Teaser:

Jen Babakhan: But when that timeframe becomes so imminent, you suddenly have this perspective of none of the things that you thought matter matter. They, they, they don’t matter anymore.

End of Teaser

John Fuller: That’s Jen Babakhan, and she’s describing some unique perspectives there about priorities and, uh, what to do when someone you love has a terminal illness. Uh, Jen is back with us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller and thank you for joining us.

Jim Daly: John, we had a powerful conversation last time with Jen, and a topic that, you know, we do, I think we’ve done 4,000 programs-

John: Mm-hmm. We have.

Jim: … right around there. We don’t do any of these (laughs) when we talk about, uh, you know, when a loved one is on the brink of death, wh- how do we process that? What’s our grief process? How do we approach it, uh, as believers in Jesus? And then how do we communicate that to our children or grandchildren-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … whatever it might be? Excellent content for all of us to think about and prepare for. It’s a good thing. And hopefully we as Christians do it differently than the world. I, my heart breaks for the world, if you think about it, where they don’t have a framework for what to believe in-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that this is it. I mean, that’s got to feel very empty and a good reason for us to pray for an unbelieving world that they might embrace Christ.

You know, in John 11:25-26, it says, “Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live. And everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.” That’s our hope and our trust.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that gives us the bedrock for our discussion today.

John: Yeah. And, uh, we have so many resources here to help you, um, with, uh, this kind of a journey, call us, uh, 800-A-FAMILY to schedule a time with one of our counselors. Um, we’d be happy to offer a free over-the-phone consultation with you.

Our guest, as I said, is Jen Babakhan, and, uh, she is an author and a speaker, and she’s written, uh, her own personal journey through this kind of a loss. And she offers great insight in the book, Disrupted: Finding Peace with a Parent’s Terminal Illness. And you can learn more about Jen and, uh, her various, uh, activities and resources and this great book on our website.

Jim: Jen, welcome back.

Jen: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

Jim: Yeah. It’s, you know, it’s good. It is a good thing to talk about. It’s a difficult thing to talk about, but we as Christians should not shrink back from talking about difficult things, right? That’s part of the journey of life. You know, so often we think as Christians that being on the mountaintop is the goal, especially in the West, we’re so goal-oriented that, you know, if we just remove all the discomfort of life, then we’re blessed and we can stay on the mountaintop. But my experience has been, you want a taste of the Lord-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … go to the valley.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That’s where you’re gonna find Him in, in fullness. And it’s in our brokenness that we feel the closest to Him, I believe. Even that scripture that says He’s close to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit. So when you enter into an event like the death of a spouse or death-

Jen: Mm.

Jim: … of a parent or grandparent, that is a broken place. I mean, it, it puts everything right in front of you.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: The things you didn’t say, the things you wish you said, the fight that you had with that loved one, and you regret having it. And you could start to recriminate all of that and get into a bad place.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Your mom was diagnosed initially with terminal cancer with six to eight weeks to live. We covered that last time. And if you missed it, go back and listen to it, get the app or do what you can-

John: Yeah.

Jim: … because it was well worth to listen to. But in that context, she ended up living almost three years. And in anticipating that, you described in the book living many little deaths.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Describe that.

Jen: Yeah. So, you know, I think that for my family, once that kind of bomb drops, um, along the way, you, you already sort of start losing things. So while your parent is still living, you lose a sense of normalcy, um, in the sense that, you know, um, your parent is now undergoing treatment, or you just aren’t viewing life the same way anymore.

Um, you know, it’s impacting your daily life. I remember with my boys, I would be, you know, absent-mindedly making lunch or dinner or whatever and, um, because my mind was on my mom and what was coming up. And so there’s that death of normalcy.

Um, you know, my parents, my father had retired. They were both retired at the time, uh, just recently. And so we always envisioned for them a time of traveling and, and joy and fun and all of that. And instead, they were tied down to weekly chemotherapy and radiation treatments.

Um, and so, you know, those sorts of deaths along the way just kind of remind you that, um, that there is loss and there is grief in this process before your loved one actually passes. And I don’t know if that’s something that, um, people that haven’t experienced this, um, understand very well. But for those families that are walking through it, that journey along the way, even if their, you know, parent is going through successful treatment, it’s a sacrifice and it’s a change for everyone.

