Tilly Dillehay: This isn’t just, you know, an acquaintance where I’m thinking of going up to them and saying, “Hi. Do you remember my name? By the way, I’ve been hating your guts for two years or something like that.”
Jim Daly: Right. I mean, these are your two sisters.
Tilly: These are people that I – I want to continue a relationship with them. And in order to do that, I knew the only way through was to confess this sin to them.
End of Excerpt
John Fuller: That’s Tilly Dillehay. And she’s with us today on Focus on the Family. Your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.
Jim: John, I want to start today, uh, with Scripture right there in Galatians. This has always been intriguing to me. I think, as believers – and I know not everyone listening knows or has a relationship with Christ, and I acknowledge that. But right there in Galatians, it says, “The fruit of the spirit”. And that – what that means is, for those of us who are rooted in Christ, this should be our attitude. The fruit of the spirit. It’s love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Then it goes on to say, “Against such things, there is no law.” Isn’t that amazing? Uh, but when that person cuts you off on the highway, how much gentleness and self-control…
Jim: …Do we demonstrate…
Jim: …In that? That’s always my weakness. The Lord’s working on me. I’m trying to pray for those people now.
The point of this is what’s always captivated my attention is a little before that reference of the fruit of the spirit, the Scripture says this in Galatians, “Now the works of the flesh are evident – sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife” – now, here’s where it gets tough – “jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” And I’m always telling myself – and I would, you know, gently say you should do the same. Keep an eye on that list in your own life because those are the things God wants us to not do…
John: Mmm hmm.
Jim: …Very straightforwardly. And today, we’re gonna talk with Tilly, who really puts it out there about her battle with envy. And I think all of us will, um, benefit and be able to look into our own hearts about where we might be slipping a bit in that area of jealousy and envy.
John: Yeah. And Tilly is a pastor’s wife and a mom of three young kids and is the author of the book, Seeing Green: Don’t Let Envy Color Your Joy, which, of course, we have at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Tilly, welcome to Focus on the Family.
Tilly: Thank you for having me. It’s good to be here.
Jim: I’m really looking forward to this because this is where we grow, um, when we can have someone who’s courageous like you – written a book about your shortcomings (laughter)…
Jim: …Which I so appreciate because we all connect with it in some way. Um, it might be something different from envy that we struggle with. But that list that I read a moment ago is pretty comprehensive.
Tilly: Mmm hmm.
Jim: Let me play a little music, and then I’m gonna pop a question your direction. Let’s listen to this music now.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, JOLLY ROBBER)
The Vespers: (Singing) Jolly robber, I am here for you. Jolly robber, I have been there too.
Jim: So that music is very happy music.
Jim: Um, I think a relative of yours is somewhere in there…
Jim: …Maybe more than one.
Jim: Why did that happy music make you so sad and angry?
Tilly: Well, um, I had never heard that happy music until one night when I was a sophomore in college, and I went to hear my two sisters play a gig together. And the reason I’d never heard it before is ’cause they had never played it, even for their family members. They were so, um, just secretive while they were kind of developing their music and their talent. And then one night, we all went to hear them. And so, for the first time, I sat there in the back of the room and heard songs they had written. They were playing instruments that I had never heard them play. They were singing harmonies I’d never heard before. And it was unbelievable. I mean, it was just shocking to see how good this music was that had arisen. So…
Jim: But that reaction for you was one of envy. It
Jim: …Kind of cemented a long journey for you about your standard and their standard and their ability and your lack of ability. Set that up for us and why it penetrated so deeply into your heart ’cause some people are gonna say, “Ah, so what? My sibling’s good.”
Jim: But it really impacted you.
Tilly: It did. And it – it impacted me because I had aspirations to be in the same field. That’s the reason why it impacted me.
Jim: So you have a musical family.
Tilly: Yeah, that’s right.
Jim: Your dad was a musician.
Tilly: My dad was CCM artist, actually. Morgan Cryar was his name. In the ’80s and ’90s, he was a CCM artist. And, um, so we all grew up around the music. And I really loved jazz music. I put out a – a CD of jazz covered tunes when I was 16 or so. And so this was a few years after that, and…
Tilly: …That is when this music kind of came into my knowledge. And I just remember. I remember the pain of watching them and the pain that I kept feeling as I watched their music grow and as their careers developed…
Tilly: …How much, every time I had to listen to them live or get a new CD in my hands, I just – I didn’t even want to witness it.
