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Greta Eskridge: We need to talk to our kids ideally before they’re exposed, so that they have those tools and they know what to do. They know how to respond.
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John Fuller: That’s Greta Eskridge and she’s with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to talk about how to protect your child’s heart and mind. Uh, thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller, and parents, this is a sensitive topic and it’s not gonna be suitable for younger listeners.
Jim Daly: You know, so often when we talk about this subject of sexuality, uh, there’s kind of two camps that emerge. One is, it’s good that we talk about it as Christians. God created this in the context of marriage, the gift of intimacy. And then that other camp that is very uncomfortable. And I get that, you know, this isn’t something really you want to talk about publicly, but we need to because the world certainly is, and it’s bombarding us all the time. If you don’t think so, just take a ride through Las Vegas sometime, and the billboards are all over the place. In fact, Jean says, “I do not ever want to take the kids through Vegas.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that’s just, you know, that’s just something we decided as a family, ’cause it’s just hard to combat that right in your face.
John: Yeah.
Jim: And to explain it to your eight, nine-year-old sons, what they’re seeing. And, uh, you know, we all have to approach this in a variety of ways, but hopefully biblically, to lift up that gift that God gives us.
John: Mm.
Jim: Really, you don’t want your kids going into adulthood fearing sexuality. They need to know a God-given understanding of what He has created. It’s a great gift in the context of marriage.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we have, as I said, Greta Eskridge here. She’s a homeschooling mom of four and host of the very popular Greta Eskridge Podcast. Uh, she’s written a number of books and, uh, the one that kind of forms the foundation for today’s conversation is It’s Time to Talk to Your Kids About Porn: A Parent’s Guide to Helping Children and Teens Develop Sexual Integrity. And you can learn more about Greta and this terrific resource at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Greta, welcome back. It’s been a while.
Greta: Yeah. I’m so glad to be here again.
Jim: Yeah, (laughs) I mean it’s, you know, it’s not always the best topic, perhaps, uh, but I think it’s a critically, maybe the most important topic as a parent. ‘Cause this is the thing that just jumps out at you. You were a high school teacher, (laughs) so you must have encountered this like every day, every week, where kids were, you know, the, the joking about it and the teasing. And, you know, high school students are kind of coming alive physically at that point and, you know, all the stuff that goes on. One thing that you mention in the book, you had a student that, uh, brought something to school and it caught your eye and you had to deal with it. Describe what happened.
Greta: Yeah, I was a really young teacher in my early 20s, and so it was a while ago, and that meant it wasn’t on a phone, it was actually a picture in his binder. And it was ninth grader, so he was, you know, 13, 14 years old. And it was a really inappropriate picture, demeaning to women, objectifying. And, um, I just saw it and I was kind of aghast. It was my first real interaction with something that was pornographic in nature. And I didn’t really know what to do, but I felt like I had to address it. And so I called him into the hall and I asked him about it, and he was kind of taken aback by my questions. But really what I wanted to do was to help him see that this was not, uh, respectful to the other girls in the class, to me. Um, and what it was doing to him and how he looked at women.
Jim: When you did that, it, it, the way you described in the book, it looked like it caught his attention.
Greta: Yeah.
Jim: Like he had not thought of it that way, which is actually, you know, it’s a good response.
Greta: Yeah.
Jim: You know, on the one hand, if you’re probably a little more evil in that intent, it would bounce off you. But the fact that he had not thought about it and the fact, you know, that it was demeaning, is actually a good thing. Do you feel like over the course of that school year, did you ever talk to him again? Or did, did you see a change in him?
Greta: He was definitely embarrassed and uncomfortable, but also, like you said, it caught his attention. Because I don’t think anyone, he even said to me, no one had ever talked to him about this kind of stuff.
Jim: Boom.