Jim: Oh, it, it definitely is.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You also mentioned in the book about finding peace. You know, sometimes this can be a frustrating pursuit.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And you can tell the difference. I mean, that’s something that I would say, not just in the case of losing a parent-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … uh, or a parent with terminal illness, but every aspect of life. And, you know, I think learning those lessons as a boy in some ways that I was blessed to have learned-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I find it when I’m talking to somebody about the peace of God, you can see the frustration for them, that it’s not within reach for them.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And there’s no way for me to construct a ladder.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s about you and God. It’s not about-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … the person talking to you. All you know is that it’s a better place to be-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … when you can find the peace of God. You mentioned that in the context of Romans 12:18. Wh- what’s that verse? What did it mean to you? And how did you apply it to your mom?

Jen: Right. So, you know, Paul tells us, you know, “As far as it depends on you, live-”

Jim: There you go.

Jen: As pa- as, as-

Jim: That’s the latter part.

Jen: Yeah. “As far as it depends on you, live peaceably with everyone.”

Jim: Yeah.

Jen: And so for me, that was twofold. That was living at peace with my mom and really finding peace in our relationship and knowing that while it wasn’t perfect, it was ours and making the most of the time that we had left. And it was in those final years that I felt like I had the relationship with her that I had always dreamed that I would have.

And so finding that peace, both with your parent or your loved one, but then finding that peace with God, uh, sometimes finding that peace with God is the harder piece of the puzzle because He’s in charge of everything. So why is He allowing this to happen?

And I, I don’t have the perfect answer for that, but I think that as He is leading the ill person on their own journey back home to Him, He is using that to transform your own life and the lives of everyone that love that person. Because I know I can say that I am not who I was prior to her diagnosis.

Um, and I think my family would say the same, that this journey that we have walked together and with God, um, has been one of truth and of peace. And coming to that place of, of trust, that-

Jim: Mm.

Jen: … even in these darkest moments, He’s still going to bring good from it. It’s not going to feel good, but He’s going to bring good from it.

Jim: You know, a- another component, and we could spend a little time here, was this idea of, in essence, memorializing that person before they die.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And we had a great example here at Focus. Kurt Leander, who works on the team, came up with the idea of honoring Peb Jackson, who worked here-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … for many years. He went on to work for Young Life and then Rick Warren. But he, he really, uh, contributed to this ministry. And we used to refer to Dr. Dobson and Peb Jackson as brothers of a different mother.

John: (laughs)

Jim: They just connected well and-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and really complimented each other. And, and, uh, and so we threw him a 75th birthday party. He was already diagnosed-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … with, uh, cancer.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And we knew that timeline was ticking.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But we did that party. We had 500 people show up, uh, including Rick Warren and Denny Rydberg and m- many other Christians.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And it was just amazing to see-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … people love on him. And he felt it.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: He was surprised. He didn’t know ahead of time. He walked into the ballroom and just, wow. Now that’s a big party.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But you can do so many things in so many different ways to let your diagnosed, uh, loved one know that they are loved and appreciated before they pass away. Speak to that.

Jen: What we did for my mom, we did a couple of things. So we wanted my boys to have memory books of her voice and her reading stories to them. And so we recorded those and that was something that, um, that we cherish and, and we’re so glad that we did. Um, but one of the other things that we did, and this was right after her diagnosis, it was her, um, 64th birthday, um, we decided to get her a puppy.

Jim: Oh, (laughs) man.

Jen: And, and that was maybe something that people wouldn’t automatically assume would be what you would get someone that’s dying, but we knew that it would bring joy-

Jim: Yeah.

Jen: … into the scenario. And when we gave her that puppy in a, a birthday gift bag, we were at the beach. We were spending a lovely day on the beach. She had no idea what was happening. And so when she opened up that gift bag and saw this little two-pound ball of fluff, it, um …

Jim: Uh-huh.

Jen: I mean, it just was a moment that I’ll cherish forever.

Jim: Brightened her day.

Jen: And it did. It did. And, and that dog, of course, now is with my dad providing comfort and, um-

Jim: Mm.

Jen: … and joy. And it was just one of those times in life where holding that sorrow and that joy together at the same time, she was going to go get her chemotherapy port that next Monday, and this was a Saturday. And even in the midst of that-

Jim: Mm.

Jen: We were celebrating her birthday, celebrating her life, um, and laughing and experiencing joy. So I think the more you can do that with someone that’s in the midst of a hard time and provide opportunities for laughter, the better it is for everyone.