Jim: Or listen to it or anything.
Tilly: Or listen to it – yeah.
Jim: You just put it away, and…
Tilly: That’s right.
Jim: Tell me, before this happened – I mean, because this is a very specific event in your life.
Tilly: Mmm hmm.
Jim: You said, “When I was a sophomore in college…”
Jim: “…This happened.”
Tilly: Yeah, yeah.
Jim: So it – it’s poignant. It’s like, did – where were you at this moment? You can recall it.
Let’s define it. I mean…
Jim: …Some people might struggle. I was thinking to myself, I don’t think this is an area for me that I struggle in.
Jim: I mean, I kind of think to myself, wow, OK. That’s great that person achieved this or received this or has this.
Jim: I’ve never really struggled with that. And some of our listeners will be in that spot. They don’t get…
Tilly: Yeah. What is that?
Jim: …Envy. Yeah.
Tilly: What are you talking about?
Jim: Yeah. It’s just not a thing for me.
Jim: Um, there are certainly could be other things, everybody. Don’t get me wrong. But – but we’re all working on something.
Jim: And for those that may not quite understand what envy and jealousy really feels like, describe it for us.
Tilly: OK. So envy is a feeling of discomfort and displeasure at the success or happiness of other people. Envy is unhappy because someone else is happy.
Jim: Yeah. When you look at that in the context of culture today – I mean, social media…
Jim: I mean, we’re comparing everything on Pinterest. And we always joke about the perfect birthday for your 5-year-old.
Tilly: Mmm hmm.
Jim: I mean, why – why is the human spirit so easily led down this path of envy?
Tilly: I know. I think envy is as old as people have been. Um, I mean, envy motivated the first murder on record…
Tilly: …Between the brothers. Um, and I do think that it’s a hard time for envy right now with social media. You know, it makes it…
Jim: It’s like it’s exploiting it.
Tilly: It is. It is. It does exploit envy, I think, to a certain extent. And, um – and it makes it hard because you spend a lot of your time in private looking at other people’s public lives. And it’s their very best.
Tilly: And so you’re not even dealing with real people anymore. You’re dealing with a facade that other people put forth.
Jim: And it’s typical. We compare that best to our weakest moment…
Tilly: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Jim: …Typically because we’re not having a good day. But look at Susan.
Tilly: …Is on vacation.
Jim: …Looks great.
Jim: And she’s happy.
Jim: And see, I could see that in the picture.
Tilly: Mmm hmm.
Jim: You say the reason we envy others is because of something you called borrowed glory.
Tilly: Mmm hmm.
Jim: I want to dig into that a bit cause I think this begins to turn a little of that perspective around. What is borrowed glory?
Tilly: Yeah. So around the time that I first diagnosed this relationship issue I had with my sisters that was – that came out of the envy where we – we had been estranged for years over it, um, the word envy kind of first came into my awareness around that time. But also around that time, I read an essay by C.S. Lewis called The Weight Of Glory. And in that essay, he explores personal glory that we long for and that we are going to wear for all eternity. And he connects this glory that is found in God to a glory that is gonna be placed on us by him, uh, in his presence, you know? And I started to think about that glory that people wear, um, as something that begins really now, that you see even in people that you encounter today that you can – you – everyone’s met that person that they walk away from them, and they just – they’re just blown away by that person that they met. You know, there’s just something about them that, uh, made you feel embarrassed or made you feel attracted to them. Or, um, their attributes that people carry because we’re made in the image of God.
Tilly: And we have these attributes that are glorious attributes. So the book is actually structured around seven attributes that are found in people that envy tends to follow.
Jim: Yeah. That’s interesting. We’ll dig into that. Envy, as you say, can manifest in many different ways. And we touched on this in terms of our culture today. But something that really, uh, blew me away out of the book, Seeing Green – your great book – 90% of women, 40% of men, struggle with body envy, you know?
Tilly: Mmm hmm.
Jim: The culture says this is how you should look. Describe that and how dangerous that is.
Tilly: Yeah. That definitely showed up in my personal story as well. I, um – I ended up – I had an eating disorder in, uh, college and afterwards, which just shows you how intensely I wanted to look a certain way and how intensely I compared myself, you know, to other people. It gets very, very, um, kind of violent almost.