Greta: And so what I said to him was, my hope was that he would grow up into a man that respected and honored women. And looking at photos like that, or images like that, wouldn’t help him in that journey. And so, through the course of the school year, we didn’t really have that conversation again. But my hope was that I planted a seed in his heart.
Jim: Yeah. What a great thing. I wish, and, you know, my boys had a teacher like that that would say, “Hey, I noticed something.” That’d be awesome.
Greta: Yeah.
Jim: ‘Cause that’s augmenting your parenting, right? And-
Greta: Yeah, I wasn’t a parent yet.
Jim: Yeah. But I mean-
Greta: But I was on-
Jim: I mean, the parent of that boy.
Greta: Yeah, for sure.
Jim: You know, helping in that way. Uh, when you became a parent, actually your, your goal there was to, as you said in the book, to porn-proof your children.
Greta: Yeah.
Jim: I get that. I think the distinction here with mom and dad, it doesn’t always run this way. So I, I want be careful to be stereotypical, but oftentimes, mom has great fear, rightfully so, about her sons and sometimes daughters stumbling into pornography. Um, dads may have a little different, uh, attitude toward it, but hopefully a serious one to say, “Okay, we gotta start to deal with this.” But go back to that time when, when you’re thinking about your own children and you’re thinking about porn-proofing, and what did it lead to?
Greta: Well, that desire to make sure that they never saw pornography came out of my own, you know, hurt and trauma from experiencing pornography impacting my marriage. So I think that that is an important thing to understand, that many of us who really fear and um, despise pornography a lot of times, that, that comes because we’ve experienced hurt from it ourselves in some way. And so that sort of drove me to this idea was, “I will porn-proof these kids, they will never grow up and deal with this in their marriage or, you know, hurt their spouses.” But what I learned was, that’s actually not possible. Porn-proofing isn’t possible because as we were saying earlier, it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when our kids are exposed to pornography. So what my husband Aaron and I decided was, how could we give our kids tools to deal with the inevitable? And instead of saying, we’ll porn-proof them, how could we give them tools to handle it in a better way than we were given?
Jim: Yeah. It’s so good. And that, again, in your book, you have plenty of examples of how to do that well. Focus on the Family has recommendations on different, uh, filters you could use. And, you know, we’re in on all of that and, uh, it is helpful but not foolproof.
Greta: Yeah.
Jim: So go in knowing that. Uh, in your book you give parents scripts to discuss pornography. This might be the most helpful thing because again, it’s such a clumsy topic. We have “the talk,” and we even call it “the talk.” You’re suggesting this is like hundreds of mini talks. You don’t save it for one big weekend.
Greta: Yeah.
Jim: But be, uh, drip irrigating your child for building the right, um, mentality in that child for when they come across it and how to manage it. Um, what is your script for that first conversation? I mean, the first time that something sparks and talking to so many parents as you have, what is the typical first conversation prompted by?
Greta: Mm. Well, I believe it actually should be prompted by not the kids’ first exposure, but we want to talk to them before exposure.
Jim: Mm.
Greta: And right now, the average age of exposure is somewhere between the ages of eight and 11.
Jim: Yeah.
Greta: So that means we need to talk to our kids ideally before they’re exposed, so that they have those tools and they know what to do. They know how to respond. And what I always encourage parents to say is something really straightforward and very short. The least amount of information to keep them the most safe.
Jim: Yeah.
Greta: So, for example, it would sound something like this: “Hey sweetheart, buddy,” because we need to talk to boys and girls, “I need to tell you about something called pornography. Pornography is pictures or movies of people who have no clothes on. The part of their body that would normally be covered by a swimsuit is showing. And we know we don’t look at those parts of other people’s bodies. Other people don’t look at those parts of our bodies. So if you ever see pictures or movies like that on a screen, um, while you’re playing a game on your tablet, on someone else’s phone or computer, I want you to stop, walk away from that thing that you’re seeing that screen, and then come find me or daddy, grandma, grandpa, someone safe, and just tell us, ‘I think I saw pornography. Will you help me?’” And that opens up the doors for communications. It gives them exactly what to do, how to respond, like physical actions to get away from the thing, and then come to you and talk about it.