Jim: You know, e- expanding on that a little bit, a good friend of mine, Randy, who’s a donor to Focus as well. So Randy, if you’re listening, this is for you. But he mentioned to me that it’s wise to, you know, take your phone.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Do a video for your spouse.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Do a video for your kids. Do a video for each of your kids.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Do a video for each of your grandkids if you have grandchildren. And that, I haven’t done that yet-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but I, I want to.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I need to. I wanna put that away and park it in the cloud somewhere-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So that once I’m gone, Trent can download that video for him and hear what I have to say for him. And, but thinking through that thing-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … uh, and thinking through that activity is really a good thing. Your children, your spouse, they’ll be blessed.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Think about it. You can recognize it and put your own touch to it. I’m sure mine would be humorous, but, um, you know, just such a touch and a, a piece of you goes-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … with that and a blessing to your family members.

Jen: Absolutely. My mom wrote each of us letters, and I have reread it, uh, during my most difficult times. Um, and one of the things she said is that “I will be waiting at the gates with arms wide open, um, when it’s your turn to come.” And I just think, as you said, the gift of having that is priceless. And for those of us that aren’t looking at a finite timeline, you know, in the next six to eight weeks, it’s still something that, that we should consider doing, um, because we don’t know when the end will be for us. It, it has meant so much to me and my brother and, um, and my dad as well to have those.

Jim: Well, and you keep coming back to that. But in so many ways, that becomes one of your most cherished possessions, right?

Jen: Oh, absolutely.

Jim: That would-

John: Mm.

Jim: Uh, you know, I can’t remember my mom’s voice-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … as an example.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, I lost that memory years ago.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I just couldn’t remember her voice. And that bothers me.

Jen: Yeah.

Jim: You know? I remember the actions and the great-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … sense of humor she had-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but can’t remember that voice. Going into hospice-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … uh, I’ve experienced that with Jean’s mom.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And it was hard.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And it is a, there’s a finality to it that really-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … takes your breath away.

Jen: Right.

Jim: You know, they’re in that bed or whatever situation they’re in. And, uh, it just seems like you know they’re not gonna get up from that bed. This is it.

Jen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jim: Whether it’s a week, a month, whatever-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … it ends up being. Describe hospice and what it connotated to you, what it meant to you.

Jen: Sure. So by the time mom had decided that she was not going to do any kind of therapy anymore, um, I think I, I knew internally that we were at that place, that she was tired. It was, um, she ended up with a heart condition that ordinarily they would operate on, but the doctor said with her being so far down the cancer path, it just wasn’t worth it.

And so hospice for me, um, was a difficult thing to swallow, but also one that I knew was inevitable. Um, and in a sense, because I had been dreading it for so long, it was a little bit of a relief, I think, for me to be-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jen: … like, “Okay, we’re in this place now and we’re going to face it head on, whatever this looks like.” Um, and you know, the hospice nurses are angels. They are, uh-

Jim: They are.

Jen: … angels on earth. They are just wonderful. And, and they really helped us to make it as, um, as easy of a process as, as that kind of thing can be.

John: Well, our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly is Jen Babakhan. And, uh, she’s written a terrific book which captures her story and, uh, what you’re hearing now, these, uh, wisdom, uh, perspectives. It’s called Disrupted: Finding Peace with a Parent’s Terminal Illness. Uh, it’s a terrific resource. Get a copy from us here at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Uh, and Jen, I appreciate you’re, um, letting us into that room, uh, with hospice. That can be a short time or a long time. Uh, my mother-in-law lived with us, and she was on hospice for the last few months. Describe, um, that journey of, of holding on and then at some point, you have to let go. I, I think it’s probably different for everyone, but what was that like for you?

Jen: Yeah. You know, by the time we were in hospice, she was conscious some of the time, um, unconscious for some of the time as well. But there was a day that she regained full consciousness.

John: Mm.

Jen: And she looked at each of us, and I’ll never forget the look on her face. It was just pure peace.

Jim: Mm.

Jen: Just pure peace. And she went around and she looked at each and every single one of us in the eye and said, “I love you.” And we said, “We love you, you know, too.” And, and she said, “You have to let me go.”

John: Mm.

Jen: And it was in that moment where I realized she was holding on for us.

Jim: Mm.

