-

Jim: This is it.

Dr. Holleman: … love, joy, peace, patience.

Jim: And if it’s not there, we’re cautioned to think about why it’s not there.

Dr. Holleman: Exactly.

Jim: And I think that’s wonderful. Heather-

Dr. Holleman: It’s a mystery.

Jim: This has been so good. Once again, I love, uh… You, you quote Tim Keller. I, I knew Tim Keller. I would c- have considered him a friend.

Dr. Holleman: Oh.

Jim: And we interviewed, uh, many times together. I think I was able to get the last interview he did on the river right outside his home.

Dr. Holleman: Oh.

Jim: And it was very special. But you know-

Dr. Holleman: That sermon.

Jim: You point to him as deep, a deep thinker and he was.

Dr. Holleman: He helped me.

Jim: But you are like that as well.

Dr. Holleman: Oh, that means so much.

Jim: Very much so.

Dr. Holleman: By the way, I don’t know if you have the show notes to this, but that sermon is called The Advocate, and it’s life changing. If you’re new to the faith or struggling with condemnation, that’s a great sermon to listen to.

Jim: Yeah, it’s so good. So thank you for being with us.

Dr. Holleman: Oh, well, this is a joy. Thank you for having me.

Jim: Mm. Well, let me turn to you, our listener. Focus on the Family is here to help you and your family thrive in Christ. That’s our mission. We have a whole library of content for you, articles, programs like this one, video series, you name it, all to help strengthen your faith and to encourage you in your relationship with Jesus.

A great place to start is signing up for the Holleman Audio Collection. This is a free download with all of Heather’s interviews, including some with her husband, Ashley.

We also have Heather Holleman’s book, Chosen for Christ: Stepping into the Life You’ve Been Missing. It’s an encouraging read that helps you anchor your identity in Christ so you can live with greater purpose, peace, and security no matter your circumstances. And when you give a gift of any amount, we’ll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for supporting the ministry of Focus on the Family. Those gifts make an impact.

In fact, a listener named Sue Beth wrote to share this with us. “Thank you, Focus on the Family, for the rich and encouraging content you provide through your broadcast. They’ve been a real blessing in my life, and I frequently share episodes with others so they can be encouraged too. I’m also so grateful for your family help specialists who are always kind, caring, and helpful.” (laughs).

John: Well, that’s an energizing note, isn’t it?

Jim: It really is. And I love that Sue Beth isn’t just receiving encouragement, she’s sharing it with others. Everybody can do that. That’s how the impact of this ministry continues to grow.

And as we approach the end of the year, I want to invite you to be part of that work because this isn’t simply about raising money. It’s about doing ministry together. It’s about delivering hope and joy to families who are hurting, offering biblical encouragement to people who feel overwhelmed, and helping marriages and families just like yours to grow in Christ. And when you give, you’re joining us in that mission. You’re helping us reach more people like Sue Beth and countless others who may be searching for hope right now. So prayerfully consider partnering with Focus on the Family today. Together, we can share the hope of Jesus Christ with families who need it most.

John: And right now, your year-end gift will be doubled dollar for dollar through a special match opportunity. God will use your gift to make twice the impact on families. So donate today and get your copy of the book Chosen for Christ and learn more about the Holleman Audio Collection when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.