Jim: Yeah. It’s good.
John: Yeah. And I so appreciate this. I wish I had had this kind of knowledge back when we were raising our kids ’cause I didn’t get ahead of it. And, uh, there was one day, Jim, we talked about this off here, where there was one day we came home from a date and the front door was locked and it was sort of like, well, the deadbolt is locked even. What’s that about? And uh, we came in and one of my daughters was at the computer. It was in the family room. It had filters. We thought we were safe. Um, but we didn’t have the currency that we had needed at the time to have a good communication, uh, plan with her. So that was a really awkward moment and we kind of fumbled our way through. So you’re saying get ahead of this.
Greta: Mm-hmm.
John: And have the conversation early and don’t rely on all the filters, which are good, but, um, your kids are gonna be exposed. Be intentional about how you talk with them, how do, and this is boys and girls, right?
Greta: Yeah.
John: I mean, it, it’s not, I think as we were early parents, we weren’t thinking that our daughters might be exposed.
Greta: Mm-hmm.
John: It’s pretty prevalent among girls.
Greta: Yeah. The number of girls who are using pornography is growing rapidly, and the pornography industry is fully aware that they’ve been missing out on, uh, a whole group of customers.
John: Mm.
Greta: And so they’re pursuing like in a predatory way, girls as well as boys. And so as parents, we need to talk to all of the kids about pornography.
Jim: You know… Yeah. And as a parent, one of the things is these, this topic particularly doesn’t bubble up. And so some parents can falsely believe that, “Oh, if it’s not an issue, if they’re not saying anything about it, then they haven’t been exposed and I don’t need to say anything. It’s awkward. I really don’t enjoy talking about that.” Um, I think one of the other key takeaways when I read your book, it, it really was around that idea that, don’t punish them for being honest.
Greta: Yeah.
Jim: You know, encourage them to come to you, like you said a moment ago, if you see these things, you know, come and talk to a safe adult, mom, dad, grandparents, what have you, and make sure that in that response you’re not shaming them and it actually creates a barrier for them to come talk to you. That can be hard for, for many parents and moms particularly, I think, to not react emotionally about that. And I mean, I don’t have any kind of metric on that, but I think it’s a high percentage that will react emotionally. And you’ve really got one shot at making sure this is handled well. And coach us in how to make sure that first response is one that is open, honest, loving, kind, and encouraging of remaining open as your 8, 9, 10-year-old becomes 13, 14, 15.
Greta: I always encourage moms actually, and dads, to pray in advance of this event, that the Lord and the Holy Spirit would fill them with His fruit of the Spirit. That they would be able to exhibit gentleness and kindness and patience. And in that moment where there’s gonna be a lot of other feelings stirred up, fear, pain, maybe even anger or disappointment, all of those things are there. But if we can pray and ask the Holy Spirit, “Please fill me in this moment to respond with grace and compassion when our kid is hurting.”
John: Mm-hmm.
Greta: “Then that can be a total game-changer. So that our child isn’t filled with shame or fear. And then we can use phrases like, ‘I wanna help you. There is hope, there is healing. This is not good for you. It’s hurting you, it’s hurting others. How can we help you step away from it?’ That’s what I wanna do.”
Jim: And for a parent to de-escalate their own emotion around this.
Greta: Yes.
Jim: Which is really hard.
Greta: It is.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And today Greta Eskridge is here talking, uh, about a difficult subject. But one we have to get ahead of is your hearing. And uh, we want to equip you to have those discussions with your children. Get a copy of Greta’s book, It’s Time to Talk to Your Kids About Porn: A Parent’s Guide to Helping Children and Teens Develop Sexual Integrity. A lot of great info here. And, uh, we have that at the ministry. Uh, you can stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to get your copy.