Jim: Yeah. Let me – let me connect a dot there…
Jim: …’Cause I never thought about it in that way. But would you say that comparison trap that you were in with your eating disorder, at the core of it was envy?
Tilly: Yeah. I think that would be accurate to say or at least the same. They were related. They were cousins. You know, the envy, the comparison…
Jim: So one was feeding off the other…
Tilly: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: …Back and forth.
Jim: And how – how long a journey was that eating disorder? And how did you get a handle on that?
Tilly: Yeah. It was about five years – five or six years. And I went out to, um, join this church that I’m now at where my husband’s one of the pastors. But I counseled with a Christian counselor there and worked with him. And that was – that was where…
Jim: …You begin to link these things…
Tilly: Yup. That was where the…
Jim: …The behavioral things.
Jim: Well, that’s good. That, again, shows that, you know, having someone to hear your heart and to give you some good biblical guidance. Something we call counseling…
Jim: …Is a good thing.
Jim: Um, another type of envy that you mentioned – this one also so resonated with me – is what you’d call competence envy. You say your struggle with this quickly turned into pride. So what was that about?
Tilly: Yeah. Well, I think, like, with all of the glories, um, when you find someone who’s better than you are in this area, you may be tempted to envy them. But when you feel that you’re doing well in this area, you may be tempted to pride. Um, and so I felt as I was, um, becoming a Christian, I was – my life in general was pretty messy at that time. And so that was a period when I was looking at competence, smooth lives and envying those lives and wishing I could get my mess together, basically. And then, a little while later, I get a job. I get a husband. I get a house.
Tilly: And I start feeling like, I’m doing – you know, doing well, which is just fleshly pride, you know in either place…
Jim: Well, those are good boxes…
Jim: …To check.
Tilly: Yeah. Absolutely. Like…
Tilly: You have a job. It’s a – it’s a blessing from God to be able to do your job well. Competence is a gift from him. Um, but you have to see it that way. You have to see it…
Tilly: …As a gift because that’s what it is.
Jim: Now, in your marriage, I thought a fun story there was something to do with hand towels.
Jim: How did that (laughter) – you know, God uses the most simple things…
Tilly: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: …To get our attention.
Tilly: When you notice – yeah – I noticed…
Jim: So what happened there?
Tilly: (Laughter) Just soon after we got married, I noticed I was kind of condescending to my husband about – he didn’t understand there was a just-for-looks towel.
Tilly: You know, a…
John: A show towel.
Tilly: Yeah, a show towel.
Jim: Wait a second. This is a revelation to me.
Tilly: It’s like – that’s right.
Tilly: It’s a towel that’s not for use.
John: This is the little one hanging up in the bathroom, right?
Jim: OK. But listen.
Tilly: The one that’s made of something real delicate.
Jim: OK. All the guys out there…
John: Yeah, with the moniker as well.
Jim: …Do you not sneak a little…
Tilly: Yeah. Yeah.
Jim: …You know, dry your hands on that…
Jim: …Just-for-show towel when – when she’s not looking?
Jim: Oh. My hands go – you see I’m already confessing my sins.
John: It’s generally the cleanest towel in the room.
Jim: Yeah. But, you know, you can straighten the wrinkle out once you use it.
Tilly: And if it’s not for using, what is it for?
Tilly: I just – you know?
Jim: For show (laughter).
Tilly: For show – I guess you’re right. It’s the just-for-looks towel.
Jim: So what happened? You went after him a little bit?
Tilly: No. I didn’t. I’m not – I’m not really…
Jim: You just noticed it.
Tilly: I just noticed, like…
Tilly: Why would I feel condescending to someone who doesn’t understand something he’d have no reason to know (laughter)?
Jim: Well, there’s an application. Yeah. That’s a fun application. But there’s some serious applications…
Tilly: Yeah, absolutely.
Jim: …Through that as well. And probably, a lot of marriages suffer because of that, right? It’s kind of like these high expectations…
Jim: …That aren’t met. And then it just eats at you…
Jim: …Until there’s an explosion.
Tilly: I don’t know if that’s a husband problem. But it does seem like it’s a wife problem.
Jim: Oh, it – it’s a husband problem in my home.
Jim: I think it’s a people problem.
Tilly: It’s a people problem.
Jim: I mean, you know…
Tilly: I just think of wives, in particular, as having all these sort of unwritten standards and…
Tilly: …Tending to want to hold their husbands to a standard he doesn’t even know – doesn’t know about.