Jen: And at the same time, you know, we told her, of course, uh, I remember telling her, “Mom, you can run to be with Jesus anytime you need to. You’re free to go.” But I think she knew in the back of her mind that we were all just so desperate to hold on for any time, uh, that we had left. And, um, it wasn’t until, um, I had… At this point, she was not conscious, but they say the last thing to go is hearing. And the hospice nurse had come and, and I had seen her suffering. You know, everyone asks, “Is it a peaceful death? Was it a peaceful death?” And I always say death is a lot like birth. It’s rarely peaceful.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jen: Um, you know, it’s a, it’s a, a struggle and the body knows what it needs to do in both birth and death, and it does those things. But I asked the nurse, “How much longer do you think that she has?” And she said, “Well, it, it could be a week. It could be longer.” And, and I had just watched my mom just, her body just work so hard to keep her alive. And I said, “I sure hope for her sake it’s not that long.” I said, “I never thought I’d get to this point, but I, I sure hope it’s not.” And my mom died four hours later-

Jim: Wow.

Jen: With all of us around the bedside.

Jim: Yeah.

Jen: And I think, I truly believe that her hearing me say that, that I hoped it wasn’t that long, that she knew-

Jim: Yeah.

Jen: … I had come to that place of peace.

Jim: Right.

Jen: And that I had fully let her go. Because at the end of it, it’s just love. You just want what’s best for them. And that selfishness to hold on fades away because you know that, um, in some sense, they’re always going to be with you, but you don’t want them to stay if they’re in, in that situation.

Jim: Yeah. You speak about surrendering to grief. I wanted it to set in because I think some people go, “What?”

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: “I don’t surrender to nothing.”

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But surrendering to grief, why is that important?

Jen: Because it’s gonna have its way with you whether you let it or not. And, and that was the biggest lesson for me, I think, was to realize that it was going to do what it wanted to do, whether I provided it space or not.

Jim: Ah.

Jen: So, you know, those early days of grief of, um, just having those waves come over you and, and crying and all of that, that’s expected. Everyone expects that. But for me anyway, it was a year or two out, three years out, when it, a t- a trigger would happen, something would, um, spark a memory and I would just be laid out, just in tears, unable to pull myself together.

And I realized there’s really no other way to do the grief thing than just surrender and let it do what it needs to do. Because as much as we fight against it and think, “I’m just gonna handle it. I’m gonna handle it, and I’m gonna get through it, and it’s gonna be fine.” And you try to strong arm your way through it, that’s not actually doing the work that God intended grief to do within you.

I think grief is such a softening process where God, um, has us become so vulnerable. And it’s in that vulnerability that we can feel His strength, and we can feel His presence and that sense of peace. And I just don’t think there’s another way to get there.

Jim: Yeah. With people’s good intentions, we gotta hit this one because it, it happens, you know, and people say things to try to make you feel better and they actually have the exact opposite impact. What are some of those coaching tips you might give to another family member, a distant family member, or maybe just a friend who’s trying to help their friend go through something and you say things like, “It’ll be all right.”

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Or, you know, “Time will heal your wound.”

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Or whatever the cliche might be, what are the good things to say? And then what are those things you might not wanna say?

Jen: Right. So I think what’s really unfortunately common is that when someone tells someone else that their loved one has a diagnosis or whatever, they will either… I’ll start with the bad first. They will either say, um, that… They’ll tell you all of the people they know that have died of that condition, and I don’t know why, but it’s something that they do. They just-

Jim: Just a switch that goes.

Jen: They just wanna share that, “Oh, I know so-and-so, and they passed away from this.” Or they’ll tell you about the brand new, um, you know, natural treatment that they are absolutely sure will help heal your parent or your loved one, and they don’t really need what the doctor is saying they need or whatever. And they think that they’re being helpful. But on the other side of that, as the person that is loving someone that’s going through it, it just provides more stress and more strain. Those are things that we probably already know about. I know I researched every-

Jim: Yeah.

Jen: … natural treatment, every possible thing that would help my mom. Um, and so what I found to be the most helpful is just being there. And I found the most comfort from those who had walked this journey already themselves, because they knew, um, what it was like in those quiet moments when you, um, don’t have someone sitting with you and you’re just sitting at home going, “How is this going to go? And what is this going to look like?”

So I would just tell those that are kind of on the periphery that your presence is really all that’s needed. Or just a text to say that you’re thinking of them or that you’re praying for them. Because ultimately, hearing… For me, it’s always been hearing that someone has thought about me randomly and saying a prayer for me-

Jim: Yeah.

Jen: … or my mom or my family, that has meant the most, and I think is the most beneficial.

Jim: Yeah. And that’s a good thing. I normally will PS a letter to someone who’s lost a loved one to say words are inadequate.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So I’m praying for simply God’s peace to be with you.

Jen: Yes.