Jim: You know, Greta, I appreciated your vulnerability and honesty in the book. And you know, when you got married, you came from a Christian home, and that, it sounds like it wasn’t talked about much and it came with a bit of embarrassment, maybe a little uneasiness as you got married and all those things. But creating a wonderful, healthy environment is the goal.
Greta: Yeah.
Jim: How do we do that?
Greta: Well, I think you model it really well by starting conversations with our kids when they’re young and helping them understand that every part of their body is made by God. They’re made in His image. Every part of their body is designed for a purpose, therefore nothing about them is bad on their body. Right? God created them. And beginning with that foundation, I think helps the conversations continue so that as they grow up and you get to puberty or you get to, you have your first boyfriend or girlfriend, you’re ready to get married, there’s this context of yes, God’s design for your body is to one day to be intimate with your husband or your wife. And it is an incredible thing. And nothing about it is shameful or bad. And that begins just when your kids little, openly talking about that in a non-embarrassing, non-shameful way. Always pointing them back to the Creator.
John: Mm.
Jim: Yeah. I just, I really want my boys to walk away and walk into marriage, walk away meaning when they, you know, leave the home and they’re developing their 20-something life and they get married, to be able to go into that with confidence.
Greta: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That this is the good thing of God.
Greta: I agree.
Jim: And, uh, to help their spouses understand that as well. Um, you talk about something, I really want to spend a little bit of time on the porn plan and you know, I always, I’m always uncomfortable just saying the word porn.
Greta: I know.
Jim: Because it’s so slangy.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know, I tend to prefer pornography. It’s kinda like a medical thing, right? But the porn plan, just for the abbreviation, what is that and how do you apply it?
Greta: Um, I always, that always catches people’s attention ’cause they’re like, (laughs) “Whoa, that’s a weird title.”
Jim: Right. I don’t wanna have a porn plan.
Greta: Right? Weird thing. I mean, we don’t want to, but we need to.
Jim: Yeah.
Greta: So the porn plan is really just equipping your kids with those tools. It’s that, like that first conversation I modeled earlier, that when your child sees pornography, they know what to do and they know to walk away and they know to talk to you. That is the most important part.
Jim: Yeah. That’s awesome.
John: And this is a reality for you. I mean, one of your kids actually had this plan and uh, it kind of got activated after they were at a friend’s house, right?
Jim: (Laughs)
Greta: Yeah. They, um, it was one of my kids was watching actually the Super Bowl halftime show.
Jim: Ah.
Greta: So it wasn’t even like, like full-blown pornography, but it was definitely, I would say soft porn. And-
Jim: Yeah. That’s Las Vegas billboard.
Greta: Yes.
Jim: Same thing.
Greta: And this kid knew what to do and, and even more than knowing what to do in this situation, to remove themselves as much as possible, but then to talk about it afterwards, was so powerful because then I could step into the role of, “You did not do anything bad. This is not your fault and I wanna help you.” And then we’re gonna talk about it with the other siblings too, so they can engage in knowing what to do if it happens to them.
John: And this was in response to a Super Bowl halftime performance, I think?
Greta: Yes. Yeah.
John: Which was very suggestive.
Greta: Yes.
John: And your child didn’t stay in the room, right?
Greta: Yeah.
John: I mean, they-
Greta: Um, walked out, went into the kitchen to get a snack, went into the bathroom, went outside. Just trying-
Jim: She was kind of going by your-
Greta: Yeah. Trying-
Jim: By your order.
Greta: Trying to find places.
Jim: Yeah.
Greta: To be away from that screen.
John: Yeah. I’m just thinking that’s so awkward for a child in that moment.
Greta: Yeah.
Jim: That’s that’s character though.
John: Yeah.
Jim: That’s really good in that, how old was she at the time?
Greta: Like 11.
Jim: Yeah. That’s, boy, you get your kids doing that. That’s wonderful.