Jim: OK. So a wife listening is going, “Oh, that’s exactly where I’m living.”
Jim: What’s that one great idea to say, “OK. I’m not really concerned about the hand towels now”?
Jim: What piece of advice do you have to say…
Jim: …Let it go?
Tilly: Let it go. I think get some perspective from Scripture and from the Lord on what your job is and what his job is, and it’s not that he conform to your expectations. That’s not what he’s there to do.
Jim: Ah, that’s good.
John: Well, and as somebody who struggles with what you’re talking about, that competence envy, I’ve just – I’ve got to take that to the Lord, as you’re saying.
Tilly: Yes, absolutely.
John: And, uh, I hope our listeners are really hearing your heart. And, uh, I want to encourage you, as a listener, to get a copy of Tilly’s book, Seeing Green: Don’t Let Envy Color Your Joy. Uh, we’ve got that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or call us. Uh, our number is 800, the letter “A” and the word FAMILY.
Jim: Tilly, what does studying Jesus’ life on Earth – what does it teach us about priorities and envy?
Tilly: Well, I think, um, it does help you to see what Jesus thought was valuable enough to work a miracle for. He was willing to come in and restore sight to somebody, for instance. He thought that was an inequality he was ready to go in and rectify by doing a miracle. But can you imagine him coming in and saying, “Sure, I will change the shape of your nose. This is my next miracle because I know that you’re unhappy with the shape of your nose”?
Jim: Right, as if he were a cosmetic surgeon.
Tilly: Exactly, yeah. There’s a huge difference between someone being lame and someone being not, um, good enough at basketball that they can, you know, be a star on the team.
Tilly: And that’s the kind of thing that may help us as we’re looking into the future, the far future – to heaven – in saying, we’re not going to all be identical men and women with the same talents and strengths and faces in heaven, right? But all of those things that are really a result of the fall will be done away with. If you’re unable to walk, you’ll be able to walk. If you’re – you can’t see, you’re gonna be able to see. But you may not have, um…
Jim: The perfect nose (laughter).
Tilly: Or care about – or care about – yeah, the nose that you want right now. So it’s just, you know, that long-term thinking of, what was it Jesus was concerned about?
Jim: You know what that screams to me is the superficiality of us in this world.
Jim: Because those are the things we’re concerned about. I mean, somebody can go their entire life worrying about their weight…
Jim: …And even praying, “Lord, help me to do something.” And it’s important. I mean, there’s – there’s some people that – you know, they’re six, 700 pounds and they’ve got to do something. It’s a very small number of people. And that’s a clinical issue. That’s a life-and-death issue. But for the most part, just going through life always wanting to lose 20 pounds…
Jim: …Is not necessarily a healthy burden – correct?
Tilly: Yeah. And if you knew how many women – and I guess – yeah. I just – um, I don’t know the landscape as far as what men deal with as well, but…
Jim: We want more muscles, always (laughter).
Tilly: You want more muscles, always more muscles. So, you know, a woman, who has this image of a – of a waifish shoulder plane – you know, just these strange things that you get in your mind as, “This is what I would like to look like.” And the amount of energy and time that you could spend lifelong on that is heartbreaking when you think of what else that woman could’ve done with her life.
Jim: But one of the things that’s true is that life is tough. Life sometimes isn’t fair. It’s one of the most common questions that non-Christians ask Christians. If God is so good and so kind and so fair, why do children suffer? Why do people suffer? Why isn’t there greater equality when it comes to competency and material blessings and those kinds of things? It could be the million-dollar question. Why is it not a level playing field?
Jim: How do you answer that question?
Tilly: It has to do with God’s sovereignty, you know? He has a plan for what he’s doing in each life. And it’s not fair. And it’s not fair in the sense that every person is gonna have the same set of cards that they’re playing with in life. And that’s something we know, even if we’re uncomfortable talking about it – that not every child is born with the same opportunities, the same family structure, you know? Um…
Jim: What’s the benefit of suffering?
Tilly: There is a benefit to suffering. And that’s – I think that is part of – of the answer to this question, is that a person who suffers is learning something or can learn something.
Jim: Well it’s allowing you to go one of two directions, right? Either…
Tilly: Into worship or into…
Jim: You move toward God, or you move away from him.