Jim: It’s, it’s kind of the best that I can-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … suggest for them. Um, last time you mentioned your children, we kind of started in that area and your, your boys were six and three when your grandmother, when their grandmother-

Jen: Mm.

Jim: … your mom got that diagnosis. How old are they today and how have they continued to process that? And then how about you and your husband?

Jen: Yeah. So my boys are now 13 and 10, almost 11. Um, and I think it, they’ve processed it, um, as well as can be expected. And so we now talk about my mom all the time and laugh and talk about what she would say or what she would do. Um, and, and there’s those hard times too where, you know, especially for my younger son, um, he, he loves playing baseball and he just says, “Mom, I really wish grandma could have been at one of my games.”

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jen: You know? And that’s the, that’s the hard thing that, that we just sit with and, “Yeah, that, that is hard. And, and I wish she was here too for that, you know?” Um, so they’ve done, they’ve done well in, in processing it. And, um, and my older son still has very vibrant memories of my mom, and so he, you know, talks about those often and how much fun they had together. So it really has been something that as a family, we, uh, we don’t shy away from talking about her-

Jim: Yeah.

Jen: … or what she would’ve loved or, um, what she would’ve found funny. Um, and there’s so much that she found funny. Um, and, and for my husband and I, the same thing. We, we talk about her all the time. And, um, I think it’s so important. My, my husband lost his father, so he understood, um, what it is to lose a parent. And so he has been such a delightful support in, um, in being there for me in all of the ways that I need him to be. So yeah, it’s only brought us closer.

Jim: No, that’s good. You mentioned this, but I do wanna come back to it and end here, because I think the scripture, we need that context. But in John 16:22, the Lord says, “You have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice-”

John: Mm.

Jim: “… and no one will take your joy from you.”

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that was in the context of your mom saying, “I’ll see you at the gate.”

Jen: Yes. Yes.

Jim: What a great thought.

Jen: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And even on one, uh, really hard phone call that we were having, and I was just falling apart and telling her how much I was going to miss her, um, she got very determined and she said, “I need you to remember these words. We will see each other again.” And I think back to that, and, and I know that, um, that to be true. I know that to be true, and that’s the hope that we have, um, that our spirits never die. We simply change addresses, as that one grandmother said. And so I think if we can hold true to that, that, um, yes, mourning comes for a period, but joy comes in the morning, it, we will have that time of bliss with God and Jesus and all of our loved ones. And, and that’s what, what gets us all through.

Jim: And I’m about to jump out of my chair going, “Yahoo!” (laughs)

Jen: (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Jim: I mean, it’s so true. This is what we believe, and this is why this has been so good. Not easy, but you’ve done it in such a great way, Jen, in your book, Disrupted: Finding Peace with a Parent’s Terminal Illness. What a great resource to help people process what they’re going through. I often say it’s like seeing a car accident. You, you’re not sure if this is really happening to us.

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But it is. And, you know, things are gonna happen, and it’s a great guide-

Jen: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … for people to go through the loss of a parent in the right spiritual way, with the right spiritual compass.

Jen: Mm.

Jim: So thanks again for being with us. It’s been really good.

Jen: Thank you for having me.

Jim: Yeah. And if you’re in that spot or you have a loved one in that spot, this is a great resource. Here’s how we can help each other. Send a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family, and we’ll send you Jen’s book as our way of saying thanks for partnering with us in ministry.

We can also connect you with one of our caring Christian counselors, if that’s helpful. Grief is not an easy thing to navigate by yourself, and we’re here to help you any way we can.

John: Yeah, that’s our heart. And, uh, your donation allows us to, uh, have great impact. Here’s a comment from a listener named Richard who said, “Focus on the Family has been such a guiding light in my life. There have been seasons when I felt overwhelmed, alone, or unsure of the path ahead, and it was through this ministry that I began to see God’s love and guidance in real practical ways.”

Jim: Yeah, that’s what ministry’s all about. Share in the harvest. I hope you’ll join our support team so we can reach many more Richards in the days ahead.

John: Call 1-800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. Or of course, you can donate and get a copy of Jen’s book, Disrupted, and ask to speak with one of our counselors at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And when you get in touch, ask about our Remembering the Hope of Heaven audio collection, which can provide a lot of comfort and hope to those who are facing end-of-life situations.

Jim: It certainly can, John. And if you’ve ever had questions about heaven, I wanna strongly recommend you get this valuable collection. We’ve got wonderful messages from John Burke, Lee Strobel, Randy Alcorn, and others that will inspire and strengthen your faith, and it’s all absolutely free.

John: Learn more at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.