Greta: Yeah. And I think that, that, again, that comes from this training, having the plan of what to do. And that’s not just for our little kids. Like teenagers also need to know that they don’t have to look at pornography. And that is the cultural norm that, that many teenagers tell me that everybody looks at pornography, everybody uses it. Everybody, um, engages with it. But they need to know they don’t have to. And when we give them this plan of what to do to walk away, that is so helpful for them.
Jim: Yeah. Um, you give parents three steps, and again, we’re coming back to this, but I want that concrete thing for you, the viewer and the listener, ’cause you’re going, “Okay, this is really good. I’ve got an eight-year-old right now. I’m beginning to panic.” Uh, but you give parents three steps to walk through, uh, that moment when they discover their child has looked at porn. I wanna be very instructive here, uh, because this might be the one time that we’re connecting with the parents. Uh, walk us through those steps and give us the script that you’ve created in the book to help a parent get through that initial moment.
Greta: Well, if your child comes to you and tells you they’ve seen porn, then the first thing you can do is just really affirm the fact that they told you, that they came to you. So with affirmation, “Thank you for telling me, I’m so glad you told me what has happened.” And then say, “I’m so sorry for what you’ve seen. You might be feeling scared or, you know, uncomfortable with what you’ve seen. I wanna help you.” And then lastly, like to come to them if they will let you, you know, touch them, hold them, give them a hug. That also is so important in that moment, because you are showing them that there has not been a break in your relationship. You want to connect with them. And in that moment, of course you offer help. “We don’t want you to look at this again. This is not good for you. I wanna help you move forward.”
Jim: Yeah.
Greta: And if you can do those things, it’s so helpful for, again, establishing that foundation of connection, not broken relationship, no shame. And moving beyond this.
Jim: I remember a conversation I had, and I, you know, don’t want to embarrass either of my sons, but it happened. And I remember talking with him about being on the team. He was in sports at the time, so that was a metaphor he could relate to. So I was just saying, “You know, you’re, you’re no longer in the bullpen. You’re out on the field, you’re playing with the big, the big boys now. And the enemy is gonna be after you. And this will be a battle that you’re gonna have. And you gotta decide whose team you’re gonna play for, God’s team or Satan’s team.”
John: Mm.
Jim: “And he’s got a way of twisting this good gift that God has given. But you gotta figure out what team you’re on. And then every day, ask the Lord for the ability, the strength to be able to combat this normal desire. But to put it in the right context.” I think that was helpful for him.
Greta: Yeah.
Jim: And we still talk about that talk. It was 10, 12 years ago, but I think you just have to find ways to connect with your child. Lemme go back to a couple of other data points. I think Barna has come out with research, uh, updated research that shows that over half of the folks in church are looking at pornography on a regular basis. So when you have those high percentages at work within us as the body of Christ, uh, it can handicap parents from really having a healthy attitude towards sexuality God’s designed for because they’re not healthy. So don’t be a hypocrite. Don’t try to secretly do this and then try to be something else to your children. But again, you mentioned your marriage and what happened with you and Aaron in that regard. Speak to that need to walk it in a way so your kids know-
Greta: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That you’re solid yourself.
Greta: Yeah. I, I think there’s two really important points there. One, yes, our kids know that we are, um, pursuing the right path, but also they can know if we’re honest with them about mistakes in our past, that when they mess up, they can come to us. And if we instead hide, uh, our stories and we’re not honest, then there could be this feeling like, “Well, I could never tell my mom and dad because they would never understand.”
Jim: Yeah.
Greta: And I share that because I think it’s really important for parents who have walked a journey that they wish they hadn’t been on, that God can use every part of our story. He doesn’t waste anything. And that is empowering to know that even if you’re struggling right now, if you’re part of that statistic, God can change your life and then use that to change the lives of the rest of your family. There’s, uh, I love the quote from, um, Betsie ten Boom, she said, “There’s no pit so deep that God’s love is not deeper still.” And I think that applies to this conversation, ’cause pornography can be a very deep pit that we feel we could never get out of, but God’s love is bigger than that.