Jim: And it’s, you know, completely understandable. I don’t want to be disingenuous or unfeeling toward a person who is suffering. I mean, as an orphan kid, I felt suffering.
Tilly: Yeah, Yeah
Jim: But you have to make those choices to decide, OK, I’m gonna get up. I’m still gonna love the Lord today. And I’m gonna muddle through this and try to find a better way and a better attitude and all those kinds of things. But people that struggle with that, like you did, for a number of years – I mean, it took you, you said, about 20 years to struggle through this.
Jim: That’s a long journey.
Tilly: It is.
Jim: What are some of those stepping stones to get there? How do you recognize, OK, I don’t wanna be jealous or envious of my sisters anymore? How did that start happening?
Tilly: Well, um, I think one of the first things that you have to do in this is to confess the sin to God. That’s really the first step, is that you have to identify envy and call it for what it is. It’s a sin. And it’s a sin against God first and foremost because you are shaking your fist at him for what he’s ordained, what he’s given or not given. And then the step after that is to learn to start putting on love for the person that you envy. You can do that by praying for them, praying for their success, by praising them to their face, sort of, like, almost a fake it till you make it, you know?
John: Those actions will really start to change your heart, won’t they?
Tilly: They will, though. It’s very difficult to look someone in the eye and say, “I’m praising God for what he’s given you and this talent that he’s given you or this competency or whatever it is,” to praise that thing in them and to do that while still harboring a resentment that it’s there. It’s difficult to do. And then, um, one of the other things I talk about in the book is a little counterintuitive, but, um, putting off envy by putting on diligence – that there is a sense in which, when you know God has given you particular work to do, and you are too busy casting your eyes to the right and the left and looking at what other people are doing, it makes it very difficult to do what he’s given you to do. And on the other hand, when you are putting your hand to the plow and saying, “This is my rowed to hoe. I’m gonna do this to the – you know, to the best of my ability,” it kind of knocks one of the legs out from under envy because you know you’re going to stand for God and be responsible to him for what he’s given you to do. And, um, it takes up your attention. You know, it’s just hard to think about other things.
Jim: It’s a bridling exercise.
Tilly: Mmm hmm.
Jim: Bridling yourself to pull back to the right things and not let yourself go…
Tilly: Taking every…
Jim: …To the dark things.
Tilly: …Every thought captive.
Jim: So how did that happen with your sisters? What went on with that moment?
Tilly: Yeah. Well, in that case, I knew this is someone I’ve been intimate with. I have lost intimacy with them because of this sin. This isn’t just, you know, an acquaintance where I’m thinking of going up to them and saying, “Hi. Do you remember my name? By the way, I’ve been hating your guts for two years or something like that.”
Jim: Right. I mean, these are your two sisters.
Tilly: These are people that I want to continue a relationship with them. And in order to do that, I knew the only way through was to confess this sin to them. ‘Cause there was never any conflict between us. It was only me pulling back because I didn’t want to witness the glory in them. Um, so I went and sat down with them. I showed them – I actually was writing the early chapters of this book. This was five or six years ago that I started thinking about these things and writing about them. And I – they were the first ones to read because I wanted them to understand.
Jim: Did they have a clue?
Tilly: I don’t think they had a clue.
Tilly: I don’t think they would have used the word envy. They knew something was weird. They knew something was up…
Jim: That you were – just pulled away.
Tilly: But they didn’t know what all…
Tilly: …You know, was going into that. So – and it is very painful. It’s very hard to tell someone that you think is superior to you in a way you particularly value – it’s hard to tell them, “I thought you were better than me, and I hated you for it, basically.”
Jim: Is that how you expressed it to them? I’m looking for that moment…
Tilly: I don’t think – yeah, yeah – that moment.
Jim: …When you said, “Listen…”
Jim: “I’ve got something I gotta tell you.”
Tilly: Yeah. It was – it was different with each of them. And, um, it was, “I’m sorry that I have been pulling away from you. I did not like the music. And I did not like watching your music.” And I think that was as clear as I was able to be with them in revealing…
Jim: Yeah. How did they respond?
Tilly: With immediate grace and readiness to get back into that relationship. There was nothing but open arms from them.
Jim: Wow. That’s good.
Tilly: It was wonderful.
Jim: And that’s the healthy outcome.
Tilly: Absolutely. Yeah.
Jim: That’s the way you want it to be. When you were a new Christian, you mention in the book that you struggled to feel God’s approval.