Jim: Well, another, another data point. They say pornography is more addictive than cocaine. How about that one? So if you’re there, get ahold of us, get help, we’re here for you. And hopefully we can even suggest some local, uh, counseling that will be able to help you through that. And we’ll definitely provide you with a free consultation and, and at least begin to address some of those issues. Um, lastly, you say God gave you compassion in this topic, especially in your own marriage and helping Aaron to heal, your husband. I specifically want you to speak to that woman where this is the dagger in their heart. And maybe they had issues as a teen girl. Maybe abuse has occurred. There’s something there that created a deep-rooted fear in this area. And then here it comes. Your own son or your own daughter, uh, is being pulled into this. It could be the biggest betrayal that, a mom particularly, but also dads, the biggest betrayal that they can experience in life. And they’ve done everything.
Greta: Mm.
Jim: They’ve put the filters on, they’ve done the drip irrigation talks, they’ve done everything they can do. And Lord, why would you allow this to happen to my son, to my daughter? And, poof, we’re off to the races now, emotionally. Speak to that mom and you know, what do I do to get a better sense of how to go forward?
Greta: Well, I would say number one, you’re, you’re hurt. And the, the sadness and the pain, all of those things that you’re feeling are absolutely understandable. And, um, it is a deep wound. And, um, it, it can feel like betrayal again, especially if you’ve already experienced that, like, you know, from another person who’s betrayed you in this area. And so those feelings are real. Um, but I would offer hope, like for my own story, I never wanted to be the lady that talked about pornography (laughs) I never wanted to write a book about pornography.
Jim: You’re the school teacher!
Greta: Um, (laughs) yeah, I’m, I’m a mom. I’m a homeschool mom. I love books. I love hiking and, you know, having fun. Um, and this is not a fun topic. But God can, like I said earlier, God doesn’t waste a thing. He can use your story, your pain to not only transform your life, um, which is the case for Aaron and I in our marriage and now with our kids, but also you don’t know how He’ll use it to help others. And so we can trust Him with our pain. We can say, “This hurts so much, I wish it never happened. God, will you use our story for good?”
Jim: Yes.
Greta: And He will.
Jim: I mean, we have the same thing. We should lean into God, unashamed, not feel guilty as mom that I tried and I failed. I mean, that can happen too.
Greta: Yes.
Jim: Right? That sense of guilt that I built all the fences and it didn’t work. But, uh, what a great resource Greta. Thank you for coming on and talking about that difficult, uh, topic as we have today. But if you’re in that spot, if you have, um, you know, single digit age kids, 8, 9, 10, the time is now for you to get a copy of Greta’s book, It’s Time to Talk to Your Kids About Porn. Uh, do that in such a way that you help the ministry here. If you can make a gift of any amount, $10, we’ll send you the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. If you could do it monthly, that really helps.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Jean and I support Focus that way. You and Dena do the same.
John: We do as well.
Jim: And, uh, that way we can do ministry together, saving marriages, helping parents, saving a baby’s life, helping, uh, foster care, adoption, all kinds of things. And, uh, you also get a wonderful resource to help your parenting journey be the best it can be.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Join the support team today with a donation of any amount. Uh, when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to make your donation and get a copy of this book. And Jim mentioned, uh, counseling just a moment ago. Uh, we’d be happy to set up a time for a counselor to call you back. We have a terrific team of caring Christian counselors. It’d be a privilege for us to work with you and to have that free consultation. Uh, you just need to call us 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And join us next time as we hear from Dr. Gary Chapman, who will explain why forgiveness is essential to having a good relationship.
Dr. Gary Chapman: We don’t have to be perfect to have good marriages. We do have to deal with our failure. We do have to keep the walls torn down.
John: On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