Tilly: Mmm hmm.
Jim: Wow. OK. You know, maybe a half-a-million people just leaned in…
Jim: …And went, “That’s me.”
Tilly: Mmm hmm.
Jim: “I’m always striving to feel God’s approval.” Tell us about the passage of Scripture that taught you how God truly sees us.
Tilly: Well, it was one night. I was listening to a sermon. And as an early Christian, I was heavy – heavy with just trying to fight through all this sin, just feeling like I wasn’t gettin’ anywhere with it, and there was nothing worthy in my life that I could gaze on and get excited about. And, um, the pastor stood and read Revelation 5 – um, the lamb who is slain and all the hosts of heaven standing with this scroll that no one knows how to open the scroll. And the writer is weeping because there’s no one worthy to open the scroll. And I was weeping listening because I felt that – just that, um…
Tilly: …That unworthiness and that desire for something to be worthy, knowing that you’re not worthy. But can something be worthy? And then when the lamb who is slain comes, and he’s worthy to open the scroll, and everyone falls down and worships him and that is just such a clear memory for me of realizing Jesus is something that I can put my eyes and lay my hands on and attach my heart to that is so worthy it spills over onto me.
Tilly: And it changes your life.
Jim: Yeah. And you just need the – your eyes to see. I mean, that’s the point. And, uh, this is so good. And there are people struggling with this. And, you know, again, as I mentioned, not everyone listening is gonna have a relationship with Jesus Christ. That’s the ground floor. That’s where we want people to start if they’re not there yet. And then there’s some that, you know, they’ve been Christians for some period of time. But they haven’t grown maybe in this area where there’s still envy and jealousy, and the Lord wants you to work on those things. You know, the obvious ones are sexual immorality, like I talked about. And many Christians say, “OK. We’ve got that in check.” But gossip and envy and strife – those are the things that come to everybody that we have to deal with and better understand how to manage. And, uh, you have done a wonderful job today. I can’t believe – I mean, you wrote a book about one of your darkest sins, right?
Tilly: It was the only way to deal with it (laughter).
Jim: No. But I so appreciate that. And, um, you know, it takes courage to do that.
Jim: Tilly, thank you so much for that transparency, and, uh, man, just the courage to talk about a weak area and the observation that we have that you’re moving along that path of developing a deeper and deeper relationship with Jesus Christ. I love it. Thank you for being with us. Let me turn to you, the listener. If you’ve never experienced that freedom in Christ because you don’t have a relationship with Jesus Christ, we have something for you. It’s free. You don’t (laughter) need to pay for anything. It’s a PDF download. It’s a booklet called, uh, Coming Home, which explains what it means to become a Christian and how you can have that relationship with Jesus Christ.
John: And tens of thousands have read this booklet and benefited from it. Uh, we want you to see it. It’s at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or if you have questions, call us. Our number is 800, the letter “A” and the word FAMILY.
Jim: Let me also recommend you get a copy of Tilly’s book, what we’ve been talking about today, Seeing Green: Don’t Let Envy Color Your Joy. And, uh, that’s the goal – joy – in this life. Uh, it’s an award-winning book, and it’s easy to see why. It’s the perfect blend of, uh, kind of funny, meaningful and convicting stories. And let me tell you, don’t run from these kind of, uh, muscle-toning, spiritual muscle-toning moments.
John: Mmm hmm.
Jim: I mean, this is where Jesus wants to meet you in that place, so you can strengthen your relationship with him.
In fact, if you could join us as a ministry partner for a gift of any amount or a monthly gift, which is great – it helps us even out the budget – we’ll send you a copy of Tilly’s book as our way of saying thank you for becoming a part of the solution here at Focus on the Family by helping people.
John: And you can, uh, donate and get a copy of that book, Seeing Green, at Focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or when you call 800-A-FAMILY.
Jim: Tilly, thanks again for being with us on Focus on the Family.
Tilly: Thanks for having me. It’s been great.
John: Well, have a great weekend with your family at home and your family at church. And be sure to join us next time on this broadcast as Jonathan McKee shares how to parent tech-savvy children.
Jonathan McKee: Oh, I assure you. When your kid’s 18, when they’re in an Army barracks or they’re in some dorm across the country, they’re not going to call you up and ask you if they can download an app. They’re gonna do it. And the only question you need to ask yourself is, have you prepared them for that day?